Did Blacks Tank Gay Marriage in California?

Asians and Caucasians voted (majority) no on 8, but it is the Black community that pushed the Rainbow Coalition on us…until that fight was for someone else that is…..the fact is that blacks overwhelmingly, followed by hispanics, for proposition 8. I thhink anyone, regardless of color or creed should be ashamed of themselves for voteing to tak away rights from a grup of people, however black people should have a little sensitivity, don’t yu think?

Thinking – every vote counts, I am ashamed of all people, regardless of color, who voted yes on 8.

Why are blacks so defensive about owning civil rights? Discrimination is discrimination. Rights are rights. We may not have been bought and sold, but we have been persecuted and forced into hiding.

I totally agree with stopping the comparison with those who were slaves and had NO rights. It is insulting and offensive to say that this is the same.
Gays continue to enjoy every right, protection, and benefits of married spouses. Prop 8 DID NOT change that. So quit whining that prop 8 “took away rights” because it did NOT. The very group that whines about tolerance shows hatred toward the Mormons.
Again, marrige is a man and woman…..come up with your own word and stop whining.

Here, here, chipo.
I am not here to blame anyone. I do thank everyone for the constructive comments put here to educate those who voted for Prop 8. I believe there was a disconnect within people, between their personal views on the issue and their intellectual understanding of fairness and discrimination.
As with all rights, we may not agree, but we should always uphold each other”s rights to express them as long as it doesn’t infringe upon others. As President elect Obama said, he may personally be against gay marriage, but he believes discrimination of any form is wrong.
The prop wasn’t asking if you were for gay marriage or if you wanted to enter into a gay marriage. It was simply asking should you deny someone their right to do it.

Why do people assume only whites are conservative? If any one here knows any history at all, you should know black folks originally were prodominately Republican.

No one is asking for moral acceptance from the Mormons or any religious institution. We are asking for equal recognition under the law.
And, never say never. We’re almost there.

I say it’s too little education.

The black community didn’t write that proposal and didn’t get it on the ballot. Blacks are not out to hurt gays, however the gay community is going to have to earn their support by getting out their message not assuming blacks “understand”. I’m black from MI and I was against prop 8, but many blacks I know would have been for it only because the gay point of view has not been presented to them at all. The gay community has benifitted a lot from civil rights legislation the black community has fought for over the last 50 years. They need to stop throwing rocks. We can work this out. The sense blacks owe gays is not going to fly. Communication is whats needed so this doesn’t happen again.

Florin, I stated that that person was too closed minded to teach their kids the truth. Prop 8 had nothing to do with schools, nor did it have anything to do with a church. I don’t need to indoctrinate any child with anything, including your religion. no one indoctrinated me, I am what I am,…. do you think if you were taught in school about the gay “lifestyle” that you would be gay today???? No- I am sure you would not be. You can’t teach someone to be gay. you can teach people to be tolerant… a clas you obviously missed in school, too bad.. the world would be a better place today if we taught tolerence.

Florin you have to be joking. Right??? You cannot teach anyone to be gay just as you cannot teach anyone to be hetero. Why is it that you moralists believe anyone having personal rights infringes on yours? No one is forcing rights on you. Prop 8 is about adults having personal choice to be legally married. No where have I heard anyone wanting to indoctrinate children. This is nothing more than paranoid conjecture and fear.

LW –
I respect your right to your religion and your beliefs. But the constitution allows for the practice of all religions. If my religion allows for gays to be married, why should your religion trump mine?

Gotta go – have and live tolerence… Jeffery keep up the good fight

Although it is true that African-Americans played a part in the defeat of gay marriage, the truth is that citizens with morals, ethics, and decency for Gods Law voted that Marriage should be recognized between one man and one women. God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve! Abe Lincoln

It completely disgusting that anyone would compare the civil rights movement to gays not being able to marry! It’s like comparing apples and oranges,. I don’t recall gays being enslaved or abiding by jim Crow laws! i don’t recall them being hanged from a tree or unable to own property! So don’t you dare compare the two!!!!!!!!

chipo1965. It is your right to think that I am wrong, but I have to disagree. You are correct that the Bible was written down by men, but it was inspired by God, thus His Word. The men wrote what God wanted them to. You are correct, too, that we all do have a free will, but God is still in total control, which is why He allows you to not believe and allows others to believe. However, on judgement day everyone will confess – our free will will cease to exist. Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I’m catholic and african american and as you can tell i’m very proud of the people of california for voting for prop 8 cuz marriage is between a man and a women.
for those who like comparing sexual orientation to race that’s stupid because one is a choice not nature but the latter is NATURE.
Thanks from a KNIGHT OF COLOMBUS

We all are sinners, myself being first. What is important here is to note that we are to love the sinner but destest the sin. If we at least do not point this out and try to help one another; then do we not each share a part of the responsibility of not leading one another to living a better life? Abe Lincoln

Wow, this is so unproductive. We need to learn from the grass roots efforts of Barack Obama’s campaign that include support from old and young, gay and straight, black, white, asian, hispanic, wealthy and poor, men and owmen. Most people never dreamed he or any other black man could pull together such a coalition. As a white gay man, I’m disturbed at not only the racism that exists in the gay community, but also in strained relationships between gays and lesbians. When we finally recognize that we need to reach out to all people to remove barriers and fears, then maybe we can collectively defeat a Proposition 8.

thank–
no one is forcing you to marry someone of your own gender. it’s not for you, fine. but don’t let your problem with it stop others from doing it, especially since it has nothing to do with you. don’t worry you won’t be invited to the wedding or asked to supply a wedding gift.

I am yearning for the day when we won’t have to argue this kind of crap. Scientists will soon learn whether there is a genetic basis for homosexuality. If they find there is a genetic basis, they will be able to test for it after conception. Most couples will choose to abort and the number of gays will eventually dwindle to nothing and we can argue about important things.

Dear Jeffrey at 9:08 PM: The point we are trying to make is: We love you as Gods child. What we don’t love is you jeapordizing your soul to hell for all Eternity. If we didn’t care we would just let you go on your way. However, we know we each have a responsibilty to each other here on Earth and you are just as important as anyone else. Abe Lincoln

Socrates was tried and convicted AND PUT TO DEATH by the courts of democratic Athens on a charge of corrupting the youth and disbelieving in the ancestral gods. You religous bible fanatics are EXACTLY like that. Instead of Zeus you have God or Allah. Your God will be just as silly as a cartoon someday too (hopefully soon)

I too am half black and half white. I find “Afro-American” to be racist. I am a American period. I belive in the Bible, I’m a Independent. I don’t believe in gay rights, even though our daughter is gay. Yes we support her due to the fact that it is between her and the Lord.

Oh, did I mention that I’m married to a white women? Been married for 32 years.

D Man – The Bible is NOT a fairytale, but it is your right to not believe what it says. Yes, I am a sinner (a forgiven sinner who still may sin, but who because Jesus’ blood on the cross, my confession that Jesus is the Son of God, and my baptism can be forgiven of those sins). And, yes, you are a sinner, too. We all are. I am a Christian and I don’t do strange things. I simply follow what the Bible says. It doesn’t matter what a Hindu person thinks of me. It only matters what God thinks of me and what my relationship with God is. I do think. I do not follow blindly. But, I do know that God is truth and I will pray that you find that truth as well.

Dear D Man at 9:27 PM: I have a Government documented 201 IQ. Thank you for letting me know there is a brain between my ears. Abe Lincoln

If you do not follow THE WHOLE BIBLE then you are NOT what you say you are. How can you pick and choose what you want to believe from a book and then say you live by it? Religion has brought nothing but death and mayhem for Dynastiesand I know you don’t care what Hindus think. You don’t care to THINK. You have your blnders on and can only see what you were indoctrinated. Religion is for sheep. I have read the bible many times I used to throw verses around for sport. I could string together verses to make it match anything. You are soooo blind. You either believe the Old Testament or Not. Jesus said NOTHING about gays.

I’m tired of stupid people. I wish they could all go to an Island somewhere. If hell is real then it is full of fanatics fighting each other and us more sensible beings will be in heaven peacefully with God.

Dear 2 cool for 3 at 9:43 PM: We are not playing God just pointing out facts. Sorry you did not understand that. Abe Lincoln

stop being petty and holding onto a word. whoever thought one word could lead to such conflict? no one should have the right to vote whether another person has a right or not. this prop shows how flawed the government is-allowing religious institutions to get involved in politics. there’s a reason for them being tax-exempt. they should have to pay taxes as i do for my store.

How can you taste bitter? You have tasted nothing but indoctrination all your life. Try traveling the world trying new religions debating scripture. Even mother Theresa admitted that she had doubted the existance of God at one time. You are so stubborn. And what is this abe thing? And why are you trying to get off topic. You can not give me ONE tangible reason (not one held in the recesses of your little hypocritical soul) that gays could not get married. Just so you get it right I have been happily married to a WOMAN for 11 years. I just cant stand religious demagoguery. You would kill Socrates.

