National Public Radio presidential debate
— -- Below is a complete rush transcript of the NPR News and Iowa Public Radio national Democratic Presidential debate.
Candidates: Sen. Joseph Biden; Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton; Sen. Christopher Dodd; John Edwards; Mike Gravel; Rep. Dennis Kucinich; Sen. Barack Obama
Moderators: Steve Inskeep, Michele Norris, and Robert Siegel
ROBERT SIEGEL: But the Democrats are here, and they are, from left to right on your radio dial, Senator Hillary Clinton, former Senator Mike Gravel, Senator Barack Obama, Senator Christopher Dodd, Senator Joseph Biden, former Senator John Edwards and Congressman Dennis Kucinich.
Governor Bill Richardson could not join us. He's attending the funeral of a Korean War soldier whose remains the governor recently helped repatriate from North Korea.
So we're going to get started with the debate, and let's stipulate in advance what I know many feel obliged to say. We're grateful that all of you are here, and we expect that you're grateful to the Iowa State Historical Museum, the people of Iowa, public radio in Iowa and NPR News. And we appreciate that and hope we can move on to the topic of Iran.
The new National Intelligence Estimate contains a major change. It says that Iran stopped its nuclear weapons program in the fall of 2003. Today President Bush said that nothing's changed in light of the report. He said the NIE, the National Intelligence Estimate, doesn't do anything to change his opinion about the danger Iran poses to the world.
For all of you — and let's go left to right across the radio dial — do you agree with the president's assessment that Iran still poses a threat? And do you agree that the NIE's news shows that isolation and sanctions work?
Senator Clinton.
SEN. HILLARY CLINTON: Well, I'm relieved that the intelligence community has reached this conclusion, but I vehemently disagree with the president that nothing's changed and therefore nothing in American policy has to change.
I have for two years advocated diplomatic engagement with Iran, and I think that's what the president should do. He should seize this opportunity and engage in serious diplomacy, using both carrots and sticks. I think we do know that pressure on Iran does have an effect. I think that is an important lesson. But we're not going to reach the kind of resolution that we should seek unless we put that into the context of a diplomatic process.
SIEGEL: Thank you, Senator Clinton.
Senator — former Senator Mike Gravel.
MR. MIKE GRAVEL: Iran's not a problem, never has been, never will be.
What you're seeing right here is something very unique, very courageous. What the intelligence community has done is drop-kicked the president of the United States. These are people of courage that have watched what the president is doing, onrush to war with Iran.
And so by releasing this information, which is diametrically opposed to the estimate that was given in '05 by showing that there is no information to warrant what the White House has been doing, they have now boxed in the president in his ability to go to war. So, my hat is off to these courageous people within the bureaucrats — bureaucracy of the intelligence community.
SIEGEL: Thank you, Senator Gravel.
Senator Barack Obama.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA: Well, I think Iran continues to be a threat to some of its neighbors in the region, so they're still funding Hamas, they're still funding Hezbollah, and those are things we have to be concerned about. But it is absolutely clear that this administration and President Bush continues to not let facts get in the way of his ideology. And that's been the problem with their foreign policy generally. They should have stopped the saber-rattling, should have never started it, and they need now to aggressively move on the diplomatic front.
I have said consistently since the beginning of this campaign that it is important for the president to lead diplomatic efforts, to try to offer to Iran the prospect of joining the World Trade Organization, potential normalized relations over time, in exchange for changes in behavior. That's something that has to be pursued.
SIEGEL: Senator Chris Dodd.
SEN. CHRIS DODD: Well, again, this is 16 agencies that have drawn this conclusion, it wasn't just one. So it's a very compelling case that's been made here for exercising caution and pursuing what I've advocated, and others have as well, and that is, pursuing as much of a diplomatic solution to the problems that Iran poses. And there are some. It would be foolish to say otherwise here.
But the important point is we can't do this unilaterally. And that's one of the dangers here. If we really try to impose sanctions by ourselves or other such efforts here, they will fail. It's very important to understand the linkage, obviously, not only between Iran, but Iraq and Iran, and our ability to build this kind of international support for efforts to convince Iran on a variety of issues to move in a different direction is being seriously compromised by our continued military presence in Iraq.
So there needs to be not only understanding what's written in this report, but simultaneously understanding that that more multilateral approach is going to be hobbled and difficult as long as we find ourselves bogged down in the Iraq situation.
