EmailThe United States has spent nearly $80 billion to develop the most advanced stealth fighter jet in history, the F-22 Raptor, but the Air Force recently found out firsthand that while the planes own the skies at modern long-range air combat, it is “evenly matched” with cheaper, foreign jets when it comes to old-school dogfighting.
The F-22 made its debut at the international Red Flag Alaska training exercise this June where the planes “cleared the skies of simulated enemy forces and provided security for Australian, German, Japanese, Polish and [NATO] aircraft,” according to an after-action public report by the Air Force. The F-22 took part in the exercise while under strict flying restrictions imposed by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta in light of mysterious, potentially deadly oxygen problems with the planes — problems that the Pentagon believes it has since solved.
READ ABC News Investigation: The F-22′s Fatal Flaws
The Air Force said the planes flew 80 missions during the event “with a very high mission success rate.” However, a new report from Combat Aircraft Monthly revealed that in a handful of missions designed to test the F-22 in a very specific situation – close-range, one-on-one combat – the jet appeared to lose its pricey advantages over a friendly rival, the Eurofighter Typhoon, flown in this case by German airmen.
“We expected to perform less with the Eurofighter but we didn’t,” German air officer Marc Grune said, according to Combat Aircraft Monthly. “We were evenly matched. They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.”
Two other German officers, Col. Andreas Pfeiffer and Maj. Marco Gumbrecht, noted in the same report that the F-22′s capabilities are “overwhelming” when it comes to modern, long-range combat as the stealth fighter is designed to engage multiple enemies well-beyond the pilot’s natural field of vision — mostly while the F-22 is still out of the other plane’s range. Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren’t able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.
“But as soon as you get to the merge…” Pfeiffer said, referring to the point at which fighters engage in close-up dogfighting, “in that area, at least, the Typhoon doesn’t necessarily have to fear the F-22 in all aspects… In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22, with advantages in some aspects.”
In response to the report, a spokesperson for the Air Force, Lt. Col. Tadd Sholtis, told ABC News that one-on-one combat is only one way to evaluate an aircraft’s capabilities and said it’s not “necessarily the most relevant to every scenario.”
“The F-22 is conceived and employed as part of an integrated force that provides offensive capabilities that make close engagements far less likely while retaining the ability to handle close engagements in tandem with other fighters,” he said.
Air Force Gen. John Jumper, one of the few airmen to have flown both aircraft before he retired in 2005, said that year that it is difficult to compare the F-22 and the Eurofighter.
“They are different kinds of airplanes to start with,” he said, according to an Air Force Print News report. “It’s like asking us to compare a NASCAR car with a Formula 1 car. They are both exciting in different ways, but they are designed for different levels of performance.”
The F-22 “can maneuver with the best of them if it has to, but what you want to be able to do is get into contested airspace no matter where it is,” Jumper said, referring to the F-22′s stealth and supercruise capabilities that are meant to allow the plane to sneak in to hostile territory undetected – an ability the non-stealth Eurofighter lacks.
As for where that contested airspace may be, the Air Force hasn’t said. But in April 2011 an executive for Lockheed Martin, the primary manufacturer of the F-22, told ABC News that the plane could “absolutely” find a home in quick strike missions against countries like Iran or North Korea. Over the weekend, the Air Force deployed a squadron of F-22s to Kadena Air Base in southern Japan just over 800 miles south of the North Korean border — a move that comes three months after an undisclosed number of the stealth jets were deployed to an allied base in the United Arab Emirates, some 200 miles from the Iranian mainland.
The F-22 is the single most expensive fighter jet in history at a total acquisition cost of an estimated $79 billion for 187 planes, meaning each plane costs approximately $420 million. Estimates for the Eurofighter Typhoon – the premier fighter for several allied countries including the U.K., Germany and Italy – put that plane at just under $200 million each, according to an April 2011 report by England’s Public Accounts Committee.
