Torture, Gitmo, and the Treatment of Detainees: President Obama’s Three Executive Orders for Thursday

Good!

Good grief!
Give Khalid Sheikh Mohammed whats coming to him. He wants a trial, we need to give him one

Who gives a flying rats how the terrorist are treated? Are you serious? More important issues than worrying about terrorist who have murdered thousands of americans.

Folks, these people haven’t been determined to be terrorists…they’ve just been detained for a long time. If they’re terrorists, try them quickly, label them as such, and sentence them.
Otherwise, why are they being held in a prison camp?

“The Obamaites efforts to hamstring our intelligence and defense personnel in their efforts to nail the terrorists is going to come back to haunt us.”
The creation of thousands of terrorists by the actions of the Bush admin is going to haunt us from years to come.
After 9/11, as a country we demanded blood and leveled two countries.
What do you think the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans who directly lost relatives to US action are going to think?
What is the profile of the terrorist?
Uneducated, unemployed angry young men.

POWs are detained until the war is over just like every single war in our history. It is a terrible precendeent to set when you charge enemy combatants as criminals. Who said these people are criminals? What do you charge them with? being soldiers? This is stupidity run wild.

“Who gives a flying rats how the terrorist are treated?”
For one thing we do not know if people are even terrorists. The Bush administration has repeatedly shown to be liars about this.
Just last week Cheney said only hardcore terrorists were at Gitmo. The same week DoD designated 60 detainees for release. And judge ordered the release of one detainee who has been held since he was a 14 year old kid.
“Are you serious? More important issues than worrying about terrorist who have murdered thousands of americans.”
“Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither” – Franklin

Let’s open a school, Ryan, and give them jobs.
No wait a second. Bin Laden has money. The Saudis have money. Let them train them.

Oops! Sorry can’t send them to trial, he signed that order today too…
__________________________________
He asked to review the current process and cases. Seems like a pretty basic thing for a new administration…especially in light of the Gitmo issues created under the Bush admin.

4:39 PM… Madam Secretary.

3 little words – Khalid Sheikh Mohammed – he’s real, he admitted to 9-11, he wants justice – give it to him.
There are 20 other high value terrorists and scores of others that aided them. The regular “combatants” – POWs don’t normally get released – but if we find another country to really watch over them – fine. the 14 year old – sorry he’s not Oliver the pickpocket – he is an associate of terrorists who if nothing else is a possible source of information. Thats what we need to FOCUS on guys – national security, huh??

First of all we dont know the whole situation there, Bush and Cheny lied so badly we dont Know if some are Dangerous or Innocent at least President Obama is doing the right thing by closing that place to restore our standing in the world and get our respect back,And hes not rushing which is even better. I know your all use to Bush acting without thinking and being a my way or Highway but theres a new sherrif in town BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA!

Let’s send them to Bush’s ranch. He’s got nothing to do now. He could teach them about hard work, honesty and good old fashioned country values, Texas style. They would learn to like us. It would be like a rehabilitation camp for wayward militants.

Terrorist – People who hate us and want to kill all of us.
We need to be nice to them.

We know what hatred they feed on.
It is anti-semitic, it is anti-American, it is against, yes any progress or freedom that will restrain their Islamofascist intents or the inflammation of the poor into revenge.
This is a long time coming from the blatantly obvious fascist connections of Baathism, the victimization “theology” of Qutb and the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood which then mutated into the PLO, Hamas and Al Qaeda.
This doesn’t even get into the separate stream of Shia radicalism culminating in the Iran Revolutionary ayatollah theocracy and their terrorist sponsorship for 30 years – 30 years – thats THRU Carter the peace guy til now
They want what they want. But the real populace of Iraq, Iran and Palestine deserve more – much more – they deserve a chance. Your call to kowtow to the Ayatollah and the worst of the worst will NOT solve a thing.

These are not all terrorists! Actually they are being detained without seeing what evidence the gov’t. has. Do you know that quietly over the past few weeks, the Bush admin. has released some finding they didn’t have any evidence! But, these same people had been held for years. The way they wrote it anyone on this blog could be declared any enemy combatant and locked away! There is nothing wrong with allowing due process, especially since they are NOT POW’s as was erroneously posted earlier!

