By Theresa Cook

Apr 22, 2009 8:26am

The Note, 4/22/09: Commissions & Omissions: Shift leaves Obama on defense — and gives GOP an argument

By RICK KLEIN A tidy little dispute over legal obligations and prosecutorial responsibilities is now one big fight with political ramifications spilling over. A curious little dust-up between a former vice president and members of the new White House guard is now an intra-administration war. And now that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is making noise (he sat down with ABC’s George Stephanopoulos Wednesday), toss another tough one onto the pile. At the center stands President Obama, tested already on a few national-security fronts, and now directly challenged over his leadership (and with a shift that his White House claims isn’t one giving new life — and new texture — to a dispute). President Obama’s statement Tuesday that charges against senior Bush administration officials are possible after all has enough implications standing on its own policy feet. But place it in the frame Republicans are starting to build around him, and the machinations of the past few days gain political peril. The GOP watchword is “weakness,” and North Korea + Cuba + Iran + smiles + Hugo Chavez + the possibility of US officials worried about prosecution = an argument. (Add some televised hearings, and this storyline has legs.) ABC’s Jake Tapper: “President Obama suggested today that it remained a possibility that the Justice Department might bring charges against officials of the Bush administration who devised harsh interrogation policies that some see as torture. He also suggested that if there is any sort of investigation into these past policies and practices, he would be more inclined to support an independent commission outside the typical congressional hearing process.” “Both statements represented breaks from previous White House statements on the matter,” Tapper writes. This leaves the president defending several fronts: It’s not just the release of the memos, or the change in interrogation policies. Now it’s also about the potential prosecution of those who devised and executed the now-discarded policies. (Look for the GOP chorus to grow louder in the coming days — with current, once, and maybe future party leaders staking out some foreign-policy ground in contrast with Obama.) (Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., the top Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, is our guest Wednesday on ABCNews.com’s “Top Line,” at noon ET.) “The comments [by the president] knocked the ordinarily smooth White House press operation back on its heels. Mr. Obama’s press secretary, Robert Gibbs, spent much of his daily briefing on Tuesday being peppered with questions about precisely what Mr. Obama had meant, declaring at one point, ‘To clear up any confusion on anything that might have been said, I would point you to what the president said,’ ” Sheryl Gay Stolberg writes in The New York Times. Plus: “The debate promises only to escalate in the days ahead. The three Bush administration lawyers who signed the interrogation memos — John C. Yoo, Jay S. Bybee and Steven G. Bradbury — are the subject of a coming report by the Justice Department’s ethics office that officials say is very critical of their work.” Speaking of escalating debates: Ahmadinejad is still questioning the Holocaust, is staying out of the Roxana Saberi case — and says he’s still waiting for a response to his letter of congratulations to Obama, ABC’s George Stephanopoulos reports. “It’s clear he’s feeling his way through to have a deal with this new administration is Washington right now,” Stephanopoulos said on “GMA,” after his interview with the Iranian president. “He echoed President Obama’s calls for new beginning with the United States and Iran, but he wouldn’t commit to sitting down right now and talking over the nuclear program.” The challenge — per The Washington Post editorial: “Mr. Obama has always said that talks with Iran must be conducted under the right circumstances and in a way that advances U.S. interests. The administration won’t meet that test if it allows negotiations to become a means of vindicating Mr. Ahmadinejad’s radical agenda. It should postpone any contact until after the Iranian election in June — and it should look for clear signs that Iran is acting in good faith before talks begin. The unconditional release of Ms. Saberi and [Robert] Levinson would be one.” If the memos move is not a bow to the left, it sure looks like one: “Obama’s comments represented a shift from his administration’s position of trying to keep the focus on the future and avoid a partisan fight,” Peter Nicholas and Greg Miller write in the Los Angeles Times. “But pressure from human rights groups and many liberals — who consider the Bush administration tactics an illegal and immoral use of torture — made that position untenable.” Lots of looking back: “The idea of a ’9/11-style’ commission appointed with the president’s imprimatur was broadly discussed in the weeks leading up to the release of the memos,” Michael A. Fletcher and Perry Bacon Jr. write in The Washington Post. “But the idea was quashed by Obama, who said that such a panel would provide a forum for a renewed national argument over torture and the broader question about the fight against terrorism.” “What happened? Outside forces, some muddled communication within a tight-ship White House, and a president determined to try to get the debate back on his terms,” the AP’s Ben Feller writes. “The tricky part is still going on. He is out to find just the right balance — hold those accountable who may have broken the law but do nothing to encourage the kind of partisan, perfect-for-television investigatory hearings on Capitol Hill that could steal time and attention away from his agenda.” An indication of just how dangerous a game this is — on several levels: “President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists,” Peter Baker reports in The New York Times. The memo from Admiral Dennis Blair: “High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country.” Baker continues: “Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.” The Blair statement released Tuesday night: “I recommended to the president that the administration release these memos, and I made clear that the CIA should not be punished for carrying out legal orders. “I also strongly supported the president when he declared that we would no longer use enhanced interrogation techniques. We do not need these techniques to keep America safe. “The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means. The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security.” Keeping it in the news: “Intelligence and military officials under the Bush administration began preparing to conduct harsh interrogations long before they were granted legal approval to use such methods — and weeks before the CIA captured its first high-ranking terrorism suspect, Senate investigators have concluded,” The Washington Post’s Joby Warrick and Peter Finn report. “The findings are contained in a Senate Armed Services Committee report scheduled for release today that also documents multiple warnings — from legal and trained interrogation experts — that the techniques could backfire and might violate U.S. and international law.” “The methods, including waterboarding, sensory deprivation, slapping and exposure to extreme temperatures, were partly developed from ‘Chinese Communist techniques used during the Korean War to elicit false confessions,’ the report says,” per The Wall Street Journal’s Jess Bravin. And: “The Bush administration put relentless pressure on interrogators to use harsh methods on detainees in part to find evidence of cooperation between al Qaida and the late Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein’s regime, according to a former senior U.S. intelligence official and a former Army psychiatrist,” McClatchy’s Jonathan S. Landay reports. “Congress will mainly be a bystander on the issue of whether to prosecute former Bush administration officials, but its oversight powers could help develop evidence for such prosecutions, if they occur,” per CQ’s Keith Perine. Democratic discontent, too: “This would be the first administration in American history to look backwards and prosecute, rather than let the judgment of history do its work, which is what ought to be the case here,” former Clinton administration special counsel Lanny Davis tells ABC’s Jake Tapper on “Good Morning America” Wednesday. Start that drumbeat: “The lesson for younger officers is obvious: Keep your head down. Duck the assignments that carry political risk. Stay away from a counterterrorism program that has become a career hazard,” David Ignatius writes in his Washington Post op-ed. “America will be better off, in the long run, for Obama’s decision to expose the past practice of torture and ban its future use. But meanwhile, the country is fighting a war, and it needs to take care that the sunlight of exposure doesn’t blind its shadow warriors.” Fitting into the context: “He had gone to Europe not as the voice of his nation, but as a missionary with a message of atonement for its errors. Which were, as he perceived them — arrogance, dismissiveness, Guantanamo, deficiencies in its attitudes toward the Muslim world, and the presidency of Harry Truman and his decision to drop the atomic bomb, which ended World War II,” Dorothy Rabinowitz writes in a Wall Street Journal column. “No sitting American president had ever delivered indictments of this kind while abroad, or for that matter at home, or been so ostentatiously modest about the character and accomplishment of the nation he led. He was mediator, an agent of change, a judge, apportioning blame — and he was above the battle.” ABC’s Teddy Davis notices a recurring theme in GOP responses: “Republicans with an eye on the White House in 2012 are stepping up efforts to portray President Obama as ‘weak’ on foreign policy.” Among the recent entries: “In a Tuesday op-ed for National Review Online, Romney calls Obama ‘a timid advocate of freedom,’ adding that he ‘failed his early foreign-policy tests.’ “ (The DNC has some fun with Cheney, Rove, Gingrich and co. in a new Web video. “Meet the New GOP. Same as the Old GOP.”) Will anything get to him? “The outrage is definitely there, in certain precincts of Republican politics. What’s notable, however, is that it mostly has stayed there — with little or no effect on Obama,” Politico’s Jonathan Martin reports. “He has been blithely crossing ideological red lines and dancing on cultural third rails — the kinds of gestures that would have scorched an earlier generation of Democrats — with seeming impunity. Obama’s foes, and even some of his allies, are a bit mystified.” Will there even be a social-issue backlash? Gay marriage is on the march, but there’s not much of a parade in the other direction. “Beyond the expected condemnation from conservative leaders, the stunning series of events is notable for how little it’s reverberated across the national political landscape,” per ABC News. “It’s almost like the silence is deafening,” said Tony Fabrizio, a GOP pollster. Meanwhile, this from a friend: “Just back from a visit to Pakistan, Sen. John Kerry says the Obama administration’s plan for that volatile country, rolled out last month with great fanfare, ‘is not a real strategy,’ ” per Ken Dilanian of USA Today. “Pakistan is in a moment of peril,” Kerry, D-Mass, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, told USA Today. “And I believe there is not in place yet an adequate policy or plan to deal with it.” (Kerry will hold a hearing on Afghanistan policy Thursday, featuring veterans of that war.) From an occasional friend: “Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) on Tuesday barreled into the second day of her fledgling scandal — touched off by reports of a wiretapped conversation she had in 2005 with a suspected Israeli agent — by trying to turn the tables on government eavesdroppers,” Roll Call’s Tory Newmyer reports. “The veteran California lawmaker reportedly agreed on that phone call to seek leniency for two accused spies in return for help in lobbying Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) for the House Intelligence Committee gavel. But Harman fought back Tuesday with a media blitz, aggressively denying charges she did anything inappropriate and calling on the Justice Department to probe the wiretap and the leak behind the news accounts.” From a non-friend: “Former Cuban leader Fidel Castro put a damper on rising hopes for improved US-Cuba relations by saying that apparently conciliatory words from his brother had been misinterpreted,” per Reuters’ Jeff Franks. “The 82-year-old Castro also signaled on Tuesday that Cuba may be unwilling to make concessions to end 50 years of hostilities with the US because the Cuban government believes it is not at fault for their troubled relations.” Obama’s Wednesday: He tries to break through where he once broke through big time. The president travels to Newton, Iowa, for an Earth Day tour of a former Maytag factory. A positive sign for Organizing for America: “In Iowa, there are signs everywhere of the organization he’s building for his re-election campaign in 2012,” the AP’s Mike Glover writes. “The massive field operation that lifted Obama to his surprise win in Iowa’s leadoff caucuses last year is revving up. Earlier this spring, the president activated his grass-roots campaign apparatus, Organizing for America. The group is holding town-hall meetings across Iowa beginning this week, including events in Cedar Rapids and college towns such as Grinnell and Cedar Falls, which voted heavily for Obama in the caucuses.” “President Barack Obama is expected today to tout his administration’s effort to accelerate the creation of renewable-energy jobs in his first trip as president to Iowa, the nation’s No. 2 wind energy producer,” Thomas Beaumont writes in the Des Moines Register. “Obama, speaking at a wind turbine tower plant housed in the former Maytag appliance factory in Newton, will urge Congress to move forward on legislation to spur that initiative.” Earth Day movement: “House Democrats began three full days of hearings on a massive energy and climate-change bill, inviting testimony from three Cabinet secretaries and more than a dozen captains of industry, labor and the environmental movement,” Jim Tankersley writes in the Chicago Tribune. “Obama, meantime, prepared to visit a wind turbine manufacturer in Iowa this week to champion his push to cap greenhouse gas emissions and boost renewable alternatives to fossil fuels.” “And the political theatrics were only the most visible part of what shapes up to be a frenzied lobbying fight over an issue that pits some of the nation’s highest-powered interests against one another in a tangle of coalitions and alliances of convenience,” he writes. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., lays down his markers: “At this time of economic hardship, it is beyond irresponsible to further raise costs of operation for our country’s businesses,” he said at an energy forum hosted by the Reform Institute in Washington, per Real Clear Politics. “I still believe that it is the time to address this critical domestic and international issue. But my vision for a cap and trade system is mechanism to lower greenhouse gases in our hemisphere, not as a revenue generator for the federal government.” Can Republicans find their marks? “Ask 15 Republicans about climate change, and you’ll get 20 different answers,” Politico’s Lisa Lerer reports. “The GOP’s scattershot messaging on climate change threatens to distract from the party’s primary attack on the Democrats’ global warming plan: that the cap-and-trade system will dramatically raise prices on business and consumers.” Ellen Moran moves from White House communications director to chief of staff at Commerce. “That’s not a common trajectory — Communications Director can be a very, very powerful job, though it appears not to have been in this case,” per Politico’s Ben Smith. “But the move is a sign of how little Obama’s tight, loyal, and mostly male inner political circle has changed since the campaign. Moran was an outsider who never seemed quite to make it in.” Sorry, Blago: “I don’t think this defendant fully understands and I don’t think he could understand … the position he finds himself in,” U.S. District Judge James B. Zagel said in denying former governor Rod Blagojevich’s request to star in a reality show in the Costa Rican jungle while he awaits trial. On the Wednesday’s schedule: “Obama @ 100,” an early evening forum in Washington. “The Nation Magazine is hosting a forum to assess the Administration’s progress and President Obama’s evolving relationship with progressives. Featuring some of The Nation’s top editors and writers, Obama @ 100 will grade the administration’s record so far on a range of core progressive issues, from foreclosures and job creation to the climate crisis, healthcare, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and achieving transparency in government. Obama @ 100 will explore both the policy victories already achieved and the political challenges that lie ahead.” The Kicker: “I think the president has pretty good shoveling skills.” — President Obama, complimenting former President Bill Clinton on his ability to shovel . . . of soil. “that in an f—— twitter nutshell is my life and what I have accomplished so far.” — Meghan McCain, Twittering her (actually quite impressive) resume. Don’t miss “Top Line,” ABCNews.com’s daily political Webcast, hosted by Rick Klein and David Chalian, at noon ET. Wednesday’s guests: Sen. Kit Bond, R-Mo., and Ana Marie Cox, of Air America and The Daily Beast. Follow The Note on Twitter: http://twitter.com/thenote For up-to-the-minute political updates check out The Note’s blog . . . all day every day:

