Where Are the Democrats Going to Be in June?: A Purely Speculative Exercise

Nice math, Jake, but the fact that Obama has ALREADY won the fight with the Clinton Machine is hardly news.
That net gain for Clinton of 16 pledged delegates will be annihilated by the ‘added delegates’ that will go mainly into Obama’s direction for he won many more states than Clinton.
There is nothing to gain anymore for Hillary in this race and her fall will be deep and painful. The only thing she’ll be left with are piles of debts.

The Clintons have turned what most of us thought was an inevitable Win into what looks like an inevitable Loss. The Clintons left their flank unprotected when they ignored all the Caucuses — and that has seems to have been a fatal error in their Primary was plans. Seems simple now. Just like Iraq probably seemed like a simple “can’t loose” war to Bush in 2003.
Add these are people on whose judgment the World rests?!

I don’t think the math matters all that much. I think what’s going to happen is that Obama’s campaign is going to implode — due to Reverend Wright, Rezko, Ayers, Israel-Palestine, reverse racism, Obama’s cockiness, Michelle’s anger and more. Let’s just hope it happens before August so the superdelegates can do what they’re supposed to do, nominate the strongest candidate to beat McCain in Novemer.

Count MI & FL then the delagates are less than 20 delegates apart. We do live in a fifty state union.Also obama needs superdelagates to reach the magic number also. Why does no one state this fact. Plus if you looking at states in the GE Hillary wins the most electoral college votes needed to be president of the US of A.

We really need to stop talking about the pledged delegate math because the fact of the matter is that the superdelegates are going to put a candidate over the top.

Also to be president of the USA you need to win Ohio, Penn., Fl., and Michigan. Also along with Ma, NY, NJ, CA states that Hillary has one already is likely to carry them in the GE.

Jake, that would be 2,024 delegates, not “2,204 delegates.” Speculative was right.

Ah, I see you have edited your total already.

Pretty inflamatory Post, considerating how much hate there is out there for a certain subject called MATH.
Alegrebra, I can understand a little animousity. But there ain’t more enemies of MATH, outside the whole 4th grade that is, than you find on the internets these days.
As I said, pretty edging posting going on today.

Ken:
The Clinton campaign is not going to smear Obama or sink Obama — it’s the truth that will do it.
And to your point that Obama is a good campaigner: Clinton is a terrific senator and I’ll take that any day over a rock star-organizer who loses his paperwork.

Sadly Hillary i going to lose and I have to blame her to extent for that. BUT THAT IN NO WAY MAKES OBAMA A BETTER CANDIDATE. Her campaign strategy was not good — do not automatically think that she would be a bad president..!!!
But Obama….dont just assume that all hillary supporters will vote for u. I would rather not vote for anyone. Let him win with thte votes of the people who truly want him to the be the president and not with the proxy votes of hillary supporters. Let us see if he is capable of that!

@Vnd
“And to your point that Obama is a good campaigner: Clinton is a terrific senator and I’ll take that any day over a rock star-organizer who loses his paperwork.”
If Clinton is such a terrific Senator, how to explain Obama’s clear lead in edorsements from fellow Dem Senators over Clinton?

Let it play out. The MSM needs to stop playing favorites, but we know that will not happen. Is it me or does Keith Olbermann look like he is coming unglued?

Being where you describe in June and describing in April the likely place we will end up in June are two different things.
IMO, once there are no elections on the horizon and it becomes clear that Obama leads by every metric the democratic party will coalasce around their nominee. Unless Clinton has managed to pull out the popular vote totals; and then she will still have a huge problem convincing superdelegates to move towards her.
I have read an interview on The Page that suggests Sen.Clinton does not think Sen. Obama can ever win given his race and the Wright story. And maybe she’s right; but even given that supposition the democratic party if they arrive at the situation you describe can not deny Sen. Obama the nomination.
He will have won it fairly.
But we need to let the process play out in respect to the broad support Sen. Clinton holds within the party. And come June, the superdelegates need to make a clear decision once the voting ends.
At that point, I think it will be clear who the nominee is and we can turn to solidifying the party.

Your math is a little wrong. Bear with me for a moment:
Needed to win Nomination: 2024*
*This includes MI, FL
Unfortunately, that has not been resolved (it will become a much bigger problem after the last vote is cast).
FL Delegates = 186, MI Delegates = 128
Total in limbo = 314
2024 – 314 = 1867
So given the context in which the contest was started (not counting MI and FL), Obama would be the winner without the help of the superdelegates.
But no one is bringing that up due the polarizing nature of the earlier DNC ruling. I am predicting that if Hillary stays in until after Puerto Rico, the FL/MI issue will become the massive 64,000 pound gorilla we are projecting it to be. And the fence sitting supers will have to come down on one side or the other.
Politics are messy and no matter how you shake it, there are going to be a lot of alienated people no matter how the supers decide.

