Comments on: F-22 Raptor Loses $79 Billion Advantage in Dogfights: Report http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/ The latest Headlines, news and blog posts from ABC News contributors and bloggers. Thu, 18 Dec 2014 20:31:08 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jerry http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/#comment-10606847 Jerry Mon, 11 Mar 2013 23:21:52 +0000 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/?p=446136#comment-10606847 These exercises are not indicative of how the F-22 would actually engage a plane in an real engagement. Against many arguments that say "Even though the F-22 has BVR, planes are rarely allowed to engage at BVR" but even though this may be true in some respects, the F-22 would see the Eurofighter first, and then, if rules of engagement permitted the F-22 firing on the Eurofighter, the F-22 would win. But even if the rules of engagement did not let the F-22 engage the Eurofighter from BVR, the pilot would use his stealth to his advantage and essentially sneak up on the Eurofighter until he got to a point where he could engage. Even if the F-22 pilot had to wait to get to the merge, the pilot could still surprise the Eurofighters from angles that the Eurofighter would have no defense against, such as the Raptor sneaking up behind the Eurofighter or from above the Eurofighter. Raptor wins hands down. These exercises are not indicative of how the F-22 would actually engage a plane in an real engagement. Against many arguments that say “Even though the F-22 has BVR, planes are rarely allowed to engage at BVR” but even though this may be true in some respects, the F-22 would see the Eurofighter first, and then, if rules of engagement permitted the F-22 firing on the Eurofighter, the F-22 would win. But even if the rules of engagement did not let the F-22 engage the Eurofighter from BVR, the pilot would use his stealth to his advantage and essentially sneak up on the Eurofighter until he got to a point where he could engage. Even if the F-22 pilot had to wait to get to the merge, the pilot could still surprise the Eurofighters from angles that the Eurofighter would have no defense against, such as the Raptor sneaking up behind the Eurofighter or from above the Eurofighter. Raptor wins hands down.

]]>
By: Baz http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/#comment-10459669 Baz Sat, 23 Feb 2013 08:23:54 +0000 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/?p=446136#comment-10459669 420 million a plane? Good God America, has anyone told you that you're broke? 420 million a plane?

Good God America, has anyone told you that you’re broke?

]]>
By: MINAS MALLIARAKIS http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/#comment-10360059 MINAS MALLIARAKIS Tue, 12 Feb 2013 18:26:18 +0000 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/?p=446136#comment-10360059 MAY I ASK PLEASE ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF A DOG FIGHT BEETWEEN AN F22 AND A EUROFIGHTER WITH GREEK PILOT OR A PILOT FROM ISREL? MAY I ASK PLEASE ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF A DOG FIGHT BEETWEEN AN F22 AND A EUROFIGHTER WITH GREEK PILOT OR A PILOT FROM ISREL?

]]>
By: Luke Shaw http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/#comment-10281095 Luke Shaw Mon, 04 Feb 2013 09:49:36 +0000 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/?p=446136#comment-10281095 The Raptor is the best looking plane in the world period but I worry about passive radar and infra red. The EF pilots claimed to have painted the Raptors from extremely long distances during RF. As good as stealth is, anti stealth technology is moving along quickly. A few years back the USAF asked the Royal air force in the UK to try and track a B2 flying accross the UK and although the signature was patchy they tracked it's trajectory all of the way using a classified passive radar which I believe they now share with us. Technology on both planes is comparable as they both have supercruise and very advanced avionics. Thrust vectoring is great if only you didn't bleed some much energy using it. The gap between 4th gen and 5th is slightly blurred IMO and all of the fanboys on here need to realise that whilst we have the best plane in the Raptor, never assume anything based upon clever marketing from the manufacturers. The real battle is between pilots and I for one am glad we will never have to face the Germans or the Brits for real cos they are crazy. The Raptor is the best looking plane in the world period but I worry about passive radar and infra red. The EF pilots claimed to have painted the Raptors from extremely long distances during RF. As good as stealth is, anti stealth technology is moving along quickly. A few years back the USAF asked the Royal air force in the UK to try and track a B2 flying accross the UK and although the signature was patchy they tracked it’s trajectory all of the way using a classified passive radar which I believe they now share with us. Technology on both planes is comparable as they both have supercruise and very advanced avionics. Thrust vectoring is great if only you didn’t bleed some much energy using it. The gap between 4th gen and 5th is slightly blurred IMO and all of the fanboys on here need to realise that whilst we have the best plane in the Raptor, never assume anything based upon clever marketing from the manufacturers. The real battle is between pilots and I for one am glad we will never have to face the Germans or the Brits for real cos they are crazy.

