'The best leaders figure out where the country wants to go'

Amna Nawaz and ABC News' Chief Political Analyst Matt Dowd talk about the power of political campaigns in America and the good and bad changes they can bring.
39:14 | 05/30/17

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Transcript for 'The best leaders figure out where the country wants to go'
Hey everybody I'm on in the nods welcome to the next episode of uncomfortable. The goal here you guys know is to have honest conversations that the issue that seemed to be dividing America so every week we try to have a special guest try to break out some of those issues. Find out not only what they believe but why they believe what they do. With me this week. Matthew. ABC's chief political analyst rates extra special guest extra extra special guests felt the fine and that. Actress that Doug Cat Power play now. We're gonna talk politics. We should have a little moment of disclosure here we work together yes we had a ton of fun over the last year one of the campaign together when he sixteen. You can live stream coverage all the time which I anchor. You pat Meehan and your show straight talk excellent excellent show. It's awesome to be partners in all of it's awesome to be partners in all of that thank you so much for being here. Thirty years in politics. In your career Kress yes exactly. I want to talk about how you even ended up in politics differently who talked a lot about. How you grew up in where you can wrap your story starts in which are. There it's in Detroit one of eleven children and Irish Catholic family. In Detroit my father worked in the auto industry I tell people that sometimes it's admirable and kids Irish Catholic and if they don't guess Catholic against Mormon. So I told you are that. Names of the kids you would know rightly Mary Patrick MacKey might implicate Kelly that John Steve. That's straight out of Bible go find the names and the mr. repeating them so it's like Mickey John. Which I have two gospels like I'm I needed to fit that. And then we have Patrick Meehan John Patrick Kelly Marie and then we have Mary Mary Katherine Newser repeating names because we ran along the way so. I grew up there Leary you number three and older brother or sister and what they talked politics my mom and dad talked politics but were never involved in any sort of formal way any act that began about security groups and that's as we were growing up. But there is its single incident. That happened with me it actually let me where I am which was Watergate. And when I was twelve years old we used to go to summer vacation but northern machine we drive up and toothpaste you. And go up and stay on one of the lakes and to win the Watergate hearings happened I was thirteen years old. That they are no twelve years old in the summer of 73. And I kept fascinated by and I have watched and watched and watched him and I was just asking about everything about that can still remember. Back to see ammerman was cheer when the committees and Howard Baker and John Dean. And that watching accent I want Indian bow and in some way in it was the combination here's a president who's being held accountable. You watch on two questions of the constitution and how it's connected Texan bounces work but off so to reporters who were dogged in net. And Woodward or Bernstein. Who basically. Over two years sometimes successfully sometimes variance effects but it times stay out of stories in a story status story. And it finally have a president to resign from office so that thing that whole combination thing. Ever since and I dirty getting about. Which part of it was at that spoke to you Alec holding. People in the essence of power accountable or just the power centers of dollars to drop what went I think it was a combination of things it was a combinations. Here's our US constitution being tested in I was always interest in history. And rental lot so. It was that it was the human ness of everybody in here's again at the height of its power but was still incredibly insecure about it here's. He broke into Watergate in 1972 when he was gonna win millennium slide. There was no all these things that he did on him. That crime wasn't as bad as the cover up. And then the reporter's actually getting interest to historians working on a story and getting it out there to serve the public interest. If it's the entire combination which had adrenaline rush is obviously. For the people and now but also people watching it and so all of that I didn't actually know what I was can endure hours in the duke and I knew I wanted to be in politics. With anyone else in your life in your circles of like influence annual go into politics was that they will now nobody in my family has ever even in a considered and my kids doubt in my kids talk about it but they have now. Now real interest in in my gaming by the justices talk about it with me and him opinions and different things I mean interesting thing about the family is that we probably. Represented America pretty well in unite union now my sister when times and semi Esther what's that and she said you can go down to go down to a New York subway stop. And randomly pick eleven people. That would be your spam filters at the summit and its unemployed it's just getting out of something they somebody that the doctor somebody that's just got a drug rehab whatever that story is we guys everywhere and their own way yet no way. Well I think when you're one of eleven kids I'm being part of it is as we it was great it was exciting and we had our own family. But we all decided to answer to pursue other interests and most of us want it to get out and go some where. I mean I remember when I was taking my school. I took a compass this is so I guess how did. He Miller whatever is slightly then. The its compass of the public at eighteen hundreds and you're going