Flight 3407, R.I.P.

What will the black boxes tell us?
What would these have told us?

I live in Buffalo and I think this is pretty tragic. Most people only know Buffalo as a place where we get lots of storms, now they know it as a place where a plane crashed. It is completly tragic. Two plane crashes in the same state in less than a month. WGRZ was on all day telling us the latest info.

I was in that band with Gerry, at the S&G concert in 1981. He was a great musician, and a great, great person. We’re very sad today to lose him.

I first learned of Gerry Niewood when I heard the original Friends & Love concert recording back in the early 70s, when I was still a teenager–his virtuosity on reeds just blew me away. I’ve followed him ever since, and was privileged to finally see and hear him live at the Friends & Love reunion concert in Rochester, NY in 2007, and he was just as incredible then. With him on stage was guitarist Coleman Mellett, whom I didn’t know of then, but thought what a terrific talent he was. And now they’re both gone. It’s heartbreaking.

I do believe in God. It is because I do your opening paragraph upsets me. I can’t recall you attributing the seldom called “Miracle on the Hudson” to God. Were the people on that flight not important so their salvation was not in God’s hands?
P.

I believe in God and I think the plan is that it is guaranteed that everyone will die one day. We just don’t know where or how or what moment. An event like this reminds me to redeem the time, number my days and apply my heart to a wisdom that transcends myself and touches others with the love of God.

Gerry Niewood, sax player extraordinaire — I remember the S & G concert in the Park. You flew. Rest well, and play for whatever free spirits you find along the way.

Coleman Mellet, or better known as Coley to those who knew him back at the De Matha High School Band Program was a very nice soft spoken person who walked the hallways always in a cheerful mood. He was always patient whenever helping out other people during his free time. Helping out other band members who played the clarinet work on their music. From one of the people who was part of the class of 92 as well as the Music Program, Coley touched our lives in one way or another and we will always remember him for the friendship as well as his patience with other people who he helped out along the way during our De Matha days. Coley, may you be in peace at our Lord’s Home. Our prayers are with you and your family, Godspeed Coley.

we fly into known icing everyday. it is almost always a different condition, i.e. you never know til your in it.

Deicing boots on such an aircraft work in cycles. They inflate, deflate, inflate, deflate, and so on, to break off accumulated ice from the leading edge.
Sometimes, while it is inflated, ice forms on the inflated boot, and, when the boot cycle into deflation, the ice remains. That ice distorts the airflow, causing air separation from the upper surface of the wing farther forward, and the farther forward air separation gets, the closer to stall you get.
So, since the stall speed increased and they let the gear and flaps down, that increased their problems and down they went in a stall/spin.
The answer, then, in those conditions, is to add ten knots to the approach speed, just for safety. You can always bleed speed off over the threshold.

My heart is saddened by what must be the horror for the families and friends of the crash victims. If any read this, know that we are thinking of you.

The question remains that, if they were cycling, did ice accumulate WHILE the boots, even on one wing, accumulate and stay while the boot[s] deflated. THAT would be a real problem.
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The question remains that, if they were cycling, did ice accumulate WHile the boots, even on one wing, and stay while the boot[s] deflated. THAT would be a real problem cuz the boots would not be able to break THAT ice cuz the boots would inflate inside the accumulated ice.

By the way, prop blades don’t have deicing boots. They are electrical. However, ice can accumulate on improperly-heated prop blades and impede their efficiency, too.
The same thing goes for engine inlets whose intake of air can be impeded by ice. The lips of the engine inlets are engine bleed-air heated. I use the informal term, “hot lips,” to refer to engine inlet lip heat.

Approval for flight in icing does not constitute approval for flight in freezing precipitation. The maximum droplet size considered in icing is 0.5mm – the thickness of a mechanical pencil lead. Anything larger than this is freezing precipitation and has not ever been flight tested.
This accident is very similar to others where the horizontal stabilizer at the back of the airplane ices up.

==This accident is very similar to others where the horizontal stabilizer at the back of the airplane ices up. ==
We MAY find that the deicers weren’t working on that thing. If they weren’t, and there was enough ice loadin’ up the stabilizer, THAT coulda led to sudden up-pitch and stall and, then, the spindown. The boxes will tell.

Read FAR 121.341
With ice protection, airplanes are allowed into icing conditions.

I remember the kindness of Matilda Quintero – a wonderful flight attendant whose eyes sparkled with genuine interest and concern for those she was serving. I met her on a flight from Newark, on the same type aircraft – 3280 to Burlington VT on JAnuary 22nd. For some reason, her presence and that experience made me remember her name tag. When I saw the news of 3280 – I was sickened. May her family find peace and solace in her memory – the same peace Matilda has now.