Ed S — I think the total does not include MI and FL. If they were to be included, the total delegate count would be *added* into the current total of 4,047.

Jim — The USA is not a democracy, it is a republic.

Dee, no it’s not.

LOM…Your right this is a republic, but one person, one vote is honest and fair the electoral college is not, that was proven 8 years ago.

TCG — You come here day in and day out spouting your superior math skills and yet, the numbers still don’t add up for Obama, do they?

If the popular vote in Florida and Michigan are counted, Obama only leads the popular vote by a little over 300,000 votes. With the primaries forthcoming, that will not be a hard number to overcome. I am another Florida voter who will not vote for Obama, not so much against him as a personal protest against the DNC. Clinton won 81 of 83 counties to Uncommitted’s 2 counties and 59 of Florida’s 67 counties to Obama’s 9. Also, Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina moved their primaries and caucuses up earlier than their prescribed timeframe in DNC Rule 11a and were not penalized. I have tried to get some explanation from the DNC as to why but they are not responding.

Some one is too naive to think Clintons will give up their power that easily…
There are still a lot of arguements on going…
FL and MI will be one of the biggest ones…
It is a political fight between two sides: pro-Clintons and anti-Clintons…
Obama can not unite Dems without the help of Clintons…..
Without Clintons, Obama will be defeated in GE just like Gore and Kerry…
That is the fact…

LOM
I got skillz, but I ain’t claiming MATH is one of them. But there are people with the Math Skillz on the internets that provide the straight dope here.
The Numbers don’t go Hills way. Proportional delegate awards in the remaining States means Hills has to win the remaining states by margins of 60-40 just to close the gap.
Course the SupaDs could conspire and throw the nomination to Hills anyway, so you got some hope.
Expect more of these stories in the coming days and weeks.

Jake-
Sometimes I agree with your take on the races, sometimes I don’t. However, I just wanted to take a second to congratulate you on the most interesting, informative column on poltics today.
I really appreciate what you and your team do everyday.
-D

For the Hillary fanatics, you fail/conveniently forget how polarizing she is. Many won’t vote for a woman, for a Democrat, for a Clinton, etc. She’ll energize the Republican zealots of the far right to come out in droves. The new, young voters that have come out for Obama won’t go to Hillary… they’ll stay home. The independents? I for one am not crazy about McCain, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before myself (and other independents I know) vote for Hillary. Keep thinking she’s going to win it all.

Even if Clinton won all the 10 remaining contests 55-45, her net gain will be 56. That leaves Obama with a 80 delegate lead at the end of June (1889 to 1809).

Prim if Fl and MI dont matter then why not count them???
Obama cant win the white house without them?
Its looking like Obama cant even win NY.
How about lets speculate where the dems will be inn NOV, not June.
If Obama is the nominee, the answer is out of luck!
He’s totally unelectable.

I dont think Obama can win NY. I’ve thought about it. NY and Florida have a lot of connections.
Those videos of Rev. Wright blaming the US for 9/11 wont go over real well there either.
I’ll say it again. Obama can’t win NY!
He is unelectable. The dems either want to win the white house or they don’t.

Illinois
Obama 1,301,954
Clinton 662,845
The crooked Chicago machine helped Obama won by over 640,000 votes. Let’s see the results without Illinios. That’s all of Obama’s lead and then some.

…and in the end Obama will lose with a landslide from McCain, should Obama come that far.
Fact of the matter is that even if hell freezes over I will never vote for a pied piper like Obama.
Hillary ever, Obama never!

I am tired of hearing about counting FL and MI and their “disenfranchised” voters. This was not an election – it was a primary. Voters are not disenfranchised unless they are not counted in an actual election. The primary is for parties to pick their candidates for the election.
FL and MI Democratic parties chose to break the rules knowing that their delegates would not be counted. Any Democratic voters paying attention went to the polls knowing their votes probably would not be counted.
If the party rules don’t have to be followed, what is the point of having them? If FL and MI want their votes counted so badly, they should have figured out how to do a revote before now.