up at the conference that the pencil on the point oh that kind of that Alex and I drew a circle around Detroit. And I said and I do it 600 miles. Because I thought it was more than one day drive. And I said Alan I'm gonna go to school outside of that that I get a scholarship to and I did to get a week just anyway. I mean just because he wanted to actually there was so much in the respond but the results were incredible amounts of dysfunction and all the things associated with senior Billy's sort of create your own life in net net environment it's awful hard so I knew its menu my Brothers sisters knew. In order sort of go out increase your life you have through leaf and we did. We elect these kids and asked him personally get his act. The com I was a very. You know sort of happy positive you know optimistic. I was sort of write in gets every family you sir figure out who's in wise and all of that mystery considered conservative leaders last diplomatic and I would organize step backward try to reduce the intensity. In the family unit at semi was upset I would figure a way to distract it. So that with some going and remember organizing Summer Olympics among our own family and neighbors rhetoric and that creek metals. Did she have bad secretary arts and craft yet it's likely make metals and then we'd have our own and in it we do real things like 100 yard dash but that we would do like. Swinging on a sunset house parking jump off the swing set. I first get gold silver bronze I did all. Pre competitive I was very competitive and very competitive with my with with members of her family and one of the things our parents push they were both graduates of Jesuits we have received try to jesuit school in both did very well at school. They really pushed academics and through doing that accurate muted Levy inbound and sports Whitman effects as did. But they'd really pushed academics and it was you get home in U. I remembered I came home with a report card once and I had 680s when V and the question again asses how did you get the B. The go from this funny big family industry you know you wanna leave you went to school in saint Mary yeah. Missouri I think it's pretty misery with different people perhaps different from Iraq France and misery in much and that no backlash. And you he's Matthew GA dad and if you can send in your comments. How did you first get into politics your first job was win my first he paid. Yes I did a lot of volunteer work in high school I'd volunteer for campaigns and then I did some volunteer work in college my first real thing was I. Intern for congressman Dick Gephardt in Saint Louis okay while I was in college and I was in his district office and I actually got to travel with him a good day this was back in 1982 in 1983. Anchor it was great experience he's a really good guy and his wife Jane are really good people in the funny thing is he would talk in the car at the time. About whether or not he wanted to run for president remember him talking about this or stay in house. And become speaker which is the route he wanted warrant any ultimately decided that he didn't want to wait to be speaker and he ran for president. Five years later. You I mean in year at this is when you're in college think outage and your kind of in this seat. Influence you're talking to people who are considering these big things that leave an impression world well I I I grew up. With that my parents were constantly and my mom I remember this push this idea that she would say you know I think it was a great lesson and I can't carry with me in an most of my Brothers and sisters Carrie went with them. Which is. Your bet no better than anybody outs and nobody else has better than you so anybody that turn push himself around thinking about a new because they have more money or more influence from that they're not but you're not better than anybody else if you gain those things you and I learned those lessons early remember I was canning it I used to chaotic country club. In Michigan wealthy country club Mitt Romney's father used to play golf and it George Romney was governor. And I remember Kaeding for people and these are all the pillars of the community who throw the people. That where you ministers or that wealthy businessmen and politicians. And watching him conduct themselves on the golf courses eye candy here's these people it would constantly criticize other people like why those welfare people what are they doing. And they we cheat on the golf course. And it gave me a really interesting lesson in life. Like everybody's flawed and everybody has their things and these people that hold the seats of power. Don't just assume that that they're acting in the best interest of somebody. You became the arm you went on to work for democratic senator from tax Lloyd Bentsen I. Yes who who was running for reelection I went to work for him and his campaign in many got picked. To be the vice presidential nominee Mike Dukakis in 1988 in and I ran his joint campaign in Texas. There's an interest in law that was passed by the remains Johnson when he ran. For president the first time and vice president for Kennedy under Kennedy. That he got a lot pass that he can run for his reelection to his senate seat in for. President or vice president in case he lost a key keep his seat for me and Benson took advantage of that events and ended up losing to losing the vice president. But he won his senate race in Texas so I did the joint campaign. Did you where you aligning yourself you self identify as a Democrat who both my parents were Republicans who and so when I got to college I started exploring other things and became more and Dick Capra was a Democrat win and so I became more interest in that and that. Cited it in and I did democratic campaigns for 25 something years. Until I went to work for George W. Bush what was it about the