Dems Give White House Ultimatum on Auto Bailout

It’s become political. If Bush agrees and it doesn’t work, the dems can blame Bush. If he agrees and it does work (which I doubt), then the dems say they had to force his hand to do the right thing. If he doesn’t agree and the Beg 3 go belly up, it’s Bushes fault, If he doesn’t agree and they don’t go belly up and file chapter 11, the dems will still take credit. Such is the way of Washington politics.

NO BAILOUT FOR THE AUTO INDUSTRY!

Everybody seems to forget the millions of people who need the auto industry to support their families!!!! What about them? What about my family? Why punish us for others mistakes? Think about other people for once….

Bush for wall street
Dems for auto street

Why should tax payers give the auto industry one penny? Those guys will just waste the money and then come back again asking for more money.

We need a strong “Third” party in this country to balance out these idiots. why bail out these jerks? They have sold the public “crappy” vehicles for decades and expect Americans to buy their garbage. I have no sympathy for these clowns…let them go down hard.

I was adamently opposed to the bailout and wrote my congressmen repeatedly saying VOTE NO. But, now that it’s passed and the the money is going to be spent anyway, why should it be just to help the crooked Wall Street thieves and not the US automakers also? At least the automakers have come back with some sensible business plans and concessions. The failed financial crooks are still handing out multi-million dollar bonuses and wasting money left and right.

“Why punish us for others mistakes?”
Precisely.
Why should the rest of us pay for the auto inudstry’s stupidity?
Why should the rest of us have to pick up the check for the UAW and it’s idiocy in not doing anything to help stop the bad decisions?
Why should electricians making $40 an hour bail out auto workers making $80 an hour?
Why does America owe auto workers a living?

There is really only one way to change the direction of the US auto industry – at least within a 2-3 year time frame. Chapter 11 allows EVERYTHING to get restructured including the management and board. A “bridge loan” only prolongs the inevitable.

During the election for President did we not hear the Democrats lambaste McCain on the “bailout”? Obama voted for it, and now the Senate is pushing for even more money for the UAW. Why can’t the UAW loan the money to the automakers?????

It’s time for Bush to behave like a Democrat – deflect responsibility. He should write a letter back. “I’ll do whatever President-Elect Obama tells me to do.”

Mr. President,
Let the dem’s know they can stuff it where sun doesn’t shine. Leave this bad policy decsion all on them and force them to vote for new bailout money. Cut the spicket off. Maybe bankruptcy is exactly what these poorly run and poorly unionized businesses need.

Welcome to the United Socialist of America, for we are no longer a capitalist nation. Have the oil companies bail-out the auto industry. They need each other.
Now that would be capitalism at work.

Reid and Pelosi cannot find votes from their Democratic Congress so they’re going to coerce Bush into doing what they can’t get done?
What total jerks.

BJS – Let them all die. They have been too fat and unresponsive to the market for years. The Democrats have fought Bush for years, and created this mess. Let em rot in h%^LL.

“why are we bailing out the financial sector too?”
Do as I have done. Write to all your representatives and demand the bailouts/handouts stop.

The auto industry needs a root canal and the Democrats think a couple of aspirin will make the problem go away. If Chapter 11 ia OK for the airline industry it should be good enough for the auto industry. BTW, these problems didn’t just show up with the economic crisis, the Big 3 bigwigs have been screwing up for decades.

For those of you who worry about the “Big 3″ going belly up and fading into the sunset, that’s the last thing that the “Big 3″ would want. If they don’t get the dough, then they’ll do whatever they SHOULD do, namely Chapter 11, and come back even stronger. Even if they throw money at them, with the economy the way it is, and the anger from over 60% of taxpayers who are saying enough is enough, they won’t be selling many cars anyway. The money they get will only let them continue their lavish lifestyles for a little longer.

“Posted by: brwil | Dec 4, 2008 9:13:11 PM”
You’re kidding right? You want taxpayers to subsidize private industry jobs? What happens when all of the Big 3 fail to return to profitability because they can’t get the master extortionists the UAW to agree to wage and benefit agreements in line with reality? More taxpayer money? Bankruptcy will NOT mean the end of the Big 3 although it will be the end of the UAW and their support of Democrats.

Dear Mr. President and Congress,
As a member of the United States Marines, I would like to ask the Congress and current Administration for an immediate bailout. I don’t really need the money to survive, but then again neither does anyone you are willing to help. If it would help expedite the process I am willing to rack on an enormous amount of debt and then blame it on the American people.That seems to be the way to get what we want. So Mr. President and Congress, I urge you to accept this bailout proposal as it could be essential to my future well being.
How pathetic!! We really need to start taking responsibility for our actions and stop expecting others to take care of us. Whatever happened to the old days when if you ran out of money you went out of business. If the government had bailed out every other automaker in history we would now be bailing out the big 10,000 and not the Big 3. It really is time to grow up.

To the Democrats. Forget askign the WH to do anything. You control Congress. Just pass whatever legislation you wish. Take a vote. Stand up and be counted.

Donbl, sorry about your luck but the entire country cannot shoulder the load of the ~3 million lost jobs in tax dollars. One of these jokers said they’re burning through $5 billion a month. There is NO bailout that will fix that. These companies need to find the way out of their own darkness THEY created themselves, or die trying. If they die, someone else will rise up. The unfortunate difference is, “someone else” may be Japanese or European. Such a shame… we invented cars but other nations found ways to do it better.
Probably because they don’t bow to unions.

President Bush DON’T GIVE THEM A THING.
Or else what????? NO BAILOUT NO WAY !!!!

The BIG 3 Can’t admit to Congress they have a Chapter 11 plan because if they accepted government bailout money and THEN filed bankrupcty that would be fraud.
Watch these charletons take the government billions and then a month or two later file chapter 11. Then the crooked Democrats will be able to keep their UNIONs happy by using OUR money to keep the monster afloat under chapter 11 for a couple of years.

These are LOANS people, not a bailout. Lines of credit are used by almost all companies every day in the normal course of business. The credit crunch has hit the automakers from several directions, none of which are their fault, making the normal channels for obtaining cash dry up.
From all the negativity towards the domestic auto industry and the autoworkers, it appears most of you think that the union line workers are the only auto industry employees besides the executives. There are tens of thousands of white collar professionals such as automotive engineers, finance, marketing, research, and facilities people with college degrees, many of them being advanced degrees. They all make equivalent or less than the same positions in other industries. Since you are mad at the executives, many of which the white collar employees also have little use for, you want to punish all of them by letting their industry fold because of the government’s lack of oversight of the banking industry?
Why the double standard for the loan approvals? For the politicians, it’s because they have investments in Wall Street, not Woodward Avenue.
How do I tell my three children, all under 6, that we have out of our house because there are no jobs in Michigan and Daddy can no longer pay for our home? I am not an overpaid line worker or fork truck operator, but an engineer that works 50-60 hours a week while collecting a 40hr/week salary. I worked my way through college, didn’t borrow a cent for my education,

The most spinless Congress I ever saw.

They are not just loans.
They are non recourse loans, which means once they get the money and fund the UAW pensions, they will file for Ch 11 anyway.

Just like a Democrat.Can’t make a decision
so get Bush to do it and then blame him
if it doesn’t work. I hope Pres. Bush doesn’t give them a thing. !!!!
Auto companies messed it up. Then THEY should clean it up. NO MORE BAILOUTS !!!!

The question to ask yourself:
Given what the automakers have proposed, would you put $10K of your own money behind their efforts? If you wouldn’t, than neither should the government on our behalf.

Guys. $700 Billion of tax payers money are already committed. By diverting $34 Billion to needed auto industry tax payers are not paying a penny more. Instead of big wall street fatcats paying themselves big paychecks, I would rather trust my money to exececutives in auto industry who will pay themselves $1 per year and save millions of workers of Detroit and Ohio from ruins…
Republicns are digging themselves in to hole by supporting bankers and not blue coller workers… and then you wonder why Ohio went Blue ?

It would appear to me that the Eastern Auto Makers should by out the American industry in a free-market situation if the American Auto Makers we a viable industry — which it is not because of past concession to the UAW, obsolete management practices, and lack of innovation. It appears that the loop-hole which allowed the gas guzzlers to enrich the oil industry (which Bush is a part of) has cost all Americans. American cars are better than ever — however the profits are not on par. The workers, and taxpayers must once again pay for another Liazze-faire Bush policy — which was proven to be ineffective int he 1930s.

The White House should drop it right back in the lap of Congress—- decide what needs to be done and submit it for approaval!!

First, I vote and have voted split party for several elections. Secondly, if both the republicans and Bush don’t help the automotive industry, then all should be impeached. You may consider this radical however, I don’t care about political parties or care about political alignment. I do care about he people that will be adversely affected by automotive bankruptcy. If our government fails to help, then we all fail.

RobbieSue — this is over and above what has already been approved!

Best thing he could do and probably the only good thing while he is in office…

Don’t buy into the hype that the country will go under without the Big 3. the other will be more than happy to pick up the slack.
Did the country stop shopping when K-Mart filed for bankruptcy?

Well Terry, that is very unfortunate, but if it truly is a loan, lets consider a few things. If a person went into a bank and asked to borrow money they would be asked how much they make. Well, if you are losing money every month you don’t have income. They would look at how much debt that person has and if they make their payment on time. Well, again if a company like GM is losing 5000000000 dollars a month by some estimates they certainly have too much debt. So if we look at this simply as a loan, guess what, their application is hereby rejected by the bank. i.e. the American people. Maybe we should go and find the former owners of all the other failed companies in history and apologize to them for not helping them simply because they were not big enough. That is some pretty screwed up math. You must have more debt than anyone else before we can give you a loan. Maybe thats why all the banks are needing “loans”. The less you make and more you owe the better your chances of getting a loan? No wonder we are in the mess we are in.

LMAO at the COWARDS in Congress

NavyVet79………did you get paid $75 an hour when you were employed by the Navy? Heck no, and you got horrable health care as well…. So why do I want my tax money going to so over paid UAW worker that makes $75 an hour, which includes $25 in wages and $50 an hour in benefits. And the UAW doesn’t want to give up ANY concessions to keep the Big 3 afloat… SO, NO BAIL OUT until the UAW comes down from the mountain and gets in touch with the real world….Once the UAW gives up 80% of their ridiculous benefits and the CEO’s, CFO’s, Board of Directors give up ALL their compensation, performance bonus, stock options and last 3 years of stock bonuses then I will want my gov’t to give the Big 3 a bail out.

What happens when there aren’t any jobs here to pay our mortgages, foreclosures hit the roughly 3 million households the auto industry employs… The mortgage companies are going to come back and say they have more bad assets!
Here is the root cause of the financial meltdown. People don’t have a job to pay their mortgage! When people don’t have money to pay their bills the foreclosure crisis will get even worse. The bad assets the government is buying right now as a good investment with a potential return in 5 years is going to take much longer to become profitable.
No one seems to realize the amount of burden that will be transferred to the government (i.e. pensions, health care, unemployment claims) if the Big 3 reorganize under Chapter 11. No one cares about the burden of the economy the Big 3 carry right now.
Both parties need to understand the calamity of their indecision and inaction!
If the country wants to let the Big 3 go into bankruptcy, then let it be so. I am not sure all of the jobs that are left in the US will be able to pick up what the auto industry will let fall to the ground. But we will see.
Oh and let’s not forget all of the taxes that are paid by employees!

Its not about democrats or republicans, its about the political nature of the game. Hopefully Obama will help in that arena, but who knows for sure. DONT DO A BAILOUT, let the capital markets decide what to do. This will dump management and force a proper negotiation with the autoworkers. no on e will let them go, they will be acquired.

That’s right allow the Big 3 to fail so you idiots can purchase cars from Communist China sold on the parking lots at WalMart by minimum wage employees. Tell Congress and the President to find a solution which “works” for America for a change.

I do not support the bailout one bit. The Auto Union is a wing of the Democratic Party and their greedy and selfish union contracts are the cause of this mess. The Auto Union should not get another nickel.

Mr. Green Jeans: Where is the WalMart located that sells cars from China? Or did you just make that up?

NH voter – I favor throwing them out if they don’t vote yes. They screwed up the financial bail out, they want Bush (lame duck) to support automotive, and they have stood ideally by for the past 12-18 months on other issues. Bush can trim his own hair these days let alone fix the crisis. I still think he should have his butt impeached though for gross incompetence as the leader of our nation.

or else??? what you’ll not confirm Obama’s picks so come Jan 20 you’ll blame Bush for your presidents in ability to due anything. Uncertainties inherent in the legislative process??? sorry you are so scared of the processes of our government that for over 200 years have kept us in the forefront of the world. Maybe it’s time for a change if you are an incumbent candidate you can no longer run for office in the House or Senate time to start electing “new blood” in our congress.

I watched the Congressional hearings today—- Congress sure has sore a$$ after what happened to the TARP funding. Sounds like they won’t approve squat without some serious strings attached. Such as— 1) Gov’t. appointed trustee/board of trustees with the authority to hire and fire management as well as Board of Directors 2) Trustee to have full authority to dictate any necessary restructuring of the businesses 3) Trustee to have full authority on the spending and use of taxpayer funding. 4) Taxpayer funding to be repaid prior to any other financial obligations 5) No dividend payouts to stockholders. 6) Forced consolidation of GM and Chrysler if the Board of Trustees deems it to be financially prudent. By their own admission today, GM and Chrysler indicated this was $8-$10 Billion in savings/ year. 7) Trustee to have full authority to establish compensation levels of management and Board of Directors 8) UAW to concede to wage and benefit structure equal to that of the foreign transplant companies— down to the penny! Gettelfinger looked like a deer in the headlights when he was told this. 9) 50% of the cash in the UAW pension funds to be put back into the company coffers as equity to assist in paying existing debts. 10) No taxpayer funding to be used to develop foreign relationships, plants, acquisitions, mergers, purchases, etc. 11) Forced reduction in numbers of dealerships.
I Sure hope they stick to their guns!!!!

The Auto Union does not deserve anything because it supports a socialist party. Since the union wants socialism, then it needs to see what socialism brings. It is not up to those of us who work for a fair wage to support greedy unions.

I was opposed to the bailout. But it passed any way and the the money is going to be spent, why should it just be use to help the idiots on Wall Street and the thieves they are and not the US automakers also? At least the automakers have come back with a business plans and concessions. The failed banking crooks are still handing out multi-million dollar bonuses and wasting money left and right.

Mike,
maybe you need to finally move out of Michigan. I hear auto plants are opening up left and right in the South.

Mr. Green Jeans—- Yo! Mr. Green Jeans! Whatever works!

Please stop all the bailout nonsense!! Get rid of UAW, get rid of all the green junks regulations, big three for sure will overcome anything!!!!!

No bailout for Detroit’s Big 3. Congress better listen to the American Voters or else you will be booted out in 2010. President Bush should stand firm in his belief that the American taxpayer should not risk good monies on bad investment. Let’s get real, with the state of the national and global economy and the financial trouble facing Detroit’s Big 3, the $34B is not enough to get them back to the black period. First it was $25B, now it’s $35B after everything is said and done it will be $125B. So the answer is NO! Let them file for Chapter 11 and try to re-organize just like any other business establishment. What make the executives at the Detroit Big 3 and UAW so special that they can suck these companies dry and run it to the ground with their special interest and expect the tax payers to bail them out. Like I’ve said all these elected officials better check the polls as 61 percent of the American public reject any and or all bailout plans for Detroit big 3. Be reminded that you elected officials are servants of the people which means that you’re supposed to act on behalf of the best interest of the American public as a whole. P.S. President elect. Obama pls. also take notice of this. The voters overwhelmingly voted for you in hopes of a President who will hear and act according to what the public wants.

Why on earth is all this time being spent on EMPTY words from both sides of this negotiating table? Exactly WHY do all these employees go down the tubes? WHO’s been holding the purse strings to all the payroll deductions these folks have been contributing to over all these years?
Perhaps ALL the big wigs of the big 3 AND the UAW need to EACH make a hefty contribution and bail themselves out. Since they seem to be the only winners in this fiasco of raping the public, government, AND the workers.

The UAW is part of the Democratic Party. It is a political appendage.
The Democratic Party supports global warming alarmism, high taxes, the United Nations, welfare, redistribution of wealth – these are the reasons the automakers are going under.
No, the UAW does not deserve a bailout. It helps ruin the economy and expand the administrative state and the expansion of the government. The UAW has brought this mess to the Big 3, to its workers, and to the country as a whole.
I say NO to the bailout.

I didn’t favor the original bailout package whose original vaguely worded 63 pages I read…and those pages were never changed as it passed form House to Senate and back again; 300+ pages of pork was added to it so people would vote for it. I don’t favor a bailout here, either. If we are going to bailout the auto industry (who cannot even remember back to the Crater era and learn from that) then we should also bailout Rite-Aide, Circuit City and every other financially struggling company. Sorry, the big 3 need to visit the bankruptcy court like every other business.

American cars ARE NOT made in America. They are only assembled in America.
Big difference.

No one said you created it Tracy. The Big Guys did. I’m sorry for your plight. NO ONE is having it easy these days. And it’s only going to get worse.

Mr. Green jones. Where is the location of the Walmart selling cars that were made in china? You said it was true, but it sounds like you really know where that is happening!

So it’s selfish to work hard and want to keep your money. Thats news to me. Heaven forbid I work and keep what I make. Tracy maybe you should try doing the same instead of expecting me to help you out, because I would rather go back to Iraq and make money tax free than give it to whining greedy people like yourself. Look on monster.com. Even someone with a handout attitude like yours could probably find someone willing to handout a job to you, but don’t forget to pay taxes so all the other unemployed people who haven’t looked for a job in months can continue to mooch off us.

I can sum this whole argument up….America is the only country in the world that has fat poor people. Think long and hard about that one everybody.

There is a lot of hue and cry to give money to the big 3 so workers do not lose their jobs. Remember that there are 12 car manufacutring plants in the US owned by foreign car companies. So if there is a bailout and it is sucessful, then these other car manufacturing plants in the US will slow down or go out of business. The workers at these plants will lose their jobs. How do we help those US workers and their suppliers. So why should the govt. help one group of workers to put another set of workers out of buisiness. Especially since Congress will be using taxpayers money from everyone.
Oh, does it have anythign to do with the fact taht only one group of workers are represneted by Unions?

Stutz, Studebaker and Nash are also looking for a bailout too…

would it not be illegal if we bail them out knowing that they will file chapter 11.
let obama bail them out once he comes into office-the unions supported him and he owes them.
sounds to me the dems do not want to shoulder the blame when the bailout fails to turn things around for the big 3.

Hey Mae, ‘shoulder blame’???
OMG, are you kidding? NO ONE is able to accept responsibility. That includes any politician.

Mr. Green Jeans:
You said That WalMart is selling cars made in China. Everyone knows that is untrue. So I keep asking you where that is happening to show that you are unwilling to debate or discuss this issue with facts. You are just using made up stuff.

Why should the farmers and ranchers in America (who by the way make an average of less than $10.00/hour) pay for a bail out of the union strapped corporations. They have paid their dues when they purchase farm equipment, parts and supplies. No one considers bailing them out when it hails them out or they get dried out…..NO MORE BAIL OUTS FOR ANY CORPORATIONS, THEY INVEST OVERSEAS.IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE IT, ASK TO SEE THE BOOKS, THEY KEEP 3 SETS…PD

roscoe02, No, they are saying approve providing these loans OUT of the $700B package that has already been approved so that we don’t have to consider spending anymore above and beyond that $700B. Half of that $700B has already been committed to (and partially paid out to the failed wall street). And the other $350 will have to be approved by Congress to be released later. They are saying, approve using some of the $350K that’s already approved to provide LOANS for the 3 automakers, or there is no way we will be able to garner approval to release the remaining $350B when the time comes.

I am comment number 299 in politics last night about this particular issue. I am rep./demo., whomever is best for the job, and sorry, but I do not believe that a contribution to the auto industry is in the best interest of this country. These people have made a fortune off of the American public and abroad, and what they are essentially asking us is to keep them from losing their profit margin. Look at the BIG picture, people. Even if we contribute on this end, we are still going to pay on the ultimate end. If we DO THIS, prices will not come down, they will soar higher(which they will probably do, either way), and we will be paying for their mistakes and lack of interest in more efficient vehicles for years yet to come.

Look, you HAVE to pay your workers REALLY well if you want them to buy and drive those huge $40,000.00 trucks we are making.
I even bought one once, my truck payment and house payment were almost the same.
What the hell was I thinking…

The ignorance displayed in the majority of the posts here is astounding. 1) Bush turned to Dems in Congress six weeks ago to get support for his financial bailout plan…to the tune of $700 billion. 2) The Dems are still dealing with slim majorities so its not as if they’re currently dealing from a position of strength..remember, its not the new Congress yet. 3)The auto industry is asking for $34 billion in bridge loans and the Dems want to tap some of that completely oversight-free handouts from Paulson fund. 4)the auto industry is the LAST major manufacturing industry in this country…(and if we go to war with another nation, we will have no domestic manufacturing infrastructure to turn to grind out all the necessary machines of nation-state warfare.) The “transplants” building factories int he deep South are almost exclusively ASSEMBLY plants only. 5) to a large degree our high tech is tied in some fashion pr another to the old nuts and bolts of building cars and will brain drain this country overnight come the death of industry 6) high worker wages beget high worker wages…it is utterly self-defeating for American workers to wish away unionized labor and participate in its villification by the “captains of industry and their Republican sychophants.
The race to the bottom that will ensue once labor’s back is broken will shock every one of you who are out there blithely cheering the death of American auto manufacturing.