Let me guess brian..you are with human rights watch who believe that the terrorist should be considered pow’s and not terrorists..therefore the geneva convention does not apply?? If that is the case, you need to stand in front of your local Walmart, I say Walmart because that really must “#### ### ###,” and circulate a petition calling for a detention center to be built in your area to house these poor misguided young men who really mean to do no one harm.

“These guys were picked up on the battlefield, found to be associating with other known terrorists (that UN defined by the way) or “referred” by foreign intelligence agencies.”
And yet we’ve released hundreds of these guys.
Guess our info was wrong.
But hey keep believing the Bush administration who lied about Gitmo not even a week ago.

You dare call “cognitive disconnect’
When you deny 9-11
When you deny that terrorists are like spies and saboteurs where we have every sovereign right to lean on them as long as we feel the need?
When you just want to declare peace when THEY declared war on us 30 years ago and will not stop? When they offer NO hope or change to the people they claim to serve?

“”4:39 PM… Madam Secretary.”
94-2.”
John Cornyn – YEA. Perfect example of Congress’ unique ability to find new and exciting ways to waste time.

One thing that is not mentioned here is that the Armed services were making plans to close the prison, but when they bring up plans to transfer the prisoners to certain areas of the country, the POLS from there resoundingly cry foul. Why? Because evidently these are really bad guys and they might incite a terrorist attack in their district.
You liberal cowards want your cake, but you don’t want the bakery within 1000 miles of your home.
By the way, most of the people released from this facility have returned to their life of terrorism. But ofcourse since that is something that doesn’t go with the current hate America dogma, it seldom gets a mention.
Blame Bush 2012

I bet Bush and Cheney don’t want us to find out too much about who is there because it’s going to turn out to be another scam. They rounded up a whole bunch of people (real terrorists included)and held them just so they could say that they were doing something about terrorism. If you right-wingers are as brave as you claim you won’t mind if we take the time to check these guys out.

Go right ahead.
Hey, Secretary Gates have the Marines escort this gentleman to Gitmo and have him take a look.

what will be really interesting is when the next terror attacks happen (and we all know they will). How many of the terrorists will have been released by Obama.
Maybe if we are nice to all of them they will like us. LOL! It sounds funny but that is the way the Obama administration is going to handle terror threats.
Unfortunately the terrorists will smile with one face and press the button on their bomb with the other. The only way you deal with terrorists is to take away their freedom.

“The only way you deal with terrorists is to take away their freedom.”OMG.. were all terrorist!! Sorry that prolly went over the right-wingers heads!

Some of you people refer to the 14 yr old terrorist suspect being held at Gitmo as a kid. Do you realize the average age that the terrorist start recruiting is at age 6-8 yrs old. They want them young so they can brainwash them. I bet if this 14 yr old killed your family you would not be so hell bent on releasing him.
Besides he is going to now have the rest of his life to get back at the US.

They are having trials.
It took this long for Congress to get its act together to approve military tribunals for these enemies of our nation.
There is plenty of proof and several have already been convicted.
They CANNOT have open civilian trials.
Why? Not only because witnesses will not come forward in open court, guess why?, but also because operations and techniques of ongoing importance would be compromised.
Are you guys really on the same planet as we are??

Does anyone remember the treatment that Daniel Pearl got from the terrorists? These people do not understand reason and will not return in kind our manner of dealing with them.
I also believe we need to hold a high standard but not so high that we make our country weak and exposed. That is what will happen if you release these known enemy combatants.

We will, we have to, for the sake of our nation, give every hope for Obama to succeed against our enemies.
We welcome all Americans to the fight that Obama stated well yesterday
“We say to you now that our spirit is stronger and cannot be broken; you cannot outlast us, and we will defeat you”
I just wish these lefties here to get a clue, Obama is GETTING A CLUE every day from intelligence and military dispatches.

Aarmy?
tHERE IS VAKUE IN SECURITY if it is positioned proper;y in the Community.
Home in a Year?
Some are survivors and really do not care when they go back,some are not ready to go back,Some want to go back.
Depends if rhe really have a life wwhen they come back?
They come back sooner with a ‘Med’ Strategy
Peace
Lore’ Loretta sue Phillips
Independent Business researcher
PO Box # 6785
East lansing,Michigan
58826
onearth4u2b2@yahoo.com

“You liberal cowards want your cake, but you don’t want the bakery within 1000 miles of your home.”
So sayeth the right wing keyboard warrior who acts tough while some 20 year old is killed by an IED.