party then what was it about being a Democrat well listen to you it was less about that party and much more about. I got to meet different candidates if volunteer campaign for a guy named governor keys stale and misery before work for Gephardt really decent guy Tom misery so we stick agree back and agree microcosm of the country it's like is that what what's going misery as a reflective country not so much anymore but it was then. And then Gephardt I really liked him. And so it was a series of individuals actually that I really I was attracted to all of democratic in that. I was always. Have been always. A view of tolerance especially on social things that you. I mean I have man opinions I have my own thoughts being Catholic and all those things but I also think that we need agreement worked out we must be tolerant of people. I'm probably fiscally conservative. And so. There were politicians on the democratic side that fit that for Olympic period time and there were some Republicans that fit that problem today is will probably I'm sure in two days. That place which is where majority country is socially tolerant but fiscally let's be responsible whether money yet there doesn't seem to be a spot for. Which is a spot for people which is a majority of the country gray. I'm asking about the alignment because you then went on to work for for a public purpose I want to I worked for for two republics I tell people to revoke mr. Breivik. And our outsourcing or people say why you picked to doozies. And you mean you converted legacies of the term from one party to that yet from you know and that the last good. But to YE DED. So I ran a campaign for a democratic lieutenant governor in Texas the tenuous probable a great guy old style politicians passed away now. And hit ran his first campaign in nine units reelection in 94 and that's when George W. Bush won for governor and I got. In Dan Bullock and got the got lieutenant ever working with him. And I got attracted to both bush then was. I want to figure out a way to work across the aisle to do what's in the best interest at Texas he had a democratic speaker he would work with and a democratic lieutenant governor. And so Bush's a lot of things in education reform and business reform and all of that. And if that while this is somebody that actually could do if he chose to run for president or chose to run for other national office may be actually bring the country together. And I started I'd gotten out of politics temporarily. Her again at a politics and started a couple of businesses. He colleague Karl Rove called. When I left one of the businesses is Susan 99 and say would you go to would you would only go to work for. George Bush for run for president animated decisions and I would what was that. I thought has has here's a person and I think many people were attracted to him thought. Here's again it brought people together in Texas bridge and divides our people out of the their places and was able to do it in the best interest in accommodated the state. And that that's we need Washington and that was my assumption I liked him personally in on. He's a really personable he's a really good guy. But I thought wow we if we could do this in Washington we could satellite problems. CU where he is you're senior strategist for the campaign challenges and timeouts and yeah I was so I was every analyst polling media in 2000 and I was its chief strategist in 2004. Trick just looking back now how different was it back then to the way campaigns run now with a facet different as a kind of the same in terms of the the national nations and the process and on land bomb it's it same and elements but. What's it speeded its it's increased an acceleration and so we yet we have social media and 2000. We know you didn't really had starts at start of really hand held devices really until 2004. There. And it used to be you had time to make decisions and you could play these things out. That's changed the speed at which and ended in truck introduction of all these different media when we didn't have podcasts ring podcasted exist. In plain sad time in our podcast that desert desert of ideas. And that has changed the nature of that they used the speed of it and that's actually I think change the nature of the ability be fought. Well so this brings you back to 2004. Because a lot of people went to that and daily a lot of things changed in how we run campaigns. In that campaign to that described went back and reading some of the coverage at the time may be this happens every election cycle we talk about divided the country is and how partisan things are. But the word Armageddon. We've used to describe 2004 it was like an army getting campaign. And they've gotten nasty. Very well it was I mean I think it's been. Every cycle increases as is the country tribal allies as more and more people say if you're not on my team in your evil and everybody's good over here it's wearing this Jersey in everybody's batterers. This where in actors he. Has existed but it's increased thinks Kris thinks increased I think there were some things that. 2004 it was the first time in I was a big part of this. It's a percent big data that was used any campaign Reese and many people who in the east in the east groupings to sort of appeal make appeals to them that was the first time the Obama folks actually. Rated talk to a bunch of us in 2008 Hitler and we did it took it. To another they took it further. Beaten. And so all of those things I think camp increase this and I I think it's campaigns fundamentally don't change society. Campaigns her reflection of where society is heading school and I think as society has become more finalized only communicate to each other and divided and campaigns reflect that. The campaign also said that her own right for like the win a that language is used to things that become