Dan,
You are looking at a glass half empty and feeling sorry for yourself.
Gay couples have econimic advantages that heterosexual couples do not.
*Gay male couples have higher household incomes on average than any other type of “couple”.
*You have two males who are not subject to any glass ceilings and don’t have to worry about not getting equal pay for equal work because you are both men.
*You are both more likely to have your own benefits because you are men and thus more likely to have a greater cost of healthcare picked up by employers.
*Also, being men, it is likely that your healthcare costs are much less – everyone knows that women and children go to the doctor much more than men.
*Also – children are EXPENSIVE! think of all the money you’re saving.
These things should more than make up for the loss of tax deductions.
if you still don’t see the bright side then console yourself with thinking that at least you have a true love – even if it is some hairy dude – and that’s priceless…right?
There are relative pros and cons to most everything. Quit being such a drama queen (pardon the expression)

where is that study INSIGHT? if it was conducted by the senate (whose members believe the issue of gays should be left to the states and not the federal government which means they couldnt care less about it)where can i find it

LW, in the bible did God not say he is a jealous God. if humans were made in his image, how can God blame humans for their sins

Divide and conquer!! Divide and conquer!!! Stop the madness!!!

Dear 2 cool for 3 at 9:54 PM: My comments tonight have been from studying various religions for the last 41 years. And your background? Abe Lincoln

SWT, if you believe we should not judge then what’s wrong with legally sanctioning homosexual marriage? Aren’t you acting like God if you do not allow that because you find it unacceptable to your preferences (which is judging)?

HEY SWT…I guess women are more gullible than men, too, because you truly seem to believe baseless “facts” that gays earn more than straights and that healthcare for men costs less than women.

Yes, God does say in the Bible that He is a jealous God. He wants everyone to come to know Him and because of His power, He could force all of us to, but He allows us that free will to choose because He loves us and wants us to come to love Him on our own, not by force.

Abe Lincoln, a few minutes ago I wrote the following:
my views are shaped what i’ve seen and thought about, few outside entities has influenced my opinions. having studied religion, is that a pro/con/indifferent view you studied. also, what you have said are not facts if they’re insights you’ve gained from studying.

LW again any tangible argument? Arguing your version of the bible is like interpreting clouds. Fanciful, but useless.

Dear 2 cool for 3 at 10:17 PM: It was a spoof. Abe Lincoln

ey: Yes, people have to find God on there own as far as they have to believe it for themselves and see it in the Bible for themselves. But, Jesus gave his disciples (and Christians are also His disciples, which means “followers”) the Great Commission which says in Matthew 28:18-20 “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Jesus and God need Christians to help teach about His Word, but ultimately it is a person’s decision to obey His Word or not.

Jobeol,
It’s not an opinion. Gays are trying to assert a right they think they have. That’s how all rights are recognized. Had blacks not believed they had a right to equality (an opinion they held, but thought ludicrous by some racists back then) and not imposed their opinions on whites, do you really think the Civil Rights Act would’ve passed?

Paula is right. And those rights can not be easily transported from state to state. We should regulate religion based on population by state. See how you like someone elses beliefs forced on you.

ey- God does want people to come to know Him and yes, they will ultimately have to choose whether to follow them on their own. But, Jesus gave His disciples (and all Christians are His disciples, which means “followers”) a Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20 “Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Jesus gave Christians this commission to tell others about the Good News, which is that He died for them.

eventually politicians will have to take a definite stance rather than stay on the fence by saying, “i am for civil unions but opposed to marriage.” it is undemocratic for someone to have rights in one state and not in another. Saying it’s a state’s rights issue is the easy way out.

LW, what if they don’t want your help, as they have clearly made visible? is spreading your religion being Christian? if so, then i see no problem with radical or fascist islam.

I hope this doesn’t make Ellen stop dancing to hip-hop.

The bible is a book, and thankfully is not the law of the U.S. If you believe that the religious sacrament of marriage is a between a man and a woman, so be it. But there are laws on the books in many states that do not follow the bible or any one religion or religious text and this is one of them. So quit this “but the bible says this” business. The bible (which only some of us follow) can not, does not, and will not ever justify the law (which all of us must follow). If it were, there would be no divorce…which half of all straight marriages end in.

This is stupid. Why is it when things don’t go a certain way people want it to it was the minority’s fault. It’s our fault that Barack won, it’s our fault that we think racism is still around. But, what about being America’s fault that bill didn’t get passed.
I personally don’t care who people marry, but I don’t like MINORITY’S, being the ESCAPE GOAT, when something goes wrong. Minority’s do not have that much power.

Paula, too funny. What’s even sadder is I’m black and I can’t really dance. Stay down Ellen!

prop 8 was not about forcing churches to marry gays. it was about the government being able to marry gays and giving them marriage licenses. religion should have little do with this. eventually if gay marriage is accepted by the government, churches would accept it too EVENTUALLY, just as they did with interracial marriage.

All you folks throwing around the word minority, guess what? Gays are a minority. Get the point!

Most Latinos and African Americans have traditional values because their ancestors lived in a place where the Church had heavy influence and still does. You do not see churches in places like France where after their Revolution the Church was made out to be a disgrace. I am not sure whether the French are more tolerant but wouldn’t be surprised if they were.

I just want to emphasise the words of Mildred Loving, who wrote this forty years after her 1967 legal case struck down laws barring interracial marriage:
“Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don’t think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the ‘wrong kind of person’ for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry.”
God bless her soul.

momto3:
You just promoted a stereotype which shows those who may be discriminated against have the ability to also discriminate. It is a historical fact of life. I guess you don’t know all the gay African American and Latino gays that I do. But maybe they don’t exist like they don’t exist in Iran.

Thank-you to all who voted against gay marriage in California. You did the right thing for your state, our nation, and our children.

I worked for bc/bs of CA for years and many plans are very thorough when it comes to civil unions with the allowance of transgender surgeries, allowing same sex partner to be a dependant and/policy holder, allowing extensive aids dx related illnesses to be covered at a higher percent, specialist office visits, aids maintainenance, and hospice to aids patients, transplants from donors whom are same sex partners. From what I knew at the time, civil unions were regarded as the same benefits as heterosexual insurance benefits. By the way, AZ passed their proposition against gay marriage. But the state has a high population of mormons and whites. The population of African-Americans are less than 4%. So this should tell you whom actually made a difference in voting against gay marriage in Arizona.

D Man – I am not the judge. God is the judge of you, me and everyone else. I am only saying what the Bible says. The words are not mine, I just choose to follow His Word and believe what they say.

90% of the population is right-handed, too. Maybe we should put left-handed people’s rights up for a vote and see what happens.

I don’t care if people are gay or not. I am all for them having the same right’s as everyone else, but that being said I do not think that it is right for them to blame black people for when things don’t go their way. I think that they should understand that things do not come easy, because in that case we would have a Black, Hispanic, Woman President long before now.
We has minority groups, and no I don’t think that gay people are minority’s, have had/still do fight for our rights. I think instead of them blaming a certain group of people, they ahould try again and again. Blaming does not solve any issues, it only tears us up as Americans.

hypocrit08 said: “From what I knew at the time, civil unions were regarded as the same benefits as heterosexual insurance benefits.”
Sorry, no. I can tell you from personal experience that the state “separate but equal” rights and benefits are NOT equal. Just one example is that to get on my partner’s insurance policy, we had to provide our certificate of domestic partnership, copies of financial records proving we had co-mingled finances and lived in the same home for at least two years, and more. If I died, my partner would have to wait at least two years to add her new partner to the policy to prove the relationship was ‘real’. Married people don’t even need to provide a copy of a marriage license, and if their spouse died today, they could add a new spouse tomorrow. This is only one example out of MANY.
And those are just the ostensibly “separate but equal (haha!) state rights” , of which we get only some out of the full 400, and DO NOT include ANY of the 1000 FEDERAL rights that married people get. And those 1000 rights are not smalls ones!

LW if your “version” of the bible had been constant and not those dogmas not been fought tooth and nail throughout the centuries Slavery would still be legal and women would have no rights. That is actual history not your current version of what the bible teaches. God WILL judge you and so do I. I can because I have a mind (and use it) your version of creation is that an alien came here and started the human race. Not so far fecthed? But your religous ideaologies are tired and stubborn. unfortunately it appears there isnt much hope for your enlightenment but i will still hold out hope…maybe one day you will see the error of your ways.

Stop blaming people by race when something does not go the way others want it to. Everyone is always looking to cast a stone at someone else. That is why people always remain divided.

Again, I am astonished that the rights of a minority group was subject to a popular vote. In NC, there is serious hatred toward many hispanics. I guarantee if there was a popular vote of whether to send all “undocumented” persons back to their native country that it would pass overwhelmingly. The majority will oppress the minority.

LW…if you could hear yourself.
Use reason not fantasy or fairytale. My Gay friends can marry each other and that does NOT stop the love or passion between me and my wife nor affect my nelief in God. Marriage is a social construct. Quit pushing your beliefs on others. If a gay man gets married it does NOTHING to you. If he or she cant it affects them. So an argument homosexuals are pushing their agenda is mute. It is so difficult debating with someone so rigid.

LW
How can you say Jesus sanctions oppressing a whole population of people? Do you have any original intelligent arguments to propose? You cant debate the bible because it is what it is. A divers and contradicting beautiful storytelling. Jesus did NOT condemn homosexuals but you do. Are you above God? You do not understand the situation based on YOUR OWN Logic.