“It took this long for Congress to get its act together to approve military tribunals for these enemies of our nation.”
Umm big fat bs.
Bush wanted to do tribunals but his way not meeting any US or international standard.
The Supremes told him no.
Bush stated he could not try them in fed court.
The Supremes said no.
The GOP congress dragged its feet on this.
“There is plenty of proof and several have already been convicted.”
“Flanked by Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales, Bush said that “federal terrorism investigations have resulted in charges against more than 400 suspects, and more than half of those charged have been convicted.”
Those statistics have been used repeatedly by Bush and other administration officials, including Gonzales and his predecessor, John D. Ashcroft, to characterize the government’s efforts against terrorism.
But the numbers are misleading at best.”
Yet another Bush lie swallowed whole by Robert.
“Are you guys really on the same planet as we are??”
I am guessing no.
You apparently are on Bushtopia while the rest of us operate in reality.

Didn’t some well known icon of the right-wing say something that started: “Do unto others…” or did this just go out of style?

“Who is going to protect us from people like Khalid Sheikh Modhammed?”
Who is going to protect Americans’ rights from right wingers who are so eager to trade them away because they watch FoxNews and availability bias has them convinced they will be the victim of a terrorist attack?

Ryan quoted: “Exactly. I think right wingers are getting nervous that their heroes may be tried for war crimes. ”
No doubt about that. Today, Senate Republicans delayed the confirmation of Obama’s pick for Attorney General because he refuses to say he WON’T prosecute people who tortured detainees.
It’s a new era, Republicans. The American people will not stand being lied to, kept in a state of fear, watch the Constitution be chipped away at, or see our reputation overseas trashed.

Right-wingers don’t know anything about ‘moral high ground’. It’s too abstract. They do know about the power of fear and are willing to exploit it for their own gain however.

From James: “By the way, most of the people released from this facility have returned to their life of terrorism.”
Got a source for this that you can provide a URL? Because repeating Hannity’s or Rush’s talking points doesn’t count.

Innocent until poven guilty…
by an UNBIAS court! International courts!

brigid..google CNN article for 01/2009..60 proven cases, of Gitmo residents, have committed acts of terrorism that’s the cases that have been proven….To me, and the people that have been blown up, that is 60 too many..Let us hope if kept in the US they are not released in your city…

Unfortunately, all of your are missing the point of the prison. Why do nations detain the soldiers they capture from other nations during a conflict? Its not because they are charged with fighting us, it is to prevent them from returning to the battlefield and fighting us again. It is denying the enemy a resource.
The problem with this situation is that there is no nation state at which we are at war, and thus no clear indication of victory. There also is no set battlefield, it is worldwide. What people must do is take off their peoples court glasses and put on a uniform and understand from defense perspective.
Our soldiers aren’t trained lawyers or FBI forensic scientists, or even evidence gatherers. When they capture a combatant, in the vast majority of cases its because he was shooting at them, or was caught in an enemy safe house or bomb factory, something incriminating put them there. No photos are taken, no witnesses are summoned. Their only goal at the scene is to gather information on who there contacts are, who collaborates with them, so they can find and kill/capture more of the network.
The problem people are thrusting on our soldiers with GITMO is that, if I take this combatant into custody cause he was shooting at me, am i going to see him 6 months later shooting at me again? You will force our soldiers to reduce their tolerance of capture. They will rather create circumstances that the combatant cannot surrender and instead kill him.
I assume by the posts most of you have never served a role in defending the country, or been in the dynamics of a battlefield. But it doesn’t take a lot of imagination or logic to put things together and come up with the conclusion that these combatants are a denied resource to the enemy, not a defendant in peoples court.

Obama with his first performances gives proof that he as President is worthless.He is falling short of his expectations. I think he is getting up to all kinds of mischief. We are going to see all sorts of things….in a short time!

“60 proven cases, of Gitmo residents, have committed acts of terrorism that’s the cases that have been proved”
ROFLMAO.
Why in the world would you believe the DoD on this?

