Clinton Camp: Seat All Delegates With Full Votes

The party will never be brought together after the things that have happened. Especially the band of hate spewing fools BO calls his spiritual advisors! As in spreading the spirit of hate!

Hillary is being a spoiled brat. She is destroying our party because of her huge, unsatisfied ego.
So much for her losing gracefully. She’s going to be a screaming, crying baby out it.

Is Hillary looking for another “Reject and Denounce”…. geeze the man already made a statement saying that those were not his own views and that they fueled a backwards rhetoric and that he was very disappointed. Damn, Hillary… get out of the race and HELP OUT!!!!!! The Democratic party needs her help to win… not her complaining about delegates that she herself agreed shouldn’t be seated.

In my eye, Barack Obama has bent over backwards trying to sympathize with Hillary, offering praise and admiration throughout this campaign, and has avoided direct attacks on Hillary.
For her campaign managers to show disappointment for Barack not to come to the aid of the damsel-in-distress yet again hardly presents an image of her as a strong, self-sustaining leader.
Does the Clinton campaign really need Barack to defend her? Is she unable to fend her own political jabs?

We all realize this guy is a jerk.
What I don’t get is Barack Obama’s congregation. Why do we see them behind these jerks, clapping and cheering this crap spewing from their own pulpit?
Why aren’t they lining up to walk out the door instead? Would Barack Obama allow his daughters to hear this disgusting personal attack, or would he walk them out the door immediately?
I’ve never heard a Christian sermon where the paster directs ridicule at another human being.
Beyond that, she’s also a sitting US Senator and former First Lady of America. Has he no respect for our elected officials and their families?
It seems like these people really do hate America and white people.
Can someone from the black community please help me understand why I would ever want to be in the same Party with “Christians” like these, who are members of the same church as Obama?
Sorry, maybe I am a racist, but these “Christians” disgust me.

Alfred take those rose colored glasses off!! He only try to praise her when he saw that slamming her was upsetting the women folk!

Clinton campaign communications director Howard Wolfson, after receiving numerous different variations of the question, said, “You and others can ask this question in many different ways, but the answer is going to be the same. We are hopeful and expectant that the committee in its wisdom is going to do the right thing.”
The “right thing”? Yeah Wolfson has finally wanted to do the right thing…
Wolfson wants OBAMA!
…because the right thing wouldn’t be a full seating of an election where there was only one candidate. These people are a joke…and the embodiment of everything wrong with American politics…with America for that matter…get them out.

I think the DNC should punish Hillary for using this and the voters of Michigan anf Florida in the way they have. They have made their potential votes nuclear because they were based on a population that was the same as every other state where Obama didn’t come and meet them…where they initially had the same numbers but as soon as obama came…he almost always beat her…and in every state they went from voting for the woman they knew as first lady for 15 years to either tying or voting for Obama…. but that was only after they met the caniddates…the numbers don’t lie. These states really shouldn’t be considered since there is a distinct difference between states where they actually had them come and meet the candidates and these beauty contests.
Hillary should be tacked back from other states for screwing with the importance of the people’s voices… she embodies what Scott McLellan says has infected Washington and the White house for the past 15 years… since she was in the white house the first time.
It’s all about her and not the country or the voters.
Divisive, divisive, divisive …all in the name of power.

All delegates will be seated. And if not, HRC will win the nomination in Denver.
It is clear that Obama is unelectable, the DNC just has to figure out how to rule that she wins on a “technicality” so they don’t lose face with the Obama camp.
Watch and learn.
All the vitriol from Obama’s camp won’t change what everyone knows — he is weak and unelectable. Period.

stack
it wasn’t Obama that was the cry baby…remember.
and I think it is Hillary that is whining now…you know not when it mattered for the voters…but now when it matters to her.
but then again she has never been one to put anything ahead of herself has she.
Name me once she took a hit for anything… you can’t. Everything she has ever done is tactical…including her team planning how the delegates would be counted…only problem it didn’t work out like they planned.
She is a bad caniddate at this point… she might be good at winning stuff (but even here in her element the one demographic that was supposed to be her strong suit…she lost)
and she plays gross politics…
and cries about it when she is losing.
Funny that darfur, the soldiers, the kids starving, her daughter speaking…
nothing makes her cry…but then when she herself is losing…she cries.
She isn’t the “mama” as you like to portray.

Why dont Hillary camp understand that there has been a problem, thats why we are looking for a solution.
Seating all delegates in full it means they are pretending nothing occurred, and tend to have a blind eye.
You do not hear any other states complaining, because they abide with the rules.
I think the whole world is laughing on this!

Even if the phony gets enough superdelegates to push him ahead now, these “superdelegates” can change their minds over night.
Nobody is nominated until the vote calls in the convention and the number exceeds half of the people in the hall.
Nothing gives the phony hypocrite the self-proclaimed presumptive nomination, as long as there is another candidate in the race.

you people are funny and sad…
Obama is overwhelmingly favored to win the presidency when you look at REAL numbers…
it’s 1.5 to 1 that a dem will beat the republican this year…
and if you look at the turn out in primaries and the fact that we haven’t fought on issues (the issues that are killing us right now and obama wins hands down on) this will probably be a blow out.
but you all keep saying otherwise.
and by the way the defectors numbers that Obama is showing with Hillary people…is similar to Bill clinton’s in 92
but you all keep feeling better about your spite and losing by saying otherwise… atleast I if not all Obama supporters understand how people make themselves feel better when they have lost.
an overturn would be whacked and crazy…it’s not going to happen but again keep telling yourselves we will go to Mars tomorrow too.

For those of you that haven’t been paying attention. At a press conference in Dover, New Hampshire last August 9, the New Hampshire Secretary of State indicated he was going to schedule his state’s primary before the date specified in the DNC rule, clearly defying the sequence and timing the Rules and Bylaws Committee had set. Michigan Democratic leaders wrote to Governor Dean asking if the DNC intended to enforce the rule against New Hampshire, but the DNC refused to act or even to answer our letters for months.
The Democratic National Committee then proceeded to selectively enforce its calendar rule. On December 3, the Rules and Bylaws Committee voted to give New Hampshire a waiver to move from third to second place in the sequence. Michigan requested a waiver and was denied. When the Rules and Bylaws Committee itself decided not to follow its own newly adopted, hard-fought for rules and granted a waiver to New Hampshire, it set the stage for the present situation.