acceptable behavior and modes of interaction and discussion points and all those things he could introduced language. In the campaign the no one was talking about before and suddenly as we've seen in 2016. These are just phrases that everyone uses now raises its policy proposals as everyday language that can carry a lot away. Yes they do and I and the importance of that sometimes when your invalid a campaign in all bow Stell sale copped to this. Is is that your don't often recognize what you're doing and what what behavior it's normalizing or what you're doing in the country as a whole I will say that we should have been much more in what I was involved and I should have been much more. Cognizant cognizant of that and hand I am a much more aware of that now. In that how you say how do you talk to each other. And what you do in that campaign you have an obligation you should have an application asserts they amount to use divisive language I'm not it is because the country needs to be brought together yeah. And we need it in campaigns have contributed to that whole. Conversation which is made it much harder. Ticket to the common good. In 2004. That I mean looking back now and remember and I was just two years at a school in taking in an amendment think in this is ugly there. Your campaign deliberately cash. I was illegitimate. Vietnam veteran. Has like a spineless wimp be metal grabbing phony. Right and then there was a very strong stands taken island. Calling Colin gay marriage and supporting a constitutional amendment. So honestly have the answer I'm very device it. Issued IGG there salmon and yes there were divisive intrigued messages messages entries but I'm gonna sites or there's myths have arisen from that campaign the first one is. Is what we would have conversations as is interest and we would have conversations are on the table when the Democrats were going through the primary who we thought we'd be faster running it would. And people would make the argument they wanted to running John Edwards is running at the time and Howard Dean is running time and people all the peoples are seminary of us that were in the middle of deciding what we do would make an argument that I Casale argue that I thought John Kerry would be. The best to runs in the most easy to be yes that most of them yet and I wouldn't say easy but that you give us a greater shot at winning. And I did that because one. They eat eat the best kept best campaigns that Iran are ones it. There that that a T take a coin and once had a corner your strengths and the opposite side of the coin are the opponent's weaknesses. It's best to run against run run for your attributes that if your opponent is the opposite of those attributes. It's a easy conversation to have with the American public the campaigns nickel dryer say they say one thing about themselves and in some totally different. About the others in his heart for the public to figure out what's going out I think Kerrey provided that because Kyrie. He was sort of this defeat. Sort of consulate talking about nuance and gray areas which eyes I have learned life is all about nuances. And bush was black and white as the wait is this is our it and it was a great conscious and carry the flip flop or right Carrie wouldn't flop on issues and bush was learning he'd stick and he'd stay with this. That's what I thought the contrast we do now all the stuff related to his Vietnam record and all of that which was done by third parties now with Dan Meyer campaign. Noodling it was linked back to campaign there was going back to certain people I'll tell you what I made arguments with in the campaign that we should never go there he did I didn't think it would have any effect and I don't think he did have an effect in the campaign of the Smiths arisen the swift boat thing and that's what process now. That's that would constant news that you disagreed that at the time I disagree and Todd and the other thing I disagree with with the whole idea of people putting. Initiatives and referendums on the balance gay marriage yet because I thought most voters didn't care about those issues and we're gonna motivate them. And they were gonna monitor what they cared about was national security cared about being strong in the military ought all those attributes George Bush had. That's what they cared about and when you look at the election results the funny thing is. Is those states that had referendums on the ballot I'm game merry in. Conservatives didn't vote any in any higher percentages rain in the states that didn't have them you know it really didn't have an effect. Not only election that on the way we talked about thing. On on sort of the things that became acceptable I mean the constitutional amendment was basically like adding discrimination into the constitution. And it wasn't even necessarily a Republican democratic think is even John Kerry at the time Wright didn't support gay marriage he I think he support Alex civil unions and state legislature if you remember Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton didn't didn't come along on this issue. They were they would Barack Obama had. The same almost the exact same position is. George Bush bright note with the evolution on Beano are our SPD rep evolution yes and on our stance on LG BT rights and came to expand have been very quickly but. Even at the timing most of the country supported gay rights not necessarily same sex marriage is a different time. However at the tweets come out and endorse back to say this is something we should be doing even if you didn't agree today. You were in the circles of power. Yes it is he's obviously when you're in circles of power. And did when you're in those things you don't necessarily agree with everything you can to beat you can be dissolution by certain things again there's certain things that I've written