Biden Not Ruling Out Prosecuting Bush Officials For Prisoner Abuse
The Senate Armed Services Committee last week released a unanimous report that said that the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib, at Guantanamo, at prisons around the world, is a direct and indirect result of decisions made by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other high-level Bush administration officials.
So I asked the future vice president: Should they be prosecuted for that?
"That’s a judgment, remember, four years ago on your program I made, so I haven’t changed my mind. And this confirms," Biden told me.
"But the questions of whether or not a criminal act has been committed or a very, very, very bad judgment has been engaged in is — is something the Justice Department decides.Barack Obama and I are — President-elect Obama and I are not sitting thinking about the past. We’re focusing on the future," he said.
Biden argued it’s up to the Justice Department, under Attorney General-designate Eric Holder, to determine whether the case should be reviewed.
"I’m not ruling it in and not ruling it out. I just think we should look forward. I think we should be looking forward, not backwards," Biden said.
–George Stephanopoulos
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Our poliitical system is in “real trouble”
Biden said this morning on your news show that “the Democrats are inheriting the largest deficits in history.” Just how much of the deficit was already in place when Clinton left office. It ain’t all a Republican Problem.
We didn’t elect Biden to become the candidate of choice for the Democratic Party. Just what is he doing now as Vice President. What a joke.
How long do you think it’s going to take
before the Government starts announcing
they are “nationalizing ownership” of
everything. They’ve already started with the banks, brokerage firms and auto industry. What next.
God Forbid; but, with the incomming Democratic Politicians replacing the current politicians in office, that’s what I expect to happen.
Posted by: bill bonner | December 21, 2008, 10:15 am 10:15 am
A criminal act vs. very, very, very bad judgement sounds existentialist. An act is either criminal or not.
Posted by: kat | December 21, 2008, 10:42 am 10:42 am
hmmmmmmmm, BHO is not in office yet. I believe it is shrub-a-dub who has ‘nationalized ownership of everything.’ just have to ask: Do you honestly approve of what his ghastly administration has done? I find that so hard to understand – it just takes my breath away that anyone could be happy with what has been done by bushco.
Posted by: Mary | December 21, 2008, 10:42 am 10:42 am
Mary:
No one approves what was wrongly done.
What we do not approve is looking backwards instead of forwards.
Even a child who is practicing to
make one step after the other, instead he drops that stage and starts crawling again, that baby will never run or will take unusual time to do so!
Posted by: Rita | December 21, 2008, 11:19 am 11:19 am
Does this c*ck sucking Barney Frank ever get anything accomplished OR take the blame for anything? Now I see why there are so many angry fags prancing around in the streets – look at their slobbering hero!
Posted by: Marcus | December 21, 2008, 11:23 am 11:23 am
biden is a simpleton, he is old, and senile and he cannot articulate a coherent sentence.
omg and he is only a heartbeat away from the presidency.
Posted by: stella | December 21, 2008, 12:07 pm 12:07 pm
come on, barry wouldn’t prosecute bush for beating his wife on the white house lawn.
The man( either one) has no balls, no morals, and is only interested in fame weath and power.
Posted by: Tra la la | December 21, 2008, 12:07 pm 12:07 pm
Biden is correct. How can charges be considered or not until all facts are known. Fortunately military individuals have an obligation to answer all questions asked of them by a superior. If evidence comes to the President through a chain of command that there was criminal activity via the Cabinet, then he should turn it over to the Attorney General. If it stopped at the level of the military then he should have the Defense Secretary investigate.
Posted by: Arnie | December 21, 2008, 12:08 pm 12:08 pm
He and his treasury sec.she be tied to a tree and beaten I just read the bank big wigs got billions and the Sec wants to give out the rest TAKE this money away from him…..Honest to God what to hell does he think he is doing….Not helping the little guy.
Posted by: NH voter | December 21, 2008, 1:19 pm 1:19 pm
All of our financial troubles can be traced to the democrats. BARNEY FRANK SHOULD BE PROSECUTED AND PUT IN PRISON,for the YEARS of giving out unqualified mortgages. We lost so much in our hard earned retirement stock account. McCain was going to investigate him and now we got this lib in their who will do nothing. Very very sad…………
Posted by: Anna | December 21, 2008, 2:51 pm 2:51 pm
We should prosecute Biden for being Stupid.