“Why in the world would you believe the DoD on this?”
Because the DoD is made up of men and women of the United States. They are your fathers, mothers, sons and daughters. They are not some “borg” machine out there that churns out lies. Someone who hates America has taught you to think it.

Closing GITMO is more of a PR stunt than anything meaningful. What will be done with the detainees is unanswered. Nothing is really changing except the location they are being held. It is why Bush also looked into closing GITMO, to change perceptions. The difference is that if Bush had done it, it would have just been labeled as a smoke and mirrors tactic and that nothing has changed. Obama does it and its labeled as the change he promised. Its all in how you frame the perspective.
Also, his new “anti-torture” law is nothing new, it already exists in our law system. It is simply a restatement of a law that already exists. I have not read it but I am guessing it just redefined what is torture, including specific terms such as waterboarding etc, which were not deemed torture under the normal definition. Waterboarding is an emotional/ psychological distress tactic (i.e. induce fear). Please, don’t make me post the definition of torture, go look it up yourself.

This country is in such confusion especially since this political joke has been elected to Office that you don’t care what happens just so it happens soon.

“First, there is a law that is strictly enforced that says the military cannot lie to the American public.”
ROFLMAO.
If you really believe this, I have a bridge to sell you.
Its the trifecta for right wingers.
Blind obedience to authority figures.
Justification of genocide and torture.
And then when all else fails blame Clinton!

“Also, his new “anti-torture” law is nothing new, it already exists in our law system. It is simply a restatement of a law that already exists. I have not read it ”
How could you know its nothing new if you have not read it?
Way to flub the right wing talking points!

“If you really believe this, I have a bridge to sell you.
Its the trifecta for right wingers.
Blind obedience to authority figures.
Justification of genocide and torture.
And then when all else fails blame Clinton! ”
I see you are an irrational “left winger” and though I do not want to, I will go down to your level.
Blind obedience to authority figures. Really? What about your blind obedience to left wing propaganda even after having facts presented to you as in the case of the big “lie”, completely ignoring the FACT that Clinton stated the same things about Saddam as president? Who here is showing blindness?
I never justified genocide and torture, nor would I. I contest the definition of genocide fits Serbia. Likewise, I contest that waterboarding fits the definition of torture. Both are not that I have a stake in either one being true or untrue, I am only trying to add perspective to the debate.
For instance, my brother used to frustrate me in the pool by dunking me repeatedly, much like waterboarding. Was I tortured and should I seek legal compensation? Of course not. Did it cause fear? Of course. Was that mental pain? No. So does it fit the definition of torture? Thats debatable, but I lean toward not. Thats just my opinion, not some ideological foundation.

“How could you know its nothing new if you have not read it?
Way to flub the right wing talking points! ”
Because his Presidential directive is not “law”. A law has to be passed by Congress. Thus, the law is unchanged. This directive on “torture” is more a PR stunt than anything. My guess is that it points out waterboarding as “torture” and thus, cannot be practiced. This not law, but an order. Considering waterboarding happened twice in the last 6 years, it will have minimal impact on interrogation tactics. It’s value in the public venue is far more important, sending a message that we will not “torture”, or in other words, use waterboarding now deemed torture. Did it drastically change interrogation tactics? Not really, but the public message is a powerful one, and gives it more political value than anything else.

The case you pointed out on Serbia is well within the definition and in that case, easily prosecuted as genocide. I am assuming they were not collateral damage from the shelling of a town or the like, but rounded up and executed. That is an act of genocide.
I still contend that segmented military age males is not genocide. I don’t care if they were all purple, it was segmented based on potential threat, a criteria not associated with genocide.

And by the way, no right wing nut job would try and defend the Serbs. Milosevic was a COMMUNIST!! The last thing I would want to do is defend a communist.
You know, I’ll run back to ideology here to make happy. Milosevic was a murdering communist pig! Let stamp out communism!

this is about the rule of law. the UN and International Courts do not recognize “enemy combatats” or any other illegal classification. torture explicitly includes waterboarding. torture is, without condition, illegal. so i think Obama’s move is far from symbolic or meaningless but rather an indication that our nation will follow its own laws and international laws. that is very meaningful.