I can’t believe Obama’s people are letting this woman dare suggest that he gets ZERO delegates from Michigan. How can they let her make this argument and her DISHONEST popular vote argument? How? Obama, wake up and fight.

Obama needs help from Hillary much more than the other way!!!

If your name is not on the ballot, you get zero votes, plus the write-ins.

rockthebleachers
did you not see Terry McAuliffe’s much publicized conversation with Michigan..why would things change ?
Dean told everyone a year and a half ago what the rules were. Hillary’s campaign team is made up of the three most prominent influences on those rules and were involved in the process…not to mention because Hillary was seen as the most likely nominee overwhelmingly she had more knowledge of these than anyone.
NEVER did she object. Until it hurt her.
The rules and by-laws committee is politically and ethically bound to cut the delegates in ahlf…not to mention their lawyers have said legally.
Michigan screwed up and hopefully their voters are going to take them to task in the future.
No one needed

obama and edwards took their names off the ballots in mi they were following the rules unlike hillary who doesnt know what a rule is liked a spoiled 2 year old hillary you are a disgrace to all woman children men black white old young poor or rich you are not the person fit to run this country and i pray the day never comes that you do!!!!

Wikipedia (as of 5/29) shows Obama has 1984 Total Delegates, to Clinton’s 1781 Total delegates.
Lets assume the DNC seats 100% of the Florida and Michigan delegates. In Michigan, Clinton won about 56% of the vote, of which there are 128 pledge delegates. Obama wasn’t on the ballot. From Michigan, Clinton picks up 72 delegates, Obama none (assuming the uncommitted are not given to Obama).
In Florida, there are 185 pledge delegates. Clinton took 49.7%, Obama took 33%. Clinton would pick up 92 delegates, Obama 61.
Further, lets assume Clinton wins both South Dakota and Montana by, say, 60%. She would get 9 delegates from SD, 10 from MT. Obama would get, say, 6 from SD, and 6 from MT.
Further, lets assume Clinton gets 100% of the Puerto Rico delegates, all 55 of them.
Clinton would still be 38 delegates short of Obama. If we let the people’s vote count, and the Super Delegates honestly vote according to the popular vote, then one would expect the uncommitted super delegates to be split 50/50.
Clinton is still short. And it is very unlikely that the decision will be as lopsided toward Clinton as I’ve outlined above.
Even the Nevada bookies are giving 8:1 odds on Clinton, and 1:5 odds on Obama. And those guys are really good at predicting the outcome of races.

stack…this withdrawal of names was a “suggestion” by the DNC to punish MI. Hillary did play and has NEVERR palyed by the rules( unless it helps her).

Tom your right because Hillary isn’t going to be the nominee….
but if Hillary pushes this …she will lose her senate seat…her chances at ever being near congress again…and her influence…and Bill’s for that matter and history will make them out to be a little bit more of a villain and a screw-up…
someone who may have broke ground as the first serious contender for Pres…but then hurt those same issues by using sexism accusations and putting her own candidacy over the need for the country and the supreme court justice choices to be made by a President who had those issues in women and minorities and the poor’s best interest.
Hillary will probably at this point have jeopardized her senate seat (her ceiling was low and her floor was high anywayand now she has ###### off half the people who voted for her)
Ethics matter.

jackt51 -
Your political Jesus, asks the MI voters to not vote for his opponents and to vote for uncommitted. It fits into your phony hypocrite’s rules.
He then devised a scheme to air commercials to get votes in Florida. It also fits into the hypocrite’s rules.
Sure, you can lose too, in November.
We’ll make sure of it.

      “If so, why your political Jesus, the phony hypocrite,
      did not remove his name also in FL? Then, he is violating
      rules.”
      stack | May 30, 2008 3:19:06 PM
Let’s get one thing straight right off the git.
If the election were to be held today, I’d not vote for Obama.  I never select a candidate based on the primaries.  The candidates have to run to please their outside wings.  I don’t pick a candidate to support until the general election begins and they can sort of move back to the middle if they’re going to do that.
I figure what they say during the general election campaign is more likely to be true than what they say in the primary election campaign.  (Doesn’t mean they’ll tell me the truth then either, but odds are better.)
And, I don’t know enough about where Obama’s gonna go with his campaign during the general that I’m comfortable with the idea of giving him my vote.  I’ll give him a fair hearing, but that’s all I’m going to promise.
Next thing:  Florida didn’t allow the candidates to remove their names once they’d qualified for the ballot.  Once they were on, they were on; done deal.
There was that “where possible” thing that I mentioned before.

The Obama campaign has been very economical with criticism or harsh words against Hillary Clinton despite her massive amounts of baggage. Can you imagine how Clinton would look if Barack opened up her can of worms and attacked her? You think she’s crying now? Holy Cow! Instead they kept their cool.
Then it started to make sense.
Obama was setting the tone for the discussion. Hillary’s game would not be played in the dark – with the punch / counter-punch of the political dinosaurs. Imagine Hillary with a Giant megaphone but not having batteries for it.
Axelrod and other Obama leadership share a singular temperament. They have proved to be effective, sharp witted, thoughtful and focused. Clearly superior in every category comparable to Clinton
McCain hasn’t seen anything yet – wait until the first debate. McCain can barely ask for directions, not less succeed in a debate that requires mastery of facts. Have you listened to one of his speeches ?
BLOWOUT!

truthtell -
It shows who is really smart in dealing with real issues.
Why the political Jesus did not foresee that, rather he plagiarized the phrase “Revolution We Can Believe In” from Chairman Mao.

Laura (May 30, 2008 2:39:21 PM) Even though Clinton did not mean any harm to Obama with her comments, it seems how contradictory she is. It was not Obama who mocked her, but someone who had endorsed him. It seems that Obama was quick to denounce the words. However, Clinton made a vague apology and is still clueless.

