Scientology Leader Gave ABC First-Ever Interview

Koppel: Okay. We are going to have to take a break.

Miscavige: Very good.

Koppel: I hope you understand that there's a little bit of a paradox in your saying, you know, "We're not going to get a chance to listen to what Scientology is really about"; we have with us, after all, since you were courteous enough to join us--

Miscavige: Oh, absolutely, I'm just trying-- I'm just trying to correct this, that's all.

Koppel: I understand, and we're going to be spending the rest of this hour, in which I'll have a chance to talk to you and you can clear up some of the misconceptions we have.

Miscavige: Absolutely.

Koppel: Okay?

Miscavige: Okay.

Koppel: We'll continue our discussion in a moment.

("Dianetics," a best-seller for a record 100 consecutive weeks (1986-1988).)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel: I'd like to begin, Mr. Miscavige, with, I guess, the kind of broad question that perhaps folks at home may be asking themselves right now. But let me be the guinea pig for a moment. See if you can explain to me why I would want to be a Scientologist.

Miscavige: Because you care about yourself and life itself. Scientology, the word means study of life, study of knowledge, and that's where it is. It takes up all areas of life itself, things that are integral and maxims that are related to life and very existence. Let me give you an example. It's better if I take that, because it is such a broad-ranging subject covering so many different areas, the subject of communication. This is something that major breakthroughs exist in Scientology, being able to communicate in the world around you. And I think everybody would agree that this is an important subject. Well, there's an actual formula for communication which can be understood. You can drill on this formula of communication, and learn to drill, but moreover, take the person who has trouble communicating, has-- Well, for some reason he can't -- anxiety, whatever.

Koppel: I'll tell you what. Let's stick with me, okay? So far in life I haven't had a whole lot of trouble communicating. Now see if you can communicate to me what it is that you're going to be able to do for me that makes me a better communicator.

Miscavige: Well, I don't-- In Scientology you don't do anything for somebody else. Scientology is something that requires somebody's active participation.

Koppel: Then, fine, I--

Miscavige: It certainly-- Let me explain something--

Koppel: I want to participate, I want to be active completely. We are looking theoretically--

Miscavige: What in your life, Ted? What in your life do you not feel is right, that you would like help?

Koppel: I feel perfectly comfortable with my life. I like my job, I'm happy with my family, I love my wife, I'm healthy. I'm perfectly content, that's why I'm asking you what is it you can do for me.

Miscavige: Well-- Well, number one, I would never try to talk you into that Scientology's for you. You see, that's the funny thing about this, as if I'm now going to give a sales pitch to you on Scientology. Believe me, Scientology's valuable enough that it doesn't require any sales pitch. But let's look at it this way, then, what Scientology does. If you look out across the world today, you could say that if you take a person who's healthy, doing well, like yourself, you'd say that that person is normal, not a crazy, not somebody who's psychotic, you look at a wall and they call it an elephant. Would you agree with me on that?

Koppel: So far I've got no problem.

Miscavige: Okay. And you can see people below that, and crazy people, criminals, that I think society in general will look at and say, "That breed of person hasn't something quite right because they're not up to this level of personality." You can understand that. Well, we in Scientology are not-- You see, all past attempts have been to bring man up to somebody's standard of what's normal. What we are trying to do in Scientology is take somebody from this higher level and move them up to greater ability. You see, we're interested in the--

Koppel: What about those folks "down there"?

Miscavige: Well, yes, no, you wouldn't-- We don't ignore them. But my point is this: Scientology is there to help the able become more able. The guy who's going around, he's working, he's trying to make it, these people generally have something in their life that they would like to improve and, in any event, if you can increase that person's ability, the one who's chipping in, the one who's able, and bring him up higher, this sphere of influence that he affects in the world around him can be much greater, and he can get on and do better.

Koppel: Now, Mr. Miscavige, when you and I talked the first time, a few months ago, I said to you I was going to come after you on some of these issues. I am a cynic, by nature. I guess that's why I like being a reporter. What you have described to me there fits perfectly with the image that I have of Scientology. Namely, you're interested in folks who are producing. Another way of saying that is you're interested in folks who've got money and who can pay to work their way up the Scientology ladder.

