Closing Arguments: Computers in the Cockpit

They shouldn’t be fired. They should be suspended from work and pay. They did place in danger the integrity of the plane, but no harm no foul like the article says.

They absolutely should lose their job. And they absolutely did put the plane in danger. Not only had they taken the plane to an area where it was not supposed to be, but military jets were about to take off because of fear that this could be a hijacking. What if they had hit another plane, because they were not paying attention.
This is not “just” no harm no foul. They not only got distracted. They completely ignored radio calls that they said they heard.
They were irresponsible and should not be allowed to be in control of a plane, or the safety of that many people.

They should absolutely be fired. They took the lives of 144 people into their hands when they conducted personal business on personal laptops. It is a shame that people pay a high price to fly and have to worry about what is happening in the cockpit.

They violated airline and FAA rules ,put passengers lives in possible danger. Luckily nothing happened.Without a doubt they should be fired and lose their licenses to fly.

A suspension and retraining are in order but not termination. To err is human and no injuries or deaths were involved. A strong inquiry should be made into how Airline restructuring, merges and financial cutbacks has affected the personal life of these extremely hard working professionals.

Yes they should be fired… Look how many lives they put in danger.

Of course they should be fired, no question about it. The job of a pilot is to be in control of the airplane at all times. Obviously they were not in control and were not even paying attention to the world they were in. New airliners can be programed by the crew to fly to a designated airport, land on a designated runway and stop at the end of the runway. The pilots then taxi it to the terminal. That must be what these guys were thinking about while they napped. Laptops Ha

I think that the pilots should loose their jobs in order to set an example to all flight crews and pilots. An aircraft flying 30,000 feet above sea level is no joke or something to take it lightly, and responsibilities should be taken seriously. That type of behavior is what causes catastrophic events with fatalities and usually passengers don’t even know that these things are going on in the cockpit. I would not want to be on a flight with distracted pilots.

are you people completely daft?
of course they should be fired and lose their commercial licenses forever.
This was not a mistake. They intentionally decided to engage in unlawful and dangerous behavior. The list of reasons why this was a bad idea and why they should pay the price goes on and on…

These two pilots collectively have a good number of years in flying time. As Chesly Sussenberger stated, we need to hold on to and attract experienced pilots. And as Nance stated, with the instrumentality on these planes I guess it could get too easy to get too comfortable.
However, these men are responsible for the lives on those planes and they MUST! draw a severe reprimand because no one will ever know what could have culminated in that incident, or what can happen should this occur again.
Losing their jobs should not be the case unless this is a reoccurence.

These pilots should definitely be fired and their licenses suspended. They showed a blatant disregard for their responsibilities to their passengers and the airline. They showed that they shouldn’t be trusted with people’s lives. They certainly knew the consequences of their actions.

The pilots are guilty of poor situational awareness. They should be receive sanctions, but could return to flight status. After all, Sullenberger and Skiles are back in the cockpit after an egregious case of poor situational awareness on flight 1549 when they failed to see and avoid a very visible flock of migrating Canada Geese. The Buffalo crash was also a case of poor situational awareness. Another flight a few weeks later at Buffalo (I was on it) nearly crashed because a possibly fatigued pilot came in too low and slow and had to pull up at the last minute and try again.

The pilots must be fired, of course! The real argument should be whether or not to also fire the flight attendants who apparently dozed through the flyover without bothering to search for life in the cockpit.

this is in response to monica, a fine is a fine huh. what if your loved one was on that plane, you would be singing a different song. I say fine them, then fire them. that not only endangered the lives of the people on the plane, they endanged people on the ground also. they deserve more than a smack on the wrist, such as suspension or a fine, they deserve, to be F-I-R-E-D!

many people use their laptops during the course of daily business for personal and non personal reasons..in this case however, what this crew did was not just unprofessional, but a distraction from their assigned job..according to reports they completely ignored the air traffic controllers intentionally to talk and use the computer and inconvenienced 144 passengers because of it, let alone the air national guard, the tsa, and the entire air traffic control system! this is akin to someone talking on a cell phone or texting while driving and just ignoring stop signs,other drivers and police..a selfish attitude at best as well as a scare to many..these men are paid to do a job and they should do it..they had just come off a 19 hour layover so they were not tired and could have conducted “business” at that time or when they landed..a reprimand is not enough..they should be fired (pss..i am a retired airline employee and i care about the travelling publics opinion of airline personnel)..

