Jerry Brown’s Prop. 8 Reversal

Haha, he said oral arguments….

What a political hero! What a fool! I certainly know who not to vote for. A public servant should honor the will of the people and not overturn it for political gain. All voters/supporters who voted for Prop 8 should unite and not vote for Jerry Brown!

If the majority of citizens got to vote on the abolition of slavery, Brown v. The Board of Education, The Civil Rights Act of 1964 etc. etc. what do you think the outcome would have been?
Leadership sometimes means actually leading, and jurisprudence doesn’t mean pandering to organized ‘religous’ bigot mob rule.
So, good for Jerry Brown…who is showing more b-lls than Obama and lets hope the California Supreme Court does what it is supposed to do, stand for what is right, not for what is popular.

liberal moron…..the people’s voice does not rule as was the case with illegal immigration, marijuana legalization and now this………

I took an amendment to the US Constitution to give blacks the vote. The US Constitution is the document that spells out the inalienable rights. You can’t make up a new right without modifying the document. Gay marriage is a new right. It redefines what marriage is and gives rights based on actions, not characteristics. The will of the people should stand. Gays have the right to marry a member of the opposite sex, not whomever they wish. If that were true, Mormans could marry as many spouses as they wish legally. Or a man could marry his sister or mother. You might as well saying being an alcoholic is a right and you can’t go to jail for drinking too much. What is the difference?

Equating gays wanting to marry with slavery is a ridiculous argument. You have obviously fallen for the gay tactic of making gay marriage an issue equal to slavery. I am against gay marriage, so it their eyes, I automatic “HATE” gays. Another of their tactics, guilt.

You are right Jeff. Skin color does not equate to behavior. That is why the Willy Horton add was so bad.

Seems like some people need an EDUCATION in constitutional rights. State laws cannot conflict with the Federal Constitution, no matter who votes for it. The fact it is voted on means nothing- it’s the substance that counts. Prop 8 violates the 14th Amendment, bottom line.

TJB: Gay marriage is not a new “right”. It’s clear you don’t even know what a “right” is. Pay attention to the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment and therein lies all you need to know [Section 1]

thomas jefferson strongly stated that ‘the majority should never be able to vote on the rights of the minority’… hence, the constitutional rights of gays should be equal to those of straights… civil rights is not up for ‘votes’… this is great news!

Democrats lose a vote fair and square and rather than accept the result, they go to court to overturn the will of the people. This is getting real familiar.

If same sex marriage is allowed because not to do so would be to allow discrimination on the basis of sex, why should polygamy not be allowed on the basis not to do so would be discrimination on the basis of religion?
Isn’t it just as much my right to have 10 wives?

JR:
Who’s the nitwit?! The people spoke and the minority lost who voted for McCain/Palin. This is democracy 101 dummie – live with it! Just like we’ve got to live with Obama now. Just like we had to live with 8 years of Clinton. Just like in CA the vote failed making parental know about of their underage girls desire for having an abortion. It lost and gay marriage lost – accept it just like we have to accept crazy liberal laws. This is democractic America not communist China!

Of course it is, Present. But because you don’t accept their argument you must be a “homophobe”.

@earthisnotflat
They have rights equal to everyone else. They want new rights. That is a totally different ball game. Same-sex marriage is wrong. It is wrong on any level you care to name.

It’s amazing how many, otherwise rational, capable people just don’t get it.
Words MEAN something.
Psychologist does NOT mean Psychiatrist.
Pediatrician does NOT mean Pedophile.
Marriage does NOT mean Polygamy.
Marriage does NOT mean any type of “legal” union between two people of the same sex.
We’ve already beny Homosexual into “Gay”. Gay used to mean something else entirely.
How would you folks like it if we started a movement to redefine the word Gay to mean Subhuman. You know they aren’t, I know they aren’t, but hell, why not change the word JUST because we want too? Any percieved loss of rights can be remedied by law. Single people should get the same “rights” shouldn’t they? Gays get the same “rights” as singles now.

humm, an AG (government employee)trying to overturn the legal vote of the people, by the people, for the people. how rich!
what is it called when the government overrides the legally binding votes of it’s citizens?
hint, it isn’t a democratic republic.

Why should this proposition be overturned? The majority of the people of California voted yes on 8. The last time I checked, the definition of democracy was according to the vote and will of the people. Last time I checked, the Supreme Court and the constitution were put in place to guarantee our rights. People must face facts, the will of the majority is that marriage be between a man and a woman. If this gets overturned because it violates constitutional rights, then why not overturn Roe v Wade since it violates the most important constitutional right of anyone – the right to life!

The US Constituion doesn’t say anything about marriage. That’s my point. It is not a right. As such it is not guaranteed by the consitution. We have marriage defined in our civil law. BUt we still outlaw certain marital practices and no one is complaining that not being able to marry your sister violates the 14th amendment.

Geez, sleeping with 12 year old girls or robbing a bank might make me happy. Is that OK?

There’s a really simple answer to all this. Government shouldn’t recognize “marriage” AT ALL! Leave “marriage” for the church to recognize. States should only recognize “unions” between two persons and that’s it – Everyone’s happy :)

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Exodus 22:19
19Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 18:22
22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 18:23
23Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
Leviticus 20:13
13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 20:15
15And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
Leviticus 20:16
16And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

So the argument is that a Constitution that provides for amendment cannot be amended when it goes against the opinion of a minority? Since the US Constitution itself had to specifically forbid specific amendments to it I’d say that goes against the law of the land that legally proposed and ratified amendments have no restrictions.

Qazi: What does the bible say about slavery? Do you adhere to that too, or just the things you want to?

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT SLAVERY
1. Exodus 2:23
During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God.
Exodus 2:22-24 (in Context) Exodus 2 (Whole Chapter)
2. Exodus 13:3
Then Moses said to the people, “Commemorate this day, the day you came out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery, because the LORD brought you out of it with a mighty hand. Eat nothing containing yeast.
Exodus 13:2-4 (in Context) Exodus 13 (Whole Chapter)
3. Exodus 13:14
“In days to come, when your son asks you, ‘What does this mean?’ say to him, ‘With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Exodus 13:13-15 (in Context) Exodus 13 (Whole Chapter)
4. Exodus 20:2
“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Exodus 20:1-3 (in Context) Exodus 20 (Whole Chapter)
5. Deuteronomy 5:6
“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Deuteronomy 5:5-7 (in Context) Deuteronomy 5 (Whole Chapter)
6. Deuteronomy 6:12
be careful that you do not forget the LORD, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Deuteronomy 6:11-13 (in Context) Deuteronomy 6 (Whole Chapter)
7. Deuteronomy 7:8
But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 7:7-9 (in Context) Deuteronomy 7 (Whole Chapter)
8. Deuteronomy 8:14
then your heart will become proud and you will forget the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Deuteronomy 8:13-15 (in Context) Deuteronomy 8 (Whole Chapter)
9. Deuteronomy 13:5
That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
Deuteronomy 13:4-6 (in Context) Deuteronomy 13 (Whole Chapter)
10. Deuteronomy 13:10
Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Deuteronomy 13:9-11 (in Context) Deuteronomy 13 (Whole Chapter)
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You Homosexuals want to ruin the world, with your unnatural behavior, plus wanting to impose on us to accept you sickening sexual behavior or preference. You want to have same sex relationship? Have it fools! But don’t look for the State or the people to accept it. Do what you want but don’t ruin our society because of your sick sexual preferences. Even nature disapproves you. You notice same sex can have children? What’s next? You will protest to nature to give you children? Oh stupid! You homosexuals are. But you know what you are doing, You have some powerful people including the media on your side, I believe these people are working for the prince of darkness, But like Sodom & Gomorrah God will Judge our country and our stupid Politian’s y things go your foolish and sick ways.

I suppose it depends how one defines the “state constitution’s inalienable rights”. Is marriage considered an inalienable right? (I honestly don’t know the answer). If so, is it defined in the state constitution as the right only between a man and woman? I think this is a very interesting argument. Personally I cannot understand why we should allow government interference in the decision of a couple to marry – regardless of sexual orientation. I understand that the Bible is clear that marriage is between a man and woman (for those that argue otherwise – read Exodus) but even as a Christian, I also understand that the Bible is not the foundation of the laws of this country.

Thisjustmightmeansthatit’llbethepeople’srepresentativethat’lltakethistothesupremecourtinsteadofthegay’srepresentativeokayoutrytypingwithoutusingthespacebar

Qazi: Uh, you left quite a bit out. You know, how to treat your slaves, what to do if you put one of their eyes out, when to release them. Exodus 21:1-4, Deutoronomy 15:12-18, Exodus 21:7, Exodus 21: 20-21, Leviticus 25:44-46, etc, etc. But you ignored that for some reason, WHY? Oh yeah, because you are a HYPOCRITE!!

Oh, Seah, and others who think like you. You’re so uninformed. Science continues to confirm that homosexuality is not a preference but a genetically, scientifically determined thing. If gay folks had a choice, as any gay person will confirm, they’d choose the easier path of being straight. Your “abnormal sexual behavior” argument doesn’t hold water, either. We straight people can engage in those very same “abnormal” practices and still be married. You and people like you never seem to realize that simple fact.
I’m with Eric, California. I think the government ought to be out of the marriage business entirely and sanction only legal unions between two people of whichever gender and sexual prefernce. Churches can be in the business of “marriage” and make individual choices about whether or not they will marry two gay people. Makes eminent separation-of-church-and-state sense to me. Eventually, I think we’ll operate under that system and look back and realize how silly the whole “gay marriage” debate was.

And if homosexuality is “unnatural”, how comes it happens IN NATURE, IN THE WILD? Are the animals choosing to do it???? Durrrrr…

Un-united Socialist America…we will soon succumb to the will of the socialist…..the great experiment known as a Democratic Government will be no more!

So Contitutional rights to protect sexual perversions. Niceley done!

When did “marriage” become a “religious” right? There have been forms of marriage for thousands of years, long before modern religion raised it’s ugly head. Marriage is about legal status, legal decision making and responsibility before the law, not religious ceremony. My wife and I have been married for 39 years, since we stood before a “judge” that married us. There was no religion involved, does that make us any less married, I don’t think so and neither does the law.

surfbox30:
Homosexuality in nature is an anomaly. We’ve seen reports of children born with several legs in India that needed operations, children born with a tumor in their head that had a fully formed foot, again needed an operation.
Kittens born with two faces – an anomaly. Just because it is ‘witnessed’ doesn’t make it the norm.

Let’s see, if the people don’t like freedom of the press, let’s vote to allow government censorship; if the people don’t like guns, they should be allowed to take away that 2nd amendment right; if the people want to establish a single church (let’s say the Roman Catholic Church just for the fun of it), then they should be allowed to do so by initiative petition. Why not allow such choices, it’s the people’s will isn’t it. Must be, its OK to take away peoples right to marry. Allowing an initiative like Prop 8 to stand could have unintended consequences.

Only in California would this nutjob be the chief law enforcement officer. This is the first time I’ve ever heard of a state attorney general arguing before a court that state law, which he is sworn to uphold and enforce, duly passed by the people or their elected representatives, is unconstitutional. It is not the role of an attorney general to file a lawsuit seeking a declaration that the state’s law is unconstitutional. It’s his job to enforce the law, pure and simple.
It was a sorry day in America when judges stepped outside their proper role of construing and applying the laws passed by the people and their elected representatives and appointed themselves social policy engineers. Judicial activism, whether it be conservative activism or liberal activism, thwarts the will of the majority and is wrong. The people need to hold activist judges accountable and demand they be removed from office.

Religion is a “life style”, homosexuality is biology.
Personally I find evangelicals perverse, they “choose” to live the way they do and should be banned from our society.

sgg: it’s an anomaly everywhere by definition, so? I never said it was the norm, it’s quite obvious it isn’t the norm, by definition. The point is, animals do it, which means many of you think these animals are making a choice to do it, by your own logic.

JR: Good point.

No court should overturn the will of the people ,THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN , MARRIAGE IS A UNION BETWEEN A MAN AND WOMAN NOT TWO GUYS IN A DRESS OR TWO WOMAN IN THREE PIECE SUITS. Civil Unions are what is best for the Homosexual Community . Stop forcing this on Society no one is stopping you from being gay but leave marriage alone it’s in trouble enough without your help.

This guys got it right. The state constitution clearly states that majority votes can not over-turn inalienable rights. Its as simple as that, if everyone is granted an inalienable right, then guess what, one group of people can not vote to take that away. I suggest everyone read the writing of Thomas Jefferson. He goes over this issue again and again in his writings on the US Constitution. Its simple equality. Why can not people accept that? Besides, who gave the christian right the ownership of marriage?

JR:
We’re talking NATURAL LAW here as the basis for banning gay marriage not INSTITUTIONAL LAW. Marriage between one man and one woman became institutionalized because it was widely accepted as the natural form. This is why mormon men get arrested for having several wives – it is against the natural law of marriage which has been formalized into institutional law. More than one wife is wrong. Marrying my mother is wrong. Men marrying men is wrong. Nobody’s ‘picking’ on gays just as nobody’s ‘picking’ on mormons who want more wives. Just as nobody’s picking on men who want to marry their sister. Marriage is institutionally defined because it has already been naturally defined as btw one man and one woman.
Today we have people trying to turn things on its head and force the world to overturn what is natural. What the gay marriage proponents want to do is redefine institutional law so that the world accepts it as natural law.

First off: this was voted by the same majority that voted for BHO for president. So, if those same people voted for BHO, and voted AGAINST gay marriage, does that make them less Democratic?
Second: If this was put into the state constitution, as is Missouri’s amendment that abolishes all forms of abortion (thank you ACLU for the injuntion against it so we are the only state in our area that allows it), and the state supreme court sides with the voters, then anything else the gay-rights activists and this guy can do to it STOPS. If you must know, the supreme court cannot touch the state constitutions. That was a right given to us by the forefathers before us. So, if the state courts say screw you and accepts the people…which what they SHOULD do, then all this arguing will be moot.
Third: can someone tell me why we haven’t arrested any of these nutjobs that have been vandalizing churches and the sort and charging them with HATE crimes???

Freedom of speech eh?

Christian right to Marriage? Have you not looked at other religions? Most of the worlds religions see marriage between a man and woman. Its about raising a family with children. Prove to me where a children need BOTH SAME SEX parents to raise them? Can a homosexual man take care of the needs of a girl reaching puberty? Can a lesbian take care of a boy who reaches puberty? Remember, HOMOSEXUALITY cannot propagate so it must adopt to propagate, recruit their numbers. You will sexually abuse these children to promote your lifestyle. Stop sticking you stinky sphinxter in our faces, we’re all tired of smelling you stinky crap. Remember, there is a pot at the end of every Rainbow, and the pot I see at the end of the gay rainboe is a toilet.

If same sex marriage is allowed because not to do so would be to allow discrimination on the basis of sex, why should polygamy not be allowed on the basis not to do so would be discrimination on the basis of religion?
Isn’t it also my inalienable right to have 10 wives?

Who is practicing Polygamy? That is against the law. The law states marriage of one man to one woman. Do not twist the facts of nature, evolution, and religion to you sickening desire to play with fecal matter. We are seeing Government usurp power over its citizens. Remember, Caligula was one of the worst Emperors in Rome and was a homosexual himself and had slaves for sex. So as I see, History has proved to me that being Homosexual does not do anything to benefit people.

mm wrote “I hate liberals with all of my heart.” Conservatives are filled with hate, hate, hate … it is that festering, judgmental, “holier than thou” attitude that would ruin this country, if it were permitted to go unchecked by reasonable … liberal … Americans.

I worked with Gays, and they were harrasing a co-worker, trying to convince him that he was gay! Pure sexual harassment and they were getting away with this and my co-worker who they were harassing was getting very depressed. They would not stop until he gave in to their harassment! I turned and said to him, they just want your rear end. He perked up and said, “YOUR ABSOLUTELY RIGHT”, from then on he fought back against their taunts. Good to say, I made a few enemies that day when I stepped in to help a friend from being harassed!

If the majority with brown eyes vote that the minority with blue eyes can’t marry, would you expect those with blue eyes to simply accept the will of the majority without a fight? As Jerry Brown wrote, “The amendment process cannot be used to extinguish fundamental constitutional rights.” And to Mr Twisted, this isn’t about sex, it’s about love … perhaps you should lift your mind out of the gutter.

Yes, single straight parents, and they deep down, wished they had a mate of the opposite sex to help. Even rely upon their parents as well. I’ve seen this. You cannot change my view! I am proving to people who get o blog your truths, bringing them all out to see what you all really are!

Here you go Twister:
Homosexual behavior in animals refers to the documented evidence of homosexual or trans gender behavior in non-human animals. Such behaviors include sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding, and parenting. Homosexual and bisexual behavior are widespread in the animal kingdom: a 1999 review by researcher Bruce Bagemihl shows that homosexual behavior, has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them. Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms, even within the same species

God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
This has (zero) nothing at all to do with civil rights.

