Obama Expresses Support for Superdelegate Primary
ABC News’ Sunlen Miller Reports: Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., expressed support of a proposal floated by Tennessee Gov. Phil Bredesen to hold a superdelegate primary in an interview with CNN’s Anderson Cooper.
The idea calls for a two-day superdelegate primary in June to reach a fast decision towards a party nominee, in anticipation of the race still being deadlocked between Clinton and Obama after the last contests wrap up.
Obama said, "I thought that actually Gov. Bredesen of Tennessee had an interesting proposal…That would probably be the best way to insure that at lest there’s a couple of months before the convention."
DNC Chairman Howard Dean has not endorsed Bredesen’s superdelegate plan, proposed in Wednesday’s New York Times, and so far it has not gained much traction. But clearly, Obama is trying to breathe a little life into it.
On Sen. Hillary Clinton’s team, senior adviser Harold Ickes was asked about the Bredesen proposal in a Wednesday traveling press call. Ickes called it a "nice thought" but added that it will "never happen."
On the possibility of a re-vote in Michigan, on the day that his opponent, Obama returned to his classic response, reiterating that his campaign will abide by what DNC determines, avoiding discussion of the specific plan on the table for Michigan that the Obama campaign has expressed concerns over.
He added instead a criticism for Clinton in her handling of the matter, calling her "completely disingenuous" for what he chalked up to political maneuvering, "She said when she was still trying to compete for votes in Iowa and New Hampshire that Michigan and Florida wouldn’t count. Then as soon as she got into trouble politically and it looked like she would have no prospect of winning the nomination without having them count, suddenly she’s extraordinarily concerned with the voters there. I understand the politics of it, but let’s be clear that it’s politics."
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I have a suggestion regarding Florida and Michigan: give Senator Obama half of the delgates and Senator Clinton half of the delegates. This makes sense to me and would not cost anyone any money. Seems simple enough to me.
Posted by: mhe | March 20, 2008, 9:14 am 9:14 am
You gotta wonder what Hillary and her team is afraid of?
I thought wooing the fat cats, the party insiders and the party bosses was now her strategy to win the nomination. Because we all know she can’t do it at the ballot box.
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 9:20 am 9:20 am
That would negate the vote that was taken in both states. It would also negate what would occur today if there was a revote. This is disenfranchisement at its worst. The DNC screwed up and Obama does not want to agree to a revote in Michigan because he knows he will lose again.
Posted by: FL Resident | March 20, 2008, 9:22 am 9:22 am
Wow what a mess… seems like maybe the DNC could have had some sort of foresight into what would happen if FL and MI’s votes were actually needed when they made this decision. Isn’t that kind of why they were elected? To make decisions that encompassed the best interests of the constituents? Well both candidates here have an agenda and I think they need to sit down and be adults and come to a compromise which will hopefully iron this out… one of the Florida representatives mentioned it last night, but I can’t remember which one- I turned the TV off because this whole thing disgusts me. Best of luck to you Fl and MI … I guess you just need to keep an eye on who you are electing to make decisions about your voting rights.
Posted by: Sara | March 20, 2008, 9:35 am 9:35 am
This is the outcome when rules are broken. Always we end up in problems and uncertainity. We all learn through mistakes we make!
Posted by: Peace | March 20, 2008, 9:41 am 9:41 am
One would thing B.O. would prefer a SuperCaucus instead of a SuperPrimary.
Posted by: Deep Release | March 20, 2008, 9:42 am 9:42 am
You cant have a decision until the convention because Michigan and Florida will now have to petition to be seated at convention.
If Obama doesn’t give the go ahead to Michigan tocay, this goes to convention.
Posted by: s.b. | March 20, 2008, 9:48 am 9:48 am
As far as the 50/50 suggestion. Lets see that would take votes away from Clinton in Michigan and since Obama only got 25% of the vote in the exit polls give him 25%. In Florida it would give Obama 17% and Clinton nothing.
This proposal is insulting, cheating, completely disregards democracy and should be completely disallowed, even as a suggestion by the DNC.
It is absurd!
If this goes to convention these states should and WILL demand that all their delegates be seated as is, without rewriting history, cheating or stealing delegates.
It will go to a vote on the convention floor.
Will Democratic super delegates be dumb enough to deny these two swing states, 8% of the electorate their delegates???
If they do they deserve to lose the white house and they will!
Posted by: s.b. | March 20, 2008, 9:52 am 9:52 am
How about support for primaries where 2.3 million democrats voted or redo’s for 8% of the electorate and electoral college, i maight add?
No that would be democracy. obama isnt interested in that.
I’m sure he does want a superdelegate caucus not a primary.
By the way, there is a superdelegate primary, its called The Democratic National Convention.
Posted by: s.b. | March 20, 2008, 10:07 am 10:07 am
Primaries are DELEGATE SLECTION VOTES.
You can’t have a superdelegate primary because they are already delegates to convention.
If this allowed, then there should be delegate primaries in FL and MI where the delegates get to vote for themselves to go to convention which would then be recognized by the DNC as being valid. It would be exactly the same thing.
Posted by: s.b. | March 20, 2008, 10:11 am 10:11 am
Yeah that’s a great idea. On the same day that superdelegates get to vote to send themselves to convention, MI and FL delegates get to vote to send themselves to convention.
Great idea Barack, you may have solved this whole mess.
Posted by: s.b. | March 20, 2008, 10:13 am 10:13 am
Seriously any person trying to blame this mess on either of the candidates or say it is their responsibility to fix it needs a reality check- the blame lies solely at the feet of the DNC .. Of course neither candidate is going to give their approval to something that may hurt them politically. Just as Barack remains silent about the revote Hillary remains solid on only having a revote… If the two cannot compromise then the leaders of the DNC need to make a decision and everyone will just have to live with it..it’s called leadership.
Posted by: Sara | March 20, 2008, 10:26 am 10:26 am
By the way, undeclared or undecided would have to be one of the coices as it always is in primaries. So it would be straw poll, not a primary because these delegates are already selected where the neutral super delegates could still vote undeclared.
This man’s attempts to subvert the process are amazing. He doesn’t want prmaries, because he doesnt win them, doesn’t want votes to count, and now doesn’t want a convention.
Posted by: s.b. | March 20, 2008, 10:26 am 10:26 am
Obama is done, the Wright controversy is not going to go away and there is more to come. More radical connections, more racism. All the pretty speeches in the world will not erase seeing those clips of Wright and his hate speech. Hillary has a chance against McCain. For all of the charges leveled against the Clintons there has never been anything proven. Bill for all his faults was a great president and presided over a prosperous time in America for everyone. He truly was a president of all people. The cross over republicans and independents have been turned off as indicated in the lastest polls. The Hillary women will never vote for Obama. If Obama gets the nomination it will be a landslide for McCain.
Posted by: Firefighter | March 20, 2008, 10:33 am 10:33 am
Based on the results from WA and TX, we need to ban all results from caucus states, or transfer them to popular vote based on the data from WA and TX.
Posted by: NoMoreCaucus | March 20, 2008, 10:37 am 10:37 am
You know I can’t help but wonder NoMoreCaucus of you would feel that way had Hillary won the caucus states? You suggestion reeks of the same silliness as the Obama supporters saying we should ban primaries and all go caucus because generally the people who do caucus? Are the people who care and have educated theirselves on the issues. That’s a fact. Soooo if a large part of Hillary’s votes are coming from people who recognize the name or those who aren’t willing to stand in line to caucus….then the caucus votes shows the will of the people who truly do care what happens.