PC’s in a cockpit must not bother anyone. It does NOT scare me nearly as much is alledged by US Congressmen playing solitare, being on FaceBook, or searching for ballgame results instead of listening to a colleague presenting items for “careful” or “due diligence” consideration.
It is no wonder the Congressmen have no time to read the bills they pass. They waste too much time instead of taking time to read the bills. If they spent that time reading the bills they pass which become law and drain citizen’s wallets.
Compared to the Congress I’d let the pilots off the hook. By comparison the pilots only broke one company’s rules and cost a very insignificat amout of money and time, no one died. Congress wastes lives, HUGH amounts of money, and some even break laws and are never punished by the judicial system or their constituents. I’d keep the pilots and fire the congress members found playing stuipd games on the PC’s during open sessions!

These pilots should be fired. They put the lives of everybody on board at risk by ignoring all calls. The myriad of things that could have gone wrong is mind blowing and the fact the it didn’t is simply a miracle. They not only violated company policy they qualify for the award of those with the least common sense. And when I’m on a plane I don’t want a pilot with NO common sense piloting it!

There is no question the pilots should be fired. If they only get a slap on the wrist, who knows what other pilots think they can get away with. Pilots are responsible for many lives, and the next time some pilots are irresponsible may cost many people their lives. FIRE THEM!

They should not only be fired – they should lose their licenses, for several reasons. First and foremost – they endangered the plane and passengers by not only deviating from their flight plan, but also from being out of contact with FAA Control for over an hour. I am sure other planes had to deviate because they were in the wrong place. Two, besides the costs to the other airplanes (extra fuel, etc.), they cost the government thousands of dollars (and countless man-hours) dealing with what they thought was a hi-jacking. Lastly, our system depends on people telling the truth during an investigation. If the pilots really were on their computers, one of them would have heard one of the many radio calls from both the FAA and their own airline. The fact that they didn’t proves they are lying. Whatever went on, using their computers is a cover story to try and make the situation better. They made it worse by lying, and filing false reports with a governmental agency. That is perjury.

If the pilots are terminated then so should the flight attendants for not checking in with the pilots every 30 minutes! Having been a flight attendant I know too well how “senior” flight attendants show great disrespect for flight crew. All they want to do is hurry up with the cabin service so they can hide out in the galley and read their People magazine instead of attending to their customers and the guys up front. At my former airline we were required to call up to the cockpit every 30 minutes to check in and see if they needed anything. The pilots made a mistake, not by using their laptops, but by missing a radio call and then flying out of radio contct and not paying attention. But the fact that this NWA cabin crew did not call the cockpit for almost 90 minutes shows a general lack of respect and laziness.

Absolutely fire them. People are fired for much less in ordinary office jobs, what these pilots did was ridiculous. For all those who believe that a fine will suffice, would you feel this way if YOU were one of the passengers. What about if the “next” time something like this happens, no one responds appropriately because the pilots might be “playing with their laptops”.

I believe that they should be suspended without pay and face disciplinary action and perhaps be put on “probation”, I do not think that they should loose their license.

What if? Just because nothing happened this time, what if they had flown into a no-fly zone such as the national capitol area and didn’t hear the warnings on the radio before the plane with 100+ passengers gets shot down. They don’t need to lose their jobs, but they should never, ever be back in the cockpit again. They should be capable of doing other jobs at Delta/Northwest like baggage handler or gate agent without falling asleep.