I have never seen more sore losers than the supposed ‘democrats’ who complain they’ll never vote for Obama.
Hillary has lost at this point… more people wanted Obama. Get over it.
You’ll notice it went from vaguely rational arguments about how Hillary would comeback, etc. to the current random baseless allegations of ‘he can’t win X’, ‘he’s too Y’.
You need to remember that you’re not a member of the ‘Clinton’ party, you’re a Democrat. They share many of the same agendas and viewpoints.
You’re telling me you’d really prefer extending the war, just to show us all that you’re really pissed your candidate wasn’t picked?
How about leaving health insurance up to the free market?
Maybe we should let them bomb Iran, just to show the rest of the democrats what happens when you don’t pick MY candidate?
If Clinton stages the greatest comeback in political history, I’ll vote for her this fall… because I’m actually thinking of the issues and the country, not my ego.

The speculation on Rev Wright’s speeches impact neglect the fact that everyone who can read is also blaming the US for 9-11, not just the Rev Wright. Do you folks forget that the CIA trained and supported Osama bin Laudin and his entire cadre of murderers or did you only starting reading last week? It is too easy (and totally false) to say that only the Reverend blames the US for its many bad moves in the world. Bush I committed treason when he and another former CIA director illegally arranged for the sale of missiles to the terrorists in Iran and the arms salesman from Maryland who arranged it did time in federal prison.
The apple didnt fall very far from the tree.

Jack,
Thanks for clearing up more previous post on the math.
To my fellow democrats, get over the character assasinations. I am voting democrat this election no matter who comes out on top.
I really believe my 13 year old son has a firmer grip on economics than McCain. And also with the latest news today that McCain is NOT against a pre-emptive strike on our so called enemies, I feel like I have just woken up in a bizarro world where up is down and sane is crazy.
Get over it.

Silliness to be debunked:
1. MI and FL- What about all the people who stayed home, didn’t vote in the primaries? How do you allocate their rights? In MI, there was just one major candidate on the ballot. Does this remind anyone of the USSR?
2. The efforts to draw stupid, yes stupid, conclusions: How many people know the history and correlation, or lack of same, between primary wins and general election results? To be simple and clear for the knuckleheads who haven’t bothered to do more than spout lines from one camp, many elected presidents have won in states in which they lost the primary campaigns, and many have been winners in the primaries, only to lose a state in the presidential elections. Both Obama and Clinton have won primaries in states in which they would both very likely lose to McCain in the GE, and both have lost primaries in states in which either would easily defeat McCain.
3. If a candidate has meaningful, real experience and judgment, they should be able to demonstrate executive ability by running an effective and well-organized campaign. Who does that not describe?

The Indiana numbers are not going to happen in the manner you speculate. She only has a 3% lead in polling now.
She certainly wont get the 10% victory your numbers require.
HRC doesnt even have your speculated 10% lead in her home state Penn anymore, despite her cute baby home film.
Its 6% for her in one poll and OH NO!! 2% for Obama in another poll, with twice the poll respondents ie less wiggle room for error.
You are dreaming this close race.

To the author who says the liberals do a spin on Clinton’s win in Texas: the actual result of the voting in Texas is that Clinton lost by a delegate count of 99 for Obama and 94 for Clinton. Clinton has such control of the media that you still think she won.
She won the primary, with 100,000 Limbaugh Republicans being the precise difference, Obama won the caucus, in which more than 1 million persons voted, and the net Texas reult is Obama won more delegates in Texas, not HRC.
She lost Texas, March 29th, 99-94

Ok now we know why congress is messed up with Democrats in charge, they can not even do there own election without confusion.
All you Dems do know the reason behind the large number of super delegates correct, they rested using super delegate in 1982 because in case the pledge delegates went to a person the elitists did not want!
Look it up

Bruce Becker – I can’t believe that you still throw around that 100,000 Limbaugh Republicans number. 100,000 republicans in Texas did not vote for Hillary because Rush said so. Sure, some. Just like in Wisconsin where republicans were voting for Obama because they thought he was the weaker candidate. There was plenty of evidence of that.