Posted by: Brian | March 20, 2008, 10:42 am 10:42 am
The DNC truly is to blame for this fiasco and they are showing no leadership at this very critical point in time. I think the DNC is pro OBama and are buying time, hoping this will go away. However, Obama is damaged goods and we need MI and FL in the GE. Disenfranchising voters in those 2 states will hurt the Democrats in NOV. The DNC should have vetted Obama before supporting him. If you take note of the latest polls, he is dropping like a brick and it saddens me to say this, but the Dems will lose bigtime in NOV.
Posted by: tiffany | March 20, 2008, 10:46 am 10:46 am
Firefighter and s.b. is that another fear tacticks another 3:00 am annoucement? Hillary is done. Obama is on his way to win the nomination and Hillary and her supporters have no other choice but to join the crowd behind Obama. That is the only one way to win back the White House. McCain is not a solid candidate, you may remember that Hillary said that McCain has a lifetime experience in national security and foreign affairs. But the last show in Jordan was very much troubling because McCain could not make a difference between Sunni and Shites, Iran and AlQaeda. His good friend Joe libberman has to correct him publicly.
Posted by: BKMC | March 20, 2008, 10:47 am 10:47 am
In TX, Obama won caucus by 10%, but was defeated in popular vote by 4%.
In WA, Obama won caucus by a stunning 37%, but only won the popular vote by 5%.
Should we let him steal the nominee?
Posted by: NoMoreCaucus | March 20, 2008, 10:49 am 10:49 am
Senator Obama visited FL last fall, and promised to voters that he would do everything he can to have their votes counted, now he just does not want their votes counted anymore.
I guess words are just words for him?
What a joke!
Posted by: NoMoreCaucus | March 20, 2008, 10:50 am 10:50 am
Based on his record of saying one thing and doing another, I don’t trust Obama about a Super delegate primary. He is also on the record as saying he would support a Michigan re-vote. He is on the record saying he would over turn NAFTA, he is on the record saying he never heard Rev. Wright’s inflammatory speeches, he is on the record saying he doesn’t take corporate money. All of these “on the record” statements have been unveiled as the political spin and outright deceptions that they are – so why should we trust Obama. His words don’t match his actions.
Posted by: mhhunt | March 20, 2008, 10:51 am 10:51 am
Tiffany- you contradict yourself in your first two sentences.. How can you spin this to be one candidates fault..look at the facts..the DNC is the root cause of the mess. No bias towards either candidate affects this at all- this is just the DNC showing they are cowards and don’t want the fallout to hit them when the inevitable unhappy voters speak up during their campaign- they would rather people place false blame on the candidates.
Posted by: Sara | March 20, 2008, 10:52 am 10:52 am
The superdelegate system encourages insider wheeling and dealing with higher priority than the Voters have.
They need to get with the times and toss out the Superdelegate system “.”
Posted by: Annie | March 20, 2008, 10:53 am 10:53 am
Superdelegate primary does not make sense until all the fifty states votes are counted. Super delegate primary is waste of time and money. Also, with recent news, I may see more “Undecided” superdelegates than the ones favouring the either candidates. If Obama going to waste money like this on New stupid ideas then economy will tank further.
Posted by: Humm | March 20, 2008, 10:58 am 10:58 am
Not only should the results from the Texas and Washington primaries trump the caucuses at least in the minds of superdelegates, Fl and MI should count.
They exist as states and there are no caucuses or the general election, just winner take all states.
Super delegates need to do the winner take all real vote math and choose accordingly.
Posted by: s.b. | March 20, 2008, 11:01 am 11:01 am
BKMC
No fear, just fact…….look at the latest polls, they tell the story.
Posted by: Firefighter | March 20, 2008, 11:01 am 11:01 am
Deep Release, clearly you don’t understand the difference between a caucus and a primary. With a *finite* pool of voters (in the case of the superdelegates, about 800) GOTV and turnout is a non-issue. So call it a primary or call it a caucus, but in fact it would be neither. It would technically be a delegate convention.
Posted by: emily | March 20, 2008, 11:01 am 11:01 am
Super delegates are there sothat Republicans cant swing caucuses to the weaker candidate, which is exactly what has happened.
Democrats need to choose the strongest candidate for NOV, where yes Virginia MI and FL will be voting and sending electoral college delegates to Washington.
Super delegates need to ensure that happens.
Posted by: s.b. | March 20, 2008, 11:03 am 11:03 am
Humm: Gov. Bredesen’s proposal specifically calls for the superdelegate vote to take place in “early June, *after* the final primaries.” Did you even read it? The link is in the article, for crying out loud.
Posted by: emily | March 20, 2008, 11:07 am 11:07 am
I like the superdelegate primary idea in June, because it gives whoever the nominee is time to unify the party. Both candidates have liabilities, and the truth is, that Wright was out last year on Fox, it just turns out that timing is everything and this time it got more playing time. Probably fueled by the Ferraro comments. For Clinton, we still have the Paul situation, and a rehash of travelgate, filegate, and Whitewater (and the mysterious suicide?). My point is that both candidates will be worked over by the Republicans, but the positive is that the Democratic party has them on the issues, and that will win out, no matter who the candidate is.
Posted by: Bill | March 20, 2008, 11:08 am 11:08 am
Why not a two-day superdelegate primary in June to decide whether Florida and Michigan delegates should be seated before the Convention.
Superdelegates primary in June to select the candidate: Any reason to have a Convention?
Posted by: Angel | March 20, 2008, 11:14 am 11:14 am
To emily, I said 50 states. Will MI and FL get counted before June?
Posted by: Humm | March 20, 2008, 11:15 am 11:15 am
we should be just as clear that Obama opposing a revote is just politics too because he knows he would lose. he’s perfectly willing to change the rules when it comes to superdelegats. removing his name from the michigan ballot originally was also just politics and done to ingratiate himself to the voters in iowa and new hampshire
Posted by: max | March 20, 2008, 11:29 am 11:29 am
mhe you must be an Obama supporter. Hillary won both primaries. If the delegates would have been awarded accordingly, Senator Hillary Clinton WOULD be the front runner with the popular vote, delegate lead, and the superdelegate lead. Senator Obama MUST let the voices in Michigan and Florida be heard!!!
Posted by: Keith | March 20, 2008, 11:30 am 11:30 am
HIllary is not done, a new Rassmussen poll shows her ahead by 28% in west Virginia. POTUS matchups show her leading Obama in Kentucky by about 30%, She’s ahead in Penn by 26% and she’s drwn even in North CArolina.
Obama is trying to say this is over again because he knows he is going to lose big time come April and May.
You know what happens when Obam tries to say its over and she can’t win?? People come out en masse and vote for Hillary.
She is going to win Penn, Kentucky and West Viriginia by 30% margins, Indiana by 20%, Puerto Rico by at least 30%.
Add to that MI and Fl, states that will be seated at convention 100% guarenteed, and Hillary wins.
The DNC is not dumb enough to not seat 8% of the American voting public.
The super delegates will have to consider FL and MI in their votes.
The numbers for Obama are looking bad. Will supers vote for someone who is losing contests by 30% at the end of the cycle??? Probably not, nor should they.
Posted by: s.b. | March 20, 2008, 11:33 am 11:33 am
I think that they should have had Obama leading the DNC.
Posted by: RuthieM | March 20, 2008, 11:34 am 11:34 am
Here is my analogy to the controversy regarding the FL and MI primaries.