“[Red Flag was] a mission to get to know each other, the first contact by German Eurofighters in the continental U.S.,” Grune said of mock-fighting the F-22s. “We are not planning on facing each other in combat. We want to work together but it was a starter for us to work together. They were impressed, as we were impressed by them.”
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The article seems to be “riding the back” of the headline around 2 pilots who refused to fly the Raptor and came forward. Let’s clear the air first of all, so that no further misleading stories, theories, etc. come to light that really are NOT news at all, or signs of a cover-up, or indications that we’ve somehow wasted money on the Raptor.
Regarding the 2 pilots headline: Firstly, the Raptor’s VEST had an issue, not the aircraft. And the only way to discover that was to (NO, not ground them for fear of a lawsuit or worse) actually FLY them under the conditions causing the problem until the issue was finally understood. Secondly, rather than sticking to the story, journalists jumped on the bandwagon and began quoting very misleading cost figures for the Raptor, while hiding the true defition of the costs (not clever at all) When you design the greatest air dominance platform the world has ever seen, then have the Sec of Def make a foolish decision to end prod. at 1/4 the intended total due to a FALLLING cost, of course the price increases. I haven’t seen that explained in ANY of the articles.
Regarding THIS article: Same thing all over again! Somehow we are supposed to believe that we spent $400Mil+ (again, no explanation of this cost figure! BTW: Research / Development + Manuf. + basing infrastructure + upgrades) for a dud! Absolutely unbelievable that we cancelled the plane due to “high costs”, and on TOP ofthat, the plane is supposed to be invulnerable when it’s handcuffed against one of the best dogfighters out there! Guess what? If I offered you a camo vest to fight in the jungle, and then had you stand out in the middle of the street and lit you up with a pellet gun, that is NOT an indication of a weakness in the vest! This is common sense, nothing more.
Posted by: Raptor1 | July 31, 2012, 12:04 pm 12:04 pm
There is NO doubt in my mind that the next time the EFs come to town, the same tactics they used the last time suddenly don’t work so well (i.e., no “evenly matched”). Why? Because they were there to get a feel for working with each other, simple as that. Operationally, they’re both fantastic aircraft – The fact is, however, that the Raptor is in a league of its own, even without an IRST and Helmet display like the EuroFighter has. It’s a monster, make no mistake about it.
Posted by: Raptor1 | July 31, 2012, 12:11 pm 12:11 pm
Why all the Raptor hate? First the Raptors at the time were limited because they had the oxygen problem and therefor couldn’t safely preform to their fullest. Second the goal of the Raptor is to kill the living s*** out of the enemy beyond visible range which the German Col. said the Raptor was great at. Why are they surprised that in a gun fight a super high end gen 4 fighter could kill an early gen 5? in Vietnam there are examples of gen. 1 planes shooting done Vietnamese gen. 3 MiGs. Gun battles are down almost purely to flyers skill and the Germans are very good flyers
Posted by: Manny | September 8, 2012, 1:06 am 1:06 am
Well said, Manny… The article should be titled: “Raptor overwhelming at long ranges… Close-in and handcuffed, it still competes with the best of the rest.” During any realistic operational deployment, as the Germans make clear to the keen reader, they’d be totally out-classed… UNLESS the Raptors were “held back.” The only question to answer is: In a time of war, would we really put “restrictions” on a capability that EPITOMIZES what air superiority is all about?… Find the enemy, sneak up undetected, fire your shots outside his engagement envelope. Who cares how they did it 50 years ago (sneak up from the rear, close-range gunshot), the Raptor allows attacking the enemy before they can mount an offense OR defense, and in so doing, lines itself up for the close-range engagement, if needed. What MORE could a pilot ask for?