Obama is going to carry Michigan and Pennsylvania and Ohio in the fall, because they will love his plan to rebuild our infrastructure and put people back to work.
And people all over the country, in big states and small states will choose Obama or the little red hen over McCain, now that
A. He has endorsed the failed policy of pre-emptive strikes and the simultaneous failed policy of no negotiations and no use of the UN.
B. Bush II says he wont sign the bill to save homeowners because it would be $300 Billion, but we spent a trillion on the fake war?
Nonsense. The little red hen or your grandmother will beat McCain and Condi on the pre-emptive (unprovoked attacks) and his total stupidity on economics, and Bush’s outright visciousness re the homeowners while bailing out the Investment Banks’s for billion. 1 million registered voters are about to lose their homes. Also, there will be bank failures.
Dont even worry about the Republicans. All they have going for them is the willingness to prevent minorities from having the same civil rights as the majority, raving the fundementalists to vote against their interests to appoint fundementalist judges.
Perhaps the majority will reject that low appeal to choose peace, prosperity. affordable medical coverage, a good education for our young and civil rights for all.

PENN and Ind will be a good test for Obama to see how many white votes he can get…
If he wins, then he will win GE..
If he lose, then he will be defeated in the end, either by Hillary or McCain..

For those who erroneously believe that Republicans voted for Sen. Clinton in Texas, I suggest that you do something very unique and check out the facts.
We don’t have a national election for a President; we have the Electorial College. So, being able to win the Dem. primary in a state such as Wisconsin is of no significance. Being able to win Cal., NY, Ohio, Fla. is significant.
There are folks in this country will not vote for a female president; there are folks who will not vote for an Afro-American president. But there is a larger portion of voters who will not vote for any candidate, Rep. or Dem. — Afro-American, Asian, Native American, Latino or White, whose minister spewed anti-Semetic and anti-American comments from the pulpit and in his church’s bulletin.
And Sen. Obama’s statements that his time as a youngster living in an another country gives him more foreign policy credentials than either Clinton or McCain is arrogant, delusional, silly and stupid.

I only vote for Hillary!

“An AP-Ipsos poll taken in late February had Obama leading McCain 51-41 percent. The current survey, conducted April 7-9, had them at 45 percent each”
Well, no wonder. The only candidate who the MSM has given a free ride so far is John McCain. It’s amazing.
But that’ll change when the Dems have a nominee… just wait see McCain drop in the polls from then on.
NO Republican would be able to win the GE this year. 80% of Americans feel that our country is on wrong track, so what they wish for is: yes, CHANGE. One of the 3 remaining candidates refuses to provide just that. It’s the Republican.

Hillary Clinton has already proven she can win big in the big electoral rich states that are the must wins for the Dems in November. That’s what it most important to a Dem victory in November.
For example, in Ohio, Hillary was outspent by Obama 4 to 1 yet Obama won only 5 out of 88 counties, those with large black voter turnout, the only voting group Obama won. Today, in Ohio polls, Hillary beats McCain by 10 points while Obama ties or loses to McCain. I can assure you Barack Hussein Obama will NEVER carry Ohio in the general election, NEVER. If you cannot win in Ohio you cannot win the Presidency. Same story holds true in states like Florida, Michigan, Penn. and New York.
Obama is unelectable. The Dems are foolish to even consider nominating him. He does not belong on the ticket at all. Obama’s caucus wins are meaningless in the general election. Seriously, NO one believes that Utah is in play for the Dems, particularly Obama.
Obama’s negatives are rising with the revelations about Antoin Rezko, Ayers & Dorhn, Emil Jones, Crown, Exelon, Odinga of Kenya, Africa (Obama’s cousin????) and the scariest of all, Auchi!
ABC should be investigating and reporting on the Obama-Rezko-Auchi connection as well as asking Obama’s campaign manager David Axelrod and Obama supporter David Wilhelm (who is named in Rezko’s criminal trial underway in Chicago) about their connections to Rezko and Auchi. Auchi is also currently under criminal indictment.
The Odinga – Obama connection is also serious. Jake, could you investigate this????
Why do you think the corporate owned media is relentlessly and shamelessly promoting Barack Hussein Obama (it’s his name) 24/7 while attacking Hillary 24/7??? They know he’s unelectable.
No amount of media promotion is EVER going to make Obama electable. He would be absolutely CRUSHED in a general election.
*VOTE SMART! VOTE PATRIOTIC! VOTE HILLARY CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT!*

From Newsweek:
“Against McCain, Obama lost ground among women — from 57 percent in February to 47 percent in April. Obama dropped 12 points among women under 45, 14 points among suburban women and 15 points among married women.
He also lost nine points or more among voters under 35, high-income households, whites, Catholics, independents, Southerners, people living in the Northeast and those with a high school education or less.”
Obama support is starting to fatigue as more people become suspicious of his message. He is losing his support from the most likely voters as the Wright story and other close extremist associations slowly erode his polled-well-last month-but-don’t-really-commit votes.
Meanwhile the war waged on Clinton from within the Democratic Party is destroying their only viable candidate. This could change in a day if Edwards endorses Clinton.

