Closing Arguments: Time to Pay Pilots More?

With the coming inflation, everybody should make more….a lot more.

No, in the current economy, plane fares and misc. charges are ridiculous. Not only that, but the flights have been cut back and overbooked to the extent that you pay $600+ for a previous $158 flight, and that is without the additional luggage charges.

I might be willing to pay a bit more, However I’d like to see the CEO and middle management’s salary reported side by side with the Pilot Rebecca Shaw 25K per year. I’d prefer to see middle mnagemment stream lined and CEOs take a sizable cut before fares were inceased.

Yes, I would be ready to pay more to be sure we have pilots that are better qualified and trained and less worn out by the long hours.
I heard the playback of the cockpit conversation that was going on during the period when the pilot and copilot are only supposed to be discussing the takeoff process (up to 10,000 feet, I think). It is outrageous to hear the conversation that they were having.
But this should not become a fare resetting just to compensate the pilots more. The FAA needs to review the whole situation of airline safety or “unsafety” that now exists due to deregulation, airline greed, and failed government.
The planes are all way overcrowded. The seat spaces are way too small. These conditions are completely unsafe and should be made safer by reducing the seat crowding on planes. Increase the space per person by 50% and increase the fares by 50%. The revenue to the airline would be the same, and the flight would be safer, especially when an evacuation becomes necessary. The flight would also be less painful to the passengers, who are now crowded like sardines. There would also be fewer sicknesses spread on the planes with less overcrowding.
Deregulation of the airlines has been a complete failure–just another government failure. Airline travel was much safer and much less unpleasant, before deregulation. Deregulation was completely unnecessary and a major government mistake. So, come on FAA and government, let’s get up off your big cans, earn your lavish salaries and benefits, and fix these problems that you created by deregulation.

I believe that anybody who works should make a decent living wage. There are too many people in this world today who make a lot more than thier worth of contribution to humanity. Rebecca or anybodies pay does not ensure my or anybody elses saftey. Our wealth distribution of in this country and globally is totally off the mark. We as communitties need to look at our basic needs as people and pay for those equally. Why does a doctor get paid more than a farmer, when it is the root of our health of that the farmer cultivates?

To: GIVE ME A BREAK…….Oh please. You know that when you take a job as a pilot or flight attendant it’s better to live close to the base you are hired out of. If you can’t afford to live in that base then you should find a job that is closer to your income range. I have traveled for work for 11 years now. And YES I have had to fly in the day before I start my job just so I could get the proper rest before I started the next day. I have lost as much family time as any flight attendant or pilot so I’m not going to cry you a river.
Again the problem with this copilot’s pay was she worked for the regional airline. Their pay SUCKS. And who’s fault is that? The CEO and the pilot union.

I would not pay more. It’s rediculous to think the co-pilot could not find somewhere affordable to live that would have been a shorter commute. Plenty of people live on less than her salary and they have to live where they can afford to live.

Ask most people if they would go to a surgeon who had a second job. For all of you people that have never done the job I have lived in planes, slept in hangars and done anything I could do to get to the point where I am. I have never seen a pay increase just pay loss since I have been at AA.. Even before 9/11. You will pay a pro player millions but if your in the back of my plane you dont care if Im tired BECAUSE YES I DO HAVE A SECOND JOB!!!

How much is a pilot worth to the passengers they serve when the airplane is flying?
I’d say more than 24k.

I am a regional pilot. I made about 24k last year. I spent over 300 hours away from home last month. Only during my 87 flying hours was I paid. I have been in some form of training for 9 years. I have 8 different pilot certificates. I have flown over two thousand hours. I have over 60k of college debt. My union is almost useless because a loophole in the law that doesn’t allow us to strike properly for the wages we deserve. Because of the seniority system I can not leave my current airline for fear of starting all over again. My life is falling apart, because I decided to chase my dream. The airlines know this. They know that I want to go to work, and I can never leave. I do not want to make a million dollars. I do however want the respect of my passengers, my nearly homeless brethren, and the FAA. I want to sleep more then 5 hours a night. Everyone should damn the current set of laws that allow the airline to push us around. I recently was on a trip that gave to give my crew nearly 9 hours of “Scheduled Rest”. The “Rest” was scheduled to begin upon our arrival at the airport, not the pillow. Our flight was delayed, then we had to wait for passengers to deplane(including the ones that have to wait up to 10 minutes for wheelchairs), then wait to catch a shuttle bus to a hotel 20 minutes away, try to sleep, then get up early because the hotel van only travels to the airport every 30 minutes, pass through security, and arrive at the gate in enough time to preflight and run 6 checklists. My 9 hours of “REST” turned into little more then 5 hours, during the middle of the day. How could anyone function after six days in a row of that kind of abuse. I think sleep deprivation was used in “Get-mo” as a form of torture for terrorist that wanted to hijack our airplanes. It seems to be more effective when used by crew scheduling to make those same aircraft crash anyway. Public perception is important, behind the shiny wings and fancy epaulets, is a person that makes a fraction of what he or she used to, or deserves to. I am responsible for YOUR life. I deserve to make at least a decent wage.

well said Airliner, well said. ALL TRUE!