Posted by: Raptor1 | September 18, 2012, 1:21 am 1:21 am
Well, I suppose a pilot COULD ask for higher sustained speeds than the enemy he’ll face; and better acceleration, maneuverability, and operating altitude; and passive detection/geolocation of enemy forces; and an avionics package that fuses and shares all the sensor data with team mates… You know, all the capabilities the Raptor HAS.. :-)
Posted by: Raptor1 | September 18, 2012, 1:31 am 1:31 am
We won’t get into its stealth capability – As the Typhoon engagements clearly show, the F-22 is one stealthy SOB… enemy pilots’ only real hope is to SOMEHOW force it to fight a close-range game (which after all, is what the training in the article was designed to test), then fight it out to the end – i.e, get to WVR range and stay there (since disengaging will only get you chased by an AMRAAM or AIM-9), praying that you dogfight as well as you ever did in training. Sounds like the EFs did well… against handcuffed Raptors. :-)
Posted by: Raptor1 | September 18, 2012, 1:42 am 1:42 am
The Raptor has extreme capabilities in both the realm of BVR and WVR. IT IS THE BEST DOGFIGHTER IN THE WORLD!!! The Eurofighters were slicked off. In real life, there overall performance would be hampered.
Posted by: Horton | September 27, 2012, 12:06 am 12:06 am
The Eurofighter has Super Cruise ability too and it even is a bit stealthy, even though it doesn’t look like it. It was designed to have the smallest possible frontal silhouette and it uses a lot of composite materials instead of steel that just let radar pulses pass through them.
The only significant problem it has is that it doesn’t have a AESA radar yet, but apparently that will be fixed with the next batch/upgrade. It also will get better long range air to air missiles.
About it being “sliked down”, they just didn’t take external fuel tanks. Since external fuel tanks get dropped before a dogfight anyways, that doesn’t make a difference.
And the Raptors weren’t “handcuffed”. They just had to do real dogfights instead of shooting other jets “over the horizon”. Since both Russia and China have developed their own stealth fighters with AESA radar, it isn’t as sure anymore that a F-22 could always bank on its superiority in detecting and engaging enemy fighters before being detected and engaged itself.
The point is, that PAK-FA and the J-20 or J-31 or however the Chinese thing is called have the potential to sneak up on a Raptor and then it would come down to classical dog fighting.
Posted by: TrangleC | September 28, 2012, 9:38 am 9:38 am
Horton: Exactly how was the Raptor NOT handcuffed? No BVR shots… Altitude and engagement restrictions due to the well-known O2 issues… That’s the equivalent of having the EF go into an engagement with no HMDS or Pirate – Good luck!
The Raptor was meant to destroy from ranges that NO aircraft out there can compete with – Implying that the PAK FA and J-whatever are gunna force a dogfight against the Raptor only underscores the fact that no aircraft other than the Raptor is gunna stand too much of a chance when it comes down to stealth vs. stealth – Whe you have REAL stealth AND BVR, like the Raptor has, fighters like the EF have to wait for opportuinites like the EXERCISE demonstrated… IF you make to WVR, evn a handcuffed Raptor holds an advantage, one which even NOT having an HMDS or IRST allowed it to hang in there with the other best 4th++ gens. Pretty obvious, I think.
Posted by: Raptor1 | September 29, 2012, 12:47 pm 12:47 pm
Look, the EF is a great aircraft for what it is; and I think in a LOT of ways it’s a better aircraft than the -35 is gunna be for the next 10 years til it’s fielded. But realistically, if high-end threats like PAK FA or SU-35s with AESAs are present, the EF would NEVER be sent in to duke it out with them… Close-range, those fighters would be more than holding their own with the EF – That’s WHY the METEOR is so important to EF, and why it doesn’t matter for the F-22 – If you can’t see (let alone target) the Raptor until it’s 20 miles away and you’re locked up lng before then (that’s what the GERMANS themselves admitted), then a 60-mile AMRAMM shot is more than enough to keep any adversary honest, whether it’s an EF Pak Fa, or J-whatever. Pak Fa Stealth makes it more difficult for the Raptor to win BVR everytime; It makes it nearly impossible for an EF or F-15 or whatever. That’s the future of warfare – If you’re fighting stealth and you don’t have it, you HAVE to get through BVR freebie shots to have a chance. The Raptor takes the longest part of the game (the time you’re at BVR) and dominates it, hands down, end of story! People just have to realize what kind of monster the F-22 really is.