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User Comments

This is a curious faux pas from the president that can only be explained as a cave-in to the left.
Emanuel was clearly expressing the president’s true position on prosecutions on Sunday, but that was before the explosion of outrage from liberals.
http://www.political-buzz.com/

Posted by: matt | April 22, 2009, 8:42 am 8:42 am

Going after prior administrations is opening pandora’s box.
Imagine the future. It is possible that Palin could go after Obama. Would anyone want that?
My example is just to illistrate that because something sounds fun and revengeful today, it changes the way things are done and will come back to bite in spades.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 8:59 am 8:59 am

What did you people think would happen when you put someone with no experience in office. He reminds me of the Kerry tv ad with the wind surfer.

Posted by: billy bob | April 22, 2009, 9:09 am 9:09 am

This is a very bad idea, and if he thinks the pressure from the left has been strong just wait til he gets the pressure from everybody else, including this supporter.
And Dave…Palin? Lol. Please bet me money that Palin becomes President. A lot. Please.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 9:15 am 9:15 am

he facist Left is going down on this one, Obama will NOT be able to release his “condensed” version of memos, and now the NYT and Obama own director of intelligence say these tactics work and we got important info from them
The facist Pigs are going to regret opening this box.. AMERICA IS WATCHING and LEARNING

Posted by: Breaking News | April 22, 2009, 9:16 am 9:16 am

According to an article in McClatchy, Bush
was so hot to find an excuse to invade Iraq that he ordered illegal torture. Iraq was always the goal, the rest was just smoke and mirrors.

Posted by: Cobra | April 22, 2009, 9:18 am 9:18 am

Why is it a “shift” and not a “flip-flop?” You’re trying to protect Obama. Reporters are supposed to be objective, so try harder next time.

Posted by: tina | April 22, 2009, 9:19 am 9:19 am

Obama has a lot on his plate, just trying to clean up after the last administration. It ain’t easy winding down one war, while amping up another, all under “friendly” fire from a former vice president and his insurgent Republican buddies. But he can do it, he has MY support! Go ‘Bama! Go USA!

Posted by: Amy in MaineA | April 22, 2009, 9:22 am 9:22 am

All Obama has brought back is spin! Not a single solid accomplishment. In fact, there is a lot of chatter among the foreign heads of state that says he was not very knowledgeable and meek.
Many foreign newspapers are having a field day! Especially South America.
What a guy!

Posted by: dl | April 22, 2009, 9:27 am 9:27 am

The Rabid Right is circling the wagons to protect Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfield, etc. Not going to work, there are too many of us Indians now that want the mess they left cleaned completely up.

Posted by: Cobra | April 22, 2009, 9:27 am 9:27 am

OH God this is going to be a looooooooooong 4 years.

Posted by: Kitty | April 22, 2009, 9:27 am 9:27 am

Kitty wrote: “OH God this is going to be a looooooooooong 4 years”.
Only if you are a NeoCon.

Posted by: Cobra | April 22, 2009, 9:30 am 9:30 am

“Why is it a “shift” and not a “flip-flop?” You’re trying to protect Obama.”
No, because it’s the same thing and “flip-flop” reads as biased and ultimately is just bad writing.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 9:31 am 9:31 am

WE are a nation of Laws…………going after the Alba Gruab Soldiers that was simply following command and used as the “fall guy” to attempt to clean their hands. Do we as a Nation of Laws, apply these laws to “some” or ALL?. I remember the pregnant soldier fighting for her life, and having to leave her newborn, while her character was assasinated by the Spin to protect the higher ups, after just following her commands. These are not the values nor morals of our nation.

Posted by: sngeorgia | April 22, 2009, 9:31 am 9:31 am

elmer fudd cheney as an approval rating of less than 19%.
it’s the media dust up.
all that’s happening is that obama’s base which was drifting away due to economic issues is becoming solid again over the torture issue.

Posted by: Trend | April 22, 2009, 9:31 am 9:31 am

“OH God this is going to be a looooooooooong 4 years.”
Why is that?

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 9:33 am 9:33 am

And Dave…Palin? Lol. Please bet me money that Palin becomes President. A lot. Please
——————————–
Silky,
Were you promoting Obama as president back in 2005 ?
Anything is possible in politics.

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 9:33 am 9:33 am

“Were you promoting Obama as president back in 2005 ?”
All I knew about Obama in 2005 was his speech at the 2004 DNC. I don’t see your point? We’ve already had a good look at Palin. And it’s not gotten better for her since the campaign.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 9:35 am 9:35 am

Silky,
Was Holder wrong in 2002????
“One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.
“It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not.”
–Eric Holder, CNN interview, January 2002
Thanks to Hyena for digging this one out.
Or was he just pulling anAl Gore and checking the political winds of the day… just as he is today.

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 9:37 am 9:37 am

Obama: Proving daily that he’s the terrorists best friend!

Posted by: dl | April 22, 2009, 9:40 am 9:40 am

Silky,
PLEASE… Ted Kennedy has had a long political career after problems MUCH greater than anything Palin has encountered. Nixon was thought to be washed up and came back to become president. Who outside of Georgia even knew the name Jimmy Carter in 1973? Clinton’s speech at the ’88 convention was terrible.
My statement stands, ANYTHING is possible in politics!

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 9:42 am 9:42 am

Obama: America’s joke!

Posted by: dl | April 22, 2009, 9:42 am 9:42 am

“Obama: Proving daily that he’s the terrorists best friend!”
More like he’s the upholder of American values.
“Or was he just pulling anAl Gore and checking the political winds of the day… just as he is today.”
I oppose torture and I oppose prosecuting. I don’t care what Holder said in 2002.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 9:43 am 9:43 am

If our nation is to cleanse itself from crimes of our immediate past, we have no choice but to investigate fully and call all those responsible to account.
I admire President Obama beyond measure, especially in contrast to his villainous predecessors.
He was wrong in suggesting at first that we merely “look forward.” He is right in correcting that serious mistake.
This is one of many crucial differences between Obama and George W. Bush. I thank God for Obama’s humanity, recognition of error and capacity to adjust his and our course.

Posted by: jsteinberg | April 22, 2009, 9:44 am 9:44 am

This reminds me, I recently watched one of the less widely distributed videos of Sarah Palin being interviewed on CNN during the election – oh, my God, its even more painful after time has passed.
That McCain ever choose her for VP, that Republicans ever voted for her on the ticket, boggles the mind. She’s a naked opportunist, and, as far as policy goes, dumb as dirt. There! That was fun.

Posted by: Amy in MaineA | April 22, 2009, 9:46 am 9:46 am

“Obama: America’s joke!”
We just got done 8 years of the most embarrassing President possibly in the history of this country. You really look like a fool playing that card in the wake of George W. Bush.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 9:47 am 9:47 am

President Obama became the latest Democratic president to emulate John F. Kennedy’s call for national service on Tuesday as he signed legislation to triple the size of the Americorps program and called on Americans to volunteer time to improve their communities.
Thank you President Obama, for your investment in our children and country.

Posted by: jack | April 22, 2009, 9:47 am 9:47 am

Janet N, the person now in charge of keeping us all safe, would not call the islamic extremists “terrorists” last week. This, along with various other comments/actions made by the new administration, makes it seem that the new administration is much more committed to making sure france and company likes us then going after any radical nuts with an agenda to kill American citizens.
If it’s obvious that the newly-elected president is not a big fan of the country that just elected him, is that grounds for impeachment?
Barry O doesn’t want to protect this country to the fullest extent because he probably sides with the terrorists on a lot of issues.
He flies around the world on the American tax payer’s dime, demeaning America with his apologist remarks at every stop along the way.
He obviously acquired this apologist attitude from all of those whackos that he has surrounded himself with starting back in his early 20′s….
-his marxist professors in college
-bill ayers
-rev wright
-rashid khalidi
-michelle obama

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 9:47 am 9:47 am

We need national service. It gives people self confidence, self esteem, and a sense of satisfaction. It will make them more confident in themselves and therefore their country.

Posted by: gus amaral | April 22, 2009, 9:48 am 9:48 am

Silky
Palin is nothing other than an example. Insert any republican you want to instead of her. I used her because of the hatred the left has toward her. Secondly, anything is possible. Not saying that as an optimist, but as an observist.
Your hatred of Palin has deluded my message. He’s opening pandora’s box. What may sound good for you today will be returned in spades tomarrow. You are not the only one looking for “revenge”. Rest assurred that the right will seek “revenge” in the future. Welcome to politics.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 9:48 am 9:48 am

Programs like Americorps are particularly valuable when employment opportunities are scarce. It helps young people learn meaningful job skills and gain satisfaction from useful work. Volunteer jobs, internships, and low-paying entry positions supported by grants often lead to full-time employment opportunities. These programs also pair up retired persons with lots of skills with young people with more energy and enthusiasm than experience.

Posted by: gus amaral | April 22, 2009, 9:49 am 9:49 am

So the new word for the Gop Is WEAKNESS! What happen to Socialist,Unamerican Unpatriotic? The Gop Is throwing Mud against the Wall Hoping it sticks. But what they fail to realize Everytime they Attack or Name call the President Their approval Ratings drop lower Keep it up GOP Soon there will be no More of you yaheee I can live with that!

Posted by: Angie in Pa | April 22, 2009, 9:49 am 9:49 am

“He obviously acquired this apologist attitude from all of those whackos that he has surrounded himself with starting back in his early 20′s….”
Lol! It’s freaking funny, Dave, how much weight you give to this stuff. Do you really think that a grown man of Obama’s age and work resume yields to the attitudes of his associations when he was a kid? Relationships that you have no clue to extent of, nor the slightest idea of their impact on the man at the time, let alone now. It’s time to come to Jesus, Dave. You’ve lost your handle on reality.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 9:52 am 9:52 am

Rick Klein: What do u think? Let those brutes go; so many atrocisities are committed everyday everywhere by govts/their reps in the name of getting desired results, it’s hi time this is stopped and America shld tk the lead.
It’s absolutely inconsequential if he promised u bed of roses for Bush terrorists and takes a second thought on public opinion to bring dem to book.
Your style of reporting makes me think u’re Jake Tapper; are u?

Posted by: Austin Chuks | April 22, 2009, 9:54 am 9:54 am

I say, More is going to be revealed…Could it be that the NEOCONS so Detest President Obama because America was for the “Good Ole Boys”…..and not for One of Laws? And Fairness? The Republicans has been Slime since the 1970′s first putting the Insurance Companies before a sick or dying fellow American, the 1980′s second transfering the big, viable companies to the “third world” countries for practical No pay for their labor, leaving America with Service Focused Jobs such as a burger joint. Deregulated our Country, allowing for anything to happen to us and our Tax dollars, including Banking and other Industries…..I lost my Trucking Company as a result of Deregulations…a non-focus of Education in this country that leads to ignorance and ‘Powerlessness”, A Sick Nation without Healthcare…(another way for population control..(undershy)..may as well be in China) Tax cuts for the Wealthy, leaving 95% that aren’t wealthy feeding their families at the Mercy of the companies they work for…and “scrapping by”…(shy communist) but too cozy with Bankers and Wall Street…Is this why they are So Scared….and yes they Would be Scared of Brand New Policies that will make all of America Great. Just not yelling it.

Posted by: sngeorgia | April 22, 2009, 9:55 am 9:55 am

Oh boy, more and more Bush Administration insiders like Miss Rice’s lawyer are coming out with what they know on this torture issue. Not looking good for the Bush team.