SIEGEL: Thank you, Senator Dodd.
Senator Joseph Biden.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN: With all due respect with anybody who thinks that pressure brought this about, let's get this straight. In 2003, they stopped their program.
You cannot trust this president. He is not trustworthy. He has undermined our security in the region. He has undermined our credibility in the world. He has made it more difficult to get cooperation from the rest of the world. He has caused oil to go up roughly $25 a barrel with a security premium because of his threat of war.
It is outrageous, intolerable, and it must stop. The president of the United States — it was like watching a rerun of his statement on Iraq five years earlier. This — Iran is not a nuclear threat to the United States of America. Iran should be dealt with directly with the rest of the world at our side, but we've made it more difficult now because who is going to trust us? Who in Europe, who in China, who in Russia? It's outrageous.
SIEGEL: Thank you, Senator Biden.
Senator John Edwards.
MR. JOHN EDWARDS: Thank you.
What — what I believe is that this president, who just a few weeks ago was talking about World War III, he, the vice president, the neocons have been on a march to possible war with Iran for a long time. We know that they've prepared contingency plans for a military attack. My view is that the — this has been going on since the famous "Axis of Evil" speech, and the United States Senate had an important responsibility in standing up to him and stopping him on the vote on whether to declare the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization. The president says we're in a global war on terror, and then he declares the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization and also a proliferator of weapons of mass destruction. It's absolutely clear and eerily similar to what we saw with Iraq, where they were headed — and there's a different approach, a smart approach using our friends in Europe and the European banking system to deal with this.
SIEGEL: Thank you, Senator Edwards.
And Congressman Kucinich.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Just as five years ago I warned that there was no evidence that would merit war against Iraq and warned this country not to do it, so for the past few years I've been saying that there's no evidence that Iran had a nuclear weapons program. And unfortunately, the president, just as he was able to convince some of my colleagues here to vote for the war against Iraq, despite the fact there wasn't any real evidence, so he has been able to get some of my colleagues here — Senators Clinton, Obama and Edwards — to say of Iran "all options are on the table." As a matter of fact, he's still saying that. So we really need to switch to not just diplomacy, but my candidacy offers the American people someone for president who was right the first time.
SIEGEL: Thank you, Congressman Kucinich.
A question from Steve Inskeep.
STEVE INSKEEP: Senator Clinton, as some of your opponents have noted, in September you voted on a resolution involving the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, which, among other things, called them proliferators of mass destruction. In view of this latest intelligence estimate, which says Iran's nuclear program was stopped in 2003, do you believe that's still true?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, there were other purposes for that resolution. It does label the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization, and there is evidence that they do support Hamas and Hezbollah, as Senator Obama just said, and in addition have, until recently, been supplying weapons and technical advisers to various factions within Iraq.
Since that resolution passed — which was non-binding and did not in any way authorize the president to take any action that would lead to war — our commanders on the ground in Iraq have announced that we've seen some progress from the Iranians backing off, no longer sending in weapons and materiel, and beginning to withdraw their technical advisers.
INSKEEP: Forgive me, are the Revolutionary Guards proliferators of mass destruction?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, many of us believe that. You know, earlier this year, Senator Edwards told an audience in Israel that the nuclear threat from Iran was the greatest threat to our generation. Back in 2004, Senator Obama told the Chicago Tribune Editorial Board that he would even consider nuke — surgical strikes by missiles to take out Iran's nuclear capacity. So there was a very broadly based belief that they were pursuing a nuclear weapon.
INSKEEP: Let's hear from people you've just mentioned. Senator Edwards, do you remember saying that?
MR. EDWARDS: Well, first of all, Senator Clinton and I just have an honest disagreement about this, but a very strong disagreement. I think it's very clear that Bush and Cheney have been rattling the saber about Iran for a very long time, and I said very clearly when this vote took place on the Iranian Revolutionary Guard that it was important for us to stand up to them.
INSKEEP: But your remarks in Israel that Senator — that Senator —
MR. EDWARDS: Well, everyone — everyone at the table would acknowledge that Iran represents a serious issue for the Middle East and for us —
REP. KUCINICH: No, I do not acknowledge —
INSKEEP: Congressman Kucinich does not, but —
MR. EDWARDS: Let me finish, if I can.
REP. KUCINICH: Let me characterize my own remarks.