Where is the gay gene? Many of you were sexually assaulted when you were young. This I know is VERY TRUE!

Hey gays/liberals, homosexuallity is not a race! Homosexuallity is a lifestyle choice! This is another reason the black community opposes your actions. We get sick of listening to you act like you were the ones who were enslaved. And don’t act like the mormons were the ones responsible for this. It’s real easy to protest and shout obscenities at people who will ignore it outside their churces. Just come on down to one of our churches if you would like a more lively experience.

surfbox30:
Animals react, whereas humans rationally decide. This is what separates us from animals – our ability to reason. To try to equate humans w/animals and then make laws and legislature based on this erroneous ideology is itself an injustice. Banning gay marriage is not the injustice here.

After Canada legalized same-sex marriage, Prime Minister Paul Martin commissioned a $150,000 study to debunk the polygamy argument. Big mistake: The study confirmed the scare tactic by recommending that Canada repeal its anti-polygamy law.
It also suggested that a legal challenge to Canada’s anti-polygamy laws would succeed. “Why criminalize behavior?” asked Martha Bailey, one of the study’s three law-professor authors.
The study recognized the “strong association between polygamy and gender inequality.”
Don’t think for a second we’re not headed here.

No, your wrong. Homosexuals are more prevalent in cheating than a straight person. I have come from many generations of ancestors, who never divorced.

“I have come from many generations of ancestors, who never divorced.”
Posted by: Mr Twister
Were they EVER married in the first place?

The pure amount of ignorance and hate in this thread astounds me. I didn’t think it was possible for so many people to hate something so blindly that they are willing to just ignore reality so they don’t have to face facts. I’m ashamed of what our country has become if these spiteful, frightened, hating bigots are all we have left as citizens.

Yes they were married, its all documented in marriage certificates and goes back to the 1300′s.

Reading more of these posts I amamzed at the phenomenal lack of actual knowledge vs inuendo and bigoted misinformation there is here.
First off, many of you do not understand that homosexuality is NOT pedophilia.
The molesting of children is a social and psycholgical disease, Homesexulity is not a disease or a learned response. Neither is transgenderism. These are genetically based and the physical evidence has been found in many recent studies around the world.
Some of the best parents I have seen and been involved with in church etc have been gay parent. One because they truly love the kids, provide well for them and teach them that they must be open and understanding of others- even homophobic bigots.
If you want to outlaw something that is really detrimental to society, outlaw stupidity. Make everyone who is physically capableof having a baby pass an IQ test, parenting test, financial security test, and drug test That should rule out a lot of non qualified bigoted idiots right there.

While I understand that prop-8 got a majority vote, this issue is more akin to a constitutional amendment than simply a voter approved law. I admit I don’t know much about California law, but to amend the US Constitution requires quite a lengthly and difficult process. The is because unlike law, changing the basic framework is very serious business. I would therefore expect that a 2/3 majority would be required rather then a simple majority.Some states require several affirmative votes spread over a certain time period before the constitution is changed.

Let the F$g$ have civil unions so I don’t have to hear about this anymore. Brown wants to overturn what the voters voted for – I don’t think it will work.

I’m very content and happy. Are you happy with yourselves? Apparrently not.

The amendement to the state constitution was passed according to the laws of the state. If someone wants to repeal the law they too can follow the same process.
If government refuses to listen to the voters then the voters will sooner or later pickup their guns and get their point across in a more direct manner. This is dangerous stuff – trying to invalidate a vote just because you disagree with it.

I fail to understand why the religious right is so judgemental on this issue. Does allowing gays and lesbians to marry have any bearing on their lives? How would they feel if their religion was legislated out of existence?
I believe in allowing people to do what they want when it comes to consenting adults without interference from others of the courts. The act of marriage is between two people, it doesn’t matter what sex they are as long as they consent to it. We need more tolerance and less judgement.

YOU are trying to legislate our religion out of existence.
sheesh..

califorina should change its name from the golden state to the weirdo state.

The mormons once had an extermination order (HIT) put on them by the government. Who has been persecuted more than that for what they believe in? Get down off your crosses gays!

What are you people afraid of? If you don’t believe that gays should marry, then don’t marry one! Denying gays the same economic advantages of marriage as straight people enjoy is simply discrimination, pure and simple. The argument about ‘propagating the species’ went out the window when the population of earth surpassed, oh maybe, a billion people or so. Homosexuality occurs in nature, and it’s been around for as long as humans have been around. I was always taught that the Christian God is a tolerant God. Too bad his followers aren’t…..

SURFBOX: If you are serious, there was a study done (and replicated many times) a few years back. What they did was set up a colony of rats that contained plenty of food, room, shelter etc. They gradually increased the number of rats in the colony without increasing the amount of space available to the animals. At first, they did not notice any aberrant behaviour. However, as the population increased and the animals became more and more stressed, they noticed homosexual behaviour beginning to appear. As the population stress increased, so did the instances of abnormal behaviour. They are just rats, of course, and this MAY not happen in other animals. BUT—– humans frequently respond inappropriatly to stress also. Any correllation?? Who knows?

When there is no law, there is no sin, where there is no sin, there is no consequence. Tell mme know, how does a civilization survive when all is let loose to do whatever one pleases? One thing leads to another. Rome fell for that exact same reason. If it had not, we could be in deep space traveling on the Enterprise.

The liberals will continue their tyrannical tactics just like trying to steal a Senate seat in Minnesota. Time for people to wake up.
Also the idiot that quoted Bible verses regarding slavery needs to read the verses. The Bible does not promote slavery. It was part of daily life so of course it would be mentioned. On the other hand homosexual acts were specifically prohibited.
Most heteros that are OK with homosexuality are such hypocrites. They publicly support it but privately find it disgusting which is natural.

Nope, if Homosexuality is Genetically purer that heterosexuality, Exolution would have chosen that path. Sorry, its been 4.6 billions years, plenty of time to make it work. Guess it didnt. Sorry, evidence is stacked against you. It is a choice for sexual desire.

Most homos are athiests anyway who if they find the time, study Christian religions simply to look for holes so they can use peoples faith against them. If you ask me, that’s what hate is. They think that if we believe the teachings of God then we hate. What a backwards little club.

jon samuel – Thank you for doing so much to educate us all, regarding God’s law. I have learned a great deal from your posts here, and I’ll try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate, right?
But, I do need some advice from you, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
Also, I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is… eternal and unchanging.

Ignorant. It I who see you that is ignorant. you have fallen asleep at the wheel and are about to crash this bus head on with all of us on it because you say that the yellow double line is a passable one.

Minority is a buzz word used to refer to
blacks, Jews, or Asians or those
discriminated based on skin color or ethnic background, neutral features, not behavior based.
In the past, whites and blacks were not allowed to intermarry. This law was based purely on the neutral factor of skin colors and was rightfully struck down by the Supreme Court in ’67 in “Loving vs Virginia” case.
Marriage is defined as between one man and one woman. I, for one, along with the majority here will fight to keep it that way.

I want to marry my goat. It’s a male goat so I am claiming the same righteous indignation as the homosexuals on this blog. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to marry an animal if marriage no longer means anything? For that matter, why shouldn’t I be allowed to marry more than one person? Isn’t that just making a value judgment on bi-sexuals?
People making the argument for gay marriage are fools. Marriage is about creating the next generation and hopefully having positive role models from each gender. Gays cannot provide a role model for the other gender and they damage children through their own selfishness when they adopt.

Thats right, you got America on this Magic bus.

Smack, LOL.. Funny.

Sorry, I can attest to the fact that I have not done drugs.

Not even inhaled!

@ James: is a greater than 50% divorce rate really the best thing for our next generation?

Homosexuals appear to want to legislate acceptance of their lifestyle instead of earning that acceptance and respect. I don’t respect that approach! It is cowardly and shows that even homosexuals know their lifestyle does not reaffirm what is means to be human.

Kloppenator said “@ James: is a greater than 50% divorce rate really the best thing for our next generation?”
50% is better than the 0% of homosexual relationships that can provide a role model for BOTH genders.

nanameow:
It has been physiologically and psychologically proven that homosexuality is how a person is born, not made. It’s not caused by the
environment one is raised in, and it is not a conscious choice.
********************
Maybe in your world, but I have personally spoken to many gays & lesbians and they have all said the opposite. Gays have told me that they were sexually assaulted when they were young by a close family member and lesbians said that they had a strong sexual desire for girls.
I was also told by gay males that they seek young teenage boys because at that age they are confused about their own sexuality and they (gays) can bribed them (money, tennis shoes, jewelry, etc.) in performing sexual acts because a majority of them can not afford the material things that I mention.
More and more young girls are having sex with other girls just because thats the “in” thing to do, sexually!!!!
Prop 8 will not pass in Calif because the majority of African Americans along with the rest of the people that believes in the Bible will not go against their Bible principles.
Sounds to me that the Gays & Lesbians Communities want Bible Consicious Heterosexual to go against the Bible!!!!
In other words, Satan wanted Jesus to go against Jehovah, GOD!!!!
We are all living in the LAST DAYS!!!!

Richard:
“more tolerance and less judgment” you say? Shall we allow ‘consenting’ (as you say) adult mother and son marry? NO. Shall we allow brother to marry sister? No. SHall we allow mormons to have an infinite wives? No.
Because marriage was, by nature, between one man and one woman, and has been institutionalized this way because it is the natural way. To try to redefine nature is just wrong. We’ve outlawed rape and incest for this reason. “Do what they want” you say?
Are you suggesting we legalize incest because they are “consenting adults” and we shouldn’t “be judgmental” and “be more tolerant”?

as a matter of fact, Leviticus and deuteronomy are the products of Rabbincal teaching and human laws. GOD is not quoted. Someone professes to speak for Him.(as is frequently the case, “God told me…..”)
So those who wish to claim they follow the Bible literally, please provide your address as you have no reason to hide you faith and allow us to investigate YOUR behavior and determine whether YOU have followed all the Biblical laws you wish to enforce on others.
Did you ever actually read the Bible? Aside from all the ridiculous laws stated there that have been quoted here, there is also the matter of massive inferred incest. After the flood, with Noah, his wife, 3 sons and three daughter in laws, how was the earth repopulted? What we should not ask those questions?

Your vote does not count Californians.
Pretty sad that an imoral group can take those rights away from you.

@ fred: so do you suggest we take away children from single parents too? Wow, you do want communism don’t you…?

Ok, say homosexuality is good change, show me the “Good” that comes from it? How it benifits society and government. Rome, Egypt, Greece, Babylon all proven otherwise. When society turns to sexual perversions, it will fail!

Scott – Again, homosexuallity is not a race! Get with the program! I guess now since I absolutely love eating lasagna I’m going to start my own lasagna eating race. Wow your stupid!

nickskytonix – That you can, with a straight face, compare Democrats to “Hitler” when your Dimwitted Dubya has occupied the White House for the past 8 years, is laughable. Before you make any more hysterical historical references, you should pick up a history book and do some reading. I think you’ll be surprised at what you learn. Don’t worry – most books are available on tape and/or CD now, so you don’t need to be able to “read good” to learn.

HEY LETS GET BACK TO LASAGNA PEOPLE!!!

HAHAHA!!! Bush as Hitler? Where is the concentration camps MORONS? Where is the Gestapo? Where are the SS?

Where are the heated talks from the pulpit? The fists, the rage?

THE LASAGNA????

UH……….YOU CAN’T MARRY YOUR DOG MAN

Back on the bus are we, Twisty? LOL

IS THERE LASAGNA ON THE BUS???CUZ I’M HUNGRY.

UH…..YOU CAN’T MARRY YOUR DOG MAN

Scott – Since you are so wise, why don’t you explain to all of us how striking down the will of the people is not a fascist act. By the way, I aced all of my history classes even with liberal professors. Unfortunately for you when you’re right you’re right regardless of political party.

LOL Outa. Been fun!

My automotive “orientation” is Honda minivans. I actually prefer them to GM minivans. I think it’s time I demanded a job at General Motors based on that minority status and that GM create a special position for sensitivity to and hiring of people like me. Isn’t that what Rosa Parks did?

@mr. Reality
Do you know why the U.S. Of A exists?? Once upon a time there were these people called the puritans… Their opinions were different than those of the curch of england. So they stood up to the king. They voiced their opinions. And here we are with a black president!

I believe homosexuals want the right to marry because they believe it will “fix” what they feel is wrong in their lives. It will not. It is the homosexual lifestyle itself that causes these feeling. It is the homosexual lifestyle and the separation it brings from our inate human nature that causes these feeling.
Unfortunately, it is this feeling that is at the root of many of the consequences of the homosexual lifestyle. Dramatically higher rates of suicide than society at large, higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse, higher rates of domestic violence, and higher rates of self destructive behaviors. Not to mention the loss of bodily function associated with male homosexuality, which is a truly degrading, dehumanizing, and yes disgusting affliction. I have sympathy for the plight of homosexuals but making it easier for children to fall into this lifestyle by legitimizing it through marriage makes no sense what so ever.

NO YOU CAN’T MARRY LASAGNA MAN!!!!!

Gay & Lesbian Communities please do not equate your same-sex struggles to the Civil Rights struggles of African American people in this country.
The Calif. voters have spoken!!!!
You are going about this the WRONG WAY!!!

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY?
Exodus 22:19
19Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 18:22
22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 18:23
23Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
Leviticus 20:13
13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Leviticus 20:15
15And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
Leviticus 20:16
16And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

==The people spoke dummies…==
AHH HAHHH, but they don’t care about the People of the State of California speaking. They shop around for a Lib judge to speak, and they accept that.

The more Liberal among you are working to solve this dilemma without even realizing it.
Here’s how you are doing it.
1) You have managed to lie, cheat and steal your way into obtaining a President Elect who is in favor of “redistribution” of the Country’s wealth, ergo, a Socialist.
2) Socialistic Countries, sooner or later, tend to turn “Communist”.
3) Communistic Countries INVARIABLY turn into Totalitarian States.
4) Totalitarianistc States are, typically, bigotted and intolerant. They usually give homosexuals a difficult time, often by eliminating them.
5) After time, the “problem” has either been driven out of sight or eliminated.
Way to think things through, Libs!

==Religious fanatics continue to have too much influence on US Policy.==
What’s “too” much? Do Libs have “too much” influence on Lib judges to overturn the vote of the People?
Nobody is forcing policy makers to listen, and, yet, they do. Heh.

NO

Thank God I gained enough sense to get the hell out of southern California and go somewhere where they still honor God and country.
Posted by: J Kline
**************************
Hmmm, I though they closed down Jonestown..

Look everybody, while trying to make himself look like he has a spine, Scott threw in the towel. It was a clever way to do it though. Way to dodge the issue there. I still want you to explain to all of us how this “voiding” isn’t an action of fascism.

nickskytonix – Really… don’t flatter yourself. LOL

Posted by: Good Point James
Go back in your rectory and have
a party with your altar boys, hypocrite

ANYONE SEEN WEIRD OR GILLY?

SCOTT—–who in their right mind would marry a goat?

who cares what one’s religious beliefs are on this issue… if your religion is against gays, then dont be gay (LOL)… this is a civil rights issue, gays and straight both should have the right to marry whoever they choose, period!… this is great news!!

We’re waiting Scott………. Oh wait is that too many periods? How about that job I did on bringing we and are together. I gotta pat myself on the back for that one. But seriously Scott, we’re still waiting. Good luck.

Homophobic is a misnomer… Homonauseous is more accurate…

the majority should never have the right to vote on the rights of the minority — thomas jefferson; can you imagine if whites had a ‘vote’ on ending slavery?… it never would have happened!… bigotry is fine when it doesnt affect the rights of others, be a jerk or a bigot or prejudiced, but certainly you don’t get the right to ‘vote’ on others having the same rights as you… this is a constitutional issue, period!

==HOW DO YOU KNOW THE LASAGNA LOVES U BACK?==
Not for you to decide. He feels a love connection, and, if we are to believe those who claim to be homosexual, that’s all that’s important.

… and now lasagna is starting to make me nauseous… Thanks alot !!!
LOL

OK nickskytonix – Here we go. Apparently you can’t research and read this for yourself, so I’ll write it here, and hopefully your tutor can read it out loud for you, with hand puppets, if necessary. The time to propose a “No Gay Marriage” amendment to the California Constitution needed to happen BEFORE any gay marriages happened. California state law mandates that you can’t use a “popular vote” to create legislation which repeals civil rights which already exist. It has to go through the legislative branch, first. Now, because lots of gay folks got married between June and November, this “popular” vote was, in essence, not legal. In a nutshell, that’s the legal basis for the proposal to invalidate Prop 8. Questions? Don’t hurt yourself…

The goat would probably make a better spouse than some prissy phony-moralistic religious fanatic who feels that they have to meddle in everybody else’s life.

Mr. Incredible. That’s the problem isn’t it? The religious fanatics won’t accept scientific facts and think TV evangelists are honorable people. No wonder America has lost so much respect around the world.

nickskytonix – Actually, yes – that was too many periods. Keep at it though… 4th grade should be a breeze. LOL

MR INCREDIBLE?ARE YOU SOME KINDA LASAGNA HATER OR SOMETHING?CUZ THATS JUST WRONG MAN.WHAT DID LASAGNA EVER DO TO YOU?LASAGNA JUST WANTS TO BE LOVED.