That’s because all they care about is whats in it for me..

Almost 25% of commercial pilots will be retiring in the next three years. There is going to be a very acute shortage of qualified pilots at that time. When this happens regional airlines in particular will be scrapping the bottom of the barrell to try and find qualified applicants with even 300 hours. The only way to attract young men and women to this profession is to make it worth the time, effort and expense, by raising saleries. Right now no one wants to spend 50-100K for training,then spend another 2-3 years building time, all for a starting job that pays 18-23K. It will take several more years before that pilot even makes enough to actually pay some debt off. If you want some of our best and brightest working in this profession you had better pay them or they will choose another vocation.

As an regional pilot I can say that I routinely worked 14-16 hour days, with a two hour drive to work (because i made so little that i had move back in with my parents). By the time I got to a hotel room, i had often been in my uniform 18+ hours. Some overnights offered time for only 3-5 hours of sleep. Before crews are able to check out and go home on their last day of a grueling trip, they are often forced to work mandatory overtime(another overnight), or risk being fired. This type of scheduling can keep a pilot away from home for 24+ days per month and lead to a chronic cycle of fatigue.
Adjusted for duty day many regional pilots make less than minimum wage.

That last comment was a little harsh here. Shaw was a Co-pilot, ultimately the Captain is responsible. Additionally, if you listen to the CVR from the last two minutes of flight you will here Shaw making configuration changes and trying to address the problem while the Captain mutters…. uh, uh, uh again and again! Maybe Shaw was on her way to being a “Sully”. As for the salary issue, let’s just say I have more qualifications than both pilots onboard 3407 and I choose to only flight instruct, occasionally flying corporate trips. This is because I actually make more money running my own business (non aviation) and flying maybe 10 hours a week, just for fun. The last time I slept in a hotel and got less than five hours of sleep was on a vacation trip that I flew myself to in my own plane.
I made the decision to pursue a non aviation career as a primary source of income over six years ago and yet to regret my choice. Just a personal example to you young regional pilots. You also have a choice. I hope the airlines learn from my story as well. I am certain you are missing the opportunity to have many talented individuals safely lead your companies from the cockpit because they are too busy applying their gifts on more worthwhile careers. As I always say jokingly with my airline friends…. Maybe when I retire at forty I’ll join you in the airlines for a few years. That’s the only way to happily be an airline pilot.

Dash8Pilot – Shaw was not flying the airplane. Maybe if she was, it wouldn’t have gotten in the situation in the first place. Who knows? Errors were made by both crewmembers, but why are you picking on the PNF first officer?? By the way, if you are a decent stick pilot, you know that Sully had nowhere else to go and had everything work right for him.

Pay has 100% to do with safety. If Rebecca was paid more she could live in Newark. Ever try eat at an airport for under $10. All your going to get is McDonalds. Not exactly performance enhancement food. How about flying a 20 million dollar airplane and worrying about paying your student loans, (Most have 100k for pilot ratings). How about the 16 hrs duty day the FAA allows. I routinely fly 14 hr days. Over 8 hrs is legal if the weather is bad. Make sense? How about flying all weekends/holidays/early mornings 4am/ late nights 2am…for $20k. Its pathetic. Ask our CEO how many times he has worked Christmas in the past 10 years. The answer is 0. All’s good as long as the ticket price is $69.

Pilots should be compensated adequately. The problem lies with the fact that people nowdays expect to cross the country and pay just a couple of ben franklins. To add insult to injury, they expect red carpet service. Pilots wages have not come up to par like in other professions. Even a handful of companies that fly jet equipment(mainline jets not regional jets). do not pay adequately and have recorded record profits. The aviation profession in the USA has gone down the pits unfortunately. As for the Colgan crew I will not make any judgements on them or their actions. I’ll let the NTSB do their job. May they rest in peace.

What drives the airline industry? The consumers—”I wanna be carted half way across the globe with unrivaled speed, comfort, and safety. And oh, by the way, I’m not willing to pay for that service!!!”
As the saying goes, “Crap in equals crap out.”
Don’t forget when you’re out there pointing fingers, how many fingers point right back.