–waffle…then I guess…to be fair Pfleger didn’t mean what he said also?–
Hillary didn’t mean what YOU want her to mean.
The pastor was explicit. No interpretation, nor misinterpretation necessary.
–She could have referenced many other people who withdrew for one reason or another( Mitchell from Maine) but she HAD to say assasination. She meant it…….–
She meant to reference it in order to show that June can mean so much, that things can change and that change can affect her campaign. She didn’t appeal to assassination to rid herself of opponents.

dl:
but if Hillary pushes this …she will lose her senate seat…
=======================================
What Hillary is doing is hardly unprecedented. I recommend reading up on the 1980 primaries.
The two leading contenders in the 1980 primary were Pres. Carter and one Sen. Edward Kennedy, known today, among other things, for being Obama’s political mentor – during Obama’s career in the Senate from January, 2005 – Present.
Although Kennedy had far fewer delegates relative to Carter than Clinton does to Obama, he pressed his claim to the nomination all the way to the convention floor. There, he begged, twisted arms, wrought havoc – and only conceded to Carter on the day before the last day of the convention!
After losing this primary, Kennedy returned to the Senate, and has enjoyed a long and illustrious career. ;-)

There are “uncommitted” delegates. meaning they do not vote until the seond ballot when pledged delegates are free to switch. Obama won zero pledged delegates in Michigan.

agbi -
Absolutely true, and completely agreed.
Only had Bho not framed Joe Biden as a racist, we would have an alternative and he would have been an excellent pres.

What Pfleger said was sooooooo funny!
And quit true.
When the bully gets picked on accurately, the game changes, doesn’t it?
So true, even a white priest can say it.

Nat…I know…that was totally good and totally true!!! Exactly why we are where we are today. “Should have been mine!”

^^Obama…followed the rules and wihtdrew…^^
He chose. He has the Right to choose. She gets Michigan.
LET ALL THE VOTES BE COUNTED! Why should the voter be punished by nullifying the vote of those who have nothing to do with this except voicing their views at the polling place?
Should the voter suffer for the “crimes” of the Party and the candidates? NO! COUNT’EM ALL!

      “Then, why did he carefully devised a scheme to air
      commercials in FL to ask for voting him?”
      stack | May 30, 2008 3:39:08 PM
You say that as if it were true.  I don’t believe it is.

The stupidity, ignorance, divisiveness, and arrogance demonstrated by Obama supporters in all the blogs make me not want to be part of it at all. I will vote against you guys in the GE if Obama is on the top of the ticket.
I am a Clinton supporter and I approve this message.

Clinton: Ignore the need to re-created democracy by having small states first. Clinton, demagogue of women. How will she campaign, when another woman is the VP candidate? She is digging herself deeper and deeper, further from VP every second now.

All the rules were broken by everyone ….States canidates….EVERYONE…

NH. Your generalization indicates lack of reasoning power on your part. There are immense differences.

george
look at history
candidates’ supporters consistently say that in the primaries but the reality is…it never seems to effect the GE
Hillary supporters anger is nothing knew…it’s the length of this primary that may change that and she knows that…
and she doesn’t care…it’s about her not the issues.

MICH DOESNT COUNT. They were in charge of the process and they violated the rules, themselves.
Florida should count. They were pushed around by the Republicans.

      “There are ‘uncommitted’ delegates. meaning they do
      not vote until the seond ballot…”
      geevill | May 30, 2008 3:41:41 PM
No.
(Where do you get this stuff?)

its over stack, suck it up and go home…

^^MICH DOESNT COUNT. They were in charge of the process and they violated the rules, themselves.^^
Did the voters violate the rules??? All they did was to vote!
^^Florida should count. They were pushed around by the Republicans. ^^
George Bush did it, huh?

Paula. In a fair election I have no problem with all of the votes being counted. The fact is neither MI or FL were fair elections and therefore are not valid.

      “But fact is fact. He had a lame excuse, not knowing
      ‘nation-wide’ commercials would be aired in Florida.
      stack | May 30, 2008 3:53:10 PM
Your “fact” is wrong.  You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.
Obama sought and received permission from the DNC to run a cable TV advertisement to get to some of the electorate in, I think it was, Georgia.  The ad did run on cable in Florida too; same cable company.  This was pre-approved by the DNC as I recall it.  He was playing by the rules, even got a ruling first.

dl,
We all know Obama is a ultra liberal democrat by this point. I will not vote for him by issues either.

so you hillary supporters taht say and or attribute this to obama, or that obama is being divisive…
do you not see that in the last several weeks hillarys camp has not said obamas name but has been divisive in almost every speech and every press release?
obama has only brought up praise for her and her campaign
and she continues to say stuff like, im the better candidate, i want to count all the votes, i am al gore in 2000 election, and he is bush, and the race has been sexist and not racist and on and on and on
i mean… does any of this get to you guys?
do you see her language as divisive or helpful given that she has lost the nomination?
I wish there was a poll about this because i want to know if people see her words as divisive to the party or if people actually think she is trying for unity of the party…
i feel very strongly that it seems very very divisive to me.. but perhaps im just too close to the scene of the crime…

Well the DNC should only listen to the Clinton delegation if they want to win in Nov.
Anything less than seating 100% of the delegations chosen by the democratic vote of 2.3 million Americans is political suicide.
The Dems can’t win without Florida and Michigan and they will lose Florida and Michigan guarenteed if they aren’t seated or their elections are arbitrarily overturned.

–Two States Broke the Rules …
No Votes should count….–
Did the voter understand this when he cast his ballot?

^^”Our nation must come together to unite.”
George W. Bush ^^
Ok. That sounds nice. Who will be first to step forward for the coming together? I say that the Democrats should take the first step.

Lee C. ― U.S.A.
Yup. Look who is pushing superdelegates for him! The DNC’s Chairman, the DNC convention’s Chairwoman, the Majority Leader of the DNC’s party are all for him for whatever he needs, or airs, including the Wright side.

george
Hillary and Obama only differ on the war (does that make him ultra left liberal more than Hillary) and healthcare…where she promises a universal system that can’t pass and can’t work… and he focuses on cost…
yeah that makes him more liberal.
the statement that he si so ultra liberal compared to CLINTON…is crazy.
but it probably makes you feel better to say.

dl:
Clinton’s future Senate career?
From your posts, you sound like a resident of New York, so I’ll defer to your local insight. I’m from Michigan – I really have no clue as to the depth of support for Clinton in New York.
I’m sure you are right – Kennedy’s illustrious career AFTER he shredded the Democratic Convention in 1980 is not a good example. In Massachussetts, a Kennedy does have a very high ceiling.
Still, outside of New York, some of us Democrats – who WILL vote for Obama come November, by the way – still retain enormous respect for Hillary Clinton.
We think, at least I think, she has every right to carry her claim as far as she can. And we respect her for doing so.;-)
The mess of this primary process is, after all, NOT HER FAULT.

s.b….we have rules for a reason..to follow. If Hillary didn’t like them she should have said “no” when she signed the agreement. Under your way, the states can do whatever they want, whenever they want…sounds like a free for all…

Do you think we have problems in our society/country because we tend to reward negative behavior?
Cheating and lying have become acceptable….so what is punishment?