Should a nudist have equal rights? Should a murderer have equal rights? When society turns it’s back on moral character, it becomes lawless like Sodom and Gomorrah. And, their destiny was destruction. Is your moral compass pointing north or south?

moral compass– now now you know better than to try to compare anything else to the Gay cause. If you ask the gays their special and those aren’t the same thing.

Gays don’t face discrimination everyday nobody knows your gay unless you tell them.

Praise the Lord that Prop 8 passed! That was about the only good thing that came out of this election. However, I’m willing to give Obama a chance without pre-judging him even though I supported McCain, but not with Prop 8. Had Prop 8 not passed, that would’ve been plain wrong. Way to go African-Americans if you tipped the scale…I say thank you very much to you all!!!

Oh, thanks I forgot that if we disagree with you we get the name calling of ignorant and closed minded etc… just because we don’t believe sexual deviant behavior is normal.

There is a ridiculous amount of hate being thrown back and forth. Why can’t people discuss issues respectfully despite their differences? Enough with the insults. B/c one is against gay marriage does not mean s/he is a religious fanatic, hateful, backward, or ignorant and b/c one is gay does not mean s/he is a bad person or deserves to be treated badly. Bringing up divorce rates, etc. does not somehow mean gay marriages will be work either. No one gets married expecting it to fail later on. The state of marriage itself has become so weak b/c it reflects the weak moral fiber that exists within our society. Turn on the tv….wholesome, quality programming doesn’t exist anymore, it hasn’t for a long time now. Marriage is about love, of course, but from that love is created new life..a family, and gay marriage, or union, cannot do this…it’s against nature. That’s why I oppose gay marriage…I don’t hate anyone so don’t hate me for my beliefs.

I voted against Prop. 8 in a church. Voting locations should not be in churches–separation of church and state.

ddsa—how would i know your gay to discriminate against you unless you walked in yelling it out loud to everyone.

I think a lot of African Americans were offended by the LGTB community trying to equate their struggle with that of the civil rights movement.

Hope said: “Marriage is about love, of course, but from that love is created new life..a family, and gay marriage, or union, cannot do this…it’s against nature.”
Hope, what you’ve just said is that the infertile and elderly cannot marry. Keep reading.

People are free to live their lifes as they please; that is why we have a free will. However, those that choose to live their lifes in an un-natural way should not try force the legalization of such un-natural behavior.

If LW thinks God is the judge, why does LW need to judge gays

Thank you, Jan. Beautifully said. :-)

withinreason– I told you so.

i don’t think we will elect two black presidents in a row, unless the next one is as smart and caring and is the better candidate, which means your chances are gone. i’m against gay’s calling their union a marriage, but they could call it something else. Marriage is for two people of the opposite sex, not two people of the same. since there is a difference why do you wish to call it the same. you can unite, you can leave a will to whomever you chose, so this is not about rights it’s about annoying others. why should we agree with something we don’t believe in just to please you. why don’t you bend and agree with us. you don’t agree with us and yet want us to accept we don’t find natural. two men together are discriminating against women, no? they don’t like women and that’s too bad, yet they want children. i don’t think this will ever be approved. i personaly have nothing against gay people just don’t think marriage is appropriate for two people of same sex. allowing it to happen would only promote that being gay is natural and we already accept it, but let’s not advertise it and make. something else to love black people for, and no comparison between color and being gay. no comparison in my view. keep it in your bedroom please and the more they chant the more people will not want this to happen. blacks don’t owe you a thing, if anything i’m grateful to them for standing up to their beliefs and wish you would stand up to what is a marriage. a marriage is between woman and man. GET YOUR OWN DEFINITION and maybe you have something.

thankfully in this country homosexuality is not a crime, although i’m sure some of you may wish it was. in other countries, especially asian ones, homosexuality is a crime punishable by death.

One of the scariests outcomes of giving marriage rights to gays is the consequence this could have on children. Specially if it means that gays en mass can adopt children and raise them in their lifestyle. If gay lifestyle was not unnatural and degenerate, then you would not have to adopt children; you would be able to procreate them and have your own with your partner.

A sin is a sin is it not? if gays are to be condemned for sinning, shouldn’t everyone be condemned and have rights taken away from them? It does not matter about the degree of the sin. You are stained whether you lie or you engage in homosexual activities

i think orphaned children would rather have any parents providing them a home rather than no parents at all. and it’s not like they do not have a say in who gets to be their parents. what’s more plausible is scientific methods being used by gays to procreate.

ey,
Don’t “no-duh” me…When I said there is a difference between refraining from judgement and sanctioning sin, I was respoding to your earlier post copied here:
“SWT, if you believe we should not judge then what’s wrong with legally sanctioning homosexual marriage?”
I didn’t decide that homosexuality is a sin – God did.

they just got to face it. marriage is gender oriented. no way is there going to any other meaning for marriage. its a disgrace that Canada and others have seen fit to accommodate the destruction of this institution. the world is truly become blinded by Satan.

spr: I said what I meant. There were NO environmental factors. There is nothing to “believe” here, fact is fact.

Notagain said: “Paula, please a 5 year old doesn’t even know what sexual attraction is.”
I didn’t know what sex was. I did know what attraction was, however, and that has never changed.

Zorra, who is not approving of straight unions? You yourself would be belittling your children. In the end this has to do with how accepting you are and obviously not too many people are.

Yes, the fact is that blacks have deep family values and are going to vote their conscience. Thankfully they voted for their best candidate for president and honestly voted their values and banned gay marriage. Bravo for them. Is there some code that say blacks SHOULD be in favor of homosexuality? Now that’s a stereotype…

Paula, you can be attracted to anyone as a friend and you can even love your friend of the same sex. But what drives you to the same sex is the sexual devient desire of the same sex organs.

SWT there is a SEPARATION of church and state in our government and therefor your concept of who decide sin is irrelevant and should be so when deciding whether gays and lesbians should have the basic right to marry.

Sorry, spr I attributed the statement made by “ey” to you. ey, you said: “you get to receive benefits and recognition from the government that makes your life easier?” No. I don’t think I’m special. I get SOME benefits from the government and NOT some others. I don’t believe that the issue should be decided on a religious basis either. Hey, GO FOR IT! Get your 1400 benefits. (Make that 1399.) You should NOT get the benefit of calling your union to one of the same sex, “Marriage!” So, you have more struggle ahead. I will not cry nor rejoice should you accomplish your agenda.

Coherent1, if the government didn’t give special rights through marriage in order to help create social stability and happiness in this generation and the next, I’d be right there with you. But that isn’t the case.
The federal and state governments give married people about 1400 rights which are NOT easily codified in a single enforceable legal document. Domestic partnerships permit some of the 400 state rights and NONE of the 1000 federal ones. This leaves us to seek inclusion in the one word that currently encompasses all 1400: “marriage”. That’s all we’re asking.

This issue is gonna be one of the top the civil rights issues for the next couple of years. The numbers tell you that blacks, when compared with hispanics, whites and asians, are more prone to oppose gay marriage or any PUBLIC display of homosexuality than any other ethnic group in America. But to be fair, in California blacks are like 5% of the total state population, not enough to make the breaking difference.

Mark — Oh please the blacks know it’s not the same thing. Comparing race discrimination to a sexual choice is an insult to them.

I am a straight, married male in his 30′s. If anyone were to tell me that by law, I couldn’t do the same thing that my neighbor does because of a biological difference between the two of us, I’d be filing a lawsuit against the town/state/feds or whoever else that decided that equal protection under the law doesn’t apply to me. Not one of the arguments I’ve heard from the supporters of the ban against gay marriage stand up to the smell test. If you were to replace the word gay in gay marriage with a specific race or religion, would it still be okay to restrict the rights of individuals???
I just don’t understand how constitutional scholars and the ACLU aren’t up in arms over this.

It seems simple to me…
As I have heard preached many times, “The bible says marriage is between one man and one woman.” That is a religious definition of a certain type of union. Since our Bill of Rights implies that there shall be a separation of church and state then a religious definition can not be used to define a state-recognized institution.
I agree with Zorra. If religious folks want to keep marriage as a religious right and rite, then I say, “Fine.” If churches don’t want gays marrying in the churches, fine. But states are obligated by the Constitution to give the same rights to everyone. You can not use your religious beliefs to withhold rights from others like once was done to women (women’s rights) and blacks (slavery).
By the way, christians have already allowed states to redefine the meaning of marriage. Jesus is quoted at least 4 times saying there is no divorce. There aren’t many things Jesus is quoted saying over and over but he is quoted repeatedly (at least 4 times) saying, “There is no divorce.” And in the bible (I am not sure if it was Jesus that said it) it says about marriage, “What god brings together, let no man break apart.” Now when christians get divorced where do they go? Not to church. You have to go in front of a judge (a man) to be granted a divorce. Hmmmm?

Nina praised Marlene, who said: “The idea that blacks tanked Prop 8 is ridiculous and I am astonished that once again blacks are being singled out and blamed for ruining things for another group of people. Shame on you ABC!!!!
Instead of trying to blame Prop 8s failure on blacks the gay community should focus on opening dialog with all people who opposed it.”
Agree completely. :-) Martin Luther King Jr minded Jesus’s admonition not to antagonise oppressors but to win them over with reason and love. Nobody likes to feel attacked!