Posted by: Celtic | April 22, 2009, 9:58 am 9:58 am

Silky
The most embarrasing president in history would have to go to the blundering idiot jimmy carter. That man holds the trophy for worst president of all time.
And of what about bill clinton? He was caught hiding his cigar and LYING about it UNDER OATHE. He was also accused of RAPE by juanita brodderick and paula jones claimed that he got a little frisky with her too (there are others, I just can’t think of their names right now).

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 10:01 am 10:01 am

“Your hatred of Palin has deluded my message.”
I don’t hate her. I just think she not nearly smart enough for the job and I think that she’s a whack job.
“He’s opening pandora’s box. What may sound good for you today will be returned in spades tomarrow. You are not the only one looking for “revenge”.”
I’ve said multiple times that I am opposed to prosecuting. Can you read, or are you only capable of copy and pasting? I am not looking for revenge, but there will come a reckoning when Colin Powell writes his book. Hopefully, anyway.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 10:01 am 10:01 am

Now back to the story……….The Bush “folks” allow the “lowly soldiers to be raked over the coals, tried and jailed for carrying out “their” Orders. Isn’t this a Disgrace? The Bush Administration was “BootLeg”. I say, it it Rock, and may the pieces fall where they may.

Posted by: sngeorgia | April 22, 2009, 10:02 am 10:02 am

“And of what about bill clinton? He was caught hiding his cigar and LYING about it UNDER OATHE.”
No “e” in oath. And a president with a mistress? NEVER! You can blame all of that on the world’s biggest a hole, Ken Starr.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 10:04 am 10:04 am

And I’d be careful about citing accusations, lest I accuse you of treasonous behavior and spread the word.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 10:05 am 10:05 am

Silky
Your ability to make excuses for barry’s shady past is frightening.
In audacity of hope (a book titled after rev racist’s speech),barry claimed to “seek out the marxist professors” in college.
I would say those nutty professors and his INSANE “father figure”, the good rev racist, had lasting effects on him.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 10:05 am 10:05 am

“barry claimed to “seek out the marxist professors” in college.”
So what? Is that the same thing as a grown man SUBSCRIBING to Marxist philosophies? I sought out all kinds of stuff in college, because I wanted to learn. You’re familiar with learning, aren’t you, Dave? Seriously, I’m embarrassed for you.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 10:07 am 10:07 am

Dave…poor neocon….NO, PRESIDENT BUSH IS DOCUMENTED AS OF TODAY AS THE WORST PRESIDENT WITH THE LOWEST, LOWEST, LOWEST RATINGS OF ANY PRESIDENT.

Posted by: sngeorgia | April 22, 2009, 10:07 am 10:07 am

PRESIDENT BUSH WORST PRESIDENT IN HISTORY SO FAR
A COMPLETE EMBARESSEMENT TO THIS COUNTRY AND THE PEOPLE!

Posted by: Angie in Pa | April 22, 2009, 10:10 am 10:10 am

Dave, google “bushisms”…you’ll start to understand why W was the most embarrassing President ever.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 10:10 am 10:10 am

Silky
seems Like Dave doesnt Like to Learn or Expand his Mind typical Republican!

Posted by: Angie in Pa | April 22, 2009, 10:11 am 10:11 am

Obama will eventually finish digging his own grave. The man lacks not only experience and knowledge, he lacks dignity. His actions have embarrassed the American people and now he is going to appear “shirtless” on a magazine cover????? This man will do anything for a photo op. In a little more than 3 years, this jerk is headed to Hollywood where he’ll fit in and where he should have been all along.

Posted by: Constanthree | April 22, 2009, 10:11 am 10:11 am

“I don’t hate her. I just think she not nearly smart enough for the job and I think that she’s a whack job.”
If you are going to correct my spelling I will have to point out your sentences that make you sound like tarzan.
When Palin became gov people, dirty people were fired and/or went to jail.. She fought corruption and helped clean up Alaska’s polical scene.
When barry got powerful in chicago, I think he had the slumlord rezko help him purchase a 2 million dollar mansion WAY out of his price range, didn’t he?
But I guess that’s the chicago way.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 10:12 am 10:12 am

EVER wonder why the America people See More of this “bald, red-faced, evil man’ Cheney, more now than we did When he was Vice President?….Thieves and Con men hide in the dark, so people don’t ask questions while they’re into their trade. They say that Lies and Thievery becomes ADDICTIVE. Hope he has a Massive Heart Attack, oh wait….I want you in Jail when that happens!

Posted by: sngeorgia | April 22, 2009, 10:13 am 10:13 am

“His actions have embarrassed the American people and now he is going to appear “shirtless” on a magazine cover?????”
So he should suspend the First Amendment and stop them from running it? Is that what you want to see happen?

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 10:14 am 10:14 am

I don’t believe Obama has ever been investigated the way that Palin was for the trooper thing. And if you have any evidence of illegal activity by Obama, I suggest you take it to the authorities. Otherwise, enough with the noise.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 10:20 am 10:20 am

This Has nothing to do with “Terrorist”, and there isn’t a person in America that go to bed with a heavy heart, or cry for them…..We have Laws……International Laws…..America do not Torture! We do not violate Human Rights. )isn’t this why we went into IRAQ? Hypocrites. Is the the Value we will show the world?

Posted by: sngeorgia | April 22, 2009, 10:23 am 10:23 am

Silky
Bush’s comments (taken over an 8 year span) can’t comparte with all of biden’s genius remarks after he was in the spotlight for a few months.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 10:23 am 10:23 am

Silky,
Obama “owns” the media, “bought” the election, so I imagine he could prevent his photo from being on the cover of some magazine if he WANTED TO.
However, he doesn’t want to.

Posted by: markdown | April 22, 2009, 10:23 am 10:23 am

“More like he’s the upholder of American values.”
Such as shooting 3 Somali teens to save a single American life?
Yet water-boarding a terrorist is somehow OFFENSIVE to our way of life.
That is the REAL contradiction here.

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 10:25 am 10:25 am

Obama is a man who has proven time and again that he is not a man of his word. He used whatever rhetoric that sounded good to get elected, but he has since shown how insincere he really was. He is setting up our country for failure. You can’t be all things to all people, especially global thugs. You can’t sell our country out, which is what he is clearly doing. I had hoped better from him and for our country.
The oversight of the stimulus money is a joke. Now we see CEO’s are using taxpayer dollars to lobby for their own gain. No doubt, the politicians who voted for the stimulus package will also see these same taxpayer dollars filling their own re-election coffers.
It seems to me, there should be more journalistic investigations looking into this. It’s called ‘follow-the-money-trail’. Just look at Feingold’s part in awarding stimulus money which actually benefits her and her husband.

Posted by: Fran | April 22, 2009, 10:27 am 10:27 am

sngeorgia
The terrorists LOVE people like you. You are almost so crazy that it is not worth my time to respond to your posts.
Dropping water down a murderer’s nose to obtain info that could possible prevent additional murders, is not torture, it’s called Navy Seal traing.
However, I am sure you are against EVERYTHING our military does and are not even aware that waterboarding is used to train our military.
Only America could employ tactics that allow info to be extracted without actually harming the scumbags being interrogated, and only anti-American liberals could have a problem with those tactics.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 10:32 am 10:32 am

dl wrote: “All Obama has brought back is spin! Not a single solid accomplishment. In fact, there is a lot of chatter among the foreign heads of state that says he was not very knowledgeable and meek.”
Spin? Are you for real? The previous adminstration had an office in the Pentagon whose sole mission was to spread propaganda about the Iraq war (a war, by the way, that has cost the lives of more than 4,000 of our finest young men and women). It’s beyond me how anyone who participated in the coverup and deceit to sell the war can sleep at night.
As to the charge of being less than knowledgeable, the facts speak for themselves: a president who is a constitutional law expert, a Harvard law school grad and is curious about the world around him versus a president who relies on his gut instinct (remember looking into the eyes of Putin and seeing his soul) and got into and through Yale based on his family name and connections. Hard work and knowing what it is to struggle versus getting by and having everything handed to you.
And this meek business. Folks, this isn’t a John Wayne movie, where you strut and puff out your chest to show how tough you are. Foreign relations requires guile, partners who trust and respect you, and keeping your enemies off balance. It’s not only about threatening military action at every turn.

Posted by: rukidding | April 22, 2009, 10:34 am 10:34 am

Like everyone else, I’m dizzy from all the spinning.
Flip flop doesn’t even begin to describe this.
I personally don’t care. I hear about this in the nightly news and on gma. I think the only people that really care are the rabid extemists from the left.

Posted by: Jen slightly left | April 22, 2009, 10:36 am 10:36 am

Mike C
Glad to see you got your Limbaugh Talking points today in Full swing!

Posted by: Angie in Pa | April 22, 2009, 10:38 am 10:38 am

Mike_C
You really don’t have a clue, do you?

Posted by: unshrub | April 22, 2009, 10:39 am 10:39 am

So Dave Liberals are ANTI-AMERICAN Typical Republican you are No senseful Conversation Just the Same old vile from The far right Loonies!

Posted by: Angie in Pa | April 22, 2009, 10:40 am 10:40 am

What is wrong with going after someone if they broke the law? Maybe we need to have more administrations scrutinized. They have nothing to worry about if they didn’t break the law. The argument some are using is that it would set a bad precedence. How, why? The message is that they CAN’T break the law and get away with it. Isn’t that what this country is all about.

Posted by: unshrub | April 22, 2009, 10:46 am 10:46 am

Hey, ABC! I just love Fox News’ headline “EXCUSE ME?” Appears Obama screwed up again.
Why doesn’t ABC run coverage of this story? Oh, I know. Obama won’t let you.

Posted by: carly | April 22, 2009, 10:47 am 10:47 am

Posted by: Shamaedene | April 22, 2009, 10:50 am 10:50 am

Listen…do you hear it? It’s the newest line of footwear — Obama flip flops!

Posted by: JustMe | April 22, 2009, 10:51 am 10:51 am

I think everyone is missing the point here. Whether it was a “cave to the left” or whatever anyone wants to call it, it was the correct decision to leave the final decision to AG Holder. Why? Because our constitution and laws clearly grant the US AG and DOJ SOLE AUTHORITY to determine whether or not to investigage or prosecute.
I am the first to admit that Obama’s administration looked indecisive on this, but isn’t the most important thing to get it right?

Posted by: Ryan | April 22, 2009, 10:53 am 10:53 am

“Silky,
Obama “owns” the media, “bought” the election, so I imagine he could prevent his photo from being on the cover of some magazine if he WANTED TO.”
Lol. Just live in your own little world there, dontcha?

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 10:57 am 10:57 am

Mike_C,
You have got to be joking!!!
1.Every man is presumed innocent until proven otherwise.
2.How can you compare 3 teens placing a gun to a man’s head, to men who are being tortured over TWO HUNDRED times to get questionable information. How many people have been tortured who actually committed any crime?
3.Where is Osama bin Laden?
———————————–
Shamaedene,
ty for jumping right to it.
Do you KNOW for a FACT that those kids were going to kill that ship’s captain?

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 10:57 am 10:57 am

“Such as shooting 3 Somali teens to save a single American life?”
Yet water-boarding a terrorist is somehow OFFENSIVE to our way of life.
That is the REAL contradiction here.”
OMG. You must be kidding with this.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 10:58 am 10:58 am

Angie in Pa
Liberal patriotism is an oxymoron.
Liberals have been protesting nearly every action taken by America in the last 50 years. As I have said before, any enemy of the USA is a friend of the liberals.
Great liberals in history….
-call the terrorists “freedom fighters”
-invite ahkmadenijead to speak at columbia university
-call America imperialistic
-call Bush a terrorist
-call 9/11 an inside job
-call Cheney a war criminal
-accuse our troops of raping innocent civilians
-exploit the abu graib “scandal” to denigrate our troops
-bow to dicators in monkey suits
-say that America deserved 9/11
-say that America created the AIDS virus
-say they have never been proud of America
-blame America for all of the world’s problems
-hug hugo chavez
-travel to palestine to get Hamas’ point of view
-crank out movie after movie with the same theme: America is a bad country
-spit on our troops when they return home from battle
-travel to Vietnam to sing songs with our enemies
This list is literally infamous.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 10:59 am 10:59 am

I guess alot of you are not very familiar with the laws of the US.
NO ONE is above the law. The constitution of the US is superior. This includes the President who is subject to the law. As I see it, Pres Obama, personally doesnt want to bring actions against these officials. But is it HIS decision to make? I think not. The Attorney General Dept, though acts as an advisor to the Pres is INDEPENDENT. Separation of Powers in action here people.
I dont think he flip-flopped either…HE doesnt want to do this – but HE doesnt really have a say in the matter.