This is NOT the end of the world.
And the sky is NOT falling……

Where’s Bush been hiding? Oh yea, he’s been busy pushing through measure to strip our civil rights, tear down the environment and allowing healthcare professionals to refuse to perform any procedure that conflicts with their religious values. God Help Us.
44 MORE DAYS TIL OBAMA!

The Dems promote “one world government” and multiculturism. Now, when it is time to ?buy American”, there is not enough sentiment of patriotism to make it happen.

oh, if the gov would just give me a $1000.00 personal stimulas check I could go buy that $42,000.00 Yukon. NOT, that ain’t happening either.

Thousands of people work at McDonald’s,John Deere,Disneyland,AT&T-what if every company had a problem?We cannot bail out every failing American business; it would be a black hole vacuum just sucking the life out of every American family with more taxes.Thanks to Democrats and NAFTA,our jobs went over the boarder and so did the Big 3′s profits.They should have been watching their budgets.NO-Let Bush leave office and the Dems can lie in their own bed of chaos.

RobbieSue— Sorry, but the Congress is not saying “approve out of the TARP funds”. They are attemping to approve additional funding. And are having a difficult time justifying it! One suggestion from a Congressman today was—”go to the Bank, we already approved $700Billion to the banks, why don’t you go to the banks?! As a fallback, now Congress is screaming to the WhiteHouse that they need to approve fnding from TARP, because Congress can’t agree on a plan! It’s a hot Potatoe no one wants to touch it! Whoever touches it last will burn in h3ll!

JRiley, could it be cuz Frank is a democrat??? Dont wanna make waves now do we?

They can’t move the massive inventories of autos they have sitting around now, many units yet to even make it to dealer lots.
Loans are tight, interest rates suck unless you walk on water financially and nobody can or wants an incredibly expensive burden at a bad deal in a time of such low confidence and insecurity.
Any loans, bailouts or whatever the hell you want to call them are just postponing the inevitable for these companies unless they restructure their business models. The amount of discretionary income for spending of the average consumer has been plummenting for years under Bush fiscal policy. Oh, he’s pacified us well enough I suppose with supposed tax cuts(miniscule for the majority of average Americans while fuel and food costs skyrocketed) and a couple stimulus checks and we’re pretty easily fooled really.

Congress can’t pass a bailout plan so they want Bush to give them the money so he can be on the hook with the public while Obama remains silent. Obama is a weakling. NO BAILOUTS FOR ANYONE!

um, for all you guys all about the Dems have the House and Senate now…it’s still the same depending on when the vote is, the vote would include all the current lame duckers from either side that are about to be ousted by the newly elected…

and Obama isn’t President YET, and has no official presidential power…
and Bush isn’t absolved of all responsibily for this incredible mess he has created over the last 8 years just because he’s leaving and it’s not all Obama’s fault, in fact, it’s none of Obama’s fault and hopefully he can help us out of this mess

So the Republicans give away over a TRILLION dollars to Wall Street fools who do not make anything or really contribute much of anything to the improvement of society…
So the Democrats want to help restore the backbone of American exports and manufacturing (actually making something) with a $35 billion loan and the Republicans don’t want to do it.
Facts are that Republicans are very stupid people. Economies grow when we actually make things. They are too dumb to know this and that is a big reason we are in this HUGE mess.

For thoses bashing Bush, did you not read the ABC article that stated that Bush is not doing anything without consulting Obama. That is pretty thoughtfull….I mean Bush could hand Obama a BIG mess but he doesn’t want to screw up Obama’s financial plan to get the economy back on track.

we are socialist because of capitalism
why fight it?
corporate feudalism or guild wars or no money property rights damn them all third party spoilers our only hope

It is interesting to note how vicious the anti-middle class, and anti lower middle class tone in these posts becomes a when it comes to saving the jobs of people without MBAs. Its very sad.

no bailout.
waste of money.
bankruptcy will keep the company afloat. It will clean out the problems. Ford builds the most modern plant in Brazil. the problem is the UAW union. There will never be a solid
American car manufacturer as long as the UAW suck everyone dry for welfare.

Welcome to the United States of the Third World.
The only difference between the US working class and the working class of just about every country south of the border is that they know who their enemy is.
This backbiting and sniping MUST end. We are ALL in this mess together: a defeat for one is a defeat for all. Anyone who can’t see that is playing right into the hands of the ruling class.

this is about breaking a union.

No bail-out. It is enough

What is this? Nothing on Fox News tonight?
Alan Colmes too busy to take your calls?
Can’t wait to find out how you all react when you actually have something substantial to blame Democrats about.
It looks like the Kool-Aid class has finally lost its taste for all things “American.”
It’s about time.

The stupidity and heartlessness of most of these posts is just stunning. This isn’t a joke and believe me EVERY American will pay the price if GM et al go down. If you think “who cares?” about the states of Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin, Kentucky etc. just wait till the effects come to your town! It is no exaggeration to say that we will lose virtually our entire manufacturing base in this country-really, what else do we actually PRODUCE here anymore? You think that doesn’t matter? By the way, the only reason Toyota, Honda, BMW and others have plants in the US is because they can’t have access to parts and services without building here; the loss of the suppliers that will fall like dominos will remove their incentive to continue to operate here. They will go off to cheaper locales taking thousands more jobs with them. Do you also know that the mythical $80/hr UAW workers supposedly make is only calculated with the cost of retiree pensions factored in….the foreign auto companies haven’t operated in the US long enough to have retiree costs build up and workers no longer are promised traditional pensions in ANY auto company. Actually salaries vary between union and non-union auto companies by only 3-5 dollars per hour. Is that worth decimating this industry and destroying the unions? You people who are so bitter about Democrats, stupid auto industry executives and union workers who make more than you do need to grow up, get a life and face the facts that this is not some idealogical argument about what industries/companies are better that others; this is about peoples lives, homes, livelihoods and communities. Once again,grow up and display some humanity. Unless you want to watch this country fall to pieces.

Margaret: Are you willing to bail out every company in the US who makes things and is having a diffcult time? Or only the companies with union workers?

Margaret…….did you say, ‘WILL’ lose manufacturing?

Guys, Bush was horrible and voters kicked your lot to the curb.
Now try to remain quiet.

When will Obama, Pelosi, Reid, etc lead by example and give up their salaries!
Obama is a millionare, so is Pelosi, Kerry, Reid, etc, etc, etc when will they give up their salaries?
The nation could save millions if not billions if politicians around the nation, from BOTH parties gave up their salaries which is paid by our tax dollars.
If Obama is such a great leader who demeaned and belittled CEOs for having such high salaries and bonuses, why doesn’t he lead by example and give up his $400,000 Presidential salary.
Obama, Reid, Pelosi, Kennedy, etc are all millionares, why don’t they give up some of their millions and infuse it into the american economy if they care so much about the poor and middle class?
Where is Obama’s leadership?

ah, depends on how quick a vote you want
while Democrats hold a majority in the chamber, they need to peel away a few Republicans to get the 60 votes required to limit debate, plus not all Dems are in support of this yet.

Apparently few of you passed US History in high school.
You do remember that “let them all fail and let God sort them out” was the mantra of the Hoover administration, too. THAT turned out well. Typical conservatives to not use their heads and not know their facts or their history.
Yes, a bridge loan is expensive, but not half as expensive as a collapse created by 30 years of conservative policies. Sure, give them the money, then require these giants to do something responsible for the country for once rather than looking to their own overstuffed wallets.

I am amused by comments blaming the Democrats for the current economic mess. The main reason we are in this situation is the lifting of regulations over the financial services industry. Most economists say this one reason has brought us this very unique crisis. Phil Gramm, McCain’s economic advisor, more than anyone else, bears much of the blame. He pushed a bill that repealed the depression era Glass-Steagall Act in 1999. This allowed banks to take more risks with less oversight, allowed banks to become brokers, sell insurance and to join the obscenely leveraged world of derivatives. A shadow banking system created at least 80 trillion dollars of derivatives so complicated that no one seems to understand them. Bernanke needed intense tutorials from top hedge fund managers to understand them. These people are con men; criminals. They were leveraged as much as 300 to 1!!! The Republican desire to deregulate all businesses and trust them to be honest was the main cause. Sen Gramm joined the board of UBS after he got the legislation passed and became a lobbyist for the banking industry. UBS gave him a huge payoff and bought Paine webber a few months after the legislation passed. They are currently facing indictments for 3000 cases of tax fraud.

Posted by: Margaret | Dec 4, 2008 11:56:34 PM
is one of the few really smart people who have posted here. What the heck is wrong with most of you people? I, for one, don’t care to see the Pension Guarantee Corporation utilized to take on the burdens of these massive pension obligations and let the shareholders get off scott-free. Let THEM assume the risks, and let THEM pay back these loans we need to make.
The auto manufacturers need to do what ever other company that needs to raise cash must do. Slash the prices (and I mean slash), sell all that inventory and then fire up the manufacturing again.
Stop trying to force a long, miserable depression onto the rest of us. Think it through.

Ironic, the idiot president gave congress the same ultimatum: pass this three page bailout or the sky would fall. How quickly you republicans forget it was this clown that called for the bailout to begin with. ……and they wonder why they lost and chose Palin as their hero!

The big question is whether or not it would actually do any good. A loan that will probably work, why not? A loan that is just one of many others down the line maybe that won’t be paid back and folks lose their jobs anyway? But there is no crystal ball on this.
The fact that it’s a whole type of American industry, and not just a specific company, is what’s weird. If they’re pressured to make more expensive cars with more expensive emission controls and mileage improvement gadgets then they’ll be in more trouble because who can afford to buy them?
In a free market, people buy what they think is the best product, and if for many that product is foreign-made then so be it. But, why they (American car companies) aren’t offering a better line of products is something I don’t understand. It’s almost as if they expect to stay in business just because they’re there.
I’d be on board if they’d start making ’57 Chevys and ’68 Mustangs again.

d of WV:
I am no union worker; I am the daughter of a former GM manager. Manager, not executive. I know first hand how difficult the unions were to deal with in the 70′s and 80′s but those days are LONG gone…My point is that UAW workers are paid a comparable wage to other auto workers in the US and are given a bum rap. As for bailing out other failing industries we do that every day; the Republicans simply pick and chose who to help. You think an oil company would be allowed to go belly up? The simple fact is that the sheer number of people who would be personally impacted by the lose of the auto companies is astromomical. Unlike the failure of your local Burger King. That is sheer fact, and my personal bias-and I admit that I have one-has nothing to do with it.

Andrew………I am not against a bail out….what I am against is OUR gov’t handing over 34 billion dollars to the Big 3 without any strings attached….there are NO concessions from the UAW, who is the MAJOR reason why the Big 3 are going down and sinking fast. GM UAW worker makes $75 an hour—$25 in wages and $50 in benefits. Toyota worker makes $40 an hour—-$25 in wages and $15 in benefits. Do the math…75-40= $35 an hour difference in pay between GM & Toyota..$35 X 40 hours X 52 weeks x 150,000 UAW workers = 10.5 BILLION DOLLARS difference in pay between a GM & Toyota worker for ONE YEAR….in the 2007 Contract that the UAW received on Sept. 26,2007, The UAW President Gettlefinger negociated the “JOB BANK PROGRAM” which guarantees NEARLY FULL wages & benefits for worker who lose their jobs due to automation or plant closure…….They get paid up to a year if they are unemployed…UAW worker gets free child care, 68 paid holidays over the next 4 years…that is 12 paid holidays a year. How many paid holidays do you get in a year? 9 or 10 which is the standard in the REAL NON union world…. All these benefits/perks for the UAW worker cost money and where is the company going to get the money to pay for ALL their PERKS…US the hard working tax payers…sorry but I only get 9 paid holidays, and my employer pays for my health insurance. My employer doesn’t pay for my spouse & or my kids to be on my insurance plan like GM does for the UAW worker….

Ok, you absolutely HAVE to have the 4WD SUV. Do you want an $7,000.00 used Toyata 4Runner with 150,000 miles or a new $42,000.00 Yukon (you have to pay for your choice). Oh, both vehicles will have equal longevity.
Let’s vote.

Just to add to the thought for the dummies to understand. European and Japanese car makers made smaller and more efficient vehicles because that is what people wanted. They wanted them because gas was expensive in their countries due to high government taxes on gas. In the good old US of A, could a government put a big tax on gas? No way, it is after all, AMERICA where you better not tax me. It’s my money. And I can buy big cars and trucks because this is America! Well, how did that work out for you?

The UAW is a scam. It is a system designed to steal money from companies and shareholders. It turned a powerhouse of American ingenuity and turned it into a welfare system for democrat voters. Sure, you hate capitalism except when you steal from it.

These big3 CEOs figured out a way to spend an additional $9B while they drove in their hybrids?? Hybrids that are about 10yrs behind the Prius??
And they blame the whole sorry state of affairs on the ecomony? Oh please! spare us the condescension and take some ownership of your screw-ups.
No bailout without a top-level housecleaning at these companies.

D of WV *** Obama never voted on anything—– The only vote he knows is “Present”!

If the UAW and other unions go down, the Republican party goes down and ceases being a political party in the U.S.
You will create a backlash of those “Reagan Republicans” against the GOP because they will be broke, jobless, and wondering why the GOP sold them out.
They will get to see the real GOP for what it is…a corporate lackey solely interested in what’s good for business instead of people. They will wake from their slumber after all these years and return to the Democratic party. Ohio will go the way of California and never vote for another Republican again. You can say the same for the entire Mid-West. The Southwest is already trending the Dem’s way. The Northeast is gone for good. The Southeast is also trending towards Democrats.
Pretty soon the GOP will only have 2 or 3 states in the South and Idaho, Utah, Kansas, and Oklahoma to lie to. You can’t have a political party if you’re only competitive in a handful of states.
Way to go Republicans. You’ve ruined your own party by selling out the common man.

The dems support global warming nonsense and now can’t deal with the results.

You people seem to forget a few things:
1. The auto industry helped build this country to where it is now and helped win a WWII. The auto industry was there for us and we owe them a loan.
2. Fixing the economy by letting millions lose jobs? Wrong answer. We need to repair the manufacturing industry in this country and the auto industry is the way to start fixing things.
3. ITS A LOAN! WE THE TAXPAYERS WILL MAKE MONEY BY LOANING THEM MONEY! We gave them money before and they paid it back.
4. If you want better cars and a voice in the direction the industry goes, you loan them money with caveats. Not giving them money means they will owe us nothing after they restructure.
5. Filing bankruptcy will allow the Big 3 to DUMP their pensions and money they owe to their workers, sending the economy into a death spiral. And WE will have to cover those plans
6. The average UAW makes $28 an hour, not $80–thats a inflated number the Big 3 use because theyre adding in pensions and other health benefits they owe to all their workers past and present.

It’s time to nationalize the Big 3, and put them to work building green transportation vehicles – cars, mass transit buses, trains, etc.

I say help out the big three BUT attach some strict strings…for instance give them five years to develop cars that get over 100 mpg.
The thought of just bailing out the auto industry makes me cringe, but I think this is an incredible and unprecedented opportunity to force their hand and steer them down a path that is in our nations interest (get off oil, cleaner air, better auto products).

Have an employee owned company.
Give each employee half of their present salary in stock
Let them decide who they want to lead the company.
If they work hard and make the right decisions they will reap the rewards and see their stock skyrocket.
If they bicker and do nothing they will suffer the consequenses.

About time the Dems got off their dead arses and decided to do something positive. The ramifications of the Big 3 going down are unthinkable. This would only hasten the burgeoning 3rd world economy that the Republicans have brought about thru deregulation.

Aaron: What do you do if they do not build a car that gets 100 mpg in 5 years? What do you do if people do not buy whatever car they make?

I think the problem is a lot deeper than people here realize and I don’t feel I have enough information to make the final decision that so many here are quick to make.
The car industry, while making many mistakes over the years, seems to be in the current “Crisis” because nobody can afford to buy a car now, or get credit to buy a car now. Maybe we have the Wall Street fiasco to blame for that and not just the auto industry?
IF we are to bail out Wall Street and in a completely ineffective way so far, why is the Auto industry not worthy?
Paulson has changed his mind so many times on how to attack the Wall Street problem, it’s obvious no one in Washington has a clue what they are doing. It seems a little senseless to point fingers at the Democrats when both parties are clearly to blame for both of these problems.
The real problem seems to me to be FAILURE TO WORK TOGETHER FOR THE COMMON GOOD. The parties are so quick to draw lines and stand opposed rather than search out common ground and stand together. AND THAT IS BOTH PARTIES FAULT.
I’d like us to stop trying to assess blame and get to the root of these problems and work together rather than try to divide the country in camps and hurl insults at each other.
Can we try that for a at least 90 days and see if it helps?

OK, for an idea, how about a bailout that is not given to the autocompanies but to consumers. Give $5K to consumers that purchase a new car from a dealer that offers $2K discount on cars over 25MPG. Consumers choose the make model they want, American or not.

I wish we wouldn’t bail them out , then the idiots on this site would once and for all see what a real recession/depression looks like. You people are fools,
probably the same people attacking universal health care that I wish would get some horrible disease and run out of money only to end up getting dumped on the streets of Los Angeles
wow this is amazing

The UAW and the Big 3 describe their economic importance to the USA as so large that they literally run the country.In other words, they are the rulers – we are the beholden!If so, how did we get into this spot? Or is it a lie? I think the latter. If they can bluff the citizens into believing this then we deserve what they will give us.
Without them the hole they will leave in our ecomomy will fill quickly and easily by others – and maybe Detroit and similar cities in disastrous straits will become the”shining cities on the hill” again.

My information on Phil Gramm did not come from left wing blogs. It came first from conservative economists and, after I saw what had happened, it was fleshed out by old fashioned research. There is a reason regulations are needed for most industries. Greed gets out of control and in the name of profit, corners are cut on safety and too many risks are taken with money management. Just as there are traffic laws and laws on our behavior, i.e stealing, assault, etc., there are regulations on industry so they won’t screw the public. And, speaking of anti regulation politicians, was it McCain who said he wanted to deregulate the health care industry just like Republicans deregulated the financial industry? I really admire McCain, but he spent too much time with the Phil Gramms of the world! After the Keating 5 scandal he should have learned.

Why should the taxpayers pay for the bad business decisions of the automakers? I’ve not learned anything from business school that says, “When your business fails, charge the taxpayers for it.” What I learned is that when a business fails, the owner suffers the loss.
The government will be better off spending the money for infrastructure projects that will provide work for those who will lose their jobs in the auto industry, instead of wasting it on cars that people won’t buy. At least, the people will benefit from the new roads and bridges that will be constructed.

55Mariposa said, in part:
“the “JOB BANK PROGRAM” which guarantees NEARLY FULL wages & benefits for worker who lose their jobs due to automation or plant closure…”
Isn’t this kind of like what CEOs, CFOs, sports coaches, sports players, etc., etc., etc. get if they’re fired or cut or injured? I don’t agree with all of the “perks” that UAW members are getting, but the UAW has already made concessions and, as I understand it, is willing to make more. And at the end of the day, when an employee has put in 40 years of his/her life on a factory floor, is there any reason why he shouldn’t have a decent pension to live on?
My husband is a retired union carpenter. During his working years, he made a decent living, but he worked his a$$ off. During his career, he got NO (that’s right, NO) paid holidays (you don’t work, you don’t get paid); he got NO paid vacation (if we took a vacation, it was on our dime…no pay); he got NO paid sick days (again, no work gets you no pay). We did get health insurance paid, but now that he’s retired, we buy it ourselves. He DOES have an adequate pension – but he earned it.
The UAW is NOT the boogey-man in this whole thing. But it’s the UAW members that will be hurting the most if our government lets them go belly-up. The guys at the top, who did this, will (as always) come out smelling like a rose. We MUST save our auto industry.

First off let me remind the majority of the low information posters who are well who else NeoCons. This is not a bail out but a loan. Also, if the big 3 go down it will create a economic catastrophic event not scene since the great depression. It will have a ripple effect that would have unconscionable consequences. Beginning at the Auto Plant working its way through the supplier networks, to the Diners who supply meals for the shift workers, to the coffee stands across the street to the office supply store around the corner. For those of you who think you would be safe cause you live outside the rust belt are sadly mistaken.

Many don’t work for the auto industry and the industries we work in never got bailouts.
Why the Big 3 so special? Nobody else making cars in this country? At least the transplants are using American suppliers,the Big 3 don’t even do much of that anymore because of the UAW costs.
American made cars aren’t made in America, they are only assembled here.
I say good riddance to all involved. You did it to yourselves, not deregulation (which Bush hasn’t deregulated anything), not the housing crisis (which was brought on by the GSE’s), and certainly not Iraq.
You did this to yourselves and YOU need to bailout yourself, not me.