Yes, they should be fired for all the above comments (danger, suspected hijacking threat, no contact with air control, disregard of rules). I’ll be the first to comment that a non-serious but irksome result is the inconvenience of having passengers miss connections, attend to tired babies, need a smoke, miss meeting appointments. The airline companies are hurt by loss of public trust. “YOU’RE FIRED!”

Looks like most people get it, but somewhat disturbing that a few think these dudes should ever fly passengers again. My guess is the boggers who feel they pilots deserve a break don’t fly much themselves.
United allows their flight crews to monitor flight communications on the headset at your seat. When the pilot lets the passengers listen in, it gives me good confidence in that flight crew. When the pilot doesn’t give us that, it’s a signal to me that the flight crew has self doubts, not a warm feeling.
Just think had these pilots had that system, one of the passengers could have hit the call button to ask the stewardesses to wake up the cockpit.

If you terminate the pilots, then they wont get a chance to redeem themselves. They are veteran so they should perform their best. They need a suspension and a retraining. Its hard to find good pilots.

Of course, they should be fired. Immediately! They should never again be allowed at the controls of any aircraft. I worry about just having these clowns driving cars on our highways. These are the same kind of idiots that will talk on a cell phone or text while they are driving.
If ground control had given them a critical instruction to avoid another plane, they would have missed it. They are fortunate that this did not turn into a disaster. It points to a new need–surveillance cameras in cockpits, so that someone on the ground can watchdog pilots in the cockpit.
As to your contention that there was no harm, that is nonsense. The passengers were flown 300 extra miles that were not needed. This was a major delay to them. Fuel was needlessly wasted. Air traffic controller attention was diverted away from other planes. Alarms were going off in the military. And you think there was no harm!
Fire these clowns now. I will never feel safe flying again, if I know that one of these turkeys might be in the cockpit.
And, their story about what happened is just a big lie. Do they really think we are that stupid? Come on.

By my count, so far 38 say “FIRE THEM” and 14 think there is some valid reason to let the guys off the hook. I find that startling that one-third just don’t get how serious this was.
This should be black and white. Just because there was “no harm done” is not mitigating. We certainly don’t need to keep incompetence in the sky because of any pilot shortage, there are many others out there willing and just as talented.
And what kind of precedent would letting them off the hook set? The “next time” pilots go and hour and 18 minutes off course, we let them off, too?
Hopefully there won’t be a next time.

^^What exactly do you expect pilots to be doing during the cruise portion of flight? The autopilot is on and the flight management computer is guiding the aircraft. So again, what exactly do you expect the pilots to be doing?^^
Monitoring the panel and the outside environment and being alert to radio calls.
^^Last time I checked pilots were required to be good at multitasking, so sitting there staring at the instruments would lead to possible complacency in my opinion.^^
They never sit there and “stare” at the panel.
^^ Yet the public, thanks to outrageous media sensationalism, thinks that a pilot should be “working” at all times during flight…^^
That’s cuz they should be. THAT’s the job.
^^…yet fails to realize that pilots are only monitoring systems during cruise.^^
It’s an alert monitoring, not a distracted monitoring.
^^ Using this logic, I guess pilots should not be allowed to have meal…^^
They can eat and monitor and listen. They admit they were doing nothing of the kind during the flight of 188.
^^… go to the restroom…^^
One flight crewmember at a time may go to the toilet. the remaining flight crewmember then must wear the oxygen mask while the other is gone.
In this case, both of them were mentally “gone.”
^^They screwed up, but get real guys!^^
The law is the law. Safety is safety. They compromised safety and broke the law. Their breaking the law was not insignificant. They were distracted pilots, much like distracted drivers, only worse.