MR. EDWARDS: If I can just finish, Dennis, for just a second.
But I do want it to be clear that, especially on an issue as big as Iran, it's very important for voters in Iowa — caucus-goers in Iowa and New Hampshire voters — to understand the differences. And I do believe very strongly that it was important for us to stand up because what Bush and Cheney did after the vote in the Senate is they declared the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization and a proliferator of weapons of mass destruction.
SIEGEL: Senator Obama.
SEN. OBAMA: Well, Senator Clinton's mention of the Chicago Tribune article back in 2004, I think, is a little bit misleading. Because what I was specifically asked about was if Iran was developing nuclear weapons, how could we respond? And in those situations, what I said is we should keep options on the table. But what I've been consistent about was that this saber-rattling was a repetition of Iraq, a war I opposed, and that we needed to oppose George Bush again. We can't keep on giving him the benefit of the doubt, knowing the ways in which they manipulate intelligence.
SIEGEL: Senator Obama, we're going to have to take a break here, and we'll continue with our debate. We'll continue discussing Iran in just one minute.
You're listening to special coverage from Iowa Public Radio and NPR News.
(Announcements)
INSKEEP: Welcome back to the NPR News debate. We're with the Democrats in Des Moines, along with Michele Norris. I'm Steve Inskeep.
SIEGEL: And I'm Robert Siegel. We're discussing Iran, the lessons learned from the war in Iraq.
A moment ago when Congressman Kucinich objected to or interrupted the statement from Senator Edwards that everybody agrees Iran is a threat, you say, Congressman Kucinich, I misinterpreted your earlier remarks that Iran is not a threat.
REP. KUCINICH: All I did was raise my hand. I wanted a chance to respond.
SIEGEL: Yes.
REP. KUCINICH: Thank you.
The point that Senator Clinton made was a valid point with respect to the comments of Senator Obama and also the comments of Senator Edwards at the Herzliya conference. See, when people say all options are on the table, as the three senators have, they actually encouraged President Bush and licensed his rhetoric. And what I'm saying is that I'm the only one here who in Congress repeatedly challenge, in every chance and every legislation, repeatedly challenge this mindset that said all options are on the table and that Iran had nuclear weapons programs.
SIEGEL: Okay. Cleared up.
REP. KUCINICH: I'm the only one who can make that claim.
SIEGEL: Clarified.
Senator Chris Dodd, are all options on the table, should they be on the table?
SEN. DODD: Well, certainly under — what circumstances we're talking about here. I think the vote in September was very important. We're all seeking to be the nominee of our party, seeking the presidency.
SIEGEL: You're talking about the vote on the Kyl-Lieberman resolution — amendment.
SEN. DODD: I am. That's very important, because it was a — there are only about 20 of us here — Senator Biden and myself are the only two on this table here when confronted with that vote that voted against it, along with Senator Lugar, I might point, Senator Chuck Hagel and others, Jim Webb, who felt that this was — the language of the Resolved clause in that resolution, that non-binding resolution, specifically eliminated any option except a military one. And that kind of framework is exactly the thing you're going to hear back again, in my view. And the danger involved — those critical moments come periodically, but it demonstrates leadership on a critical issue such as this one —
SIEGEL: Thank you, Senator Dodd.
SEN. DODD: — where there's enough information to reach a different conclusion.
SIEGEL: Senator Clinton — you voted for it, Senator Clinton.
SEN. CLINTON: Oh, I did, along with many others, including strong opponents of the Iraq war and the use of military force, like Senator Dick Durbin and Senator Carl Levin. And all of us have said that if we thought that anything in that resolution gave even a pretense of legitimacy to President Bush taking any action, we wouldn't have voted that way. In fact, a number of the Democrats worked furiously to clarify the meaning of that resolution.
The specifics about designating the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization, I believe, fits into a broader diplomatic effort. I believe in aggressive diplomacy when it comes to Iran, and when you engage in aggressive diplomacy, you need both carrots and sticks. And I think the designation provides one of those sticks that will give us a chance to make progress to where we could have a resolution.
SIEGEL: I want you to hear what one of the sponsors of that resolution, Senator Joseph Lieberman, said about Iran and about the Revolutionary Guard, explaining that resolution, when he spoke one month ago on "All Things Considered."