I am also the wife of a regional pilot and agree with all that the first two wives have said. My husband used to work for a decent airline and made good pay. Then they were bought out by a mainline and life has gone downhill since. It’s about about cutting costs, no matter what. Talk about not letting pilots commute anymore is crazy. While I would love it if my husband no longer had to commute to NY, I know that there is no way we could afford to live there. I’m tired of people saying that they should live at base. His company has opened and closed multiple bases over the past three years, do they expect us to pick up and move our family each time? I take most issue with company management and their seeming desire to totally screw over the flight crews in terms of salary, scheduling, and morale. Ask any of them at one airline which is about to have their pass privleges reduced so that they become inferior to mainliners. And I keep hearing that FO Shaw should have called in fatigued – please, most regionals will not allow such an act to go unpunished, regardless of what they tell the NTSB.

I think that it should be clear to the general public that the increase in their ticket price does not have to be a significant one. At the regional level a increase in total ticket price of $3-$4 could significantly improve the base salaries and quality of life for all the required crew members. Take for example a 50 passenger regional jet. By regulation to operate that aircraft you need 3 crew members (Captain, First Officer, and Flight Attendant). By increasing the ticket price $3 per passenger and giving it directly to the crew would equal to $150 extra PER FLIGHT for each crew member!!! If a flight crew flies 4 flights a day that is an extra $600. I think First Officer Rebecca Shaw would have been able to move out of her parents house and live comfortably in base on that increase in salary.
So I re-ask the question to the general public: Would you be prepared to pay $3-$4 more for your ticket to ensure airline flight crews were better compensated?

I agree, the public (non flying) stayed on for 35 mins to turn their nose up at pilots, flight attendants etc, when they have no clue what the heck they are talking about. All they want is cheap cheap cheap, and whine when there is a small maintenance issue and throw a fit like alittle two year old onboard an aircraft and demand they are “silver elite” or some bullcrap, if you dont like it DRIVE, other than that shut up.. i have a family I would like to go home to on my days off.

You know what Im tired hearing in the media and from people? That theres two types of pilots the first class guy and the second class guys. In their arrogant understanding of the industry they believe the first class pilot goes straight to the majors while the rest go to the regionals. This fantasy that the regionals is for second rate pilots needs to stop. We’re all aware that no one can ever guarantee you a mainline job so the myth that the regionals is merely a stepping stone is wrong. It is a regional career which can possibly turn into the stepping stone for that better job. And as a professional career, pilots must be compensated properly. The passengers across this country are just as much at fault for this as the Ceo’s. If you cant afford to fly then you shouldnt fly. We shouldn’t bring down safety and pay for pilots just some broke family can fly. That may sound cruel but its the truth. If you cant afford to fly you shouldn’t. We cant keep cutting cost the way we are for these people while risking our lives and others.

You know what I have learned through the few business classes I have taken lately? The numbers that these “decision makers” are looking at to increase their profit are a bit deceptive, even to themselves. Employee cost is just one of those line items. Other operating cost that can be reduced don’t trickle into their financial statements so clearly. Just on a day to day operation, I see our airline bleeding money in what may seem insignificant ways, but they add up. The problem is the managers are focused on the wrong performance numbers and don’t enforce the basics. Its the CYA syndrome. They are more interested in not rocking the boat and covering their on asses than actual making the operation smooth and efficient. This is a very real and glaring cause of why many airlines go belly up. Too reactive and not proactive.

Do people understand that we only get paid from engine start up to shut down, and the hours spent during preflight and post flight are not compensated? I think most normal jobs include a 40 hr work week, not to mention they go home every night to their house and family while we pay for a hotel room or go to our crash pads on non commutable trips. Try sleeping in a recliner in the crew lounge because a hotel room 12 nights a month is out of the question at 40-120 bucks a night before flying a 20 million dollar airliner filled with people in bad weather at night time. If I got paid 160hrs a month then I would not consider pay a safety hazard. Low pay translates to a lack of sleep, and if that stress leaks into the cockpit, it will degrade safetey.

Wiley Post says above: “you all want the tickets for pennies”.
Wiley, see my earlier comments. I do not want tickets for pennies. I am willing to pay 2, 3, or even 4 times the current fares, if I get something for it: better service. No more crowding into a cabin that is a sardine can and therefore unsafe and unhealthy. I despise flying because of the way I am treated by airlines. I only fly because my job requires it.