Danny – I have taken those courses so what’s your point.

Notagina(or notagain whichever you please), it’s NOT a choice and they should not be insulted for comparisons because it’s exactly that. No one made a conscious choice. Why would they want to be a social pariah outcast by society, by you? There’s no difference and people should not get upset at comparisons.

thankGod4prop8 ,
are you implying black are so petty that they voted against prop 8 just because a handful of gays leading no on prop 8 thought they face the same injustices as blacks once did?

JCL, if you really believe each sin is equal why do you not pass a prop forbidding lying? It’s a sin too. Why is homosexuality being picked on?

Danny, it is what it is. A bigot? I am not. Love the sinner hate the sin. I once fell in one of the categories listed as abominable by the scriptures; fornication, that is. I came into understanding, not easily, and not before trying to justify my actions. I fought hard to hold on to my lifestyle because I felt this was my body. I even tried justification by dealing with one man at a time. Of course, I had the same choice between right and wrong, good and evil and so forth. By no means am I perfect, I simply decided to choose God.
Paula, marriage was gifted to man and woman by God, the government simply recognizes marriage on the books by affording certain rights. If anything they would take marriage off the books since most argue the separation between church and state. But also remember, this country was founded by people with faith in God. Somethings are considered sacred, and should go untouched. By no means do I believe that same-sex couples shouldn’t have the same rights afforded by the government as do married couples. The rights are not scriptual. Nevertheless marriage is from God, and is between a man and a woman.

Paula– Those parades in the early years killed any hope for acceptance to come easly.

so what if someone doesn’t want to choose God Coherent1? why stop them, if they don’t want to be stopped and continue to tell you? If god is the right path, they will surely see it on their own.

When I think about the endless civil rights marches, rallies, petitions, vigils I’ve attended. The donations to traditionally black colleges and the endless times I stand up for my African American friends and neighbors my heart sinks into sadness that they couldn’t stand up for my humanity the way I’ve so gladly stood up for theirs. Perhaps they should become Republicans afterall. “I’ve got mine – now you go scratch for yours”

Defeat of Prop 8 had more to do with religion than with ethnicity. In this case, it was Mormon and other churches that used thir pulpits to preach against gay marriage. The question we should be asking: what God would deny this to same-sex couples? Let’s also keep in mind that for hundreds of years the Bible was used to defend slavery. It’s been wrongly used before, and in this case, the Bible/religion has been used to hinder the rights of gays and lesbians.

many people need to think they’re better than someone else. some whites always thought they were better than blacks. now some blacks think they are better than gays. power complex. but blacks dont make up enough of the CA population to sway a whole proposition

notagain, i don’t think gays are asking for your recognition of their marriage. they’re only asking the law recognize it and give them the full benefits, that means federal benefits as well, of married couples.

One more thing…this chain of messages saddens me. Many of these postings are getting caught up in the blame game. “You don’t support me, so I won’t support you.” Rather than complain, why don’t all of you (on both sides) make a point of starting a dialogue that gets to the heart of your thoughts and wishes. Gays and lesbians should ask to attend black churches…to begin a dialogue that promotes understanding. Also, go out and make your case to whites, Asians, etc.

notagain,explain how sex between two people of the gender is wrong and immoral w/o using religion since u claim you’re atheist

To the atheist…religion isn’t the only reason for such opinions, but it is the basis for many.
I’m interested to learn where your opinion was formed. Surely you must’ve read/heard something that served as the basis for supporting Prop 8.
An exchange of ideas is a good thing.

Obama isn’t that great. even he doesn’t believe in gay marriage. i consider him the lesser of two evils. my vote went to barr, the only one who sees gay marriage is ok even though he opposed it initially, among other reasons.

Brian, so Obama was hiding his true self just to get elected?

Yea, marriage is between a man and a woman. It is what it is. It’s scriptual and shouldn’t be redefined by someone’s desire of the same sex. If you don’t believe in God, how can you believe in marriage? Marriage derives from God, so if He didn’t exist, how could marriage exist? I will never agree to defile the true intentions of marriage. I can guarantee, however, that those who voted against Prop8 were considerate of the affects of Sodom and Gomorrah, and rightly so. Get the states to give you the right to visit one another in the hospital and obtain insurance and things of that nature. But again, I say, marriage is between a man and a woman.

I pray that we can respect one another, as President-elect Barack Obama has so eloquently called us to do. We all feel pain, but we often fail to understand the pain of our neighbor.
For those of us who are Christian, we can agree that the same book of Leviticus that is now being used to justify homophobia was once used with far greater virulence to justify slavery. We are brothers and sisters. As Christians, it is our path to follow Jesus, not Leviticus.

Leave the definition as it is….why would we change society as it has always existed for less than 10% of the population? It’s insane. Thankfully people showed their back-bones and passed prop 8 – the militants will say we’re bigots but who cares, we know we’re not. We are simply standing up for traditional marriage. We won’t be bullied. gays enjoy every right, benefit, and protection of married spouses. Enough is enough…lets shut these whiners up.

Gay is not a race, its a lifestyle.
How insulting it is to compare the two.

are you saying marriage between a man and a woman is a way to get married to God who causes the sun to set and rise rather than the sun’s mass pulling on the Earth causing an elliptical orbit? of course marriage can be done without, if humans were perfect. marriage is a commitment. for some people not being married means they are not obliged to a single person. if God created marriage why as i stated above would God rather we not marry? I don’t think the Bible meant virginity when it said unclean. I am sure it meant morally unclean.

blacks4prop8, you are discrediting ur own race and making it out as selfish. i am sure gay ppl marched with King but as soon as you got ur rights that’s the end of it. no Gay rights can’t be compared to slavery. but they slavery of blacks today only exists in Africa where africans enslave other africans. what makes u think ethnic people all around the world oppose gays? in four countries gay marriage is legal. you must also think gay blacks don’t exist.

Did they tank it last time also? This is the second time gay marriage has been voted down in California. Gay marriage doesn’t pass, even in very liberal California. Because Americans don’t support the idea of CHANGING marriage to include man/man, woman/woman, mother/son, polygamy, man/horse, whatever. Why is it evil discrimination to maintain American culture by not accommodating gays, but it’s not evil discrimination to refuse to accommodate Mormon polygamists? Brother and sister who want to get married? That discrimination is okay somehow?

Yea, I told you this earlier: all are called, not all will come. I know some people may not want to believe in God. They have that right, such as I have the right to believe in the Creator. It’s their choice and mine. Who am I to force them into believing in God, when God gives them the right to choose Him or not? I am no one, but a former sinner who chose God. Yes, I oppose gay marriage, it is unnatural and an abomination, but I still love the people. I love them enough to tell them what I know to be the truth, gently. But it’s on them to accept or reject. I will not argue, I will not poke fun, I will not ridicule, I will simply pray for them. Jesus sat at the dinner table with a known prostitute, so she too would know that her sins would be forgiven. That’s what Christ teaches us to do. However, I will not defile the Word of God so that people won’t get their feelings hurt. He teaches us that too. Yea, marriage is between a man and a woman and it is a vow to God, a union recognized by God. If you don’t believe how can you be married?

if gays have that right, why are you denying them that right by not letting them marry? you don’t want to see them sin but who are you to decide whether or not they can sin?

Jason Brown you might be right. I was a poll worker at a place in Orange County and I think it may be your first reason, along with the fact the majority of blacks do not tolerate gay marriage

then why isn’t it possible to have the option of gay marriage available to gays yet still continue with teaching them? if you deny people something they want, they will only want it more. people want to know they have the right whether or not they choose to exercise it.

marriage is not an exclusive group. it is the recognition of commitment and love between two people, regardless of gender. marriage is just a term for that. why have a word at all? just have an all inclusive word-like love.