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (I-CT): (From tape.) Iran has crossed a red line. I mean, they are responsible for the killing of hundreds of American soldiers. And right now, all that we, the United States, has done is to tell them — show them the evidence that we have that they're doing it and tell them they got to stop; and they haven't. So now we have economic sanctions. If that doesn't work, we really have to consider military action to stop them from doing it, perhaps by striking the bases around Tehran, where we know they are training these Iraqi terrorists who go back to kill Americans.
SIEGEL: Senator Edwards, why not?
MR. EDWARDS: Well, first of all, diplomacy. Declaring a military group sponsored by the state of Iran a terrorist organization, that's supposed to be diplomacy? And I would add, this has to be considered in the context that — Senator Clinton has spoken about me, let me just respond — this has to be considered in the context that Senator Clinton has said she agrees with George Bush terminology that we're in a global war on terror, then she voted to declare the military group in Iran a terrorist organization. How — what possible conclusion can you reach other than that we are at war? And —
SIEGEL: Senator Clinton may reply, and then we'll hear from Senator Gravel.
MR. EDWARDS: — I have very — a very different view about what you need to do to stand up to Bush.
SIEGEL: We'll have a response from Senator Clinton and then Mike Gravel. Yes.
SEN. CLINTON: Well, you know, I understand politics and I understand making outlandish political charges, but this really goes way too far. In fact, having designated the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization, we've actually seen some changes in their behavior. There is absolutely no basis for a rush to war, which I oppose and have opposed for two years.
But there is also a recognition that the Iranians were supplying weapons that killed Americans. They were supplying technical assistance from the Qods Force, which is their special operations element. So I think we've actually seen the positive effects of having labeled them a terrorist organization, because it did change their behavior.
SIEGEL: Mike Gravel, then Joe Biden.
MR. GRAVEL: There is no evidence. There is no evidence, and they've produced none. Our military has no evidence and they've not produced any.
But let's — I want to touch something that they're all giving license to, that there's something wrong with Iran supporting Hamas and Hezbollah. These are two elected organizations, and — and why can't they give support to those organizations? Israel doesn't want it, so why do they buy hook, line and sinker that they can't give aid to Hamas and Hezbollah? We give unlimited aid to Israel. These people are fighting for their rights.
SIEGEL: You believe —
MR. GRAVEL: Is there something wrong with that?
SIEGEL: We'll come back to your points in a moment.
Senator Biden, you wanted to talk about the al-Qods Brigade.
SEN. BIDEN: No, I wanted to talk about this issue.
As chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, I'm the only one at this table for the last four years who've been laying out concrete alternatives to the Bush administration's policy. The vote — what everybody misunderstands, in my humble opinion, is the vote to declare the Qods Force and the Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization was not a view that could be established without question, number one.
Number two, it is self-defeating. The moment that declaration was made, oil prices jumped over $18 a barrel. The moment that declaration was made, every one of our friends, from Iraq to Pakistan, felt they had to distance themselves from us because it appears to be a war on Islam.
My — with all due respect to my colleagues, with the exception of Senator Dodd, they're not connecting the dots here. This matters, and there's no evidence — none, zero –
SIEGEL: Thank you.
SEN. BIDEN: — that this declaration caused any change in action on the part of the Iranian government.
SIEGEL: Senator Barack Obama.
SEN. OBAMA: There was another problem with the resolution that we haven't spoken about, and that was that it suggested that we should structure in some way our forces in Iraq with the goal of blunting Iranian influence in Iraq.
Now, this is a problem on a whole bunch of fronts, but number one, the reason that Iran has been strengthened was because of this misguided war in Iraq. We installed — helped to elect a government in Iraq that we knew had connections with Iran. And so the notion somehow that they're not going to have influence and that we may be using yet another justification for a continuing mission in Iraq I think is an extreme problem and one of the reasons why this was a bad idea.
SIEGEL: Senator Edwards.
MR. EDWARDS: I just want to be clear to the listeners that we have a real division here. I mean, among the Democratic candidates, there's only one that voted for this resolution. And this is exactly what Bush and Cheney wanted.
Second, there is a clear path for America on Iran. They've got a president, Ahmadinejad, who's unpopular in his own country.
We have the capacity to work with our European allies and the European banking system to put a proposal of sticks and carrots on the table that actually will help influence their behavior. The Iranian people in many ways do not support this guy, and they're looking for a path. We need to help provide that path by making a serious proposal, with our friends in Europe, of sticks and carrots to help them with their economy.