During about the 5th or 6th dem. primary debate he said, in Absolute Definitive terms that Iran doesn’t have a Nuclear Weapon (if not an absolute quote then very close, –which also implies they are not close, or even more so that we don’t need to worry about it). He was rather Absolute & I wondered if he would get more questions, from the moderators, to back up his strong statement. The moderators let it slide (did they just figure it was another one of his Gaffs – or were they just favoring the democrats as they so often do).
BIDEN’S ‘METAMUCCIL-INDUCED’ “MOUTH”.
Posted by: I Can Hear Biden From My House | December 21, 2008, 3:05 pm 3:05 pm
Bush & Cheney saw a Modern Day Hitler for what he was and they preempted him. Should Hitler have been preempted!!
When I was growing up (in the 60′s) I heard that all the time. The world has seen a world class tyrant and never again should we let it happen.
Apparently that has been forgotten over the years as new generations came along and were indoctrinated by the Liberal Press. The WWII lesson has been totally forgotten by most. Thankfully not Bush & Cheney, they were old enough & experienced enough to not be SO Clueless.
Posted by: I hear Biden Talking Again | December 21, 2008, 3:11 pm 3:11 pm
Republican’s complaining about Barney Frank is like a cancer victim complaining about a pimple. George Bush is the President that has presided over this mess and he gets the blame, Repubs can squirm and moan about this person or that, talk about how it is Obama’s fault (already), but all they are doing is hurting their own credibility. It didn’t work during the campaign and it really won’t wash now.
On the subject of whether Bush should be prosecuted, the answer is he probably should be, but probably won’t. Obama will do what is needed for the country first and not be distracted. Doing what is right for the country is a sport Bush never played, and we all know it.
Posted by: Rich | December 21, 2008, 3:19 pm 3:19 pm
Obama, Biden, a democratic controlled congress and senate should make for the all time worst administration we have ever seen! and you thought Jimmy Carter was bad, just wait! Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
Posted by: BB | December 21, 2008, 4:22 pm 4:22 pm
Blame the American people for being so heartless,greedy, stupid and uncouth about everything that is happening here in America!!!!
It’s not the Republican, Independent or Democrat fault!!! It is EVERYONE FAULT and until we come together as a NATION, then we can not expect any hope for change in this country!!!!
ENOUGH!!!!
Posted by: sisterdearest09 | December 21, 2008, 4:44 pm 4:44 pm
Nice try “BB”,but I think the “ONE” has already filled the “Custodian position ?
Posted by: Doug Russell | December 21, 2008, 5:22 pm 5:22 pm
Welcome back Carter/ Obama/ Biden.
You all voted for the liberals, so now live with them.
I didn’t vote for such idiots.
Forest was right, You can’t fix stupid, so we got dumb and dumber in charge on 20 January 09.
Now put your head between your legs and kiss your bottom end good bye because you won’t have two nickels to rub together when Biden, Obama, Pelosi, Reid and Barney get done. OH I forgot Charlie .
Posted by: W. Orrin Eldred | December 21, 2008, 5:26 pm 5:26 pm
Rich, You are magnificently too DUMB to talk to. All our recent financial crisises can be traced to the democrats starting with crazy Jimmy Carter, unto Billy Boy. I have NEVER seen people truly dumber than democrats. they refuse to be “good”. I personally think they dem leaders do not like this country. I so wish they would leave.
Posted by: Anna | December 21, 2008, 5:43 pm 5:43 pm
I second the comment about it not being a republican, democrat, or independent issue, we had better all smarten the f.. up. If these monkeys get away what they have done–so be it. But we must vow to never be so stupid again–in who we place in that office.
Posted by: jrc903 | December 21, 2008, 5:43 pm 5:43 pm
Screw Bush and Cheney and their whole administration against the wall like they did to the America people. They deserve nothing less.
Posted by: Gig51 | December 21, 2008, 5:55 pm 5:55 pm
Biden is a dufus. He proves it when he speaks.
Elections have consequences and Americans are about to learn that.
Posted by: Jack | December 21, 2008, 6:19 pm 6:19 pm
Would someone at ABC News please remind Mr. Stephanopoulos that he is only the interviewer and his job is to ask questions, not to argue with his guests’ answers. This morning’s interview with Senator Biden bordered on disrespect to the Senator. Mr.Stephanopoulos should be told not to interrupt his quests trying to answer his questions. Regards.