Lasagna or goats, I just can’t make up my mind! Hey, again, who brought goats into this post? SCOTT, IT WAS YOU! You have something for GOATS?

==MR INCREDIBLE?ARE YOU SOME KINDA LASAGNA HATER OR SOMETHING?CUZ THATS JUST WRONG MAN.WHAT DID LASAGNA EVER DO TO YOU?LASAGNA JUST WANTS TO BE LOVED.==
I’ve been making the case that the person who said that he wants to marry his lasagna SHOULD be able to marry his lasagna, based on the standard set by those who claim to be homosexual — that is, that their relationship is THEY are business, and THEY get to decide the quality and quantity of love between them. The lasagna may be silent on the issue, but, as we all know, silence is acquiescence; it doesn’t object.

Scott – Prop 8 made it on the ballot in an effort for the citizens of the state to have an opportunity to either confirm or reject Californias high court’s decision on the matter of gay marriage. The measure was deemed legal prior to its placement on the ballot. Since the result was not what the gay community and its supporters wanted it then became a big deal. I tried not to hurt myself but I did get a slight foot cramp and I don’t know why. So be careful, I’d hate for you to get a foot cramp. You would probably just use it against me in the form of hate speech.

==THE POINT IS LASAGNA DOESNT HAVE FEELINGS ==
Irrelevant.
A prostitute, for instance, doesn’t have feelings, either. And, yet, she and the “John” get funky.
So, it has nothing to do with “feelings.”
It’s not up to you to decide whether, or not, feelings exist in somebody else, nor whether the quality of the feelings is good enough, nor whether they have feelings at all.
I’m just using the standard set by those who claim to be homosexual. What, that’s not good enough now?

Scott is teaching hate and intollerance to a child. Is anyone out there suprised? What a douche!

their relationship is THEY are business >>>> Their relationship is THEIR business

bye SCOTT, nice to have read your statements! I’m gone too, have to eat LASAGNA, yuk…!

When you repeat a lie, many times you believe it. Minority characteristics cannot be changed: color, race, origin, etc. Being Gay is a Life Style decided. There are thousands of ex-gay and ex-lesbian in many places. The practice of legalizing what you cannot work with like alcohol, drugs, gays, etc. must be stop. Look for the root cause – the lack of values, corrupted heart, etc. Their lack of self-control, tolerance and imposition of their life style based on the noise of a few with high economical status is not substitute of the democratic decision. They ask others to be tolerant but they have none.

==We cannot limit the rights of minorty by the majority beliefs.==
According to that standard, I move that we eliminate speed limits the cause, after all, that’s just the majority telling the minority what to do and what not to do.
== Our way of life in this country is to protect others beliefs.==
And we are trying to protect, and have protected, our beliefs against those who claim to be homosexual who are trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of us.
== We are people with many beliefs and manners that should be protected by all.==
A child molester believes something, too.

OK for all you who feel gay marriage is damaging to the concept of marriage, please! here and now, elucidate on the EXACT and specific damage (quanitifable and provable by scientific means)the quanity of hetero marriages dissolved by divorce, etc as a DIRECT result of gays getting married. Is the ratio one gay marriage to one straight divorce? 10 to 1?
As far as higbn suice rates, there are high rates for gays and TGs but the reason is they have been made to feel horrible about them selves as a result of the very bigotry expressed here so far on this forum.
You may be surprised how many gays, TGs and supportive straights you deal with every day.
You would also see the economy of California collapse quickly if we all stopped contributing to the society financially.
Now someone gets some cajones and tell us all the specific damage done by gay marriage. Please do not invoke religion as state policies and religion cannot co-mingle.

Why does anyone think we should try to be more like the Europeans? Where is the proof that they got it right. Last week there was a three day riot that began in Greece and flooded over to the other European youths who have no values. These are the places where anything goes according to behavior and yet the citizens feel the need to tear destroy the establishment even more. Leftists won’t stop until it is just short of anarchy. They will never let it get that far though because there is no money in it at that point.

==Homophobes have this irrational fear that, if 2 people who are in love and of the same sex are allowed to marry, that somehow this will destroy their hetero marriages or their hetero lifestyle.==
It has nothing to do with individual marriages being hurt. It has to do with the institution of marriage being hurt.
== Why is this? ==
Because, if it is allowed to happen, it will change the nature of marriage in this society, this culture, this country. That affects everybody.
==Why are homophobes so afraid of gay people?==
We’re not afraid of individuals who claim to be homosexual.
We’re afraid of what they are trying to do to this society, this culture, this country.
We’re afraid of what less than 2% of the population is trying to do to the more than 98%.
== Could it be that they are secretly gay and afraid someone will find out?==
Can’t you find something else to use from your Homosexual Internet Militia websites other than just another cliché?
== Don’t gay people deserve the same right…==
They already have the same Rights as we do.
A man who claims to be homosexual already may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual. There is no requirement that individuals be heterosexual.

Enough with the freaking bible verses already. That’s the point of all of this! Marriage is a RELIGIOUS concept, not a legal issue for the government. YOU don’t have the right to force someone else to live their life based on YOUR religious beliefs. Period. No one is forcing you to enter into a gay marriage, so what gives you the right take the option away from someone else?

“The US Constituion doesn’t say anything about marriage. That’s my point. It is not a right”. WRONG. ALL rights that are not mentioned in the Constitution are specifically reserved for the States, or to the People, respectively. “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed
to deny or disparage others retained by the people”, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

Just imagine how perfect liberal the typical, white gay californication Obama supporter felt as they did their voter registration drives in inner cities. How could they have imagined that the 77% of the black folks would for prop8. HAHAHAHA, I bet they never thought to ask a brutha what he thought of gays getting married.

Just imagine how perfectly liberal the typical, white, gay, californication Obama supporter felt as they did their voter registration drives in inner cities. How could they have imagined that 77% of the black folks would vote for prop8. HAHAHAHA, I bet they never thought to ask a brutha what he thought of gays getting married.

==Enough with the freaking bible verses already.==
What’s the matter, your eyes burning?
==Marriage is a RELIGIOUS concept, not a legal issue for the government.==
“Marriage” is an institution of God. The State is following the example set by God. Martha Stewart would say, “It’s a good thing.”
== YOU don’t have the right to force someone else to live their life based on YOUR religious beliefs.==
Then you should stop trying to do it.
==No one is forcing you to enter into a gay marriage…==
And no one is stopping those who claim to be homosexual from marrying. A man who claims to be homosexual already may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual.
==… so what gives you the right take the option away from someone else?==
Nobody is. Those who claim to be homosexual already have the option whether to marry. Individual heterosexuality is not a requirement.

Mr. Incredible – do you know how stupid your arguments sound?

let’s limit marriage to fertile couples who marry for the first and only time.
No divorce, no childless couples, no viagra, no … oops, suddenly obama supports gay marriage

==SearamblerOne,
So if one human is 40 and another human is 16, is that okay? Does the 16 year old human have an right to marry?
Why would it be wrong for one human to marry another human that is his or her mom, cousin, brother or dad? Why can those human to human marriages wrong?==
You have nailed the dilemma for those who claim to be homosexual who want to water down the terminology. If you water down the terms, the terms increasingly include elements unacceptable even to those who claim to be homosexual.

==Mr. Incredible – do you know how stupid your arguments sound?==
Translation: “I don’t agree with you, Mr. Incredible, so that means that your arguments are stupid.”

A beautiful night,
A poetic guitar,
A soft woman,
A little tequila,
much love

==Prop 8 is no different than the laws that were passed against interracial marriage. ==
Yes, it is.
The marriage of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, conforms to the standard established by God.
==Those were wrong then, and this is wrong now. ==
The laws against interracial marriage were wrong then. Proposition 8 is correct now.

“The State is following the example set by God.”
That’s the point. The State should not be involving God. Period.
YOUR definition of “marriage” is based on YOUR religion. And not everyone wants to participate in your religion.
FYI, I am straight, and a born and raised, baptized Christian from a Southern Baptist family. Most all of whom think the same way I do. That our definition of marriage, based on our God and our beliefs, should not be forced on other people who choose to follow a different path. Period.
Live and let live!

mr. incredible – no, i’m far from dimwitted, but you call me that because i disagree with your illogical arguments… but i’m sure there is no changing your opinion
you seem to think alot about gays, don’t you (typical homophobe!)

Maurice
“I am sick and tired of the homosexuals trying to force their deviate behavior on the the rest of society.”
———-
As long as no religion is forced to marry gays, you and others are not forced to do anything, but YOU and others are forcing gays to live within the bounds THAT idiots like you have set for everyone.
The bible says that a marriage is for life, yet we allow those who have been divorced to remarry. This is in direct conflict of the bible so why is this allowed and gays can’t marry. Adultery has its own commandment, greed is condemned in the bible many time more often then gay behavior yet none of them are prevented by society. Maybe if you sanctimonious Christians would worry about your own sins and stops trying to worry about others the world would be a better place. In addition, for the record I am a heterosexual male who has been married for 35 years to one wife.

It seems to be s “right” if a cul-de-sac, splinter group, micro society demands it, but a “misscarriage of justice” if they disagree with it, or, heaven forbid, it is the will of the majority. As I recall, N. Korea, Cuba, Libya, China and a few other places have minority rule also!

mr incredible – your beliefs are based on your religion… that’s fine, have your beliefs… but certainly you don’t think everyone should be forced to believe in your religion, hence, if your church doesn’t want to marry gay people, so be it… but as long as the government is in the business of granting marriage licenses, they should have no religious litmus test governing their issuance of legal documents… that’s one of many reasons why gay marriage is a concept who’s time is long overdue… but you just go ahead and fight till your last breath while the rest of the world changes it’s erroneous prejudices…

A community is a group of people. Are you so blind with hatred you cannot see that. I guess a church should not have any rights because it is simply a community. So is it time to take away all non profit status? I think so. People organize to promote the rights of the people in the community, because a group of people can better ensure the rights of the people than an individual can a lone. That is part of why we have states. Groups of people organize to better ensure their rights. Ever heard of states rights?

if I’m not mistaken, wasn’t the same arguement used against blacks and whites who married? That it was immoral and against the good of society? Two consenting adults entering into a relationship that does not harm anyone involved is not the same as a pedophile (and not a crime). Someone said here that Thomas Jefferson said that the rights of the minority should not be up to the majority to decide.

TJB
Jesus never talked about homosexuals. Other references in the bible are discussions amongst themselves and not with Christ. They are not reiterating what Christ said. Stop trying to interpret the bible to fit your beliefs.

==Actually Mr. Incredible if you want to be technical. In the Bible it says “what God puts asunder let no an bring together.==
Where?
== During the building of the Tower of Babel God put asunder people to different parts of the Earth.==
He separated the unrighteous, not the Righteous.
== You cannot use parts of the Bible to promote your hatred…==
We know that you don’t like Scripture upon Scripture interpretation of the Word of God, though it is the primary instrument of interpretation.
==I sure hope you don’t do any work on Saturday. Remember we cannot work on the Sabbath.==
If you’re a Jew, that’s true. I’m not a Jew.

==Jesus never talked about homosexuals.==
Jesus was God on Earth. Whatever God said, Jesus said.
== Other references in the bible are discussions amongst themselves and not with Christ.==
The Word of God is Christ. Jesus was a Christ in the flesh. God saves through the Christ.
==Stop trying to interpret the bible to fit your beliefs. ==
The Word of God is of no private interpretation. It is of Holy Spirit interpretation. Therefore, we are not interpreting the Word of God to fit our beliefs, rather we are fitting our beliefs to the Word of God.

==you said that anyone who doesn’t see it your way is dimwitted…==
No, I didn’t. I said, “To the dimwitted, yes.” If you feel that you are included, that’s not my fault.
== and of course, i don’t buy your illogical arguments, so of course you would include me as dimwitted…==
I’m not responsible for your conclusions.
== my goodness, you need a course on Logic 101 my friend==
The world is not my Shepherd. The LORD is my Shepherd.
==how much time do you spend thinking about homosexuality?==
It is an issue confronting this society, this culture, this country. I am a citizen in good standing. I think about this and other issues facing this society, this culture and this country. We happen to be talking about “homosexuality” right now. Therefore, posts here will focus on “homosexuality.” If you have a problem with that, maybe you need to go elsewhere.
== much more than the average straight person i can tell!==
So what? I’m involved in issues that face this society, this culture, this country. This issue happens to be a red meat issue, a vain-popper, cuz I love this country so much, and I see this country, this society, this culture threatened by less than 2% of the population.

I guess I forgot that I cannot have in intelligent conversation with someone who only uses religion to promote their beliefs. I would bet I know more o the Bible than most, as I grew up in private school, but I cannot use it for any and every argument. This conversation is going nowhere. What it boils down to is whether we all have the rights to marry, and the answer to that is we do. We have separation of church and state for a reason. So either stop all recognition of marriages by the government, period, or ensure that bigots cannot step on the rights of other Americans entitled to the same things as everyone else. It is a dangerous day to be a minority. I guess if we started hating Christians it would be okay if all of them were denied the right to practice their religion too right. think about it and hopefully a little common sense will come through.

Mr Incredible, your arguement is only valid if someone buys into the same fairy tales you do. Frankly nothing from the Xian bible holds much water if you don’t believe it anyways. But hey, if you really think your “god” or “allah” or flying spaghetti monster really cares that two men or women that love each other is an abomination compared to a volatile male/female combo then I’m glad i’m not an Xian or Islamic. Give me a good old love based polytheistic religion anyday.

whether a decision or a birth defect… homosexuality is not biologically logical

And Buddy I suppose you an back that up with science right? Because I can back up my side with it.

==I’m giving a lecture next week. It’s called “The Price of Ignorance”, and I’ve just decided to include many of this post’s comments from folks like “Mr. Incredible” and “nickskytonix”.==
Of course, you also take the chance that there will be many in your audience who see the logic of my posts. Thereby, sober thinking is spread.

It’d be nice if y’all would stop using that enormous pack of lies and fairytales (sprinkled with a few historic factoids to make it seem real) you call a “bible”, with your imaginary “god” and your made-up imaginary religious nonsense to justify trying to run other peoples’ lives. If you really believe this “god” exists, then he (she, it, whatever) made gays too. Live with that.

Mr. Incredible – Don’t count on it. I’m most willing to take that chance, because unlike you and lots of folks here, my students are both intelligent and enlightened.

The Bible is a collection of myths written by a group of men scattered over hundreds of years. It always reminds me of the description of an elephant given by a group of blind men. All wrong.

Religion is a “life style” that is “learned”.

everybody has the same rights here, marry the opposite sex!!the constitution may not define it but GOD does!!otherwise what would be the point of marriage anyway?!

==Religion is a “life style” that is “learned”.==
Since, for example, Islam is the “religion,” it is learned. That’s cuz it’s men made and performance-based. It is external. The change takes place outside, not inside.
Relationship with God, through Christ, is internal. The change takes place inside, not outside. It is a gift of God, not of men.

==Oh great, now Incredible is saying “the devil made me do it”.==
There you go misquoting and misrepresenting. So much for intelligence.
All I wrote is that the Devil said what you say.

Sorry Incredible, that last was too rambling to understand. Apparently you didn’t learn your religion well enough.

==i thought mr. incredible was making his argument based on logic, here he’s a religious freak… discussion over for me!==
Translation: “I thought Mr. Incredible is being logical, but I can’t get him to come over to the dark side. So, I’m out of talking points.”

Incredible you seem to be claiming to be a teacher, where, besides bible school on Sundays?

Oh well, Incredible must have hurt his hand “thumpin” his bible. Or were you thumpin something else, that’s going to make you go blind you know. Caio…

==Now Incredible is going on about Starwars and the Force.==
Jesus used parable for those whose minds could not make it from A to B. I also teach by example, even though the example may be a work of fiction. That’s because the fiction is well-known. The teaching gets through. It may not get through to you, but he gets through to somebody. That’s all that’s important.

“I thought Mr. Incredible is being logical, but I can’t get him to come over to the dark side. So, I’m out of talking points.”
you translate the bible just like you translate others words – illogically
<

The fundamental flaw in the AG’s argument claiming that voting on the rights of others is “wrong” is that voting is exactly how slavery was abolished in the 13th Amendment tot he US Constitution. The Senate passed it on April 8, 1864, by a vote of 38 to 6. The House of Representatives passed it on January 31, 1865, by a vote of 119 to 56. The amendment was adopted on December 6, 1865, when Georgia was the 27th State to ratified it. All 27 States that ratified it did so by legislators voting.