Miscavige: Well, you see, that's where you miss the point, because in fact, you know, this subject of money comes up, but you've got the wrong issue there. The subject of money is, where's it going. You see, another part that isn't in that piece, the money in Scientology isn't going to me. It's not going to my colleagues. That's a fact. That's a fact. You can call up the IRS and find that fact out. They've audited our records and seen all of that, and none of that money is going anywhere. As a matter of fact, the officials in the church are paid far less and live far more frugal existences than any other church leader. Our money goes to social causes that we accept. You take these people. We are the largest social reform group in the world, do far more than any other church. For the last two years we have been voted the community outreach group of the year in Los Angeles.

Koppel: By whom?

Miscavige: By the local city council. The senate of California passed a resolution that's for our work with underprivileged children in California. We work on getting drug addicts off drugs. We support Narconon, which is a drug rehabilitation center using the drug rehabilitation technology of L. Ron Hubbard. There are 33 centers around the world. Over 100,000 people have been gotten off drugs. We sponsor educational programs. Several years ago in just-- Wait, in just one instance, we worked with--

Koppel: I don't want to minimize any of that--

Miscavige: But wait--

Koppel: But how does that make your group the-- How did you put it -- that you do more to help?--

Miscavige: Social reforms, helping people.

Koppel: Social reform--

Miscavige: Sure.

Koppel: …than any other group in the world. More than the Catholic Church, more than--

Miscavige: Well, no, more accurately is per size. And when you put it in that rate -- in other words, how big Scientology is compared to any others -- the amount that we do on that subject, there's not even anybody comparable.

Koppel: Okay. We've got to take a break, we'll continue our discussion with David Miscavige in a moment. ("Dianetics," sales worldwide 14.6 million, languages 22)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel: During one of Forrest Sawyer's pieces a moment ago, we heard one of your colleagues talking about psychiatry, right?

Miscavige: Right.

Koppel: You guys are deaf on psychiatry. The criticism that was made was that this is foreign to the United States. He referred to its origin in Nazism and Communism. And that your religion, Scientology, is an "American" religion. Fair enough so far?

Miscavige: Well, American-of-the-mind. Yeah. That's right.

Koppel: What does that do for Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism and all the other isms that also did not--

Miscavige: Oh, I think--

Koppel: …originate in this country?

Miscavige: Well, no, that isn't really the point. The point there is this -- that those people, the Fascists, the Communists, have used psychiatry to further their ends. That's just a fact. I mean, you want to look at the studies that brought about the Holocaust of the Jews, that the Nazis justified killing the Jews, they were done at the Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry in Leipzig, Germany, and that justified the killing of six million people. If you look at the report that even Forrest Sawyer did on mental institutions in Russia -- several months ago he did this -- you saw that that was a tool of the state. That's the point he's making there. But let me tell you what our real problem is. Number one, understand this. Psychiatry, psychology, that comes from the word psyche. Psyche means soul. These people have preempted the field of religion, not just Scientology, every other religion. They right now practice and preach the fact that man is an animal, and I guess that is where philosophically we're at odds with them. But to understand what this war is, this is not something that we started. In fact, 22 days after "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health" came out, the attacks from the American Psychiatric Association started. This was the first popular book on the mind ever in existence, it was running up the best-seller list, it was popular with the people. I have the letter sent out by the man who was in the American Psychiatric Association asking for ad hominum reviews on the subject of Dianetics. These people absolutely felt that we were cutting across their vested interests, and the lengths with which they have gone to destroy Scientology and Dianetics and L. Ron Hubbard is absolutely mind-boggling. They attempted to do so through the 1950s. First they tried to attack L. Ron Hubbard's credibility, then they recruited the American Medical Association and the Food and Drug Administration, and they then proceeded to infiltrate our organization.

Koppel: May I--

Miscavige: No, no, let me finish--

Koppel: May I stop you just for a moment? Because, you know, when you talk about undermining L. Ron Hubbard's credibility -- and again, I have no idea whether that video and the tape that we heard--

Miscavige: Yeah, but why don't touch on that?

Koppel: …that we heard was representative of L. Ron Hubbard. But when I hear about a man talking about having been taken out to the Van Allen space radiation belt of space ships that were essentially the same thing as the DC-8, I've got to tell you, I mean, if we're talking about this man's credibility, that certainly raises some questions in my mind about his credibility.

Miscavige: Okay. Well, let me ask you, have you read any books on Dianetics or Scientology?

Koppel: I've been reading little else over the last two days.

Miscavige: You see, here--

Koppel: I must confess, I'm not a student of--

Miscavige: But you haven't read "Dianetics" or any books on Scientology?