SIEGEL: Senator Clinton and then another question.
SEN. CLINTON: Well, I think, first of all, it's important to recognize that Ahmadinejad does not control the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. They are directly controlled from the clerical leadership and the supreme leader. And in fact because we have not engaged in diplomacy, we are quite unsure about what exactly goes on inside of Iran, which is one of the reasons why I've advocated diplomatic efforts for two years.
If we were to engage in such diplomatic efforts, because of the enmeshment of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard in the economic activity of Iran, I believe these economic sanctions, as part of diplomacy, would be an advantage going into those diplomatic efforts.
I have the greatest respect for my friend and colleague Joe Biden. He and I just respectfully disagree about this.
But I think that the important issue is that this is something that we have strong feelings about, but none of us is advocating a rush to war. I have been against that. I was the first of anyone at this table to go to the floor of the Senate, speak against the possibility that Bush could take us to war in Iran, back in February. And I think that we have two different ways of approaching this. Our goals are the same: diplomatic engagement with Iran.
SIEGEL: Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, thrives on anti-Americanism. One of our listeners, Ray Conrad (ph) from Keosauqua, Iowa, who incidentally has made campaign contributions to Senator Edwards and also to Senator Biden, sent us a question about that, and he put it this way: "Clearly, many Muslims hate the U.S. enough to want to do us grievous harm. Would you speculate on the reasons for their hatred of us?"
Senator Biden, why?
SEN. BIDEN: By the way, terminology matters. I'm a great admirer of Senator Clinton. It's not about not advocating a rush to war. I'm advocating no war. A rush to war means that war, taken slowly, going slowly, is possible. I'm advocating no war, no justification for war.
SIEGEL: Take military off the table, you say.
SEN. BIDEN: Number two, the reason why — the reason why we are disliked so much is because we are trusted so little. The reason why we are disliked so much, obviously — I'm not talking about al Qaeda. I'm talking about the 1.2 billion Muslims in the world who look at us and, when we say and do things as we're talking about now with Iran, conclude that this is a war on Islam.
I'll make one point. When we went into Afghanistan, the word was, the Arab street would rise up. We did it the right way. The Arab street knew that Arabs, the Muslims in al-Qaeda were bad guys. They supported us. When we do things that don't sound rational to them, it undercuts our legitimacy. We have no legitimacy.
SIEGEL: Let me put this to Senator Edwards first and then others.
When we do things that policymakers in Washington may think are rational, like very strong support of Israel, that also upsets a lot of those 1 billion Muslims you've described. How would you, Senator Edwards, how would you as president, Senator Edwards, answer the complaint that the U.S., in its support of Israel, is so pro-Israeli, it can't be an evenhanded, honest broker of matters and is anti-Muslim?
MR. EDWARDS: Well, first of all, I think that what's driving this belief about America and the Muslim community around the world is the bullying, selfish, abusive behavior of George Bush and this administration.
I do want to go back to one quick point. I listened to Senator Clinton talk about what's happening inside Iran. We know what's happening inside Iran. We know a great deal about what's happening. We know, for example, that Ahmadinejad's candidates in the election this — December, about a year ago, got clobbered. We know that there's a serious political — lack of political support for this man, and we have a huge wedge there that's available to America.
Now, as to the Muslim community, I think that the most important thing for America to do is to demonstrate that we have a responsibility not just to ourselves but to humanity, and to help make education available to fight global poverty. We need to take serious steps to demonstrate that America's actually worthy of leadership.
SIEGEL: Senator Obama.
SEN. OBAMA: Well, I think John's point is right, but I want to broaden it a little bit.
Listen to the Republican candidates' debates and how they frame this issue. And if you were a Muslim overseas listening to Rudy Giuliani say, they are coming here to try to kill you, which is the tenor of many of the speeches that are delivered by the Republican candidates, you would get an impression that they are not interested in talking and resolving issues peacefully. Now, what we need to do is we need to close Guantanamo. We need to restore habeas corpus. We need to send a strong signal that we are going to talk directly to not just our friends but also to our enemies.
And I have to say that when I brought this up early on in this campaign, I was called naive and irresponsible. And yet the point, the reason for that was not necessarily because we're going to change Ahmadinejad's mind. It's because we're going to change the minds of people inside Iran, moderate forces inside Iran, as well as our Muslim allies around the region, that we are willing to listen to them and try to engage in finding ways to resolve conflicts cooperatively.