Supppose the Pittsburgh Steelers were scheduled to play 2 football games in August against the Bengals. The league tells them the games don’t count (ie purely exhibition games) and won’t affect the regular season standings. The Steelers don’t even field a team to one game and in the other game they sit Big Ben and the rest of their starters. They lose both games. The regular season ends and they have a record of 11-5. The 2nd place Bengals are 10-6. All of a sudden, the Bengals claim they should go to the playoffs because they won the 2 games in August.
Any 5 year old would know the Bengals argument is ridiculous.
This is exactly what the Clinton camp is doing.
Posted by: Jason | March 20, 2008, 11:36 am 11:36 am
Splitting the delegates in half is exactly the same as not counting the votes. Do they think the voters are stupid?! Let Florida stand the way it is. They were both on the ballot and it certainly more fair than those caucases. Those caucases are a joke and a lot of senior citizens do not even want to attend them. Michigan should be re-done. Democratic officials should NEVER punish the voters for what they had no control over. I don’t care if Clinton and Obama agreed to this, the voters NEVER agreed to it!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: lisa | March 20, 2008, 11:38 am 11:38 am
Clintons are asking for playing again the game using the same rules. Doing Caucus or Mail in vote is changing the rule.
So, I think even 5 year old will understand that
Posted by: Humm | March 20, 2008, 12:04 pm 12:04 pm
One thing I forgot to mention, when there is a tie, we give each team an extra time to play. So, whatever Clinton is asking is fair.
Posted by: Humm | March 20, 2008, 12:09 pm 12:09 pm
S.b. is living in a fantasy land…..and Obama fans are supposed to be the ones with our head in the clouds. Desperate attempts by a desperate woman.
Posted by: BJazz | March 20, 2008, 12:10 pm 12:10 pm
To: nomorecaucus You’re argument that Obama won by 37% in the Washington state caucuses but only by 7% in the primary is ridiculous. You obviously know nothing about Washington state Dem Party rules. The Dem Party in Washington state told us months ahead of time that they were NOT going to count the primary vote. It would do nothing to count towards the delegate allocation so most people did not vote in the primary (sound familiar FL/MI…a lot of people stayed home because it wasn’t supposed to count?). Anyway, Obama is not stealing this nomination. Think about it…if caucuses allow for fewer votes for Obama and he has won a lot of caucuses, what explanation do you give that he is ahead in the POPULAR vote as well, even with winning a lot of caucus states? The explanation is that he is well ahead in POPULAR vote, ELECTED DELEGATES and STATES won. So how does that equate to stealing this thing. I am soooooo sick of Clinton and her supporters telling me (a caucus goer) that I don’t matter. Yet, she stands up in Michigan and says “every vote should count”. Oh, really, Hillary??? You mean every vote that is for you. Obama 2008!
Posted by: Donn | March 20, 2008, 12:14 pm 12:14 pm
To: Humm “a tie”???? How do you figure there is a tie. Obama is leading her in the popular vote, elected delegates by an insurmountable margin, and states won. How does that figure to a tie? If Hillary was ahead by one delegate, one popular vote or one state won she would be screaming for Obama to get out of this race. And, I guarantee, that if Obama had lost 12 contests in a row he would have been drummed out of this thing by the media. In fact, it wouldn’t have taken 12 contests. If he had lost 3 in a row they would be calling for him to quit…the media and Clinton included. Give me a break! We need the leadership the Obama exhibits. We do NOT need the status quo!
Posted by: Donn | March 20, 2008, 12:19 pm 12:19 pm
To: s.b. You are just like nomorecaucus! You talk about the Washington state caucus and primary as if you know what you are talking about, but YOU DON’T! AGAIN…the WA state Dem party told us months before our caucus and primary that the primary would NOT count for the allocation of delegates so many, many, many people said why waste the effort voting in the primary and just caucused. Stop putting down the millions of people in this country who have caucused for BOTH candidates. You are not only deriding me, an Obama supporter, you are deriding all of those people who got off their lazy butts and went to the caucus for Hillary. It’s amazing that you can’t see that. And, what is truly pathetic is that Hillary does the same thing and those people still support her. Just like when she lost in Wisconsin and gave a speech in Ohio that evening. She was “moving on” and didn’t say one word about Obama’s win in Wisconsin (how ungracious) but even worse she didn’t even thank all of those thousands of people who voted for her and worked hard for her in Wisconsin. What does that say about her? Doesn’t that bother you? If Obama did that to me I think I would definitely be rethinking my support.
Posted by: Donn | March 20, 2008, 12:28 pm 12:28 pm
Look, everyone saying that Obama won’t support a revote needs a reality check. Obama WOULD support a caucus do-over, and this would actually be easier and less expensive than a primary. But Clinton won’t agree to that, for obvious reasons. She has not done as well as Obama in caucuses. So it’s OK for Clinton to turn down a caucus revote, but if Obama won’t agree to a primary where Republicans and independents can’t participate, and it’s financed by Hillary Clinton supporters, some how HE’S standing in the way of a revote????? This is spin at it’s absolute worst. Both candidates WILL, and HAVE A RIGHT TO, look out for their own political interests. The real culprits here are the state parties that voted to move the primaries up in violation of DNC rules. I support the DNC holding firm to their decision because it would not be FAIR to ignore a pre-existing and pre-agreed to decision just because Senator Clinton is no longer “inevitable” and needs the votes to count in states that she previously stated “don’t count.”
Posted by: gregory Brian | March 20, 2008, 12:38 pm 12:38 pm
Google “Michigan and Florida wouldn’t count” -
And you’ll find 50 times Sen. Obama claims she said it, 100 times some blogger claims she said it.
And not one single example of Sen. Clinton ever saying it.
Posted by: Ken | March 20, 2008, 12:44 pm 12:44 pm
Surely the blame for this lies with the state leaders who decided to flout the rules?
No one including these state leaders expected the primary race to be this close at this stage. So when they decided to move up their dates it was to position themselves in a more important part of the race.
So its pushing in line – for understandable reasons – that has caused this mess… no?
Posted by: Maxx | March 20, 2008, 1:00 pm 1:00 pm
A caucus is not Democratic, it favors people who don’t have a life and important things to do such as work and feed their families. Obama’s supporters tend to fall into this camp, ether college students, or fairly well off people who can afford to take several hours off to participate in a caucus.
Obama is playing the typical politician on this and other issues. He is no different than George Bush and others when it comes to playing political games. If Obama wants to win, he should try to win the right way, by actually winning in states that the Democrats have to win to take back the White House. Without Michigan and Florida it will be 4 more years of Republicans in the White House. Exclude Florida and Michigan now and Obama will lose them in the general election.
Posted by: Jim | March 20, 2008, 1:04 pm 1:04 pm
Ken: She signed a pledge agreeing with the DNC ruling that Michigan and Florida won’t count and promised not to participate in the two primaries. Quit being so pedestrian. Hillary is breaking a signed pledge. Simple as that.
Posted by: S.E. Croft | March 20, 2008, 1:05 pm 1:05 pm
Voting in the Democratic party primaries is NOT a constitutional right. Therefore, the democrats in FL and Michigan can NOT be disenfranchised! It is a privilege to vote in a party primary. The party is free to set its rules and punish those that flout them.