I am sad that the law banning gay marriage passed. I am an african-american male that is I guess hetero sexual, whatever that means.But I am conscious of the privilege that this holds. I am from the southern part of the united states. I think that there is a lot of education that needs to happen as far as gender and sexuality is concerned in this country. I think making comparisons between race and gender may be deliberately shying away from the real personal and intimate learning through and of relationship. It is easy to monsterize and move into a places of rage and use fear and hatred to build a platform. It is also a form of oppression internalized or externalized. I would like to see more stories of blacks that were straight who actually supported the gay community not because it was the liberal or pc thing to do, but because they made a choice based on understanding through relationship. I know many blacks in the south that if you are white and regardless of who you voted for Mcain or Obama. That if you don’t feel comfortable with black people, don’t try to act like you do just to move a political agenda. I would much rather have a white conservative redneck who is who he or she is , than a white liberal yankee who shows his teeth alot but at the same time is moving south to gentrify your neighborhood with a smile. All this said I think that generalizing all blacks into one big lump sum is dehumanizing. And as well doing the same to the gay community is dehumanizing. I do have faith that under all of these coats of identity is something real/relations. I just challenge folks from both the african -american community in california as well as the gay community in california to find places and models where love crosses those lines. And continue to make this bigger. And to to help us look into our own families.
Peace and Guidance
tahz walker

why would Jesus Christ be in favor of destroying lifelong commitments based on love, and families with children and homosexual parents? the fact of the matter is, he wouldn’t – and those that claim he would are committing the very real sin of bearing false witness and misusing God’s name to pursue your own subjective and ignorant agendas of what you have been brainwashed by a corrupt hierarchy within the church to believe that God wants, when in actuality, the hierarchy’s main goal is to maintain their own power -

Hmm, if so then Evangelicals (as well as Catholics) should (have) welcome(d) the black vote. Come to think of it, African-Americans are among the most evangelical people around! So why are white evangelicals so anti-black? Are they still fighting the US Civil War? Why don’t Christians act well, more Christian? There is deep hypocracy in acting like Apostles when it comes to evangelizing and like sinners when it comes to human relations and human rights it seems to me!
In a post-Christian world, the energy that goes into sectarianism becomes available for doing good deeds; perhaps acting more “Christian” towards one’s fellow men and women, gay or straight, and towards respecting and protecting the environments our (grand-) children will inherit! Much of N. Europe already lives in a post-Christian world and it reflects in infant mortality and other quality of life statistics. Far from leading, America is too often a “trailing indicator” of where we have been as a civilization in the minds of many. I don’t think Liberalism can change that very much. The Neo-Cons have slowed progress certainly, but Neo-Libs offer little better in most respects.

In 1836 an Act of Parliament was passed to record the births, marriages and deaths for the population of England and Wales. The General Register Office (GRO) was established and from July 1st 1837 there was an official requirement that all these events be registered.
Before 1837 there was no set precedent for recording this information nationally although churches did carry out baptisms and burials and these were recorded in local Parish Registers. Marriages could only take place in Anglican churches or by the Jewish or Quaker communities. Other religious denominations after 1837 could have their buildings registered to perform marriage ceremonies.
The GRO collected these returns from the local register offices and indexed these into a year by Quarters. The three month periods ending March, June, September and December. These indexes only provide the year and quarter the event took place and to obtain the full information a copy certificate would need to be ordered.

You are the ones who are a cult you judge people for not giving up the meaning of marriage for your selfish act and push and push to destroy something so meaningful to a husband and wife by try to destroy the meaning of marriage also trying to destroy people faith shame on all of you.
You are stilling marriage was a religious celebration between husband and wife when they got married. And you all say the church should stay out of this. You should never had done this in the 1st place. How can you still something that never been yours in the 1st place. It was a wonderful thing between a man and women to get married and for those who love god you all want to destroy people faith talk about push and push. Find a different name for what you want that has not to deal with stealing marriage and or the meaning. that the courts can give you partner ship instead of destroying and pushing yourself onto people.
Yes the state gives out license to be married but when from the start got involve with the churches and wanted license . feel the state should never ever issues marriage license and the church should been to keep it what it was before. Show no one would b so crazy like they are now wanting to tae down people faith and religion and destroy the meaning of marriage!

Chris…don’t come to MY childs school. DON’T. You want to debate…fine, just don’t push your beliefs on my children.

Honestly, I think for a lot of African Americans it wasn’t a matter about civil rights, it’s a matter of what’s right, and what is wrong, morally speaking.

We are in the waning years in the USA and the western and other economically advanced nations regarding this discussion. When genetic engineering moves forward to the point that it can offer parents a choice between having their child born heterosexual or homosexual, homosexuality will largely disappear from those medically advanced societies who are wealthy enough to offer this service. No heterosexual couple would choose to have a homosexual child.

Just a qualifier to my last post…when I noted that there were more black men in prisons than in colleges, that was in a specific age grouping of young men, not the overall, collective black male population.

The notion that sexual orientation is a choice seems to have eluded science. Until you can prove that sexual orientation is a choice with empirical data, it would be prudent and accurate to withdraw that as a talking point. African-Americans (though they have suffered greatly) have not cornered the market on suffering. To deny that the thousands of gay Americans who have tried to serve the country (and been discharged from the military) do not suffer from stigmatization and crushing disappointment is a lie. To try to diminish the tremendous challenges of being gay (an immutable characteristic) in most parts of America displays an enormous lack of empathy.

Heres a thought…
I did not vote for Obama. However, I accept what the American people have chose and will support him. Now lets do the same thing with this Prop 8. The population in CA has spoken, they have chose marriage between a man and woman. You don’t see people who voted against Obama going out and trying to change the presidential election? Now you gays do the same and live with the results. Its amazing that if you (dems) don’t get you way in an election you always want to sue or threaten violence? Speaks volumes!

I still can’t get over how narrow minded some people are. I am Gay and have 5 children, each of them loves and accepts me with their whole being. I am so very proud of them for they are accepting of ALL people! They range from age 32 to age 15 and guess what??? not one of them is Gay??? How can that be you say since you are taught to be Gay??? Well for those of you who are narrow minded and bigots NO we did not choose to be Gay. The same God that made you hetero made me GAY! I doubt if any Gay person chose to be treated as so many Gay’s have been (beat, made fun of, killed & many other horrible things) that was why many of us either hid in the closet or denied what we truly were and are. Why do we want to be married? For the same reasons you do it’s as plain as that. Why shouldn’t we get the same rights everyone else has? Do you know that if there is a Gay couple that has adopted children together they now have to worry that if one parent dies that someone will come and take those children away from them? I can’t believe that the people of California think that is ok. I have friends who are Gay and have adopted 5 yes 5 medically fragile children. Now who should tell these kids that their Mom’s my no longer be married? Will you? Don’t you think those kids deserve 2 LOVING PARENTS? They have them now, and yes these are kids who’s parents either threw them away or abused them. Now they are in a stable home with more love then a lot of kids who have hetero parents. Someone told me they were voting yes on prop 8 because the purpose of a couple getting married was to procreate… I asaked him but what about infertile couples who can’t have kids? Should they be told that they either can’t get married, or have to end their marriage? What about people who choose not to have kids or to stop having kids? Well he admitted I got him on that one and he was rethinking his idea’s on it. Maybe just maybe this will open someone else’s eyes too. I pray it does and I also pray for all of you who think that you have the right to take MY right to marry away because I love someone and you disagree with who that person is. Hey I’ll even make you a deal! You stay away from ly life and my rights and I will do the same for you! We will continue to fight for OUR CIVIL RIGHTS and we will one day get all the same rights you enjoy! You Better Believe it!!!!!

I don’t get it. If gays are given the same rights under civil union, why are they so insistence on marriage. Marriage is by definition a union between a man and a woman. If you examine all species of nature that is the form in which all unions take place. Humans have bent the rules and allowed civil unions. Why is this not enough. Can we than refer to Civil Unions as the “Gay Marriage”

Face facts: blacks, even if Democratic, still go to church. And unlike white Christians, they still believe in the Bible as a moral guide to life.

“It’s a correction to my most recent writing as of that time.”
Thank you.
Just to kick an idea out there: I think that religion is a choice or a lifestyle choice to rob the phrase. There are multiple faiths to consider and there really is choice at some point in one’s life which way to go. We don’t agree on sexual orientation. That’s fine.

In some states, where this type of amendment has been passed, they have taken away insurance benefits from couples living together- STRAIGHT and gay. So if you voted for this and you live with someone expect this to happen to you too. All you people gloating about this because you think it will only affect gays – you are as ignorant as some of your posts.

“That they violate the Word of God in THAT circumstance,,,”
My point was that it is hypocritical to extol the sanctity of marriage yet choose not to. Why would they oppose gay marriage when they refuse to get married themselves? I think it is a serious violation of Biblical conduct and society has been compelled to accept out-of-wedlock births because of the difficult moral dilemmas it presents. Among these dilemmas: We cannot have children feeling that their value is diminished because of the their lack of “legitimacy”. But then how can we maintain that traditional marriage is the best way or the only way?

What an irony. Blacks on the wrong side of the same kind of civil rights issue they themselves faced only forty years ago.

Was the ban voted for or not. Does the majority get to voice their opinion or not. who cares who voted for what. Talk about sour grapes. Further, this is in no way a matter discrimination against homosexuals. discrimination should only encompass factors that are beyond a person’s control. Race, color, national origin and gender. Religion, creed and sexual orientation and the like are within our decision making realm and thus should not be included under the knee jerk response of that’s discrimination. a rather mindless response to cover a myriad of beliefs and causes.

“and, yet, that same constitution says that the People can overrule and override the state supreme court.”
And the courts can (eventually) declare Proposition 8 unconstitutional (if it is) because THAT is THEIR job.

Let’s take a look back what happened to all the great nations before us. They fell away from God, became Greedy, Sexual Deviants and focused only on themselves and what happened. God removed them and gave man another and anther chance and were just another nation that is failing and will soon be gone like all the others before us.

i really can see clearly that u people are trying to start a problem in anyway u can between black and white

“Homosexual marriage is an assault on traditional religion.”
Laws are not supposed to be altered in order to appease members of one religious group or another (religions come and go) when the whole of society has to obey those laws. Religious faith governs personal conduct and shouldn’t be part of the process of writing law.