SIEGEL: Senator Christopher Dodd.
SEN. DODD: Well, this is longstanding. I mean, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, we had – there were, I think, classified ads in The Washington Post trying to find out if there was anyone in the region who spoke Arabic. This has been a vacuum for a long time in terms of our relationship with the Muslim world, the 22 countries of the world that are Muslim nations. We've been basically AWOL on dealing with these nations here, and that has bred a lack of understanding and appreciation, the point I think that Barack was trying to make here.
But also over these last six years, despite this effort over the last few days in Annapolis, where has this administration been on the Middle East issues here? They are connected in many ways here. It appears definitely here that we're sort of just — we're not engaged at all. Over the past years, both Republican and Democratic administrations have made it a part of their agenda to stay engaged, to make it clear that we're an honest broker trying to resolve the issue of Israel's security as well as the legitimate issue of Palestinians seeking an independent state. We've walked away from that. And that — that — that absolute — that absence of our participation, as well as our failure to understand and to try to have a better feeling for what the culture of the Muslim world is, I think has created the very environment you talked about.
SIEGEL: Last word on this topic from Dennis Kucinich.
REP. KUCINICH: Thank you.
To answer your question directly, we need to reach out to Muslim nations and to tell them America's taking a different direction — no more unilateralism, preemption, first strike. We're going to — our policy will be strength through peace. As the one up here who not only voted against, but voted 100% of the time against funding the war in Iraq, the war in Iraq was used to create a wedge between the United States and Islam. The — the buildup to an attack on Iran was really a danger to Israel because everyone knows that Israel would have paid the price for the United States' wrongheaded policy. That's not being discussed in any of the analysis yet, but I'm here to say it.
We need to protect and provide for the security of Israel and to make sure that the Palestinians can have a state, and it has to be done under circumstances where the security of all parties, and the civil rights and human rights of all parties, are — are protected.
SIEGEL: Well, this question comes from a listener. It's political science professor Chris Pence (ph) of Marion, Indiana.
PROF. CHRIS PENCE (MARION, INDIANA): (From tape.) American diplomatic history books recount the Monroe Doctrine, the Truman Doctrine, and will likely discuss the Bush Doctrine. When future historians write of your administration's foreign policy pursuits, what will be noted as your doctrine and the vision you cast for U.S. diplomatic relations?
SIEGEL: Time for a couple of you at least. Senator Clinton, what do you think the Clinton Doctrine will be?
SEN. CLINTON: Well, it will be a doctrine of restoring America's leadership and moral authority through multilateral organizations, through attempts to come to agreements on issues ranging from global warming to stopping the proliferation of nuclear weapons and other dangerous weapons. It will be a doctrine that demonstrates that the United States is not afraid to cooperate; that through cooperation in our interdependent world, we actually can build a stronger country and a stronger world that will be more reflective of our values.
SIEGEL: Thank you, Senator Clinton.
The Edwards Doctrine.
MR. EDWARDS: The Edwards Doctrine will be longer term, visionary, not the kind of ad hoc foreign policy, policy — foreign policy of convenience that we've seen over the last seven years, but instead looking at not only the short-term issues that America and the world faces. We've talked about Iran, Pakistan, what's happening with North Korea. We're about to talk about China. But also to think about what is it that America does over the long term to strengthen not only our leadership role, but our ability to provide stability. And that — the key to that is for America, both through our actions and through our language from the president of the United States, to demonstrate that we respect people who grow up in different cultures with different faith beliefs, that we respect people who have a different perspective than we do. And we intend to lead, but to work with those people. And for America, with education, health, et cetera, to meet its responsibility to humanity.
SIEGEL: And Senator Biden, the Biden Doctrine.
SEN. BIDEN: Clarity. Prevention, not preemption. An absolute repudiation of this president's doctrine, which has only three legs in the stool: one, push the mute button, don't talk to anybody; two, preemption; and three, regime change. I would reject all three. We need a doctrine of prevention. The role of a great power is to prevent the crises. And we don't have to imagine any of the crises. We know what's going to happen on day one when you're president. You have Pakistan, Russia, China, the subcontinent of India. You have Afghanistan. You have Darfur. And it requires engagement — engagement and prevention. That does not rule out the use of force; it incorporates the notion of prevention — prevention.