Posted by: Raptor1 | September 29, 2012, 12:58 pm 12:58 pm
My point was not that the Eurofighter is better than any other modern machine, my point was that it makes sense for F-22 pilots to train dogfights, because the fact that Russia and China have their own stealth fighters with AESA radar means that the F-22 might get into situations in which it isn’t able to kill an enemy at long ranges.
It is the kind of dismissive arrogance that gets people killed and loses you wars when you say: “My high tech super toy will never get into such a situation and thus training for it is unnecessary and when it doesn’t perform as well as expected in such a training, that doesn’t mean anything.”
Fact is, the Germans came to Red Flag intimidated by all the hyperbolic praise the F-22 has received and apparently they were surprised that the Raptor wasn’t as invincible and dominant as they had expected.
What that means is not that the Eurofighter is superior to the F-22, but it means that if something can get close enough to the F-22, which other stealth fighters could, then the outcome is open.
Recent developments in radar technology are leveling the playing field between Stealth and No Stealth anyways.
Have a look at that: EDIT: I had a link here but apparently I’m not allowed to post links.
Google search: “Cassidian Passive Radar”
That technology will not take long to end up in the hands of the Chinese, Russians and others.
Developments like that will render classical stealth characteristics less and less of an advantage and then it comes down to dog fighting abilities again.
Posted by: TrangleC | September 29, 2012, 2:28 pm 2:28 pm
So what was your point, that dogfighting is dangerous to ANY aircraft? OF course it is, that’s common sense. That’s WHY we invested in stealth, because you NEVER want to get into a dogfight if you don’t have to… So this WVR engagement with EF proves almost nothing, and whether anybody understands it or not,the F-22 kills you at long range, and those that survive will find themselves in a real dogfight – Because even with no HMDS, IRST, and boresight, the F-22 apparently was STILL not dominated by the best 4th gen that IS so equipped. most people don’t realize how incredible an aircraft the Raptor is, and will continue to be, until it finally IS forced into a dogfight, coming in from 55,000 feet at high supercruise – and in the future, with an upgraded MLDS (being looked at now) with HMDS/Aim-9X. A good deal, compared to anything else, at ANY price. The same radar systems you speak of… Tthey work even better on non-stealthy aircraft like the EF with no supercruise, no TVC, no fully integrated avionics, no 50,000+ ft ceilin…so the “anti-stealth” argument holds no water – it only obsoletes 4th gens faster! :-).
Posted by: Raptor1 | September 29, 2012, 11:01 pm 11:01 pm
You’re just as bad of an delusional fanboy as the name you chose suggests, aren’t you?
Why don’t you first explain how the fact that Stealth aircraft can be detected by passive radar just as easily as normal aircraft “obsoletes 4th generation faster”?
That’s quite a statement when coming without any explanation or arguments.
And the point was that “the F-22 kills you at long range” just isn’t true anymore now that the two most likely opponents and suppliers of other potential opponents have their own Stealth fighters.
The whole thing isn’t new anyways. Already the good old F-14 was designed to kill enemy fighters at distances beyond their ability to respond. Still F-14 pilots had to train dogfights because you can’t be sure that you’ll always face the enemy on ideal terms for yourself.
When there were reports of dogfight training between F-22 and F-16 and F-15 and the Raptor overwhelmingly dominated those, none of you Raptor fanboys came out to tell us that “this means nothing”. I heard nobody complaining about how unrealistic such an encounter supposedly was back then.
Why does it mean something when the F-22 owns its opponents in dogfight training but it suddenly means nothing when it doesn’t fare as well?