Obama’s unprecedented Pennsylvania ad buy
Sasha Issenberg April 8, 2008 02:57 PM
PHILADELPHIA — If, as has been widely predicted, Barack Obama loses Pennsylvania, it will not be for lack of effort.
Obama is currently spending $2.2 million per week on television here, over twice what Hillary Clinton is spending and an unprecedented ad buy in Pennsylvania, according to Democratic media consultant Neil Oxman, who is not working for a candiadte.
“Nobody has ever spent 2.2 million in this state: not Rendell, not Specter, not Casey, not Santorum, not Bush, not Kerry,” said Oxman, naming the best-funded candidates to run statewide in recent years. “That’s unbelievable.”

@anne
“If the candidate is Obama, that will be the end of the democratic party. Moderates will go to McCain because he is a moderate”
anne, this is just nonsense. The recent AP Ipsos poll shows the maybe unexpected move from moderate Democrats towards Obama, away from Clinton. He has taken over the lead among these moderates now. Hard to imagine that they will jump from Obama to McCain. So things are still very much in a flux -
except for the hard numbers as we know them today, and these indicate that Hillary has already lost the nomination, regardless of FA and MI counting or not, and regardless of her decision to stay in the race or not.

Florida and Michigan — That is the big deal!
That is why the status quo isn’t bad for Clinton. If it goes to the convention and Obama and the DNC block Michigan and Florida delegations from counting, then the DNC will have a problem in the fall.
You cannot snub two big states like that — no matter what the DNC ‘rules’ are.
Obama’s campaign is going to implode — due to Pastor Wright, Rezko, Ayers, Israel-Palestine, reverse racism, Obama’s cockiness, Michelle’s anger and more. Let’s just hope it happens before August so the superdelegates can do what they’re supposed to do — nominate the strongest candidate to beat McCain in November.

Is Obama really that bad to Hillary supporters? You’d really prefer a continuation of Bush economic and military policies? I will vote for either Democrat, but I prefer Obama. And I honestly think than when people have a few months to mull it over (without the passionate anger of the moment), the vast majority of Hillary supporters will see that Obama is very similar to her on the issues, and vice versa.
I can understand the anger, and I know it goes both ways. But I’m much, much, much more angry at Bush, and therefore McCain for wanting to continue his policies, than I am at either Obama or Clinton. Will you really vote out of spite, rather than what you think is best for the country? Or do you really think McCain is better for the country than Obama?

Has everyone forget that a Court of Law has rules the Michigan vote unconstitutional? Those numbers can not, will not, do not count! They can make symbolic display of seating them 50/50, but outside of that, there is little that they can do, because those results have been ruled invalid. Clinton supporters: DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? Or have you conveniently forgot? Clinton supporters who refuse to accept a black man as President: How can Hillary win when over half of the total voting population find her distrustful? Find her polarizing? In your world, do you honestly think that she only needs her supporters to win the GE? Doesn’t need the AAs, doesn’t need the youth vote? Doesn’t need the fed up Republican and Independent cross over voters that Obama has rallied on his side? That there are many, many more Republicans that will vote against her in a GE vice Democrats who will vote for her? Do any of you so called Clinton Democrats care about the disenfranchised voters who followed the rules as laid out and didn’t vote for either candidate in Michigan and Florida? I guess you don’t, not if it affects Hillary’s aspirations. So hypocritical the Clinton campaign and many of it’s supporters have become. Rezko and Write! Big issues to you, but Peter Paul, Norman Hsu, CAFTA, NAFTA, Iraq, the lies, the inconsiderations, the gross miss-steps, the lack of a coherent strategy et al mean nothing to you! That spells hypocrisy, pure and simple! You don’t want to vote for Obama, fine. But, if he is the nominee, and you decide that your hatred for blacks, or men, or whatever it is that drives your anger and prevents you from supporting him, then deal with the consequences of another Republican White House. You will have deserved it, for there is NO WAY, no way that Hillary will ever find her fanny seated in the chair of the President. Not if the American public has anything to do with it!