Posted by: Daniela, Fremont CA | March 20, 2008, 1:07 pm 1:07 pm
I keep hearing people talk about a record turn-out in Florida and that oh a lot of people went to the polls because of the property tax amendment was on the ballot. And I just ask myself, how about the folks who DON’T OWN PROPERTIES and who decided not to waste time because EVERYBODY INCLUDING HILLARY, knew that the results wouldn’t count because of the BREACHING OF THE RULES. Come on people, grow up
Posted by: Mimi | March 20, 2008, 1:15 pm 1:15 pm
To:Gregory Brian
Your search for Would FL and MI was incomplete. If you listened to Dan Abrams spot on MSNBC, you will not only learn that Hillary said that MI and FL primary will not count but that statement is on tape- period!
Posted by: Kyle | March 20, 2008, 1:22 pm 1:22 pm
On the streets of the South Side, where the Black Panther movement, Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, and the Rev. Jesse Jackson flowered, Obama was mocked as a dispossessed newcomer who failed to grasp the historical urgency of the black struggle. “The white man in blackface,” a political rival once called him.
Though Obama would later convince many black skeptics of his commitment to justice and equality, he made clear he would not be bound by their antagonism toward the white power structure.
“Historically, African-Americans have turned inward and toward black nationalism whenever they have a sense, as we do now, that the mainstream has rebuffed us and that white Americans couldn’t care less about the profound problems African-Americans are facing,” he told an interviewer in 1995, before his political career had begun. “But cursing out white folks is not going to get the job done. Anti-Semitic and anti-Asian statements are not going to lift us up. . . . We’ve got communities to build.”
Posted by: IOWA DEMOCRAT | March 20, 2008, 1:23 pm 1:23 pm
Ken, you are wrong? Hillary did say that Florida and Michigan wouldn’t count and signed a statement for the DNC accordingly. She also reiterated that fact while campaigning in New Hampshire on the radio there. It has been widely reported. The problem is that once she saw that she needed those votes and delegates to get “closer” to Obama’s lead she decided that “every vote should count”…at least the ones that voted for her.
Posted by: Donn | March 20, 2008, 1:29 pm 1:29 pm
Jim –
A caucus isn’t democratic? Ok. Was a caucus undemocratic when she was ahead? Was a caucus undemocratic when Bill won? Was the caucus undemocratic when any other the other nominees ran for office? For Hillary, the process didn’t become undemocratic until she was losing. That speaks volumes about who is playing politics here, as if this needs some sort of sophisticated analysis.
She knew what the road to the nomination included, both primaries and caucuses. Unfortunately for her, she couldn’t out-organize, out-think, or out-strategize the Obama camp. Now she wants to change the rules when she and everyone else knew rules. Pathetic. She couldn’t command her campaign, why should we believe she’s the most qualified to command the country?
Posted by: Rstar | March 20, 2008, 1:29 pm 1:29 pm
Thanks, Iowa Democrat! Great post!
Posted by: Donn | March 20, 2008, 1:31 pm 1:31 pm
Donn – your argument is not backed up by data. While it is true WA changed their rules to award delegates based on a caucus, they also agreed to keep the primary so that all voters can participate. I spoke to one of the WA committee folks who told me the reason that was done was because they did not have a solid majority agreeing to use the caucus for delegate apportioning. The opponents felt all the voters would not be able to participate and a primary provides data to either support or negate their argument. In this case, it supports the argument that a select few voters in a caucus can skew the numbers so that they do not represent the will of the voters. If it were an all or nothing apportioning it would not matter. Since it is proportional, it does matter. I suspect WA will be arguing in the future about changing their rules.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 1:45 pm 1:45 pm
More Caucus says:
“In WA, Obama won caucus by a stunning 37%, but only won the popular vote by 5%.”
This is true. But of course many of O’s supporters didn’t feel the need to turn up to the polls a week later on primary day. You see they already cast their vote and knew that the primary did not count.
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 1:46 pm 1:46 pm
Hey Jim- you need to get over the exit poll categories and realize that not all Obama supporters are young or rich News Flash! We Aren’t! lol but I’ll tell you what if this election was important enough to ME I would be taking a couple hours off of this “dream job” that I have to attend a caucus. It’s all about priorities… Home in time for the game? …President of the United States..hmmmm you decide!But I suppose my opinion doesn’t matter because WI had their act together and voted within the rules..so mine did count ( not to Hillary because I know I know Wisconsin didn’t matter)…
Posted by: Sara | March 20, 2008, 1:52 pm 1:52 pm
In TX, the matter is even worse. Evidence of cheating and the results being opposite of the primary is a problem. Both candidates were told prior to the voting that TX guaranteed they could handle the large turnout and if there were any problems, either candidate could audit the results. Clinton officially requested permission to audit the caucus results and TX is refusing. One poster claims that disenfranchises the caucus voters… umm excuse me, the caucus voters already voted in the primaries so no one is disenfranchised.
I am not surprised TX is blocking an audit. Republicans always try to fix Dem elections in TX. They redistricted to try to negate the Hispanic voting bloc impact. There were more delegates given to black areas than hispanic areas in the primary. Republicans voted in the open primary and caucus with the intent of fixing the election as always. The funny part is that Rush fans are claim they gave it to Clinton. However, the facts dont support that. According to the analysts, the crossover Republicans accounted for 9% of the vote and the majority of that 9% voted for Obama not Clinton. What tipped the primaries in Clinton’s favor was the non-black female vote, the leaning of white males back to Clinton (happened elsewhere also), and the huge turnout of Hispanic voters supporting Clinton by 77%. Their turnout was so large in number that the black voting block (traditionally 34% of the dem voters in TX) was reduced in impact to 19%. With their extra delegates they unfairly get, the hispanic bloc cancelled the black bloc. Men were split between the candidates mostly so the end result was that the female vote is what gave TX to Clinton. Exit polls show voters making up their mind in the last 48 hours overwhelmingly voted for Clinton. This is happening in other states also. TX is a Red state. They have not voted for a democratic president since LBJ (who was Texan). The goal of republicans in TX are to divide and conquer democrats and prop up the weaker candidate so that the republican nominee has less of a fight. I am from TX and lived in the heavily republican areas for 37 years. If you think they do not use the dem rules against them, you dont know politics.
Overall, I think caucuses are undemocratic because many voters cannot participate and it is not secret ballot. We would not promote this in another country. In fact, we have fought against non-democratic processes when promoting democracy in other countries. Yet we allow it in our own? For a voting process to be democratic by definition, it must be secret ballot and all voters must have the opportunity to vote.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 1:53 pm 1:53 pm
Actually a revote in Michigan is opposed by many election clerks – as it will disinfranchise voters more than they were before the January 15th primary. A revote at this point would not be fair – many reasons – including the number of people who voted a republican ballot because there were assured their vote for a democrat would not count. These individuals would not be allowed to vote in a primary.
Posted by: Becky In MI | March 20, 2008, 2:03 pm 2:03 pm
Se and others – the pledge was to “not campaign”. Neither candidate can decide who counts and who doesnt and that was not the pledge/agreement. Even now, neither candidate can decide what counts and what doesnt. You seem to forget all these people agreeing etc are lawyers who would never sign an agreement that back anyone into a political corner.
What they can do is recommend, oppose, agree, fight, or appeal.. all within the rules of the DNC and the rule of law. Right now we are waiting a court decision in FL 11th Circuit Court of Appeals and we are waiting a meeting by the DNC credentials committee in April. So FL is not settled yet. Al Sharpton (Obama’s man) has publicly stated that he will sue the DNC if they seat FL or MI delegates. A FL superdelegate has filed suit on behalf of FL voters. an independent voting group in TX is expected to file suit because TX is not allowing a caucus audit. I have no doubt MI will become a fight in court also. The only chance to keep things out of court is if the DNC credentials committee in April comes up with a solution that is fair, does not disenfranchise voters, and is implemented regardless of what either candidate wants.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 2:05 pm 2:05 pm
Caucuses are a traditional way of selecting Leaders. Guess you could say they are a truly AMERICAN institution.