Margaret — there is also a huge Toyota facility in Kentucky as well!

I usually blog about biking, but my Ford just died while the auto bailout has been in the news. I decided not to buy another one, the taxpayer bailout will be giving enough of my money to the big three. See how I foudn a way to get a reliable american car at http://bicyclespokesman.com/wheres-my-auto-bailout/

Bad mouthing Bush is a waste of time
his record speaks for itself
bailout keep on dreaming……

Polls show 60% of America is against the bailout for Ford, GM, and Chrysler. Unless 60% of America is Republican, stop putting the blame on them. Didn’t Obama get 52% of the vote? that means 8% of Democrats must hate America too.
Chapter 11 is the only way.

Way to go Dems; time to stand up to this idiot who probably still thinks “the fundamentals of the economy are still strong.”

This bailout will go through, it’ll just come after Obama becomes President. You idiot Republicans will think you have won something and scream about the Dems giving away all this money and the public has spoken, blah, blah, blah.
Everyone will laugh at you given your dismissal economic record of the past 8 years.
Then we Democrats will get all the credit for having saved the American auto industry. MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, whose jobs will be saved, will favor the Democrats for a generation or more (kind of like what happened after the Great Depression with Roosevelt).
You Republicans won’t win Michigan, Pennsylvania, OHIO, Missouri and all those other midwestern states again. Thus you’ll never win another national election in our lifetime.
You people are far and away the dumbest SOB’s on Planet Earth. Honestly. That’s no joke. Like the saying goes: you would honestly cut off your nose just to spite your face.
Enjoy opposition, you’ll be there for a while.

“Why not give everybody in America a $5000.00 car credit to use with only American car makers? At least we would get some good out of the deal and it would help auto makers too? No, that makes too much sense.”
Because . . . that would help US. Can’t have that. Have to have all the spoils go to cronies. Which in the Democrats case, include the unions.

“I’m carrying so much pork [home to Texas] I’m beginning to get trichinosis.”

The United States is short step away from economic depression, a thing so bad that any one of us would look back upon today from next year and wish we had the chance to give the Big 3 ten times as much money.
We cannot let those jobs go under. If those jobs are lost it will bring us all down.
You who say you would never bail them out will wish a year from now that you could go back in time and shine those executive’s shoes and fetch them drinks if it could stop the hell this country has become because we didn’t stop the depression – now! while we have the chance.
These times, now, these economic times are different than all others that we can imagine – it is as bad as it can possibly get – now.
We don’t even have time to argue. We have to do, or to support, every effort to stop an economic depression now! – or we will have one.

Don’t believe everything you hear on the news little bo sheeps. There is a whole lot more at stake than Ford, GM & Chisler. The disasterous past 8 years is right on Republican’s sagging shoulders. Don’t infect the real world with your idiocy anymore. Shut up and watch how adults handle government

I wonder what a Toyota will cost when GM, Ford and Chrysler are gone?

Ian: There are other car companies!

d of WV:
I moved to Kentucky from Michigan; I LOVE Michigan! It is a wonderful state with intelligent, open-minded people and I wish I could still live there. I was there a few weeks ago, visiting my old home in Oakland County and the whole state looks (and feels) like a bomb went off there…it is heartbreaking. Kentucky has nothing on the states of Ohio (where I actually grew up) and Michigan. It is a provincial state filled with a lot of stupid people and I live in the most liberal part of the state. Don’t try and give me this red state song-and dance; people here almost never have decent insurance (unless they work for the University or the state) and feel lucky to make $12/hr. I made more than that working a part time job at Banana Republic 10 years ago in Michigan! The South is a hellhole.

budget hawk Phil Graham — let me help you, my freezer is empty!

Worker Rob: You blame Bush. He is effectively gone. Move on to deal with the current problem. Do not continue to run agaisnt Bush. The election is over. Let the Congress vote for a bailout. The house is controleld by Democrats. Let them vote. The Senate is controlled by the Democrats (one less vote since Obama resigned).

“Remember the families.” “What about the workers and our jobs.”
Cry me a river.
Those families with their big paychecks and lovely benefits packages don’t care one bit about MY family.
Why should we go into debt as a country so others can live better than we do?
Get another job and live like the rest of us, how about. Insecurity and all.

All of you who oppose the Auto bailout and whine and cry about how terrible Congress is and how we have to get rid of Congress and the Dems. Just remember when you voted for the Republicans in 01 and 04 you voted for financial policies that have placed us where we are now. You did this to yourselves. The Republican tax cuts, wars, lack of regulation, giving preference to corporations has brought this nation to it knees. Dont blame the workers. Its Republican greed that has done it. Workers for the big 3 dont get paid anymore than those who work for the foreign companies. Shame on you who voted for Bush and his ilk. Just go Away and let the Dems try to get this nation back on track, you guys have had your day and you blew it.

This should come out of the TARP money. We don’t have any additional money, and we can’t afford to let them fail right now. It’s part of the economic recovery package.
Good for the dems.

Frederick MIchael, if you exchange “unable” with the intended meaning ‘unwilling’, it depicts the passive aggressive whines and threats that are the HALLMARK of the Democratic party perfectly.

Stop the hysterics, Chapter 11 is not that big a deal. Airlines do it and come back stronger, so can Detroit.

Bailout or not ………
100 year Recession… what then?

The $75 an hour figure is total bull. It’s arrived at by taking all wages to today’s workers together with all benefits to retired workers then dividing that figure only by the number of today’s workers. In reality auto workers average closer to $28 an hour with maybe $38 including benefits, let’s even say 40 and change, not even close to the bogus $75 an hour figure.
Once again the American working majority is being bamboozled into thinking workers are the enemy. This is the only country on earth where workering stiffs are STUPID enough to believe that the party of the power and wealth elite, the GOP, is their best buddy and fellow working stiffs are to blame for all their problems. Pathetic.
Whatever you think of the bailout the American auto worker is not the bad guy here and if we had universal health care, like everyone else, we’d have no trouble being competitive. That is if the CEOs weren’t idiots or in league with the oil industry to keep us all using as much gas as possible. Did anyone complain about our tax dollars being spent in tax breaks for people buying huge SUVs? Nope.
We’d also have higher quality healthcare for lower cost instead of a third world infant mortality rate with the world’s highest health care cost.
Of course we actually DO have universal healthcare. It’s called the ER and it’s the least efficient most expensive form of healthcare in the world and we are ALL already paying for it. So if you are against universal health care because you don’t want to pay other people’s health care costs, too late. You already do . It just costs WAY more than in any other modern industialized country. And if you buy the GOP spin that it’s all the workers’ fault you’re just hopelessly gullible,

OMG! Seriously? The Dems have been such a pathetic lot of ineffectual wusses for so many years, who knew that they actually had it in them to fight with fire? Today Barney Frank was all crying and whining that Obama won’t step up and take a stand on some issues to help them out. Well, maybe like a Father who’s got to give a kid space to grow up and stand on his own two feet, the Dems in Congress need to find their own voice and power to finally stand their ground with this now Lamest-Ever-Duck. It’s time for the Dems in Congress to grow up and act like a group of adults who can take responsibility and make wise choices to help get this nation back on track again. Geez… it’s about freakin’ time, people.

While I do not like what the US automakers have done to the industry, we must save the industry. 4 million additional people on the street looking for jobs is not acceptable. We have to save what we can of those jobs.
One thing for sure, whatever the Republicans are saying about it is a baldface lie. Do you think they are suddenly starting to tell the truth about anything because they lost the election? LOL

As the comic Ron White said:
“you can’t fix stupid”
We ALL made this happen, not just Wall Street, Banks, Auto industry, Pharma, …
We are paying for what we refused to pay for up to now.
In the book “Hot, Flat, Crowded” Tom thinks we have a choice; otherwise we will become a BANANA republic. Up to now we were governed by a junta military govt that promised lower taxes and higher standard of living.
Compared to any EU country, we probably could not qualify economically to join them. Sad.

Sophia…everone pays roughly 8% in fed’l taxes, your employer pays the other 8%. Then you have 10-15% taken out for income taxes.. Everyone roughly has 20 to 25% taken out of their gross pay for taxes, social security etc.
I don’t think the UAW worker has more taxes taken out of their pay check than anyone else that works. How much does the UAW worker pay the union in dues?????

Dan: Obama had a view on a lot of things during the campaign. Let him stand up and be counted now. is he for or against the bailout.

d f WV:
Guess what? Life before this NATIONAL calamity that Bush and the Republicans have inflicted on us was better and I would go back to my nice job at Ford with my part time job at Banana if I could. That is the point; you make some smart ass comment about going back as if it is some joke. Life as most-at least many- Americans knew it is gone, or going away. I’m sure you have some crack to make about why you shouldn’t have to subsidize the bailout of other people’s livelihoods and pensions but you are ignoring the main point. I am in my 40′s and I have always believed, like most Americans, that there were real opportunities for a better life and that things would always get better. And generally, things did get better. Until Bush came along. He has literally destroyed the American dream. He did not destroy the auto companies; they certainly bear some of the blame. But he is certainly responsible for the economic collapse that was built on the back of excessive deregulation and laissez faire policies. We may never be able to live in real affluence and comfort again. And the response and attitudes of ignorant, jealous people who live in areas that have never experienced real economic security and opportunity is disgusting. Just because you may never have lived outside of a holler doesn’t mean that we should all have to live like that.

Assisting the Big 3 at this of crisis is much more of a Main Street issue than bailing out Wall Street. As much as I dislike government intervention, the fact that 1 out of every 10 jobs is linked to the auto industry means that if the Big 3 go under, then this recession we are experiencing is almost certain to enter into a depression. Let’s not forget that Big 3 employees are consumers too, so if they lose their jobs, the other economies — food, retail, entertainment, etc. — that depend on spending will also suffer. More restaurants will close. Retail shops will suffer. Recreation and the travel industry will be devastated. More jobs will be lost and there will be a domino effect. For once, the old adage here is true: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

RepubliCONNS HATE the American Auto Industry because they HATE the idea of any working man getting a fair shake. It’s as simple as that and it’s always been that way. If auto workers were living in shacks and eating out of dumpsters like they do in Mexico – RepubliCONNS would be all for saving their jobs. But because American autoworkers have a strong union and they are a powerful voice in American politics – they have to be humbled and driven into the street.
RepubliCONNS HATE the Middle Class – always have, always will.

d of wv – It is irrelevant what Obama said during the campaign. He isn’t President until January 20th, so his views don’t count on something that it is up to President Bush to rule on. If Bush wants his opinion on it, he can call him (which I believe he has done). Other than that, Obama has nothing to say about it. He isn’t even the official President-Elect yet.

Bush should go on National TV tomorrow night and tell the American people that he will sign any bill on the Auto bailout presented to him, that has been passed by the Democratic Majority Congress, lead by Pelosi and Reid.
Result: 2010 Republican Congressional LANDSLIDE!

Kirsten……..obviously you don’t know NANCY PELOSI…..who flys back to California every weekend on a private jet….and that is the truth….

Wake up folks. Its too late for finger pointing and conspiracy theorists. If the auto industry folds, the soup lines will be longer than in the 1930s depression. This time the hungry may be carrying glocks. Its time to pull together or go down together. The alternative is that the USA will be doomed to third-world status with no chance of recovery & you won’t be able to pronounce the name of your car, assuming you have one.

Definitely tell Paulsen to use some of the $700 billion for these guys. Oh, and while we’re at it, how about a full accounting disclosure of where all of the spent money has gone, and what the companies who received the aid did with it?
Got an answer for that one Hank?

people just don’t get, are the automobile companies to blame? sure. but our economy is in such dire condition right now, that if the big three fail, the amount of unemployed people will devastate the economy. There are so many companies that do business for and with the auto companies, they would all probably go out of business as well. These are the same people who don’t want to bailout homeowners, and the continual foreclosure of properties is a major reason the economy can’t get back on track. Its the big picture we have to think about, The auto companies have done a lot of this to themselves but
the country can’t afford to have more unemployeed people right now

The narrow, greedy viewpoints of many of these postings is sickening and disturbing.
The fact the administration and the Fed can toss AIG a $180,000,000,000 loan to cover their stupid bets without batting an eye just so we do not upset the Chinese while allowing industrial collapse of this country, is virtually criminal and patently stupid. The domestic auto companies are not the ones who de-regulated our financial system and turned it into the world’s biggest casino. They are not the ones who wrote the mounds of bad mortgage paper that have imperiled this economy. They are not the ones whose appetites for big, fat SUV’s and 2 hour commutes drove up the demand for oil. They are not the ones who speculated on it’s price and caused it to skyrocket by rattling their sabers in the Mideast. They simply were not prepared when the whole silly exercise finally turned, and Americans discovered they did not have any money left. They are and will continue to be viable businesses that produce useful things unlike all of the geniuses on Wall Street who think they can create wealth out of greed and thin air. The bilious criticism they are getting is totally misdirected and not unlike the anger of greedy, selfish children.
Remember, the Auto industry created the middle class in this country. If our new paradigm of corporate success is Wall Mart rather than GM, then we will ALL be soon living in trailers with no health care wondering how to buy food and pay our bills… and when our currency finally collapses, we will not even be able to afford any shiny crap from China!
We can only build our way out of this mess and US automakers must play a key role in developing new, green vehicles that we will sell here and all over the world. Do not forget, our automakers HAVE been successful in getting foreign market share in developing countries and taxes from their future profits will go into OUR pockets. They suffer in this country because we have tilted OUR playing field against US! A big part of this are their legacy costs that feed OUR bloated heath care system. This is something that, along with fair trade legislation, the next administration must fix. In the mean time, their collapse would be bad; I mean “crossing-the-streams” bad!
Remember, the automakers and their congressional supporters are seeking a bridge loan that will enable them to avoid an extinction level event. Their collapse will domino and take this whole Country down to a place it has not seen since the 1930′s. This is not a handout and having them go under is uglier than we can imagine and will affect everyone in this country for generations.

Reading the reaction from these right wingers is pretty scary. They’d save any banker any day but working people no way. Frankly we don’t need a third party as one suggested we need to split the country in two one side with the narrow minded mean spirited selfish right and the other with the rest of us who actually care about others. The fact is the money has already been passed by congress to treasury and should be used to help our auto industry not just the banks and force them to restructure. What we should not do is print more money for bailouts. All new spending should be for infrastructure and jobs. Period end of story. To say the democrats have done nothing since 06 is total crap, they basically stopped the insane right wing agenda. Just that is a miracle! All you people seem not to want to be involved in our democratic process and hate it so much, what is it you want? A strong man. That is what the germans and Italian were like in the 30′s, sick of democracy (too lazy really to do the work) and what they got were dictators. So if you love dictators so much, move out of this great democratic country. And people please learn to be a little more civil, I know it is hard for you but just give it a shot. You are not helping your country or yourself much.

Hey P. Diddy, a lot of college educated people work for the auto industry. Your trite argument about creating your own future is just a bunch of sanctimonious garbage. Where will an engineering degree get you when there is no one left to hire you? When there is no investment capital available to fund your new venture? When we all have college degrees what value do you think they will have? Most bank tellers have a 4 year degree. For $12 an hour. We live in an interconnected society and this crap about creating your own destiny is meaningless if you don’t have a strong, stable infrastructure to support it.

If GM, Ford, etc. go under we’ll be in a depression within six months.
The loss of jobs, pensions, manufacturing, connected industries and overall effect on the economy will touch everybody in some way, shape or form.
Hide and watch.

Everyone who is against bailing out the auto industry thinks they have nothing to lose if the auto industry fails. I wonder how long it would take to change their tune if they worked for the auto industry and it was the only show in town. I don’t think auto CEU’s should be bailed out and wouldn’t lose out at least directly if they fail but I don’t want to see my neighbor have to lose his job either. Hold management responsible, make them pay it back, force them to build better vehicles but please go light on the political Dem/Rep rhetoric and look at it through a more objecyive lens. The next industry to go belly up may be yours. “it’s a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it’s a depression when you lose your own” – Harry S. Truman

why is it that the crooks who run the big banks and insurance companies, can just waltz in and get billions, no questions asked, and the auto companies are made to jump through all kinds of hoops? I will tell you why, because you are talking white collar vs. blue collar, I don’t know if you people who say no bailout for the auto companies realize it, but if they go, the economic crisis will get worse then it is already. Finally, why is it that the banks who are supposed to make loans are restricting consumer credit, this is hurting everyone, of course the fat cats dont care, they already have theirs.

Wow, the density of the posts here is astounding. Do any of you republicans realize that your “president” is still in charge? The dems wont be in charge until Jan 20, then they will take the blame for everything. As it now stands the republicans will take all the blame for leaving the country to fail. The dems are playing the game to win, and to help the many thousands. Forcing shrub’s hand will reinforce the appearance that he couldn’t care less about the middle class or the country, it’s a win-win for the dems. After all the epic fail of the current administration good luck getting a president elected.

Worker Rob: What is the billnumber of the last piece of legislation that was filbustered in teh Senate? Waht was the date? i bet you do not know it. You say they are filbustering everything, but I bet you have no facts. None. Now Bush might veto it. But lets have the hosue and Senate vote on it and see what the vote is. I suspect that neither the Hosue nor Senate will pass it. So the Democrats do not wish to vote on it becasue htey do not wish to shwo it will fail. But in aobut 40 days they will ahve to take some action one way or the other. So even if it fails now we willhave a better udnerstanding of the faults of the proposed legislation and if it passes–great it is donw and we can move on to other things. By the way if the bailout goes forward the the big three are sucessufl and the otehr car companies in the US lsoe buisness and those US workers and US taxpayers are laid off hwo do you wish to help them. Give them a bailout. I mean you would nto stop with jsut the big three workers woudl you?

Mary: “The solution for restructuring a company whose corporate leaders have let it go is called Chapter 11.”
Which includes walking away from pensions, insurance, unions and any form of obligation to the workforce, regardless of their length of tenure.
Call a friend who worked for TWA or United Airlines and ask them about what happened to their pensions.

Right now we spend 10 billion a month in Iraq.
The money the auto industry wants is about 10 -15 weeks of THAT investment.

Margaret – My wife worked for TWA for 32 years and collects a pension of $600 a month, versus the $3,000 she should be collecting.
American snatched them up and walked away from all obligations.
There are 1,000′s or people who worked for United for comparable periods who get nothing.
I think 99% of this is really nothing more than a form of union busting and has nothing to do with whether they’ll get the bailout…which, by the way…they will.

WVA Hillbilly asks: “Worker Rob: What is the billnumber of the last piece of legislation that was filbustered in teh Senate? Waht was the date?”
12/3/08 The last thing a RepubliCONN filibustered was only lifted today. For months now, RepubliCONNS (Jim Bunning of Kentucky) have put a hold on the confirmation of an inspector general for the $700 billion TARP fund. For months that criminal errand boy from Goldman Sachs – Paulson – has been doling hundreds of billions of dollars out to his co-conspirators on Wall Street with absolutely NO OVERSIGHT? Why? Because that’s the way the RepubliCONNS wanted it, and they filibuster EVERYTHING to get what they want.

Mr. Look, don’t forget those of us who have lost large percentages of $$ in retirement accounts linked to the state of the stock market. We’re not all current American workers.

Worker Rob: Putting a hold on an appointment is not a filbuster. Study up on how your government works. You do not put holds on legislation. Two different things.

“Worker Rob: Putting a hold on an appointment is not a filbuster.”
It certainly IS a filibuster. That’s the way filibusters work. WAKE UP – It’s not “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington” anymore. All that anyone has to do in the Senate is to say they want to put a hold on something, and then it takes 60 votes to take the hold off. They don’t even have to publicly disclose who it is. That’s the way filibusterers work in the Senate. And that’s what RepubliCONNS have been doing with EVERTHING. And that’s why the public voted eight more of them out last election.

Hey Alana, you don’t think you “are quite that giving?” I think it is safe to say that you are a selfish, vindictive person. Why should you pay to help support others in need? Why should you concern yourself with the welfare of others? This is the kind of viewpoint and argument that sickens and frightens me. This isn’t about you having to invest your measly tax dollars to support the “lavish” lifestyles of union workers. This is about understanding that many millions of people will be severely hurt by the actions of our government, the executives of the companies they work for and by the economic tidal wave that is engulfing the whole world. And if you think you won’t be paying more in taxes to pay for their unemployment insurance, Medicaid expenses and so on then you need to think again. The cost to you and every other taxpayer will be much greater than the cost of the proposed bailout. But I would guess that you think those fat and happy union workers should be thrown out on the streets!

No, Margaret, I’m not so giving as to put my children’s future in hock so that some workers can enjoy good wages and benefits and security while the rest of us go without.
Mind you, the arguments about the collapse of the economy do appeal to me. But if you consider it “selfish” because I don’t want to pay so that other people can enjoy higher wages, benefits, and security than the rest of us, well, count me “selfish.”
I’ll count you as “not selfish” when you turn over some of your paycheck to my family.