Kind advice to pilots:
I have read through all the pilots’ comments above. Yes, pilots, flight attendants, gate agents, and passengers all have a hard life due to the condition of airline travel–thanks to failed government, deregulation, and corporate greed. The airlines are overcrowded, unclean, unhealthy, and therefore unsafe.
I cannot imagine why anyone would want to work for an airline–especially as a pilot or flight attendant, where one would have to spend so much time on planes. I despise being on planes as a passenger and would despise it all the more as a pilot or flight attendant. At least the flight attendants get to move around during the flights and are not confined to a sardine seat for hours at a time.
I started working as a sophomore in high school and worked as a janitor, a dishwasher, a busboy, a waiter, at a car wash, as a teaching assistant, a research assistant, a student engineer, and an engineering assistant. By the time I finished grad school, I had already been working for 12 years. I would prefer any of these jobs to being a pilot. I also now work in a job that demands very long, hard hours. But, I prefer it to being a pilot, even if pilots made six figures.
For all the pilots that said they are going back to school above, I caution you that education (which I invested very heavily in—3 engineering degrees and an MBA) does not produce the kind of jobs that one expects, based on what you are told in school. Most graduates end up way underemployed, regardless of their field (with the exception of physicians and government employees). And most non-government employers treat you very badly.
But, I still think that you will be far better off getting out of piloting. I cannot imagine why you wanted to be a pilot in the first place. Time spent on airplanes is a forfeiture of part of your life. The less time you spend on planes, the richer your life will be.

I am a regional airline pilot. I am 80K in debt from training (University and flight training). I must use credit cards to help buy food for my family. I live in the hood where 3 people were shot outside my front door last year. When my wife lost her job we had to go on food stamps. Yet I fly a 70 passenger jet safely and professionally 20 days a month. Not for the money or to be a “cool pilot”, but because I love to fly. My family and I make sacrifices so that I may enjoy what I do. So think about that when you are complaininig about being a half hour late.
Would more pay make it safer? Not much. Would more pay make it ethical? You bet.

my father is a delta pilot and there was an internal study done in the company that found that if everyone that buys plane tickes, if they pay just five dollars more for their tickets, it would cover two pilots and three flight attendants salleries and as a current resident of buffalo that lives less that a mile from where the crash happened, this is truely a waake up call that these pilots are being pushed to their breaking points. they have hundreds of peoples lives in their hands on a daily basis, we should help them out too every once and a while!

“Would you be prepared to pay more for your ticket to ensure commercial pilots and co-pilots were better compensated?”
Yes I would. I’ve done so in the past (after de-regulation) and would do so now. Heck, as much as I complain about it, I still pay more for gasoline and taxes than I feel I should!
But how much pilots are compensated is really not the question to ask or the lesson to be learned from Colgan’s incident–there are so many more reasons as to the cause of this accident, of which, I feel pay was a very small part of. These pilots should not have been flying, that’s that. Hindsight being what it is, they just weren’t fit to fly.

It has always been my lifelong dream to be a commercial pilot; fear has stopped me from doing so. I am in a rewarding career and have finished my MBA so I am very proud of where I am but still to this day, when I fly or I come in contact with a pilot, I have a great deal of respect for them. I am 27 years old, single and no children but I could not imagine making the $ that some of these regional pilots are making, I would be homeless! I respect any pilot, whether mainline or regional because they have the responsibility of getting me from point A to point B ALIVE. Yes the cheap fares are great but at what expense? I currently live in Buffalo and although I didn’t know anyone personally on doomed Continental flight, it was a tragedy for the entire region. In my lifetime, I can’t recall a major airliner crash with as many fatalities and to hear some of the comments about those pilots really show the dark and sick side of many Americans. Anyone who has the responsibility of my life had better be alert, competent and well compensated. My hat goes off to all of the pilots out there who carry us safely to our destinations. I pray that the airlines wake up and start compensating you accordingly.

Absolutely, yes, IF and ONLY IF the increase goes to their pay and training, not the CEO’s bonuses. I would pay more to increase safety for the passengers and morale for the pilots. Workers with low morale notoriously perform worse. If a pilot has to work as a waitress to make ends meet, or can’t pay his student loans and uses credit to pay for food on his salary, do you feel safe in his hands? I am seeing $38 airfares all over the net, yet people complain about $600 fares. I’m sure they run the gamut. Maybe we need to play around less with the numbers and charge what it really costs to fly. Maybe we need to be honest about this and other industries in the US. Maybe we need to do what it takes to insure safety. Maybe some people can drive or take the buses or trains, or not go at all. What is this anyway? You’d rather die than pay more for safe airfare? That’s BS and you know it!