Koppel: You're absolutely right.

Miscavige: Okay, fine. Then that's why you would make a comment like that? I mean, let's not joke around here. That bit that Forrest did there pulled out of context items. And let's not forget something else, by the way. I told Forrest Sawyer -- and I was open about this the whole time, I have been in communication with "Nightline" numerous times -- I said, "Forrest, if something comes up, you want to bring me up an allegation, you confront me it before this so I can do away with this garbage and not have to do it on the program." "Dave, I promise you I'll do it." Numerous calls have been put in to him. I have never heard it from him. I never heard about these. To do that is take anything out of context. Ted, when I talk about--

Koppel: Can you--

Miscavige: No, but let me just give you an analogy.

Koppel: You know that there are going to be a lot of folks out there -- and I'm sure there are a lot of Scientologists, and I don't want to offend anyone who truly believes this -- but there are a lot of people out there who will look at that. You say it was taken out of context. Take a minute, if you would, and see if you can put it into context for us so that it does not sound ridiculous. Because, quite frankly, the way it sounded there, it sounded ridiculous.

Miscavige: Okay. Well, let me tell you-- Let me ask you to do this, then: I want you to take the Catholic Church and take right now and explain to me, to make sense that the Virgin Mary was a virgin, scientifically impossible, unless we're talking about something-- Okay, I'll be like you. I'll be the cynic. If we're talking about artificial insemination, how could that be? If you're talking about going out to heaven, xcept we have a space shuttle going out there, we have the Apollo going out there, you do that. I'm not here--

Koppel: I will--

Miscavige: Wait--

Koppel: I will--

Miscavige: I'm not here to talk--

Koppel: Let me do it, and you're-- You were a Catholic as a child, right?

Miscavige: Yeah.

Koppel: So you know full well that those issues are questions of faith. Are you telling me that what we have heard L. Ron Hubbard say on this broadcast this evening, that they, to Scientologists, are issues of faith? If that's what you tell me, then that's fine.

Miscavige: No, no. As a matter of fact--

Koppel: Then it doesn't have to be explained logically.

(crosstalk)

Miscavige: Talk about the Van Allen Belt or whatever is that, that forms no part of current Scientology, none whatsoever.

Koppel: But what did he mean when he was talking about it?

Miscavige: Well, you know, quite frankly, this tape here, he's talking about the origins of the universe, and I think you're going to find that in any, any, any religion, and I think you can make the same mockery of it. I think it's offensive that you're doing it here, because I don't think you'd do it somewhere else.

Koppel: I'm not mocking it. I'm asking you a question, and you know, you turn it around and ask me about Catholicism. I say we're talking about areas of faith.

Miscavige: Well, it's not even a matter of faith, because Scientology is about you, yourself and what you do. You're bringing up something that isn't part of current Scientology, that isn't something that Scientologists study, that is part of some tape taken from, I have no idea, and asking me about it and asking me to put it in context. That I can't do.

Koppel: All right. So this has nothing to do with your faith today?

Miscavige: If you read any books on Scien-- No. Van Allen Belt? Absolutely not. Nothing.

Koppel: All right. Okay. We're going to continue our discussion in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel: And we're back once again with David Miscavige. I'm going to let you get to the point you want to get to, but I was astonished, during the break you told me you had never heard that tape before, the L. Ron Hubbard tape.

Miscavige: No, I'd never heard that. No. I'm not-- I mean, it may exist here, but I haven't heard it. I mean, I don't know if you understand, there are 6,000 lectures by Mr Hubbard. There are over 20 million words of printed words in Scientology, and all of these have been made available in Scientology, so if it is there, we'll find it. I don't think anything's being hidden, either. I just personally haven't heard that tape, no.

Koppel: Okay. Now, you wanted to get back to the issue of the psychiatrists.

Miscavige: Yes.

Koppel: And let me, if I may, by way of introduction to that, I did not interrupt you before, but you were talking about the use of psychiatry in Nazi Germany, the use of psychiatry in the Soviet Union.

Miscavige: Yes.

Koppel: I would argue, and I think most psychiatrists in this country would argue, that what we're talking about here was the misuse of psychiatry in both those countries.