The ignorance of many of the above posters is breathtaking. These expeditures will increase the national debt, but in the short run it will not matter to us–you will not notice it if you are “middle class.” In the long run the recovery will enable a shift in focus toward reduction of the great national debt. But if the clueless right wing prevails, and we lose the manufacturing capability represented by the “Detroit 3,” millions of people will suffer in inumerable ways for years to come. We must let Keynesian economics work; it’s our only chance as a nation. The 19th century thinking of the right has helped to get us in this fix, and it most certainly offers no rational solutions for getting us out of trouble.

Margaret,
Why not pay the union workers $1million/hour and give each of them a shovel, have half of them dig a hole in the ground and the other fill the hole back up?
They cars that they are building have about as much economic value as the holes in the ground, as they pile up unsold in dealer lots and ports. At least, hole digging will use up less natural resources than piling up unsold cars and cause less pollution.
See, higher living standard doesn’t come from government printing up paper money. Higher living standards have to come from making goods and services that people are willing to buy. All government money printing can accomplish is taking food and medicine from someone else to give it to a person who is not making anything useful. Government bureacrats are not making food and they are not medicaal doctors. Someone somewhere in the real economy has to deliver those services. The more workers are tied up making unwanted goods, like those big-three branded cars, the less people are out there doing real much needed work turning out things like food and medical services. Time for retraining. That’s what economic downturns are for. For once, Americans are living a less lavish life, therefore much of the industries catering to lavish life style, like those making giagantic SUV’s, have to cut back and use resources more efficiently; that’s a good thing. Only politicians would get in the way of that.

the average u.a.w. worker makes $28 per hour,not$80.the u.a.w. has made concessions;two tiered pay scale,take over pension plan and is ready to take more cuts.unions are the only reason working people have any reasonable standard of living in this robber baron society.bush 1 should use tarp $ to loan automakers,more later if needed

JonggMaster,
The Big-3 do not at all represent the manufacturing prowess of the US. In fact, the most up-to-date plants that the Big-3′s have are in Canada, Brazil and China. The most up-to-date auto manufacturing plants in the US are those turning out Toyota’s, Honda’s, BMW’s, and etc.. The most productive manufacturing plants in the US are those owned by the likes of Intel and Boeing. The bailout proposal is in essence to rob from all those productive American manufacturers and their workers in order to reward the abject failures that the Big-3 plants are. How is that going to improve the manufacturing base in the US?
Keynesian economics never worked in real life. Hitler did not pull German economy out of the Great Depresison by building the Autobahn, nor did FDR with his myriads of programs. Keynes’ invention of “Aggregate Demand” flies in the face of Economics (the study of efficient allocation of limited resources) because “aggregate” means undifferentiated. That’s where you find a battleship is the equal of 1000 cars, for GDP and for “Aggregate Demand” . . . whereas everyone ever engaged in real life knows that they are not the same, nor is sending millions of young men to die half a world away a desirable solution for unemployment . . . a policy that both Hitler and FDR embarked on after their Keynesian economic policies failed.

Margaret, what makes you think I’m a republican? And what makes you think I haven’t reached a reasonable standard of living?
You haven’t subsidized me one bit, so no need to give yourself airs.
In fact, I’ve subsidized them – I’ve bought Ford cars! Because I always wanted to buy American, and help American workers. (Tried to get my husband to, too!)
My point is in regards to all the crying in this thread about how we should all save their jobs.
(Not about the economic implications of not doing so – there, one has something of an argument.)
My point is there are a whole lot of working Americans out there – including me and mine – who aren’t getting bail-outs, loans, or anything else. And won’t.
It is not incumbent on me or anyone else to make sure any of these particular individuals retain their particular jobs, benefits, or security. I have no moral imperative to make sure that someone else has an easier life than the rest of us.
Who’s looking after our jobs, retirement, benefits, and security? Or is it that we just don’t count?
And how is it “selfish” of me not to want others bailed out while we are not?
I’m not working to “lower the standards of living” of auto workers. But neither am I working to raise them.
Asking me to work for auto workers to maintain their standard of living is a bit outre. That was my point.
After all, no one is doing it for the rest of us. We just get the bill.
National economic considerations aside, my point was that one shouldn’t make sympathy plays to people who face the same issues as the auto workers, expecting them to put auto workers’ interests above their own.
Not to mention a lot of people don’t think the bail-outs (or loans) are in the national interest, either.

bjs said:
Do you all realize the effect of these 3 liquidating? Try $35 Billion in unemployment claims for starters. There are whole towns and cities in California who live and die by Nissan truck plants… yes, Chrysler manufactures Nissan trucks in California. They make parts and components in rural towns ALL across America, oh and don’t forget the VW routen minivan that is manufactured in the US by Chrysler, and that Mercedes plant in Alabama? Gone too.
Do your friggin homework. You’re talking about a depression if these 3 fail, and that’s just for starters.
Stab said:
I say “loan” them the money with the following must meet objectives:
1. Reduce Upper management by 50%
2. Eliminate all Executive bonuses.
3. All three automakers must hire a combined 20,000 new employeees.
4. Models built in foriegn countries cannot be sold in the US.
5. All parts for US made autos must be built in the US.
6. MPG standards will be 25-35 MPG with exception to trucks which will need to meet 20-25 MPG.
I say they both have it nailed. Except for instead of reducing upper management by 50%–Fire all their asses and put in new blood. THEN LET’S HAVE SOME FREAKIN’ OVERSIGHT!!
Why should the American public give money to Paulson with WITH NO OVERSIGHT to bail out the greedheads on Wall Street WITH NO OVERSIGHT and let the middle class workers of the Auto Industry go down the toilet? Those “lavish salaries and benefits” you speak of built the American middle class, (and BTW, the average hourly salary for union auto workers today is $28 plus benefits). In the days when a union job was a nation builder, a UAW worker could support his or her family while the spouse stayed home to raise the kids, buy a house, send their kids to college and put money away for their retirement so they wouldn’t have to eat cat food and be a burden on society–which is what most of us might have to do now. WAKE UP PEOPLE! The price we will pay if the Big 3 (regardless of their stupidity)go down the tubes will be harsh and lasting. There are too many intertwined businesses connected to them–it would be devastating to the country and make the Great Depression look like a birdwalk. Stop listening to the Republican talking points and start thinking with your brains. It’s about time the Congress quit bailing out the upper class nitwits in the banking and finance industry and started thinking about the blue collar workers who made this country great.

njdunlap,
The biggest chunk of UAW labor cost is not direct pay but benefits and legacy cost. The whole benefit package was negatiated in the 50′s as a way to keep out smaller competitions to GM . . . yes, imagine that, two monopolists (GM and UAW) getting together to squeeze out competitors. The result was a pyramid scheme that pre-supposes ever increasing GM volume and UAW head count. The scheme stopped working in the last two decades because UAW membership is shrinking . . . less and less current workers are supporting more and more retirees, and medical cost is spiralling out of control because of government-sanctioned medical monopolies and sky-is-the-limit third-party pay schemes. Bankruptcy and reorganization of those unsustainable schemes is the only opportunity we have before our whole society is bankrupt.
BTW, productivity through competition is the reason behind higher standards of living. Not central planning. The soviets claimed for decades that their workers had higher take-home pay than American counterparts, thanks to their artificially set ruble exchange rate. The reality was that the Lada cars that they were building in the 80′s, having the same design from the 50′s, were worth less than the metal and leather that went into making them. The factories were in reality destroyers of wealth not creators of wealth. The Big-3 plants are approaching that precedence with their sea of unsold cars, and exploding losses.
Also, the era of “Robber Barons” of the late 19th and early 20th century saw the fastest rate of improvement in standards of living in America, at about 4% per capita annual growth rate, measured in hard currency terms (the currency in the US until 1913). US currency ceased to be hard currency after 1933, so the unit of count became suspect for direct comparison. In terms of cars and houses, the per capita economic growth rate between 1929 and 1971 was approximately 0 (Zero!); between 1971 to today is -2% per year, average wage measured in terms of a fraction of an average car cost and average house. -2% per year over 37 years is roughly a 50% reduction in real standards of living! That’s why American middle class is being destroyed.

Typical class warfare, it’s ok to bail out those with or who controls money, then those who have to work and sweat for it. Change is coming you can bet on it.

glogrrl,
Why 50%? Why not 49% or 51%? why not 48% or 52% . . . heck why not 10% or 90%? You see the arbitrariness of those numbers through from the political process.
Bankruptcy will not mean the end of American auto industry. Toyota, Honda, BMW and etc. are already selling more made-in-America cars today than the Big-three’s. Even if the Big-3 gets liquidated, someone will be picking up the production lines. Most likely, a bnakruptcy of the Big-3 may not even lead to liquidation, but a Chapter-11 reorganization instead. Almost every American airline, excepting Southwest, has gone through the Chapter-11 process. Those who can make it through come out stronger.
Great Depression was caused by government intervention to keep prices artificially high. The only chance we have to avoid another Great Depression is to liquidate wasteful production (like those unsold cars piling up) quicly, so that the market will can adjust to more efficient allocation of resources. A bankruptcy-reorganization of the domestic automakers will be a good step towards it. The threat of bankruptcy will also finally enable the car dealers and/or their creditors to fire-sale the cars on the lots, so they do not rot on the lots.

The Big Three are “too big to fail?”
Heck, the USA is not too big to fail. And is rapidly on the road to proving it.

A true capitalist would say no bailout to failing companies. If they can’t compete they SHOULD go belly up. The human cost in lost jobs, wages, benefits, etc. is simply collateral damage. Job security is as impossible as a free lunch. Workers should jump the sinking ship and try to find other jobs.
It’s a cruel dog-eat-dog world out there. Survival of the fittest and all that.
So says the capitalist.

The bottom line is that if the automakers go down, this will cause major domino effects. They will pull many related businesses down with them causing many additional bankruptcies and business failures. In addition, the financial institutions that have lent money to the automakers will suffer more losses. This will cause the financial sytem to freeze up even more, depriving businesses all over the economy with the credit needed to operate. As a result, the recession will be a lot worse than it would otherwise be, the unemployment rate will be a lot higher than it would otherwise be, the loss of tax revenue to the government due to income going down will be much greater than it would otherwise be, and a much larger stimulus package is going to be needed to restore the economy to full employment than would otherwise be needed.
In addition, when the automakers go bankrupt, the stock market is going to take another major nosedive, so that the people whose retirement savings are in the form of stock investments are going to take an even greater hit than they already have.
Letting the automakers go bankrupt will cost the economy a lot more money than the 34B or so that the bailout will cost. Therefore letting the automakers go bankrupt is a classical example of being penny wise and pound foolish.

Julian,
Nobody is going to be eaten, and dogs are not running the world. The full term for “Bankruptcy” is “Bankruptcy Court Protection.” Bankruptcy is the safety net for failed business ventures. When business ventures fail, it should not have any more claim on natural or human resources, so that other businesses can put both to better and more productive purpose. If not for the failure of horse saddle makers and small family farms, the automakers would never have recruited the grand parents of many of the union workers to begin with, and Americans would not have had affordable cars a hundred years ago!
Big-3 have been taking up more natural resources and more human labor than they should for a couple decades now. It’s time for them to move aside, so that someone else with better ideas can bring better products and better services to Americans.

The republicans want to Bust the Unions. That’s it in a nut shell. Look how the republicans give billions to the Criminals on wall street and nothing for the working man.

Jonggmaster,
So why not give every unemployed person a $1million/hr job digging holes in the ground and filling it back up? Would that qualify as the Keynsian “seed job”? The resultant hyperinflation (people being paid without creating value) would quickly wipe out the entire economy.
High standard living can not be created by from government job protection, for a large economy as a whole anyway. High standard living has to be the result of high productivity. That’s why we need a free market place to switch people from unproductive jobs (like jobs at companies that have failed) to productive jobs.

Congress is really salivating over the prospect of getting to spend even more of our taxpayer money, aren’t they? SPEND, TAX, SPEND, TAX, SPEND, TAX… That’s our Congress.
Gee, I ownder what ever happened to the career field of being a Blacksmith… why didn’t we bail out that failing industry, as we all waved good-bye to our horses and started driving cars?
Ford/GM/Chrysler are just reaching the end of their corporate life, and are now going the way of the “covered wagon wheel makers.” Just let them DIE, and out of their ashes will emerge NEW companies, with NEW management, and a NEW business model that is designed to meet both our current and more importantly, our future transportation needs.
Maybe a company that thinks further outside the box… say for example, providing us with PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION that is every bit as convenient, if not MORE convenient, than owning and maintaining a rapidly depreciable asset like a car or a truck.

William,
I run a small consulting firm on the side… and its in finacial ruin. I haven’t seen a contract in that for several months, and my vice president (my wife) is still waiting for a paycheck… I agreed to pay her $300/hour!! Where is SHE going to find substitute employment????
Using your logic, I should be able to get a bail-out too!!!! Where do I submit my application?
DO you really think that a job should pay $20/hour, and not require a higher education? I think THAT’S at the very root of the problem!!!

I’m sorry, but if you run a large corporation that as affected and will affect millions of people and you can give the money to the financial scourge institutions, but can’t bail out an industry that was once this country’s bread and butter, then I think the country as a whole has a problem. Industrial jobs in the past never required a college degree and they paid VERY well. Are you one of these individuals that look down on people for not choosing college for one reason or another? Higher Education is a good thing but by all means it’s not for everyone. I’ve worked quite a few $15/hour jobs that did not require any education. I felt I contributed to the companies I worked and never felt bad because I chose life over college.

William,
You asked “Are you one of these individuals that look down on people for not choosing college for one reason or another?”
No, not at all… but they shouldn’t make as much as those who do have a college education, and are using that education to further our country. Someone has to flip burgers at Burger King, but society doesn’t owe them a $75,000/year job either. That’s SOCIALISM!!

Society doesn’t owe colleges graduates anything either. So $20/hour is too much for people without a degree? I applaude people who set a goal and stick to it (IE college graduates). However, ALOT of these so called “educated” people have run our institutions and companies into the ground in the past decade. Can you explain how paying a living wage is akin to socialism?

Wow . The misinformation and ignorance of the American public is staggering . A wise man once said “no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public ” or something to that effect .
A 4 cyl. truck ??? Buy a Volkswagon Beetle and marry a bed on it .
The number 1 vehicle sold for over 30 years is the Ford F-150 .Why ? Because America works for a living and if the economy ever picks up again trucks will be the first out of the block to show an improvement . This is evidenced by recent sales numbers showing Toyota dropped 34% over last years Nov. numbers while Ford only dropped 31% due largely to increased F-Series sales.
Speaking or gas guzzling trucks ,if the Big 3 were so stupid why in the hell did the infallible imports launch billion dollar efforts the last few years to get a piece of the highly profitable full size truck market ??? They must really be stupid to invest so much in a dead category LOL
Educate yourselves for god sake .
Big 3 autos have caught the others in quality and in quite a few cases surpassed them .
Safety ? American made leads the pack .
If any of you had read the last U.A.W. contract details you would already know that concessions have been made that brings the domestics in line by 2010 with transplant labor costs .
The only real difference to begin with involved the legacy costs of running a century old industry against a competitor that has no retirees !!!
Don’t forget it was a Big 3 alum that taught the Japanese how to build cars in the first place .
BTW . now that the imports are building so many trucks ,there mileage ratings have dropped .Go figure
P.S. Toyota just built a plant in Canada
. . . to avoid health care costs .Is it becoming clearer or would you prefer to believe ,as the wise Jim Cramer put it ,in the Senator from Toyota :)

It’s a lie that autoworkers get $70 (or $75) an hour — that false figure is the lying math of union busters in which the salaries of current workers plus their eventual retirements, plus all the money going to those retired now, are divided by just those working now.
Which amounts to claiming current workers’ paychecks also include the money actually going out to retirees.
The bailout money going to Wall Street, which makes no product (but millionaires of it’s mismanagers and paupers of those with 401ks) — why shouldn’t some of that go as loans to Detroit, which acually creates an American product sold around the world, and employs tens of thousands of workers?
Only the conditions should be: no loans if they lay off 20,000 workers. No loans unless they truly move away from fossil-fuel fossil autos.
(Although I prefer Micheal Moore’s suggestion: that we buy the Auto industry’s stock, which amounts to only 3 billion, and take over and run those industries better. Force Ford and GM to sell us the gas sippers they produce for the rest of the world, and truly go electric and green.)

William,
A person’s educational background is only relevent if his employer, his client and/or his date thinks it’s relevent.
“A living wage” is a ludicrous concept. For the majority of the history of the United States, $20/hr would mean the person is making the top 0.1% on the income cale . . . because $20 was worth nearly a full troy ounce of gold, worth about $750 today! That’s how the dollar was defined until 1913, in terms of gold. Government mandating “living wage” is a self-defeating concept as it only introduces inflation, wiping out real producers in favor of government parasites as the parasites always get the money first, and the real workers the last.
Living standard can only be improved by increasing productivity . . . and that means providing incentive for people to run away from obsolete jobs and switch to new productive ones. The usual mechanism for that is reducing wages for obsolete jobs to such a level that anyone hanging onto it can no longer afford a comfortable living. That’s the reason why small farmers quick farming and became factory workers at the autmaking plats a century ago. If the government had guaranteed a “living wage” on small family farms by taxing the automakers, the grandparents of UAW members would never have left the farm . . . and the living standards of all Americans, including those ex-farmer factory workers’, would have been much lower.

this is not the end of the world people only the world you and i have perceive it to be and created you clearly reap what you sow and this life,the criminals are in charge of this country,let us clean house for once & all.
may god have mercy on all of us and give us the courage to do what we know is right.
your fellow american
PREZ

Judy,
It’s not a Republican- or Democrat-exclusive mess. There’s plenty blame to go around for both parties. How many Democrats voted against Iraq War funding? How many Democrats voted against prescription subsidy? How many Democrats voted against federalizing airport screeners and other government expansion programs?
$80/hr is current overall labor cost per worker. The fact that there are less active workers today than retirees goes to show what a pyramid scam the labor contracts from the 50′s have been, all along. Just how correct the “collective negotiation” process has been.
A government-run company with the goal of job preservation . . . hmm, where have we heard that one before? The Soviet Lada factory? It will be guaranteed to turn out obsolete cars that are a complete waste of natural and human resources. Bureacrats have no incentive to innovate . . . and without profit motive, they won’t know how to innovate.

The difficult decision immediately to have to be taken to rescue the world

Woodvtech,
Right now, more Toyota’s, Honda’s, BMW’s, and etc. made in America are sold than are Big-3 branded vehicles sold here. Intel and Boeing turn out far more manufacturing value-addedness than the Big-3 combied. A Big-3 bailout would mean taxing all the successful manufacturers to subsidize the abject failure. That’s not how to preserve or develop a prosperous manufacturing industry.
Bailing out the banks was wrong. Two wrongs do not make a right.

If you truly want to understand the definitive reason why this government should NOT bail-out the U.S. auto makers see the recent PBS FrontLine special “Heat” online. The by-line says it all: “For years, big business — from oil and coal companies to electric utilities to car manufacturers — have resisted change to environmental policy and stifled the debate over climate change in America and around the globe.” These thugs have acted against their own best long-term interests and against the nation’s long-term interests – FOR DECADES. Now let’s end corporate welfare. The U.S. auto industry needs to bite the dust if they’re too stupid to make it.

I see that most commenters here are drinking deep from the GOP/Limbaugh kool-aid trough. This is not the fault of labor. The UAW has consistently worked with management and made deep concessions with every contract re-negotiation. Auto workers do NOT make $80 an hour. That is a lie told to you by the GOP idiots you listen too. Before you go bashing unions, check out what working conditions were like before their rise. No benefits, sub-standard wages, unsafe working conditions, 60-80 hour work weeks; you know the 1800′s through to the 1920′s and the robber barons. Without organized labor, we’d still be there. If management can exploit you they will. Prior to this economic ‘crisis’ there was no incentive for the American auto makers to alter their product line. The GOP refused to raise CAFE standards, the world was buying American trucks and SUVs (not to mention the more fuel-efficient cars they make in other countries). But now it’s labor’s fault.
No, this is simply fall-out from the banking industry melt-down. The reason they are in this mess is no one is buying ANY cars, not just American cars. Why, because the banks that took billions are just hording the cash, or using it for mergers and acquisitions. They are not lending to potential car buyers. I thought that gift to Paulson’s friends and Bush’s donors was to unfreeze the credit markets. Well,they made a much bigger mess with their credit default swaps and other ludicrous Ponzi type schemes than all three of these manufacturers.
But it’s labor’s fault. Don’t forget that.

Simple statement about getting money from the government. I heard this on the radio so I do not dare take credit.
If you take a shower before you put on your suit for work, you get money no problem.
If you shower after you get home from the line, forget it.

This is ridiculous! Or else what???? Congress doesn’t pass anything in December or January anyway. So what exactly are they threatening the President they are going to do? They can’t get enough votes among themselves – what do they think President Bush can do about it? No wonder their approval rating is lower than the President’s. What don’t they understand about the fact that the American public does not want these bailouts to occur??