Gerry Niewood- Multi-woodwind player (sax, flute) coming in to Buffalo, NY for a concert with Chuck Mangione and the Buffalo Philharmonic Orch.
An old acquaintance, A musical mentor, a true musical genius who was one of the new musical innovators who brought the soprano sax in to a re-birth at a time when jazz fans were searching for a new direction among the metallic sounds of the early seventies. One of the most under-rated soloists who was so melodic in his playing that his improvisations became new melodies of their own. He searched for and found new notes, not in the typical “runs” but explored the fringe of Melodic, Harmonic, Mixolydian and Phrygian modes always coming back to the basic structure of a composition. Gerry was generous in sharing his knowledge and technique to those of us where were young and thirsty for a new and peaceful sound while displaying a uniquely fresh and different palette of tonal colors. I could never get enough of Gerry. Every improvisation was a fresh, new approach, never laying down the same lines. He was an extension of Trane, Shorter, Bechet, and even Herbie Mann. He was a quiet and peaceful soul who didn’t want the limelight but was always there in the section as a multi-reed marvel who mastered all of the woodwinds including the haunting alto flute. Your absence leaves a void that cannot be filled in this lifetime.
Joe Sorrentino- Tenor
Buffalo,NY

NTSB says that all the deicers were working.
If that’s so, the horizontal stabilizer couldn’t have stalled as the result of ice, UNLESS so much ice loaded it up on an inflated device that the ice remained when the boot deflated.

==…to share memories or anything else, please feel free below. ==
“Or anything else”
Tapper invites ALL comments, as you can see.

The writers seem technically cognizant
although the “cuz” and “woudda”
references seem incongruent. Like
the spell check of the computer era,
figure on many planes going down into
a perfect landing on a place other
than a certifed runway at an International Airport/Municipal Airport…like the Hudson River, a
Clarance suburb, World Trade Center,
the Seattle Needle…The computer
can land the plane but a skilled
pilot will know when to over ride
that feature and get “hands on” control
of the aircraft. Arnold Scharzennegger
has offered his Terminators to fly
all US aircraft…The Governor of California is a GENIUS…the fools just
won’t listen to him!

The prelim says that the doomed turbine-prop [not technically a "turbo-prop"] was on autopilot when it hit the ground. The “report” says that autopilot in such conditions violates company policy. We’ll see whether the first officer challenged the captain on the use of autopilot in violation of company policy. If she didn’t, the record will show that she didn’t do her job.

We had Chuck Mangione at our performing arts center last year – I have fond memories of the show and spending time with his bandmembers as I was backstage and transportation to/from the airport.
The guys were great musicians and will be sorely missed – RIP Boys…..and all the others who perished with them.

==This crash kinda cancelles the confidence the public might of gained by the successful hudson river crash.Just another black eye in a already struggling airline industry! sucks==
Oh, for God’s sake, lemme break down the real for you. This is just ONE accident! It’s not indicative of anything in the “industry.”

==Perhaps this new model has other bugs to work out. ==
Every airplane “may” have bugs to work out. Let’s just ground everybody until we are certain that nothing will EVER happen again.

I too live near Buffalo and I believe we acted with warmth and compassion.
I had tickets to the Chuck Mangione concert Friday (2/13) as I have for every Mangione concert within 2 hours of here. I have never met Coleman Mellett though I saw him last in 2007 as I did Gerry Niewood. I last talked to Gerry at Casino Niagara in the Bears Den after a Mangione gig. I am blessed to have the music of these men on CD but saddened I will not see them perform ever again. Rest in peace. I know there is one hell of a jazz band in heaven!!

I am wondering about Flight 3407… It seems to me as if there was a combination of two factors in the tragedy: 1) Pilot error – de-icing equipment engaged early in the flight; ice still on the wings and tail near end of flight; yet, autopilot engaged during approach for landing. Scenario appears to have violated safety standards if not actual written guidelines. 2) Mechanical failure – de-icing features (liquid and ballooning) did not appear work effectively. Also, flaps may have been compromised by weather/icing (i.e., functioned on one side and not the other). Conclusion: A) Misuse of autopilot along with ice on the wings, tail and flaps lead to the pitch and roll or death spiral; B) In addition, there were likely maintenance issues with the ballooning mechanism (on the wings and tail) and the flaps. N.B. The down turn in the global economy may have changed the airline industry in previously unseen ways. Inadequate maintenance is now manifesting as airplane catastrophes or near catastrophes. The record of airplane disasters (or near disasters) that have recently made the news are the Hudson River landing, the hard landing at Heathrow Airport and now the Buffalo Crash. Prior to settling on the “bird strike” as the reason for the Hudson River landing, there were serious rumors of maintenance issues with the aircraft. Assuming the maintenance rumors were accurate – Could a properly maintained aircraft have made it to its original destination or at least nearby Tetoboro Airport and not been forced into the Hudson River?

==1) Pilot error – de-icing equipment engaged early in the flight…==
Crews operating a transport are required to flick the decicers on in icing conditions. It doesn’t matter where they are at the time of icing conditions.