And yes the Caucus favors the Candidate with high:
a)Likeability; and/or
b)high numbers committed supporters.
A caucus measures depth of support as well as the breadth of support. A primary measures name recognition and/or familiarity.
So Hillary is at a disadvantage in a Caucus because of the Likeability Factor (or lack thereof) as well as the lack of truly committed supporters.
But Hillary does better in a Primary where the Clinton name is well known.
The rules are the rules, however. It is something they try to teach you in kindergarten.
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 2:05 pm 2:05 pm
CG – I dont think that is totally true. I have a lot of associates in WA who voted in both the caucus and the primaries. They said most of the voters in WA had no clue about the caucuses and are ###### their traditional primary vote by mail did not count.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 2:08 pm 2:08 pm
DC Voter — I think that many of the points you make about caucuses are valid. But it is a bit unfair to walk into the contest, painfully aware of all of the rules and expectations up front, and then complain about it as soon as you start losing. I think most, objectively, would approach an individual with this approach with a healthy amount of skepticism. This is a Clinton, she knows what the systems are, she claims to be the experienced one, and yet she’s only crying foul about this system that she’s been familiar with for decades, coincidentally, once she starts losing.
The exercise here isn’t whether caucuses are democratic or not, it is why did this experienced candidate get the rule book and get out-organized and strategized by a neophyte? Hillary knew the game and has been beaten thus far by a candidate who played by the same rules she was given.
BTW, the rules also say that superdelegates can vote for who they please. So, she’s well within her right to seek their support now that that’s her only road to the nomination. That’s what the rules say. Simply put, she needs to follow them across the board, but she won’t because that’s not politically expedient for her.
Posted by: Rstar | March 20, 2008, 2:13 pm 2:13 pm
Becky – while I wont argue that most clerks do not want a revote, i would question their motive… perhaps they dont want the work LOL
on the people that crossed over to try to fix the rep primary by claiming to be republicans, well i have no sympathy there… democrats dont want reps doing that to their primaries yet they will go do it to theirs since they were given the opportunity?… imho they reap what they sow
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 2:16 pm 2:16 pm
Commander,
I agree with much of what you say, but caucuses also measure who can get to the caucus. But this brings me back to organization. All the candidates should know that and need to strategize around that. Obama has been the much better and innovative commander of his campaign, which is the first test of the prospective commander in chief. HRC hasn’t shown the same ability to do this, especially given all that “experience” she has.
Posted by: Rstar | March 20, 2008, 2:18 pm 2:18 pm
I’m from WA and we were ticked off the primary wouldn’t count. All the Obama supporting major newspapers did their best to let us know it wouldn’t count, probably so we wouldn’t go out to vote. Well, a lot of us did anyhow.
In regards to the article, why is Obama just fine with a Superdelegate primary and not letting those people in MI and FLA have a say? Every day he looks more and more like a typical corrupt, self serving politician.
Posted by: Belle | March 20, 2008, 2:20 pm 2:20 pm
DCV say – CG – I dont think that is totally true.
Maybe. But close enough. My sources say that if the O supporters pounded the polls on Primary Day, O would have won the state by 33.82% instead of 38% he won on caucus night.
But the rules are rules and nobody is above the law. ANd we all gotta respect the law.
BTW, DCV did you hear there was one county (garfield or a nearby Cty off da top o my head, good pheasant hunting there) in WA where NOBODY caucused for Hillary…lol.
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 2:27 pm 2:27 pm
Rstar – I agree she was out-organized out-raised and out-campaigned… I also agree she knows the rules well. Wolfson is incompetent without a doubt. Her last campaign manager (controlled the funds) just was not ready for such an unpredictable election. Since Maggie took over, Ickes came on board, and Clinton started doing what she knows best, she has been turning things around swiftly. If she had Carville instead of Wolfson and Penn, she would have already locked up the nom.
However, one very important point to note is, even with the odds against her as stated above, she is still standing and gaining ground fast. Even the expert pollsters I watched yesterday stated the election was already turning in her favor prior to Obama lying about Wright last Friday.
But for me this is not a decision we should make based on who plays the game better. This is not a game, it is a a nomination process for a very serious job in a very serious time in our country and the world. I think that is why she has held onto the core and is gaining ground in spite of Obama, Axelrod, Rice, and Bill Clinton – all of which affect her negatively. Everything she wants is within the rules – what she is doing is encouraging them to follow the process to get the delegates seated – both candidates claimed to be for this prior to January. Proposing a superdelegate convention is not within the rules that I know of and that is why Ickes said it would never happen.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 2:28 pm 2:28 pm
I dont doubt that CG – every state has its share of areas that include mostly prejudiced people. That is why it is a good thing there are systems that do not allow any one demographic to determine the outcome of the election. It works both ways. So I dont pay much attention to small area statistics like that. That would be just as bad as paying attention to a poll that only sampled one area of a state and called it a national indicator. LOL
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 2:31 pm 2:31 pm
DCV say: “every state has its share of areas that include mostly prejudiced people.”
Is it now HRC’s postion that the people of S.E. WA ST. are all bigots? Bold thing to say.
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 2:39 pm 2:39 pm
I am a Democrat from Florida. It is disingenuous to say that Florida had a Primary Vote. The Primary Vote which we Floridians all knew would not count was held the same day as a Property Tax Reduction amendment. This accounts for the high turnout, not people showing up for a primary. However, I almost did not vote in the Primary because it was not going to count, but I figured I was there anyway so why not. To count the vote when it was not supposed to count disenfranchises everyone who believed that their votes were not necessary and disregards the wishes of renters who did not vote because they had no stake in the tax reduction amendment being passed. Furthermore, there may have been a large number of potential voters who decided not to vote because they believed that their vote did not count. If you check the tallies, the Republicans had a larger turnout. How many states did that occur? For me, it is a redo or nothing…. a 50/50 split is ok too.
Posted by: Marjory | March 20, 2008, 2:40 pm 2:40 pm
Regarding her being out-campaigned and out-raised, I think it is important to put that in perspective.