Folks, we gave $700b to a bunch of corrupt bankers who offered no major plan and no concessions. Now, a minor percentage of that can’t go to middle and lower-middle class workers?
Also, for those of you trashing UAW workers, keep in mind that they spend their entire lives working in loud, dangerous conditions, doing repetitive work. The money they make often goes towards healthcare down the road. How do I know? I live in Michigan, and most of my older relatives have back, joint, and other related problems from working on the line. So stop commenting on a situation you don’t even begin to understand. Our unemployment rate is already 9.3%; running GM into the ground, rather than helping it as it transitions to making better cars, will only cripple our state and other states with auto-related businesses. You might think that won’t impact you, but eventually it will.
Finally, the UAW’s fight for better working conditions for its members has had a positive impact on your lives — all of the safety regulations and worker protections you enjoy came on the backs of the union workers in places like Michigan. It’s time for you to show a little gratitude…or it could be your job next.

The big 3 have been greedy and too slow in moving to green technology vehicles.
No bailout!!
Have them go bankrupt, bring in new leadership, negotiate new contracts with UAW that are appropriate for marketplace, develop only vehicles getting over 35+ mpg, invest and research green technology at a faster pace.
We should be thankful that gas prices have dropped from $4.30 to $1.80, but we should not think that they’ll stay this low. We need to be focused in breaking our dependency on foreign oil!

Would someone please tell me how Citigroup can get a 300 billion dollar bailout with no congressional hearing, no oversight, and also no plan to help the american people while an auto company that provides jobs to millions not only in it own company but through it’s suppliers has to gravel for 30 billion. This is ridiculous. I will tell you why. The money to Citicorp will benifit the already rich while the money to the Big 3 will benifit the middle class. This such a sickening redistribution of wealth that there should be criminal charges brought up on anyone who opposes the auto deal if not for any other reason but on principle. The Trickle down economics has failed because the rich have put up the roof gutters right back into their own rain bucket. All of you fools who think that the Big 3 have outsourced all of the jobs just wait to see how many of your neighbors are out of work. I am not in the union and very non union but I am very pro american and this republican rebuke of the auto industry is the latest in unpatriotic class warfare that they have been conducting for the last eight years. January cannot come soon enough. God help us that we make it that long intact. Here a good saying that wraps it up.
Republicans are people too.
Mean, Greedy, Selfish People.

Good God where did all these stupid people come from, LET DETROIT FAIL? What the hell are you people thinking, you do not live in a vacuum, if Detroit fails this country fails, plain and simple. Some of the people commenting here apparently don’t have the smarts to tie their shoes.

Because Bush, the worst example of humanity in the world, let alone the worst example of a US President, is against it says we really should take a serious look into helping the Auto Industry. Bush’s Administration idly let the Oil Industry pillage our wallets and is the ONLY President I can remember who said absolutely nothing when oil suppliers jacked up their prices. His judgment is so bad it’s fortunate for him that breathing is voluntary. Don’t turn our backs on Detroit over politics, particularly the errant Conservative brand.

White collar produce nothing and get 700 billion while the blue collar manufacture and produce tangible items. If hope the middle class will come to an end then I hope you eventually suffer as well.

Exactly Kudzu. I don’t know why people think that they will somehow be better off if Detroit fails.
Let’s see, let’s put it another way. If I had a thousand dollars and someone convinced me (how I don’t know)to just give them $700 without any type of plan to pay it back or show me what they would actually do with it, I would probably eventually kick my own butt. Oh, wait I get to give it to them the way I want to.
Now, since I didn’t give all of the money away at once I have what i didn’t give away set aside. A buddy of mine comes up to me and asks to borrow $30 dollars for lunch (how ironic to eat). Well, I know what he is doing with it. I know he’s good for it from a previous lunch loan I gave him. OK, maybe he shouldn’t have wasted so much money in Vegas, but he never failed to pay me back in the past.
$24 compared to $700. Not much comparison really.

Nationalize the Auto Industry under the aegis of the EPA and let the goals of personal transportation be guided by survival on all fronts.

This is a loan. Unlike AIG (300 billion tax payers dollars), Unlike Wall Street (Billions of tax payers dallors). You folks seem to be harsh on an industry that has carried this nation for 100 years, paid taxes for 100 years, and supported millions of Americans for 100 years. If your problem is with the UAW then say it is. Being critical of the industry itself, sounds more like you really want to rely on China and Japan should we have to engage in war. Because that is what every red-blooded american would have to do. We would have to be at the mercy China, Japan & Tiawan for all war supplies. We have given up enough to NAFTA, now this nation wants to rely on other countries for our security. Keep up this attitute, and our freedoms will be sacrified, giving up our rights- everything our forfathers had fought for. DO YOU WANT TO COMPLETELY RELY ON THESE OTHER COUNTRIES?
I agree, reduce wages, re-negotiate wages, cut exec bonuses, and eliminate job positions that seem redundant. (too many chiefs and not enough indians). The nepitism in the UAW is very prominent, and needs to stop. We must have true talent in the workplace and you can not do that with someone who has been cultured by greed and the misconceptions that you are worth more than you really are. I am a true believer that you are paid what your worth. Aything more, shame on them, anything less, shame on me.

Ford and GM already build cars that meet the future US standards. Thing is, they only sell them in Europe. Look at Ford’s UK website, the cars are not only nicer, but they are very efficient.
The Economy cannot absorb 3 million lost jobs…..period. Why are we having this discussion? Since we are talking about workers and not fat cat Wall Street managers, Republicans do not seem to care. If you watch the hearings, the auto makers were put in a hot seat and you can see the contempt in the committees attitude. When Wall Street was there FOR THE SAME REASON AND FOR MORE MONEY it looked like a cigar lounge. For Wall Street it was “You need money, here, have all you want, we will not give you any oversight at all”. For the Auto Industry it was “You here for average Americans, we can’t have that, by the way, how did you get here”. It’s crazy.

I wonder if this would even be an issue if Paulson worked at GM before becoming Treasury Secretary instead of previously working for Goldman Sachs?
Maybe he would have pushed just as hard for the auto makers and the puppet (Bush) would have agreed and the appropriations would have been passed in a week.

Bail ‘em out. This country can’t stand another major industry collapse. If they tank it effects their suppliers and their employees and ultimately everyone else. Why should the financial industry be the only free ride. It’s a loan. They’ll have to pay back. Make ‘em go green and give ‘em the money.

Too funny. I hope all you righties are ready for the depression your pushing for. AIG? White collar men making six figures. No questions asked. A middle class worker making 50K? Let them starve. If they don’t get theirs your not getting yours so watch out what you hope for.
And why are these righies so willing to give all our industries to foreigners?

WHY is it an IMMEDIATE EMERGENCY for the Big 3 to get this bailout money?
Can’t they wait until January 20, for Obama to sign this bill? After all, the Democrats won the state of Michigan, so the Dems should support the bailout. Why is there such desperation and it has to be done right now?
I support the bailout LOAN, but I do not think it has to be right now.

Heard of an analogy?
Simply comparing the numbers.
$700 billion and no answers, plans or oversight.
$24 billion and all of the answers they were asked for.
24 vs. 700
Do you see the comparison?

Yeah..let em’ go bankrupt. Send 3M to the streets and let every one of those $75 per hour jerks walk out. Yeah..who cares if 3M Americans out of work. Bush will save us..We could send them to LA and they could clear those towns of garbage from LA to TX. They could live in those asbestos trailers. Eventually we could create another state. Call it the State of Poverty directly funded by unemployment insurance and Medicare and food stamps. Screw em’. They deserve it. We could have direct rail transport from suburbs of Detroit right to that new state. Maybe we could get Joe the Plumber to be president and Phil Gramm Treasurer. Yeah. Then bring back Delay, after his pardon, and then have Cheney head dept of the (immigration) fence.
We could set up all those cars that ain’t selling and have them live in brand new caddys and olds and lincolns.
And then Bush could come down and tell us once again how we need to attack Iraq because they were responsible for 9/11.
And then let’s give another $700B to the top 1% like we’ve done since 2003 so that Cheney gets another $334,000 tax refund.
When someone intelligently explains to me how all this financial disaster came together at this one point in history and states just one implemented plan of Bush and treasury that actually worked so far then I will join the lynch mob who want the car companies to just fold up and go away.
Paulson is in Asia while America melts down. Bush is on national TV attempting to skew history and blaming intel for Iraq.
And for those 59M Americans who voted for Bush in 2004. You’re still dumb!

Why should the auto industry and its employees be given this special treatment? Lots of other folks are out of work too and lost their homes.
The only way to clean up the corruption and money grubbers in our country is to let it fall to the bottom of the barrel and start all over. As for the union wage auto workers, get rid of the 11 million illegals in this country and take over their jobs.

To everyone wishing for the death of the auto industry, if the auto industry dies so does our economy. Yes, they’ve made bad decisions but this is a national emergency. This is not only about the auto industry, dealers and suppliers. It’s about construction, manufacturing, restaurants, grocery stores, etc. It’s about our entire economy. Do you really want to experience a depression? Talk to you grandparents.

If Congress is going to bail out the auto industry who is run by the UAW just so noone loses their jobs, then they also need to consider bailing out other businesses like Circuit City, Linens and Things and everyother company that is closing its doors. Where does it stop? Who decideds that your job isn’t as important as an auto worker who makes 5,6,7 or 8 times your salary and will continue to make a good salary even after being laid off. They also still have their excellent health insurance at no cost, how many other workers can say that after being laid off? I think if congress wants to bail them out their should be stipulations 1. Workers take a pay cut, 1/2 their salary would be a good start even more better. 2. Give the UAW a kick in the A$$ out of company in other words dissolve it. They are the reason for this problem with obscene wages and benefits. 3. If the worker is laid off he collects unemployment like everyone else and has to provide his own health ins after 30 days. No more free ride for years. 3. No bonuses for anyone, since I the tax payer is going to have an investment in this company I feel there isn’t anyone there that is doing anything to deserve a bonus oh, and we the tax payer decided what the excutives will be earning. 4. Tell them to bring back their overseas plants to AMERICA (the place that is bailing them out). And last but not least, LET THE OIL COMPANIES WITH THEIR BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN PROFITS BAIL OUT THE AUTO INDUSTY, after all how much profit would they lose if it weren’t for gas guzzeling cars? I know your thinking there would be no regulation if the oil companies bail them out well isn’t the oil companies now preventing them from finding other alternatives to gas. There are cars out there invented that use garbage, cooking oil, and various other fuels.

WHOAH ! Back up here a moment. Didn’t we just hear a while back that if the banking system didn’t get our money we would have an economic meltdown ? Now we’re being told that if we don’t bailout the deaf, dumb, and blind american auto industry it will lead to an economic meltdown? AGAIN ? Let the oil companies bail out these car companies that keep pushing SUV’s and bigger and bigger trucks down our throats !!! They have had years to get it together, remember when we bailed them out in the 90′s ? Make a decent product- you’re just a business like any other……poor quality & performance for decades.
Ford makes well designed European models , how hard is it move a factory?
LET THEM FAIL…LET THEM FAIL….LET THEM FAIL….LET THEM FAIL….LET THEM FAIL….!

There’s a balance here. The auto industry provides millions of jobs and support jobs for America, almost 3 million jobs which is about 1-2% of the labor force in America. Additionally, many of these jobs are middle class, with benefits and pension benefits (with unions that collect pension and welfare contributions there is a capital markets component to the industry as well). The destruction of car dealers, manufacturers, third party suppliers and reduction in fuel, transport and support will drive us over the depression edge. We’ll have to support the people as they lose their homes, medical benefits, watch the resultant plunge as their unions liquidate all the managed funds to return them to membership. We need a quantitative analysis of the results, and if we feel the investment is justified we can make it. Iacocca turned Chrysler around from the brink, so it can be done.

I think the American people need to be bailed out from the Federal government. When it is time to step up and help us all they want to do is play politics as usual. The economy is not what will eventually sink us all, it will be the lack of government leadership.

I love my New Escape, But Ford and the others can digg themselves out out of this mess. Or I buy a BMW, VW or Mercedes Benz.
Either way the Bailouts are an insult to the American Public and taxpayers. What was once thought to be a saving of our financial institutions and homeowners, has turned into bailing out the wealthy and inept greedy Dems & independents.
Let the whole thing rot away and find someone else to make your investments with. Get a new bank account at another bank.

Do any of you republicans understand how our government works? The congress writes laws the president enacts them and supports them with funding from the federal budget. Duh! Bush can’t just “pass the buck and force others to make a tough decision” as some of you have suggested. He is the president. He has to approve the loan. That’s his role as president. Sheesh.
That said, I don’t like the idea of corporate socialism any better than most of you, but it’s not that simple. Whether we loan them money or just pay it in unemployment benefits when they go belly up, we’re gonna pay either way. We just need to see which will give American taxpayers the best ROI.
As far as the Buy American argument goes, that’s not capitalism, that’s a kind of socialism. Consumers don’t have an obligation to use their hard-earned money to purchase lousy products and underwrite poor leadership at these struggling companies. That would also be a form of the socialism you hate.
Furthermore, do you realize that we already have numerous socialist policies in place? Yes, we do. Why? Because strict capitalism is amoral and doesn’t take in account the welfare of the workers. For instance, social security, unemployment benefits, the minimum wage, worker’s comp, the 40-hour work week, child-employment laws, medicare, medicaid, etc. These all came about as ways to limit the destructive, downward pressure on workers, BECAUSE, if you read your Marx, the cost of labor is the only thing business owners can control. So without these tools in place we’d all be at the mercy of industrialist/capitalists and the petty bourgeoisie.
So don’t be so quick to trash talk socialism. Unfettered capitalism is neither moral or immoral. It’s amoral, and because of this it is the job of governments to manage it in such a way as to allow for making the benefits of capitalism (entrepreneurialism, job creation, wealth creation, etc.) work for everyone equitably without destroying the proletariat in the process. Socialism is all about protecting the workers of the world from the destructive aspects of capitalism. It’s to your benefit to understand this. No one wants to be 100 percent socialist, but when you criticize what you don’t understand you run the risk of hurting yourself and the country. WAKE UP!

Big Three Promise Green Future But Spent Millions To Lobby Against It
Let em sink… they’ve had YEARS and plenty of money to get up to snuff long before now. If we weren’t bailing out Wall Street I seriously doubt these clowns would have gotten in line for this latest handout.
They have raped the American public with overpriced inefficient cars for years, bought patents that would have given us 100 mpg or better… and now come whining after they have spent millions lobbying for their own self interests, not having enough to get through next year?

Why can’t the automakers get loans from the banks? I thought that’s why we gave the banks a bailout.. so they could keep money circulating, Ie.. LENDING to businesses. I think the dems are right, the banks should recirculate the money in the form of loans. Right now they are sitting on it, or worse, using it to acquire more assets. That is NOT what the taxpayer bargained for.

Republican policies caused this economic meltdown, but as usually, the ignorant cowards refuse to do anything about it. In my 61 years on earth, I have never despised a Party more than the Republicans. May those who support their selfish ways rot in hell along with Bush, Cheney and all the freakin Republican crooks who have reeked havoc on this nation. Republican and their party are dead in the eyes of most Americans

I actually think bankrupcy would be best for the automakers. They are going to shed jobs anyway folks, and bankrupcy means restructuring, not closing the doors. And the best thing of all, it means they get to break their union contracts.

elephant in the room. healthcare costs. driving everyone insane. including unions and corporations. other industrialized nations have nationalized healthcare and the corps and unions don’t have to reconcile that in their business model.
wake up america

After reading all these comments in favor of letting the Big 3 go under, I am thrilled. Finally the American people realize that funding the big 3 is a waste of time. Oil prices are going to rise again. Food prices are going to rise again even more. It could easily be two years or even longer before the banks are going to extend credit again. We won’t be able to afford the cars they build or the gas to run them. Bailing them out is putting off the inevitable.
Guess what folks!! We are about to become the most environmentally conscious and least obese nation on the planet. Buy a Bike! O and please…BUY AMERICAN!

V. Rogers,
Great points. I actually think we should have bailed out the auto industry rather than the financial industry. And we didn’t put ANY strings on that money we gave to the banks, while we rake the auto guys over the coals. The banks were supposed to use federal money to lend to businesses and consumers. #1- the car makers should qualify for some of those loans.. and #2 more credit means more consumers and businesses will buy more cars. But instead, the banks are sitting on the cash, or acquiring other banks. Once again, working for themselves and not for the good of the nation… with OUR MONEY! Every single politician in washington should be thrown out. And yeah, that includes the messiah Obama.

Hey Mr. President and Democrats. How about you bail ME out. Hey, lets just give that 700 billion to the American people, that’s about 2 million and some change each – now that’s a stimulus package! I’m supporting myself and my 5 month old on 12 bucks an hour yet you want to take money from me to bailout these fat cats? Since we’re just tossing the taxpayers money around, how bout you bail me out?

Auto workers do not make $80 a hour! Get your facts straight!! They average $28 dollars a hour! That is a far cry from $80!! Whatever side you are on regarding the bail out make sure your facts are right before you make an arguement.

I am sad to read so much hate towards the auto industry. Most of the negative comments are about the UAW. The UAW is only a small part of the picture. It sounds like most Americans think that the entire industry is UAW.Do your homework. I am a designer. I have no union. I went to school got an education and work hard. I have no union. There are thousands of designers, engineers, buyers, analysts, etc… We have no union and our jobs are in jeopardy.

If they can reward the incompetence and bad management on Wall St then why not Detroit? Detroit has been a bad business model for decades so really they are more deserving than Wall St. Besides the auto guys only want a small fraction of whats been given away on Wall St. I think those poor Detroit CEOs deserve an AIG spa trip! Remember the French revolution and those royal heads? That’s what we need now. Wall St, Washington, Detroit, off with all their heads!

As a flight attendant and union member for 10 years who had to give major contract concessions when the govnmnt would not give airlines anymore money and we had to save ourselves I was astonished to see what an auto union member makes. It is twice what I make as well as my firefighter husband. I am definately against corprate greed but when your making that kind of money in a small town where cost of living is less, I think the union auto member could give back some. If I have gotten by in a big expensive city with a new house and no credit card debt, they can too!

The majority of American citizens are saying “No bailout!”
The majority of American citizens don’t approve of organized labor and it’s execs.
The majority of Americans don’t like the Wall Street bailout.
Who is listening to the American people?

A lot of “heat” about the “Big 3″. If you watched the Senate Commitee hearing, Senator Corker (R-Tenn.) made a lot of sense. Even with a “bailout”, they’re not going to make it. Many referenced the Chrysler bailout years ago. Many years ago people were buying cars and banks were loaning money but that is not the case now. What troubles me the most is knowing that the $700 Billion we are flushing down the toilet with the financial institutions could have been put to better use. Home foreclosures, american industry etc. etc. A lot of people are going to end up suffering before this is over. It is all very, very sad.

They should let capitalism take its course. If the auto makers fail, they can file bankruptcy. There will be another company to come in and fill the void. Until then, everyone who voted Dem will be happy to know that socialism is rearing its ugly head.

I was against the initial bailout for the financial corps. However, since it was passed and signed, why not take 5% of it and structure a loan for the auto makers.
Emotionally, I would love to see all the wall street bankers and Detroit automakers fail. Rationally, I think the average american would end up damaged more than any of the execs at these companies, if that happened.

About auto workers supposedly making 80$ and hour: it’s bunk, plain and simple. The median pay for auto workers is 28$/hr. Add benefits and you *might* get to about 40$/hr.
The only way to get that idiotic 73$/hr number being floated about is to add in all the obligations owed RETIRED workers, which the auto industry must now pay out of pocket, BECAUSE THEY STOLE THAT MONEY IN THE PAST AND NOW THEY HAVE TO PAY IT BACK. To blame the auto workers for their bosses stealing their money is rich indeed.

Jim Let Em Go Bankrupt,
Can’t we get more Jeff Daniels commercials on to save Michigan? It would just break my poor little heart to see Detroit turn into post-Katrina New Orleans but without all the wind and water. The thought of all those $75/hr unskilled workers left to looting their local Walmart just brings a tear to my eye. But fortunately for Michigan they’ve got effective Kathleen Blanco level competence in Granholm. And fortunately for the rest of the US, the Office of the President Elect has selected Jennifer Granholm to expand Michigan’s awesome economic policies everywhere. Awesome!

Half the comments on here are ridiculous.
First, the Democrats cannot make any decisions on whether to use the TARP money for a bail-out. The Presdient and the treasury control the money. So it is not that the dems that are not making a decision, as they are not in control of the money.
Second, this is a loan. It will be paid back. It is not a free give away. Many other countries around the planet are now giving money to support their domestic auto industry. The credit crisis made the auto sectors’ access to capital difficult. The government is being asked to fill the gap. It is only a temporary measure.
Finally, all the firms of Wall Street are getting almost 100x more money from the government with no questions asked. Seems a bit silly to bail-out Wall Street and not take a look at the auto sector as well. If any of the auto companies file for bankrupcy it will push this country much much deeper into a recession.
Bush does not want to act as he does not really care because he is leaving and goverment help goes against everything the Republicans supposively stand for, even though they helped create this credit crisis and recession, which has really hurt the auto sector at a time when they are trying to turn themselves around.