Posted by: D.G.Murphy | December 21, 2008, 7:14 pm 7:14 pm
Just reading the above comments shows that all Republicans can spout is vitriol.
They have been in charge for the last eight years and got us into the mess we are in – a trillion dollar deficit, stock market crash, major job losses, and an unnecessary war. Bush and friends have lost our standing in the world, created a terrorist hotbed, and bankrupted millions of people – But hey, they made their millions, and that’s all that counts!
Posted by: Very Jane | December 21, 2008, 7:19 pm 7:19 pm
This is not a partisan witchhunt done for vengeance. This has been an assault on OUR (all of us) Constitution and without review and possible prosecution, this will set a precedent. When you set a precedent, you GUARANTEE it will happen again. This is not even questionable, as this is the most important problem our Nation faces. If Barack doesn’t pursue this, he’s basically aiding and abetting criminal behavior. Screeching for health care, gay rights, better wages or the economy before this is basically decorating a sinking ship. First things first or we will lose America for good. YOUR choice- get involved and DEMAND this!
Posted by: Titonwan | December 21, 2008, 7:26 pm 7:26 pm
We should prosecute Biden for government corruption. By failing to regulate Fannie, and Freddie and pressing lending institutions to make Ninja loans he and his cohoerts destroyed the housing and credit markets. Now they must apply Robbin Hood policy to clean up the mess they made. It won’t do much good, as these are the same FDR policies that extended the depression by 7 years and market recovery by 21 years.
Posted by: Dave | December 21, 2008, 7:43 pm 7:43 pm
“I think we should be looking forward, not backwards”
Then why did the Allies bother with the Nuremberg Tribunals?
Justice ALWAYS “looks backwards”. If you refuse to look at the recent “past”, you deny justice and confirm that the US is no longer a nation governed by the rule of law.
Why is the incoming administration in such a hurry to excuse war crimes, crimes against peace and gross violations of the Constitution, unless they are complicit?
Holder is compromised and will never pursue justice against Bush/Cheney. Biden knows this, so his answer is disingenuous.
Say goodbye to your Republic.
http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/confess/
http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/12/10/forgive-and-forgetforget/
Posted by: dragon | December 21, 2008, 7:48 pm 7:48 pm
Biden also knows that 9/11 was an “inside job”.
http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2008/08/18/movers-and-shakers/
Posted by: dragon | December 21, 2008, 7:52 pm 7:52 pm
We kill Millions of uborn every year, yet we are talking about prosecuting people who may or may not have tortured people who were out to kill americans. Give e a break! I say torture the hell out of them if it keeps our country safe! The animals do not give a crap about human life!
Posted by: chuck | December 21, 2008, 9:08 pm 9:08 pm
I say prosecute who you want. Then dissolve Gitmo, and bring all those poor detainees to the US and release them all in NYC and DC to show the world just how compassionate, and stupid, we have all become.
Posted by: TxBoB | December 21, 2008, 9:25 pm 9:25 pm
Having just seen Frost/Nixon I was reminded of the high crimes he got away with… Pardon by Ford and allowed to go free I was strongly against. But over time I reluctantly supported Ford in his action so that we could get over the LONG NATIONAL NIGHTMARE. Well folks, I was wrong. Nixon should have been held accountable for his decisions and actions and prosecuted. And if need be, jailed. WHY have I changed my view? Because if he had Bush, Chaney, Rumsfeld and others would not have been so cavalier about our Constitution, our Checks and Balances ,and lying to the America. people. This Cabal prosecuted a war that we were the aggressor for the first time in our glorious cause called the American Dream. The Shinning City on the Hill that Reagan spoke of is tainted. WELL ENOUGH – The chance to hold politicians accountable may have been missed in 1974… NOT this time.. This Cabal gets charged, prosecuted and if need be, jailed. NOBODY is above the law… The King of England* clearly learned this principle in 1776, and in 1865 with the Union’s whole sale defeat of the SOUTH – cemented this principle. Hey maybe Kenneth Star can work or their defense as he tries to take fundamental rights away from a segment of the California population.