Some Obama supporters are rich dems who are typically very liberal. I havent seen any stats on the Independents but I do know most are considered liberal latte so same thing there. Other supporters include the college students who have been traditionally apathetic and unreliable. But only 30% of his funds are from grass roots voters… so he sort of misleads people as any politican would do unfortunately. Clinton on the other hand has support from moderate democrats, moderate independents, some republican women, most democrat or Independent women, and blue collar workers. Should it be any surprise she raises less money? Not really, most of her supporters make less money. Obama’s money is what gave him the money to do the ground operations he has done. People are paid versus Clinton’s mostly volunteer ground troops. So in that sense she was outcampaigned for most caucus states because of his rich backers. But most of those will not vote dem in Nov so many of his wins are hollow, ie. most of his caucus state wins had less than 3% VEP turnout because there are hardly any dem voters in those states. Even the experts are saying electability is in her favor because she has proven she can win states that can win the 270 vote electoral college. His argument on that was simple – he claims dems will back whoever gets the nom. The polls are clearly indicating that is not true so her argument is valid.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 2:46 pm 2:46 pm
CG – i didnt say that.. i will clarify… we all know there are certain areas that are anti-Clinton because of Bill or her statement in 1992 telling a reporter her work would never have been under scrutiny if she had stayed home and baked cookies. Homemakers (typically republican, rural, or evangelical) were offended. She was quoted out of context by the Republican incumbent camp when Bill was running against them… no big surprise but it has had a lasting effect. Unfortunately, conservative women are worse than men about keeping women from succeeding. They tend to think it is not a woman’s place to be in charge and these end up being anti-Hillary voters. Why is it prejudicial? Because it is gender bias from both male and female voters. Over the national picture, the majority of women are voting for Clinton so that is helping her. My point is… if there were no gender bias she would get a fair shake. But that is not realistic because we are all human and the facts support the gender bias in our society and its effect on the election. Is there a racial bias too? Certainly, and I am sure there are areas that are prejudicial that would never vote for a black candidate. However, on a national level, the facts show that the only racial disparity in voting is actually the black voting bloc in favor of Obama. This supports what Ferraro was trying to say even if she didnt say it softly.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 2:56 pm 2:56 pm
DCV – Refresh me on the delegate math again.
If HRC loses on the Pledged Delegate Count, number ofStates Won (I know some states or more equal the others) and the popular vote, just how does HRC “win” the nomination?
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 2:59 pm 2:59 pm
Marjory – i am sorry things are so screwed up with the FL votes yet again. I read a letter from your state dem committee that stated most FL voters do not want a revote and that is why they were not doing it. They are asking for their vote to count as is form the primary. I think what you say is true but the facts show the FL turnout for the dems was twice what it was in 2004 so they may have a point there too. Hopefully the DNC will decide in committee in April or the 11th circuit court will decide when they issue their decision in a month or so.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 3:00 pm 3:00 pm
Rstar
Interesting observation about organizational skills and command of campaign as being indicative of a good executive.
At first blush, I find this pursuasive.
But what troubles me is that Hillary is supposedly the ONE who is ready on day ONE. And yet her campaigne team was beaten so decisively in so many states.
It gives me pause to think, dare I say, that Hillary does not quite live up to her billing as Experienced and Ready on Day One.
Looks like Obama is ahead of her on that score. IDK, am I missing something here… Rstar?
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 3:11 pm 3:11 pm
Rstar – even if the campaigns somehow strategized around getting the disabled and elderly to the caucuses that does not take away from two very important aspects: many have to work (the core of the dem party) and the people that attend the caucuses (not all) are easily influenced by peer pressure. Caucus results cannot therefore represent the will of the people who support democratic candidates.
Given the fact that Obama’s strategy was designed around the caucus system it is not a surprise he does well in them. He has the liberal latte (rich enough to attend), the housewives and retired (if they can get a babysitter and transportation), and the college students. Let’s be realistic about peer pressure. Housewives and retired people care about getting along with their neighbors. College students care about getting along with the other students. So now we have 3 of 4 types of his supporters who would likely be affected by peer pressure. We saw in Nevada that union workers were pressured to caucus for Obama and the majority got mad and stood up to them and caucused for Clinton. But you see, they can do that because they were caucusing at the workplace not the neighborhood places where peer pressure would affect their home life. One could say it was his speeches and motivation but that isnt relevant since he was not at every caucus. So he did well because it matched his supporters. He is assuming it would be enough momentum to get him some primary states and he was right. But he lost that momentum long before the Wright scandal and the race can still go either way regardless of SDs. It will be an interesting primary season to analyze come July.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 3:17 pm 3:17 pm
DCV say “It will be an interesting primary season to analyze come July.”
What!?!
I thought this superdelegate post was about getting the Party insiders to cast their vote early. Say June 6.
This seems perfectly reasonable to get this over sooner rather than later.
Don’t tell me you are against the Superdelegate Primary?
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 3:24 pm 3:24 pm
DC — Sure that is one perspective, but not the only one. I see you’ve bought into the latte sipping BS that Clinton has been walking around talking about. Obama’s coalition is broader than you, and obviously HRC, give him credit for. I know tons of moderate, middle aged, lower-middle class supporters for Obama. I live in neighborhoods with tons of them. I was in a working class area of Ohio for the primary and there was noticable support for Obama. Sure, he didn’t win Ohio, but the point is that your latte description of Obama supporters is not supported by fact and is just a devisive tool used by the Clinton camp to say, he’s not for you but for rich progressives, when in reality, her policies are 90-95% the same as his.
Also, if Clinton has a lock on those voters you mention, why has she won only about half of the states as Obama? Why is she lagging in the popular vote? Are you saying that all the states that Obama won are full of latte-sipping rich people? Come on. You showed yourself to be a little more intelligent than that. Additionally, when it comes to the general, there will be stark differences between whoever is the democratic nominee and McCain. There will certainly be some realignment once everyone’s testosterone comes down a notch. If there aren’t enough people to support either democrat’s agenda vs. what McCain has to offer, we’re in bigger trouble than we think.
But back to your point. Should it be a surprise that someone with the support from the start of the Democratic machine is being outraised? In short, yes. Let’s not forget that this game started with Clinton ahead by 20 points almost across the board. So to put things in perspective, he has out-campaigned and raised someone who was the presumptive nominee. He has brought so many people into politics, which is a good thing, whether they sip whisky, lattes, or milkshakes. Looking at the big picture, Obama, since this game started, has gone from down 20 to up a few to about even (or even down slightly). He’s still in an undeniably strong position, although Clinton is obviously still alive and kicking.
Final point: Let’s not conveniently rely so much on Ohio and Pennsylvania that we lose perspective. Obama has fared well in many states across many types of voters. He has a coalition, albeit a different coalition that Hillary, that can be successful against Bomb Bomb McCain. To assume that because he loses to a democrat in a particular state, he will lose that state to a republican, especially with the policies being trumpeted by McCain, is not exactly a logical argument. At the end of the day, for anyone who would have considered voting for Obama anyway, when his policies are put up against McCain’s, I think the choice will be a bit clearer. And to be honest, I think the same holds true for Hillary if she somehow ends up the nominee.
Posted by: Rstar | March 20, 2008, 3:26 pm 3:26 pm
CG you know very well number of states won mean nothing. For pledged delegates it is all about the delegates. For unpledged delegates it is all about their judgement as it relates to whatever factors they want to consider.
Right now, it is possible and becoming more probable that Clinton can surpass Obama in pledged delegates by June. They are both making their cases to the SD’s of course and I think Clinton will win that argument based on the current polls. Anything can happen though so we all wait and see.
On executive experience indicators, clearly her initial campaign staff made errors. She turned it around swiftly by re-organizing. She is getting a greater ROI while remaining competitive and actually has the momentum shifted to her campaign. So while the initial staff selections may have been a gamble that did not work well for her, she had a measured response that has proven to be the right executive decision.