When are some people going to learn that the bailout of the big three is not about helping some crooked execs or a bloated union. It is about JOBS in a FAILING ECONOMY. The Nov. Job report just came out 533,000 jobs lost the most since 1974. This economy is headed into a VAST tailspin and you want to take actions that will make it FAR worse??? Are you people INSANE? It isn’t just the union jobs that will be lost, though in and of itself that would be bad enough, it is also about the parts manufacturing jobs and the jobs lost at dupont who make the paint ect ect. Lost jobs mean lost consumers which in turn mean MORE lost jobs and so on. I understand the sentiment to stick it to these guys but now is NOT the time for knee-jerk reactions to the GREATEST economic crisis this country has had since the great depression. Yet still people want to play the blame game. Please, for you sake and mine, stop acting like CHILDREN.

“First, the Democrats cannot make any decisions on whether to use the TARP money for a bail-out.”
So pass a new law. That is what Congress does. Complaining about Bush this and Bush that is getting seriously old. CONGRESS writes the laws. The President signs/vetos them.
While you may “think” Bush is a dictator, he is not and does not have the power to be one.
Learn how the US Government functions.

Edward,
Your comment is ridiculous. The Demcrats supported the initial $700 bn bailout significantly more than the Republicans. The only reason the pork was added to the bill was to get the Republicans to vote for the bill. Go read your history on this. The Republicans added the pork.
You have no idea what you are talking about. Go re-read the news at the time of the passing of the bill.

Funny. Where was this response to the financial industry bailout, which the Bush administration insisted was absolutely necessary or the world economy would collapse.
And where is the outrage to Paulson’s lack of oversight of TARP and Bernanke’s refusal to explain where $2 trillion in Fed loans have gone.
And how can you blame Dems for this when they weren’t even in control of Congress from 2000 to 2006? The Republicans (plus John Dingell) have been behind delaying and reducing the fuel efficiency standards for decades. So we don’t have the vehicles we need. And they watched derivatives and outlandish CEO compensation rape our economy, while using the Fed to push cheap money out the door to disguise the poor economy and defer the collapse as long as possible.
Leave it to Republicans to rewrite history, even before it’s past.

Here’s a PSA for those living in rural Michigan.
Dig lots of holes.
Avoid legal entanglements when the looters in Detroit come for your stuff. And bask in the glow of having helped a union thug find one of President Elect Obama’s “Green Collar Jobs” (as fertilizer)
Dig lots of holes.

The simple truth is that even at the higher cost of $34 Billion the big 3 can not survive without major changes in their operating policy.
The unions have create such a drag on the company resorces that it is unsupportable. The Democrats want to be seen as heros to the UAW without actually doing anything and in 2 or 3 years when the come again to Washington begging for another bailout they can blame Bush. The UAW will continue to pay the democrats and everyone will have forgotten 2008. Maybe

Phil,
The democratic congress does not vote the money in this case. The money was already voted on for the TARP fund. The democrats gave Paulson and treasury the blank check for $700 bn. Paulson and Bush have control over where that money is spent. The Democrats once they gave Paulson the blank check now have no control over where the money is going to be spent. They are now asking Bush and Paulson to spend some of that TARP money on the auto sector, which they refuse to do.

It’s so easy to say let someone else suffer. But by gosh, if WE are the ones in trouble, I bet you a nickel that we would be asking for help to.
I have mixed emotions about the auto bailout. On one hand, the CEOs and “big wheels” don’t deserve our support. On the other hand, the 10s of thousands innocent workers don’t deserve to lose their job and means to support their family.
Put YOURSELF in the assembly line workers shoes. Would you still tell the Republicans to NOT help you?

Russ wrote: “I’m telling you, the workers can’t afford 80% of what they’ll be manufacturing on $30/hour.” ++++ How much do you think the average person buying cars earns?

JoeJoe,
Simple Solution:
The Democrat Congress votes the money the Republican President signs the bill.

Or else hearings will be held about the 350 billion dollars that Paulson just stole from the government in a socialist handout.

Kelly,
Simple Solution:
The Democrat Congress votes the money the Republican President signs the bill.

Ya know, I could do a search and replace of ‘auto’ with ‘financial’ and turn all the knee-jerk Republican criticisms of the Democrats into Republican criticism of Republicans with the push of a button.
And and BTW the Wall Street bailout costs 10 times as much. Is perspective on a blog too much to ask for?

this should be pinned on Bush. How long ago was it he was trying to convince us the economy was just fine? How many times has he been told the housing market was about to fail and he ignored it? How many times was he warned and yet continued to ignore it?
I do not agree with the bailouts but since they were passed why is it just being used to bailout Wall Street? Oh yes…they have better, more powerful connections to Washington.
And then when they receive money they sit on it. They should be lowering interest rates but they aren’t coming down. They still want to make their big bucks fast while borrowing taxpayer money at a low interest rate.
If the auto industry does go belly up most of you who are saying no to bailing out the auto industry will be whining in your Starbucks coffee in a few months.
One way or another this will eventually trickle down to all of us. Isn’t that the theory behind trickle-down economics?
I think those of you who are against bailing out the auto industry probably aren’t feeling the effects of this current economy. You probably still have jobs, are able to pay your mortgages and credit card payments on time, send your kids off to college and buy them a new car to drive around in.
when you start to feel the pinch you will be the first to cry.

DelegateMath,
Yes this is what happens when ~40% of voters don’t pay income taxes but get a say in how the money is spent.
No Representation Without Taxation!

Detroit makes many great cars, and their quality is equal or better than the foreign cars. Toyota, Mercedes, and VW have all experienced quality problems over the last 10 years, and have not been penalized for it by the automotive press. Government regulation is partially responsible for the uncompetitive environment the Big Three are in: exempts foreign car companies from unions; Southern states provide MASSIVE subsidies to foreign companies to open up plants in their states; doesn’t enforce trade laws that allow MASSIVE subsidies by the parent countries of the foreign companies ($4000/Japanese car, $7000/Korean car, $2500/German car, etc.). This doesn’t include the fact that other countries provide healthcare. Would you buy that Hyundai if it cost $7000 more? The Big Three are the heart of American manufacturing. Without a manufacturing sector, we cease to be a great power. We have thrown over a trillion dollars at the finance sector without any strings or guaranties. They have the most easily replaced skills in our economy, and were the ones responsible for getting us into this mess in the first place. Detroit is asking for a loan – not a bailout. It is time to leave the completely failed Supply Side policies behind, and implement Demand Side policies with proven track records. Millions of American jobs and this country’s future are at stake.

First of all Bush didn’t start this mess.
Maybe that’s what the liberal fascists in our MSM wolfpack press and their close pals and fellow party members, the Dems are saying.
The FACT is Congresses run “economies” and President’s run “wars”
Bush is doing a great job at running the wars, now.
This completely WORTHLESS DEMOCRAT Congress has done NOTHING in the two years since taking power.
EXCEPT …. to run daily “political lyncings” and “endless votes on US troop withdraws from Iraq”. That’s how they spent 2007
Does ANYONE STILL remember that?

It is amazing how some people can’t see the forrest for the trees. What happens to the 3 million people that work directly for the Auto industry if the big three go out of business. Simple, they’re out of work and their spending gets cut. Which means stores restaurants, movie theaters, video stores, gas stations, doctors, ect, have less customers. They in turn start cutting jobs. Then those people start cutting back. Which means stores restaurants, movie theaters, video stores, gas stations, doctors, ect, have less customers. They in turn start cutting jobs. Then those people start cutting back. Which means stores restaurants, movie theaters, video stores, gas stations, ect, have less customers. They in turn start cutting jobs. Then those people start cutting back. And the cycle continues until we are in a depression an unemployment could become as high as 1 in 4 Americans are out of work. If you are employed, and you do not want to keep these 3 million people working in a recessionary period, you are pretty much saying I’m ok with the possibility of losing my job. If these 3 million people head to the unemployment line we are all going to feel it, no matter what your profession is.

Bring on the depression!!!!! It is coming anyway! NO MORE BAILOUTS for ANYONE!!!!!!!!

the big 3 need to reinvent themselves in order to survive, even if they get a bailout….first, the union must go. secondly, cars must be more competetive with foreign models, thirdly, executive compensation and perks reduced significantly…personally I could give a damn if they fail….leaders are supposed to be visionaries…seems like the CEO’s saw nothing but the greenback in their paychecks

We are on the brink as an economy. If the Big-three go under so do the rest of us. It is the Great Depression again. The Federal Government has to spend money it does not have in a big way to avoid depression. What better way than to keep the middle class of this country employed (No tax cuts and budget balancing won’t work. tax cuts never stimulate the economy enough to pay for themselves, and budget balancing is what Hoover did).
Time for the partisan passions and ideology to be set aside and start thinking critially.

DelegateMath,
Community Reinvestment Act? Are you kidding? Really you must be joking. You think the entire credit crunch initially created by the collapsing housing market can be simply traced back to the Communicty Reinvestment Act?
You think Fed interest rate policy, zero oversight on how mortgages were marketed and handed out, financial derivatives, a house for anyone mentality, speculation, inappropriatedly priced risk by credit rating agencies and investors, etc. etc. etc. can all be traced back the the Community Reinvestment Act?
What a joke? Although you cannot blame all the housing collapse on Bush, you can say that his adminstration did very little to monitor the situation and try to control or regulate what was going on. There were plenty of warnings about derivatives and the housing market bubble.

ROW says,
“Bush is doing a great job at running the wars, now.”
HAHAHAHA!!! your a funny guy. But something tells me you’re not joking. but you are a joke!

OMG:
Actually, I didn’t say anything about Bush’s ability to run wars, which of course has been consistently atrocious. If Bush had been in George Washington’s spot, we’d all be British.
Must be a case of mistaken ID.

Why don’t we let the the banks that we have bailed out with the TARP monies loan money to the Auto Manufacturers—That way the money is used for the purpose it was intended for TROUBLED ASSETS

“Compassionate conservatives”? What a bunch of unmitigated crap…The Republicans find it impossible to look beyond their own noses. They are incapable of understanding anything beyond their own wallets. Studies have shown that their is a direct correlation between economic contractions or downturns and Republican presidential administrations. There’s a reason for this. It’s called greed and selfishness. They are the hoarders and that is why “trickle down” has never worked. If we lose the auto industry, everyone loses, period…Except the ultra wealthy who will ride out the economic storm without any difficulty whatsoever, smiling all the while as the country returns to pre-New Deal economics.

Turtle:
“Gee, who’s going to pay for this? Raise taxes on working people, borrow money, or print money?”
Aside from the fact that the Republican Party has been running a thirty year program to bankrupt the nation just so it could kill The New Deal, so far the Republican answers to your question have been:
cut taxes for the wealthy
borrow money from China
print money to mask the problem
Now our entire economy is so screwed the ONLY solution is government spending to create jobs, because the wealthy won’t invest in producing goods and services no one can afford to buy, and their money is all tied up in unproductive, unregulated derivatives, anyway.

My bad, ROW. it was “perceptions’” post.

Get with it people. We’re talking about 5 MILLION jobs. We’re talking about a loan. Chrysler was able to repay a similar loan made in the 70′s. Check your facts. Auto workers don’t make $80 an hour, auto makers claim labor COSTS them $80 per man hour but they factor in pensions and healthcare for people who are already retired, insurance to have workers on the plant, even the costs of electricity and plumbing in the break rooms. American Auto workers are paid closer to $20 an hour; $28 with benefits. You are suckers for believing a bunch of guys who make closer to $30,000 an hour when they cry hardship for having to pay people who make just over that in a year.
We loose the auto industry say buh-bye to the recession and hello to a depression. Say buh-bye to one more sector where the US can be inovative and develop new important technologies and hello to making $10 an hour in some crappy job working for Toyota in Alabama (which, trust me, no self respecting Japanese person would do).
WAKE UP! Give them the loan, charge them interest and FORCE THEM to move into the 21st century.

Is it me or don’t I recall Bush giving a TAX REBATE for vechicles over 6500 pounds? You know those SUV things? Yep, Detroit Management needs a kick in the options/bonuses/salary pants. Yes, the big 3 got themselves into this with both Democrat & Republican help over the last 30 years. The big 3 closed down plants, got concessions from workers, retirees and those nasty unions then gave themselves bonuses and more stock options because the BS quarterly reports should double digit profits after “reducing” costs and becoming more “efficient”. Detriot has been re-selling re-badged Toyotas, Hundais Kias, Opels, Mazdas, Mitsubishis, Suzukis, etc. as GEO’s, Malibus, Avenders, & Festivas. At least Ford uses Ford of Europe products such as the Contour and Focus to name a few so they have had the technology for over 30 years to produce and or learn fromt their foriegn competition. All that aside, the government has been complicit in BS’ing us as much as the big 3. It’s both Dems and Reps so wake up and realize whatever got us here eliminating more working class jobs and letting them go under is not going to teach the management a lesson, hell they have enough tax loopholes to pay less tax then the line workers combined. Fix the issues once and for all. Get efficient, manage the cost (especially the management pay and comps), give tax credits for fuel efficient models not SUV’s unless they truly are used for WORK like construction, plumbing, farming etc. not Real Estate, or company management vechicles etc. and lets really get to a pay for performance business model not the good old boy network. In fact, why doesn’t the government use more fuel efficent vechicles instead of the limo’s and SUV’s themselves and lead by example?. Hell I’d love to work on the board of directors, get my 5 digit salary to meet a few times a year to ok company decisions and cover all my “cost” to attend those meetings etc. while I take my family on vacation. Come kids wake up! The more people employed the more tax revenues the government gets from salaries, purchases etc. and the less people on the “entitlement” rolls you republicans cry about all the time. It’s not rocket science here. Just look around your own work place and you can see the games that are played. Ever been bough by another company? Isn’t it great how the big boys can excercise their stock options immediately even when the company is not profitiable.

Ok..I can’t believe how many people live inside a bubble. First of all, I am not a fan of the UAW-never have been. I am worried about my family as a result of this crisis. We are one of the many suppliers and the real worry we are facing now is this- how are we going to get more steel if we can’t get an extension on our credit line because the banks won’t ease up?? People are down from 45 hours to 25..how can you provide for your family? This will effect every single American regardless of your gender, age, Religion, political view. We can’t expect our next President to come in on a white horse and save the day, because it isn’t going to happen.

First of all the news media has a severe play in the finacial mess that this country is in.
Second is that a comoditiy based economic system is a spelling for disaster. What ever happened to he who has more gold, silver, copper etc. wins. At least and economic structure on these items is hard core based and not a bunch of useless paper that it is written on.
Third is we have no choice but to bailout the auto industry..How many of you still run hay burners (horses) not many the farmland that was once is no more again to the overseas markets. The trickel down effect will be astronomical. It is not all the auto industry’s fault either what about greedy OPEC, Tree huggers who have us laws that we dont need. I think the goverment needs to stop protecting the stupid people and let them be stupid..

OMG: No problem. Easy mistake to make.
Re: Republicans trying to blame the economy on the Community Reinvestment Act.
That act, way back in 1979, established the fact that two people with the same credit scores, regardless of race, would get the same rates, which of course until that time was far from the case. And would no doubt still be true today if Republicans had their way.
What brings empire’s down?
As Kevin Phillips’ research shows (Spanish, Dutch, British):
- concentration of wealth
- increasing focus on financial wagering instead of goods and services
- military over-reach
Sound familiar? Sound like thirty years of voodoo economics?
Jared Diamond’s assessment of why civilization Collapse?
- environmental degradadtion
- resource depletion
- climate change
Hmmmm.
Republican rule = Disaster.
Time to reboot.
Ixnay on the oodoo-vay conomics-eay

The Dems should bring out the big club: bailout or impeachment.

Ok..I can’t believe how many people live inside a bubble. First of all, I am not a fan of the UAW-never have been. I am worried about my family as a result of this crisis. We are one of the many suppliers and the real worry we are facing now is this- how are we going to get more steel if we can’t get an extension on our credit line because the banks won’t ease up?? People are down from 45 hours to 25..how can you provide for your family? This will effect every single American regardless of your gender, age, Religion, political view. We can’t expect our next President to come in on a white horse and save the day, because it isn’t going to happen.

Npoe. Sorry Dems, find another sucker. After al ltheir talk of doing things without Bush’s approval, they don’t have the stones to pull the trigger becasue they know they will get blamed. Bush is out the door, he isn’t going to approve this disaster of a bailout.
This horro show bailiut is all yours Dems and Obama. The MSM idiotically gives BO credit when the market is on the uptick but comes up with any and every excuse other then BO and his horrible choices when it dives. Nope, this baby is all yours to screw up on a grand scale. Tax payers don’t want it, so it’s your necks on the line if you decide to go ahead and pay kickbacks to the big 3 and your union croines

Kelly:
I hear you on the auto industry collapse leading to depression.
I want to say, however, they we are headed for depression, regardless.
30 years of concentration of wealth and de-regulation have recreated the conditions of 1929.
Add to that the Republicans penchant for borrowing money to cut taxes and reduce interest rates to give away cheap money and we have a long-lasting disaster.
I suggest we pay the auto-industry to shut down their gas guzzler plants and re-tool them for efficient, green vehicle plants ASAP, without laying anyone off.
It won’t be cheap but we’ll keep the jobs AND get the vehicles we need.
And if we fix healthcare, we can draw down that cost to the industry as well.
Amazing how in 50 years we have gone from the western nation that was first in working the fewest hours for the best pay and benefits to virtually last. And Republican rank & file want to blame their co-workers, rather than their CEO’s, who have raped us for decades at the hands of their Party, their votes.

I do not think the bail out is the way to go, it has already been said it will only help short issues. So why bail out? I am very sorry for anyone who maybe put out of work over it, but thats the fault of there bosses high up on the chain not the American tax payers. Also I have a number of frineds & family who have lost jobs here in the last few weeks, & these people are not getting help. All I hear about is the possible out of work autoworker, what about all these people out of work that have nothing to do with the auto industry? Also one of the ways to fix the big 3 is they need US to go buy cars… WE CAN’T WE ARE BROKE!!!!

Row:
You are correct in all areas. Every single politican is too blame- both red and blue. This has been coming along time and we were warned, but no one wanted to listen and now the sheriff and come a calling…….

During the period of transition, it may be fair the outcoming president wraps up tiny things, makes arrangement for the incoming president in terms of the big issues, especially considering the failed economic policy.

WE NEED A COMPLETE NEW CON-gress ! They are all CROOKS!!!

let the big 3 morons go under. along with the UAW THUGS that brought this on themselves!!
this country has been becoming more and more socialist for 40 years now…and all OBama is gonna do is another new deal…which didn’t work the first time
I hope america and all you socialist democRAT stooges learn the hard way, that socialism doesn’t work. the government cannot take care of you.

The ignorance displayed by some of these comments is astounding. If the automakers go under, the social costs to taxpayers will far outweigh the amounts being asked for under the bailout. The fact that middle-class Americans don’t seem to understand how the elite has manipulated them for the past 40-years is indicative of the anti-intellectualism that permeates our society.
While we should all be disgusted with how the Big 3 have been managed and the outsourcing that’s occurred, if these companies fail the economic devastation will be more horrific than anything we’ve seen to date. Without a strong manufacturing base, Americans will soon be working for third world wages and anyone who believes otherwise simply hasn’t been paying attention. The majority of Americans looked the other way as Republicans introduced laissez-faire economics to this country, and when the “free market” failed many of you continued to stick your heads in the sand while Bush and Company privatized the profits and socialized the losses for Wall Street. However, when it comes to preserving one of our most vital industries and literally millions of blue-collar jobs, the majority seems incapable of recognizing the ramifications.
The collective stupidity of this country is just one of the reasons why we’ve become the laughing stock of the global community. Our status as a world leader is quickly diminishing, for the sakes of your children or grandchildren or anyone else you care about, please wake up and educate yourselves.

All this nonsense about the superiority of foriegn cars is baloney. I have owned both. I like Nissan. I own a chrysler (Pacifica), which has 127,000 miles on it and all I’ve ever had to do as far as repairs is recently get a new battery. That is a better record than my Nissan or Toyotas that I’ve owned. I get 20 miles to the gallon, which is comparable to the same class japanese model.

They have to be more careful….they have already seem the mistakes made with the last bailouts & they have hopefully learned from that mistake…look what AIG did & DC knows the American public is really ticked off. I’m glad they are takine there time with this. It was said yesterday that these billions will only help them for a short amount of time & they will not be able to payback the loan unless WE all go outr & buy new cars. Most of us can’t afford to go buy a car right now & won’t for a long time. That means billions of $$ will be wasted on a something that can’t be saved. These company’s need to start over from top to bottom on a smaller scale. Everyone won’t win, but everyone wouldn’t loose.

Heck yeah cowboys and cowgirls, why should GWB worry about another few million Americans out of work? It won’t bother him a bit – he and Laura will sleep very well in their new $2million house in January. Everyone else in America can sleep in their cars, if they have one left, that is. I hear its getting pretty full under the bridges also.

Should have read, “make some of that 700 billion dollar financial industry bailout money available to our large union voter block or else.” I say or else. There are reasons why our domestic auto industry is in trouble but I see no solutions offered, just an extended hand. You just a well take the money and wrap it around a big rock and throw it off the bridge and get ready to do it again and again. Once a hand-out always a hand-out…This will be the first mistake the Dems will make in a new administration and will come back to haunt them, us, for the next four years.