To all those who say Obama can not win in the GE: that is undoubtedly what many people told him about the Dem Nomination 6 months ago.
To all the OH harpers: There is nothing magical about OH. HISTORICALLY, there has been a statistical co-incidence. Nothing more. Mathematically there are many ways to win an election without winning OH.
To all the “what about the SD’s/”: Super Delegates are politicians; if the Obama maintains his overall lead, they will vote for him. Look how many he has picked up in the past month compared to HRC. The Clinton’s have already attempted to publicly bully them without success. No way they would someday go behind closed doors and agree with them.
Bottom line is that without a huge HRC win in PA, it is over. If PA is close, he’ll strike a deal for her support and then help with her debt.
At which time MI and FL will be seated and everyone will be happy!
Or I could be wrong…

Hillary will be the winner.If not the democatic party will not win in Nov.2008

I’m a Hillary supporter, but I will support Obama if he wins. I don’t understand how ANYONE who supports Hillary and thinks the Bush administration is among the worst in history could vote for McCain. Please, please use your head and not your heart- I really hope Hillary manages to pull it out, but I WILL support either candidate, because I think a McCain continuation of Bush’s policies would be DISASTROUS.

Well…of course Obama is winning if you DON”T count MI and FL… I thought this Obama was a civil rights lawyer… apprently voters only count when it doesn’t cut into his numbers… what a FRAUD!!!
as for the person who said “Please, please use your head and not your heart- I really hope Hillary manages to pull it out, but I WILL support either candidate, because I think a McCain continuation of Bush’s policies would be DISASTROUS.”
DON”T THINK SO!!!… Mccain is getting our vote…this is no longer the Dem party I remember… Kerry/Obama “Universal Healthcare a NONstarter”…on ABC’s “THIS WEEK”….

” Lily from Florida”:
Well, guess WHAT?? I actaully voted for the FRAUD OBAMA in Feb. before researching him…He scares me more than Mccain!!! I have a loyalty to this country.. not a political party… and if this Dem party can’t even stand up for a core value like Universal Health care…
BUT stands by Obama after learning his associations with Wright and other racist, bigotted, antisematic,antiamerican…well…I WILL NOT THEN BE ASSOCIATED BY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY…

Considering the states of PA, KY, IN, PR and WV qill have twice as many voters as the Obama states (NC, OR, SD, GM, MT), Hillary Clinton will have a net gain of 250K-500k votes winning the POPULAR VOTE (With FL and MI).

This is not nearly as complicated as you want to make it.
In the democratic process, each vote should count.
The super delegates do not have any dictate as to how they should vote. Ultimately their vote will hopefully go in the best interest of their party as to who can win in the General Election. Clearly their role is separate from the popular vote. It was created for that purpose.
See, all quite simple.

But where do you get the idea that Hillary is pulling out dirty tricks? Do you call it dirty tricks that supporters of Hillary, both women, men and black voters are dirty tricks? We spend hours of our own time calling voters all over the country. We canvass for her. WE read articles attacking her and respond to these articles with fact that we know. We know what her ideas are on issues. (Not like Barack supporters who when ask, can’t discuss his ideas) We know that Barack’s ideas seem to magically develop after hearing Hillary in the debate. Before that, he talked in generalities. What did Hillary actually do while first lady and senator from New York that makes you think she is so devious? She is a woman like my frontier grandmother who was strong, loving, respected and caring. She would go out of her way to make sure her frontier store provided credit, some never repaid and she never ask for repayment, to any person in need. She did this without making that person feel demeaned. Behind the scenes I watched her and developed a real model for “women”. She had a partnership with my grandfather that enveloped religion, economics and a good community that was awesome. Neither one felt the other was subject to the other. That is the person that Hillary is; is that what is so objectable to Hillary? That she is a strong competent woman; that you buy into the hateful disrespectful tone of the media that a woman dares to raise herself to the level of President? Again name one dirty, hateful trick. Oh, maybe it is that she dared to say that she would leave a church if she had a pastor who spite forth hate messages about America instead of love as Christianity teachers. Are you buying the venom of the media when they questioned this as an attack. It is the truth. NO decent person would stay in a church and allow thier children to hear this, UNLESS THEY BELIEVED IT THEMSELVES or were a political OPPORTUNIST! Either reason should disqualify them from being president of our United States. Maybe you buy into the twisting of her words when she tried to do honor to Dr. King in South Carolina, when she repeated historical truth that Lyndon JOhnson rose to support Dr. King and get the 1964 Civil Rights act passed. Obama’s people savagely accursed her of racism. She spoke the truth! Did Obama’s people have any scruples about demeaning Johnson who stood up for black rights against heavy pressure. Why is the media set around and let this pass? Why didn’t they take the chance of a lifetime and teach a little history to the young blacks who do not really understand the enormous sacrifices made to gain them their rightful place in America. Black, whites, jewish, catholic and protestenant individual did this; some died during this time. How dare the media let this ride without doing their job and calling Barack on this. I have black friends who will not support Barack because to do so would be to betray their long time friends, the Clintons, for race. They feel this would be disloyal and also a betrayal of Dr. King’s dream of having individuals judged by their actions, talents and competence, not race. Read the “I have a Dream” speech. Again what dreadful things has Hillary done, except forego private sector to work in the service of the people, particulary the ones who do not have the power to speak for themselves. The thing I am most amazed at is the fact that every time Hillary actually focuses on the reason Barack is not as qualified for the Presidency as she is, the Obama campaign launches into this attack mode of calling it dirty tricks, mean, racist, etc. The media gives him a free ride on this. Do they continue to pursue him on his contacts with the Canadian government to say, “I don’t really mean what I am saying about NAFTA.” Only FOX is pursuing the Resko connections that Barack has had for years, such as buying prime property at a discount, listening for 20 years to A preacher advocating that America is a murderer, whites are out to keep the black race down, and then LYING about it Be careful, the prosecution of Resko and the group surrounding and supporting Barack for so many years may give us some unpleasant revelations; maybe too late, after Barack is chosen as the nominee. I won’t even go into Barack’s family ties in Africa. I am trying to do the job the media should be doing and determining whether they are true or not. The press is given special considerations in our Constitution for a reason. They are not taking this responsibility seriously. What about right now discussing Barack’s ties to Ayers and other radical groups like the “weathermen”. Keep investigating
Hillary is strong and will use that strength, smartness and talents to work for ordinary Americans like me. She will again help us gain economic prosperity, respect from the world community as well as keep our country safe.