Miscavige: Well, okay. And if we're talking about the misuse, fine. In any event, I think any use that ends up killing people is a misuse, and I think that's a hell of a record to have. But let me get back to where I was, because it does tie in. You say the misuse, but I don't know if you're aware that there was a plan in 1955 in this country, Ted, to repeat what was done in Russia. There was going to be a Siberia, U.S.A., set up on a million acres in Alaska to send mental patients. They were going to lessen the commitment laws. You could basically get into an argument with somebody and be sent up there. This sounds very odd. Nobody's ever heard about it. That's in no small part thanks to the Church of Scientology. I must say, though, that when that bill was killed in Congress, the war was on with psychiatry where they declared war on us, and I want you to understand something--

Koppel: Let me just ask you to be specific on that. You are talking about a bill having been brought into Congress for the setting aside of a million acres in Alaska--

Miscavige: You got it.

Koppel: …for people--

Miscavige: To send a mental health center.

Koppel: …to send mental health patients? What was-- Who was the sponsor of that bill? What was the bill number? I mean, we'd-- I'm sure we're going to--

(crosstalk)

Miscavige: Well, I have a copy of it, and if you want it I can give it to you. All of these documents--

Koppel: I would. Let me see it.

Miscavige: All of these documents were made available to Forrest. If they're not on here, I don't know why, but I do have them and I will make it available to you.

Koppel: Okay. Now, was that bill ever voted on? Did it ever come out of committee?

Miscavige: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It was a major, major, major flap for the psychiatrists when it got voted down, because then the slogan around the country began, "Siberia USA," and it was really the first time that psychiatry had been denigrated publicly, that they weren't the science that they had been promoting themselves to be. And they took it upon themselves then to start dealing with anybody who would oppose them. They definitely saw Dianetics and Scientology as opposing them, not only in terms of their brutal treatments, such as electric shock and prefrontal lobotomy, which are specific things that we're against, but also for the fact of the people that were going to Dianetics and Scientology and not there. They went to the Food and Drug Administration, they went to the American Medical Association, they arranged an informant to go into our headquarters here in Washington, D.C., and infiltrate the organization over the next five years. I have documents on this, too. They wanted to get somebody in the church to recommend medical treatment, couldn't get them to do it, walk in and say, "I want to be cured medically." People wouldn't do it. They finally went so far as getting the head of the D.C. morals, the moral department of the D.C. police to send his daughter in as an informant, pregnant, to get an abortion, to ask the church to do it, a frame job. The church didn't go for it. They did then raid the church.

Koppel: When you say "they," you're talking about who now?

Miscavige: I am talking-- This is the APA, AMA, Food and Drug Administration. These people were all coordinated doing these activities, and it went on for five years, Ted, and you have to understand, we only find this out recently. They then proceed to raid our church. Now, the following takes place. They killed one of our executive directors. They literally murdered-- The Food and Drug Administration hired an informant to go into our organization in Seattle, Wash., his wife was there. He wasn't for Scientology, she was. They said, "Great, report on her and report on Scientology." He proceeded to do so. Several weeks later, murdered the head of our organization. The Food and Drug Administration never told us that it was their informant. Instead -- wait -- instead, they got with the D.C.-- I mean, with the Seattle Police, and went undercover in the organization on the homicide investigation to rifle our files. At that same time -- and here's where the media comes in -- a man interviewed L. Ron Hubbard for The Saturday Evening Post. He came out with an unbelievably bad article in that magazine. Of course, Scientology said, "You're part of this Food and Drug Administration thing," and of course, he said, "Oh, excuse me, you just sound like the fringe," which is very easy to say. What do I find out 20 years later through the Freedom of Information Act? I find out that this man, a man named James Phelan, had been, well, The Saturday Evening Post had been written to by the Food and Drug Administration to get a discrediting article written on Mr. Hubbard and Scientology to help their case against us, that this man then went and interviewed Mr. Hubbard. He interviewed him for two days. Mr. Hubbard provided him with tapes and transcripts. The man came back here to the United States. Mr. Hubbard was in England and provided those transcripts to the Food and Drug Administration for their case a full week before he ever wrote his article.

Koppel: We have got to take another break. We'll continue our discussion in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel: Mr. Miscavige, I must admit, I'm curious. You have been the head of the Church of Scientology now for what, a little over 10 years?

Miscavige: Not really the head there, but certainly a senior Scientologist, yes, Ted.

Koppel: Okay. During all that time -- you just told me again, earlier this evening -- you have not done any interviews.

Miscavige: No.

Koppel: (A), Tell me why. And (B), why now?