Hi LongT, I like your comment. Its funny.

Posted by: LongT | Dec 4, 2008 9:01:00 PM
correct! it is Bush’s fault no matter what ! No matter that it was the stupid Dems. who help drive up OIL PRICES for the last 2 years , thus feeding into this depression that we are having by now. No Matter that it was Dems’ dreams of having the low-income families to have houses beyond their means that starting the Corporate Greed (which Repulican is certainly a part of ) which start it all this . Have any doubt ? Remember , for the whole last years , GAS on the Average was 3.5dollars/gallon , now , consider a family of 4 , how would that gas price drove up the prices of your electric bills , monthly gas bills , food bills , shipping bills ….I said that family will have to pay at least $400 more than what they would if GAS had been around $2 like now (which is too late by the way ) , SEE how people are late on mortgage payments that started all THIS??????? Tell me if the above is not true ??? In free enterprise , let the big 3 go into re-organization like anyone else , let them rid of the Unions’ contracts that is unfair to US companies , let them face the pain to grow , IF NOT , please also consider BAILING OUT the Airlines , the shipping ocmpanies , the Insurances …..and JOE the NoBody like me !

I have a suggestion, if the democrats think pulling the auto unions out of the mess THEY made how about a deal, Bush’s 95 federal judges the dems have not approved for Bush’s approval of the give away, THAT would be worth something to those union people who voted for Obama…

To OMG: Republicans aren’t very smart, that’s why they can’t spell, and why they’re Republicans.
To all: Should the auto industry be bailed out? No. They have failed. However, if they fail we are all going to feel it. There is no doubt about that. This economy can’t take much more, and this is why the Dem’s are pushing a bailout. They care about the American people.
And if big 3 do receive a bailout what do they plan to do with it? Well, they will use the same body types that are already in production, and simply change the engine a little bit. They already have factories for this. They may build a few new ones. We will have the same cars, with gas mileage slightly better. 34 billion dollars worth ought to be sufficient for more than enough of the new factories, but they won’t spend all the money on that. They’re crooks. The heads of these companies need to be fired immediately and new leadership should be put in.

This started in the 80s when the government started buying out the farmers of america to force us to purchase foods at markets grown in Mexico and other contries. Today, less than 10% of all the food we consume, is grown here in america. We have state governments giving property and tax breaks to our competitors to operate their business here at our tax paying expence. Look on the shelves at the store. Most products say “distributed from” new york, california, most major ports. This is an idication that we have been loosing american jobs for almost 30 years. To the government, this should be a big concern. Why would we want to be totally reliant on imported product to eat, drive, and protect ourselves during times of war.
As a nation of consumers, we need to wise up. Look at the labels, take notice of the product we about to purchase. The news recently posted an article about the imported toys with lead in it, yet millions of americans will purchase these and let their kids play with poisoned toys. If an american company were to produce such a toy, the product would be pulled from the selves immediately. What makes the imports so different or special that they are not pulled from the shelves? YOU THE CONSUMER…! As long as you buy non us products, you pay… in more than one way. How much more can americans take before, we the people, understand we are no longer a self-sustainable nation. This is something we should all be concerned with.

Having our federal government own and operate the auto industry makes sense.
That means NO MONEY FOR OUR MILITARY!
Hip-hip! Hoo-ray!

Please tell me, specifically, what the “dems did in the past two years” to drive up oil prices?
Honestly, I’d like to know.

Detroit is in paradigm paralysis. Both the Execs with their MBA’s, and the UAW are to blame for their lack of foresight. No bridge loan should be given. The only option for real and positive economic change is Chapt. 11 reorginization. Yes, austerity hurts for a short while, but in the years to come, a stronger and more intelligent economy evolves.

Why didn’t any one say no when the government paid 150 billion to AIG? Is this single insurance company much more important than the U.S. auto industrial to the U.S. economic? How many people does AIG employs and what does it produce? It seems that we all are so happy to rescue the wall street, but not the working people.

Anyone who opposes unions or the Democratic party is un-American.
Anyone who opposes the Big Three is un-American.
Anyone who STILL supports Bush needs to be DEPORTED.

The Dems rewrote, approved and voted for the $700 billion bailout bill, but not until they’d added another $150 billion of pork to the original bill. The Republicans voted against the financial markets bailout. The Democratic majority is solely to blame for the bailout. Now our congress wants to bail out the Big 3 knowing full well that another bailout (the Big 3 just got $25 billion as part of the $700 billion/$850 billion financial bailout, thanks to pork additive) will accomplish only a delay in the demise of the Big 3. Let this political folly, too, be solely that of the Democrats. The Democratic party couldn’t care less about the jobs or the companies. What they treasure is the votes of the UAW. Taxpayer dollars are about to be used to buy votes again.

Regardless of how one feels about the bailout, the current auto-industry mess is almost entirely due to the credit crunch, which is entirely due to non-regulation and massive, acceleration of long-term concentration of wealth, executive corruption and massive, largely unnecessary deficit spending over the past eight years. The first six years with Bush and his Republican Congrees. The last two with the record-setting fillibuster Republicans and Bush veto.

Sounds like they’re priming to pin the descent into a Depression on the Republicans for standing in the way of an auto bailout.
Opponents of a GM loan are in for a big shock if they think that letting GM stiff thousands of small business suppliers throughout the US by filing for debt protection won’t have any impact at home, no matter how far from Detroit.

Japan, Germany, South Korea, China, and Southern States (home of the foreign automakers) are against this bailout.
Their paid-for mouthpieces in congress (Sen. Shelby, et al.), the media, and on Wall St. are pushing for the collapse of the Detroit 3. Why? Duh! More money for them.
Wall St. will profit by selling off, at dirt cheap prices, the pieces of America’s home grown auto industry to the Chinese, who have plenty of our cash, said they would, and want another way of taking our money from us and enslaving us further. With the help of the crooks and lobbyists, and our stupidity, they can get hundreds of billions of dollars worth of the latest technology for pennies on the dollar. They won’t even need to spy on us ever again.
The other foreign automakers, who have been bailed-out by their own governments already and for years were playing dirty dumping games, breaking all the rules, all while being propped up by their people and their friends in congress.
The taxpayers are being fooled by those against this auto bailout/loan. $30 billion is cheap compared to the $200 billion + taxpayers WILL have to spend as a direct result of this. Try paying for that during a depression. We just gave hundreds of billions to rescue Wall St. and now Wall St. and Beijing are telling us not to help Detroit and Main Streets all over the country! And we’re not idiots for listening to these crooks!? This bailout, handout, or whatever you want to call it, is the cheapest way out of this mess! Look at the numbers!
Wake up! Why would all these smart, rich people be telling you things that will devastate the American economy and weaken America forever? In a depression, if you are sitting on hordes of cash, you can buy anything for pennies on the dollar. You think the wealth gap is huge now? Wait till these Wall St. and foreign looters buy up the country you love – while saddling you and future generations with all the losses and debt that will make their bargains of century possible. This is Shock and Awe, but against us. Look at the real numbers and consequences of not saving ourselves from these people!
If there was ever a time for a knee-jerk patriotic reaction to these traitorous agents of economic destruction, it is now. Don’t get fooled again! Call, e-mail, and fax your so-called reps or get ready to salute made in China American flags, while the President’s Communist-owned GM motorcade drives by.
Oh, and that is the least alarmist version of what is going on. But hey, we can still chant USA! USA! USA! at ballgames.

Get rid of the unions?
Do you know what happened in the days before the unions had any power?
Children were forced to work 14-hour days.
Employees had no rights, female employees were RAPED by their employers and had no voice.
UNIONS are there to see to it that the American worker is paid fairly and given health care. Why are so many American manufacturing workers lacking health care? The unions are weak.
You like that, don’t you?
That’s because you HATE America.

Dave from Oregon : “Perhaps the message should be this: Sen. Shelby, the south will never see another penny of federal money for the next 2-4 years if this bailout fails. The northern states have been propping you up for nearly 30 years and it is over.” Yes, it’s over.. because the economies of northern states are in shambles and business is all moving south. Funny how Democrats hammering businesses at every turn has that effect.

mmonroeliveson:
The $700 billion bailout was begged for by Bush and his Treasury secretary, claiming that they could re-open credit markets and that the world economy would collapse without it.
The $700 billion is roughly the same deficit the Bush administration has been running annually now for six years.
>90% of the national debt is directly rrelated to Republican administrations.
Obama is not even President yet.
By the time Bush is done, he will have more than doubled the national debt in eight years. The first six years with his rubber-stamp Republican Congress, the last two with his filluster-record-setting Senate Republicans and his veto.
The Republican party has not been the party of fiscal responsibility since Eisenhower.
Thirty years of trickle-down economics and de-regulated “free” markets have led to massively concentrated wealth, a ten-fold increase in executive pay and virtually stagnant growth at every other level, massive national debt, massive corporate corruption, massive flight of capital to offshore tax havens and the general decline of the world’s financial superpower.
The latest report projects that by 2025 the U.S. will be, at best, a “leader among equals.” Unless the Democrats can dig us out of this Republican hole.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Let the federal government bail EVERYONE out. No need to work anymore. No need for new ideas. Let’s give up on this stupid capitalism experiment and go with the socialism/communism way, it’s so much more desirable. Now, everyone repeat after me, “Kum ba ya…”

The bankruptcy period will give the 3 automakers the opportunity to reorganize and stabilize their financial base. The union will be liquidated and sent into past history, several thousand un-needed jobs will be eliminated, new leadership will emerge (hopefully) and their innovative-genius R&D group can finally heed some much needed life into a dinosaur of a company. In the beginning the economy will definitely feel the impact of the lay-offs but in the long (and short) run our economy will be better off for it.

The problem is that everything Bush touches turns to crap. Why would you trust him with $700b, that like trusting Cheaney with a gun. All these people calling for the auto industry to fail should be ashamed of themselves. 70% of our GDP is based upon spending so if they lose their jobs then that hurts the economy. While I dont agree with the top down theory of the bailout, if we dont do anything it will only make the problem worse.

Never buy the hired help a Coke or you’ll spoil ‘em. From then on they’ll expect it. The first bailout money was a mistake. Now they’re already back for more. We should have never started the bailouts. Let the nature of bad business take it’s course.

This country needs electic cars. Are we going to just give that opportunity away? Bush is buying 300 billion in stock in banks owned by his friends. If Bush is against it, then it must be a good idea.

Sean wrote: “The Dems are all about handouts”
Corporate bail-outs are a Republican construct, going back to the S&L failures, which resulted from the same failed economic policies…
In comparison, the auto-bailout is tiny. The Republicans are just trying to make political hay with it because they are out of options for pinning their financial disaster on Dems.
Even the Bush/Paulson $700B bailout, after all, is only slightly larger than Bush’s annual deficit for the past eight years.
And ALL of this is dwarfed by the $2 trillion the Fed recently lent to unnamed corporations, or the $2 trillion in future Iraq expenses over the next generation, or the $6 trillion Bush has already heaped onto the national debt, more than doubling it…

I find it funny that Bush and his rupublican rubber-stampers raised politicking over policy to a new level for 6 years. Afterwards, they conveniently reversed their ‘filibustering is evil’ stance to set new records for filibustering – a political move to prevent the dems from fixing their colossal mess.
Now this might be business as usual in Washington, but the fact that you republicans so readily identify the behavior in the dems now that your ideology has crashed and burned in historic fashion but you made excuses for it during the Bush ‘wreck our country’ 6 year tour of epic failure; makes you hypocrites of the first order.

Bail out or no bail out. It would be justified to bail out the Big three if we can get rid of the UAW…

Attempts to establish blame are fruitless. We’re all in this together and we’re here because of things done or not done by both parties for various reasons. Basically the major part of fault lies with the congress who makes the laws, appropriates all expenditures, and bears the responsibility of oversight.

Every Republican should be tried for treason against the United States of America in a kangaroo court and deported to Iraq where they can fight their war without our help.

Getting rid of the UAW will only mean poverty for workers.
The CEOs will only get more money.

Hats off to all of you driving Foreign Cars. My wife have 3 GM products and 1 Toyota. The Toyota is the biggest piece of junk I’ve ever owned. Now we may be left with this little rubber band tin can camry as the choice. American Autos do make some good stuff. I’ve got the proof.
Honda and Toyota-Brought to you by those who originally brought you Pearl Harbor.

I see a LOT of posts here that seem to be of the opinion that JOBS are a valid reason to ‘lend’ the Auto industry lots of money. This is simply asinine, anyone who even remotely supports this idea, particularly with Jobs as the primary decision factor, may as well forget calling themselves a Republican, Democrat, or ‘Independasnt’. Call yourself what you are: A Socialist.
My industry is getting hit HARD too, much harder than the Auto Industry. I’ve adapted. Things aren’t perfect for me, but in our capitalist society, the weak get weeded out, and the ones who work hard and make wise decisions float to the top of the cream.
This “weeding out the stupid/outdated/lazy/mismanaged” effect of capitalism is what made this country stronger, and simply BETTER than any other country since time began.
Here’s a cold reality: If you work for a mismanaged company, look for other work. If you . . .or an organization representing you participated in the downfall of your company . . . oh well, that sucks, but that’s life too.
I do feel for the individuals that may lose their jobs, even their homes. But this is the cost of mismanagment, be it a car company or a labor union that is mismanaged and driven by greed and selfishness.
We can’t keep bailing out mismanaged companies. Le tht echips fall where they may. It isn’t like these cars are being made for another planet. People need cars, and they will be built to supply the demand. If “the big three” go down, Toyota, Nissan, etc will be there to fill this need. WHich . . .means they’ll need to build more cars than they do now . . .which means jobs to fill this increased need for their product.
People today seem to think that our government is a giant nanny who will cover us if we blow our allowance on bubble gum and licorice.
No. We have to say NO. We have to be vigilant to avoid becoming just another socialist nation where mediocrity is forgiven, even rewarded and hard work/intelligent managment is merely looked on as a cash cow to bail out the inept, greedy corporate/union morons

EXXON Should help pay for the bailout… the big 3′s CEO’s were in bed prostituting themselves to Big oil.
The big american auto industry raked in billions selling Monster trucks and SUV’s. Yet for all those years they never even bothered to reinvest or develop anything new?
These CEO’s are 100% at fault, they are the problem. If they get bailed out they should be fired… SIMPLE AS THAT!

The bailout for the auto industry is not a Republican or Democrat issue. I’m a Republican, but I understand that there is a time for everything. This is not the time to be overly conservative. The bottom line is that every person in America will feel the collapse of the auto industry. Start thinking long term people. This is not just any old commercial business on the line. The collapse of the auto industry would be a heavy blow to America’s infrastructure. They are the focal point of thousands of other businesses that would fail along with them. We can’t afford this kind of damage to an economy that is already struggling.

ROW : “Funny how you can say that when Republicans have ruled government for the past eight years.”
Really? The governments of northern states are, and have been, Democrat controlled. Do you think it’s just a coincidence that the auto industry is building plants in the south, and closing them in the north? Northern states have, by far, the highest tax rates in the country. Educate yourself, your ignorance is making you look like a fool.

It is simply. The Democrats control the hosue now. They can pass a bailout. The Democrats control the Senate 50 to 49 (Obama resigned or it woudl be 51 to 49) (two independents align with the Democrats. So the Senate can pass the bailout now. So everyone who keeps arguing that Bush should do this or that–forget it. the Democrats can do it now. let them do it.

One of you bright folks please tell this East Texas school teacher why we bailed out the idiotic banks and the idiotic overspending homeowners that caused most of this mess, but you don’t want to bail out blue collar jobs. In my conservative neck of the Country, we call that a hypocrite. Let every one of those banks fail. NOW.
My wife and I, both school teachers, paid off our 16oo sq ft brick home in 6 years. And some of you will bail out the overspending bank and homeowners, and no one else? Guess there’s one born every minute…..

AP : If these companies were generating wealth, they wouldn’t need a bailout. These companies are LOSING money, they’re generating debt. You can live off debt for a while, but it’s not a long term solution.

Question: Will someone tell me how the auto guys will pay back the bailout. Many say it is a loan and not a give away. Ok so how do they pay it back. The only way is to make and sell cars. how will they do that. The car demand is flat and has decresed in Us form 16 million a year to aobut 10 million a year. The costs are very high labor and etc. Poeple are not workign so how do they afford a car. does the govt give everyone money so they can but a car.

When you are a passenger in a sinking ship, you pick up a bucket and start working…there will be time enough to point the finger and to fling blame. I cannot understand the southern anti-union mentality and the blame being cast on organized labor by southern political leaders. Labor in america has been the engine that powered the captalistic machine, yeah, they may need to make some concessions, but those concessions should be based on what is right and what is fair. We should remember that most americans are not investors but laborers,here we willingly assist the investor class and tear down the workers, What kind of madness is this? GIVE THEM THE HELP! Long live the american worker, and long live the UNIONS they together once made this country the greatest producer nation on earth. I for one say that if Globalism means the death knell for our manufacturing base, then to hell with globalism…before its too late!

AP; Germany is socialist, a part of the European Trade Union. Japan is headed by an emperor. Korea is a dictatorship. How dare you expect the United States government to operate according to their standards?

Ghost: The domestic automotive Industry generates over $160 Billion a year in local, state and federal taxes not to mention generates 2-3 million jobs that further support local businesses in many hundreds of communities.
THAT is cash generation.

Question: Why is Alabama Senator Shelby screaming against helping the Big 3 and wants them to die.
Answer: His state has given billions of dollars in tax free abatements to a Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes plant recently built in ALABAMA. He wins after he removes the competition and thus can increase production, since these plants are almost idle recently due to poor consumer demand!

A man was layed off.
He Got up the next morning as his coffee maker, made in India, was brewing.
He shaved with his electric shaver, made in Korea.
He turned on his TV, made in China, and watched the news.
He got dressed-clothes made in Pakistan.
Then he got in his car, made by a a Japanese company, and as he drove off, wondered why it was so hard to find a job in the good ole U S A.
Thanks foreign car company drivers. I laugh every time I see a Toyota with an American flag on the back

Has anyone called for cutting the salary of the union CEO guy who is testifying to one dollar?

Simply stated the $700 billion bailout package is specifically targeted for rescuing the financial industry, the exception being the pork barrel additive of a $25 billion appropriation for the auto industry that the auto industry already blew. It would be illegal to give any more money from that package to the auto industry. Now the Democratic congress is all over our lame duck President, urging him to violate the provisions of the legislation they passed and trying to pass the blame to him as well. Don’t worry unions, Obama’s New Party politics will soon have everyone working for the government with union scale and benefits. It’s the socialist way. That’s why socialist governments fail. Just keep on adding commitments to our government and enforce those commitments and watch our own government fail.

d of WV:
Germany, Japan and South Korea are capitolistic democracies, although, somewhat more socialistic at times than ours. North Korea is a dictatorship and Japanese emporers only have as much power as British monarchs.
The point I was trying to make is that if you look at the US economy as a business and specifically look at the auto industry as a business case, it would by wise to invest $34 billion into an industry that generattes hundreds of billion of dollars each year. Other countries take this approach out of simple logic!!!

If you are bored with the politicans psoturing on the bailout and blaming everyone else int he world and etc. check out the live O J Simpson sentencing hearings on eh internet.

howwouldiknow-It is still a foreign-based company and most of the profits go overseas. This is not hard to figure out. They are only here because the try to look American. When the others are gone, they’ll ship thiers overseas because we won’t have a choice.
Every Honda and Toyota driver can take credit for this. My wife actually bought one (Toyota) and it has been the biggest piece of tin can camry junk I have every been associated with. And that is all we might have left? They bailed the idiotic banks and homebuyers who caused most of this. I don’t get that.

For all of you who think that the UAW is to blame for this, and who want to “bust the unions,” (someone even called them UAW “THUGS”), you don’t know what you’re talking about. I worked in “pink collar” non-union jobs all my life – one with a farm implement manufacturer and one with a city. Both entities also had union workers. Each and every time the union folks negotiated a new contract, or went on strike to get better working conditions, the non-union folks then got just a little bit BETTER than what the union had negotiated. Repeating: BETTER than what the union had negotiated. Better hourly rate, maybe an additional paid sick day, maybe a bit more into our pension fund – but BETTER than what the union had negotiated. That’s just the way it is (or was).
My point is that if the unions go down, so will everyone elses working conditions, pay, benefits, etc. This country NEEDS labor unions. Without them, what will prevent businesses from reducing your pay and benefits? (And don’t think they won’t…it’s a very rare business that actually appreciates and values its employees.)
So I find the outrage at UAW pay and benefits ridiculous. Why not also list the pay and benefits of middle management and higher ups?
And while I’m at it, I’d like to know how much money advertising adds to the price of each and every vehicle. Seems like every third commercial in the evening is a car commercial.