someone on this post asked, “why the anger?”
Let me share MY anger …because my anger is making way to weariness that woman are STILL fighting the same prejudice we have been fighting for sooooo long, and a sadness that if Hillary does not win the nomination (I pray the super delegates will do the right thing!) – that this country – after all we have been through for the last 8 years, will ONCE AGAIN have to chose between two under qualified men.
so here goes…
A woman, highly qualified, exceptionally brilliant, with a deep commitment to this country, with 35 years (a lifetime) of making a difference in both public and private life – of defending the poor, the disabled, the young, of standing up for the rights of women and children everywhere in this word, who has earned the respect of leaders everywhere including Cesar Chavez, Maya Angelou, Gloria Steinem, etc., etc.
… she FINALLY runs for president.
She has the great combination of heart, soul, experience, savvy, poise, brains and compassion.
She is supported by the majority of democrats, she has the nomination in the bag (as she should she is the best candidate). With her the democrats will win in November.
Then from left field a young man, with NO proven experience, NO proven history of ever making a difference, with a bland dismal voting record, with a history of being cheap in donating to charities, starts a campaign based on flowery speech and vague politics – talking about unity and peace.
never mind there was peace and harmony and unity in the party – everyone supported Hillary.
he talks flowery – but has nothing to show that he has ever stood for change, or made a difference for anyone but himself.
then we find out that he surrounds himself with people who are racists – who blame white people for everything – who condemn people for their sexual orientation, and want to subject women.
then we have the media slamming the female and building up the man. everything she does is negative – everything he says is golden. they make sexist insults (as do Obama supporters) of her deviousness, shrill voice, and other sexist remarks. they rake her over the goals, and bring him coffee in bed.
he steals his policies from Hillary – she knows the issues – foreign and domestic inside and out – he parrots everything she says. takes credit for all her ideas.
and blacks flock to him. because of what he has done for his race??? hardly! – Hillary has done more for people of color, especially women of color than Obama has ever done (or will probably ever do.)
young people flock to him… because he has done so much for them??
Yes truly I do feel anger and I feel personally betrayed.
After having sat in boardrooms for many years watching intelligent women work twice as hard as men and get less respect and less pay, and watched women bring great ideas to the table only to have their ideas beaten down only to resurface against from a man’s mouth and suddenly be a viable idea.
yes I am sadden, I am sadden by blacks that flock to Obama, especially black women, who are not being true to chosing the BEST and most qualified candidate.
I am sadden by young ladies following Obama’s flowery words, after all the barriers Hillary, and women like her, have broken to allow them to have the choices they have today.
I am sadden that once again the media has helped divide this country between race and sex. When truly like any job – your proven work history, experience and qualifications are what should get you the job.
I am sadden by women like Nancy Pelosi who has so ardently asked for our first viable female candidate to withdraw early – just because Obama is considering Pelosi as his VP. Sad. sell out.
If women voted for Hillary it’s because she’s a woman. but if blacks, and men, vote for Obama it is because he is somehow he is a better choice?
As a Hillary supporter I will probably not vote in the general election if Hillary is not the nominee.
Why? Because I am sick and tired of having to chose between two unqualified men, who are only in it for themselves.
because Obama will not make a good leader – neither will mccain. Hillary has been there for the democratic party for many years – fund raising for Obama, Pelosi, Richardson and many others – only to be betrayed by them when she is the best candidate.
I have no respect for Obama or his supporters – he knows he is not the best candidate, not the best qualified, and that the republicans want him to win because its Mccain’s only chance to win.
he has to know. and yet he continues to “talk” a good game.
we are so close to REAL CHANGE, not just empty words. Pennsylvania PLEASE DO THE RIGHT THING!! and super delegates – do what you were created to do (long before this campaign) make the BEST choice for the country and for the democratic party – VOTE for Hillary!!