Who put this proposition up for a vote? I would assume that it was a group or groups consisting of white people( or the majority). How many African Americans make up the population of California? Whatever the answers are, the most relevant point is that peoples’ rights should never have been put up for a vote. Also, gay Americans need to all come out of the closet and/ or out others so those who are prone to discriminate may see those whom they love being castigated and discriminated against. I am an African American married, Christian woman who believes we cannot allow religion and state to be married. We must allow everyone to have equal and same rights. It is unbelievable people can espouse beliefs that take others rights away.

One wonders what part of “the people have spoken” don’t these gay rights people understand? This is the SECOND time this proposition has passed – and now here they are again ready to take it to the 9th circuit to throw out the will of the people again. Again, judicial abuse of the system and the Constitution. Get a grip – you lost – live with it or move to an island somewhere where you can start your own government and society and wed yourselves to anything that moves (or not).

We should keep separate church and state on this. Right now both marriage and civil unions confer legal rights. Why should any church get to decide who gets legal rights and who doesn’t? Civil unions should be a legally binding contract between any consenting adults that want to enter into them, kind of like business partnership agreements. Marriage can remain a religious ceremony administered by the church before or after the parties have entered into a legal civil union. Maybe we could even have limited partnerships and renewal options.

It is amazing that any group that has been oppressed would vote for oppression towards another group. If marriage were purely a “Christian” entity and not a civic entity, then we would not allow atheists or agnostics to marry or any individual not considered a “Christian.”
There is so much research that substantiates that “normality” is not an absolute. There are individuals who are XX’s and XY’s, that is for sure. However, there are XXY’s and X’s and a whole host of anomalies that would make your head spin, not to mention the intersexed which may include pure hermaphrodites (individuals who share both female and male gonadal tissue). There are individuals who are XX yet externally more male than female outwardly as it pertains to genitalia and individuals who are XY who are more female than male externally. What about our rivers where 80% of the 30 states tested had higher levels of estrogen because they can’t seem to eliminate the estrogen from the water completely via sewage plants. The fish are becoming hermaphrodites and the females now outnumber males 5:1 in these areas. What about the animal kingdom where hundreds of species are known to engage in homosexual behavior? The research is out there. What about the right to believe in God and yet have a different belief systems as it pertains to religion. If God was not a God about choice, then there would only be one church, one faith system. Who among us would want to have our faith dictated to us by another church? To the God who tried to teach us the value of tolerance and compassion for our fellow men and women, I imagine that he is disappointed that we would not welcome anyone to the table he sets for us despite the differences in value systems. Although I believe that homosexuality can be nature, it can be nurture, it can be a combination of both; regardless of the etiology, Christians should be willing to be Christ’s ambassadors on this earth. I don’t believe that Christ ever never taught us to impose our value systems on others. He invited us to critically think our journey with him. I wish we could appreciate more this gift He gave us and afford others the opportunities to take that journey with Him without pressure from humans to believe a certain way. Isadoradean

Gays came out in great numbers to support Obama and traditionally Gays support all minorities. I personally think that marriage should not be an issue for the government at all! If people want to “marry” in a church, so what, but no tax credits or any other similar benefits including insurance, company benefits, etc should be extended to anyone because of marital status. What does the State have to do with it? This is a nation, or is suppose to be, a nation of equal rights for all. Clearly it is not.

professorj — Why are you all only targeting the Mormon church? Have you not heard that many many many other religions donated to the cause. Go after the Catholics, jews and many other religions who do not believe in your LIFESTYLE. Picket a Temple? Because Mormon people fought for a cause now you are spewing your hatred for a peace loving people. Religions are not spewing HATE on a people. It is HATE for the LIFESTYLE. I don’t know why many of you can’t see past that. You are not helping your cause in any way shape or form when you protest and throw things and act in such an undignified way. How many religions do you see picketing your peaceloving rainbow parades?? Religions are protecting the sanctity of marriage between a man and woman. We aren’t screaming hate at anyone.

Hmmm,
isn’t it interesting that of all the demographic groups that come to mind, only one seems to think that they do not have a responsibility to restrain their behavior for the well being of the rest.
Most married men would confide that despite the genuine love they have for their wife and children, they are sexually (and if homosexuality is not about sex, then it is not about anything) attracted to more than one woman.
The same could likely be said for women.
Both generally intend to control these impulses for the benefit of their marriages, their families, their societies at large, whether or not they are religious folk.
It is primarily those whos BEHAVIOR is outside the pale of what biology would consider useful to any society or species, who think that they are special, and do not need to restrain their behavior for the benefit of others.
I cannot think of a more collectively selfish mentality than that of the gay community.
woody

I have seen documentaries that show how white homosexuals treat black homosexuals with contempt. I am sad to see any black person involved in this behavior.
I have much more respect for most religious people, than I do homosexuals. My experiences with white homosexuals have been mostly negative. My experience with white Christians has been mostly positive–very positive.
At first, I didn’t care about same-sex marriage and did not oppose it. But, when I saw arrogant homosexuals calling Christians names for following the teachings of their religion–I WAS APPALLED!!!! I EXPECT CHRISTIANS TO FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. WHEN THEY FAIL TO DO SO, HOMOSEXUALS ARE THE FIRST TO POINT OUT THAT FAILING AS HYPOCISY. On Proposition 8, Christians lived up to their duty to follow the teachings of the New Testament–GREAT FOR THEM!!!

Cherryl, I find it interesting that you want to stand up against hate and descrimination, and yet there most of you are in Utah and at the mormon temples screaming at people as they walk inside. Throwing things, and causing traffic jams. for your “cause” screaming hate at anyone who believes differently than you do.
Calling for boycotts and with your anger and picket signs. Don’t you find that um, I don’t know what is the word… Hypocritical? You want peace, but yet you are unwilling to see why people voted yes for prop 8 (twice, I might add)and 102 etc. If you all could stop screaming and yelling and hating, and sit down to rationally discuss the reasons why, you may not like it, but it would help you to have tollerance for someone with a different opinion than yours.

Xaos wrote:
“If it is both or even just a state act then it should be extended to all regardless of political affiliations.”
Your point seems to be:
“if the state if sanctioning something, it should sanction it for all”
This is flawed since the state does not issue everyone a driver’s license, or allow everyone to vote.
Try again.
woody

I’m a straight, black, married female who lives in California and voted NO on Prop 8. I also marched from the City Hall to the LDS Church here in Palm Springs last night. I believe that there is no justice and equality until ALL in our society are treated justly and equally. Educating and going into communities including the elderly and all minority groups is necessary. I also feel that until white gays realize that they can’t have it both ways they will have a harder time with issues that affect them. They can’t be Republican or feel that they have “white” privilege when it suits them and then compare their struggle to that of black civil rights struggles. There are many that feel because they have financial means that they identify as Republicans. That alone is not the route to any sort of equality. Repubs don’t want an umbrella but will lure minorities as an opportunity to infiltrate and separate.
There is alot of brainwashing through the churches indeed and it certainly may affect blacks more so because of their church-going habits. The church was key to the civil-rights movements in the past but now the church is driving a wedge between “groups” on this issue. It’s a process and justice takes times. We have to come together and teach and spread truth, NOT division and hate. Ignorance is cured by knowledge.

Xaos wrote:
“Yes but the state allows everyone the opportunity to get a drivers license and the same goes to vote. If you are unable to do these things that is most likely because you failed the state.”
Exactly, gays are not allowed to marry because they have failed the state in a similar way to one who is denied a driver’s license or voting privilege (ACORN not withstanding, lol). If they wish to qualify, they still can as pointed out above by another poster. A gay man can marry a gay woman.
“But based upon your posting style I have to say that all you say only applies if the state is always right, which it is not. Government is simply and extension of will of the people to avoid a collective action problem.”
I never intended to claim that the state is always right. My argument is that the state is right in THIS instance.
“Try again (such a cute way to end a post, almost like saying haha I’m right you can’t play with my ball)”
Thank you for giving it another shot. You appear to at least be reading the post.
However, while I will allow you to play with my ball, I will not allow you to do so without adhering to rules of the game. You, unfortunately, have, by our position of atheism, all but officially renounced your entitlement to rights based on the Constitution. Let me explain.
The Declaration essentially establishes the REASON that we have the rights that are THEN articulated by the Constitution. To deny the premise of the Declaration is to deny the REASON that we have rights.
Since you deny existence the existence of God, and not just MY God, but ANY God including the God of the Declaration (I know, I know, the Declaration says “Creator” but the terms are effectively synonymous), you deny the premise upon which your rights should be legally defended.
No one has to “remove” your right as well . . . according to your own testimony, there is NO basis for your rights, lol.
annie wrote:
“Oh really woody, please tell me why that is. Afterall, you seem to be all knowing on this blog.”
I’ve already explained why. It is not my fault you did not read the rest of the post before you quoted it.
I reiterate part of my reply to another poster:
While I do think catering to a person’s intellectual integrity is worthwhile, I find pandering to their intellectual arrogance a waste of my time.
woody

People feel very strongly about whether this should go through or not. Eventually gays will be allowed to get married. It just might not be in our lifetime.

woody:
the declaration is not the basis for the constitution. the declaration stated why the colonists have rights and why they were infringed upon by the British monarchy. then came the articles of confederation which only established powers held by the government and nowhere in its preamble can u find the word god. then came the constitution whose preamble is as follows:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Where is God in there?