Posted by: Shamaedene | April 22, 2009, 11:00 am 11:00 am

Angie,
Once again jumping to baseless conclusions. I dont have the time to listen to him. I guess you do though…

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 11:02 am 11:02 am

I love how any time somebody changes their mind, the lemmings consider it a “flip-flop.” Rather than simply taking new information into account or responding to over-whelming and/or convincing discussions on the subject. Too often, people on the right mistake stubborness for conviction.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 11:03 am 11:03 am

silky,
obviously you dont see the connection, or you you dont want to admit the obvious contradiction.

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 11:04 am 11:04 am

Mike_C,
You ask those Navy Seals. Obama’s ONLY instructions were…IF YOU FEEL THAT THE CAPTAIN’S LIFE IS IN IMMINIENT & IMMEDIATE DANGER…TAKE THEM OUT.
That appeared to be the case.
You care to compare this with the instructions from the Bush admin?
IF YOU FEEL THAT TORTURING THESE MEN ARE GOING TO GIVE YOU INFORMATION ON AL QAEDA DO SO OVER TWO HUNDRED TIMES???
Is that your point?

Posted by: Shamaedene | April 22, 2009, 11:04 am 11:04 am

“silky,
obviously you dont see the connection, or you you dont want to admit the obvious contradiction.”
No, I don’t see the connection. Please explain. Are these people being tortured while holding gun to the head of an American civilian?

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 11:07 am 11:07 am

I’m waiting.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 11:15 am 11:15 am

Silky
Quit calling waterboarding torture. If dropping water down someone’s nose is torture, what do you call it when the islamic extremists rip our soldiers/journalists fingernails out?
If Navy Seals can handle being waterboarded as part of their training, don’t you think some dirtball with vital info about the next terrorist plot can handle it?

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 11:22 am 11:22 am

And I’m even misquoting the Pres here. He said to use necessary force.

Posted by: Shamaedene | April 22, 2009, 11:23 am 11:23 am

Simple points for all you liberals to try to really consider here.
There is no difference between an individual threatening someone with a gun & terrorists threatening to do harm to our country.
Let us consider – those were 3 teenagers – what happens if they actually do shoot the captain? – they end up dead in retaliation fire! – So would they have really killed him?
You do not KNOW they would have anymore than I do. Only those people right there at the scene in that moment have a true “feel” for the situation. This final decision is theirs to make. As it should be.
Now your in the intelligence community… You have credible knowledge that there will be an attack (just as you have credible knowledge those 2 kids could kill the captain). The difference here is you cannot see the “gun” or the target. But you have in custody, individuals who you believe DO have some of that knowledge.
Your the one there in the trenches, making the assesment. The “gun” is being held to the collective head of all of America. But you now have to wait to see if the gunmen will actually pull the trigger, because you are not allowed to use all means at your disposal to save lives.
Why is it acceptable to kill 3 people who have not as yet actually killed someone, but it is NOT acceptable to use “water-boarding” or some other non-lethal method to save lives.
Please spare me the we are above it all crap. We are not, we are willing to kill to save a single life in one scenario & willing to play “good guy” while many could die in another one.
These are real situations, not imaginary. Yet there the contradiction stands.

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 11:24 am 11:24 am

Dave
Do seek Some Help! you Need it real Bad

Posted by: Angie in Pa | April 22, 2009, 11:26 am 11:26 am

Obama had claimed he would make it his priority, if elected president, to hunt down and find Osama, the leader of “man-made disasters”. Don’t hear much about this nowadays, do you? People sure have short memories. We are killing people inside Pakistan which is not different than what Bush did in Iraq, or Clinton did in Bosnia. I guess it is justified since we are trying to hunt down and kill Osama.
Obama is just going to drag our country down. How is water boarding worse than decapitating people’s heads, just because you disagree with them? Beheadings are gruesome and agonizing for the poor innocent victim. Yet, these man-made disaster people (since we have to be politically correct and not refer to them as terrorists) do it so casually and gleefully.
Obama had no trouble with being friends with his own domestic terrorist (oops), Bill Ayers. or climbing up the political ladder using the corrupt Chicago political system.

Posted by: Fran | April 22, 2009, 11:29 am 11:29 am

Republicans = Disgusting
Republicans = Trouble for the Union/Constitution
Republicans = Lies
Republicans = Wars
Republicans = Not wanted OR needed
Republicans < 0

Posted by: Tally | April 22, 2009, 11:30 am 11:30 am

“”silky,
obviously you dont see the connection, or you you dont want to admit the obvious contradiction.”
No, I don’t see the connection. Please explain. Are these people being tortured while holding gun to the head of an American civilian?
————————————-
Silky,
No surprise that you dont see it. That is why you are you.

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 11:32 am 11:32 am

Silky; So torturing terrorists is forbidden, but blowing away pirates is OK. What a warped perspective. Should we just go ahead and kill all terrorists since killing is apparently acceptable over torture? Makes me wonder what the term “humane” really comes down to. Must be like morals and ethics according to today’s educators. They are teaching today’s youth that morals and ethics are situational things that are determined according to each individual’s perspective coupled with the circumstances of the moment. No wonder this nation and its leaders can’t be trusted.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 11:39 am 11:39 am

Fran; Well spoken.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 11:41 am 11:41 am

Meghan McCain lists her first job at 16 when she “tutored kids after school at a local church”. Given the level of profanity she showed in that blog, I wonder: (1) what exactly was she tutoring these students in-English Gutter Slang?; and (2) was that church a church on the level of Jeremiah Wrights’ “God D**N America” church to tolerate her level of profanity?

Posted by: MNResident | April 22, 2009, 11:43 am 11:43 am

Mike_C
It’s called “clear and present danger”
and there is some ongoing debate as to which actions actually are deserving of such a phrase ,and which are not.
I personally would say a gun pointed at someones head in anger is much more obviously a clear and present danger than a possible future event that may (or may not ) ever materialize.
You may disagree ,and if you are a Republican I am sure you will.
On a side note, it’s funny how the Republicans were calling for pirate blood last week and now they are apparently seeking empathy/sympathy for the “poor teenage pirates”… Obviously a pathetic sophomoric attempt to denigrate the President’s role in freeing the captain, i.e. CIC giving the go-ahead to use “force in extremis”.
Naysayers and obstructionists , that is the New Republican Party (same as the Old Republican Party)
Republicans ,just go away ,you have 0 useful to add and what you do bring to the political table is old ,diseased and nasty. Go away,please.

Posted by: Warren | April 22, 2009, 11:51 am 11:51 am

So this is all the Republicans have to offer – ugly partisan rhetoric? The party of the right has become the party of the irrelevant. I think Obama’s decision to allow the DOJ to prosecute former Bush officials is dead-on. If we don’t set an accountability precedent now, future administration may do even worse. Of course, the buck will stop with these low-ranking officials rather than where it truly belongs – at the top. Concerning Obama’s openness with global adversaries, have you ever heard the old axiom “Keep your friends close and your enemies closer”? What we are rapidly finding is that some of these leaders did not so much have a problem with the U.S., but rather had a problem with Bush. Face it, Bush critically damaged our standing in the world, placing our super power status at risk.

Posted by: DaveM | April 22, 2009, 11:52 am 11:52 am

“Silky; So torturing terrorists is forbidden, but blowing away pirates is OK. What a warped perspective.”
Blowing away pirates who have a gun in the back of an innocent American and are threatening to kill him if they are not paid ransome? HELL YES. The same as it would be in the states if it was a hostage situation anywhere in the states. Teenager or no teenager.
Dave, waterboarding is torture. Have you ever been held underwater for extended periods of time? Obviously not. I surf. I have. It’s utterly terrifying. And I’m not saying these people don’t deserve a beating. I’m saying it should not be the policy of this country to torture.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 11:54 am 11:54 am

“Silky,
No surprise that you dont see it. That is why you are you.”
Yeah, a rationally thinking person, whereas you are a straight-up choke down the memo and regurgitate it partisan stooge. This is not an apples to apples comparison, and that much is blatantly obvious to anybody with any sense.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 11:57 am 11:57 am

As Americans we claim a high and mighty self image while we kill innocent civilians under the guise of hunting down Bin Laden, abort innocent partially born and unborn children lest they become welfare recipients and because their mothers have no obligation to personal responsibility or accountability. We sponsor abortion with taxpayer dollars within the US under the umbrella of welfare appropriations and through foreign “relief” funding in other countries. It’s no small wonder the Obama’s are finding it difficult to locate a church within their comfort zone. Funny thing about churches is they all want to push God’s “mandates”.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 12:01 pm 12:01 pm

Silky; But those pirates may have been completely innocent. They surely appeared to be attempting to extract ransom money and threatening the life of an American civilian, but didn’t they have the right to a fair trial by a jury of their peers? Terrorists do under this administrations reckoning. What? You say they refused to surrender so we had no choice? There are always choices. What’s legal and what’s illegal has become a gray area.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 12:07 pm 12:07 pm

Tally
How long did it take you to come up with that deep post you just wrote?

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 12:12 pm 12:12 pm

By the way, I’m all for blowing away pirates without due process. I’m also for torturing or using whatever means necessary to extract information from captured terrorists. When in Rome do as the Romans do. Didn’t they feed people to lions and crucify people? Don’t the terrorists take great joy in beheading captured American soldiers as well as civilians? Do you really think our reluctance to follow suit will change their behavior by somehow showing them we subscribe to a higer moral standard? I don’t think so. They determine our repulsion by gore to be a weakness.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 12:15 pm 12:15 pm

I don’t remember any democrats who criticized the bush administration with such vitriol and rabid fervor.
It didn’t happen because democrats supported that moron bush (at least semi-tacitly) BECAUSE HE WAS THE SITTING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
Republicans are all just haters who can not/will not deviate from their ultra-partisan agenda for any reason .
Obama and his fresh policies are what Americans voted for ,but Republicans only drag their feet and resist any change ,and this after THEY lied/connived the nation into near ruin for 8 long years (not to mention the other Republican leaders over the past 45 years who did nothing but govern in the interests of a select elite few.
The Union be damned ,as long as the Republican Party can rule whatever is left…that is the New Republican mantra obviously. Selfish ,ego

Posted by: Joe | April 22, 2009, 12:18 pm 12:18 pm

“Silky; But those pirates may have been completely innocent.”
Bummer for them, if that’s the case. Which, of course, it’s not. We don’t have the luxury of trying somebody while they’re holding one of our civilians for ransom in a dingy in the middle of the Indian Ocean with a gun to his back/head/whatever. Somebody has to make a call, the right call was made, and that’s that. Next.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 12:18 pm 12:18 pm

Dave…that would be about 49 years or so.

Posted by: Tally | April 22, 2009, 12:19 pm 12:19 pm

Shamaedene; Do you really believe the president has no power over the cabinet members he appointed. Wrong! He has absolute control of what they say and do and furthermore he’s responsible. The things his cabinet does can be assigned to them from a political perspective but it’s still his responsibility to control them. The man in charge is always responsible for the things that happen on his watch. Authority can be delegated but responsibility always rests in the lap of the leader.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 12:24 pm 12:24 pm

Couldn’t one argue that incarceration of any type is a form of torture? If I was locked up in a cell without women around for an extended periord of time I would consider that torture, wouldn’t you?
Sorry man, dropping water down someone’s nose, forcing him/her to reveal things that WILL SAVE lives, is not torture.
It’s simply a liberal talking point and yet another reason for people to protest something that America is doing.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 12:29 pm 12:29 pm

Joe; Your memory is short. For eight years every thing the Bush administration did or tried to do was heavily criticised by the left wingers, that is except the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which received bipartisan support until they were raging, then the chicken little leftists started their usual protests as if they didn’t expect war to bring expense and casualties and be generally ugly.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 12:29 pm 12:29 pm

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | Apr 22, 2009 12:01:47 PM
The world has entered a new era in geopolitics, not governed by the Religious Right’s interpretation of “God’s mandates”.
In the 20th century, the main threat to international security was superpower conflict – in THIS century, the seriously dangerous problem is failing states. You know, states like Somalia, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Pakistan and of course Afghanistan and Iraq.
Countries like these fail when national governments cannot provide personal security, food, education and healthcare – yes, healthcare that helps PREVENT abortion. Law and order disintegrates. Failing states are a source of terrorists, pirates, drugs, weapons and refugees, threatening countries and babies and churches everywhere.
With human population exceeding 6 Billion for the first time, and demand for grain rising faster than supplies, civilization requires a functioning NETWORK of ALL countries to control disease, manage our monetary system, control terrorism and reach mutual goals such as food distribution and voluntary population control.
The Obama administration is not “weak” – it is acting with the knowledge that America needs to communicate and discover new ways to work with other countries. All are at risk regardless of politics or religious beliefs. If enough worldwide states fail it threatens our entire global civilization.