and talked about in the aftermath and it's one of the things and then in the book that we have to we talked about before we came. That I talk about. Is that you say OK I like all these parts of its but I don't like this right and you it's a relationship you have with the candidate right. I remember mice although Iowa sister's getting away and she during the course that campaign and I can't remember the number of conversations with her some of which worked. Didn't go there were very uncomfortable because she was like how can you work for this guy about Rabat. And I so that's not the reason my support in my support for all these other things and so yeah it's it's a series of you have to ask yourself is. Are the things that he's that you don't agree with the bigger than the things that you agree with their what are you doing it in and oftentimes. You get in this begin in this conflict. Where you think OK who if he can just get reelected I remember having this on in conversation in my head if I can just get him reelected he'll do all the things. That I wanted to do that we gave you bring the country together obviously didn't turn out that way and I had a public break with them is in that. But that's what happens in a campaign it's like a relationship. You didn't have a very public break he's that the solution and seemed to just continue to grow. Was there like a tipping point or was it just an accumulation of things are retirees that this this campaign no longer campaign this this administration no longer speaks to me. I need to find a different. I think it was a combination of things in you know in in all of the moments of truth you know all the ways to truth in in in our lives. They're not you know Paul on the ways Damascus you don't get struck by lightning and think oh now I know there a series of windows right that you see and the and you decide to walk from a Nazi what's next what's next I would say it's a series of windows and culmination of things. Get leaving their I'm them went back to Texas right after the real act I mean I put night. GTT on my door which used to be it's an old saying that people that moved to Texas and 1830s. Put on their doors in Tennessee which meant if a neighbor Kim night where they wonder where they were it's it would deceit GTT. It meant gone to Texas a and I put that on my door in the campaign office and can in in Arlington Virginia when I left the day after. It hey I took time to myself and said listen I'm disappointed in this I was disappointed in the whole response to Abu Ghraib scandal in which I thought was mishandled. You thought he should I think he should I fire Donald and against Donald roms I think studies have fired Donald Rumsfeld and advocated that position. Internally. But it's so I took time out in mr. reflecting on it. And I'll and then it was a disappointment big disappointment in that we can bring the country of the country was now more polarized warrant than last. That Iraq War obviously turned out to be a complete disaster in a fiasco in. I don't think it was done with the intent at the beginning but it became it became a bad series of things along the way and piled the son enlisted. And was going to be sentenced to meet deployed to Iraq and so all of those things some personal some professional. Leg meat it's sort of start the process of Parikh. He regret any of the things that you did or support it on the campaign. Regret I don't really have I would say you know lived I would use that word I mean I know people think this new ones from a more remorse. I've probably have some remorse that I wish I would have spoken out sooner on certain things. But it's hard to say I mean all of ST the best we can in the moment in in in that our inning game we reflect back and you that we had to. Only only have the capacity in that moment to do it. We actually ended up doing duty if I had if I had sort of more thoughtful this morn that I have some remorse that I wish I would have spoken out sooner. In that but you know when I get it I was the first one I was the first street insider. To break with President Bush eaten and I lost a lot of friends and I lost taxis business in that time so you know. I it probably could have been sooner about it in you know I ended up doing it I guess from the best time line network for me. Politically used to help identify its independent totally am an independent vehement vehement independence and then I have Frances as you know it is we we've worked together in the conventions I have friends on both the democratic side the Republican side that Morgan a lot of different things. And I think that players many people have good intentions but I think the system is broken. And I think we need to hole a whole new way in the system. Funny you should mention ID one that I do a talk about this because this is it it's you've got some really important stuffing hair this is your new book. Yes it's called a new way yes available on Amazon animal on Amazon dearly well on Amazon here and here thank you but this is. You've got this mission now you've talked about the people back in 2007 talk about it. That you want to make efforts to heal some of the fissures that you feel you may have been apart. What we need. Well so. I I think in in time of reflection in in time of discovery in all of that and I went on this long spiritual retreat in the aftermath of all of these things and then having lost a son daughter and and all of the things happening island I want and that's retreat 225. At five. Major spiritual faith Austria Hinduism buddhism christianity Judaism Islam. And walk through various places in Turkey in Indian Naipaul in Israel and and Rome and an SEC where ended up his team princess's personal hero mind. And in the course of that one of the things you learn is is that all of these things binder certain it's elemental things that bind