Why does it have to be so personal? Why would someone have no respect for me because I support Obama? I’ve served my country overseas, I think I’ve earned the right to make my own choice. I support Obama because I think he has a better chance to beat McCain, and I think he is more likely to change the political tone of Washington. If Hillary wins the nomination, I will vote for her- I think she’s a strong candidate. But I think Obama is stronger.
I don’t think any less of Hillary supporters, so why would some of them think less of me?

carmen zayas ;
That was a wonderful post.
Thank you.
GIVE ‘EM HELL, HILLARY!!!!!

Linda,fl
Not to worry; you’ve been disenfranchised by your buddy.
No vote for you!
Ta Ta…..

So, when one wonders why a Clinton supporter would think so little of their democratic ideals and principals (think Big Picture, like say, the Supreme freaking Court, for eg.), that they would rather cast a vote for the Republican — the pro-life Republican who has pledged to put strict Constructionist judges on the Supreme Court — than for the other Democratic Candidate, the answer is quite simple:
Why, of course, it’s because Hillary Clinton endorsed John McCain. She endorsed John McCain OVER Barack Obama.
And she’s told her supporters that over and over again in so many ways. She’s given them PERMISSION to think and do the unthinkable: vote *against* a fellow democrat if the democrat YOU want, doesn’t win the Democratic primary.
Remember? When she said she’d and her “distinguished friend” John McCain had crossed the threshold to become “commander-in-chief” but “you’d have to ask Barack Obama with respect to his candidacy”?
That’s right. There she was standing up there in her press conference in DC on March 6/08 surrounded by flags and Generals, saying that Obama would have to speak for himself as to whether he’s passed that threshold, all the while as she stood up there as the Official SPOKESPERSON — for HERSELF — and — JOHN McCAIN.
As a woman and a feminist, she has become a massive disappointment to me. I’m for the best person. Not the best (enter qualifier here). I’m for the person who conquers the divide. Not for the person who divides and conquers.

Elle,
you might want to remember that approximately 20% of the bho supporters said they would vote for McCain if hillary was the nominee…goes both ways my dear.

The media keeps repeating all the supers who moved ot BO after Feb5. I am curious to know how many moved to support BO after Mar4 and still how many pledged for BO after Dean, Reid and Pelosi talked about ‘the something’ in place to resolve the competition. All of the Wright stories broke after Mar 4 and that to me is a difference like night and day!

Hopefuly the Socialist/Lib party will be no more!

Hehehehehe… keep hating each other, Dems! It’s just what us Republicans want! I can’t believe we actually have a shot at winning- only the Democrats could ruin THIS chance they have!

If Clinton thinks it’s so bad to “disenfranchise” the voters of Florida and Michigan, why is she trying to get the pledged delegates to disenfranchise the voters they are pledged to represent?
Why even vote if someone is not going to faithfully represent your vote and the tens of thousands of other voters who assumed they would be represented by the pledged delegate?

JP said the following (and I cannot agree more):
If Clinton thinks it’s so bad to “disenfranchise” the voters of Florida and Michigan, why is she trying to get the pledged delegates to disenfranchise the voters they are pledged to represent?
Why even vote if someone is not going to faithfully represent your vote and the tens of thousands of other voters who assumed they would be represented by the pledged delegate?
Well said JP!!!!!

So, the tanks of ’68 returning?