Posted by: idahogirl | April 22, 2009, 12:33 pm 12:33 pm

It took you 49 years to come up with
Republicans<0? My God, where did you go to school?
It has taken me 25 years to realize…
-liberals hate America,
-liberal patriotism is an oxymoron,
-any enemy of the USA is a friend of liberals,
-voting democrat is easier then working.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 12:34 pm 12:34 pm

Silky,
We agree on the pirate situation. I was actually surprised it took so long to take these kids out. Now we are beginning to hear it was because Obama took so long to finally give the authority to those on site to do what was required.
For some reason, you and others want put down the idea of a threat that does not have that gun perfectly visible in a snipers site. You claim its not an apples to apples comparison. You are dead wrong there. It is the ultimate of comparisons of REAL situations. You want to look at one as black & white and claim lethal force is acceptable to protect a life. The other is not black & white in your view, so therefore you want to restrict our responses.
This is the exact argument I made out here months ago. You want to ride the fence on this because you you dont like the idea that in those dark rooms “we” might be doing these horrible things.
I dont play that game with it, I have no issues with our guys doing what needs to be done – in Both situations. You seem to be willing to sacrifice American lives for one set of your values, yet go ahead…kill em for another set.
the fundamental point you refuse to see is that BOTH are threats to American lives.
You want to paint me as partisan (Hey DaveM – look at this before you paint everyone who understands this stuff DOES work as partisan), yet even Obama’s Director of National Intelligence admits it worked.
=====
But, as first reported by the New York Times’ Peter Baker Tuesday night, President Obama’s own Director of National Intelligence, former Admiral Dennis Blair, wrote a memo to his staff last week in which he said the methods, some of which are said to be torture by legal and human rights groups, were effective.
“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Blair wrote.
Added Blair: “I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past, but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given.”
====
Cheney has indicated that if all the info were released, people would see threats were indeed prevented. I would love ot see those memos in their entirity, but not at the cost of compromising current in-field operatives.
heres a good one for you all…
If you had intel that told you where the pirates were coming from in advnce of an attack on a ship, would you order in special forces to eliminate that threat? Or would you wait to see if they actually went out and threatened someones life?

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 12:35 pm 12:35 pm

“Joe; Your memory is short. For eight years every thing the Bush administration did or tried to do was heavily criticised by the left wingers, that is except the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which received bipartisan support until they were raging, then the chicken little leftists started their usual protests as if they didn’t expect war to bring expense and casualties and be generally ugly.”
No Democrat that I discussed the invasion with at the time was in favor of it. Not one. Though I recall an older couple I discussed it with on a golf course who said that regardless of their feelings, it was important for the country to stand as one. But nobody I knew could understand why Congress approved it, aside from fear for their political lives.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 12:47 pm 12:47 pm

Mike_C, it’s the difference between a potential threat and an immenent threat.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 12:49 pm 12:49 pm

This gives the GOP and argument???
That’s funny, They have been bashing the President none stop since before the election… and this gives them an opening, Right,,,

Posted by: theafalcon200 | April 22, 2009, 12:50 pm 12:50 pm

Posted by: Dave | Apr 22, 2009 12:34:39 PM: “It has taken me 25 years to realize liberals hate America” Not enough years Dave. Today conservatives and liberals are in the same uncomfortable box.
In China, the water table is failing under the North China Plain, a region growing ½ its wheat and 1/3 its corn. Already as China’s irrigation wells have gone dry due to falling water tables, the country’s wheat crop has declined by 8% since 1997. Also in India, 175 Million people are fed on grain produced with water from irrigation wells that will soon be exhausted. Both countries may be turning to the United States for importing MASSIVE quantities of grain.
And if China turns to the world market, it would mean US consumers must compete with 1.3 Billion Chinese with faster-rising incomes. Not a happy scenario; Chinese investors now hold over 1trillion US dollars, and they have been the leading buyers of US Treasury securities.
We are facing a monumental shift away from geopolitics as usual. Our government, conservatives and liberals, must find new ways to work with other nations to transition off fossil fuels, eradicate poverty and improve education to stabilize population growth, and develop new water use initiatives.
The cost is estimated to be 1/6 of the global military spending, basically $200 Billion a year – basically, a new “security budget”. Time for us all to consider a new mind set – thinking that got the world here won’t get us out.

Posted by: idahogirl | April 22, 2009, 1:14 pm 1:14 pm

Mike C
I disagree with those of you who think following the law is for sissies. I disagree with those of you who think it shows weakness to abide by the constituition (no “cruel or unusual punishment” – remember?)
Our constituition and respect for the law is as powerful, perhaps more so, than any other weapon in our arsenal. I am talking real power, not pie in the sky idealism. When a nation is run by those who respect the law, then democracy has a chance to work: people need not be afraid to dissent, issues are openly debated, better decisions are made and the country has the chance to unite behind the decision reached by consensus.
In black and white terms, how did the US become the most powerful country in the world? Scientists fleeing Nazi German and other totalitarian regimes flocked to our shores. Our military strength was developed by many of the people who came here to escape the very mindset you embrace: that torture by the state need not be justified. People who think our reputation as a country of laws is expendable don’t understand the real basis of our strength. (Hint: when was the last time an Ammerican scientist defected to Iran?)

Posted by: Amy in Maine | April 22, 2009, 1:16 pm 1:16 pm

I’m playing devil’s advocate here when I say this:
Those of you saying the Republicans mean nothing, rejected views, etc etc etc…remember, half the people in this country did NOT vote for Obama, and that goes for the congressmen and women as well (majority of Dems who won congressional seats in Nov. won by very little…I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many congressional recounts).
My point is this: half the people in this country did not vote for Obama for whatever reason, be it party, policy, or, sadly, race. To totally discount their opinions, point of views, and intelligence, simply because they don’t agree with the president or controlling party, is wrong and seems to be the path to a fascist state.

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 1:24 pm 1:24 pm

Silky; You have a marvelous way of deceiving to suit your purpose. You possibly didn’t speak to any Democrats who favored the wars we are now engaged in. The thing is all the leaders of your party, those you elected, individually and collectively favored, spoke out in support of, said we must invade, just as the Republican leaders attested at the time. Then for political purposes they began to point their fingers at the other party as being barbaric.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 1:37 pm 1:37 pm

Idahogirl, how much in aid does the US currently send to other countries, including China, to be used in humanatarian efforts? I guarantee it’s more than $200 billion. Here’s a thought: instead of buying treasuries which help fund this very aid and pulls money away from Americans in need, why don’t those Chinese investors put their money into finding solutions to the very problems you named? I’m not adverse to helping out, I just want to know why it’s the US’s responsiblity to solve all the world’s problems, as well as bankroll them, when at the same time, the US can’t be responsible for rebuilding a nation they destroyed (Iraq) or by spreading democracy? I’ve seen other posts of yours, Idahogirl, and you can’t have it both ways.

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 1:46 pm 1:46 pm

Silky:”it’s the difference between a potential threat and an immenent threat.”
You spelled imminent wrong. Regardless, a threat is a threat anyway you describe it.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 1:47 pm 1:47 pm

“Then for political purposes they began to point their fingers at the other party as being barbaric.”
I imagine some were outraged over being deceived, while others were looking to cover up the fact that they voted as they did simply because it was a win-win, politically.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 1:52 pm 1:52 pm

“You spelled imminent wrong.”
Not nearly as bad as misspelling oath, though, is it?
“Regardless, a threat is a threat anyway you describe it.”
Lol. No, a threat is not a threat in this context. Your ability to navigate nuance is like that of the proverbial bull in a china shop, Dave.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 1:55 pm 1:55 pm

Amy in Maine; As usual you twist the facts to suit the occasion. Most of the people who have immigrated to the US did so because they wanted a better life, one that included the American Dream as opposed to the American Promise, whatever that is. They were starving, hopelessly caught up in a dictatorial situation, or fleeing for their lives. They didn’t come here to any great extent because they disagreed with their leaders back home except for those who openly opposed their leaders and feared death because of it. Isn’t it wonderful that we can openly oppose our American leadership without fear of retribution. There will be more and more tea parties as awareness of the direction your leader is taking us becomes more apparent. Only about 1/3 of eligible voters participated in the election of 2008. That’s because many refused to vote for whoever they perceived to be the lesser of the two evils they were forced to choose from, but now some feathers are getting ruffled. There will be a swing in the conservative direction as recession, deep national debt, taxation without representation, and ongoing war grinds on our patience. And many who seldom vote, the silent majority, middle of the roaders will come to the awareness that we’re rapidly progressing into the status of being a welfare state. This administration is taking away the greatest concept that has attracted people from other countries, that being the ability to succeed according to one’s individual merit, the ability to become powerful and wealthy without limitation. Capitalism is under attack from the inside.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 1:56 pm 1:56 pm

seems very suspicious that the obama team blacked out the part of the memo’s that show how well the interagations worked and how many california lives were saved because of them he was selective on the memos why why why you know why

Posted by: i_dream_of_a_jeannie | April 22, 2009, 2:00 pm 2:00 pm

“That’s because many refused to vote for whoever they perceived to be the lesser of the two evils they were forced to choose from, but now some feathers are getting ruffled.”
PLEASE show some kind of support from this assertion, because nothing that I’ve seen in my life has suggested this is the case. People who pay any attention vote. Those who pay attention and do not vote have to be a very small minority, based on my experience.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:01 pm 2:01 pm

Silky
Whatever you say, tarzan.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 2:03 pm 2:03 pm

“This administration is taking away the greatest concept that has attracted people from other countries, that being the ability to succeed according to one’s individual merit, the ability to become powerful and wealthy without limitation.”
You mean it’s not tours of the Baywatch set and In n Out Burger?
And you seem to be assigning your own ideas for motive to people you’ve never met before in your life. I think it’s safe to say that letting the Bush tax cuts roll back and getting everybody health insurance isn’t going to stem the tide of immigrants wanting to come to the U.S.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:05 pm 2:05 pm

The possibility of bumping into Nicole Eggert or the Hoff at a Starbucks in Santa Monica is a pretty significant draw, y’know.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:07 pm 2:07 pm

From Wiki (I know, I know, but it was easy and probably fairly accurate):
“If the Voting Eligible Population was 212,720,027 and there were 131,256,905 valid ballots counted (finally tally), then 61.7% of eligible voters voted in the 2008 Election.”
So basically, a little of a third of American’s support Obama. A third of those in the US do not even vote. I’d say that’s more than a minority, no?

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 2:10 pm 2:10 pm

” I think it’s safe to say that letting the Bush tax cuts roll back”
Apparently you ignore the statistics that show that wile the wealthy benefited the most dollar wise, the tax cuts Bush had in place helped everyone. Bush’s problem was he spent too much, not the tax cuts themselves.

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 2:14 pm 2:14 pm

Silky; I know you say you live in Podunk, Fla. so you’re in tune with the non-city dwellers. There are many millions of people who didn’t travel miles to get to the polls and who seldom do so. For them life goes on as usual no matter whether they vote or not. Those peoples lives will have been affected by the next election and not favorably so. The cost of fuel and the inevitable raising of taxes, the escalating costs of consumer goods without any increase in income will get their attention. Obama won by a slim margin of the popular vote. He will lose electoral votes from the inner city dwellers as well as the rural population because this economic crisis will get worse before it gets any better. Joblessness, loss of homes, inability to meet credit card payments, etc. will make the difference. Once again the people will demand CHANGE.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 2:19 pm 2:19 pm

mmonroeliveson and Mike_C,
The LAW does NOT prohibit LAWFUL killing.
The LAW prohibits TORTURE.
The President (present, past and future) MUST obey the law. The end cannot justify the means.
The law is the law.
mmonroeliveson: Attorney General advises the President on legal issues BUT is also independent of him. No one is above the law.

Posted by: Shamaedene | April 22, 2009, 2:22 pm 2:22 pm

I dream of jeanie
Your are 100% correct. They don’t release the info that was obtained by dropping water down the terrorists’ noses (the same people who cut our soldiers’ fingernails/heads off), because it doesn’t help their cause.
The obama administration constantly reminds me of the land of Oz (pay no attention to what’s going on behind the curtain!), and sadly most Americans don’t even look in the curtain’s direction.
The ignorant masses who actually believe what comes out of the anti-American, socialist’s mouth, pay no attention to detail.
They usually just read headlines and don’t ask questions.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 2:22 pm 2:22 pm

People can get inadequate healthcare attention in any country with nationalized medicine. Problem is most countries won’t allow them to come and stay. We’re just soft touches here. We’ll take anyone. And seemingly the more in need of government support, the more accepted they are. Unfortunately the math doesn’t work out favorably. That’s why most countries that do allow immigration require the immigrant to be a professional skilled tradesperson. Even then they must apply for citizenship or be deported. They don’t allow immigrants who just see the grass as being greener on the other side of the fence.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 2:29 pm 2:29 pm

“So basically, a little of a third of American’s support Obama. A third of those in the US do not even vote. I’d say that’s more than a minority, no?”
I think I might be missing a variable. Can you explain your math and your conclusion?
“There are many millions of people who didn’t travel miles to get to the polls and who seldom do so.”
There are also many millions who did’t walk down the block to vote.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:30 pm 2:30 pm

middleoftheroad; And spending too much will be Obama’s demise and legacy as well.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 2:32 pm 2:32 pm

Silky; What are you trying to say? Are you just being argumentative? First you say nearly everyone voted. Now you say millions of city dwellers didn’t walk down the block to vote. Which position are you taking?