      “Yup. Look who is pushing superdelegates for him! The
      DNC’s Chairman, the DNC convention’s Chairwoman, the
      Majority Leader of the DNC’s party are all for him for
      whatever he needs, or airs, including the Wright side.”
      stack | May 30, 2008 4:04:21 PM
Not my problem.  I’ll cast my vote depending on MY reading of the candidates.  Simple fact is was playing by the rules, up front and public about it.

faisal…people don’t choose their names…their parents do….

fact checker
there are two factors that stand out for dems losing
long primaries and when the party picks the “in house” canidate and not the new exciting candidate who has the right message…
When we choose the right candidate rather than the “loyalist” candidate…we win.
In this year the numbers do show we should win if it wasn’t for this divisive primary… 1.5 to 1 (those numbers have been done by two networks now)
It is only the wear of this long primary that has set in motion negatives going higher and higher just as they did in past primaries that were drawn out.
I won’t post numbers that long on here but go look it up yourself… you will see even if you don’t want to admit it…long primaries don’t help.
It’s like the guys who say the statistics don’t prove global warming so we should stay on course as we are… guess what if you touch something and you get burned twice and have never NOT gotten burned… you should probably think long and hard if it is important enough to touch that again…and if the burn is worth your need to touch it.

If I were a Democrat, Thank God I’m not, I would be behind Hilary on this. Obama’s consistent problems of being surrounded by unAmerican bigoted racist people, including his wife, only to claim they don’t represent him shows that he is unelectable in a general Election. So since I am not a Democrat, Go Barak Obama 2008!!!!He will lose all 57 states he visited this year so far, thats according to HIS math, not mine.

Mr. Incredible (May 30, 2008 2:54:47 PM) Please let the world know how Florida and Michigan should be punished for breaking the rules. I and many other people who respect following rules would like to know.
It has become tiring hearing people’s illogical argument about Florida and Michigan. The Clinton Camp’s argument is one reason that people like me that has dismissed her of presidential material. At one point the dream-ticket would have been great, but that time has long gone.
Ms. Clinton has tired to equate many civil rights fights, and other inequalities to the need to sanction Florida and Michigan. It just does not fit in a society ruled by law. From the date that the two states made it known when they would hold their primaries there has been a threat of sanctions. Ms. Clinton nor her camp have evoked any idea of injustice after the two states held their primaries, and had all their delegates stripped. Yes, it was a pretty harsh decision, however the dynamics of this primary is quite different know.
Some form of sanction has to be given to Florida and Michigan for breaking the rules. Seating all the delegates with full votes, is an absolute insult to the other 48 states and the other jurisdictions who actually followed the rules. If the argument by the Clinton camp is hard ball tactics, it has failed, because it makes the Clintons look like ‘spoiled brats.’ The Clinton camp position is more about trying to secure the democratic nomination, and not about what is fair. If the NDC does not sanction Florida and Michigan, then in 2012 other states will follow also break the rules.
Clinton camp’s suggestion is selfish. At the begging of this campaign I was happy to be alive to see this history event. The first woman presidential candidate. After the first few primaries, I was really happy. Not only was their a change that America would have its first woman presidential candidate, but also (even remotely) the first Africa-American presidential candidate. At this time no one really cared about Florida and Michigan, and many viewed that it would only be a ‘footnote.’
What happened next was watching the Clinton camp start losing, to someone who should be running in 2012/2016. Clinton and her camp starting blaming everyone, except for themselves. They start to view that she was a victim of sexism even though she won some campaigns at 58/65/67 percent. Hillary and Bill Clinton have lost their minds, and one hopes that they leave gracefully.

^^It has become tiring hearing people’s illogical argument about Florida and Michigan. ^^
The voters whose votes are being trashed are also tired of hearing that they mean nothing to the Democrat Party.

I’m amazed at how some of you are so quick to label our citizens as unamerican.
I am totally disgusted with this country right now, but does that mean I am unamerican? No.
There ARE white people I don’t like….but then that also applies to people I know of all races. Does that make me bigoted? racist?
It was 57 contests to all you contortionists….can’t seem to get that one straight, eh?!

Last time i checked U.S has 50
states NOT 48…………….
All states must be seated in Denver.
The whole process nominating a
candidate is very un-democratic.
DNC and superdelegates DO NOT have
any business to endorse any candidate
before the convention.
DNC and party leaders are useless.
They DO NOT understand,
“THE ELECTABILITY ISSUE”

I say lets start all over, revotes in every state, every person vote, all dems, all liberals, all socialist, etc. lets do it next week… It will be the only way to get rid of this woman whom is an embarrassment to us all.

Anybody wanna answer: Why should the voter in MI and FLA lose the power of his vote just cuz the Party goofed? How was the voter involved in the goof? Why are Libzis still blaming the victim for the “crime”?

The fact that anyone in this wonderful country votes for Obama after all that has been revealed about him is absolutely amazing to me. How can you listen to the sermons at his church of 20 years and believe that he is a credible candidate is unreal. He should be kicked out of this campaign and kicked out of the Senate.
He believes the ideas of this church or he wouldn’t have stayed for 20 years. Would you keep going to a church or organization if you didn’t believe at least most of the ideas and thoughts that were being expressed. It has been said over and over, Obama will not win in November. The Democrats have blown a wonderful opportunity to be in the White House once again.

^^the democrats have mucked this up something awful. ^^
That and the 14% Congress make one wonder how well they can run the country in these times. They can’t.

fact checker….then why didn’t she apoligize to Obama as well. She obviously must have seen the implications. She isn’t stupid, or is she?

I also heard an interesting statistic today from one of the political reporters on CNN (He also contributes to the Lou Dobb program). He stated that there were 29 states that had joint Rep./Dem. primaries; Of those 29, He said all but 5 states had overwhelming majorities of Democratic voters over Republican voters;
The exceptions were AZ(McCain’s home state), Utah(benefit Romney) and AL (high evangelical vote for Huckabee) and then there was MI and FL that had no such focus; His interpretation was there was a significant shortage of Democratic voters coming to the polls because of their understanding based on ALL information that the Dem Primary was invalid. I have seen posts where renters
stated that the property tax prop that was the big draw for many home owners(Dem and Rep) was not an issue sufficient to draw them to vote in a primary they understood would not count.
So it seems that taking the invalid primary votes as a mandate would be indeed “disenfranchising” many more voters than it would “enfranchise” and does not pass the “intention of the voter” test so often stated. Clearly, a compromise that reinstates 50% of the pledged delegates with some compromise re: the apportionment is reasonable to permit the pledged delegates and non-elected official supers to be included st the convention. (many of
the pledged delegates and non-elected official supers are everyday people;
= More representation of the MI and FL voters.