Okay Gismologist, let me see if I can articulate how I see gay marriage as damaging society.
I’m a straight woman with traditional values. I hope to marry a man with those same values one day and have children. When that happens, I want to be able to pass my values down to those children. One of the problems I see with the legalization of gay marriage is that when my kids go to school, they will learn that marriage includes homosexuality. I want to make the decision on my terms of when to explain homosexuality to my child.
That may sound bigotted and possibly not important that parents get to choose what and when their children learn about things that are outside what they believe is right. But to me, that’s the crux of the whole issue. I deserve to be able to teach my child right and wrong. Just like you do.
Now let me ask a question. My understanding was that the wording of the Civil Union law in California (sorry that I can’t find the exact number, I’m thinking of the one from 2005) says that people who enter into those unions enjoy all the same rights and responsibilities of marriage. If that’s true, what are we fighting about?

==Oh well, Incredible must have hurt his hand “thumpin” his bible. Or were you thumpin something else, that’s going to make you go blind you know. Caio…==
We’re so happy that you people aren’t addressing our arguments, but rather trying to distract from them so you can feel that you don’t have to address them. What this means is that what we write stands. Thanks for making it easy. Or, should I say, making it easier.

Wow, mr incredible, you can’t argue anything for yourself without refering to religion. Get it through your head. your arguement only holds water with xians. Your arguement that genetics have to have an external physical sign to be real is two faced. The tests done on straight males and females and their gay counterparts was done under MRI/Catscans. Shown the same images and their brain responses were measured. Can’t fake the blood flow to your brain oh holy one. Your arguement that your words spread wisdom is fallacy in the extreme. Your arguement is based nigh on exlusively on faith in YOUR RELIGION. Outside of that, you don’t have an arguement to bolster your claim. If you want I can point out and cite the studies to back my claim. What do you point to? A book that has been revised, reinterpreted, cut up, remixed, reglued, excluded of entire sections and distorted for every waste of humanity for their own good.

Posted by: Mr. Incredible
==Prop 8 is no different than the laws that were passed against interracial marriage. ==
Yes, it is.
The marriage of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, conforms to the standard established by God.
==Those were wrong then, and this is wrong now. ==
The laws against interracial marriage were wrong then. Proposition 8 is correct now.
……………………
Your “God” is a supernatural being, and it is not in charge of my country or its laws. This country has a history of legislating bigotry. This unjust law is no different. If you want to live in a theocracy, move to the middle east.

Marriage has ALWAYS been understood (IN ALL SOCIETIES throughout the long history of mankind) to be the solemnizing of male-female mating.
Senility is setting in. Brown has totally lost it! lol
It is a shame that such misguided individuals get elected as leaders in the society.
Good for the vast majority of citizens to recognize that there is something fundamentally and awfully wrong with homosexuality.
1 Homosexual TENDENCY can be shown scientifically to be a birth/behavioral DEFECT.
The unfortunate and gender/sexually confused individual is either born with with the biological defect, or the individual was sodomized and traumatized as a child, and then grow up with the delusion that homosexual TENDENCY is somehow OK. It is not!
2. Homosexual BEHAVIOR is abnormal, unnatural, deviant and perverted.
This deviance is not a representative behavior either for individuals or for societies throughout the long history of mankind.
3. While society cannot persecute/prosecute citizens for merely having mere TENDENCIES of whatever kind, all healthy societies do have a duty and obligation to regulate the BEHAVIOR of its members.
Those who don’t want their behaviors regulated in a society, will go live as hobos, outside of a society.
4. Homosexual BEHAVIOR is socially worthless, has no redeeming social value; and worse of all, homosexual BEHAVIOR poses additional dangers to the society’s children and to those weak of mind.
5. Had it not been for the anglican and catholic Christian Institutions of Child Sodomy, homosexuality would not be as prevalent and foolishly promoted in Western/christianity-dominated societies, when compared to other societies throughout the long history of mankind.

Mr. Incredible says Translation: “I thought Mr. Incredible is being logical, but I can’t get him to come over to the dark side. So, I’m out of talking points.”
Nobody’s run out of “talking points”. But when you show no willingness or ability to learn the truth, the point comes when it become fruitless to continue to the discussion with you. I love lively debate, with intelligent articulate people who have a valid point to make. But by about the third trip around the ridiculous merry-go-round of your discussions, any sensible person would say, “OK, lost cause. Next…” and just move on. LOL Talking with you is a little like trying to house-train a really stupid old dog… the point comes when you need to let them live outside, or clean up their crap indoors.

Patriot – where exactly is the ZIP code of the rock you just crawled out from under?

Even if homosexuality were an environmentally influenced condition (direct genetic linkage is simply absurd) possibly environmentally influenced genetic triggers but even so these would be the resultant effect of the fallen condition of this creation and not attributable to God any more than any other defect…

It’s really funny that these Christian Terrorists keep using the bible – the same book that promotes slavery, animal sacrifice and the sale of children – as their reference guide in this discussion. It’s such a convenient “rule book” when you can take passages out of context and choose to ignore the rest, isn’t it? LOL So silly!

When did “marriage” become a “religious” right? There have been forms of marriage for thousands of years, long before modern religion raised it’s ugly head. Marriage is about legal status, legal decision making and responsibility before the law, not religious ceremony. My wife and I have been married for 39 years, since we stood before a “judge” that married us. There was no religion involved, does that make us any less married, I don’t think so and neither does the law.

==We addressed the arguments a long time ago Incredible…==
Well, you responded to those arguments a long time ago, but you didn’t address them, just as you aren’t addressing them now.
==You say, “I want the Word of God to mean what I say it means and in line with my agenda, rather than what God means.”
Blah, blah, blah, blah praise God, blah, blah, blah my belief is greater than yours, blah blah blah. ==
That’s just another Lib debate tip, folks.
==You offer nothing new, just more religious drivel proclaiming yourself as the chosen messenger with the truth. Well you aren’t.
==
They said that about Jesus, too.

I see a lot of Biblical citations – I assume the point of that is that Christian gays (or Jewish, some old Testament, too) should not be allowed to marry…? Wiccan or Atheist gays, tho – they’re cool, right?

==There have been forms of marriage for thousands of years, long before modern religion raised it’s ugly head.==
Yes, the first marriage was the one performed by God for Adam and Eve.
== Marriage is about legal status, legal decision making and responsibility before the law, not religious ceremony.==
We all know that you disagree with God.
== My wife and I have been married for 39 years, since we stood before a “judge” that married us.==
And, yet, you conformed to the Creator’s idea of “marriage.”
== There was no religion involved…==
Except that you are a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife. That’s how God defines “marriage,” too.

Here is an oddity… a conceptual oxy-moron….>>>> Gay Pride… LOL ….
Proud of what…??? The inability to procreate?…

mr incredible – i know you have a direct line to jesus or god that the rest of us are ignorant of, but i didnt know you have a book or direct line with the words of the devil
did you vote for sarah palin? why?

===homosexuality is biology.==
Show us the biology.
==Personally I find evangelicals like “Incredible” to be perverse..==
The Devil does, too.
==…they “choose” to live the way they do…==
God gave all of us the dignity to choose. I chose to follow Him.
==… and should be banned from our society.==
The Muslims say the same thing.
But how do you suppose YOU’RE going to ban us from society?

Oh yeah… I forgot we’re in America where the main reason for reproductive organs is indulgence… just like everything else… freakin’ hedonistic gluttons…

You know who else shouldn’t be able to marry? Fat people, old people, ugly people or any other that some people are grossed out by. I mean, that is what all this is really about. People always need a target in America. Someone different to pick on. If you don’t want to marry a gay person then don’t. People need to mind their biz & fix problem that actually exist with marriage such as adultery.
The people who do the targeting usually do it behind the veil of protecting moral values such as the church people.
Fear based bigotry is not a right.
Gay people will win this in the end and all the bigots will pretend that they were on the right side of the issue from the beginning just like they did with interracial marriage. Heck, it’s probably most of the same people:)

Well first, I don’t pay attention to your rambling Jesus, oh there I go again, “incredible”, and I campaign to keep you zealots from control.

==Have you ever heard of genetics?==
Yes, and all I am asking is
If homosexuality is genetic, where is the physical manifestation of this genetics?
== How about a list of the clear, physical attributes that distinguish “black” people from “white” people.==
It’s in the genes. We can actually see the manifestation of the genetic makeup.
For what do we look in order to see the physical manifestation of the genetic makeup of those who claim to be homosexual?

theregoesthecountry
Yes, people doing things they enjoy is SO awful, you’d better get out there and fight to prevent it! After all, we can’t be having any free choice in this country, can we? This is America!!

those of you who are against gay marriage because you want to be the ones to talk to your children about homosexuality have a losing argument… whether gays get married or not, there are going to be gay parents at your kids school, at soccer, and in every facet of society… the problem you face is huge in that the more gays ‘come out’ the more you will have to talk to your kids about gays whether you like it or not… allowing gays to marry will not protect you one bit… the only thing that will ‘protect you’ is keeping gays in the closet, which is precisely why you are against gay marriage… you want to keep gays hidden… sorry, that war you lost and will continue to lose forever… the tipping point has been reached… so please, stop trying to stop other american citizens from having the same rights you have, it’s wrong and god is NOT pleased (trust me)

Many mental illnesses are genetic in origin (Epilepsy for instance is influenced heavily). Where’s the physical manifestation? Oh wait, there is none until an attack occurs. Freedom of religion also means Freedom FROM religion.

JR: You are correct religion IS a lifestyle. The value of which is, admittedly, debateable. You are also correct about homosexuality being biology. However, it IS a biological mistake, the value of which is, inarguably, non-existant.

==those of you who are against gay marriage==
We’re not against what you call “gay marriage.” Those you call “gay” may already get married:
Men who claim to be homosexual may marry women who claim to be homosexual. That has always been the case. Individual heterosexuality is not a requirement for marriage.

==Why does something have to be visible on the outside to be genetic?==
Because all manifestations of the genes ultimately are physical.
== Is skin color the ONLY thing that can be genetic, just because it helps us put people into categories by pointing to them?==
YOU people are the ones bringing interracial marriage into this.

God decreed that man would only marry a women, I Jesus, proclaim that homosexual activity is a sin, as is any relation of man with other than a woman or fourteen, unless a donkey presents himself or a sheep during a long winter night. There’s nothing wrong with loving one’s asss, except that you have to quit and walk around front to kiss them, but I, Mr. Incredible, errr, ahhh, Jesus say, what a man does in the privacy of his own tent is his business.

have i been missing out on something? when did god start talking to some of you and not me?… or are you refering to the bible, written by MEN?… is there some other document or recording or transference of gods word beside the man-written bible that i have been left out on? sheesh, no fair!… no wonder the born agains are always right, they have the ‘in’ and are ‘god’s’ chosen so ‘He’ doesnt share this other direct link with those of us ‘lost’ people and faiths…

“However, it IS a biological mistake, the value of which is, inarguably, non-existant.” The value of homosexuality in a sexual species that is overpopulating has obvious value. Jeez, look past the next 2 minutes. Bonobos demonstrate ‘gay’ socialization and yet manage to continue their species. Population studies with rats show increased homosexual events under high-stress crowded conditions with limited resources – y’all, it has its NATURAL place….

“Many mental illnesses are genetic in origin” —– this is simply not true… triggerable genetic predispositions… maybe…

==have i been missing out on something?==
Apparently.
== when did god start talking to some of you and not me?==
When we became born again and you did not.
God says He will not treat the disobedient the way he treats the obedient. You get to choose whether to be disobedient, or obedient.
==… or are you refering to the bible, written by MEN?==
But not devised by men. The Word of God was spoken by God to men who, then, took His Dictation.
==… is there some other document or recording or transference of gods word beside the man-written bible that i have been left out on?==
No, there is ONLY One.
== sheesh, no fair!==
Tuff.
==… no wonder the born agains are always right, they have the ‘in’ and are ‘god’s’ chosen so ‘He’ doesnt share this other direct link with those of us ‘lost’ people and faiths…==
Now you got it.

Presidential elections are also accomplished through the Constitution — The People spoke on the issue and elected Barrack Obama — in the SAME percentage as Californians voted FOR Prop 8. Maybe we should decide that wasn’t enough and OVERTURN Obamas election. Absurd? Of course it is, and so is overturning the voice of California Voters.

Mr. Incredible,
No one can argue intelligently against something you believe because no matter what facts are presented to show that your beliefs are flawed or incorrect you still will choose to believe in them. I am pretty sure you have never encountered or heard of a woman who can conceive a child and then give birth to one without sexual interaction with a man, yet this is the basic concept for those Christians who believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. The quotes from the bible in which you use to support your BELIEFS against gay marriage means nothing to one who does not identify themselves as Christian. In fact a lot of what Christians believe can be found in religions, particularly in Ancient Eyptian text, that predated the Torah by thousands of years; therefore, what makes Christianity the authority on anything i.e. marriage. Now don’t get me wrong, believe what you will I could care less in that regard; however, when your beliefs infringe on my rights or another’s as a free person than I have a problem with that. You stated that allowing gay marriage would destroy the institution of marriage, but if you look at statistical data on marriage in the country, heterosexual couples are doing a great job of that on their own. In acts of displaying love, if two consenting adults want to marry it should be, by all standards of the law, recognized by the government. Forcing a religious entity to recognize or “bless” the marriage is one thing, but the government should not discriminate on the basis that they are same-sex or not.
I would also add that those who compare gay marriage to murderers and pedophiles and wish to use that as argument come off as very foolish. Two “CONSENTING” adults marrying each other to show a public display of love hurts no one other than those lacking the maturity level to get over their personal issue with homosexuality. In the latter cases, the receipients of such behavior are adversely affected so such comparisons are just silly and ignorant.

Mr. Incredible
I don’t really want to know what “God” says to you, and I certainly don’t want it to lead to taking away my rights. Can’t you and “God” keep it to yourselves?

rt… ignore the fact that the scholarship behind Leviticus remains inconclusive. translations accept that the lie with a man bit could have referred to temple prostitutes (male, of course). um – let me know if you can read the Aramaic and break it down for the rest of us…

==The value of homosexuality in a sexual species that is overpopulating has obvious value.==
That’s a joke, isn’t it?
==Bonobos demonstrate ‘gay’ socialization and yet manage to continue their species.==
There is no homosexuality in the animal kingdom.
What YOU think is homosexuality in the animal kingdom is really a struggle for dominance.
== Population studies with rats show increased homosexual events under high-stress crowded conditions with limited resources…==
That’s not the unbiased, uncorrupted, scientific consensus. There is no homosexuality in the animal kingdom. What you think you see as homosexuality in the animal kingdom is actually a struggle for dominance.
== – y’all, it has its NATURAL place.==
Yeah, in the closet.

midasallen
The difference is whether or not the vote in question takes away someone’s Constitutional rights. Electing on eperson over another in a free and fair election cannot be said to take away Constitutional rights.
On the other hand, telling one group of people that they cannot have the same legal benefits of another group is more problematic. And if it is not consititutional, it doesn’t matter how many people voted for it.

Mr. Incredible says “The Devil comes to kill, destroy and steal. The Word of God comes to give life.”
Yeah. That’s what Radical Muslims say about their God, too. Yet history is filled the millions of corpses of those killed “in God’s name.”
Shame on you for pretending that crime and murder don’t happen in “God’s name”. It happens every day. Wake up.

“There is no homosexuality in the animal kingdom.”
Are you really that ignorant? Of course there is.

Mr. Incredible,
No one can argue intelligently against something you believe because no matter what facts are presented to show that your beliefs are flawed or incorrect you still will choose to believe in them. I am pretty sure you have never encountered or heard of a woman who can conceive a child and then give birth to one without sexual interaction with a man, yet this is the basic concept for those Christians who believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. The quotes from the bible in which you use to support your BELIEFS against gay marriage means nothing to one who does not identify themselves as Christian. In fact a lot of what Christians believe can be found in religions, particularly in Ancient Eyptian text, that predated the Torah by thousands of years; therefore, what makes Christianity the authority on anything i.e. marriage. Now don’t get me wrong, believe what you will I could care less in that regard; however, when your beliefs infringe on my rights or another’s as a free person than I have a problem with that. You stated that allowing gay marriage would destroy the institution of marriage, but if you look at statistical data on marriage in the country, heterosexual couples are doing a great job of that on their own. In acts of displaying love, if two consenting adults want to marry it should be, by all standards of the law, recognized by the government. Forcing a religious entity to recognize or “bless” the marriage is one thing, but the government should not discriminate on the basis that they are same-sex or not.
I would also add that those who compare gay marriage to murderers and pedophiles and wish to use that as argument come off as very foolish. Two “CONSENTING” adults marrying each other to show a public display of love hurts no one other than those lacking the maturity level to get over their personal issue with homosexuality. In the latter cases, the receipients of such behavior are adversely affected so such comparisons are just silly and ignorant.

JHW – “Why it is not enough for them and are still trying to take away the right of the other 90% of heterosexual people’s traditional view on ‘Marriage’?”
They’d still be allowed to hold their VIEW. That’s basically freedom of thought. Despite all kinds of laws for equality on the books – well, face it folks, we are STILL plagued by racism and misogyny. The laws are there and freedom of thought is there as well.
What the laws DO, tho’, is to authorize right and entitlement.
Gay couples are not asking you to dance at their weddings! But I guess you’ve never been aware that some folks disapprove of some STRAIGHT marriages… but wait. Those are legal. Um – so mentally that can’t really happen…?
wow – what a wonderful has been constructed there!