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 2:34 pm 2:34 pm

Again, Dave, you’ve never experienced underwater suffocation if you’re calling waterboarding a drop of water down the nose. That’s asinine.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:36 pm 2:36 pm

Are liberals really naive enough to think that the terrorists will some how like us more now that we have abandoned pouring water on their faces once we capture them?
Liberals need to realize that islamic extremists hate our culture simply because it exists.
Nothing short of the United States tearing down the Statue of Liberty (afterall, she is an unveiled woman-gasp!) and replacing every Christian, Jewish ect place of worhship with a mosque, bascially abandoning ALL of our freedoms and forcing women to wear primitive outfits, will make them happy.
The whole idea of hugs for our enemies has produced horrific results in the past.
Why have liberals not learned from neville chamberlain’s mistakes in the late 1930′s? Or from the killing fields in Vietnam, that left MILLIONS murdered after their anti-war rallies caused America’s early withdrawl?

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 2:36 pm 2:36 pm

Or any suffocation, for that matter. I’ve had two severe asthma attacks in my life, too. Not being able to breath is terrifying.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:37 pm 2:37 pm

“First you say nearly everyone voted.”
When did I say that?

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:38 pm 2:38 pm

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | Apr 22, 2009 1:46:15 PM
“I just want to know why it’s the US’s responsibility to solve all the world’s problems, as well as bankroll them.”
Keep up with current events. China and the US agreed to take investment and aid steps together during bilateral economic talks in December 2008. The U.S. and China together agreed to provide an additional $20 billion to fund international trade. Google the Congressional Research Service’s report on China’s aid for Africa, Latin America and Southeast Asia.

Posted by: idahogirl | April 22, 2009, 2:38 pm 2:38 pm

“The LAW prohibits TORTURE”
…of soldiers of sovereign nations, which terrorists are not, therefore, torturing terrorists is not illegal. That is the law, which the liberals are ignoring.
“I think I might be missing a variable. Can you explain your math and your conclusion?”
Let’s see…60% is approximately 2/3. Half of 60% is 30 percent, or 1/3. Approximately 1/3 of Americans eligible to vote did not vote; Obama won by a little over 50% of cast ballots, and that’s not even including the third party candidates. My conclusion is purely mathematical: 1/3 of eligible Americans did not vote, therefore, only ~50% of Americans who voted truly supported Obama. One could argue 2/3 of Americans did not support Obama, but in that same breath, you could say 2/3s did not support McCain. If you don’t understand fractions or what I’m saying, don’t bother responding…

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 2:39 pm 2:39 pm

I said nearly everybody who pays attention votes.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:39 pm 2:39 pm

Idahogirl, you missed my point entirely and did not answer my question.

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 2:40 pm 2:40 pm

silky; My post disappeared. I asked what is your wishy washy position? First you state that nearly everyone voted, then you say millions didn’t walk down the block to vote. I’m confused.

Posted by: mmonroeliveson | April 22, 2009, 2:42 pm 2:42 pm

“Are liberals really naive enough to think that the terrorists will some how like us more now that we have abandoned pouring water on their faces once we capture them?”
No, but plenty of people from across the political spectrum hold the opinion that it’s more likely that torture will be visited upon our soldiers and civilians if U.S. policy allows torture. Once again, your refusal to educate yourself beyond Chairman Limbaugh’s memo leaves you in the dark. The torture issue is not about getting them to like us.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:43 pm 2:43 pm

Silky
You do know that the terrorists are laughing at people like you right now.
During waterboarding, all a terrorist being interogated has to do is give up the info that he knows pertaining to the safety of the United States, and the unspeakable act of water flowing on his face will cease. It’s that simple.
If our Navy SEALs can endure it as part of their training, slimebags on a quest for an X-rated afterlife can too.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 2:44 pm 2:44 pm

“silky; My post disappeared. I asked what is your wishy washy position? First you state that nearly everyone voted, then you say millions didn’t walk down the block to vote. I’m confused.”
If you go back and read the post, I said that the majority of people who keep up with political issues vote. Based on my experience. You were implying that there is a significant portion of non-voters who don’t vote becuase of the lesser of two evils thing…I don’t think it’s so significant. I think it’s more likely that they’re lazy.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:45 pm 2:45 pm

PO made a comment to his wife during yesterdays tree planting, that I don’t understand:
“I just see you over there talking trash and we planted a tree”
What was he trying to convey?
What is talking trash?

Posted by: IDIDNTGETIT | April 22, 2009, 2:47 pm 2:47 pm

To all the MINORITY 46% or so of americans who voted republican ,here’s the news:
YOU LOST. A MAJORITY IS A MAJORITY ,JUST ASK AL GORE. YOU LOST ,GET IT YET??
UNTIL YOU GET ENOUGH REPRESENTATIVES ELECTED YOU WILL REMAIN (THANKFULLY) A MINORITY AND THUS MORE-OR-LESS INSIGNIFICANT!
NOW SHUT UP!! GET BEHIND AMERICA TODAY OR YOU WILL BE LEFT IN THE DUST !!

Posted by: Brain? | April 22, 2009, 2:50 pm 2:50 pm

Silky
Bottom line is, we are at war right now. A war that we did not start and a fight that we did not ask for. I know liberals refuse to believe that (especially janet nepalitano who refused to use the word terrorist last week).
Even after 9/11, a day when 3,000 Americans got up for work, ate breakfast, took their kids to school and then were brutally murdered, liberals thought this was a terrific time to ask “why do they hate us”?
If at the end of this war started by the islamic extremists, our side poured water on the enemies’ faces while they cut our fingers, hands, heads off, we can still hold our head high.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 2:52 pm 2:52 pm

Might does not make right.

Posted by: God | April 22, 2009, 2:52 pm 2:52 pm

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Posted by: Jesus | April 22, 2009, 2:54 pm 2:54 pm

He who sinneth not ,let him cast the first stone.

Posted by: Paul | April 22, 2009, 2:55 pm 2:55 pm

“You do know that the terrorists are laughing at people like you right now.”
They are? Actually, they laugh at those waterboarding them, I’m sure. But it’s not a good idea to make it policy, Dave. And surely, people who are innocent are being waterboarded, as well.
But I think it’s funny that you speak for the terrorists. Think like a terrorist, do ya, Dave? That’s not very patriotic.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:55 pm 2:55 pm

“If our Navy SEALs can endure it as part of their training, slimebags on a quest for an X-rated afterlife can too.”
I have a hard time believing that the SEALs get it like the terror suspects do.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 2:57 pm 2:57 pm

BRAIN?
Your use of caps has changed my mind! I now believe in the healing power of BO!
Change!Change!Change!
Is that all one needs to state to be a mindless obamabot?

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 2:57 pm 2:57 pm

Silky,
Watch fitna (just type it in google). It was made by geert wilder, I think he’s dutch. The terrorists speak for themselves. I just actually believe what they say, whereas liberals laugh it off like they are in frontrow at the council of evian.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 3:00 pm 3:00 pm

For his first EARTH DAY in office, President Obama has invited the Big Three automakers to display an eco-friendly fleet of cars on the White House south lawn.
In the morning, the president heads to Newton, Iowa with Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack, the state’s former governor, to push his energy and climate-change plan. The pair will tour a wind turbine manufacturing plant, where Mr. Obama will speak midday.
Thank you President Obama for focusing on the nations future.

Posted by: gus amaral | April 22, 2009, 3:02 pm 3:02 pm

“Even after 9/11, a day when 3,000 Americans got up for work, ate breakfast, took their kids to school and then were brutally murdered, liberals thought this was a terrific time to ask “why do they hate us”?”
Hey Dave…Where were you on 9/11? Do you have people gone from your life because of 9/11? Did you watch both towers fall down from less than two miles away. Do you know what that sounds like, Dave? Do you know what it’s like to wait, not knowing if your roomate who worked on the 72nd floor of the north tower survived, while you’re wiping the soot from the towers off of your appliances and kitchen counters? All you do is pollute the world, Dave, and believe me when I tell you that those around you do not take you even a little seriously.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 3:03 pm 3:03 pm

“our side poured water on the enemies’ faces while they cut our fingers, hands, heads off, we can still hold our head high.”
___________
If heads are cut off, how are they held high?

Posted by: gus amaral | April 22, 2009, 3:06 pm 3:06 pm

Dave , that I ,or anyone else for that matter might attempt to change your mind (using facts alone ) would imply 2 preexisting conditions ;
1) You being an objective informed impartial (more-or-less) adult capable of forming a cogent and unbiased opinion from the facts at hand.
2)You having a functioning (at some level above moron ) brain .
Sadly ,you fail on both. Keep your opinions ,love them ,sleep with them.
We don’t care. We are in the Oval Office ,and we appreciate your non-support. History will show how the Republicans tried to drive America into ruination but the Democrats saved the day !!
Thanks Republicans for this opportunity ,we libs sure won’t let it go to waste!!
(Going to be some real live Republican head hunting soon ,go Nancy/Harry/et al! And don’t forget the upcoming guaranteed left leaning Supreme Court nominee either Dave…)

Posted by: Brain | April 22, 2009, 3:10 pm 3:10 pm

In describing radical punishment activities, Dave – you’ve got a natural
talent.
One might even begin to wonder if you have more in common with your nemesis than not.

Posted by: gus amaral | April 22, 2009, 3:11 pm 3:11 pm

Wow, Brain…you failed your own test:
“1) You being an objective informed impartial (more-or-less) adult capable of forming a cogent and unbiased opinion from the facts at hand.”
“We don’t care. We are in the Oval Office ,and we appreciate your non-support. History will show how the Republicans tried to drive America into ruination but the Democrats saved the day !!”
You are obviously neither informed, impartial, or objective. I hate to break it to you, but 2/3 of the population did not vote for Obama; they either supported McCain or independents or they didn’t vote at all. A small majority of voters voted for Obama; it was hardly the majority of the country. God help us if our leaders think like you.

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 3:17 pm 3:17 pm

The terrorists speak for themselves. I just actually believe what they say, whereas liberals laugh it off like they are in frontrow at the council of evian.
Posted by: Dave | Apr 22, 2009 3:00:54 PM
____________
yes, Dave. you do seem to ‘get off’ on the terrorist lingo.

Posted by: gus amaral | April 22, 2009, 3:19 pm 3:19 pm

Brain
History and the democrats haven’t always gotten along so well. Wasn’t it the democratic party that was founded to ensure the survival of slavery, whereas the republicans were founded to end it?
Wasn’t it the democrats who went to war in an effort to keep slavery alive?
Wasn’t it the democrats who nominated george wallace for president, the segregationist bigot.And senator byrd (he’s still around today) who is a former klansmen? Gotta love those democrats!
The truth is, MLK was a republican and blacks only began to vote democrat when they were bribed with welfare checks and entitlements, and we know how well voting democrat has worked out for them.
Ever since the bribery took hold (early 60′s), the democrats have been able to keep black people in chains via welfare checks and entitlements just as they did prior to the Civil War.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 3:20 pm 3:20 pm

gus amaral
You get weirder everyday. The terrorists want to kill us and you liberals want to give them hugs.
The same band of like-minded idiots tried to hug the North Vietnamese and 2 million people were MURDERED as a result of it in the killing fields.
Just as the same band of idiots laughed off hitler’s constant calls for the death of all Jews, their comrades today want to have tea and crumpets with ahkmadenijead, the next nut calling for the deaths of all jews.
Remember, it’s just like BO said “iran is a tiny country and not a serious threat”. yeah right

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 3:28 pm 3:28 pm

“The truth is, MLK was a republican”
That is a lie and I’ve told you that on more than one occassion. All we know about MLK, Jr.’s political affiliation is that he voted for JFK. JFK was a democrate, Dave. The King Center in Atlanta strongly denies that there is any evidence indicating he was a registered Republican. If you’re going to continue with this lie, at least ATTEMPT to validate it. Jesus, you truly are pollution.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 3:29 pm 3:29 pm

“You get weirder everyday. The terrorists want to kill us and you liberals want to give them hugs.”
Where has anybody suggested hugging them? Your brain is broken, Dave. Seek help. Or I fear you’re going to hurt somebody and/or hurt yourself. I’m not kidding. Get some help.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 3:31 pm 3:31 pm

“Remember, it’s just like BO said “iran is a tiny country and not a serious threat”. yeah right”
When did he say Iran is not a serious threat? Please cite a source.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 3:34 pm 3:34 pm