If I were a voter in MI,or FLA, and I voted in the primary, I wouldn’t want my vote to mean that half of it goes one way and the other half another. If I had voted in them, I meant my vote one way, or the other, and it should count.

^^I have no idea how Howard Dean came up with the idea to strip ALL the delegates from Michigan and Florida. ^^
It’s the same brain that produced that scream.

NH voter…it is a well know fact, if she has taken the time to learn the caucuses, she could have one. Again, she felt she has it wrapped up..

newera:
She apologized – to the Kennedy family for any offense she may have caused by reminding them of a traumatic event in their family’s past.
What’s good enough for the Kennedy’s isn’t good enough for you?
She did not apologize to Obama, and Obama did not ask for an apology – publicly said he did not expect an apology – because it was clear she was talking about the primary timeline, and nothing else. She certainly did not have Obama in mind.
What is it you know that Obama missed?

Fact check..Obama was being a gentleman, as usual. But he knew what she was infering, everyone did…

My decision to vote Rep. in the general election is in protest of being punished by the DNC for something my legislators should be punished for & until this is fixed by the DNC it can happen again in your state as well.
The DNC needs to find a way to punish the right people and not the voters! What state(s) will be next when legislators decide they don’t like that their state is changing color and jump the date just to get your votes nulled by the DNC knowing they will come down even harder next time it happens! Hopefully it won’t be your votes!

gene_fl…the voters were stupid enough to vote these guys in weren’t they? Take credit where it is due.

Jozy…I guess you said it all…

Mr. Incredible (May 30, 2008 4:18:43 PM)
“The voters whose votes are being trashed are also tired of hearing that they mean nothing to the Democrat Party.”
As stated about that is a tiring argument. This is the same illogical argument that Clinton camp is trying to push.
First of all the Democratic party will find a resolution that should seat the delegates from the two states, giving them around half of their voting power. If the Democrats in those states feel slighted, they should direct their anger toward their respected state officials and implore on them to quickly resolve this with the DNC.
Second, the decision even though harsh was known before the Democrats in both states voted. This was known to everyone involved and those that followed the news about Florida’s and Michigan’s decision on when to hold their primaries.
Finally, this is the Democratic primary where Democrats decide on who they believe is the best nominee for the Democratic presidential candidate. In some states those allowed to vote in that states primary may include Republicans and independents.
People need to stick to the facts.

newera:
Everyone knew?
It didn’t occur to me until the Obama campaign loudly, publicly, and repeatedly pointed it out.
Not everyone knew. It was an innocent remark.
Obama’s supporters who continue to bring it up make their candidate look like a most stupendously unscrupulous candidate.

I have decided the democratic party is lead by a bunch of idiots. Do they realize what great opportunity is slipping through their grasp? They have all these on-the-fence former republican/now independent voters who were once leaning to the left to vote and now because of this Hillary mess they’re leaning back to the right. I know because I’m one of them and I’m just disgusted with the Clinton campaign tactics. You guys can say anything you want about Rove but Hillary and her bunch aren’t too far behind!!!

Oy Vey! (not the name of a poster, just how I feel).
Let’s bring up the RFK remark again. Hasn’t this trope played itself out?
How about “Sweetie” and “Auschwitz”, if you feel you must stir up that tired back-and-forth.

Saying Clinton is “unscrupulous” doesn’t make it so.
Personally, I think she is just making the strongest argument she can for her nomination in a process that has FAILED to deliver a clear winner.

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that the majority of “opinions” voiced in these posts are based on sound bites and perceptions put out in the media, for years. If everyone were to stop and really think, we would realize that neither candidate did or meant MOST of what’s been attributed to them. That includes motives. This is the first time that the Dems have had 2 great candidates. I for one feel that Hillary is the best and most qualified and she has every right to stay in this race. We all knew that MI and FL were going to be an issue, no matter who was in the lead at the end. I worry that the Obama groundswell before super Tuesday does not reflect actual decision making by the masses, but a huge rock star popularity contest. He’s motivating and impressive. And….? She did not feel “entitled”, and is not the vile person some of you vile people represent. I have felt more divisive rumblings from the Obama camp, both overt and covert. Sleaziness whether you admit it or not. I’m saddened by how we elect the POTUS, terrible process and easily corrupted by both the parties and the media.

Let’s state this a differnet way:
If a teacher goes against school policy, you don’t punish all the students for what the teacher did, you punish the teacher! Why are the voters being punished for what the legislators did by moving the date!

^^If a teacher goes against school policy, you don’t punish all the students for what the teacher did, you punish the teacher! Why are the voters being punished for what the legislators did by moving the date! ^^
Absolutely! The voters just followed the rules and made their voice known the American way.
If their votes are thrown out, the North Koreans and the Cubans will be happy.
Cuban exiles migrated to FLA to excape this kind of foolishness only to find that the same thing is happening here!
Let the Democrat Party relocate to Pyongyang, or Havana, where their efforts are more appreciated.

ickes is a scum–he wrote the rules-agreed with the rules and now he want’s to change the rules–the rules are the rules period–voters elect representatives if voters have a problem with something it is the voters job to call the representative or collectively voters can protest–this is representative democracy–by remaining silent the voters in fl and mi agreed with the ruling–they have to take the responsibility!!! rules are rules-if we brake the rules then we risk losing our freedom!!!

^^Who’s punished?? The voter who had nothing to do with scheduling??^^
Is the voter to be punished merely for showing up????

If I was able to vote on the correct date I would have (but the polling place would be closed). I voted on the only day I was allowed to vote!

shelleyt
I’m saddened by how we elect the POTUS, terrible process and easily corrupted by both the parties and the media.
=======================================
Your are saddened by this terrible process? The process that saddens you is called the democratic process – you would prefer another way? Maybe a coronation?
Personally, I could not be more delighted by the process! And I am a Michigan voter who has been disenfranchised by that process. Still, in my 30 years of following politics, I have never seen citizens more directly involved. I think this process, whatever the outcome, should be viewed as a triumph. :-)

^^I think the American people should demand that the Electoral College be abolished and simplify the process to one voter, one vote.^^
Sooo, you also want Senate representation to change, too.
The change you want would effectively take the smaller population states outta the pix. So, you don’t want their votes to count, either, huh?