* As an aside in 1776 the King of England was George the III. Is it not ironic that George W Bush is the President to have the name George. Yep folks, GW is our George the III… Jefferson was right, a little Revolution every 30 or 40 years is good for the country
Posted by: Patrick Coil | December 21, 2008, 10:37 pm 10:37 pm
No question Bush et al should be prosecuted in my opinion. As to the poster with a very short memory, Clinton left us a huge surplus. Its Bush who is leaving us a deficit that is even bigger than Clinton’s surplus.
Posted by: Michael ONeal | December 21, 2008, 11:20 pm 11:20 pm
Biden needs to be prosecuted for being mentally deficient.
Posted by: Sluggo | December 21, 2008, 11:28 pm 11:28 pm
I think it is time to hide Biden like for weeks at a time during the campaign. Barack leaves town and ther goes Biden looking like an alzheimer candidate. How can such a small man accomplish control over his state and probably pass his seat off to his son soon. Americans give Congress a single digit acceptability rating and re-elect 95% of them. The education system in this country needs help.
Posted by: rick | December 21, 2008, 11:54 pm 11:54 pm
Prosecute anyone and everyone who broke the law. Unfortunately, the statute of limitations will have run on most of these heinous acts. As for Bush and Cheney-no pensions, no federal funds for staff or office, and no secret service protection.
P.S. To Sluggo- someone who uses this name probably shouldn’t criticize anyone for ‘mental deficiency’.
Posted by: B. Bear | December 22, 2008, 12:04 am 12:04 am
Marcus, sorry I forgot to mention you. YOu trulyl are an anal rectal orfice, homophobe, and illiterate. Where is B. Frank mentioned in the main post?
Posted by: B.Bear | December 22, 2008, 12:08 am 12:08 am
Bush and his administration and his band of Wall Street thieves should be tried as criminals and traitors and be executed. This would be the most noble act to be carried out in the history of our nation and the entire world would thank us and respect us once again.
Posted by: Patriot | December 22, 2008, 12:19 am 12:19 am
In my estimation, water boarding would be very very very very very very very very very bad judgment.
Now, whether that’s enough very’s to actually constitute torture, I think that the Justice Department will have to determine.
Posted by: Mike | December 22, 2008, 12:46 am 12:46 am
Biden knows more about foreign policy than George W.Bush and Cheney do about obeserving the law.
The above poster is right about Nixon.He should’ve gone to jail to deter future political corruption .
In fact I propose both Cheney and Rumsfeld being tried and send to a federal supermax prison — they can then share the same cell and remenisce about Abu Graib.
Posted by: Peter | December 22, 2008, 12:59 am 12:59 am
Biden said this morning on your news show that “the Democrats are inheriting the largest deficits in history.” Just how much of the deficit was already in place when Clinton left office. It ain’t all a Republican Problem.
———————————–
To bill bonner – you mistake the facts. Remember under Clinton we have a net profit during the last two years of his administration and were reducing the national debt. It was about $4.75 trillion when he left. Before the current economic crisis it was about $11 trillion. I hope you do some research before posting on this again.
Posted by: Beto | December 22, 2008, 4:34 am 4:34 am
Beto : You are operating under a political myth. There was no “net profit” during the Clinton years, the national debt increased each and every year he was in office. There was never a balanced budget, there was never a surplus. There was fancy accounting, involving taking money from the social security trust fund, but even if we never had to make up for that.. we still spent more than we took in.
Posted by: howwouldiknow | December 22, 2008, 10:14 am 10:14 am
If he wants to start prosecutions, perhaps he can start with the treasonous comments of Terry Mc Aulliffe not too long after 9/11 concerning the Commander in-Chief, or he can also demand Main Justice open a malfeasance prosecution of the Clinton Administration for doing NOTHING during the 1990s as American Blood flowed from one slaughtered after another for eight long, treacherous years. We could also venture into the obstructions of the intelligence community under the Toricelli principle. But I’ll stop here, because Democrats are held accountable for NOTHING, and Republicans are blamed for everything. If Clinton had taken action 9/11 probably never would have happened because we would have rocked their world. The insult of this Democratic Party boggles the thinking mind.