]]>
By: Joe Cushing http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/#comment-10261057 Joe Cushing Fri, 01 Feb 2013 04:17:09 +0000 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/?p=446136#comment-10261057 187 F22s or any other fighter aircraft in the world, would not be able to shoot down 250,000 drones equips with one air to air missile each. It's going to come down to numbers again. If you cranked out drones at the rate they crank out Ford Focuses, you could make 250,000 of them in 3 months. There could easily be a robot war of millions of planes. Drones are the future of air superiority. 187 F22s or any other fighter aircraft in the world, would not be able to shoot down 250,000 drones equips with one air to air missile each. It’s going to come down to numbers again. If you cranked out drones at the rate they crank out Ford Focuses, you could make 250,000 of them in 3 months. There could easily be a robot war of millions of planes. Drones are the future of air superiority.

]]>
By: ando http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/#comment-10083782 ando Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:06:24 +0000 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/?p=446136#comment-10083782 Sorry, but "dog fighting" these two jets w/o fitting them with external/internal stores is not a good benchmark, period. Compare a combat loaded (aka fit with missiles) f-22 to a euro fighter typhoon. Comparing "Slicked up" versions of these jets is foolish at best... Once is designed around internal stores, ones is design around external. Anyone thinking that strapping 8 air to air missiles under your wings has a negligible impact on flight characteristics needs to re-evaluate their understanding of aircraft. Sorry, but “dog fighting” these two jets w/o fitting them with external/internal stores is not a good benchmark, period. Compare a combat loaded (aka fit with missiles) f-22 to a euro fighter typhoon. Comparing “Slicked up” versions of these jets is foolish at best… Once is designed around internal stores, ones is design around external. Anyone thinking that strapping 8 air to air missiles under your wings has a negligible impact on flight characteristics needs to re-evaluate their understanding of aircraft.

]]>
By: Raptor1 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/#comment-9530076 Raptor1 Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:48:08 +0000 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/?p=446136#comment-9530076 Well-put Velociraptor... While I'll agree that the Raptor may not gain much angle with HMDS, there are OTHER things it could gain by having it - A passive high-offboresight capability comes to mind, if a threat ever emerges where the AESA is not a good option. But I think we both agree, when its ALR-56 system is upgraded, then its true capabilities will be UNDERSTOOD by all, especially when the AIM-9X comes into play - 4th gens will be outclassed BVR, and would not really WANT to get close, which they MUST do now just to survive. If only the F-35 fans out there could understand what the F-22 brings to the fight. Well-put Velociraptor… While I’ll agree that the Raptor may not gain much angle with HMDS, there are OTHER things it could gain by having it – A passive high-offboresight capability comes to mind, if a threat ever emerges where the AESA is not a good option. But I think we both agree, when its ALR-56 system is upgraded, then its true capabilities will be UNDERSTOOD by all, especially when the AIM-9X comes into play – 4th gens will be outclassed BVR, and would not really WANT to get close, which they MUST do now just to survive. If only the F-35 fans out there could understand what the F-22 brings to the fight.

]]>
By: Velociraptor http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/#comment-9520538 Velociraptor Sun, 14 Oct 2012 18:21:02 +0000 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/?p=446136#comment-9520538 The F-22 only carried the 25+ year old AIM-9Ms in this exercise, which is very inferior to the IRST-T/HMCS combo of the typhoon. The F-22 will soon be armed with the AIM-9X block 2, which has about twice the detection range of the 9M, 20+ miles range with lock after launch capability. In visual range, the F-22 will use a radar mode to engage target up to 70 deg off boresight. Carrying an helmet cueing system on the F-22 would be almost useless, because the off boresight angle it could achieve would be roughly the same as with the radar. The AIM-9 is pointing down about 15-20 degrees on the F-22, and the 9X has 85 degrees off boresight angle, so that would give only 70 degrees of angle up( 85-15) which is the same as with the radar. You will notice that the typhoon operators waited to be equipped with their HMCS to confront the raptor. Just a few years ago it would have been another story, and a few years from now the raptor may well have the edge. The F-22 only carried the 25+ year old AIM-9Ms in this exercise, which is very inferior to the IRST-T/HMCS combo of the typhoon.

The F-22 will soon be armed with the AIM-9X block 2, which has about twice the detection range of the 9M, 20+ miles range with lock after launch capability. In visual range, the F-22 will use a radar mode to engage target up to 70 deg off boresight.

Carrying an helmet cueing system on the F-22 would be almost useless, because the off boresight angle it could achieve would be roughly the same as with the radar. The AIM-9 is pointing down about 15-20 degrees on the F-22, and the 9X has 85 degrees off boresight angle, so that would give only 70 degrees of angle up( 85-15) which is the same as with the radar.

You will notice that the typhoon operators waited to be equipped with their HMCS to confront the raptor. Just a few years ago it would have been another story, and a few years from now the raptor may well have the edge.