Just a quick idea on the Big 3 auto bailout. Rather than give a large loan package to the companies themselves, there may be a better way to respond. First the government should purchase a large stake in the companies to gain control of management and force a new strategic vision. That would cost $2-$5b in stock purchases. Second, rather than loan the companies $30b+ with no guarantee of a payback, use the money to offer a $10,000 rebate per new car purchase on vehicles that meet at least a 24mpg fuel rating. This would have a three fold effect:
1. It would stimulate demand for Big 3 products and boost sales.
2. It would benefit consumers who need to make a new car purchase or want to shift into a more fuel efficient vehicle and stimulate consumer spending.
3. Motivate lenders to make auto loans since the rebate would reduce the loan to value ratio.
All stakeholders would benefit: the Big 3 would benefit from increase sales and moving current inventory, lenders would have a relatively safe market to make loans and earn a return, consumers would be able to buy a fuel efficient American automobile at a discount, and the government would benefit from a increase in the share value it’s stock purchase.

d of wv: Right now they are asking for $34 billion so they can finish restructuring over the next two years. If in two years they fail, they will have generated far more cash for the government than the 34 billion dollar investment.
If they are successful they will continue to generate money for years to come plus pay back the original 34 billion with interest. Seems pretty simple to me that congress should opt for the 34 billion and force an organized restructuring that will make them successful. It can potentially work and they payoff for the American economy is HUGE.

Calm down kids. This isn’t about being democrat or republican. It’s also not about approving of the behavior of the auto industry. And, it’s not about making comparisons to anything else that is off the topic. IT’S ABOUT BEING AN AMERICAN. Our country is perched on the edge of a major depression if the auto industry goes under. Use your heads! We elect leaders who are responsible for not allowing that to happen while they quibble with eachother. The President of the United States, regardless of the timing during his term, has no business hiding in the White House and not stepping up to the plate to save OUR COUNTRY! You all do remember that’s his JOB. Right??

Hey, Pelosi, Reid and NObama…stick it. Let the Auto folks fold and start all over. Maybe they can rebuild themselves the way we in the Airline industry had to.

The automotive industry and it’s more than 2000 suppliers create technology advances that are used in Aerospace, military and many other industries.
I would rather have our national security based on technology derived in the US rather than foriegn countries.

howwouldiknow-well your name says it all. You CAN and I DO get that kind of performance out of GM products. I have for years. My wife and I own A CAMRY and it has been a piece of junk. You see, I have personal experience with both, so it is not an idiotic rant. The Toyota has been the biggest joke of a car we have ever owned. But as I said, much of the corporate profits go overseas because that is where they are based. Stating my experience as face is not rant. But thhen again, your name clues me in.
because

Sheri: If a major airline goes in to chapter 11 bankruptcy then they will still have passengers due to captive localized monopolies and relative low cost of plane tickets.
If GM, Chrysler or Ford goes into Chapter 11 no one will buy $20-40k cars out of fear the OEM’s could go into chapter 7 and will no longer produce service parts meaning your purchased car will not work. Also, if one if the big three goes into bankruptcy many of the more than 2000 parts suppliers will soon follow which could collapse the industry.

Dem’s can take a hike to where the sun does not shine. The auto makers do NOT deserve a bailout. They had no BUSINESS coming like children whining for candy, demanding ANYTHING. Let them declare bankruptcy. I’ll buy from Honda or Volkswagon until they get their crap together!

I like chapter 11. The judge can bust the unions and the company has it done for them. It looks like ACORN organizers will have new company cars in 4 years for Obama re-election campaign.

Why do American workers place so little value on themselves and the work they perform? Why do they think that it’s okay that executives make millions while they’re lucky to make $10 to $14 an hour with limited, if any, benefits? A recent strike at American Axle in Detroit epitomizes the plight of the blue-collar workers. When all was said and done, union workers took a 50% pay cut while the CEO still walked off with his $12-million salary.
Until southern blue-collar workers lose the anti-union mentality and understand the valuable contributions they make to our overall economic health, they will continue to see their wages stagnate and income disparity will become a fact of life – the middle class is relegating itself into poverty while the rich get richer. For decades, the elite have laughed all the way to the bank while they tricked the American worker into voting against his or her own best interests by busting unions, degrading their quality of life, and convincing them that jobs will be lost if they ask for decent wages.
Those who decry socializing vital resources are the least informed members of our society. Labor costs associated with foreign automakers are often lower because the countries in which they are based provide socialized healthcare. Capitalism leads to nothing more than unmitigated greed and the concentration of wealth at the upper tiers of a society. Unions help establish a standard of living and workplace safety regulations that benefit the Greater Good instead of the good of a few. Stop devaluing yourselves, take off the blinders, and understand that if the foreign automakers take over yet another American industry, many of you will live just above the poverty line for the rest of your lives.

WOW Paul_Revere…….Your actually looking at the #1 root cause for the national problem and not just the automotive problem. Unfortunately I agree with your last statement.

Well fine. If the Republicans really want it on their record that they bailed out white collar people while sending ‘joe the plumber’ to the poorhouse, let them.
The best thing for Dems to do, from a purely mercenery point of view, would be to fight hard for the auto worker and then fail, bemoaning the callusness of the Republicans toward the common man and the ease with which Bushco gave money to Wall St.
Congress was so eager and quick to fork over $700+ Billion for the financial industry when they were in trouble… even though they don’t actually produce anything tangible. But when the auto industry — blue collar, instead of white collar — asks for a comparatively measly $30+ billion, they’re rebuffed at every turn… even though they produce something tangible. Even if the $30 billion doesn’t save them, at least we’ll have some CARS left over, rather than nothing.
If the Big Three go down, this country will never recover. The riples will tear apart communities, destroy schools, and crash our economy, and we will not be able to recover in anyone’s lifetime.
The Democrats are right on this one. They’re fighting for the average American here. The Republicans obviously couldn’t care less. They’d rather cling to their dogma than do anything prudent or practical or pragmatic.

To mmonroeliveson:
Good and well managed businesses will fail in this deep recession, and even more if we realize a depression by letting our domestic auotomobile business collapse. The problem with you ideologs is that you are clueless with respect to the interconnectedness of elements of the economy. Chaos theory will soon be a better basis for understanding what is happening than the chatter of the right wing. Monetarism has failed, unregulated capitalism has failed, neoconservative dreams have not been realized. It is now time for pragmatic solutions. The right have none to offer.

How long can people making $12-$17 per hour be expected to buy cars built for $70 per hour? The Big 3 can’t survive anyway! Laid off and unemployed are not going to buy a car. The Banks are not making loans even to people who are working. Detroit WILL fall, BUT the Japanese will be close behind, with no one ABLE to buy a car!!

Impeach Pelosi-
She is like jello when it comes to making a leadership decision-she lets it slide right off and blames President Bush for the slimy aftermath.
Get rid of Harry Reid, Chris Dodd, and Barney Frank.
I don’t understand why any voter would put these people back in the drivers seat with their records of stupid and self-interest decisions.
All I have to do is see their lips moving to remind me why I am a proud Republican.

This double standard is amazing. It is ok to bail out the big banks who made stupid decisions and overpaid their management, but not the auto companies that did the same thing? The bailouts stink to be quite frank (all of them), but it would be economic suicide to allow the banking sector to fail or allow the auto industry (which employs three million people directly or indirectly) to fail. If the government allows the auto industry to fail, then the economies of the midwest will be heavily damaged, which will ruin small businesses in the local communities and damage the national economy also. By losing our domestic auto industry, we will increase our trade deficit by record amounts and the nation will have to pay unemployment, pension, and welfare benefits to even more people. Loan them the money and make all parties in the industry make concessions to fix this important industry and save the economy

Let’s quit quibbling and politicizing this. focus on what really facts and truths and not just one side of the coin.
yes, there will be massive layoffs and job loss IF one or all of the Big 3 fail. Don’t forget the power of Chapter 11 and Reorganziation! It creates a “leaner and meaner” company with focus and attention to creating revenue and sales from satisfying the markets (what a concept, imagine).
There is no way in @#$% that the Big 3 should receive taxpayer assistance or any form of bailout.
and the union won’t be $%&@ if the Big 3 (term used loosely) fold. something of nothing still is nothing.
Believe me there are savvy investors out there mobilizing to create profit from any one or these failed or near failed business.
yeah, its an economic step back but it won’t be doom and gloom. Time for the Big 3 to face the music…if they want to continue playing then the band must reorganize.

I agree with the poster that said “why should the 700 billion only go to Wall Street”? It’s okay to help AIG and Citi but not auto? 500 thousand people lost their jobs in November and Bush wants to put even more people out of work???? What is wrong with him???? Forget about party or what will make you look good think about the good of this country you incompetent war monger!

Well, now that I’ve had my daily laugh reading all of your comments, I’ll go get my 2007 Suzi Q Gran Vitara washed and spicky span!
Oh, BTW, if I drive my car reasonably well and sensibly, I get 24-26 mpg city, and 26-32 mpg on the highway. Thanks, Suzuki…we gonna be friends for a long time.
You auto workers have had it way too good for way too long of a time. Now the party’s over and you have to clean up.
Sorry, no more money! Bye bye!
Dak!

Why do all these people keep saying that the auto workers make ONLY $28 per hour?
My mother worked for GM. When she retired in 1991 as a tool room attendant, she was making $25 per hour. These poor folks haven’t had a raise in a whole 17 years? In 40 years of work, I’ve never made more than $20 per hour, usually much less.

We have a bankrupt banking industry and a bankrupt government, both of which were, and still are, being robbed by each other… think about it.
Why don’t the incensed taxpayers who want to steal the poor UAW widow’s $6,000.00/year pension and healthcare benefits demand the jobs, pensions and healthcare benefits from those wall street, banking and insurance company thieves and their accomplices, the politicians, who are running the shame-the-UAW-circus in DC?????
Answer: Because all politicians are professional hate mongers and skilled manipulators without a conscience (like criminals), and they’ve skillfully manipulated their constituency (through a barrage of media coverage espousing concerns for the taxpayers, of all people… what a joke that is…) into expressing their hate for a predominately black segment (racial hate is very, very powerful) of the working class (UAW) in order to destroy a union while they still control the bankruptcy courts (and you thought you were living in a democracy with a fair judicial system).
NOTE: Republicans hate unions because unions only want to ‘redistribute’ wealth more equitably.

unholy33 said “What’s wrong with socialism?
There are no poor people under socialism.”
Maybe you’d better read up on what socialism is… there are ONLY poor people under socialism.

Bush and the Republicans have literally wasted nearly a trillion taxpayer dollars on their Iraq misadventure. And they are STILL burning through in excess of $2 billion per week on the Iraq quagmire – a creature entirely of Bush and the Republicans’ creation. And now they’re actually quibbling about a lousy $41 billion to save the most important remaining industry in this country?!?!? That’s not even two months’ worth of feeding the black hole of Iraq. Talk about idiotic! Can we still get Bush impeached immediately?????

The hole Economic down turn is the fult of Republican Neocon party in the first place an yes they do deserve blame for the failing of Americas Economy!!!

Tom,
Your numbers are not making sense. The GM production can not physically disappear tomorrow. Someone will be buying it and retooling it, or have it sold off in pieces. Whatever happens, if the consumer demand for cars are still there, they will be buying cars. To the extent that some other manufacturer can meet that demand more efficiently and turn a profit, the government will actually collect a tax on income without fronting anything.
GM is not breaking even. It’s losing billions of dollars every quarter. That’s why it’s asking for a bail out. The losses that GM makes now will negatively affect government tax income in the following years. If the consumer demand for cars is there, the suppliers to GM can sell parts to some other manufacturers fulfilling that demand. If the consumer demand is not there, then what’s the point of having parts makers and GM churning out products that nobody wants? Why not just let the taxpayers give all them a shovel and go dig holes in the ground.

JonggMaster,
The government doesn’t have money lying around somewhere to do all those bailouts. All the money comes from inflating money supply, i.e. debasing the money that savers and successful producers have. All govoernment bailouts are in effect robbing companies that make products that people do want to prolong the angony at companies that waste resources churning out goods that people do not want. If the government keeps doing that, chaos will be the inevitable reality.
There is a reason behind all economic acitivies: creating value by turning less expensive input factors into products/services that other people want more than they do the input factors. The Big-3 have clearly failed in that regard. It makes no sense for them to continue taking up so much natural resources and human labor, and keep polluting the enviornment, just to churn out cars that pile up on dealer lots. Someone else needs to step in and put the natural resources and human labor to better use.

Can anybody give me a reason Citibank got 20 billion last week without a question raised or asking??????…..and Big 3 get grilled for asking. They would not be asking if the banks were loaning money.
Keep preaching your hatred and none of you will be driving your foreign cars when you don’t have jobs. Live American, buy American, be an American.

No bailout for the Big3 means disaster for our economy. The idiots posting here sat silently as congress handed out Trillions to the wall street boys and said nothing. Now that it is a bunch of blue collar folks looking for a helping hand, these same bimbos scream at the top of their deceitful voices: NO WAY! Why? They have been brain washed into believing that “true” work is performed by these robber barrons on wall street and not the hard working folks out in the factories throughout the country. We in this country allowed the textile industry to vanquish – drive out into the rural areas of SC, GA, and MS and we will see the horrific devastation left behind. In these communities there is no tax base to support the local schools, children growing up in poverty, and all the other symptoms of poverty.
I’m an EE and have spent my entire life in a white collar environment but I only have to look within my own family to see the hardship resulting from this misplaced set of values.
I urge all of you to be a bit more thoughtful and stop bashing folks that might earn their living by working on a factory floor or in some other blue-collar capacity such as furniture making.

NEW UAW HIRES at GM 401(k) program…..GM wil contribute $1 per compensated hour into all new hires 401k plans…..So $40 dollar a week X 52 weeks a year = $2,080.00 that GM puts into your retirement accout. INDEPENDENCE DAY WEEK SHUTDOWN PAY…THAT IS RIGHT PAY…… The Independence Day week shutdown at GM…During the week of the Independence Day Holiday, seniority UAW workers wil receive 4 days (32 hours) OFF at their REGULAR rate of pay, including shift and seven-day operation premiums. Eligibility is unchanged from the 2003-2007 agreement. Over the term of the proposed agreement, the 32 hours of shutdown pay are worth an average of $950 each year for a typical GM assembler.

Just watched Barney Frank on CNN. They have reached a compromise and will vote next week. Should pass, no problem. $15 Billion to be released in short time from the $25 billion originally allocated for green re-tooling. That money will be replaced in a few weeks. A more long term strategy will be worked out after 1/20/2009. YES!

No plan B!! A fitting epitaph. Get out of the way Nancy and Frank they are going down.

Why are we in this turmoil? How many years did the auto makers live in excess, being paid millions of dollars each year that the companies earned a profit and receiving multi-million dollar bonuses, even in the past few years they have received these bonuses when their companies were not profiting. Workers are paid whether they work or not, and are paid extremely well, up to one third as much as the foreign car companies who were building their factories in the USA.
The executives are not focusing on the future thinking they can continue business as usual forever. Again the foreign car companies took the high road and outperform GM, Ford, and Chrysler by developing highbred vehicles and again US manufacturers are playing catch up and loosing market share.
What ever happened to the American advantage. I believe we have great minds in the US but their ideas are not being heard. We need innovation in the auto industry and if they can’t hack it, they should just close their doors.
Why is the failure of our auto manufacturers and their ability to survive up to the American taxpayer, or the Democrat, Republican, politician to bail them out. The US does not subsidize their auto manufacturers like many other countries do. Perhaps low cost loans will help them to survive, but it is not our obligation to bail out everyone that cries.
I feel bad for the millions of families that could be affected by this troubled industry, but they too should have been preparing for this type of event.

AtlantaBill,
SC, GA and MS were never textile centers of the US. The northeast mill towns were. The poverty you see in SC, GA and MS is the direct result of the inequitable monetary system that we have. Whenever the FED creates new money, the government contractors and bankers get to spend the money first therefore experience the least of the detrimental effect of inflation; the farmers down south are the last in line to get and spend that new money, therefore feel the full brunt of savings/wealth destruction caused by government monetary debasement. That’s part of the very purpose of the federal monetary system, otherwise what do you think makes the entire country to send food and other resources to those parasites in DC and NYC? It costs them nothing to print up the funny looking paper, and you are forced at gun point to exchange the fruit of your labor for those funny papers. “Bailouts” are just schemes to spread some of those funny papers to their cronies . . . all which means someone will get the fruit of your labor for nothing!

The Democrats are trying to force to keep a promise that their candidate made? I once had a Cadillac that cost twice the price in repairs as the sticker price. I gave it away last year with less than 80,000 miles on it and not a dent or flaw and new tires. Now the guy who has it can’t keep it on the road either, and he is a mechanic! The Big 3 make shoddy products and have scared away their base customers. Let’s not keep throwing money at them like I did that Cadillac! I never hear complaints from Lexus owners!

The UAW was responsible for much of what is wrong with the Big 3. Let them bailout the auto makers. If each union member loaned $10,000 to the auto makers the immediate financing problem would be resolved. It would also provide an incentive for the union to act responsibly, which they have not in a very long time.
No bailout with our tax dollars.

any money including the wallstreet buyout. will be spent to fatten the pockets of the already wealthy.our gov buys everything at a inflated price( 500$ hammers) what makes us think they can make good business judgements. I for one think the dems screwed this country up by letting all our jobs go accross the borders.shut down this practice and people in the u.s. get more jobs. nafta was the beginning of the end for our economy. thanks democrats

The auto industry in America is OK, the industry in Detroit is defunct and neanderthal. My guess is that when the dems are done paying back the UAW Uncle Sam will have been on the hook for 200 billions and Toyota will still be number 1.

Dems? Who cares what the dems want? They’re not going to be in office next term anyway. If you voted for any sort of bailout, you’ll have to go to work next term. You’re outta here.

We are caught by our own education system. God said not to seek after riches. The goal in life is not employment; that has brought the world problems including the financial crisis, energy crisis and auto industry crisis.
If we repaired the auto industry, we would continue the same destructive lifestyle that is killing us physically, emotionally and spiritually.
The gaol is not employment; it is a retirement lifestyle where our time is our own to create a garden paradise where the trees, plants and animals give food in our neighborhoods.
If we did this in 1929, we would not have the world problems we see now: pollution, global warming, energy crisis, food crisis, poverty, disease, war, immigration, drugs and crime, and child care, elder care, and health care systems.
The Global Climate Change Talks are going on in Poland now trying to solve these problems. We do not need to put more road-blocks in the way.

Take the money for the Big 3 out of the TARP funds. AIG execs will just have to skip a few executive retreats and bonuses.

I see people commenting that they will be losing thier jobs if the auto industry files chapter 11. They say they “only” make 40 an hour. Here is the simple math. The median income for families in the US is $48,201, thats a hair over $24 an hour. Thats about what I make. The UAW has priced their workers out of competitivness. I work in the airline business. I still have a job just like countless thousands of others. Let the Auto companies file bankrutpcy, reorganize, become stronger. Stop paying exorbitant rates for labor. Whats next? McDonalds asking for a government bailout because thier workers dont make $25 an hour?

To BMP: The autoworkers get $25.00 an hour just like you do. How about we cut both (You and the UAW) your wages to $10.00 an hour would you agree to that???? I did not think so….Because you all hate the Union so much how about everyone take a 50% pay cut including the Union workers How does that sound??? Not one of you whiners would do that would you???
I am amazed at all the people that want the big 3 to fail. You people are the same idiots that think We have a real oil shortage. (NOT) That $5.00 a gallon gas was because of a severe shortage (not) and We should just continue giving Citi and AIG Billions NO QUESTIONS ASKED?? What is it going to take to get Citi and AIG execs grilled?? There are a slew of much better run banks then Citi,So why $300 billion for them.You also bash the Union, If it were not for the Union EVERYONE in this country would be making $1.00 an hour. Those wages that the autoworkers make have caused you NON union people to get a better wage also. Otherwise I wish you all agreat time on 52 weeks of unemployment!! You deserve it. Enjoy watching AIG hold big lavish parties at YOUR expense while you no longer have a job. Oh I forgot maybe Senator Shelby can introduce you to his favorite Japanese companies in Alabama and MAYBE you can get a job paying $22.00 an hour in Alabama..

to joe b
i have already taken my paycut, and yes almost 50%. how about you?

so how much does the UAW ceo make? Let him accept $1.00 per year and reduce the costs.

Westinghouse Pitsburgh announced 15 years ago, “America is not a country for Manufacturing” “America is Sales and Service”. They annouced then selling the lamp business to Phillips, and large turbines & generators to Siemens. I sold Westibghouse Air Cond.
So now when you drive in USA you see Shopping malls, instead of factories.
The big 3 auto makers will fail next.

maybe not air line industry… how bout the big 3 rail road companies or maybe trucking industry. either one of them go under you’ll see the US come to a complete stop!!

I believe that it is high time that a graph be created and published that breaks down where all the money goes. a nice bar graph for each car, that breaks down the cost by concept development, engineering, assembly planning, tooling up, raw material purchase, purchased parts, assembly labor, marketing, management and executive pay. lets go back in time and show how these contributed to he cost of the vehicles in the past. Let us see the trends in the expenses and costs and compensations. let us see the diffrence between labor costs and executive compensation. Let’s see what tunes people sing then. my bet is that it will be an easy sell that the executives can afford to, and should be required to, fund the bailout that is required as the result of their own decisions and guidance. At least that’s my guess. Can someone provide this?