“The reason that the Mormon church has been singled out is that the Church itself wrote checks to the Yes on 8……..” I beg to differ. The church itself DIDNOT write checks to donate. the church asked it’s members to donate. Get your facts straight. What about Florida? There aren’t as many members of the mormon church in FL yet, their prop still passed. Same with Ark, and AZ. You are angry and looking for someone to spill your hate on. Read an article written yesterday… The Catholic Bishop Decries Religious Bigotry Against Mormons (SOURCE: Roman Catholic Diocese of Sacramento) “Catholics stand in solidarity with our Mormon brothers and sisters in support of traditional marriage — the union of one man and one woman — that has been the major building block of Western Civilization for millennia.
“The ProtectMarriage coalition, which led the successful campaign to pass Proposition 8, was an historic alliance of people from every faith and ethnicity. LDS were included — but so were Catholics and Jews, Evangelicals and Orthodox, African-Americans and Latinos, Asians and Anglos.
“Bigoted attacks on Mormons for the part they played in our coalition are shameful and ignore the reality that Mormon voters were only a small part of the groundswell that supported Proposition 8.

AGAIN, the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS AS A CHURCH DID NOT DONATE. THE MEMBERS OF THE CHURCH DID. JUST AS THE CATHOLICS, JEWS ect. WERE ASKED TO DO. THE CHURCHS AS AN INSTITUTION DID NOT DONATE, and there is no law that says that an organization cannot ask their members to support what they feel is right.

yeson8
gay couples do not have every right and benefit of married people. they cannot receive federal benefits since civil unions are not recognized by the federal government.

Name the federal benefits specifically?

There are massive lawsuits in Mass. since gay marriage was passed so you are right, it is going to the supreme court because parents are having their rights taken away left and right.
The voters in this state thought they were doing the right thing by passing gay marriage and it has opened a pandoras box. The state of Mass. is now in charge of what other peoples kids are taught, specifically that gay marriage is normal and the same as man/woman marriage. Obviously it is not, two men cannot pro-create. It is not the governments business what we all teach our kids….but once you allow gay marriage the state is in charge,not the parent.
The point is that Mass. made a huge mistake in allowing gay marriage in that rights have been taken away from parents.

your rights aren’t violated when your children are exposed to ideas contrary to what you believe.

i’m a student in the auhsd. i learned nothing bout marriage till 10th grade. why are u ppl so up in arms about it? i nvr learned bout marriage in kindergarten and i’m sure ur 10th graders can handle learning about gay people (n if they can’t u have to get them out of their bubble. gays exist).

I voted no on prop 8 because I believe only I have the right to teach my kids about marriage, romance, dating, etc. or they have the right to form their own opinions regardless of the state government’s or mine. don’t want my kids learning about straight marriages or gay marriages in school. I think when they grow up they will decide for themselves about the worth of both unions, without my input or my religion’s. My duty as a parent is not to pass my beliefs onto them. I know my niece did not learn about marriage at all in school and she is a senior in high school.

I’m a white Christian that lives in the south. I believe that if a right of another person does not affect me or my family personally then let them have the right. As for teaching my children about gay relationships; let it be taught in the schools along with evolution. If I disagree I will let my children know at home know without hate towards the other view. But I also believe that my children have the right to see all sides to every issue. I taught my children about Islam, Buddhism and many other religions. I did not belittle the other’s religions or preferences. I just presented the facts.
Come on guys…where is the hate going to lead us?
I don’t understand why we have to be so hateful to one another, why is there a need for finger pointing?

These exit polls can’t be right. The media assured me that all of Hillary Clinton and John McCain’s supporters who were prejudiced and bigoted, while all of Obama’s supporters were kind-hearted folks who help old ladies across the street. Somehow it must have been all those bitter gun-clinging western Pennsylvanians who passed Prop 8. Right? Right?

what if your religion is fine with gay marriage. i think mine is and so why should other religions trump mine? is it because of majority rule? democracy protects the minority as well. if it was majority rule, we would be a mobocracy, which is why the Articles of Confederation didn’t work.

I feel ya, Cali. Keep it straight.

All the more reason to try to be a better person here and now.

1. Through out history, marriage is the corner stone of continuation of mankind. If this duty is not honored, it is not a marriage. Don’t confuse sexuality with marriage.
2. I don’t call people names just because I don’t agree with them.

Re: “followed by hispanics”
Hispanics voted for it–53% That is not overwhelming support. Hispanics were basically split.

I find the essentialism in these posts offensive and ignorant. Most of the posts on this issue presume: 1) that LGBT people in CA are all white and that non-whites can’t be LGBT; 2) all blacks voted for the ban; 3)that marriage is the only civil right LGBTs or blacks had to fight for.
Many blacks are socially liberal, but religious conservatives. The only way to win this battle with any ethnic group is going to be through a 21st century human rights argument rather than relgious dogmas that have been perverted by most organized religions across the board.

way to go CA…say no to gay marriages, now and 4 ever

it is not true at all gay civil unions enjoy the same benefits as married straight couples. gay civil unions do not receive federal benefits because these civil unions are not recognized by the federal government. had prop 8 not passed and gay couples allowed to call themselves married, then they could have gotten those federal benefits.
PEACE.

CHUCK, it hasn’t been that way since the beginning of time. Polygamy used to be legal. And no it’s not the law we all have to follow. It’s not illegal to fornicate.

gays were never stoned in the country but it is true they were beaten, heard of Mr. Matthew Shepard? do u honestly believe gays had the guts to come out and announce they were gay back then? they feel today’s society is more accepting of them, which is true considering how prop 8 narrowly passed this year when a few years ago a similar measure passed 62-38.

my gay friends were married in the episcopal church in ca (yes you read that right, a church). since churches are private institutions, they can do whatever they want regardless if gays can lawfully get married or not. the government cannot stop churches from allowing or banning gay marriages. idiots who thought gay marriage meant churches would be forced to marry gays are just that, idiots. if you still think the episcopal church is sacrilegious, then that must mean only your and your religion’s definition of marriage flies.

California’s black and Latino voters, who turned out in droves for Barack Obama, provided key support for a state ban on same-sex marriage. Christian, married and older voters also helped give the measure the winning edge, according to exit polls for The Associated Press.
Proposition 8 overturns a May California Supreme Court decision legalizing gay nuptials and rewrites the state constitution to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman.
Exit poll data showed SEVEN in 10 black voters and more than half of Latino voters backed the ballot initiative, while whites and Asians were split.
Though blacks and Latinos combined make up less than one-third of California’s electorate, their opposition to same-sex marriage appeared to tip the balance. Both groups decisively backed Obama regardless of their position on the initiative.
Keep this in mind when you hear liberals ranting about the homophobic, intolerant California voters who oppose gay marriage.
I fully expect to see gay zealots marching onto South Central and East L.A. and threatening to burn down houses and businesses there.

“To me marriage is not just physical attraction and sex.”
Regardless of orientation, most people get married because they love one another and want to make a formal commitment.
And make no mistake; while Prop 8 may deny legal recognition to gay marriage, gays will continue to get married. There will be marriage ceremonies. Clergy from any of the many gay-friendly denominations and religions will conduct some of them. Whether or not they’re married in the eyes of the state, they will be married.
And there’s not a single blessed thing you can do to stop it.
If you don’t believe in gay marriage, don’t marry a gay.

Unfortunately, it is still acceptable to discriminate against gay and lesbian Americans. The vote on prop 8 shows that there is much work to be done on educating people – particularly in the African American community. So let’s get started and abolish hate and injustice.

Until this year the black vote was not one that many groups,(Gays or republicans) deemed important. Were not a race of people that many feel they should have to cater to or seek out.
And for all the gays who think there suffering is the same as what the black race has went thru in this country. You are kidding yourselves, and if you expect the black race to feel for you. then it wont happen until you feel the need to try and include us in you’re issues. Dont use our vote when its convienent.
I’m a gay man here in dallas, and when I go down and spend my hard earned money on Cedar Springs at the bars’, clubs, or any of the establishments. I still get those what are you doing here looks,Ive been followed around the stores, Ive had white bartenders throw money at me.
Just like church on Sundays.The gay life between blacks and whites is very segegrated. We dont share the same gay pride celebrations, and until recently we werent a group that the white bars even tryed to cater to.
But you expect us to support you when you actually need our votes. I would suggest instead of assuming people of color, are going to understand the gay struggle, get out and actually engage them, speak to them about the issues, and try and persuade them to vote you’re way.

The press loves this because it’s an ironic story. Much more significant is the fact that voters over 65 favored Prop 8 by about 60-40%, voters under 30 opposed it by the same margin. Trying to make this an ethnic argument is a misdirection; if we want to play exit-poll demographics, let’s look at generations. Public opinion on this issue is shifting, but it takes time. That’s why proponents of gay marriage rights have to keep up the battle–but please, let’s not point fingers at people based on their race or culture.

ey yo….If your ancestors are monkeys, I assume you have the same, or similar morals. I am not demeaning monkeys…just suggesting that if you believe your ancestors were monkeys, I can understand that your morals would be different from those who believe they were created by God in His image.