In black and white terms, how did the US become the most powerful country in the world? Scientists fleeing Nazi German and other totalitarian regimes flocked to our shores. Our military strength was developed by many of the people who came here to escape the very mindset you embrace: that torture by the state need not be justified. People who think our reputation as a country of laws is expendable don’t understand the real basis of our strength. (Hint: when was the last time an Ammerican scientist defected to Iran?)
————————————
Amy in Maine ,
God I hope you do better in real life at making a point than you do here.
First off, after the war, we were already the world’s most powerful nation. The addition of Van Braum and others did indeed help us, but he encountered a lot of failures and the government was ready to give up on him until Sputnik in 1957! It was the Soviets and their use/advancement of German rocket technology that put the them ahead in the space race and weapons race as we moved through the late 50′s into the 60′s. Yuo need to go back and get a real history book!
If you want to follow your path further, you seem to forget the FDR interned American citizens during that time. US Citizens had their very basic rights revoked! Plenty of stories about how Japanese families had their lives turned upside down because of the perceived “threat”. Years of being locked up with no legal recourse or way out of.
=======
By the end of the war in 1945, 125,000 people, half of them children, had spent time in what even Roosevelt admitted were concentration camps.
Japanese Americans are evacuated from California
For the Japanese Americans who were forced into internment, the relocation process was a nightmare of dislocation and uncertainty. Once an exclusion order was issued, Japanese Americans were given one week in which to register with the authorities, gather whatever possessions they could carry, and report to an assembly center nearby. The evacuees were required to liquidate their assets in few days, and so homeowners were required to sell their houses, and business owners their farms, stores, and restaurants, hurriedly and at steep discounts, often for pennies on the dollar. The assembly centers were usually converted racetracks and fairgrounds, where thousands of people slept in stables, livestock stalls, or the open air while they waited to be transported to their assigned internment camps.
====
Many of today’s legal experts would say they were tortured by their confinement.
You never mention this, yet todays liberals are ready to crucify the prev. administrations handling of a few terrorist/detainees Strange how you, Silky and others don’t want to bring up those “sins of the past”.
Liberals always seem to forget that one when they are slamming Bush nad claiming how he is the worst leader in the history of the planet.

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 3:35 pm 3:35 pm

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | Apr 22, 2009 3:17:03 PM
———————————
Hmmm looks like another Republican and their Republican (facts/statistics). Actually , it looks more like someone afraid to call themselves a Republican (and be immediately branded an out-and-out liar) ,thus now they are “moderates” i.e. Republican liars who walk/talk/vote lock-step Republican but say they don’t/aren’t…get my drift?
With Republican dissatisfaction at the highest point in history it’s a safe bet that lots more “moderates” (i.e. Conniving Republicans who can’t get elected as a Republican) will start to pop up/appear as if by magic!! Pathetically sad ,but true .
Honestly you ( and your deluded Republican opinions based on such Republican “facts”) are a joke ; just relax and go watch Fox Propaganda Network or American Idol while we adults govern you and the rest of the idiot juvenile Republicans (or whatever you want to call yourselves ) in a thoughtful and intelligent fashion.

Posted by: Brain | April 22, 2009, 3:35 pm 3:35 pm

“You never mention this, yet todays liberals are ready to crucify the prev. administrations handling of a few terrorist/detainees Strange how you, Silky and others don’t want to bring up those “sins of the past”.”
I haven’t said anything other than it should not be the U.S. “policy” to torture, that waterboarding constitutes torture, and that I have experienced suffocation on multiple occassions, once losing consciousness.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 3:42 pm 3:42 pm

“gus amaral
You get weirder everyday. The terrorists want to kill us and you liberals want to give them hugs.
The same band of like-minded idiots tried to hug the North Vietnamese and 2 million people were MURDERED as a result of it in the killing fields.”
___________
Dave, your conclusions are perverse.
you are connecting unrelated events and ideas. Trying to tie my name or anyone elses to historical atrocities sounds like a desperate attempt at trying to be righteous and right in argument. Dave, it comes off as being
very confused, confounded and angry.
Talk to someone you trust [clergy, or other] about your anger and ideas.

Posted by: gus amaral | April 22, 2009, 3:45 pm 3:45 pm

Silky
Barry said that incredibly naive
statement during the democratic primary.
And MLK was a republican. During that time the democrats were all running around with sheets on their heads, which really wasn’t that appealing to the average black person.
A black democrat back then would make as much sense as a Jew endorsing ahkmandenijacket would today.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 3:45 pm 3:45 pm

You know , I voted for Obama (or at least I say I did) but I must say he is way too liberal for me and my patriotic American ne plus ultra opinion.
I am a moderate . But listen… The Democrats are to blame just as much as the Republicans for the current mess. I want to spread the blame ,because…
(…because I am really a life long Republican who wants to get the goody two shoes Democrats out of office by any means ,and passing the buck ,obfuscating and lying has worked like a charm for the Republican party for the last 45 yrs…why change a good thing? I am a moderate. )
HAW!!! WATCH OUT FOR “MODERATES” LOL!!

Posted by: Moderate | April 22, 2009, 3:46 pm 3:46 pm

Wow, Brain, did I hit a sore spot? All I did was apply the criteria you set forth to yourself. I’ve always been a registered independent and I admit I voted for McCain, but I didn’t vote for Bush, Gore, or Kerry. The McCain vote was to check Pelosi and co. The stats I got re voting I pulled for Wikipedia…not the most accurate, but it works in a pinch and is probably fairly close.
You’re obviously a partisan who can’t see anything past the end of your nose.

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 3:47 pm 3:47 pm

One pundit put it beautifully….
The Democrat Party is as it always has been, the party of the four S’s: slavery, secession, segregation and now socialism.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 3:47 pm 3:47 pm

Moderate Republican = purple/orange zebra
Never seen one ,personally.

Posted by: Bill | April 22, 2009, 3:50 pm 3:50 pm

“Barry said that incredibly naive
statement during the democratic primary.”
I asked you to cite a source. You can’t just go around assigning quotes to people when you’re talking to adults, Dave. You’re not in the asylum here. There are people whose elevators actually go to the top around.
“And MLK was a republican.”
According to the King Center in Atlanta, MLK, Jr. there is no proof to the right-wing disinformation-rooted assertion that MLK, Jr. was a Republican. That was debunked long ago. He voted for JFK. Forgive me if I and the rest of the rational world defer to them, rather than you. You can feel free to prove me and the King Center wrong. But I know you won’t because you’re both incapable of validating ANYTHING and incapable of reason.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 3:50 pm 3:50 pm

“Liberals always seem to forget that one when they are slamming Bush nad..”
________
I have never heard of anyone slamming Bush’s nads.

Posted by: gus amaral | April 22, 2009, 3:52 pm 3:52 pm

They do indicated that MLK, Sr. was a registered Republican. If you’re going to continue to FLAT-OUT LIE about something so significant, at least conjure up a bogus source, Dave. You can’t even do that.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 3:53 pm 3:53 pm

Middleoftheroad = anti-democrat ,pure and simple
Now tell the truth…ever voted FOR a Democrat for president? In the last 20 years I mean…

Posted by: Brain | April 22, 2009, 3:54 pm 3:54 pm

The saddest thing about this discussion is that I predicted this right after 9/11. If we did not get an overwhelming victory and bring everyone to justice, within a few short years, the Liberals would be out doing exactly what they are doing now.
Well, I actually pray that I am wrong, but if Obama makes us more vunerable to attacks, it will be interesting to hear the reaction of those who today OWE their safety to the Bush administration and the actions they took. As I said, after 9/11 EVERYONE was onboard to do whatever it took. As I am sure the rhetoric following another attack will be. Let us all at least agree upon the idea that this will forever be a discussion here only and not something we have to deal with for real !

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 3:56 pm 3:56 pm

“The saddest thing about this discussion is that I predicted this right after 9/11. If we did not get an overwhelming victory and bring everyone to justice, within a few short years, the Liberals would be out doing exactly what they are doing now.”
What’s that? Going after OBL?
I love how we “owe our safety” to Bush, when he ignored memos telling him we were about to be attacked 8 months (well) into his watch. If that’s safety, then…wow…thanks, President Bush.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 4:00 pm 4:00 pm

Dave,
I’ll be waiting for links to a quote Obama made saying that Iran was little and not a serious threat and also that MLK, Jr. was a registered Republican. In spite of the fact that it is not disputed that he voted for JFK and LBJ, and publicly condemed Barry Goldwater in the 1964 election.

Posted by: Silky | April 22, 2009, 4:02 pm 4:02 pm

Posted by: gus amaral | April 22, 2009, 4:10 pm 4:10 pm

Here are the facts.
Of the registered Americans that DID vote , the Democratic Presidential Nominee won ,by a substantial margin.
Those Americans who did not choose to vote do not count in a census of participating voters; they had their chance to voice their opinions and they chose not to ,for whatever reason.
Of the voters who DID vote ,it is clear that Republicans and their past agenda en total were rejected and repudiated , to what degree is arguable but of that fact no argument exists.
Your Wikipedia researched Republican-biased conclusions you are apparently referring to as viable statistics are laughable ,to say the least. Keep believing that you and your imaginatively contrived “statistics” are objective and true,if it makes you happier ,but don’t try to convince anyone else of that assertion ,at least not with the “facts/statistics” you have to work with.
(and do keep watching Fox Propaganda Network , all true moderates know that anything else is liberal kool-aid/brainwashing media !)

Posted by: Brain | April 22, 2009, 4:10 pm 4:10 pm

Has anyone in these posts been “Talking Trash”

Posted by: IDIDNTGETIT | April 22, 2009, 4:19 pm 4:19 pm

Republican “facts” are exactly why Factcheck came into existence.
Republicans were lying so much/so much of the time that no one could keep up with all the b/s they were spewing.
HEY ,LETS FABRICATE SOME MORE LIES AND START A WAR ,HOW ABOUT IT? WE CAN LIE AND CONNIVE OUR WAY TO TRILLIONS WHILE WE FEAR MONGER THE PUBLIC…THEY’LL BE SO BUSY COWERING THEY WON’T NOTICE A THING !!
Oh well ,at least some good came of it…
Enter factcheck…exit Republican Party
LMAO!!!
Good thing that factcheck , it really shut Republicans lying mouths up ,finally !!

Posted by: haha | April 22, 2009, 4:19 pm 4:19 pm

Silky,
since you seem to spend all your time here demanding others provide REAL PROOF. Why don’t you provide some of once. what memo’s and let me guess….none of them ever surfaced during Clinton’s years.
You do not have to like it Silky, BUT the ABSOLUTE FACT is no other attacks on us soil since 9/11. I know we dont have Obama or Clinton, or Barney Frank to thank for it.
Your bias is leaking out my friend. It is truly amazing that liberals hate Bush and the republicans this much. But then again, your Liberals….
Maybe…just maybe you should get Obama to focus on filling Treasury positons.

Posted by: Mike_C | April 22, 2009, 4:26 pm 4:26 pm

I say let them go for it, Then we will all see what happens to Obama in 4 years…Obama has done nothing but trash this country from day one .

Posted by: Pcc | April 22, 2009, 4:26 pm 4:26 pm

Silky
Barry said that “iran is a tiny country and not a serious threat” on May 19,2008 at a stop in OR. As I have said before, barry is the new neville chamberlain.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 4:32 pm 4:32 pm

Silky, google the comment. It was said, but he was comparing the threat of Iran to the Soviet Union of the Cold War era. It’s spin.
Brain, brain, brain…
First off, I’m 26. I voted for McCain to counter Pelosi – you know, checks and balances. I voted independent the other two elections, not Bush, Gore, or Kerry. So no, I’ve never voted for a democrat for President. Local elections? That’s different entirely – there’s moderates running at the local level.
Second of all, I didn’t claim my statistics from Wikipedia were great, they were quick and easy and probably fairly accurate.
Regardless of what you want to say, per CNN, 53% voted for Obama and 46% voted for McCain; that isn’t including votes cast for the Bob Barrs and other 3rd party candidates. With that in mind, it’s probably closer to a 50/50 split for Obama policies. You can’t just discredit half of the voters opinions, especially when you run on a platform of bipartisianship that is ignored.
You have no facts or statistics supporting your argument, only the “We won, tough luck” attitude of the prior administration that you apparently abhor (“I’m the president. Whether you voted for me or not, I’m your president”).
You even failed your own test. You’re a hypocrite. You seem to have a vile hatred towards anyone that doesn’t share your views or disagrees with you. I guess you’re right…I watch Fox News, Fox Business, CNBC, BBC, PBS…I avoid CNN and MSNBC because they’re absurdly left. At least Fox admits their opinion leans to the right. Yup, I’m the one in this conversation who’s a lemming…

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 4:32 pm 4:32 pm

Silky
Believe me, the democrats of MLK’s time were all running around wearing sheets and burning crosses. I don’t think they attracted too many black votes.