IFR Magazine once addressed the little matter of the ATC’s cold, monitoring computer called “The Snitch.” It chases down altitude deviations, for one thing.
IFR suggested honesty in reporting flying mistakes cuz The Snitch is gonna get you anyway, and that it’s better to confess up front, giving The Snitch no satisfaction in bring you to your knees.
It said, though, that there are times when the pilot can fudge and avoid the paperwork and interviews, given that these little things can save everybody a lotta trouble.
The article suggested one scenario:
You’re pokin’ along in your old dog of a 182 when, all of a sudden, your bloodshot eyes bug out and focus real nice and 20-20 sharp on the altimeter to find that you somehow “misplaced” some-a thta altitude ATC graciously gave you, saying, with urgency, “Damn! Where did that 300 feet go!!??”
Do you immediately wake up the controller and tell him that you’re a dummy? No. You firewall the throttle and get back up where you belong and where the controller thought you were the last time he was awake.
Now, by that time, though, the wide-awake Snitch has also focused real nice and sharp on your altitude “misplacement” and woke up the controller who, also wanting not to be a dummy, says, “Hey, you! What’s goin’ on up there!?”
You say, “I-uhhhhhhh dropped my pencil.”
The controller, having fumbled around for his pink slips to write you up, finds this reasonable and he’s happy. The Snitch is happy, and you are happy cuz the controller and The Snitch are happy, and everybody is one with Nature and all is right with the world.
This, though, is a mistake, not intentional. The NWA pilots were intentional. They knew what they were doing, and it had nothing to do with flying that airplane.

While the idea of a pilot being distracted makes me cringe, I think that employers should realize that layoffs, mergers, hours reductions and schedule changes are very distracting to even the most professional employee. Difficult schedules make it hard to do your job well. I have heard of similar behaviour in a hospital recently, which is also scary. Maybe employers should realize that people are human, not just human resources.

Mr. Incredible,
With all due respect, airline salaries have never approched $400k, especially at PAL, where the average pilot salary is the equivalent of $3000 per month!
Back in 2000 United had the highest Captain pay at approximately $355 per flight hour (1000 hours max/year). Delta matched this pay +1%, but neither rate lasted long after 9/11. Today, FedEx and UPS top the charts for airline pay, but again nothing is close to $400k, especially overseas.
Regardless, as a former Captain at a major US airline with over 35 years experience, I can sympathize with the 2 NWA pilots. When I retired I was flying long haul international flights with an augmented crew on up to 16 hour flights. To stay alert we would read, take controlled naps (allowed for a long time overseas but not allowed by the FAA yet), among other things. We were out of radio contact for long periods of time with the only sound coming from the air outside. A truely damanding and exhausting job at the end of the day, and one the public will never comprehend unless they were in the cockpit with us.
We may never know the truth in this case, and I have a hard time believing they were both distracted by laptops for so long without monitoring their instruments. Contrary to posts above, at no time did they claim to be playing around on laptops, or playing video games! Comparing this incident and a pilot’s responsibilities to that of a bus driver is also irrelevant. Fall asleep at the wheel of a bus and it crashes, but fall asleep at the controls of a plane and the autopilot continues on course (the sky is a big place!). In this case, ATC cleared the airspace of any conflicting traffic, but once the aircraft left the radio frequency range it was communicating on, contact would have been difficult, especially if they did not have the speaker turned up loud enough and were not monitoring “guard”.
Thus, reviewing company information or otherwise is acceptable as long as someone maintains vigilence and situational awareness. Even if their laptops were being used, to not include an instrument panel scan every so often seems quite suspicous and leads me to think there were other circumstances.
However, it is clear to me that the FAA was trying to make an example of these 2 experienced and veteran pilots by revoking the certificates that they worked so hard for.
In my opinion, termination would have sufficed for violating company policy, especially in today’s job market and lack of airline jobs.