‘Yeah. That’s what Radical Muslims say about their God, too. Yet history is filled the millions of corpses of those killed “in God’s name.”‘
Wanna bring up the Inquisition, the Crusades or the Salem Witch trials, to balance the picture out just a little? or were those staged by the [pick your own hated group here] just to make Christians look bad….?
yeah that must be it…

==I am pretty sure you have never encountered or heard of a woman who can conceive a child and then give birth to one without sexual interaction with a man, yet this is the basic concept for those Christians who believe in the virgin birth of Jesus.==
You are doubt is the result of human reasoning. Human reasoning is imperfect. Human reasoning is flawed.
== The quotes from the bible in which you use to support your BELIEFS against gay marriage means nothing to one who does not identify themselves as Christian. ==
We already know that. But so what? Are their eyes burning?
== In fact a lot of what Christians believe can be found in religions, particularly in Ancient Eyptian text, that predated the Torah by thousands of years; therefore, what makes Christianity the authority on anything i.e. marriage.==
Christianity didn’t start until Jesus died and was resurrected. Therefore, given that Jesus talked about God’s joining a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, came after that joining. That joining came in the beginning.
==… believe what you will…==
Gee, thanks.
==… I could care less in that regard… Q1
You mean, “I couldn’t care less.”
== however, when your beliefs infringe on my rights or another’s as a free person than I have a problem with that.==
So, you have a problem with people merely posting on this board.
== You stated that allowing gay marriage would destroy the institution of marriage…==
I didn’t say that. However, that won’t stop you from misrepresenting what I write.
==… but if you look at statistical data on marriage in the country, heterosexual couples are doing a great job of that on their own.==
Irrelevant. That doesn’t show that so-called “same-sex ‘marriage’” is acceptable alternative that will “teach those heterosexuals a lesson.”
== In acts of displaying love, if two consenting adults want to marry it should be, by all standards of the law, recognized by the government.==
Everybody of age is allowed to do that. All men who claim to be homosexual may marry women who claim to be homosexual. Since Humanity is either male, or female, where’s the discrimination in the law that defines “marriage” as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman as his wife?
== Forcing a religious entity to recognize or “bless” the marriage is one thing, but the government should not discriminate on the basis that they are same-sex or not.==
That’s a value judgment. Your value judgments should not be imposed on the rest of us.
==I would also add that those who compare gay marriage to murderers and pedophiles and wish to use that as argument come off as very foolish. ==
Especially to those who claim to be homosexual who are trying to get the rest of us to accept their agenda.
== Two “CONSENTING” adults marrying each other to show a public display of love hurts no one other than those lacking the maturity level to get over their personal issue with homosexuality.==
Well, if I agree with you, I don’t agree with God. If I don’t agree with God, I am separated from God. If I am separated from God, I am in sin. If I am in sin, I won’t be saved. That would be bad.

anyone who believes the earth is 10,000 years old, and that gays should stay in the closet, should NOT be in charge of deciding civil rights for other americans… this is the majority voting on whether to establish equal rights for the minority is wrong

==you’ve heard the word, but you have no understanding of it.==
Romans 8:1 [KJV]

bubby – before anyone bothers discussing rationally with you, you might want to come up with a better analogy for being gay than murderers or blind drivers… can you think of something a little better than that to start your platform?…

==Wanna bring up the Inquisition, the Crusades or the Salem Witch trials, to balance the picture out just a little?==
Did those things happened just recently?
Let’s think about more recent events like beheadings and killings in the name of Islam.

==anyone who believes the earth is 10,000 years old, and that gays should stay in the closet, should NOT be in charge of deciding civil rights for other americans.==
Especially when those who claim to be homosexual, their activists and supporters have an agenda to perpetuate. They want nobody in the way.

not imposing on you, allowing marriage between same sex adults does not impose you to make the decision to marry another of your gender…
and your continuous posting of homosexuals having the right to marry the opposite gender is dry… noone is arguing with you about that because gays don’t care to marry the other gender… of course you know that already

mr incredible – the only agenda gays have with regards to marriage is to be able to have the right to marry the gender they are attracted to… just like you have the right to marry the gender you are attracted to
and thanks for not denying you think the earth is 10,000 years old… you probably think sara palin was the best candidate because she is saved… more proof why born agains need to be watched carefully, lest irrational policy be implemented (oops, too late, the last 8 years with born-again-bush has proved my point here)

The dog: “They are only partners and no other rights are afforded.
They should accept this and be quiet…”
I’m sure they said the same thing to mixed-race couples 50 years ago — “Yes, we are taking away your rights, but you should accept it and be thankful we don’t enslave you as well..”

jock59801
I can understand the argument you put forward. BUT, at the same time, if the VOICE OF THE PEOPLE cannot determine such a law, WHY, WHY, WHY was the issue ever put on the ballot?
When it WAS put on the ballot, where was the AG? Shouldn’t he have told everyone, including ballot printers, poll workers and even the fund raisers of BOTH sides that this was a waste of time & money?
Betcha if the vote had gone the other way, he’d be upholding the Voice of the People.

Mr. Incredible
And why would I want to marry a woman? Just because YOU approve? Should everyone run their choice of spouse by you, to assure that we do not offend your delicate sensibilities by OUR choice of life partner?

There is an old but very true saying.
It is that people condemn only that which they secretly desire.
Ted Haggart anyone? And that’s to name but one.

gay people want to marry for the same reason everyone else does.
these God based debates are stupid because in the end God has the Golden Rule that ahem, “christians” seem to ignore.
I would argue that people that are so upset about same sex marriage & have spent all day commenting on this have some issues that they need to address that go waaayyy beyond gay marriage issues. Sen. Craig? Is that you? LOL

==Mr. Incredible
And why would I want to marry a woman? ==
You don’t have to. You may choose not to marry.
However, if you choose to marry, just like every other man, it must be to a woman.
You may want to marry a woman for convenience reasons. It may be for other reasons. That’s not my problem.
==Just because YOU approve?==
Not at all.
If you choose to marry a woman, that’s fine.
If you choose not to marry a woman, that’s fine.
You don’t need my approval to marry a woman.
== Should everyone run their choice of spouse by you, to assure that we do not offend your delicate sensibilities by OUR choice of life partner?==
The only qualification for all men and all women is that the men marry women and the women marry men. That does not exclude those who claim to be homosexual since even those who claim to be homosexual are either men, or women.

==It was put on the ballot, and campaigned for, mostly by money and action from the Mormom Church…==
So what? You complaint is that the Mormons have more money than you people??? Gee, that’s too bad, but it’s not illegal.
==… who wished to impose their Biblical interpretation on others. ==
No more than you wish to impose your beliefs on us.

Bubby
The question is not so much that “marriage” itself is a right (although can still be argued), but that the financial and legal benefits associated with marriage are denied to some people and not others.
As soon as the State attached financial and legal benefits to the institution of marriage, it became a Constitutional matter. Equal protection under the law should still mean something in America.

Mr. Incredible: “God decreed that man would only marry a women..”
YOUR religion, not mine.

==Sexual orientation is comparable to skin color and gender.==
Then, tell us what gene causes it. Where is it?
== It is something for which we can do nothing.==
It is something for which those who claim to be homosexual want to do nothing, and choose to do nothing.
== Refusing the right for the homosexual population to marry same-sex partners is discriminating a group of people for something that they can do nothing about.==
The Bakke decision in California says the groups have no rights. Only individuals do.
The law that defines “marriage” as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, does not discriminate against individuals.
== It is much the same as earlier last century when blacks could not marry whites. ==
Being Black is an immutable, genetic characteristic. It is also a physical manifestation. We can see that a person is Black.
Those who claim to be homosexual are in no way likewise endowed.
==Neither homosexuality nor heterosexuality is a choice, you are what you are.==
God made everybody heterosexual.
Some made themselves homosexual through their own choice.

OH, You can’t HELP if your gay???? We’ll what about that poor convicted petophile who was told yesterday that he CANNOT be a Secret Santa. RIGHTS DENIED!!!! Maybe he can’t help it either!!!
After were done with this, we should extend rights to child rapists! Yeah!
Others will argue – “Hey, what he does in the privacy of his home isn’t my business — He isn’t raping MY kid, after all……”

==YOUR religion, not mine. ==
I don’t have “religion.”
Muslims have religion. Lists have religion. Atheists have religion.
Christians have relationship with God as a gift from God through Jesus Christ.

==Then how do I get all of the financial and legal benefits that the State awards to married couples.==
You can go to a lawyer and draft a document that assigns these things.
Or…
If you are a dude, you can marry a woman for convenience.
If you are a chick, you can marry a man for convenience.
If you choose to do nothing, and stay single, that’s YOUR choice. It’s not a matter for law.
== By marrying someone on YOUR approved list, whether I love them or not?==
If you are a dude, you don’t have to run a woman past me for approval.
If you are a chick, you don’t have to run a man past me for approval.
Individual heterosexuality is not a requirement for marriage.

==…whether I love them or not?==
Since when, these days, is love a requirement for marriage?

==The next time you equate my love to such an abomination, you and I are going to have WORDS. ==
Big talk.
Just as heterosexuality doesn’t automatically connect with love, homosexuality doesn’t automatically connect with love.

I am a Christian. Yet I think that many Christians do not realistically read the Bible. There are many horrendous things that are writting in the name of God in there–genocide and slavery for example. Likewise there are other arbitrary things that even the most conservative Christians do not adhere to, such as not wearing two different types of cloth (which is supposedly an abomination). The Bible has also been used in the past to support slavery.

Mister lacks credibility – You don’t have religion – you have superstition. How unfortunate that the majority didn’t vote to prevent your parents from reproducing.

It is sad statement about the GBLT that they have to declare anything that is not in their favor as biased and unfair.

Mr. Incredible – I honestly do not understand what you mean by “stopped your mouth.” Do you see my mouth stopping?
The last time I checked, we do not allow anyone to “stop someone’s mouth” in America. I know the Constitution has taken a beating from Bush/Cheney, but I think we still have the First Amendment.

I wish you conservatives would go a chat site called http://dockwave.com and set them liberals right in the politics and religion room. They are crazy in the head.

Let them win that “Marriage” is a religious term. Make all civil ceromonies classified and “Domestic Partnerships” with all rights and responsibilities of “marriage”. Let churches handle “marriages” just as churches do baptisms. Churches if they see fit can bless a gay domestic partnership.
I voted against Prop 8 only because I thought it would be used to keep committed couples from being protected legally.
I am not gay and have some trouble with aspects of homosexual relations but it seems to me that there are same sex couples who really care for each other and act more “normal” when partnered. I don’t want a “gay lifestyle in my face” or necessarily taught to my young kids. I am also pro free speech but don’t want vulgar rappers being promoted to my kids either. However, I believe viable partnerships take away reason to dress up wacky and act freaky.

==Mr. Incredible – I honestly do not understand what you mean by “stopped your mouth.” Do you see my mouth stopping?==
Either it was you, or somebody else, who said that he would not discuss with me anymore. I welcomed that.
However, “stop your mouth” also refers to somebody who offers no substance.
==The last time I checked, we do not allow anyone to “stop someone’s mouth” in America.==
You don’t get it, do you? I thought you people said you are intelligent.
== I know the Constitution has taken a beating from Bush/Cheney, but I think we still have the First Amendment.==
Since you are craving for instruction and correction, I’ll tell you that, “stopping your mouth,” refers to your inability to express anything of substance.

I’m sorry, I miss read.. you were quoting others and them were not your ideas. sorry..

==it’s been fun talking to a brick wall==
See? You ran out of substance, as though you had any in the first place. The Word of God stopped your mouth.

==I have plans to perform an abomination before God.==
As long as you’re big enough to accept the consequences on Judgment Day without whining like a little girl.

Ben Ben Ben

“As long as you’re big enough to accept the consequences on Judgment Day.”
I will defend my love in front of any God you choose. And I certainly would not worship one who has a list of who I can love and who I cannot.

==I will defend my love in front of any God you choose.==
I would buy a ticket to see that on Judgment Day.
== And I certainly would not worship one who has a list of who I can love and who I cannot. ==
God does not have a list of whom one can love.
What he has done, in this case, is to condemn what we now call “homosexuality” as an “abomination.” I love my father, but it is not a homosexual relationship.

Mr. “Incredible,” your god and your holy book have no place in my laws.

Mr. Incredible,
You stated:
****You are doubt is the result of human reasoning. Human reasoning is imperfect. Human reasoning is flawed.****
You meant, “Your doubt is the result of human reasoning.” If you wish to resort to the spell check function in an attempt to be sarcastic or maybe just helpful, then I can play along as well ;). But seriously, I never said I doubted anything, that is something you concluded on your on. What I did say was that you have never encountered a woman who has conceived without assistance from a man and you failed to prove me wrong in your response. You saying humans are imperfect goes without saying, hence the bible is imperfect since it was written by man. The bible should not be used as a tool to support one’s agenda outside of a christian church in regards of stripping away the rights of any American.
****We already know that. But so what? Are their eyes burning?***
Of course their eyes aren’t buring from reading quotes you use from the bible, but you using such quotes to support your beliefs is what I was suggesting is unnecessary in regards to people who do not believe the way in which you believe. My point, one’s beliefs should not manifest into laws that could infringe on another’s right if they are not endangering anyone. You have yet to explain to me how homosexual marriages are harmful outside of quoting bible scripture that support your beliefs.
****Christianity didn’t start until Jesus died and was resurrected. Therefore, given that Jesus talked about God’s joining a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, came after that joining. That joining came in the beginning.****
Again you have yet to refute what I have stated. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough, but what makes CHRISTIANITY the authority on what MARRIAGE is and should be in America when 1.) we live in a non-theocratic nation that upholds a separation of church and state, and 2.)considering there were religions that predated Christianity by thousands of years that have differing views on marriage? For example, it was common to see brothers and sisters marry each other in Ancient Egypt. A lot of principles written in the bible can be found in the Ma’at(Ancient eyptian code of conduct)that were written thousands of years before.
****Gee, thanks.****
No prob ;).
****You mean, “I couldn’t care less.”****
Again thanks for the spell check.
****So, you have a problem with people merely posting on this board.****
No I never said that, but I do have issue with peoples’ beliefs, especially when their beliefs come from a religious slaint, infringing on mine or my loved ones rights as free persons living in this world.
****I didn’t say that. However, that won’t stop you from misrepresenting what I write.****
If you didn’t not say that then I stand corrected.
****Irrelevant. That doesn’t show that so-called “same-sex ‘marriage’” is acceptable alternative that will “teach those heterosexuals a lesson.”****
It is relavant to look at the rate at which heterosexuals divorce in this country especially when they argue that gay marriage is wrong on the basis that it will “destroy” the institution of marriage. Also no one is trying to find an alternative to heterosexual marriage. Homosexuals just want the right to express their love in the same manner as heterosexuals do.
****All men who claim to be homosexual may marry women who claim to be homosexual. Since Humanity is either male, or female, where’s the discrimination in the law that defines “marriage” as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman as his wife?****
Stop being facetious. Why would a homosexual male want to marry a homosexual woman? That is a ridiculous argument and for you to continue to use it as if you are offering some type of relevation is just plan silly and foolish. I am sure you are intelligent enough to see the absurdity in such a statement.
****That’s a value judgment. Your value judgments should not be imposed on the rest of us.****
No it isn’t, you can go to the constitution and read Amendment #14 if you still disagree.
****Especially to those who claim to be homosexual who are trying to get the rest of us to accept their agenda.****
I don’t think, but I could be wrong, when I say that homosexuals care if you accept there agenda or not. You can tolerate something and not necessarily agree with it. They are simply asking to have the same rights granted to heterosexual people that is all. Whether you accept it as an individual or people collectively who think like you accept it is not a concern.
****Well, if I agree with you, I don’t agree with God. If I don’t agree with God, I am separated from God. If I am separated from God, I am in sin. If I am in sin, I won’t be saved. That would be bad.****
This sounds a bit like Pascal’s Wager, which to me is a terrible reason to believe in God, but I digress. I am not asking you to agree with me Mr. Incredible. Like I said, I could care less. But I have asked you to explain to me how same-sex marriage is bad or some how harmful and would destroy the constructs on which this country was built. Me personally I think all of this is a distraction to more important issues like the genocide in Darfur, or sex trafficking of young children and women. These are the things I would think as a believer you would want to speak out against and stop, and not on how two adults choose to display their love for one another.

Well said out4mimi

What do you expect from a S.F. liberal who went into the Priesthood, and came out taggging on the heels of his father who was Governor of California?
I remember Jerry Brown becoming Governor and his very liberal policies; one being to hire Rose Bird as Justice of the Supreme Court of California who initiated to overturn the Death Penalty for those like Charlie Manson who was on Death Row for the brutal murders of actress Sharon Tate and her friends visting her that night in 1969, and Mr. & Mrs. La Bianca savagely butchered in their own homes.
Jerry Brown flip-flops on every issue,
and is a softie who doesn’t respect the votes of the people!