I’m repeating myself but that seems necessary, the fact that others have Stealth fighters too now means that the F-22 might not be able to engage every enemy on ideal terms and then it inevitably gets “oldfashioned”.
Those Eurofighters could have been Su-50 or J-31 in a real future confrontation, machines that didn’t get so close to the Raptors because “the game was rigged”, but because they genuinely have the ability to do that.
All I’m saying here is that it is stupid to say that training dogfights is useless because the F-22 won’t have to get that close to the enemy anyways.
And If you still misunderstand that as an attack on your holy cow, you’re too dumb to have a discussion with anyways.
Posted by: TrangleC | September 30, 2012, 12:25 am 12:25 am
Fanboy, no… Realist, yes.
You can continue to try to accuse me of saying training for dogfights is useless – It’s NOT… That’s WHY the exercise exists in the first place. What I AM saying is that ALL engagements begin at BVR these days, and when you own that, domain then IF you have to get in a dogfight, which I stated you NEVER want to have to do, then owning the BVR domain IS an advantage, as you dictate the terms of your BVR. What I AM saying is that thesePassive systems you speak of are great, IN THEORY. Integrating passive sensors together to form a picture of a the battlefield is EXACTLY what the Raptor and F-35 do, and that’s PART of their stealth – Name one other weapons system that’s fielded in any significant numbers, that can do that to track a effectively TARGET the Raptor… Now apply that reasoning to a 4th-gen… You really think an EF or F-18 is more difficult to target than an F-22? That’s a major KPP of the whole design, that’s why it took 20+ years to bring to IOC. And I AM saying that with its speed, stealth, maneuverability, and Int. avionics, the Raptor DOES reduce your engagenment envelope, no matter what you’re “listening for” The F-15 was designed a s BVR fighter, even though it IS vulnerable, just like ANY aircraft, when BVR becomes WVR – Difference is, no stealth, no supercruise, no int. avionics… you get the picture… But the WVR losses didn’t stop it from becoming the greatest air superiority platform of the last 30 years. If we’d listened to the naysayers back then, we’d have F-16s trying to take on SU-30s (good luck)
Posted by: Raptor1 | September 30, 2012, 6:58 pm 6:58 pm
tranglec: Do your OWN explaining… The EF is not a “bit” stealthy – it has fairly low RCS (about the same as a Hornet, and believe me, that ain’t stealth.) And if you want to use the J-20/PakFa arguement, tell us WHY they have stealth?… And exactly WHY is the METEOR such a LONG range weapon and considered critical to its mission of defending against SU-35s and beyond?… Because the Russians and the Chinese and the Europeans realize that if you can’t compete BVR, a 5th-gen is no joke… Pretty clear to see that even with Air Force decision to delay HMDS for Raptor, there’s GOOD proof here just how difficult a 5th gen is to take on close-range, even when modestly equipped… Your missiles/sensors are impaired and that’s your most vital means to victory. No worries here, I have no doubt our pilot/Raptor combo is more than up to the task of anything anyone wants to put up against it… You’re just not as informed, I guess.
Posted by: Raptor1 | September 30, 2012, 10:09 pm 10:09 pm
The F-22 only carried the 25+ year old AIM-9Ms in this exercise, which is very inferior to the IRST-T/HMCS combo of the typhoon.
The F-22 will soon be armed with the AIM-9X block 2, which has about twice the detection range of the 9M, 20+ miles range with lock after launch capability. In visual range, the F-22 will use a radar mode to engage target up to 70 deg off boresight.
Carrying an helmet cueing system on the F-22 would be almost useless, because the off boresight angle it could achieve would be roughly the same as with the radar. The AIM-9 is pointing down about 15-20 degrees on the F-22, and the 9X has 85 degrees off boresight angle, so that would give only 70 degrees of angle up( 85-15) which is the same as with the radar.
You will notice that the typhoon operators waited to be equipped with their HMCS to confront the raptor. Just a few years ago it would have been another story, and a few years from now the raptor may well have the edge.
