Koppel: Could you, just on the most basic level -- I mean, you say originally it was done without the E-meter anyway -- could you, on the most basic level, do it with me right now?
Miscavige: Oh, absolutely not, because we're not in an environment here that is conducive to all the elements of auditing.
Koppel: Why? I mean, I'm perfectly comfortable here.
Miscavige: Well, here's why, because you're the interviewer here on the program.
Koppel: All right.
Miscavige: And you're the one who's in charge here on the program, and you're interested in doing a program. That instantly throws out the first three rudiments to doing this, it's not something--
Koppel: Okay. Fair enough.
Miscavige: As a matter of fact--
Koppel: No, I buy that. That's fair enough. One of the other, if you're not going to use the E-meter, though, Forrest also showed some of the people working with what, plasticine clay?
Miscavige: Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, there's a sort of misconception that comes out. That's part of the study technology of Scientology.
Koppel: Explain it.
Miscavige: There's a study technology developed by L. Ron Hubbard. He isolated the three barriers to study. You see, there's a technology that helps you study any subject. One of those is not having the mass in front of you. I'll give you an example.
Koppel: Not having the what?
Miscavige: The mass of an object that you're studying in front of you. A good example, here we are in the studio and we have cameras all over the place. Imagine you were going to school when you were 15 and you're studying up on cameras and you've never seen one, okay? You wouldn't really quite understand it too well. It'd be better if you had the camera there that you could do it with. Taking something more crude than that, where we're not talking about electronics, any given area of study, the ability to demonstrate in clay a concept in the paragraph allows you to gain a greater understanding of that subject. This is something that he asked me about in the intro. There was a piece on it. But generally what people do is, they'll be studying materials and then they will see if they really understand it by demonstrating it in this clay, and if they can make a three-dimensional figure of it, it often serves to clarify that concept and also show whether they understand it or not. And it's part of a study program, it's not a process of Scientology, we're not looking to make people better with this. It's strictly a way of studying.
Koppel: Why is it necessary, in order to progress? I mean, some of the sums that are charged -- and I literally don't have them; it's not something I've tucked away in my memory -- but we're talking about, in some instances, to move from one level to the next level, $7,000, $10,000, $15,000. Huge sums. Why?
Miscavige: Yeah, well, okay, number one, we certainly do have a different donation system than other churches, although not all other churches.
Miscavige: Yeah, absolutely.
Koppel: You call it a donation.
Miscavige: Oh, absolutely, because there's people there who are donating to the church, period.
Koppel: I understand, but are there people there who are making that progress-- I mean, what, again, to get back to the person who doesn't have any money, what does he or she do?