“However, shunning and attacking those outside one’s own limited social group is very much characteristic of the behavior of lower primates, such as monkeys.”
I agree, and you can see a lot of these folks demonstrating in California these days attacking Mormons, etc.

“An understanding of the processes of evolution does not preclude the development of a highly refined ethical and moral sense”
That’s true…the crocodile has been around longer than most species and they are far more ethical and moral than they used to be. I have been thinking of marrying one.

Civil unions do not afford the same range of benefits as marriage under law. Rather than have different systems for different gender combinations, it makes a great deal more sense to recognize all marriages as being equally valid under the law.
The “traditional” definition of marrige is a relatively recent development in religious history. In the West, at least, most couplings were what could be considered “common law”, sanctified neither by church or state, but recognized informally by the community. Usage of the term “marriage” to apply to homosexual couples goes back at least a century, when the term “Boston marriage” was used to describe gay women living together as couples.
The biological arguement is also bogus. Why don’t all human beings drop dead when they can no longer procreate? Simple — there is a competitive advantage in any social species for a certain proportion of the population to remain childless. These individuals contribute to the common welfare of the social hierarchy as much as other members, but take from the group much less than individuals with offspring. It comes as no surprise that homosexuality has been documented in more than 100 different species.
Even the religious argument is suspect, as several Christian denominations and many non-Christian religions support full rights and acceptance of gays as members of their faiths. Many will happily perform gay marriages as a matter of course.
Although the attitudes of individual LDS (Mormon) members vary widely, the behavior of the church itself in this matter has been somewhat less sophisticated than that of the average troop of chimpanzees. If they don’t care to be the target of protests, perhaps they ought to rechannel their financial efforts away from campaigns of oppression and back into areas where they excel, such as helping disadvantaged families.

kettasii, Canada allows gay marriage. Do you think their population is dwindling?
chuck, God is not the basis for morals. To be moral because God wants you to be is ridiculous. That is saying there is no reason to be a moral person unless you will be rewarded for it. and God isn’t all that great either. God says in the Bible he is a jealous God, it’s no wonder people like you who claim to have morals and believe you were created in God’s image really do not.

Saying gay marriage will eliminate the human population is a stupid assertion. There are more harmful man-made things than letting gays married.

Sorry I am not saying gay marriage will cause extinction, but biology is the difference between gay marriage and traditional marriage. Majority voted to maintain that distinction. This is the issue. Does minority have the right to redefine marriage for majority, or does majority has the right to retain the traditional definition?

pj, I beg to differ. The definition is at stake here. You talked about right of the minority, but how about the right of the majority? If I am so petty that I can’t let go of a word, then aren’t you so petty that you have to redefine the word marriage?

kettasii, I have never held the definition of marriage to be a union between one man and one woman. In a DEMOCRACY, there is no mobocracy. There is no clear majority of people who hold that definition.

I am sure that not all those 52% of people who voted yes cared what definition prop 8 gave marriage, as long as gay marriage was banned. it should not be legal to be able to vote on whether someone has a right. it sets a nasty precedent. years ago, the courts settled the issue of rights. it should not be left to the people to decide that.

pj, I cannot comment on the intention of 52.5% of the voters, but that was what they voted for. To me, the issue is not whether someone has the right to marry, but is whether someone has the right to retain definition of marriage. As I said earlier, this is the issue. It is the right of minority vs right of the majority.

that’s not the point kettasii. if a minority has a right then a majority has no right to vote on them. this is the first time people have voted to take away the rights of others. the majority has no right to infringe on the rights of others

the law had not defined marriage until prop 8 came up.

I don’t think marriage has ever been legally defined. It’s only now that California has a legal definition for it.

to pj and kettasii:
You’re much like everyone else, you come in here fixed to your beliefs. It’s no use for you to debate since neither of you will leave unswayed.

I do not believe you can have a sole definition of a word. If the majority voted to say love is defined as lust then I find it idiotic to have to accept it. Centuries ago, the majority defined human being as white men, until the COURTS, NOT THE PEOPLE changed it. it has historically been the courts that have protected the rights of minorities.

pj, The court can do what they think is right, but if majority feel strongly against it, they will change the court. Remember Rose Bird? Eventually majority win.
By the way, I am not for banning gay as I do believe it is not by choice, but that does not mean I agree to redefine marriage as I know it.

You people worrying about your kids need to be worrying about more than just gay marriage. Are you seriously talking about the same kids you nowadays purchase a cell phone and all these unnecessary things for? Yea right, you talk about your kids and most of today’s kids have no morals and values. Yesterday I was at a park and these three kids were walking by. They looked no more than 7 yrs old. Would you like to know what one boy asked the other? Whether he had sex with the girl trailing them! Oh no, what are we teaching our children if we let gay marriage pass…my foot you care that much.

Since most people see marriage as a religious thing, why not let the churches that will marry gay people marry gays and not force the ones who don’t? Everyone who gets married by the government is called a civil union and have the same benefits (that means federal too) as a religiously married couple. The government has no right to interfere with what a church does. They can’t tell churches to stop marrying gays or to start. So you can choose to get religiously married or by the government. Or better yet, why get married at all? Just move in together for life and have kids, etc.. But I know that won’t work because most people aren’t brave enough to stand up to what others think.

What if people were allowed to vote on Loving v. Virginia, claiming they wanted to preserve the definition of marriage? What if people were allowed to vote on Brown v. Board of Education? I’m sure the blacks would’ve lost. That’s why we need the courts. The masses really are stupid and the passing of this prop just shows it. The courts should overturn this prop as they would have done if there had been a vote on Loving and Brown.

Marriage rights should not be left to a popular vote. If they were interracial marriage wouldn’t be legal and decades ago people would have voted to keep divorce illegal since then only men could vote. Why this new course of trying out a pure democracy? We know it doesn’t work. If it did, we would need just one branch of government since the people would decide what was right and wrong, therefore this country would be decided by majority rule. Then the majority could oppress the minority any time.

In a democratic country, the government is elected by the people, for the people. It cannot get away with going against the will of the majority. The things cited, such as interracial marriage and legalizing divorce, happened because the majority agreed. Sure the government led the way, but if majority did not agree, they would have been changed by election, recall, amendment, etc.

notthesame, that is not the sole reason gays adopt. You don’t think it could just be because they want kids? What about all those straight couples unable to have children? Do they adopt just to look “normal”?

Democrat just won the white House and Republican lost. Nonetheless, I don’t buy the notion that a few people in the court can dictate the majority. If majority don’t agree with the court, it will be replaced. If majority don’t agree with the Constitution, it will be amended.

I think we agree on electing a few people to represent everyone. What do you think will happen if they don’t represent the majority? Won’t new people be elected to replace them? I don’t see how we can avoid majority rule.

No, you cannot avoid majority rule. But just because you have majority rule does not mean you can rule on rights. Rights are inalienable, by voting on them you make them alienable.

So it comes down to this again. As I said earlier, it is the right of someone to marry vs the right of someone to retain traditional definition.

kettasii, I forgot to mention that only the legislative branch of CA has the right to limit what CA’s Supreme Court set. Only they have the power to review the constitutionality of the decision, not the voters.

That is the ideal of a republic. But seeing as how CA is so liberal, they allow such voter processed things to happen.

the CA court’s decision was in no way unconstitutional since CA’s own constitution states people have “the right of an individual to establish a legally recognized family with the person of one’s choice”.

Who defines what a “legally recognized family” is?

Glad we agree it is the law. Now who created the law? Majority.

California Domestic Partnership Act. Many are bringing up rights. Is it really about that or is it about a label?

Thought we agreed that there is no way around majority rules. Majority elects the Government, which will be replaced if it does not represent the majority. Constitution can be amended by the majority. If the court goes against majority, the court will be replaced by majority.

If federal benefits is the issue, change that. Vote for new president and congress and senate. You probably will face the same thing, majority rules, but you may have more support. You have my vote.

I too would support just calling gay couples “civil unions” if they had the same exact benefits as “married” couples. I would support calling “civil unions” “married” couples if some religious institution married them, like the episcopal church in CA. Marriage began as a religious thing. People married by the government should be called “civil unions” and if they are married by a religious institution, they should be allowed to call themselves “married.”

kettasii, it is the right to federal benefits. Others who just want the right to be called “married” are just being trivial.

ooops.. i meant ‘Let’ God be the only judge!

Ridiculous.

This is absolutely ridiculous. This is supposed to be a secular country with a secular government separate from the church. This is not supposed to be a theocracy. Either the government should recognize marriage as any loving, monogamous commitment without an eye to the sex of the participants, or the government should not recognize marriage at all.
Individual churches have the freedom to marry any couple they so choose or deny that to any couple they choose, and individual people have the right to think whatever they will, but the government does not have a right to tell consenting adults what they may and may not do to each other or who they may and may not love.
Leave your morality in your churches and let the government handle the basics of maintaining an orderly society.

Brent, here is why. We have accepted the gay-is-not-by-choice argument. The more we give, the more is asked for. Now sensing that we are more tolerant, the gay-is-not-by-choice argument has changed to why-I-should-want-to-be-a-heterosexual. What is next? Gay-is-the-choice?