I commend you on your efforts Mr. Incredible. Its amazing to see the ignorance to the truth of all things that these Liberals have! I find it easy to get these people to PROVE their position when when they really have NO true evidence to back them up. They will fall every time! Even the theory of Evolution and 4000 years of written history is against them.

Thanks Ben!!! :D

nanameow…so you are saying that a single father cannot raise a daughter…or a single mother cannot raise a son…how idiotic…and there is where the biggest issue lies…too many of you straight “sanctity of marriage” crazies and all of these single parent homes…that is what should outlawed…not two people who love each other and want to maintain a two person family…and yes with kids…

Posted by: Mr. Twister :
I commend you on your efforts Mr. Incredible. Its amazing to see the ignorance to the truth of all things that these Liberals have! I find it easy to get these people to PROVE their position when when they really have true evidence to back them up. They will fall every time! Even the theory of Evolution and 4000 years of written history is against them.
……………………
wrong.

Jock, I really don’t know how you can deal with this bs. These people make me ashamed to be a heterosexual.

Mr. Incredible,
You stated:
****You are doubt is the result of human reasoning. Human reasoning is imperfect. Human reasoning is flawed.****
You meant, “Your doubt is the result of human reasoning.” If you wish to resort to the spell check function in an attempt to be sarcastic or maybe just helpful, then I can play along as well ;). But seriously, I never said I doubted anything, that is something you concluded on your on. What I did say was that you have never encountered a woman who has conceived without assistance from a man and you failed to prove me wrong in your response. You saying humans are imperfect goes without saying, hence the bible is imperfect since it was written by man. The bible should not be used as a tool to support one’s agenda outside of a christian church in regards of stripping away the rights of any American.
****We already know that. But so what? Are their eyes burning?***
Of course their eyes aren’t buring from reading quotes you use from the bible, but you using such quotes to support your beliefs is what I was suggesting is unnecessary in regards to people who do not believe the way in which you believe. My point, one’s beliefs should not manifest into laws that could infringe on another’s right if they are not endangering anyone. You have yet to explain to me how homosexual marriages are harmful outside of quoting bible scripture that support your beliefs.
****Christianity didn’t start until Jesus died and was resurrected. Therefore, given that Jesus talked about God’s joining a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, came after that joining. That joining came in the beginning.****
Again you have yet to refute what I have stated. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough, but what makes CHRISTIANITY the authority on what MARRIAGE is and should be in America when 1.) we live in a non-theocratic nation that upholds a separation of church and state, and 2.)considering there were religions that predated Christianity by thousands of years that have differing views on marriage? For example, it was common to see brothers and sisters marry each other in Ancient Egypt. A lot of principles written in the bible can be found in the Ma’at(Ancient eyptian code of conduct)that were written thousands of years before.
****Gee, thanks.****
No prob ;).
****You mean, “I couldn’t care less.”****
Again thanks for the spell check.
****So, you have a problem with people merely posting on this board.****
No I never said that, but I do have issue with peoples’ beliefs, especially when their beliefs come from a religious slaint, infringing on mine or my loved ones rights as free persons living in this world.
****I didn’t say that. However, that won’t stop you from misrepresenting what I write.****
If you didn’t not say that then I stand corrected.
****Irrelevant. That doesn’t show that so-called “same-sex ‘marriage’” is acceptable alternative that will “teach those heterosexuals a lesson.”****
It is relavant to look at the rate at which heterosexuals divorce in this country especially when they argue that gay marriage is wrong on the basis that it will “destroy” the institution of marriage. Also no one is trying to find an alternative to heterosexual marriage. Homosexuals just want the right to express their love in the same manner as heterosexuals do.
****All men who claim to be homosexual may marry women who claim to be homosexual. Since Humanity is either male, or female, where’s the discrimination in the law that defines “marriage” as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman as his wife?****
Stop being facetious. Why would a homosexual male want to marry a homosexual woman? That is a ridiculous argument and for you to continue to use it as if you are offering some type of revelation is just plan silly and foolish. I am sure you are intelligent enough to see the absurdity in such a statement.
****That’s a value judgment. Your value judgments should not be imposed on the rest of us.****
No it isn’t, you can go to the constitution and read Amendment #14 if you still disagree.
****Especially to those who claim to be homosexual who are trying to get the rest of us to accept their agenda.****
I don’t think, but I could be wrong, when I say that homosexuals care if you accept there agenda or not. You can tolerate something and not necessarily agree with it. They are simply asking to have the same rights granted to heterosexual people that is all. Whether you accept it as an individual or people collectively who think like you accept it is not a concern.
****Well, if I agree with you, I don’t agree with God. If I don’t agree with God, I am separated from God. If I am separated from God, I am in sin. If I am in sin, I won’t be saved. That would be bad.****
This sounds a bit like Pascal’s Wager, which to me is a terrible reason to believe in God, but I digress. I am not asking you to agree with me Mr. Incredible. Like I said, I could care less. But I have asked you to explain to me how same-sex marriage is bad or some how harmful and would destroy the constructs on which this country was built. Me personally I think all of this is a distraction to more important issues like the genocide in Darfur, or sex trafficking of young children and women. These are the things I would think as a believer you would want to speak out against and stop, and not on how two adults choose to display their love for one another.

Now as anti Xian as I am (and I am very against Xianity and Islam, No I’m not a jew or any widely accepted religion), I will take issue with the Crusades being a Christian attack to force anyone to it’s beliefs. It was infact a counter strike against Islamic insurgency into Europe proper. To the person stating that the gays have lots of sex parties: How does that differ from the heteros, male and female,that go out to clubs or swingers parties just to get laid? With a 50+% of straight marriages ending in failure (divorce) how can the gays mess that up? I’ve known gay couples to stay together for almost 20 yrs (better than most straight relationships). What they want is the equal treatment that is denied to a “domestic partner” because the laws aren’t required to recognize a domestic partnerships in the case of death benefits and such. To those that are argueing the idea of “god” caring about who you sleep with: Your god is so powerful that things only happen with its permission? Well it allows gays to be born, seems like permission to me. If you really want to argue that point, go live in Iraq, Iran or any other Middle East country. Most feel like you do. Just make sure you wear a big cross on your shoulders.

Christian, neo-con bigots, please stop being so afraid of gay people and stop worrying so much about your own sexuality. It’s like you’re afraid everyone is going to start choosing to be gay or something, really, what is your problem? Afraid you might like men? Get over it already, what the bible and mommy and daddy taught you, that gay people are evil, is just a lie. Grow up, children!

Why the constant clamoring and need to denigrate religion, and specifically Christianity? If you are not religious, then fine, but you win no points with many of us and seem to only prove the point.
As noted earlier, this blog is about a legal question – whether the rights of homosexuals are being violated with the Prop 8 amendment. There is no right to marriage in the Constitution. As far as legal rights associated with marriage, these are already conveyed in civil unions. So, I’m not sure how there are grounds to overturn the vote. Okay, so you don’t like the vote. Maybe try again down the road and see what happens. In the meantime, believe it or not, life goes on and people can be as open about their relationships as they want.

==These people make me ashamed to be a heterosexual.==
You are free to choose to go homosexual at any time.

What a huge surprise – Jerry moon beam is taking a position now – where was he before? Sorry Jerry the whole state of California is not gay. This is not about people who want to hurt gay people it’s that they have a strong feelings about what marriage is to them.
I can understand why gays feels as they do for if I were gay I would want what they want.
But we are nation of laws not men or we something else when you don’t agree?

Society will never accept the gay lifestyle although, they will tolorate it. The people have spoken on this issue ,if the courts are going to change it then why vote?

==If people want gay marriage to be a Constitutional right then they should legislatively pass a Constitutional Amendment. ==
That would mean a vote of the People. They cannot count on the People. They don’t trust the People. The People’s vote is unreliable. After all, they have an agenda to impose on us. That’s why they shop around for a Lib judge to take the voting Right of the People away.

==Christian, neo-con bigots, please stop being so afraid of gay people…==
We’re not afraid of those who claim to be homosexual. They’re afraid of us. They are heterophobes.
==… and stop worrying so much about your own sexuality.==
God made everyone heterosexual. So, we don’t have to worry about our sexuality. We are what God made us.
Some time after that, the Devil spoke to somebody, and that person, listening to the filthy suggestion, chose to go homosexual. Those who claim to be homosexual are what they have chosen to be.
== It’s like you’re afraid everyone is going to start choosing to be gay or something, really, what is your problem?==
Locally, not everyone is.
And that brings us to another question.
Over the eons, if homosexuality is genetic, you’d think that the population of those who claim to be homosexual would increase. But no. It is constant under 2%. 2% trying to tell the other 98% what to do and what not to do. Beautiful.
== Afraid you might like men?==
Nah.
== Get over it already…==
I was born this way. I can’t get over it.
==… what the bible and mommy and daddy taught you, that gay people are evil, is just a lie.==
That’s what the Devil says, too.

==If people want gay marriage to be a Constitutional right then they should legislatively pass a Constitutional Amendment. ==
The last thing they want is for the People to vote. That’s cuz they can’t do enough to persuade all those people — the majority — over to the dark side. It’s easier to Lib judge-shop and tempt him with BJs, or whatever, to tear up the vote of the People.
We’d like to know where the Homosexual Militia is getting all this money to file lawsuits and everything else. I’d be willing to bet that, if we really looked into it, we’d find a lotta foreign money, money from entities wanting to disrupt this country, to see it fail.

hey mr. incredible – still think the planet is 10,000 years old?… why do you not answer this question? too tough for you?

hmmmm, call me crazy, but i would say the “compelling justification” would be the VOTERS OPINION. again, call me crazy…

Wrongo, Mr. Incredible. I’ll criticise any religion that attempts to force me to follow its tenets. As far as why christianity gets such a bad name right now, its because it won’t keep its nose out of other people’s business. We only bash in retaliation against those who who denigrate those of us who don’t believe, and who refuse to accept your moral code. If you want the bashing to stop, quit trying to force us to beleive your bible and your dogma. Keep your religion in your churches and your homes and the rest of us will do the same. Keep pushing your morality agenda and the rest of us will fight back.

mr incredible – of course you don’t ‘know’ (and hence don’t care) if you believe the planet to only be 10,000 years old… you just don’t want to admit that it is part of your religious dogma… because the idiocy of this fundamental belief of born again christians shows the inherent flaw of lack of logic of your beliefs
so go ahead and continue to avoid this question, it speaks volumes

==I’ll criticise any religion that attempts to force me to follow its tenets.==
Who’s forcing you? Tell them I told you to tell them to stop it.
== As far as why christianity gets such a bad name right now, its because it won’t keep its nose out of other people’s business.==
Christ says that another person’s Salvation IS our business.
== We only bash in retaliation against those who who denigrate those of us who don’t believe, and who refuse to accept your moral code.==
“Denigrate”? Nobody is denigrating.
== If you want the bashing to stop, quit trying to force us to beleive your bible and your dogma.==
So, to YOU, merely posting on a message board is “forcing”? That’s odd.
That would mean that I can accuse you of trying to force your agenda on us.
== Keep your religion in your churches and your homes…==
We don’t have “religion.” We have a Relationship with God, through Christ. It is a gift of God.
However, in direct response to that statement, the answer is, “NO!” Now what?
== Keep pushing your morality agenda and the rest of us will fight back.==
Go ahead. You’re not hurting us.

==mr incredible – of course you don’t ‘know’ (and hence don’t care) if you believe the planet to only be 10,000 years old… you just don’t want to admit that it is part of your religious dogma… ==
No, it’s because it’s not important to the spiritual journey.
==so go ahead and continue to avoid this question, it speaks volumes ==
I didn’t avoid it. It avoids us because it’s not important to the spiritual journey. A scoffer wouldn’t know that.
==mr incredible are you really that ignorant==
Translation: “Mr. Incredible, how dare you push up against us!”
== … methinks thou dost protest too much those who are homophobic are the ones who are scared that they are homosexual…==
If I were homosexual, I wouldn’t be here speaking out against homosexuality:
(Mat 12:24) But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
(Mat 12:25) And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
(Mat 12:26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
(Mat 12:28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
==… and since when did you get to know the innerworkings of God’s mind…==
Since I was born again and He gave me His Knowledge:
(Isa 41:26) Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.
(Amo 4:13) For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The LORD, The God of hosts, is his name.
(1Co 2:16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
(Lev 24:12) And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them.
== keep in the mind the bible has been rewritten over and over translated over and over==
So, just because YOU don’t know the Word of God, that means that I don’t know the Word of God??
==… grow up and trust me…==
…Said the Devil to Eve.
The LORD is my Shepherd. Not you.
Don’t be scared…==
God did not give me a spirit of fear:
(2Ti 1:7) For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
== Ain’t no man ever going to ask you to marry him ==
As Martha Stewart would say, “It’s a good thing.”devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

mr. incredible – the fact that you won’t deny that the earth is more than 10,000 years old shows that you believe in an erroneous philosophy, and hence renders your religious dogma suspect (at the very least)

Whether you are religious or not, the key question here is actually a social one. Marriage is a social institution. It is established in every culture in some form as a means to care for children. The only role the government should have in regards to marriage is to recognize it. That means there are some laws regarding it’s definition. You can’t marry a child, you can’t marry a close relative, you can’t marry a non-human, you can’t marry more than one person, and you can’t marry someone of the same sex. These laws reflect societal beliefs and practices, not just religious ones.
That said, what the State court in California did several months ago was called tyranny. They changed the definition of marriage to include male-male and female-female pairings. This caused an uproar by the people so the government did the only responsible and intelligent thing to do. They asked the people (they asked society) whether or not to recognize this new definition of marriage. Gay and lesbians should be impressed that the people were even willing to consider changing this social institution. However, society said, No. The majority said, No.
Whether or not you agree with this decision is irrelevant. Jerry Brown has only changed his decision about this because he wants to run for mayor. It’s a simple PR move with no real meaning behind it. Society should have the right to determine how social institutions work. Not small groups of people in the government nor small self-made cultural groups. That’s called tyranny. Not democracy. This is not a denial of rights but rather a question of whether the social institution of marriage should change.
Possibly the strongest argument here is the comparison between this law and the Jim Crow laws that banned marriage between couples of different races. However, this argument fails because inter-racial marriages have existed for years even if they were taboo. It’s also hard to define race. The Jim Crow laws sought to redefine marriage and they were eventually struck down. These laws were put into place by lawmakers and not the people, unlike this law. As such, there are too many crucial differences between these two laws to make a strong comparison. Jim Crow laws tried to change the definition of marriage. This law does not. Homosexuality was legal in ancient China and ancient Rome but they never called it marriage.
Why not change the law then? Well, for one thing, society said, No. To overturn this is to resort to tyranny. How can this damage society? In multiple ways. It opens the doorway for other redefinitions of marriage desired by small groups such as polygamy. Churches who refuse to marry gay/lesbian couples are open for lawsuits even though it is against their religious beliefs. This is happening in Europe.
Although we focus here on California which admittedly has the largest homosexual community in the country, keep in mind that thirty states have voted on similar amendments to their state Constitutions and you know what. All thirty. Yes. All thirty have voted that marriage not be changed. As a society, we have spoken. Screaming bigomy and hatred is weak rhetoric. Just because society is not willing to bend over to your demands does not mean we are hateful and bigoted. Christianity calls for us to love homosexuals as people but not homosexuality a behavior. Just as you can love a thief but not approve of their thieving. That’s just my two cents.

it’s like saying the earth is flat, or that evolution is not a fact… if your religion says that evolution is not a fact, or if your religion says that the earth is a mere 10,000 years old, it sort of makes other things your religion says (about gays for example) suspect to being equally erroneous

==it’s like saying the earth is flat, or that evolution is not a fact… if your religion says that evolution is not a fact, or if your religion says that the earth is a mere 10,000 years old, it sort of makes other things your religion says (about gays for example) suspect to being equally erroneous==
It’s not as though you didn’t think it erroneous before this.
As I say, the Devil tries to get us to engage in arguments about piddly things, things not important to the spiritual journey so that he can zero in on that and distract the discussion away from the Word of God. He wants to get us away from God reasoning to human reasoning which is imperfect. When the scoffer is successful in getting a Believer to engage in human reasoning, the scoffer attacks the reasoning of the Believer in order to try to show that faith is imperfect. That’s the way it works.
We are wise to the devices of the Devil.