Posted by: vincenzo4 | December 22, 2008, 11:33 am 11:33 am
Largest deficit in history is a direct result in a military that was largely deficit in real capability and morale for eight years; combined with a defense budget cut 40 percent and a demonstrated threat that bled out Americans increasingly over those eight years to include the very first World Trade Center bombing. Biden must think some of us forget things. His lies are an apostasy and an insult to statesmenship, but there agin goes the inbreeding of the left. One really good thing is that they now are running the show.
I prayed for and predicted a left landslide, which was obvious an outcome based on all the media programming of the voter for eight years. Now that same voter will actually see what and who they are.
We shall see just how neato, affluentm arrogant and classy and intellectual these self-appointed wisdom, mature and graduated cultural democrats are.
The corruption laden games have already started and they are going for the prosecutor’s throat in typical inverted focus to avoide a real depe look at them. Their boy in Illionis did nothing, he was framed, it was a set up because he supported the poor folk, right?
Posted by: vincenzo4 | December 22, 2008, 11:40 am 11:40 am
You out there who are cutting down Biden are missing the point of it all, or trying to change the subject in point here. Stick to the facts. This is not about Biden and not about Republicans, Democrats, or othercrats, and you know it as well as I do. It’s about Bush and certain of his failed die hard cabinet members, pitifully unethical high level supporters and catastrophic policies and cheatin’ ways. And the question is what to do with Bush and the rest of them. I say if not tar, feather and banish them to an iceberg, at very least fully investigate and prosecute them, if it comes to that, as it seems pretty obvious by now to more and more Americans that it will. Get off your high horses and help Obama and Biden save the country, for crying out loud!
Posted by: TimHolminParis | December 22, 2008, 4:00 pm 4:00 pm
George Bush is the President that has presided over this mess and he gets the blame
————————————-
Gotta love the liberal point of view….
So, your ready to apply the same standard to Obama ??????
For you information, for the past 23 months, DEMOCRATS have controlled the complete legislative agenda!!! NOT BUSH!!!
Barney Frank should be removed from all commitees!!! He went out of his way to force this current mess by insisting that we make sure “everyone” is ENTITLED to a house. EVEN IF THEY CANNOT POSSIBLY AFFORD IT!!!
Now, he does not even have the b@lls to stand up and admit his part in this. With Barney its ALWAYS someone else’s fault or problem… NEVER HIS!
Posted by: Mike_C | December 22, 2008, 4:28 pm 4:28 pm
I am completely frustrated and angered by this. The last two years, Pelosi took impeachment off the table. In the next few months, the despicable acts of this administration will be exposed even in more depth. To not prosecute and take a stand leaves a tremendous gap in credibility, as well as encourages the next admin to violate constitutional rights.
In addition, we can move forward on change and transformation by holding this current admin accountable. Prosecuting for crimes can bring a healing in the nation as opposed to once again just hiding burrowing it in the closet.
Shame on Obama and Biden for not prosecuting. They will regret it.
Posted by: Dr Joan | December 22, 2008, 6:53 pm 6:53 pm
“It’s about Bush and certain of his failed die hard cabinet members, pitifully unethical high level supporters”
—————————————
Unethical….hmm…..Exactly what fantasy world are you living in???
Every single presidency has had ehtics issues. EVERY ONE! Your “messiah” is no different. He has some brewing before he even takes office for cryin outloud.
Posted by: Mike_C | December 23, 2008, 7:48 am 7:48 am
Thanks alot ABC news for censoring my posts so frequently. You are trying to control the media and the people by doing this. If a comment does not “fit in” with your articles point( and of course it must agree with you) It is censored or even taken out completely. This is sad that ABC news must do this, because they are trying to be an unbiased and valid news source…….well I have news for you guys ABC, you are just as bad as FOX news- which is the absolute worst news source known to humankind. I will not come to your low-end news source unless it is to write an article like this. You are pathetic, and should take comments OFF of your site ENTIRELY because you are manipulating news and what people are really saying. Great work geniuses.
Posted by: tehevo | December 23, 2008, 3:36 pm 3:36 pm
I would go cautiously down any path like this although I have no use for Rumsfeld and the job he did. It’s an open ended can of worms and showing the difference between stupidity, arrogance and criminal intent is a tough call most times. Are we going to just statement and distract this government from really important functions while we go after this vendetta. Perhaps so.