KR—what about Karajic, the architect of the genocide? he in The Hague as we speak. do you think he should go to trial?

“KR—what about Karajic, the architect of the genocide? he in The Hague as we speak. do you think he should go to trial?”
Personally I think anyone associated with killings without a trial should be prosecuted. What I read about Karajic, then most definately. Understanding why he did it doesn’t mean I support what he did. Thats the distinction I am trying to draw here.

KR—thanks. i understand what you are saying now. and i agree with you.

the law: “All nations that are signatory to the United Nations Convention Against Torture have agreed they are subject to the explicit prohibition on torture under any condition. This was affirmed by Saadi v. Italy in which the European Court of Human Rights, on February 28, 2008, upheld the absolute nature of the torture ban by ruling that international law permits no exceptions to it.[123] The treaty states “No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture”.[

“I would say the act of keeping a man perpetually freezing and without sleep would have a profound effect on his senses and personality. Especially if continued for months.”
That is pure opinion, not law. 50 years ago, you would have been laughed at. Today in the middle east, you would be laughed at. Consider many nations, tribes, and communities cut your hand off if you steal. Thats their law.

KR, i agree that it is difficult to determine or differentiate civil war from genocide. Rwanda was very clear-cut and (ashamedly) Clinton did nothing. nearly a million Tutsis were murdered by machete in 90 days. the case of the Khmer Rouge “genocide”, although appaling was much more complex since the choice of who got murdered was much more complex than race. the majority of those killed were done so for political reasons (i.e. educated, elites, ancien regime) which make it more comples. certainly war crimes but genocide. PolPot’s regime mostly killed those who were ethnic Khmer (ie. his own people).
there is a big difference between war crimes and genocide.

Also keep in mind the circumstance that one would be defined as torture would be different depending on what nation you talk to. In the more brutal cultures of the world, waterboarding is not harsh at all, in others like our culture, very harsh. But even our culture has changed over the year, taking a much broader definition of torture then say, your grandfather would define. With it constantly changing, anyone can claim that this practice or that is torture based on any amount of reasoning they wish to put towards it.
So definition of torture is based more on who you are talking to then in any concrete definition or law. It is a giant grey area, with few spots of black and white. Maiming, dismemberment, permanent disfigurement, extreme pain are the typical definitions. Expanding on that depends on who you talk to.

What a great country! We would rather lose 100, 1,000 or 10,000 of our own citizens rather than make a terrorist uncomfortable.
Probably once. Maybe twice.

The idoicy in this thread is astounding.

Let’s see. Close the prison down first before deciding where the prisoners go or what to do with them. Stop the current legal proceedings set up by Congress and approved by the Supreme Court. Come up with a whole new “justice system” to try prisoners without them finding out “sensitive information” such as the code we broke, the spy who turned them in, the methods we used to track them, etc… Give all prisoners captured overseas the right of habeus corpus, an attorney and the right to remain silent…
Complete this within a year.
Everyone is happy

I’d like to thank President Obama. After only 2 days in office he’s managed to make me fearful to live in this country. The inmates in Gitmo were not being tortured. Who wants them in their backyard??? And he might as well offer his lounge chair to terrorists so that they feel comfortable when they are interrogated according to the Army field manual. For 7 plus years we were safe and now he’s turned it around in 2 days. Good work!! What a President.