us all together that. Fundamental. Fundamental tenets of these major spears are all similar which is be part of something bigger than yourself. You know different things somebody calls it Collison recalls that God's army whatever they can't be part of something big yourself into and loved one or right. Treat others as you'd like to BS at an all and so in all of that I I started asked myself what is it that I've dated that I was in good about it. And I grew up Catholic and toys and faith is an important part of for me. And what can I do and so I've started a process in in my life of figuring. What can I do better what kind of in the small circles in my life what can do better when I'm professionally how to treat somebody we're alike say in olive and I've tried. In in all of that to sort of change the tenor in the which IE you know I'll make jokes and do all sorts of things that. As an Asian acronym now for news and remind myself it's it's called think didn't. Right and I am in my myself before going on here who whatever happened to do and I try to do this sometimes Folbaum but. Fix it stands for is of what I'm about to say true helpful inspiring necessary in kind. If it's not those adults say if it's not true it's not helpful sign inspiring it's necessary attack kind they don't say and I. Think part of this and then there's part of this is each of us treating others better. But also politically I think we need more choices and I think people are forced into these choices now today consumers system the way it is. And we need to sort of pushed through and innovate the system in a way. Much is nicer is think country over party yeah are putting the country or party you can be a Democrat or Republican or independent that puts country over party but putting country ahead of your track. Click over parties linked to eve started. Listen to that you've got a house and Dan you're asking people doing it's irrelevant a party they're right but what's what is the goal is autistic and create community where everyone has that shared mission I feel it's a mission and mop and many times with a mission you don't know exactly the and he disordered nose youths need to start doing something differently and then watch it move organically. So right now it's built a community. Of some thousands of people that have joined human part of it and I talked to were communicate with. And Daniel I put to you know I've gotten stickers that people can put on their vehicles are T shirts and their church yes well in at all and it just how everybody knows the profits from any of this idea who is only in eased back to go in my bank accounts and Indies to support the idea of changing our politics and change and currently we talked to each other race. And it's just I don't know what fundamentally it will lead. But I know that I need to try to do something and see where it goes so how that change that unifying. Is adding everyone can agree as a lot of fissures that need to be healed. Does it have to be your politics Steve no absolutely not. And I think that that's prides and that's one of the things everybody tries to put everybody else in boxes right well it's got to be the answer it's at a mean that. I think actually politics and the outcome of our relationships right in politics is is writ large. What's going on in our relationships and so. I think it's somebody is a social entrepreneur or in wherever Toledo Ohio that wants to figure out a way to sell housing. Vera person can change what's going. You know it's funny is is that he you know Hoover and left. Didn't start with let's starter ride share association they basically said let's solve this problem to solve this problem where people are frustrated with the industry and we want to better way. Our air being in the year or whatever or start a foundation did to help feed the homeless. In in a community I think all of those are political ax through and their actually revolutionary acts because you're going against. What the status quo isn't there anybody that does it's another thing you learn about all these religious leaders they were all revolutionaries. Because they stood up and said this doesn't work and they were fighting a system that was tried to stop them off its in its heretic in the ASEAN and so I think it's and I think it's politics which needs to change but. We all need change. What can you mention in here these lessons for. Leaders right is it intended audience where it is like the people I'm not looking for now it's just let it be directly or her letter. It's a plea Tom. That. He. Egypt and now it is it's intended for anybody. That wants to lead in some way in their life. And I think all atlas who I think we often reflect and the power that we have for change we often think alike got to give me your president picks the right. And so if that's our conversations go now it's at that I competently and that is that decisions are means so much as put it back to your original point and your jobs. So all much energy and effort and discussions put into what happens when you vote for president. Yeah and I I've I've. Gone up and down that letters I've got I've gone from working for local office and doing things all the way up to the White House right and I've come. And I realized the greatest power that can exit the greatest power that exists. Is locally. The greatest powers what we do neighborhoods inner canyon it's a greatest effect of change and normally people in Washington DC your national leaders they don't lead. They follow and they follow where we want to take them. And that's and in the best leaders if you look at the history of the country the best leaders figure out where the country wants to go and then Friday at one half step in front of Barrett echo those of the best leaders. And then do it constructively you do it climate change it will it will go call about