Eliminating the Electoral College would punish states with smaller populations.
Those who want this change don’t realize that each state already has a popular vote and that that popular vote determines the Electoral College vote.

Fact Checker: Of course I am as delighted as you that more people are involved in the process! And I believe in our democracy, no matter what your snide comment about a coronation meant. But I also can see that the status quo is flawed, the process is too complicated and easily manipulated. The chips will fall where they may, but we have the responsibility to ensure that we have elections that truly represent our votes and wishes. The delegates were originally created to vote on behalf of large groups of people that could not get to the polls. The delegates were mandated to cast the vote according to the group of voters they were representing. This is not necessarily happening now. Now we have large groups of delegates that are able to vote according to what they feel is in our best interest. I for one do not want delegates making that decision for me, rather that they should have to vote according to the way the constituents have voted.

–Even if Clinton gets everything she “demands” she will still lose.–
Maybe, and maybe not. Let’s see what the convention does.

Let’s ask the voter in Michigan and the voter in Florida — notwithstanding that the Florida voter, in 2000, couldn’t read the ballot — whether they think their vote oughta be counted. That they voted oughta be a tipoff that they intended that their vote counts, but let’s ask them, just to put this to rest.

I believe that Michigan voters and Florida voters will say that they want their votes NOT to count, that they had nothing else to do anyway on the day of voting.

Of course I don’t want the smaller states to have less of a say or Senate representation. But why do we not require the delegates and superdelegates to actually represent the voters? What I am saying is that the current process has become a huge mess, and as many people that have become newly interested, many have become frustrated and disillusioned as well. By the way, I live in a state that has less than one million people.

“Sorry, I honestly don’t get your point. Could you
clarify?”
Fact Checker | May 30, 2008 5:49:26 PM
“Anybody but Clinton” will, by default, be Obama. There will be no other nominees for the position; they’ve all dropped out, even Edwards. You don’t want that. That means Obama gets the 55 by default as the only other nominee who is not Clinton. You don’t want that. You need to find a way that this “fact” becomes something else.

Obama can not win the GE this last Priest did him in it is the rage all over today it is over for him even if he is the nominee.

Every one knows that Obama or Clinton can’t get the rigth amount of pledge del. so we are going to the convention because the supers can not vote until the convention . even if they come out they can not cast thier votes until AUG.

      “I’m am suggesting the MI delegates be seated as
      pledged. Uncommitted for uncommitted, etc.…”
      Fact Checker | May 30, 2008 6:13:45 P
Seating 55 “uncommitted” delegates for Michigan gives them the equivalence of an additional 55 “superdelegates” , on top of the 29 or so they already got, to be wooed and bribed or whatever gets their vote.  You ain’t never heard the screaming the other 49 states would put up over that once it sinks in to them what happened and that Michigan got a disproportionate INCREASE in her negotiating strength at the Convention by violating the schedule.
Ain’t gonna happen.

Well, Bishop, that is why we are hoping that Hill will recognize reality and concede, throwing her herculean efforts into the General Election battle to defeat McBush!
Wasting the next two months waiting for the Supers to cast their votes is pure silliness!
But, unfortunately, there’s been a lot of silliness in this primary season!
Obama 2008 — Yes, WE CAN!!!

Well here is the sad part having worked the polls for twenty years and gone to many call banks and campagin offices paid the most to a canidate and voted in every election every election keeping are party going us damm women are pissed so Washington we have a problem.And the democrat party has a real big problem.

Georgia–
McCain can’t stand Hillary either. he is manipulating her core voters to vote for him instead of Obama.
he comes to her defense and suddenly he is Hillary’s hero.
It says a lot about you that you are falling for it.

The supers don’t vote until the convention . And they know that .He has to have enough pl.del. and he can’t get them because if they seat MI and FL. the number goes up that is needed .

      “If Obama can get enough superdelegates
      before the convention to clinch the nomination
      than MI votes won’t count anyway.”
      Fact Checker | May 30, 2008 7:15:07 PM
And I still maintain that the other 49 states will never sit still for Michigan adding those 55 delegates to the “superdelegate” tally that Clinton and Obama have to pull from before that first vote when they ALL go up for grabs.  The screaming will not stop within the next four years.

Lee C. ― U.S.A.
And I still maintain that the other 49 states will never sit still for Michigan adding those 55 delegates to the “superdelegate” tally that Clinton and Obama have to pull from before that first vote when they ALL go up for grabs. The screaming will not stop within the next four years.
=====================================
You seem to have hit on a key defect in any argument for seating MI delegates as voted.
MI’s primary always was the most flawed.
Still, why not fully seat the FL delegation?
The playing field was pretty equal there, both candidates on the ballot, and it wasn’t even the State Democrats who moved up the election.

Obama took the lead in delegates, chosen by the people actually voting, in Iowa on January 3, 2008 by 27 to 14. When all final votes were counted for every single valid and legal election day since then, he has never, ever been behind in pledged delegates. Mrs. Clinton only appeared to be more competitive because she started out with a huge stock pile of party insider super delegates. If Mrs. Clinton were really the more electable choice of the people, don’t you think the people would have given her more delegates at least once at the end of the election day? She won some and he won some, but her end of day totals have never been competitive.

      “Still, why not fully seat the FL delegation?”
      Fact Checker | May 30, 2008 7:32:38 PM
Well, there is the principle of the thing, for whatever that’s worth.  No way Hillary would have had a 17 point margin in Florida if they’d campaigned there; not enough Appalachians in Florida. 
But, Obama really doesn’t care about Florida.  The + 38 delegates Hillary would pick up under het best case scenario don’t amount to squat given the margins extant.
The DNC probably does though.  Something about being able to maintain their authority for next time.

Paul,
I agree. Instead of making it easer for a woman to run, this has made us all look like a bunch of hysterical whiners.
Not impressive.