I fly, but I do not automatically credit pilots when they deserve admonition. The “clique” doesn’t like it, but that’s tuff.
If distracted driving [two dimensions] is dangerous, so much more is distracted flying [three dimensions].
If they went over an hour past Minneapolis, their destination, they should’ve been aware and preparing for descent and landing on the other side. They must’ve been playin’ with their computers long before Minneapolis. We’re just hearin’ about the flyover into Wisconsin.
Anyways…
FAA, revoking their certificates [there are no licenses], cites
1. reckless ops, and
2. ignoring FARs, company policy, instructions and I would add training.
Company policy is part of airline operations, and is as good as law cuz ops specs is part of what got the airline its certificate.
Had they been monitoring the flight, they would have answered radio calls. That they didn’t answer them says that they didn’t do anything else cuz their minds were focused on those laptops.
Everything that becomes part of a pilot from first training on up says DO NOT BE DISTRACTED. Everything tells the pilot not to focus on one thing, rather on several things which will cause accurate interpretation. Not paying attention to the radio calls tells us that they were not paying attention to the flight on other levels cuz tghe radio calls would have triggered some action. The laptops had nothing to do with the flight.
Maybe I wouldn’t fire them. If I were chief pilot, I might suspend them for such a long time that they would have to go almost to private pilot training all over again; I would require them to go through the interview process again for sure, and let the hiring panel and airline execs decide. They would have to jump through so many hoops that it would make them dizzy…or dizzier.

Marissa, you sound like the typical gate agent with tremendous animosity toward pilots! Pilots at major airlines USED to make big bucks, and their experience, training, and responsibility justified this pay. Today’s pilots make 50+% less than just a few years ago, and most have lost their pensions. On average, maybe $65k for copilots to $140k for captains, and half those figures for the regional airlines. My son made $16k his first year and qualified for food stamps! It improved to $35k max! People are too quick to believe that all pilots make the top pay rate published, when in reality only about 2-3% earn the top pay.
Regarding radio contact and not answering the radio for over an hour — the plane obviously went out of radio contact for the frequency assigned to them! Therefore it would have been impossible to make contact on the last known frequency because they were out of range and impossible for the crew to answer any radio calls because none would have been recieved!

All opinions expressed are quite interesting and while my own post(s) may fall short I still can’t find basis to excuse the demonstrated irresponsibility of these two “experienced” Pilots. Too many irregularities occured to mitigate their behavior. For all the technologies that are incorporated in modern Airliners I’m sure they could fly “themselves.” Nonetheless, all these systems require some level of Pilot reaction or confirmation. Communication, more than anyting, requires constant attention, feedback and response. The fact that the Flight was out of contact for a reported 88 minutes has to be disturbing in and of itself and defies explanation. From the instant an Airliner taxi’s for take off to the time it lands at it’s destination the Pilots are assigned numerous frequencies through assigned altitudes and regions through their assigned flight path to ensure continuous uninterrupted contact. To miss these ATC Comm assignments has to be all but impossible unless both Pilots were unconscious or their radio(s) wwere turned off. ATC had to be all but screaming at them, not to mention military attempts to gain their attention. (Car 54, where are you?)Irresponsibility will cancel out experience everytime. The FAA reacted responsibly given these Pilots irresponsibility.

Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
It strikes me as odd that many still believe the following:
1. They were surfing the web – NWA aircraft do not have this feature!
—————————————-
Irrelevant. They were focused on something that has nothing to do with flying an airplane.
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
2. Pilots were playing video games – really? REALLY??
—————————————-
Again, irrelevant. They were not minimally attentive to what they were there to do.
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
3. Pilots should have answered the radio – YES but only if they were in range of the last frequency given!
—————————————-
Again, irrelevant. They say they heard radio chatter. Had they been aware, they would’ve noticed that they weren’t part of any conversation for a long time. They should’ve checked in.
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
4. Pilots make big bucks – define “big bucks”?
—————————————-
Not necessary. My argument doesn’t rest on specific numbers. It’s enough to know that they make big bucks. Everybody knows, generally, what “big bucks” is.
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
This incident shows several breakdowns in crew coordination.
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There was no breakdown in flight crew coordination since both of them were focused on their computers.
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
The flight attendants ignored checking in with the pilots…
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The stewards and stewardesses are not babysitters. They are not there to monitor the pilots. They are not in the navigation loop. They had no way to know, navigationally, what was going on.
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
…the pilots ignored ATC…
—————————————-
Didn’t YOU say that they were out of radio range? So, according to YOUR scenario, what was there to ignore?
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
…ATC reacted very slowly in notifying the military.
—————————————-
Define “very slowly.”
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
The media tried these pilots without due process…
—————————————- The Constitution doesn’t require the media to give Due Process.
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
…over sensationalized this incident…
—————————————- What’s “over” sensationalized?
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
… (what about the Delta 767 that landed on the taxiway in ATL last week? How come that isnt being talked about?).
—————————————-That was last week. Different criteria for what is news.
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
The FAA over-reacted due to media sensationalism and revoked their certs -…
—————————————-FAA is not in the habit of taking what the media says into account.
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
What about the AA pilots that crashed in Little Rock, or the drunk America West pilots, or the Republic pilots that almost collided with NWA in LAX the other day, or the Comair pilot who survived in Louiville — none of them had their certs revoked!
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FAA determines action based on analysis of each, individual situation. No telling what the specifics of each, individual situation are.
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
The actions by the feds and media are a complete joke!
—————————————-Translation: “FAA and the media should’ve come to me for input.”
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
The NWA pilots messed up!
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Uhhh, yyeah-uh!
Posted by: Joe | Oct 28, 2009 4:37:34 PM
Taking their livelihood away does not fit the crime!
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I’m sure FAA will take high consideration of your input.

I agree with the person who said
“FLIGHT ATTENDANTS ARE NOT BABYSITTERS”
we do not question pilots on their actions nor do we take part in the navigation of the aircraft.
Most of all we don’t call the pilots every 5 minutes & ask them what they are doing……….

They should be fired for negligence on the job. Additionally, operational procedures and quality assurance steps at the corporate management level should be audited and examed to come up with “lessons learned” so this will not happen ever again. I think management should be held highly accountable also -why would PC’s be allowed in the cockpit?

==…allowing PCs in the cockpit is not an issue.==
It is to NWA.
== Many airlines use laptops in the cockpit for weight and balance and performance calculations as well as keeping all the company manuals on computers instead of heavy books that take up space.==
Then, these guys can go and work for those airlines.
The flight deck has on the MEL — Minimum Equipment List. They do not carry the entire manual for the aircraft. That’s why they got a link to maintenance.
== …while many of you are all joking about this small by comparison story you fail to realize that these two pilots are HUMAN BEINGS with a VERY LONG record of experience that was untarnished until now.==
Had there been a wreck, the families of the victims would’ve been gratified to know this.
== Whether or not you feel you are infallible have some $%^&&()g compassion…==
For what?
==… if only for the fact that these guys just lost the only (non transferrable) career they have ever known…==
They should’ve known better. They didn’t, or they ignored knowing better.
==…and none of your ignorant anonymous message board bashing can compare to what they are probably internalizing on their own right now.==
It’s their own doing. Why should we fell guilty?
==Let’s hope the ALPA people are insisting on in depth [sic] counseling for these guys.==
Not my bidness.
==There has been enough sorrow in this economy when people think they have lost everything…nevermind seeing the whole world against them.==
It’s not for them that we have animosity for their boneheadedness, rather for those who think they can get away doing the same thing. Our displeasure is for their instruction.
==These guys’ lives aren’t jokes…==
They should’ve thought of that.
== They didn’t kill anyone…==
Irrelevant.
==… (not even close)…==
What’s “close”?
==don’t be part of the lynch mob that could “kill” them.==
Nobody’s thinking about killing them, rather about delivering a lesson to others who think they can get away dong the same thing.
==Think about it. ==
About what that has anything to do with learnin’ these guys and others the lesson?

==To those who think they were having sex with the flight attendants your [sic] an idiot – that doesnt happen -…==
The mindset of thoe idiots is amazing.
==… and if your wondering where they were they were in the cabin taking care of the passengers like we always do!==
I wouldn’t have the job of steard/stewardess for anything.
Karen, you and you cabin workmates have a humongous job to do, wearing a smile as you babysit crybaby, self-important passengers.
BRAVO for the work you do!