== …epilepsy doesn’t have physical manifestations.==
There are physical manifestations, maybe even at the molecular level.
== In Sociopathology, barring criminal activity you don’t have any “physical” manifestations.==
Either the sociopaths chooses his behavior, or it is induced by some physical manifestation.
==You’re going to go back to your fairy tale that alot of us don’t believe…==
God didn’t tell me to speak up only when others listen. He told me only to speak up. That I do. You don’t have to like it. You don’t have to receive it. Somebody out there does. That’s all that’s important.
==It only works on those that drank the kool aid…==
Those who are well don’t need a physician.
==Your arguements [sic] are pretty circular and child like (“cuz I was told it was so so it is so”) …==
That “circular” thing you see is your head spinning. Knock off the wine coolers.
==You can try to convince me but as stated earlier, I’m about as anti Xian as you can get (though your Jesus person was nice, I despise xians).==
So what?
== So please, have something to say besides “My fairy god daddy told me so.”==
You know that roller on your mouse, or the “page down” and “page up” keys? You can use them to scroll past my messages.

Either the sociopaths chooses his behavior >>> Either the sociopath chooses…

==Aside from the seizures, the epilepsy doesn’t have physical manifestations.==
Ultimately, something physical causes epilepsy. It may be a screwed up neuron, or a gunked up synapse.
A sociopath is a screwed up thinker. Over time, he has accumulated thoughts, suggestions and ideas that make their way into his subconscience, where he cannot, without help, manipulate them, but they can manipulate him. It’s the result of choices made over a period of time. This condition may result in, or translate into, some physical problem which exerts, perhaps, some pressure on some blood vessel, or some ganglion, further messin’ with his flow.
Those who claim to be homosexual are screwed up thinkers. It is not some physical manifestation that makes them homosexual; rather it is their choice of conduct over a period of time which may lead to some physical manifestation that may look different under a scope. It’s like some screwed up thinking leads to hives. In Sociopathology, barring criminal activity you don’t have any “physical” manifestations.

==it’s like saying the earth is flat, or that evolution is not a fact… if your religion says that evolution is not a fact, or if your religion says that the earth is a mere 10,000 years old, it sort of makes other things your religion says (about gays for example) suspect to being equally erroneous==
Okay, walk me through what you want me to say.

“Mr. Incredible”
You really need to think outside the box (Bible). Take a class on logic. Your responses to some very sound arguments are cripled at best.
For everyone else, we are wasting our time.

not really mediocre, I don’t need a physician thanks for such concern. Your arguements are so circular I can guess their basic message without reading them. Mainly: “Blah blah blah god, blah blah blah bible….” Frankly, ex deus machina is more likely to be correct. Your arguement starts that all things from genetics have physical manifestations (like skin tone are visible) to invisible (internal neurons) to some twisted form of psychology. So sociopathology is due to a messed up brain huh? Possible. Since you have no use for physicians or their studies “you’ll probably lambast this comment” but if that’s true then Show me where the evidence is. Could it more likely be that the brain is only processing input differently but with as much “logic” as the next person. Using your reasoning, we should labotomize all such defected people, and literally make them into vegetables?THAT’S a life to be proud of. Just reading your posts reminds me of a kid trying to defend their positions they take because “mommy and daddy said it’s true!”. At least I can understand a kid using that line of thought. You…you aren’t even trying to move beyond the child like literalism and into higher level arguements. Sad..

That latent homosexuality theory makes perfect sense. I notice that you set off quotations with == instead of the normal “. Very phallic.

==it’s like saying the earth is flat, or that evolution is not a fact… if your religion says that evolution is not a fact, or if your religion says that the earth is a mere 10,000 years old, it sort of makes other things your religion says (about gays for example) suspect to being equally erroneous==
=Okay, walk me through what you want me to say.=
I think what he is trying to say is that the Catholic Church held up these things to be truth and they were determined wrong so therefore everything the Catholic Church says is true, is potentially wrong. This is, of course, a logical fallacy. For one thing. The whole Earth is round belief is Aristotelian, not biblical, although the Catholic Church did adopt it in a pharisaical move. Secondly, evolution is not a fact. It’s a theory. It’s not called the law of evolution even among scientists who believe in it. Even Darwin was suspecious of it and did not recommend it be applied to humans. Either way, the Bible is fairly clear on certain points and one of them is homosexuality is immoral.

==I don’t need a physician…==
Little do you know.
==Your arguements [sic] are so circular…==
It’s not that my arguments are circular, rather that your head is spinning. All you need to do is cut out those wine coolers.
== I can guess their basic message without reading them. Mainly: “Blah blah blah god, blah blah blah bible….” ==
You’re free to scroll past my messages. You don’t receive them because you don’t need them. However, somebody out there does. My messages are for them.
==Your arguement starts that all things from genetics have physical manifestations (like skin tone are visible) to invisible (internal neurons) to some twisted form of psychology. So sociopathology is due to a messed up brain huh? Possible. Since you have no use for physicians or their studies “you’ll probably lambast this comment” but if that’s true then Show me where the evidence is. Could it more likely be that the brain is only processing input differently but with as much “logic” as the next person.==
Regarding homosexuality, no. Except that the brains of those who claim to be homosexual operate differently because they chose to go homosexual.
By the way, since you did it several times, you REALLY think that the word, “argument,” is spelled a-r-g-u-e-m-e-n-t, huh.
== Using your reasoning, we should labotomize all such defected people, and literally make them into vegetables?==
Now, you’re making up arguments and arguing against them, thinking that you’re arguing against my arguments. YIKES!
==Just reading your posts reminds me of a kid trying to defend their positions they take because “mommy and daddy said it’s true!”.==
It’s too bad you can’t get anything more out of it. It’s not because I’m not trying. You’re just not receiving. However, maybe what I have to say is not meant for you because you don’t need it. You got it together, man. However, somebody else may need what I have to write. Even one person. That’s all that’s important.
== At least I can understand a kid using that line of thought.==
Well, that sheds a whole new light on it, doesn’t it?
In that case, we have to ask how old are YOU?
== You…you aren’t even trying to move beyond the child like literalism and into higher level arguements.==
Translation: “You aren’t even trying to come over to the dark side.”
You finally got it!

==That latent homosexuality theory makes perfect sense.==
(Mat 12:24) But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
(Mat 12:25) And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
(Mat 12:26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
(Mat 12:27) And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
(Mat 12:28) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
== I notice that you set off quotations with == instead of the normal “. Very phallic.==
Is that so? Gee.
==your arguements are lame…==
If they are lame, they should be easy to refute. And, yet, you still haven’t done so.
== And only resonate to those that agree with your obvious basic religious tenets.==
Well, you see, if they don’t apply to you because you’re so perfect, then let them pass you and go to somebody else. That somebody may need them. You don’t want to deny somebody help, do you?
== Since it looks like the majority of people here reject your arguements…==
So what? I’m not running for president.
==… due to your limited resource/arguements, THAT is why you are labled as lame.==
Romans 8:1 [KJV]
== You haven’t given 1 single solitary thought of your own.==
I have, but they went right past you. In fact, over your head.
== You’ve given one after another example from a childrens fairy tale with no real thought process required.==
That’s how you precluded yourself from any consideration of the sense in my posts. You hinder yourself. However, there is at least one other out there who is not hindering, and what I am saying is helping. That’s all that’s important.
== You are reminding people of a parrot.==
Oh, well.
== You’re obviously a fundamentalist Xian. Great. Good for you, you obviously like that flavor kool aid. Now what thoughts do you have of your own?==
The ones I have already given you.

We know that those who claim to be homosexual, their activists and their supporters are choking on that question.

Oh please mighty mediocre, enlighten me at to how I am hindering myself from your posts? Please I beg of you

Here’s a novel thought: If you don’t like gay marriage, don’t get married to a gay person!

== You’ve given one after another example from a childrens fairy tale with no real thought process required.==
==enlighten me at to how I am hindering myself from your posts?==
At preparing what mind you have left with that kind of thinking. Thereby, you preclude yourself from being enlightened by anything I write.
Now, I don’t care whether you’re enlightened, or not. I prefer that you are. However, if you don’t receive what I write, that’s fine. Maybe you don’t need it. Maybe it doesn’t apply to you. That’s great. But, somewhere out there, there’s somebody who DOES need it and they want it. Who are YOU to try to stop them from getting it?

Y’know, it’s the wrong PR — VERY wrong — for the homosexual militancy to be trying to deny the great People of the great State of California the Right to vote. They are telling the People of the state that their votes don’t count, that the only vote that counts is that of a shopped-for, “uncle”-blabbering, Lib judge. They are telling the People of the state that the People no longer have a say-so, that they can expect never to finalize an issue with their vote so that they can have peace and quiet.
Wake up and be prepared to take back your Right to vote and to make it stick! Vote OUT whatever-sucking Lib judges and vote IN judges who will adhere to the law, rather than to “girly boys” [thank you Arno'd, for that]

Correction, shouldn’t have to be asked for

==you said it yourself that gays can get married, just to a woman or man (which ever is opposite their gender). That’s fair?==
That’s legal. That equal protection.
== If your goal is to get me to your line of thinking (you know childlike) forget it.==
I know. You’re already there.
== The “Well this book told me so!” excuse didn’t fly when I was a kid, it won’t fly now.==
Yeah, we know. You’re stubborn.
== Who are you to impose religious tenets on a public that is largely secular?==
You mean to tell me — tell US — that we are imposing merely by posting messages??? Wow! The Word of God must be very powerful! He’s got you people squirming.
== With regards to the priest (Medic by training in the ARMY), he could argue his points with or without the fairy tale and still get people to talk to him afterwards.==
BFD.
== As I said, if you don’t like gay marriage, don’t get married to a gay person.==
I don’t, and I won’t.
Now what?
== Asking to be recognized as a human being…==
Who’s not recognizing those who claim to be homosexual as humans?
Now, since those who claim to be homosexual are appealing to the animal kingdom for help in their arguments and in their sex lives, how is it that they want to be recognized as humans when they want to revert back to animal ways?
==… with the right to love someone…==
Loving someone isn’t subject to the Bill of Rights. Nobody is stopping anybody from loving anybody.
==… and you aren’t hurting anyone else==
That’s the PR, anyway.
==If your invisible friend in the sky cares more about blind obedience than love, then it’s a cruel bastard indeed and not worthy of any followers.==
If YOUR idea of love is that we keep quiet and let you do whatever you want without nary a word, you are deceived.
God, through Jesus, tells us to speak up. That we do.
Now what?
== BTW, yeah I messed up that line…should have read AND I could care less?==
So, if you could care less, that means that there is room for caring. So, you DO care what we write and what we say. Now we’re getting somewhere. You’re making progress.

Y’know why those who claim to be homosexual, their rabidly militant supporters and activists are jumping all over me? For the same reason that the secularists and humanists jump all over Christianity — that is, it’s working. The things I write stick in their craws. I threatened their agenda with accurate portrayals of their agenda. I expose them. Otherwise, they wouldn’t give me two seconds’ worth of thought. I must be doing something right.

Dubious
Indefensible
Questionable
AKA DIQ

Where, in the Word of God, does God say that a marital union other than that of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, is Godly?
In the so-called “same-sex ‘marriage,’” who is the husband and who is the wife? The Word of God says that the man is the husband and the woman is the wife. There is no other Godly arrangement.
Malachi 2:15 [AMP] says that the purpose of the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, is to produce Godly children. This means that God, as the template, joined a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife — WHAT, not who. The template calls for this arrangement to produce Godly children. It does not mean that every couple will produce children. Many Man-caused evil things have occurred since God created the template.
Where, in the Word of God, does God say He created the template for a man and a man, and a woman and a woman?
Were two men to be married, would it concern them that any children that come into this arrangement have no mother?
Were two women to be married, would it concern them that any children that come into this arrangement have no father?
With the two-man arrangement, where is the female component to balance out the male component for the benefit of the child?
With the two-woman arrangement, where’s the male component to balance out the female component for the benefit of the child?

Mr. Incredible,
you are really following the crowd in your views on homosexuals. Most of the Church has sadly also jumped on the band-waggon with the rest of the world.
Homosexuals are an oppressed people. There is no refuting that. Most of them are affraid to reveal their true orientation and try desperately to “fit” in with the rest of society and even pretend to be straight.
I know you flatly disagree with no thought, but it truly is something they can do nothing about. You cannot blatantly ignore this. There are actually many gays who have tried going to counseling (most often Christian psychologists) because they sadly believed that they were an abomination, only to find that no matter what, they cannot change their orientation and feelings.
You need to consider this fact.
Something that every homosexual needs to know is that Jesus accepts and loves you just the way you are!

==”Loving someone isn’t subject to the Bill of Rights. Nobody is stopping anybody from loving anybody.”
I believe that’s covered under the pursuit of happiness right?==
Nobody is stopping anybody from loving anybody.
==Who is it hurting to have gays love one another?==
Nobody is stopping anybody from loving anybody.
==How is it fair that heterosexuals can marry whom ever (barring a few restrictions) but gays can’t?==
Any man of age may marry any woman of age. Individual heterosexuality is not required.
==My comment “and I could care less” should have been translated as Your words are meaningless.==
So what? They are meaningless to YOU.
== I hate christianity and islam.==
See everybody? All that hate. Tsk, tsk.
==You aren’t being ganged up on for no reason…==
I don’t care. I’m handling it very well. You don’t know how easy it is.
==… you are being just as stubborn as I am by hiding behind your fairy tale.==
I’m not hiding behind anything.
== You wouldn’t let a child tell you “My book said it’s so!” and let it stand as a reason but you expect adults to?==
I don’t expect you to do so. You live with the choice and you live with the consequences on Judgment Day. Just be big enough to accept the consequences.
== Hypocrite! ==
The world calls me “hypocrite.” I don’t care. I’m not here to please the world.
== You’re no better than the Islamics with their “the Koran is the only book and is perfect” ignoring basic grammar and spelling errors in it!==
God separates the goats from the sheep. I’m in with the sheep. You take it from there.
==They openly denounce gays to but a little man love from time to time is ok, just keep it on the down low though.==
So they disobey God. What else is new?
==Your bible was put together in 327 AD by a group of men that took what they
wanted in it (you know, parsing that redundant word of god) and leaving out at least 8 gospels (where is that pesky gospel of Judas, or Simon or any of them?)==
You got your history from a comic book.
== You can’t argue outside of religion…==
I don’t have “religion.” I have Relationship with God, through Christ, as a gift from God.
==… and it’s embarassing.==
(Mar 8:38) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
(Luk 9:26) For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.
(Rom 1:16) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
(Rom 5:5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
(Rom 9:33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
== Your comment of BFD about my friend the priest, shows exactly your view of intellectualism and your ability to think on your own. ==
Translation: “You don’t think like me, and, therefore, YOU are wrong.”
==Him, I could respect. He could think and make you want to engage him.==
You gotta thaaang for him, huh.
== You? You’re just a target…==
Jesus said that I WOULD be one.
==… and you make yourself one.==
By standing up to you people. Sure.

==Mr. Incredible,
you are really following the crowd in your views on homosexuals.==
I follow no crowd. I’m not running for president.
==Most of the Church has sadly also jumped on the band-waggon with the rest of the world.==
Only few will find the gate.
==Homosexuals are an oppressed people.==
No, they aren’t.
==Most of them are affraid to reveal their true orientation and try desperately to “fit” in with the rest of society and even pretend to be straight.==
That’s the choice they make.
==… it truly is something they can do nothing about.==
Yes, they can. They choose not to want to.
== You cannot blatantly ignore this.==
I’m doing the best I can. I’m only one person.
== There are actually many gays who have tried going to counseling (most often Christian psychologists) because they sadly believed that they were an abomination, only to find that no matter what, they cannot change their orientation and feelings.==
Actually, they didn’t want a change. We keep down side. They just wanted an excuse.
==Something that every homosexual needs to know is that Jesus accepts and loves you just the way you are! ==
God loves all. He says He will not save all. Jesus said few will find the gate. Neither God, nor Jesus, accept the disobedient. They will not treat the disobedient as they treat the obedient.

Actually, they didn’t want a change. We keep down side. They just wanted an excuse. >>>> Actually, they didn’t want to change. They wanted an excuse to say that they tried and failed to change so they didn’t have to change.

==your Xmas celebration….It’s really Yule and predates your religion by a few thousand years.==
Even if that’s true — and I doubt that it is — that doesn’t change the celebration we have of Jesus’ Birth that day.

== You slaughtered a whole belief system…==
Did I “slaughter” the whole b’lief system, by my little ol’ self? Or did those of the b’lief system see the Light and “slaughter” it themselves? We guess that, from YOUR perspective, it’s difficult to tell, huh.

The government just needs to get out of the marriage business and change to granting couples rights through civil unions. After the change don’t give any legal recognition or legal weight to marriage certificates for marriages after that date. After making the switch to civil unions the definition of marriage becomes irrelevant to the law. Let religions and most religious people define marriage however they want to define it, the law won’t care. Then anyone who wants to be married can do that wherever they can have a marriage ceremony done; but they do that separate from the civil ceremony and without any government recognition.

Watch out, BK- you left yourself open to the “so I can marry a goat?” retort these people love to use so much. How adults can say something so childish and utterly inane is beyond me.

I suppose you think segregation should have been left up to the voters in Alabama & Mississippi? Face it, there are occasions where the people should have no influence- especially when it involves discrimination. Rise above it- equal rights should be the goal for all Americans.