“It must be nice to live in a world where you rewrite the rules as your whim directs. It amazes me that so many would want to “count” an invalid and unrepresentative primary. Sounds like something Bush/Cheney would dream up; start with your conclusion and work backwards.”
Thank you, MIGuy. Everyone needs to climb off the high horse about counting all the votes, because even if this illegal primary IS counted, all the votes are still not counted. Hundreds of thousands of voters did not participate in the MI and FL primaries because they were told that their vote would not count. How is that representing the “voice of the people” when many didn’t get a say at all?

“Those who want this change don’t realize that each state already has a popular vote and that that popular vote determines the Electoral College vote.”
Sorry, but the popular vote of a state does NOT determine the EC vote. If it did, there would be no mention of the 4 Presidential elections in which candidates won the popular vote but lost by the EC vote. The EC is not bound by the outcome of the popular vote, PERIOD.

      “I’m the one wanting ALL the votes to count.
      THAT’s the American way.”
      Mr. Incredible | May 30, 2008 8:23:18 PM
Actually, it’s not.  Holding primaries as a means of selecting the parties’ candidate is a fairly recent phenomenon.

      “Why make voters suffer for the mistakes of
      somebody else?”
      Paula Abdrool | May 30, 2008 8:37:18 PM
Because those voters are the folks who elected the “somebody else”.  It’s called “representative government”.  The officials you elect screw up; you gotta pay for it.  (Although, in some cases, if ones political unit is powerful enough, one can make the foreigners pay for it.)

^^ “Why make voters suffer for the mistakes of
somebody else?”
Paula Abdrool | May 30, 2008 8:37:18 PM
Because those voters are the folks who elected the “somebody else”.^^
Irrelevant. That has nothing to do with their Right to vote and have their votes count.
^^The officials you elect screw up; you gotta pay for it.^^
Not when they schedcule an election and the voter shows up to vote according to the schedule. The voter is following the rules and should not be punished. The votger did nothing wrong.

^^You can win the popular vote across the nation but lose the EC vote cuz it all depends on the states you win. ^^
Pardon me for interjecting, Waffenator…
The EC is like the Senate — 2 senators from each state, regardless of the popular vote and regardless of the EC size of the state.
Those who want to get rid of the EC should also wanna get rid of the 2-senators-from-each-state system.

The vote by Michigan and Florida voters in the primaries is independent of the acts of their legislatures IN THAT the voters are not responsible for scheduling of the primaries. Had they gone to the polling place on the original date, they would have been precluded from voting, and their voteds would not have counted.
They went to the polling place on the date the legislatures scheduled and they voted, and, still, their votes don’t count.
They should make the Democrat Party pay this fall.

–And here I thought I’d put up fairly patiently with a fairly outrageous amount of foolishness before I finally tossed that one back.–
Paula, Fais’, Mr. I and I could say the same thing, and we are far better at it than than you are, and we can go there, if you continue.
So, if you wanna stop it where you started it, that’s fine.

Yeah, Paula, the signs are there of a mental breakdown in the Democrat Party.

So, were Libs correct in 2000 when they insisted that ALL votes be counted, or are they correct today when they insist that not all votes be counted?

      “Then what are you doing here? Why all the effort trying to persuade
      if you don’t care?”
      Mr. Incredible | May 30, 2008 9:11:05 PM
You may need to re-adjust your perspective here; I’m not trying to persuade YOU.  That don’t mean I’m not being persuasive.
      “Paula, Fais’, Mr. I and I…are far better at it than than
      you are, and we can go there, if you continue.
      Waffie | May 30, 2008 9:09:19 PM
Knock yourselves out.

Yup, Ramb’, the Democrats don’t want those votes counted cuz, even though they may not give Clinton what she needs to win by numbers, they’re afraid that she will have the momentum of what those numers would mean going into the convention.

      “Yeah, but it didn’t land.”
      Mr. Incredible | May 30, 2008 9:15:54 PM
It set you to squallin’, and it’s the hit dog that hollers as the saying goes.
But, this is getting tiresome quick enough.  Ya’ll got anything except personal shots?  I don’t much reckon that’s gonna keep the audience entertained, and I don’t much care ’bout it myself neither.
So…

So, will voters in Michigan and Florida ever get the feeling that they were heard in the election process?

Yes, Ramb’, they will. Next November when they punish the Democrats for ignoring them.

Hillary said after all the primaries they will have a better idea of who the nominee will be. I doubt this will go all the way to the convention.

Had the January and February primaries been held after the March revelations about Obama, Obama would not have won those primaries. I voted for Obama and regret that very much. If Obama gets the nomination, I will be voting for McCain. Believe me, I am not alone.

Get a Life,
You had my response, but somehow, it was deleted. Did someone not like my description of McCain as a real hero? A hero who defended Hillary because he knows and respects her, a hero who has some integrity and priniciples, and a hero who shows a great distinction between his character and the lack of it in Obama? Obama did not even apologize for the disgraceful diatribe from Obama’s spiritual advisor priest. The comparison of McCain’s reaction and the aloof canned response from Obama is a stark contrast. People can readily see that.
I do not “fall” for empty rhetoric. I look for substance in a candidate. Hillary is the best candidate, McCain is second, and Obama is green. Apparently, more voters agree with me. Let’s see how long this response post stays with you.

Fact Checker it would be important for you to check your facts. It is agreed that there is an importance in including Michigan and Florida in the process, even though they did break party rules after being warned by the DNC.
The important thing to remember this is a process for the selection of the Democratic presidential candidate in the 2008 general election. The people who are allowed to vote in this process are generally those people who have an affiliation with the Democratic party. In some states those not affiliated with the Democratic party can vote. Each state is allocated a certain number of delegates with most selected through the nomination process (as described earlier). The rest are super delegates. Each nominee is awarded delegates (excluding super delegates) based on different forms of proportional distribution.
It is impossible to determine how people would have voted in Michigan if Obama’s name was on the ballot. It is possible to speculate, but speculation means nothing when hard facts are required. Even if the states were counted with the full weight, Obama could possibly still lead Clinton.
You can call it a technicality, but the facts state that if Michigan and Florida followed the rules this situation would have been different. The only technicality that can be seen is how the primaries work. It is possible for a candidate with the popular vote to the nomination because the other candidate obtained more delegates. That is a technicality.
It can also be stated that Obama getting no delegates from Michigan is a technicality. However, most people would avoid making that argument. More because this was part of the punishment that was deemed correct at one time.
I would agree with “If one or the other candidate had decisively won this nomination, we could all rest in peace.”
Breaking a rule is in no way a technicality. Breaking a rule is in no way implies a defective election process.