Before you argue she didnt pick the right staff in the first place meaning she cant be right on day one, I would point out that there are a fair number of experts who analyzed that very point. Their position is that Axelrod has had unlimited sources of money and outspent her 3:1 on average. Yet, he has not locked up the nom for Obama and should have if the ROI would have been proportional. Hence, I dont agree with his initial selection of staff. Currently, it is very apparent his staff is incapable of preparing for and handling these controversy issues that he full well knew were going to come up like Rezko and Wright. There are enough interviews documented with Obama and Axelrod over the last two years to prove they knew these would be issues. His appearance to have a lack of control over his campaign workers like the eco advisor and the foreign policy advisors says one of two things: either he is not in control or he is misleading the voters… either way that is a strong black mark. So I would disagree on who shows the strongest executive decision making capability in their campaigns. When interviewing a candidate a similar toss up might happen… the hiring authority would then compare the qualifications again wouldnt you think? That being the case, even without First Lady years, Clinton is more qualified.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 3:29 pm 3:29 pm
CG – I am opposed to a SD primary because technically it cannot exist within the current party rules. The last state caucus convention is June 29. I would agree to moving the democratic national convention date up to July because that is what the convention is for. This would be done to combat the RNC fixing of the dem primaries and caucuses along with Dean and the DNC screwing up with their fuzzy logic and posturing/playing chicken with the states. Al of the court challenges and the DNC credentials committee processes would be exhausted by that time and the FL and MI delegates would be seated per whatever decision is made by that time.
In FL, the RNC, knowing it would cause havoc, set the dates in opposition to the FL state party and the DNC. But they could not have taken advantage if Dean and his cronies were not so stupid and egotistical. As the attorney stated in the 11th circuit court, had the DNC simply treated all the states equally and said no one can go before Feb 5, there would be no dispute.
In the end, no one will be disenfranchised hopefully. I think too many people do not understand the rules and the appeals processes within the rules and all the options that still need to be exhausted. Most of the superdelegates are leaders who accepted the responsibility that comes with making tough decisions. We need to let the system work as designed in every way. Then maybe the dems will get smart and oust Dean and revamp the rules completely for 2012.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 3:42 pm 3:42 pm
DCV say “Right now, it is possible and becoming more probable that Clinton can surpass Obama in pledged delegates by June.”
Huh. She’d have to win the remaining states at a 70-30 clip or something like that, wouldn’t she?
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 3:49 pm 3:49 pm
DCV say “I am opposed to a SD primary because technically it cannot exist within the current party rules.”
So party rules are important. OK.
Seem to recall the nefarious scheme was approved by the FL House 118-0 and the FL Senate 37-2. The People of MI and FL should remember who broke the rules come time for re-election and act accordingly.
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 3:55 pm 3:55 pm
Rstar – a good debate is always fun! Unfortunately this is the medium we have to work with.
I will quantify: Sure there are Obama followers who are blue collar and lower income. There are also Clinton followers who are liberal latte and college students. I know some of each. My categorizations are based on exit polls on a broader scale than who I know so I hope that helps.
Clinton and Obama have 95% the same platform yes. Also 90% the same voting record. The election, as JFK said in the past, has everything to do with character. I agree if and only if the qualifications are also equal and the bias is equal. We know the bias is not equal. In fact, I think Clinton has more of a disadvantage since the stats support the gender bias on societal perception more so than race. The qualifications are also not equal independent of other traits we the voters want in a President.
The popular vote is too close to really say one or the other has a lead. The delegate count is also fairly close with enough remaining that it could swing to Clinton. I havent looked to see if any of the remaining states have caucuses but Obama does ok in primaries… just not as well as caucuses. I think this is because the caucuses are skewed and non-democratic and we would probably never agree on that LOL.
I do find it interesting to analyze the electoral equivalents for electability sakes and noticed a curious thing that could be correlated. If we apply all or nothing apportioning to the states, it appears to match the electoral equivalent. In other words, Clinton would have over 1400 delegates and Obama would have over 1200 delegates much like her 260+ electors and his 150+ electors.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 3:56 pm 3:56 pm
CG – yep the voters in FL and MI have to take action to oust the ones responsible for attempting to disenfranchise them.
On Clinton potentially passing Obama in pledged delegates, last night’s expert stated the exact same calculation I ended up with. If she “averages” about 60% of the remaining delegates she ties, passes him slightly, or pulls to slightly behind Obama. No matter what happens the SD’s will add to the pot to get close to the numebr of delegates for the nom.
Several weeks ago, it was considered mathematically improbable but you see that was based on historical trends and standard probabilities. This election cannot be analyzed using conventional tools as the pollsters and pundits are learning. Given the current polling for KY, WV, PA and possibly IN and PR, showing very strong wins projected for Clinton, it is now no longer improbable and very much a possiblity. I dont know where you got the 70-30 numbers.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 4:02 pm 4:02 pm
DCV
OK – the Slate site say Hillary has to win 64-36 from here on out to pass O by 2 pledged delegates
Still is a pretty high number is it not?
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 4:13 pm 4:13 pm
hiya llulu – yes I agree he stereotyped white people and in doing so he has lost a lot of supporters per the polls. He is right that white people cannot know what it is like to be black. But he is wrong to say white people are all prejudiced. In fact, his support prior to TX from white voters proves that he is wrong. He was already losing ground for other reasons and the Wright scandal tipped the barrel over. I feel sorry for his grandparents. I am angry that he did not bother to go to his mother’s bedside when she was dying of ovarian cancer. I have to wonder if he does not have personal issues with people that are white based on his actions. Perhaps he really just does not accept his white side. However, I think most voters will agree the office of the President is not the place for him to work on his personal demons.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 4:17 pm 4:17 pm
Rstar say “After years of gridlock, i’m not sure that “fighting” for everything gets us there. We have a culture of politicians, media hosts, etc. yelling at each other and posturing for ratings and re-elections.”
Good point. Basically for the last 16 years, I seen my share of Politicians acting like Dogs Barking at one another.
It gets old.
Posted by: The Commander Guy | March 20, 2008, 4:17 pm 4:17 pm
Dop the Hillary sock puppets really think that Democratic voters in Michigan and Florida won’t vote for Obama is he is the nominee after having won it fair and square? Those Democrats get another chance to vote in November. And hey sock puppets, think about this one. There were plenty of people who voted in the Republican primary who wanted to vote for Obama in Michigan once they realized their vote wouldn’t count. Now Hillary wants to disenfranchise them and not allow them the chance to vote for Obama if there’s a revote. The voters anger in Michigan and Florida should be addressed to their state leaders who had ample time and warning to get back in line. Obama is right, Hillary was telling everyone Michigan and Florida wouldn’t count but know that she needs those votes she plays the victim card once again. Pathetic. Oh, and she LOST Texas. Can we all agree on that one? Bill said she’s get out of she lost Texas. Obama got more delegates after both parts of the election in Texas were tabulated. She lost!!! So why hasn’t she stepped down Bill?
Posted by: MarkieBee | March 20, 2008, 4:18 pm 4:18 pm
Do the Hillary sock puppets really think that Democratic voters in Michigan and Florida won’t vote for Obama is he is the nominee after having won it fair and square? Those Democrats get another chance to vote in November. And hey sock puppets, think about this one. There were plenty of people who voted in the Republican primary who wanted to vote for Obama in Michigan once they realized their vote wouldn’t count. Now Hillary wants to disenfranchise them and not allow them the chance to vote for Obama if there’s a revote. The voters anger in Michigan and Florida should be addressed to their state leaders who had ample time and warning to get back in line. Obama is right, Hillary was telling everyone Michigan and Florida wouldn’t count but know that she needs those votes she plays the victim card once again. Pathetic. Oh, and she LOST Texas. Can we all agree on that one? Bill said she’s get out of she lost Texas. Obama got more delegates after both parts of the election in Texas were tabulated. She lost!!! So why hasn’t she stepped down Bill?