Posted by: Velociraptor | October 14, 2012, 2:21 pm 2:21 pm
Well-put Velociraptor… While I’ll agree that the Raptor may not gain much angle with HMDS, there are OTHER things it could gain by having it – A passive high-offboresight capability comes to mind, if a threat ever emerges where the AESA is not a good option. But I think we both agree, when its ALR-56 system is upgraded, then its true capabilities will be UNDERSTOOD by all, especially when the AIM-9X comes into play – 4th gens will be outclassed BVR, and would not really WANT to get close, which they MUST do now just to survive. If only the F-35 fans out there could understand what the F-22 brings to the fight.
Posted by: Raptor1 | October 16, 2012, 5:48 pm 5:48 pm
Sorry, but “dog fighting” these two jets w/o fitting them with external/internal stores is not a good benchmark, period. Compare a combat loaded (aka fit with missiles) f-22 to a euro fighter typhoon. Comparing “Slicked up” versions of these jets is foolish at best… Once is designed around internal stores, ones is design around external. Anyone thinking that strapping 8 air to air missiles under your wings has a negligible impact on flight characteristics needs to re-evaluate their understanding of aircraft.
Posted by: ando | January 14, 2013, 4:06 pm 4:06 pm
187 F22s or any other fighter aircraft in the world, would not be able to shoot down 250,000 drones equips with one air to air missile each. It’s going to come down to numbers again. If you cranked out drones at the rate they crank out Ford Focuses, you could make 250,000 of them in 3 months. There could easily be a robot war of millions of planes. Drones are the future of air superiority.
Posted by: Joe Cushing | January 31, 2013, 11:17 pm 11:17 pm
The Raptor is the best looking plane in the world period but I worry about passive radar and infra red. The EF pilots claimed to have painted the Raptors from extremely long distances during RF. As good as stealth is, anti stealth technology is moving along quickly. A few years back the USAF asked the Royal air force in the UK to try and track a B2 flying accross the UK and although the signature was patchy they tracked it’s trajectory all of the way using a classified passive radar which I believe they now share with us. Technology on both planes is comparable as they both have supercruise and very advanced avionics. Thrust vectoring is great if only you didn’t bleed some much energy using it. The gap between 4th gen and 5th is slightly blurred IMO and all of the fanboys on here need to realise that whilst we have the best plane in the Raptor, never assume anything based upon clever marketing from the manufacturers. The real battle is between pilots and I for one am glad we will never have to face the Germans or the Brits for real cos they are crazy.
Posted by: Luke Shaw | February 4, 2013, 4:49 am 4:49 am
MAY I ASK PLEASE ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF A DOG FIGHT BEETWEEN AN F22 AND A EUROFIGHTER WITH GREEK PILOT OR A PILOT FROM ISREL?
Posted by: MINAS MALLIARAKIS | February 12, 2013, 1:26 pm 1:26 pm
420 million a plane?
Good God America, has anyone told you that you’re broke?
Posted by: Baz | February 23, 2013, 3:23 am 3:23 am
These exercises are not indicative of how the F-22 would actually engage a plane in an real engagement. Against many arguments that say “Even though the F-22 has BVR, planes are rarely allowed to engage at BVR” but even though this may be true in some respects, the F-22 would see the Eurofighter first, and then, if rules of engagement permitted the F-22 firing on the Eurofighter, the F-22 would win. But even if the rules of engagement did not let the F-22 engage the Eurofighter from BVR, the pilot would use his stealth to his advantage and essentially sneak up on the Eurofighter until he got to a point where he could engage. Even if the F-22 pilot had to wait to get to the merge, the pilot could still surprise the Eurofighters from angles that the Eurofighter would have no defense against, such as the Raptor sneaking up behind the Eurofighter or from above the Eurofighter. Raptor wins hands down.
Posted by: Jerry | March 11, 2013, 7:21 pm 7:21 pm