Michigan and Florida have been punished enough. Their delegates hould be seated according to the outcome of the election. We don’t live in a 48 state country.
And Obama deserves no delegates from Michigan, as he voluntarily took his name off the ballot. His name is not “Uncommitted” and he does not deserve those votes.

Anthony,
I’ve been off the blogs. I don’t really disagree with you.
1. Is Obama winning on a technicality? My argument about Obama winning “on a technicality” or as the result of “a defective process” still stands.
The technicality? The states which were elimated because of their violation of the rules just happened to be states that voted for Clinton.
My son won a soccer game recently – the other team didn’t show up – he won on a technicality. Who knows if his team could actually have beaten the other team.
Obama is winning not by the will of the people, but the luck of the draw.
Obama’s supporters don’t see this, Clinton’s supporters see it all to clearly.
2. Was the process defective? Does that mean the outcome will be defective?
I’d say the defect is that neither Florida or Michigan were given a chance to hold a real vote.
I actually think the Florida Democrats didn’t violate the rules, so that primary should have been allowed to go forward in the first place – no need for a second primary. In Michigan’s case, at least, a second primary could have been held: the money was there, and Clinton was willing. Obama said no.
Ultimately, his campaign disenfranchised Democratic voters, not party rules.
The process is intended to reflect the will of all likely Democratic voters from ALL the states. Because MI and Fl have been elimated, it does not. In my book, that makes the process and outcome defective.

      “…the money was there, and Clinton was willing.
      Obama said no.
      Fact Checker | May 31, 2008 12:32:41 AM
Bad facts again.
If Clinton could actually produce the money necessary to fund two (or even one) primary, she’d not be $20 Million in debt last time we looked.
And, Obama didn’t say “no” either.  But I think I’ll make my stand on the former argument for now.

Lee C. ― U.S.A.
The money was there specificallyto hold the second primary. It wasn’t Clinton’s money. That is a fact.
Obama’s supporters in the MI legislature torpedoed the second primary. That’s at least how I remember it going down.
But, I agree, we don’t need to revisit MI. I’m just voicing the one real grievance I feel against Obama. I wish we’d been able to hold a second primary here in Michigan….;-(
I do hold him responsible for that second primary not being held. I may well be the only Democrat in MI who sees things quite this way. So, its not much of an issue.
If the FIRST MI primary’s votes aren’t counted, I can live with that. The first primary was irreparably flawed. The points you made earlier have made it clear to me that there is no way to get past the defects of that first primary. So, throw MI out.
I still think Florida could be included without any harm done to DNC authority and prestige. They should just throw out MI, and say they were wrong about throwing out Florida.
At the end of the day, Florida will not give Clinton enough votes anyway. But she can walk away saying she put up a strong fight in the name of her supporters, got Florida seated, lost the nomination fair and square, and can now campaign whole heartedly for Obama;-)

I gotta get some z’s.  Gives our “Fact Checker” the rest of the night to check his facts here and find out that the money was never there.
I’ll look back in come morning.

^^Why do Hillary and her supporters believe the Michigan and Florida elections are fair? The voters in those states were told that the votes would not count, so many would be voters didn’t bother. ^^
That’s too bad. They shouldn’t let things like that bother them and take their Right to vote away.

Nobdy is being punished, Fais’, by not being on the ballot according to their choice.

–Democrats will win substantial majorities in Congress.–
You mean that voters want another 14% Congress???

      “But she can walk away saying she put up a strong
      fight in the name of her supporters, got Florida seated,
      lost the nomination fair and square, and can now
      campaign whole heartedly for Obama;-)”
      Fact Checker | May 31, 2008 1:00:19 AM
And, just by the way…
I’m not expecting any of that to happen.
I’m expecting Hillary will urge Florida and Michigan to appeal this weekend’s decision, whatever it might be, and urge it vociferously if necessary.  (Or, appeal it herself if she’s got the “standing” to that.)
And then she’ll take the fight on to Denver.
Soon enough we shall see if I’m right about that.

I think Obama should geet nothing for MI. If you don’t buy a ticket to the lottery, how do you expect to win it! When someone does win it, you can complain you deserve part of it, you decided to not buy a ticket!

The DNC is punishing the people by their crazy laws. Through it all, Hillary has shown time and again that in trying to obey the crazies, she has been on the side of the people. Just because the DNC cannot reconcile now, why should they blame Hillary. Let them decide what they want and come up with another crazy plan and pay in November. They can prop up the most unelectable candidate and lose. No one wants to see the ranting friends of Obama anywhere near the White House!

Yes, in order to win, you gotta be on the ballot. He withdrew his name, and, now, he expects to collect some benefit from the election. So, in a sense, he broke the rules, and he expects everybody else to break the rules and let him have something for which he was not on the ballot! Can YOU say, “STEALING VOTES!

A BHO voter is someone who reads “Audacity of Hope”. An anti-BHO voter is someone who understands BHO”
- paraphrasing Ronald Reagan -

Lee C. ― U.S.A.
FACT 2:
CNN: No deal reached on Michigan re-vote
Sen. Hillary Clinton’s bid for the White House suffered a blow Thursday when Michigan’s state Senate adjourned without passing a bill to schedule a new Democratic primary.
A top Michigan Democrat expressed frustration Wednesday with Obama for not embracing the state’s proposal.
“The Obama people are blocking it in the Legislature,” said the Democratic source, who has not backed either candidate.
The source also said negotiators repeatedly and unsuccessfully have reached out to the campaign for input and cooperation.
The source said that Obama’s campaign has been asked to craft an alternative or to meet with the Clinton camp to work out an acceptable compromise, but that those requests have been met with silence.

Lee C. ― U.S.A.
Fact 4:
You ask
“Whose money was it? How much? You don’t know, ’cause nobody ever came up with the money nor the firm promise of their own money. Them’s the facts.”
I never said the money wasn’t Clinton’s. I said the money was there. Clinton supporters were willing to put up their half, Obama was not. I’m guesing because he saw no strategic advantage in holding a revote.

Barack Hussein and his preachers of hate will not succeed in overtaking the presidency of the United States of America and will be defeated by all americans that are proud and love our country.
We will fight until the end to nominate Hillary Clinton and if Barack becomes the nominee, then we will vote for John McCain, even though he is a republican, but in his conservative way he loves and has always been proud of America.
Hillary Clinton or John McCain, the only choice for true americans!