Oh, it would not be wise to read through the above garbage- I’ve heard the arguments, they’re cliche and elementary with ONLY a religious basis for support. And we all know religion should never play any part in the law or government. The bottom line is- you are not affected by this. I am not affected by this. The world will not end if they are granted equal treatment. You will not go to hell if they are granted equal treatment. So what’s your problem then?

The only compelling state interest is to get the he** out of the way and stop trying to engineer society. People’s individual rights and freedoms are more important than what the state thinks it needs. Same goes for religion, it is not as important as freedom. I agree that the state needs to completely get out of the marriage business. Nobody should have to ask the state for permission to get married or buy one of their licenses, which is just a money making gimmick, anyway. Consenting adult humans, in any combination or number, should be able to file a simple document with the town clerk that would have the validity of ‘marriage’. Write the law so that that document would have the legal equivalency of marriage in every place that marriage is mentioned in the law and tax code. That document could have a time limit, or be invalidated or changed at the wish of the signatories, just like any contract. If people then wanted to have a religious ceremony, it would be up to them, but have no valid state or legal function. We do not need or want the state to tell us what our morality should be or to make us beg for permission from them. Social enginerring or being a moral compass are most definitely NOT rights granted to the government in the Constitution, and any law granting or extending those rights should be struck down by the courts.

surf: You’re response is unconvincing: to paraphrase: “I’m not going to read what I don’t like or agree with.” You seem to not like the vote. Had it gone the other way, you would likely be screaming about the ‘will of the people’.
It’s been said multiple times above, but since you don’t seem to be interested, please explain the “rights” that were taken away in the Prop 8 amendment. If civil unions exist and homosexuals have equal legal rights with their partners as married couples, which already exists in California to my understanding, then no rights are being infringed.
areyouserious: The counter to your argument would be that you should keep your views at the dinner table. You do not propose a real argument for those who would vote for Prop 8.
libertarian: We do not live in a completely free society and nor should we. We are a society of laws and, yes, some will be wrong or we will not agree with them. However, anarchy is not the answer.

MIguy – the right to a marriage license… if current ‘rights’ for gays make things equal, then whats the point of a law to keep something from gays?

A marriage license, like a drivers license, is not a right.

First to surfobx31 – I know, and I have a reply. The answer to the childish “so I can marry a goat” retort is that goats don’t have any human rights. We can discriminate against goats all we want.
To MIguy – First, you ignored part of what I said, because I also said that the government should stop granting marriage licenses and change to doing and recognizing civil unions and only civil unions. Then it should stop recognizing marriages that occur after the change. If the government gets out of the marriage business, then the definition becomes irrelevant. Also, if civil unions that grant ALL of the same rights and privileges as being married really do already exist (and I don’t know that that is true), then why was Prop 8 even necessary? What was your purpose? It seems to me that your real beef should be with dictionary publishers. The most important right that is being violated is for the government to not be the vehicle for one group of people to use to impose their religious beliefs onto another group of people. We have a silly little thing called the Constitution that shapes our laws. And one of the silly amendments within it prohibits “the establishment of religion.” When the government imposes religious beliefs onto the people, the government is implicitly establishing religion. And please note that the First Amendment DOES NOT say, establishment of “a” religion. The word “a” is not there. The explicit language does not support the myth that the First Amendment is only meant to prevent the government from establishing one single official religion. That is not what the Constitution actually states. So, if you also happen to be a strict constructionist as most conservatives are, oh well.

if the can reverse prop 8 than leave our our rights to bare arms along,,its only fair

And one of the silly amendments within it prohibits “the establishment of religion.”
The actual ammendment reads :
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
Any LAW that openly recognizes and condones and mandates recognition of that which is contrary to the beliefs of any religious establishment is directly affecting the “free exercise” portion of this clause… Notice the little word
“an” this denotes specificity in regard to laws respecting a specific establishment of a state church entity…
When you keep things in context for the time in which it was written.. we know why this was written…
Further… I read this as meaning no laws for or against non-state religious establishments…

The voters impose their will through the government. The government enforces the laws, not the voters. Any and every law is an extension of the government’s power regardless of whether the voters or the legislators create the law. If the government does not enforce a law, the law is meaningless. If the government does enforce a law, then the government is using its power, not the voters. The biggest problem with democracy is that sometimes it looks like two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for supper. When the voters use the ballot box to force their will upon a minority group we have nothing more than a tyranny of the majority. Again, discrimination is immoral – and being legal does not change that reality.
Of course the belief that only a single man and a single woman (no pun intended) can get married is a religious belief. Nature has nothing to do with it. First, humans are the only creatures in nature to have marriage. Second, many species have multiple mates. So if nature is going to be our model, then why outlaw polygamy? Third, the most frequent rationalization is that every major religion (and every culture) teaches that marriage is supposed be between one man and one woman. Which is not true by the way.
Again, the driver’s license argument is specious that depends upon how one defines a right. Plus, you took what I wrote out of context. If I meet all of the requirements and limitations to get a license, then I have a right to expect to get the same treatment as everyone else who meets the same requirements and limitations that I met and thus get a license. That is called the fair principle element of one way to define a right. Again, no right is absolute; all rights have limitations and requirements on how or when we might exercise them. Let’s see how fast people would say driving is only a privilege is some state was to pass a law making it illegal to drive except for anyone who has naturally brown eyes. As for the marriage license issue, the most important limitation Prop 8 places on eligibility is arbitrary and purely an extension of the majority’s religious belief.
Good grief Bubby, I know what the whole amendment states, I have a copy right here. The part I left out is not relevant. Your statement that, “Any LAW that openly recognizes and condones and mandates recognition of that which is contrary to the beliefs of any religious establishment is directly affecting the “free exercise” portion of this clause…” is ridiculous. Besides, if the government got out of the marriage business, then it would no longer matter. Allowing all human beings to have the same treatment under the law regarding civil unions or marriage does not prevent you from exercising your religion however you want. And what if a homosexual couple’s religious beliefs are different from yours? Then your law limiting marriage to one man and one woman would violate their free exercise of their religion. Legal recognition of civil unions only prevents you from imposing your religious beliefs on other people.
You are free to read and interpret the Constitution however you choose. Just don’t introduce explicit language or explicit meaning that does not exist. I love the way strict constructionists rant about strict interpretation of the Constitution, except when it does not explicitly say what they want it to mean. What I find most ironic is how many strict constructionists are also fundamentalists who insist upon literal interpretation of the Bible and reject contextual and symbolic and metaphorical interpretations of the Bible, yet they are willing to apply those types of interpretations to the Constitution – as long as it suits their agenda. Me, I interpret both of them the same way.

BK: I’m not sure if you’re agreeing or disagreeing whether marriage is a right. There certainly is no Constitutional right and so it is up to the state to decide on the criteria for what constitutes marriage. In this case, the state is saying that to be married you need to be a man and a woman. That’s the criteria – they voted for it – you don’t like the result. All criteria are “arbitrary” in the end. I do like the “tyranny of the majority” quote, as if there should be some other way to tally votes. I know, I know, you were meaning that in reference to taking away the rights of the minority but the problem again is that marriage is not a right.
Your fight against the driver’s license analogy fails in that this has been argued in the form of helmet laws. Motorcyclists argue that they should have the “right” to not wear a helmet; the state disagrees and prevails because driving is a privilege. If the regulation was that everyone have brown eyes, then people wouldn’t like it but it doesn’t make driving a right.
Finally, religion has sanctified marriage because it is a fundamental natural law. A species that does not reproduce or procreate is a species that goes extinct. It is not fair or nice but it is the order of things in life. If you don’t like it, don’t take it up with me, I didn’t make it this way.

we want the people to vote until we don’t like their decision. Then we want one person to make the decision for us as long as it’s the right one. Talk about hypocrisy. We just keep rolling the dice until we get the numbers we want.

And MIguy, you still have not provided a reasonable definition of “right.” The Constitution is not the only source of rights. In fact, the Constitution is not a source of rights at all. The Constitution describes the hoops the government must jump through to limit the rights we have simply because we are human being; it does not describe the rights we have. So, how about I provide a couple of suggestions? A right is something that a person is due because of a just claim, fair principle, or legal guarantee. Webster’s provides these two elements – “something to which one has a just claim: as a : the power or privilege to which one is justly entitled…”
The states disagreed with some people about helmets because of a compelling state interest to limit some people’s choices. The behavior of bike riders who chose to ride without a helmet had an adverse impact on other people. To whit, their choice drove up other people’s insurance costs and medical costs. They squander limited medical resources. Laws that require them to wear helmets hold them accountable for the results of their choice. Personally, I am in favor of eliminating helmet laws on the following conditions: They pay responsibility taxes for their registration and license fees that are high enough to offset ALL of the extra costs they impose on society; OR they sign a release and get a special license plate that declares that if they get in an accident and suffer ANY head injuries, they get no medical care unless they can pay for all of the expenses. How they pay for it is their problem. That makes them totally responsible for their choice and eliminates any adverse consequences on society. So yes, I am saying let them die if they insist on riding without a helmet. In fact, I believe the first and most important test for limiting rights, or simply the freedom to choose, is whether or not the behavior the government is trying to limit adversely effects other people. In general, the person one chooses to “marry” does not harm anyone else.
MIguy – “All criteria are “arbitrary” in the end.” – - NO NO NO. All criteria, or requirements, or limitations are not arbitrary. Not allowing blind people to drive is not arbitrary – that is a reasonable limitation. Not allowing a color blind person to be an electrician is not arbitrary criteria – that is a legitimate safety issue. Picking 18 vice 21 or 19 or 30 as the legal age to vote might be arbitrary. But picking 18 vice 8 is not. There is a reasonable basis for choosing a number – therefore making a choice is not arbitrary. Responsibilities go hand-in-hand with rights, thus being able to responsibly exercise a right is a legitimate factor to consider. The crucial issue is that the government has a responsibility to ensure than any limitations on human rights must have a rational non-arbitrary basis. Equal treatment, due process, pursuing life, liberty, and happiness are basic human rights. By extension from those fundamental human rights, other specific issues become rights. People have a right to have access to all of the legal protections, rights, and privileges that all persons in a marriage-like relationship should reasonably have. If the only way to have access to those rights is to be married, then yes, getting married is a right as long as the appropriate conditions are met – and those conditions are reasonable. Imposing a religious restriction is not reasonable. If the government gets out of the marriage business then it does not matter. Religions have a right to be discriminatory. How they deal with the moral contradictions is up to them.
MIguy – “If the regulation was that everyone have brown eyes, then people wouldn’t like it but it doesn’t make driving a right.” – - Under the fair principle and legal guarantee standards, driving is a right. Nuff said.
MIguy – “Finally, religion has sanctified marriage because it is a fundamental natural law.” Really? You can’t seriously be trying to equate marriage to natural laws like gravity and electromagnetism. Marriage was made up by humans; there is nothing natural about it.”
MIguy – “A species that does not reproduce or procreate is a species that goes extinct.” Irrelevant – marriage has nothing to do with procreation, and marriage is not necessary for procreation. Besides, nature makes homosexual animals, including humans. Scientists have been able to identify over 200 species of animals that engage in homosexual activity. Non-human animals don’t choose. And scientists have been able to identify physiological, genetic, and environmental factors that lead to being homosexual. It is not a choice.

Maleable behavioral tendencies are a poor yardstick to use as a measure of “discrimination”…

Bubby: Your arguments are tired & elementary, just like anyone else who argues for discrimination. Are you an adult? Do you think anyone would even consider legalizing murder? Grow up & evolve. You cannot prove that homosexuality is a choice, and there’s plenty of UNBIASED research to suggest it’s biological. Honestly, given the idea of self-preservation, who would reasonably wake up one day and say, “I want to be one of the most discriminated people in the world. I want to be beaten or killed.” Makes absolutely no sense [to a rational person that is].

MR. Incredible,
You stated,
****I never have. However, those of Joseph and Mary’s time did. I believe them, as witnesses, before I believe the world.****
Thank you for admitting you have never encountered a woman who can conceive a child without having intercourse with a man. I could believe that the flying spaghetti monster also came down from spaghetti heaven and spoke the word of god to the masses. What makes what you believe anymore true than what I believe? There is no way to disprove anyone’s belief no matter how silly they may be perceived to some. My point, your beliefs should be just that, your own. When the beliefs of people like you infringe on the rights of others than that is an problem. A majority of Americans at one point believed it was ok for people to be enslaved in this country. That did not make it moral or just.
****Not quite. Those men took God’s dictation.****
Who are these men that you speak of who wrote the bible? What were their names, and when did they exactly write the things that they heard from god. Let me paint a picture for you. If I were a student who wished to study biochemistry, would I go to a school that specialized in cosmotology? No of course not. I would research the schools and see which were accredited in my field of study. I would also research if the professors were qualified to teach me the subject matter I wished to study. The same should be true of the bible. Why would I believe in writings that 1.)contradict itself, and 2.) writings whose authors I can’t verify are real are not. For all you know these men who you say took god’s dictation could have been mad men, murderers, pedophiles, or even HOMOSEXUALS. Prove to me they were not any of the aforementioned things.
****Nobody is taking any Rights away from anybody.
It’s not up to you to tell me what evidence to bring to the table. I’ll bring what evidence I want. You don’t have to receive it. That’s okay. Somebody does.****
When someone is told they can not marry someone else that they love on the basis of them being the same sex than that person’s right to marry has been stripped away. You are right in saying you can bring what evidence you want to the table, I never said otherwise. Bring whatever evidence you will or want to bring, but YOUR BELIEFS shouldn’t be used to take away the rights of any Americans. I could believe that all Christians should not be allowed to have children because they produce and raise children who believe in Christianity which could cripple the United States to foreign threats. Should that belief manifest into a law simply because I could provide evidence that show that Christians’ values typically promote belief over logic which could have a negative effect on securing American soil? One could say that Christians would pray us out of a nuclear bomb threat or some form of terrorist attack instead of making logically means of preventing such things. Beliefs and facts are two TOTALLY different things and presenting one as the other is simply foolish. What you are doing Mr. Incredible, is presenting you evidence as fact when in fact it is your BELIEF. One that promotes stripping the rights from other free persons.
****Laws are the manifestation of many beliefs about a lot of things.****
True but when such laws infringe on peoples’ right to happiness then that is wrong plan and simple. If these persons are in no way harming or infringing on the freedom of others than it should be no issue, and you “EVIDENCE” does not show either of those to be true.
****I am a citizen in good, Moral standing. Less than 2% of the population threatens to change this society, this culture, this country. I have a dog in this fight, and it’s not going away.****
Your point? Like I said, slavery was popular in this country, the genocide of Native Americans, the internment of Japanese Americans, as well as the Iraq War which killed hundred of thousands of men, women, and children. Does popular opinion make something right. I would beg to differ on the grounds on the aforementioned.
****By the way, all those who claim to be homosexual may marry now:…. Individual heterosexuality is not a requirement for marriage.****
Maybe your and my reasoning for getting married are different. Though I realize people marry for many reasons, I BELIEVE that people should marry because they love each other and they want to share and express this love to the world. Though a homosexual male could marry a homo/heterosexual woman and vice versa I do not see how that translates into my main reason for marrying, or someone they could never innately be physically attracted to. Bottom line its a silly and ridiculous statement.
****You have yet to explain how merely posting messages — freedom of speech — infringes on the choice of the homosexual, alternative-lifestyle, orientation option.****
Where have I said that your posting of messages is infringing on the choice of the homosexual, etc.? What I have said is people who think and believe like you should be in no position to dictate or inspire law that could strip the rights of Americans (when they are not harming or hurting anyone) on the basis of evidence they pull from the bible.
****Again, what you call “gay marriage” won’t destroy the institution of marriage because a man who claims to be homosexual may, at this minute, marry a woman who is homosexual. Individual heterosexuality is not a requirement for marriage.****
Again, this is a stupid argument.
****For any number of reasons. None of them have to be for “love.”****
Again, I realize that, but for me love should be the main one. However, if heterosexuals can do this, so should homosexuals.
****Because it is true and you see it as a threat to your agenda, you want to try to make it out to be ridiculous. We understand.****
I have no agenda in regards to this topic. Like I said I believe this to be a distraction to more pressing issues. But your homosexuals can marry now argument based on your analysis is ridiculous. Again, there is a difference between fact and belief.
****We understand why you would think so.****
I am glad that you do ;)
****I AM intelligent enough to see that it is not absurd at all.****
We can agree to disagree on that one.
****Already explained. A number of times.****
How have you explained numerous times that homosexual marriage is bad or some how harmful and would destroy the constructs on which this country was built without quoting bible scriputers? I don’t think you can, but you have had numerous times to prove to me otherwise.

Marriage is a state by state issue. But “equal protection” is guaranteed by the US Cons. So if the state offers marriage to two consenting non-related adults it can not discriminate on the basis of the gender of those two adults. This has nothing to do with whether a religion performs marriages between same gender couples: UCC, reformed Jews, Unitarians for instance do.