“Terrorism fails if a democratic system protects it’s democratic way of living.”
Terrorism is a tactic. The goal is whatever group that employs it is trying to achieve. The IRA goal was far different then the goal of AQ. So I don’t see the connection.
“Bush succumbed immediately to terrorist values.He instituted indefinate imprisonment without trial, cancelled Habeus Corpus, and SANCTIONED torture for the first time in America. (Not the first instance of torture but the first that gave torturers impunity)”
Wow, where to start with this one. Again terrorist “values” change with whatever group is employing the tactic. I assume you mean Islamic based groups. I’m not sure where any of the things you list are noted in the AQ manual. Maybe it is, I read it 3 years ago and didn’t commit it to memory. Sanctioned torture? Is cutting off someones hand torture? Thats what happens to you if you steal in some countries (Muslim). Saddam threw people off the top of buildings, mangled with broken bones to die a slow death in a prison. Thats obvious torture. I see no where anyhing nearly close to that is “sanctioned” anywhere. You are most certainly a sheltered person, probably haven’t been to parts of the world that are terribly brutal. Your perspective of torture is far different than the combatants in that prison. Those men grew up in a brutal world. So this just depends on who defines it. Obviously your a Bush hater, so its torture in your book. Thats your opinion. Trust that its not shared by everyone, including some Americans.
“Guantanamo processed people who may or may not have been terrorists. Of those processed through any kind of tribunal, few or none (I’ve lost count) have been found guilty of terrorism, rather they were DEEMED to be guilty of immigration violations, not terrorism.”
Obviously you have no information on how, where, and what circumstances these men were taken into custody, yet feel necessary to draw broad conclusions and talk so pationatly about them.
“If captured on the battleground they would be properly “POWs” if we were truly legitimately at WAR. However, since you cannot be “at war” with a verb rather than a country, their status is confusing. They are actually prisoners of our invasion. As such they should not be treated at a lower standard than POWs.”
You need to go and educate yourself on what is qualified as a POW. These men do not meet that criteria. They are characterized as unlawful combatants. Tailiban for example, if captured in uniform (Black turbin with black overcoat), they are a POW because they were part of a nation group. Most of them are held in Afghanistan in far harsher conditions than GITMO.
“The crucial thing is whether we have now dis avowed torture and unlawful inprisonment without trial.”
Again, see who defines what tactic is torture, especially those that fall in the disputed “grey” area. In a post further down, I explain this in more detail. They are not detained because they are being charged, they are detained because they deny the enemy a resource. In normal circumstances, when we acheived victory, we would release them. However, whats the terms of victory here? You can’t use “peoples court” rules when talking about the detention of people who are trying to kill you.
“I need to know whether the the restriction of interrogation methods to the U.S Army manual and the UCMJ that existed before 2006 or the 2006 Manual which has been altered to allow “Enhanced Interrogation” I am searching for the text of the Executive order so I can determene which manual is now the standard”
I haven’t seen anything like that. The manuals go through periodic changes for a number of things. Anything on interrogation techinics is something that usually goes through congressional committees. You might be shocked to know that many Democrats knew, and even blessed the technics you now call “torture”. It went through a committee.

Put the Gitmo detainees on Alcatraz. That way Nancy Pelosi can keep an eye on them.
The San Francisco liberal establishment seems so interested in making them comfortable, let them see first hand how much their beloved terrorists appreciate their support.

That this green-horn can solve the economy crisis is really a dream that would turn very soon into a nightmare and the silly people who did shed tears at the inauguration to office of this political ‘Champion’ would better to undergo a group therapy or a brain surgery.

Torture? Lying has never been that easy!!

I truly fear for the safety and well being of our service men and women abroad; not to the innocent citizens here. Gitmo was the perfect place to house enemy combatants that have no regard for human life.
I am not ignorant I understand that less than scrupulous tactics were used to get information…that still does not compare to cutting a man’s head off on TV. We can light, carry and support the tourch of freedom and liberty, but we still need to combat an evil that refuses to play by our rules.
We can say over and over again that we need to take the high road, but do you really think this will prevail against this enemy. We did not provoke 911, all we had to do was exist.
“Switzerland is part of the fight against terrorism. There is no neutrality against this threat.”
- Samuel Schmid

This Obama is a big ignorant! In his speech he said that America defeated fascism and communism without missiles and tanks but only with strong alliances and during faiths. What a rubbish! Was the D-day in Normandy carried out without tanks? I don’t think so. Obama’s ignorance is abysmal and that can have appaling consequences. He has the greatest opportunity for public service. He can resign today!

Why does he want to put us in danger, now I feel all my training in survival will come to use. At least when Bush was in office I felt safe to live here, now im scared of what is to come, when he lets them all go. They hate us, I guess, he family to them, why did you dumb democ, vote for him. He’s never been to war for this country, and I think that should be a number one factor to become a president of the US

It’s a pity that the great President Bush should habe been replaced by somebody elected by…..mistake.

Politics is perhaps the only profession for which no preparation is thought necessary. Take Obama for example: he knows nothing but he thinks he knows everything. Isn’t that amazing?