Posted by: Dave | April 22, 2009, 4:35 pm 4:35 pm

haha-have you received your welfare check this month? Just keep waitin for obama to send you those new shoes you been waitin for!yeehaa! you got a sugar daddy in the white house now!

Posted by: not laughing | April 22, 2009, 4:38 pm 4:38 pm

Next time you see someone posting as a “moderate” ask them :
1) What do you like about Mr.Obama ,name 3 things.
2) Have you ever voted for a Democrat for president ,since Carter?
My guess is there are not many real “moderates” out there ; in truth most “moderates” are Republicans who are overtly disgruntled with their party and its agenda ,or lack thereof…but who would also NEVER EVER vote for a Democratic President ,and who just cannot find even one good thing to say about this fabulous president (much less three compliments) , who is truly making the Republican Party (and it’s faithful as a happy consequence ) look even worse/more insignificant/more redundant than they already had become.
There are a few true moderates out there with constructive criticism to add ,I welcome it . I also welcome true moderates to acclaim Mr Obama ,and give him credit due ,where it is deserved ,for he surely deserves respect and honor for what he has done so far and what he has changed and promises to continue to change (for the better in my fairly biased-against-Republicans opinion..Sorry ,just too many Nixon/Reagan/Bush bad memories to forget so quickly , Republicans will be lower than pond scum as far as I am concerned for quite some time to come )
Kudos Mr Obama and crew, keep it up !!
Republican hair-pulling means you are on the right course!!

Posted by: Moderate = Republican Liar | April 22, 2009, 4:43 pm 4:43 pm

Moderate = anti-democrat
Watch as all the Republicans morph into Moderates because Republicans have trashed their party’s reputation and credentials to the point of being a joke/farce .
No one with a functioning brain will vote Republican these days ,but cleverly disguised as Moderates the Republicans are attempting their conniving subterfuge once again ,planning ahead like the crafty ruse playing liars they in fact ,are.
Pond Scum > Republican

Posted by: Brain | April 22, 2009, 4:53 pm 4:53 pm

Obama received 365 electoral votes, and McCain 173.
————————————–
That is the way elections are tallied in the USA ,not popular vote.
GWB would have lost outright to Gore by popular vote. What do you say about that?
Republicans lost…big time…shut up!!!

Posted by: Jamie | April 22, 2009, 4:59 pm 4:59 pm

Moderate = Republican Liar,
Three compliments?
1. He is well spoken and eloquent
2. He actually wears suits that fit..first person to do so since JFK
3. I liked the soft jab at European attitudes towards Americans. That was well-played…
4. The push for alt energy is good and will be the next big stock boom…although I don’t think cap and trade is the way to do this in a volatile economic market…
5. He understands that the FDIC can’t cover the banks if they fail, hence the propping up of them and AIG (since AIG insures the banks…)
6. He has potential to be a great president; it’s whether or not he does what’s right for the American people as opposed to his sponsors.
7. His overall foreign policy I don’t mind, but I do find it worrisome; I didn’t care for the “bow” or the chumminess with Chavez, but at the same time, that could definately work to our advantage – I’ve been nice to people that I don’t like/agree with to position myself favorably.
There’s more things I don’t like, all policy related; the PC crap is annoying and the lack of true disclosure is worrisome. I also don’t like the fact that he did the same thing as Bush leading up to the Iraq war…push push push this through congress, don’t read it, it’s an emergency, blah blah blah. Same crap, and then the AIG bonuses happen. He’s very calculated in certain areas, but others seem very shoot from the hip and politically motivated.

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 5:06 pm 5:06 pm

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 5:12 pm 5:12 pm

To me the Republican’s or the Democrat’s hold any morals or values…Values are the rules by which we make decisions about right and wrong, should and shouldn’t, good and bad. They also tell us which are more or less important, which is useful when we have to trade off meeting one value over another……beliefs of a person or social group in which they have an emotional investment (either for or against something); “he has very conservatives values”
Morals have a greater social element to values and tend to have a very broad acceptance. Morals are far more about good and bad than other values. We thus judge others more strongly on morals than values. A person can be described as immoral, yet there is no word for them not following values….Motivation based on ideas of right and wrong
You can have professional ethics, but you seldom hear about professional morals. Ethics tend to be codified into a formal system or set of rules which are explicitly adopted by a group of people. Thus you have medical ethics. Ethics are thus internally defined and adopted, whilst morals tend to be externally imposed on other people…..A theory or a system of moral values: “An ethic of service is at war with a craving for gain”
The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a profession.

Posted by: Pcc | April 22, 2009, 5:22 pm 5:22 pm

You may be more of a moderate than most who claim to be such. You still seem fairly right leaning though ,that’s ok , just wanted to mention that.
All any voter is responsible for is being informed and willing to CHANGE their opinions ,no matter how firmly held or for how long ,in light of well documented and largely accepted facts.
Stem cell research and Global Warming were two distinct areas that the Republicans have been obstructionists/fact deniers to the detriment of all. Mr Obama is changing all that ,and much more.
I disagree with many of his policies , immigration foremost among them. However ,picking between any 2 politicians is a bad vs worse scenario…With that in mind I am resolutely sure this man was the best choice for this current presidential term by far ,for most of Americans anyway.
Come up with a better candidate than Mr Obama ,Republican or Democrat or whoever ,I will support who/what is best for the Union and the majority of it’s citizenry ,at least to the best of my ability using reasoning ,logic and facts as weapons , not hyperbole ,rhetoric and doublespeak that is common for most Republicans (and too many Democrats as well).
Trying to present blatant partisan hacks like McCain ,Palin
Jindal ,Romney, Sanford ,etc etc ,as the “Republican Party Nominee Who Will Bring Non-Partisanship /Good Honest Governance To The Oval Office , will never ever get my, or probably not any other intelligent person’s vote. Likewise there are some (I would say predominantly fewer) Democrats who I would never endorse for president ,or even dogcatcher (wouldn’t be prudent…)
Still , I will take a Democrat over a Republican most every time ,most every issue ,using what accepted facts are at hand to base that decision on.
Well documented and widely accepted facts ,held up by mountains of legitimate statistics unwaveringly prove that over the last 45 years Republicans have connived ,bungled and otherwise misled this once proudest of nations into a twin quagmires of 1( a terrible fiasco of tangled crumbling financial institutions and 2) global mistrust of our elected politicians ability to adhere to/police our own constitution effectively.
Obviously ,they do not deserve to lead. Now Mr Obama is at the wheel ,give him a chance or not. Either way , it proves who you REALLY are.

Posted by: Moderate( if it suits me) | April 22, 2009, 5:43 pm 5:43 pm

Jamie, I’m not debating who won the election; I’m talking about the actual numbers of voters who supported a given candidate. Nearly 50% of Americans who voted voted AGAINST Obama, which means Democrats can’t totally ignore Republicans or those who didn’t vote for him. You can’t discount half the Americans because of the way our election system is set up, that’s ignorant and oppressive.
Posted by: Middleoftheroad | Apr 22, 2009 5:12:43 Pm
———————————-
Well thats exactly how about 51% of us have felt over the past 8 years since GWB beat Gore using the electoral tally system ,but lost the popular vote.
Republicans should have never been in the Oval Office in the first place using your highly questionable (sarcasm) reasoning.
Would you just shut up ? It’s obvious you are a blatant hypocrite Republican lover down deep…

Posted by: Franklin W | April 22, 2009, 5:51 pm 5:51 pm

Moderate, just a note:
“Stem cell research and Global Warming were two distinct areas that the Republicans have been obstructionists/fact deniers to the detriment of all. Mr Obama is changing all that ,and much more.”
From what I understand (I’m all for stem cell research…), Republicans are against using fetuses for stem cell research. In regards to global warming, the Earth has a cyclical nature of warming and cooling. While humans may help it along, it’s more of a natural element as opposed to man made. Lately, I haven’t heard any republican opposed to alternative energy…I’m not sure I ever have, actually. Global warming is a non issue to me as long as the private sector and government are pushing towards cleaner energy.
Franklin, my my…
“Well thats exactly how about 51% of us have felt over the past 8 years since GWB beat Gore using the electoral tally system ,but lost the popular vote.”
Can you quote me where the Republican house leader said that Democrat opinions did not matter? I can find a quote where Nancy Pelosi said that Republicans views were rejected in the last election and that they don’t matter, even though there were 50% of voters who voted republican and republican representation in congress. I’m not talking solely about the presidency, I’m talking about disenfranchising the congressional districts that are represented by republicans in congress who are being shut out by Democrat congressional leaders and the white house. Republicans were rejected and lost a great many seats in congress and the white house, but that doesn’t mean their values are gone and don’t matter to this country.
“Republicans should have never been in the Oval Office in the first place using your highly questionable (sarcasm) reasoning.”
I’m not debating the electoral college vote. All I’m showing is that half the voters voted republican. This has nothing to do with who won the election, it has to do with representation in the government.
“Would you just shut up ? It’s obvious you are a blatant hypocrite Republican lover down deep…”
And it’s obvious you’re an uneducated troll who can’t read and likely contributes next to nothing of value to society.

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 6:03 pm 6:03 pm

Moderate, I apparently just skimmed this and didn’t read it closely:
“Well documented and widely accepted facts ,held up by mountains of legitimate statistics unwaveringly prove that over the last 45 years Republicans have connived ,bungled and otherwise misled this once proudest of nations into a twin quagmires of 1( a terrible fiasco of tangled crumbling financial institutions and 2) global mistrust of our elected politicians ability to adhere to/police our own constitution effectively.”
Yes, but in the last 45 years, Democrats have done just as many negative things, especially considering how many lifetime politicians are in congress at the moment. I’m not disagreeing, but to place the blame solely on Republicans is wrong, especially when a lot of the welfare initatives that are causing such budget shortfalls have been implemented (poorly) under democratic presidents or congresses.
“Obviously ,they do not deserve to lead. Now Mr Obama is at the wheel ,give him a chance or not. Either way , it proves who you REALLY are.”
I’m giving him a chance, and he does things I like, but there’s far more that I don’t like at the moment of what he’s doing. I hope he comes to his senses and realize that the massive spending will only exacerbate any problems, inherited or otherwise, with the current economy. I also hope he comes on a bit more forcefully with Europe and everyone else. I think he may have been getting them to trust him, and then he’ll go after them for more…I hope, anyway. Obama is a manipulator; I just hope he manipulates things for the benefit of the country and not those who got him elected. I hope he’s different than the politicians in his party. I doubt it, though.

Posted by: Middleoftheroad | April 22, 2009, 6:10 pm 6:10 pm

Republicans were rejected and lost a great many seats in congress and the white house, but that doesn’t mean their values are gone and don’t matter to this country.
—————————–
Sorry ,but yes it does and no ,they do not. Those values are EXACTLY what got rejected i.e. all that Moral Majority b/s and the rest of the blatant partisan elitist tripe that IS the Republican Party platform.
And you are no moderate ,because I am.
You are just an angry Republican who feels betrayed by your party that has now moved so far right no one but ultra partisan whackos ,racists and gun lovers can openly support them them.
I feel your pain ,but don’t be a drag.
Just vote Republican when you are alone in the booth ,and tell yourself and your friends that you are a moderate at heart.
Works for me…
(Btw ,Ron Paul is NOT a moderate…)

Posted by: Danger Mouse | April 22, 2009, 6:40 pm 6:40 pm

Yes, but in the last 45 years, Democrats have done just as many negative things,
————————————-
Sounds like my kids …”Yes ,but Dad..etc
How childish of you , passing the blame to the Democrats when they have been in the Oval Office (w/veto pen) for how many years out of the last 45? (snicker)
Do some research sonny ,learn history or you’ll be doomed to repeat the same stupid things that Reagan and Nixon predicated that led to where we are today (up sh!t creek)

Posted by: Billy jean | April 22, 2009, 6:58 pm 6:58 pm

especially when a lot of the welfare initatives that are causing such budget shortfalls have been implemented (poorly) under democratic presidents or congresses.
———————————
Umm Clinton had a budget SURPLUS ,that is until the whacko republicans got hold of the Oval Office ,The Senate and The House and forced (by raw uber vitriolic partisan majority) patently elitist laws that allowed that very surplus to be drained out to benefit the wealthiest in America ,and abroad as well.
Hint : Next time you try to publicly revise history to suit your right-wing opinion, please post it on some right wing troll infested blog like stormfront or something like that ; you’ll get much greater acceptance/belief there.

Posted by: Bob White | April 22, 2009, 7:11 pm 7:11 pm

mmonroeliveson | Apr 22, 2009 1:56:09 PM
Monroe, You said; … “There will be more and more tea parties as awareness of the direction your leader is taking us becomes more apparent.” …
_____________
Probably similar to the “Turnout” in Lexington, KY. Where it was reported (quote the recently elected Democratic Mayor) “of the 507 Precincts in the city, the nine (9) Republican leaning Precincts participated in the “T party!” (That’s what, about 01.8% of the voting population.)

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