]]>
By: Raptor1 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/#comment-9459168 Raptor1 Mon, 01 Oct 2012 02:09:21 +0000 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/?p=446136#comment-9459168 tranglec: Do your OWN explaining... The EF is not a "bit" stealthy - it has fairly low RCS (about the same as a Hornet, and believe me, that ain't stealth.) And if you want to use the J-20/PakFa arguement, tell us WHY they have stealth?... And exactly WHY is the METEOR such a LONG range weapon and considered critical to its mission of defending against SU-35s and beyond?... Because the Russians and the Chinese and the Europeans realize that if you can't compete BVR, a 5th-gen is no joke... Pretty clear to see that even with Air Force decision to delay HMDS for Raptor, there's GOOD proof here just how difficult a 5th gen is to take on close-range, even when modestly equipped... Your missiles/sensors are impaired and that's your most vital means to victory. No worries here, I have no doubt our pilot/Raptor combo is more than up to the task of anything anyone wants to put up against it... You're just not as informed, I guess. tranglec: Do your OWN explaining… The EF is not a “bit” stealthy – it has fairly low RCS (about the same as a Hornet, and believe me, that ain’t stealth.) And if you want to use the J-20/PakFa arguement, tell us WHY they have stealth?… And exactly WHY is the METEOR such a LONG range weapon and considered critical to its mission of defending against SU-35s and beyond?… Because the Russians and the Chinese and the Europeans realize that if you can’t compete BVR, a 5th-gen is no joke… Pretty clear to see that even with Air Force decision to delay HMDS for Raptor, there’s GOOD proof here just how difficult a 5th gen is to take on close-range, even when modestly equipped… Your missiles/sensors are impaired and that’s your most vital means to victory. No worries here, I have no doubt our pilot/Raptor combo is more than up to the task of anything anyone wants to put up against it… You’re just not as informed, I guess.

]]>
By: Raptor1 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/07/f-22-fighter-loses-79-billion-advantage-in-dogfights-report/#comment-9458592 Raptor1 Sun, 30 Sep 2012 22:58:02 +0000 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/?p=446136#comment-9458592 Fanboy, no... Realist, yes. You can continue to try to accuse me of saying training for dogfights is useless - It's NOT... That's WHY the exercise exists in the first place. What I AM saying is that ALL engagements begin at BVR these days, and when you own that, domain then IF you have to get in a dogfight, which I stated you NEVER want to have to do, then owning the BVR domain IS an advantage, as you dictate the terms of your BVR. What I AM saying is that thesePassive systems you speak of are great, IN THEORY. Integrating passive sensors together to form a picture of a the battlefield is EXACTLY what the Raptor and F-35 do, and that's PART of their stealth - Name one other weapons system that's fielded in any significant numbers, that can do that to track a effectively TARGET the Raptor... Now apply that reasoning to a 4th-gen... You really think an EF or F-18 is more difficult to target than an F-22? That's a major KPP of the whole design, that's why it took 20+ years to bring to IOC. And I AM saying that with its speed, stealth, maneuverability, and Int. avionics, the Raptor DOES reduce your engagenment envelope, no matter what you're "listening for" The F-15 was designed a s BVR fighter, even though it IS vulnerable, just like ANY aircraft, when BVR becomes WVR - Difference is, no stealth, no supercruise, no int. avionics... you get the picture... But the WVR losses didn't stop it from becoming the greatest air superiority platform of the last 30 years. If we'd listened to the naysayers back then, we'd have F-16s trying to take on SU-30s (good luck) Fanboy, no… Realist, yes.
You can continue to try to accuse me of saying training for dogfights is useless – It’s NOT… That’s WHY the exercise exists in the first place. What I AM saying is that ALL engagements begin at BVR these days, and when you own that, domain then IF you have to get in a dogfight, which I stated you NEVER want to have to do, then owning the BVR domain IS an advantage, as you dictate the terms of your BVR. What I AM saying is that thesePassive systems you speak of are great, IN THEORY. Integrating passive sensors together to form a picture of a the battlefield is EXACTLY what the Raptor and F-35 do, and that’s PART of their stealth – Name one other weapons system that’s fielded in any significant numbers, that can do that to track a effectively TARGET the Raptor… Now apply that reasoning to a 4th-gen… You really think an EF or F-18 is more difficult to target than an F-22? That’s a major KPP of the whole design, that’s why it took 20+ years to bring to IOC. And I AM saying that with its speed, stealth, maneuverability, and Int. avionics, the Raptor DOES reduce your engagenment envelope, no matter what you’re “listening for” The F-15 was designed a s BVR fighter, even though it IS vulnerable, just like ANY aircraft, when BVR becomes WVR – Difference is, no stealth, no supercruise, no int. avionics… you get the picture… But the WVR losses didn’t stop it from becoming the greatest air superiority platform of the last 30 years. If we’d listened to the naysayers back then, we’d have F-16s trying to take on SU-30s (good luck)

]]>