constructively. And so them to have them audience for the book is anybody that has a desire to figure a way to lead but as I say. And sub tenants as embraced an apparent act as we lead and serve floor. And that's it's not we have to be able to have leaders that are humble servant leaders that are Erik Cole isn't just like hole an officer goal is to serve. At the orderly. Com I would run for office while. I have people of approached me I'm Democrat Democrats or reproach Republicans are pressuring him to answer approached me I thought about it thought about years ago when I came back to Texas people lady again and asked beans and it it wasn't the right time I don't think I don't think that's really mean I've considered and Wilkens or but I don't think that's where my voice is best served in. All of us. Have to decide where voices are passed in that it doesn't mean running for office but it anybody listening wants to run for office god bless you and I hope you do. I'm because I think we need new a new brand of leaders or if you wanted to help somebody Ron or you want as I say start he as social entrepreneurship. In your community whatever it is you want to do. Figure out where what's what's authentic to you I don't know if that is and so the likelihood is very small that I would. That the I just think I probably have a better voice and I you know on the my platform that I have working with ABC. I think it's part of that is sort of I don't like conduct myself in that highway treat people in that with respect and dignity. And calling people out any part of our jobs on as you know. Is that we that we in many ways we help others hold people accountable and that's our job we have to hold them accountable because if we don't hold them accountable. There's not many people that will. Phil give you the last were here before Alex. Illustrated do little sort of forward facing. Something in Europe optimistic your hopeful your man if they yet so what is it that you hope will happen. That does try to kind of bring the country. Back to the point of the more civility so I. I think that there's many people that at this that pink coat trump is the end of it and everything he's here in a tin knee you know they hate him now that I don't hate our company and hate Hillary Clinton now. Open a hate anybody. I think that you. Donald Trump is actually could be catalyst. To give him credit for this he has upset the apple cart so much he could be a catalyst to where we need to go and usually that's the case usually the case is that there's a catalyst could be negative catalyst for positive catalyst. And I think out of this I think people are realizing he used you watch people banding together that progressives and conservatives that are now advocating for what our constitution stands for. I think the pendulum has swung so far on one side of this away from the whole idea of humility in humble servant leaders. To this or reality TV. That it's gonna swing back we may have to give it up push me out push and and I think that's part of our obligation. To help push that. So I'm actually really optimistic and hopeful. In this time. Normally eat if you want change change has an occur when everybody's satisfied with that said it's status quo rain change occurs when there's dissatisfaction there's a lot of dissatisfaction. And so in that I think we can innovate if we use their imaginations and if we do it with some level of integrity you know Gandhi said Dan. I'm of this quota has I always at least try to tend to. He says what we learn what we think and what we do what we think you what we say in what we do our O line. And that's what we need and I think we're headed there we're just gonna have to help organize it. Take out and people who. It was I would not call that Zachary started this conversation. Now there's so many leaders around the world that I think that people expose themselves if they just got out of their little group. And they understand any you know one thing before we close at one thing I was struck by and as I say same Francis was always a pantomime. That. Saint Francis and roomy who you know the great courtroom eaten. We're basically lived an opposite sides of thing in the same time prepay were. Who works saying the same thing brown rice they were almost saying thinking an instrument of peace at Saint Francis says we are failure saying to the thing. And at Monta that you have really had his three gay rights that earlier were attached to pass through three and if you look at them they were they lived within a similar span of time one from a Christian faith and other wanted to from Islam faith and Muslim faith. And they worse basically trying to change that they manner of their church and basically go back to its roots which I find fascinating. The united talk about the about our -- them is a whole another conversation we can save for a whole another five at the awesome. MacKey did that the thank you so much new book and new way is out now and thank you for the time great to be here always great to be with you on the thanks solid you for watching Q and listening and pay check out the other episodes of I'm comfortable let us know what you think with up to hear from you. Phoenix I'm. Thank you for listening to. Uncomfortable. If you like what we're doing take imminent leave us the rating and a quick review it helps others define these conversations and we really just wanna hear it too thick. Plus we made it easy just click on the link in the description of this episode. If you have an idea for a show topic boring guest lead it and they're used shortly. After the baathist that's. And aid WA. DI FDA and -- use the hash tag uncomfortable talk. Uncomfortable with the production of ABC news. New episodes post every 2 weeks on Tuesday morning. I'm on in the five. Thanks to rest.

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