Posted by: MarkieBee | March 20, 2008, 4:19 pm 4:19 pm
CG – did you change numbers for all the states? what did you base your changes on? did you read the note about the numbers not apportioning by district because that would be too complex? they assumed their math would be ok since there was a 1.6% disparity caused by district delegate proportioning within the states so we can think of that as a margin of error. What I did was use the current polling data for each of the remaining states for projections. Remember slate does not allow us to have a percent undecided so you have to adjust for that too. Another way is to play with CNN’s slider delegate tool but you have to do some backgorund math to know what to slide to. ON the number you got, that is higher than last night’s expert who said slightly over 60% but I think even your number is possible considering the current polls.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 4:21 pm 4:21 pm
Rules are rules…oh really?? It is my understanding from some Floridians that Senator Obama did campaign in Florida. He ran national campaign ads on one of the cable networks. These campaign ads also ran in Florida. Senator Clinton and John Edwards did not campaign in Florida. If this is true, then 100% of the delegates should be distributed proportionately. Case closed!!!
Posted by: Louise | March 20, 2008, 4:25 pm 4:25 pm
MarkieBee – you sound really angry and upset which is understandable. But I wanted to point out she did not lose TX. She won the popular vote by a clear margin, she wond the primaries by a clear margin of delegates apportioned, and the caucus delegates are still being counted and will likely be contested because TX is not allowing an audit. The TX SOS does not expect the counting to be completed until Mar 29 at the earliest. The caucus voters are part of the exact same ones who voted in the primaries. These are not new voters so the will of the people was decided in the primary. The caucus is just for the other 1/3 of TX delegates and those are still in question. The MSM sites and TV channels and the campaigns all have different “guesses”. The final tally on all pledged delegates for all states and other entities will not be complete until June 30.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 4:28 pm 4:28 pm
yes Louise he chose to run national ads. He did ask permission to do so and was told it was ok because FL would not count. So in that sense someone gave him permission to campaign in FL. Later on, some of the other DNC people said that person was wrong to give him permission to do so. Clinton supporters urged her to go ahead and run ads since Obama had done so. She chose to honor the agreement to not campaign. So technically, his argument is that he did not break the rules. However, there are plenty of people who state making a national ad buy was not the most efficient way to reach targeted voters in SC (which was his reason for the ads) so they question his motives. Was it a stupid executive decision or was it a sly political ploy to get around the rules and try to get an advantage? Either way it looks bad. This is the reason I say seat FL as is but the courts are going to rule on that in a month or so.
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 4:34 pm 4:34 pm
Rstar – i think you meant pro-choice judges LOL but I will note that Clinton has worked to reduce the number of abortions for years… Obama used what she said to make it sound like his idea LOL (he does that a lot but hey she is his mentor in the Senate)
I agree it will come down to who the voters think is most likely to “bring about” the change we want… throughout the race, Clinton has the confidence of the voters on the issues… voter opinions on character issues like judgement, likability, etc are what we see changing…
i think she has been successful in making her case to the voters regarding confidence in her qualifications… and i am sure she is expecting a lot of gossip and flack in the review of her schedules as First Lady, earmarks, and her taxes… but he has not released all of his returns, schedules, and earmarks either.. McCain has no earmarks cuz he doesnt do anything but rant and rave (earmarks are mostly good and indicate whether you are doing your job for your constituency) and he has not released his tax returns or schedules.. of course he is in no hurry and the dems have not pressed it (they should)
I think a lot of voters are going to be turned off by May because we will have court challenges, party fighting, petty vetting, gossip, media hype trying to keep people interested, campaign attack and defenses, and then finally a primary April 22 followed by one May 6.. the media admits it has a lot of space to fill till then
Posted by: DCVoter | March 20, 2008, 4:50 pm 4:50 pm
Splitting the delegates 50/50 as well as the popular vote in the two states is eminently fair, but fair is not what Clinton wants. She wants the lion’s share in an election where the results were already declared null and void, and she signed off on it. The moment Super Tuesday put her behind the eight ball, she changed her tune (sorry for the mixed metaphor).
The reason why she never made a stink about it before Super Tuesday is because her campaign assumed the primaries would be over after Super Tuesday. She even bragged to reporters about this before Super Tuesday. And it is now clear that her campaign did not have a Plan B if Super Tuesday want bad, and that is why Obama won 11 straight.
Hillary has only herself to blame, but like Bill, acknowledging failure is not a Clinton trait.
Posted by: Ernie of Bayside | March 20, 2008, 7:24 pm 7:24 pm
The DNC is *not* to blame for this mess, at least in Michigan. It is the sad, sad political leadership in the Michigan Democratic party that has effectively disenfranchised Michigan voters. Not the DNC, not either of the candidates. Jennifer Granholm and her cronies are the problem. Turnout was extremely low in the January primary here, and many of us who are loyal Democrats stayed home — there was no one on the ballot we wanted to vote for.
Posted by: John | March 20, 2008, 9:14 pm 9:14 pm
Barak Obama makes me sick. Literally. He is the worst of the slick politicians because he preaches all these good things and then when he is trying to stick it to someone, everyone misses it. The rules about superdelegates state they can vote for who they want. That is the RULES. Obama has been denying voters in FL and MI a chance at a revote, or the right to have their vote counted because of the RULES. Then his slimy behind wants to change this rule and have a superdelegate primary? If his supporters cannot see that it will be four years of lies if he is elected, then they are blind. Hillary and McCain aren’t boy and girl scouts but Obama is worse than any Slick Willie could ever be. Stand up there so sincerely with everyone in the audience boo-hooing and accuse all the whites in the country of being racist. He is an AFRICAN-American. Well, guess what? We need a whole AMERICAN for President. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/pledge-to-vote-against-obama-in-the-general-election
Posted by: Melanie | March 21, 2008, 12:56 am 12:56 am
Florida and Michigan: do not vote for this Monster. He does not care about you. He is in it for himself. That’s all. He is going to get creamed by McCain.
Posted by: tony | March 21, 2008, 6:19 am 6:19 am
The thing I have learned most about the Democratic primary process is that Democrats do not like democracy, do not understand democracy, and do not want to play by the rules of democracy. When the Democratic party has real choices to make, the prevailing attitude turns into the childish approach: “if I don’t win then I’m taking my marbles and going home–and I hate you for not letting me win”. What is the big freaking deal here? The process of selecting the Democratic nominee was set up a long time ago–let the thing play itself out. The whole notion of superdelegates goes back to issues that arose in the 1970s and 1980s, and was supposed to help the party nominate more electable candidates. Obviously, it wasn’t set up to deal with Hillary Clinton vs. Barack Obama, but it is the system that we have right now, for this election. Is Barack going to be better against John McSame, or is Hillary? All indications are that nobody has a clue, not the slightest idea, so let the superdelegates flip their coins, pick somebody, and move on. Let them pick Al Gore if they want to. Then, for NEXT TIME, for 2012, let’s just have a primary where people who are actually democrats select the Democratic nominee by popular vote, all on the same day, end of discussion, and immediately move on to the task of beating the Republicans in the general election.
Posted by: JeffWasHere | March 21, 2008, 9:56 am 9:56 am
I wonder what Obama’s afraid of , not allowing re-vote in Michigan and Florida. Give Obama the uncommitted votes in Michigan, since in the Detoit newspapers Democratic voter were told to vote for him that way. So it would be 40% Obama and 50% Hillary. His name was on the ballot in Florida, let him have the votes he obtained and Hillary the votes she obtained. Republican legislature and Republican Governor decided to have the vote early.
Posted by: jp,michigan | March 21, 2008, 9:58 pm 9:58 pm