Posted by: richard warren | December 26, 2008, 9:15 pm 9:15 pm
this continues what democrats are good at. They are great at investigations to cover up their wrong doings. Obama even investigated himself
Posted by: Carolinagirl | December 27, 2008, 6:30 pm 6:30 pm
Crimes committed by Cheney and Rumsfield should be prosecuted. Cheney admitted publicly to approving waterboarding; this is illegal, so he should be charged. This is simple and must be done if we really are a nation of law.
To continue to state that this has these actions have “made the world a safer place” is proving to be wrong in light of recent events in Gaza. Cheney and Rumsfield and Bush are dead wrong.
Posted by: Laur | January 4, 2009, 2:05 pm 2:05 pm
Biden needs to resign and go to hell and take dumbo, i mean mohammed the president elect with him.
Posted by: vladimir | January 10, 2009, 10:11 pm 10:11 pm
Fool Biden.
What is attacking the ex-President going to do to IMPROVE the USA?
Forget it.
First go put the Congress and CEOs that STOLE from the AMERICAN WORKERS AND CITIZENS…like Frank, Pelosi,Shumer, Dodd, and the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac execs and lobbiests, and the CEOs of the mortgage bank lenders that promoted the zero quality home loans and credit to folks without ability to pay back.
How about Biden worry about AMERICANS, RATHER THAN ABOUT TERRORISTS.
HE IS THE ELECTED AMERICAN VICE PRESIDENT, NOT THE WORLD FIXER UPPER OF JUSTICE.
EARN YOUR DARN PAYCHECK BIDEN, OR SHUT YOUR PIE HOLE!!!!
Posted by: RUFUS | January 11, 2009, 12:30 pm 12:30 pm
if you idiots don’t stand up demand better, you will have to live with the fact that you didn’t and explain to your children and grandchildren how america became the bad guy.
phone calls, emails, letters
time is ticking. the threshold nears.
Posted by: revhatchell | January 11, 2009, 10:33 pm 10:33 pm
Bush ordered my torture by C.I.A. (after I refused an invitation to
become one of his “telephone advisors” and have dinner in the White
House for a contribution of $3,000). I am a Democrat, then and now –
I sent my invitation from President Busy to the CNN Information Desk in Atlanta
where it may still rest. Shortly thereafter, my neighbor called to tell me a
“spook” wanted to see me the next; Indeed, the next day, a C.I.A.
spook gave my neighbor a hand-held Directed Energy Device, showed my
neighbor how to aim and fire. My dog died in a huge amount of blood. I
began vomiting non-stop. The neighbor DIED soon after (none of 5
churches would even bury his body). I was then taken from my home
where I live alone and forcefully taken to a “warehouse-type entrance”
of a hospital (the opposite direction from my own doctor and
Greenwich, CT hospital). Neurologists I had never met did “brain
mapping” and other procedures that prepared me for a REDO of old Nazi
“human experiments”, now UPDATED to include 24-hr. auditory
surveillance. Dumped back home, I began hearing a “buzz” in my ear and
believed I was losing my hearing until there was a ELECTRIC POWER
FAILURE ON MY ENTIRE STREET. Miraculously, I was “cured” of all
symptoms, for the duration of the outage, only. I learned first-hand
what “NERVE PAIN” is like when aimed at the nerve endings just below
my skin. Fortunately, I was able to reach my OWN Greenwich, CT. DR.
after a few dazed weeks where he gave me an Rx that helps (not
removes) the continuing “nerve pains” and where he was able to VERIFY
I HAVE LOST BOTH SYSTOLIC and DIASTOLIC markers (an out-of-state
attorney instructed my Dr. in how to prepare a “medical kit” of the
evidence). The CT hospital that prepared me for torture then BILLED
MEDICARE for the cost of turning me into a “human experiment” as well
as presumably collection $ from CIA. Persons IDENTIFYING THEMSELVES as
“C.I.A.” employees continue to torture me even today. I made a DIGITAL
RECORDING of them laughing and joking while willingly projecting their
voices into my tiny digital recorder. Unfortunately, CT attorneys are
TERRIFIED of DYING if we take the HOSPITAL and/or C.I.A. to court.
I am BEGGING OBAMA to DISARM and DISBAND CIA IMMEDIATELY!
Posted by: Mary Crockett | January 17, 2009, 1:21 pm 1:21 pm