Obama, Cheney and the Politics of Torture
EmailDick Cheney’s pushback on torture this week is well-calibrated: It’s an issue on which public sentiment is somewhat more equivocal than President Obama’s own view. While most people oppose torture, that view is short of monolithic – and opposition softens if it’s presumed actually to work, as the former vice president argues.
This has been the case for years: Ask people if they support or oppose the use of torture, a straight up or down question, and majorities oppose it. But ask it with gradations and opposition is lower. And attach a direct positive attribute – possibly saving lives, or even definitely saving them – and opposition goes lower still.
Whether that kind of positive result can be demonstrated of course is highly debated. What’s clear is that the argument does resonate with some people who otherwise oppose the practice – data that illustrate the aim of Cheney’s approach.
Much focus the past week has been on waterboarding. In the latest specific data, a CNN poll in November 2007, 69 percent called it torture; fewer but still most, 58 percent, said the U.S. government should not allow it. Forty percent said it should be allowed.
Quite similarly, in an ABC/Post poll we did this January, 58 percent favored Obama’s position prohibiting the use of torture under any circumstances – while 40 percent again said there are cases in which it should be considered. We saw a big gender gap – women ruled torture out by 2-1; men divided evenly – and very big partisan and ideological splits. At the extremes, 77 percent of liberal Democrats rejected torture, while 60 percent of conservative Republicans said it should be considered in some cases.
There also have been differences of opinion by type of coercion. In a poll we did back in 2004, Americans by 78-21 percent said holding a terrorism suspect’s head under water was unacceptable, but by 66-33 percent the public saw sleep deprivation as acceptable. (Of a dozen items we tested, three were seen by majorities as acceptable – sleep deprivation; hooding, 57 percent; and noise bombing, 54 percent.)
Also prominently on the political plate now is whether the Obama administration should investigate whether any laws were broken in the Bush administration’s treatment of terrorism suspects. When we asked in January, the public split by 50-47 percent, with the expected partisan divisions: Democrats 69-30 percent, Republicans, 27-69 percent. (Independents divided, 45-53 percent.)
A review of questions on torture underscores the workings of what survey researchers call positive-attribute bias – how attaching a good outcome produces a different result. Back in 2005 we found 64 percent calling torture “unacceptable” as part of the U.S. campaign against terrorism, and in January, as noted, we found 58 percent support for Obama’s position not to use it regardless of the circumstance. But also in January, a Fox News poll found less opposition – 48 percent – when it asked about torture “that might protect the United States from terrorist attacks.” And Pew in February 2008 had just 30 percent calling torture “never justified” (as opposed to often, sometimes or rarely) when done “in order to gain important information” – a steady number in its polling since 2004.
Indeed in a November 2005 Newsweek poll, 58 percent supported torture “if it might lead to the prevention of a major terrorist attack.” And Fox, in 2002, got support at 52 percent – perhaps lower than you might expect, given the emotive language it used: “If innocent lives could be saved.”
Given the range of responses, there are political considerations on both sides of the debate. In the eyes of some Obama may gain stature for taking a stand they see as principled and moral; others, though, could see it as a “too liberal” position, perhaps calling into question the president’s credentials to counter terrorism effectively or even to serve his commander-in-chief function.
In the dispute with Cheney, however, Obama does have some clear advantages: After all, when Cheney left office three months ago, only 30 percent of Americans approved of the way he’d handled his job the previous eight years. Obama’s rating in most recent polls has been more than twice as high.
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No question that it’s hurting Republicans to be so closely associated with Cheney in the torture fight. And besides their distaste for Darth, Americans also are firmly opposed to the techniques he and the GOP are defending.
Posted by: matt | April 23, 2009, 10:48 am 10:48 am
hardly, i think Americans are backing off obama and him going after the GOP. This is going to backfire on him in a big way. He cares more about terrorists than he does about Americans. Typical Obama hating America and prosecuting those who did everything they could to make sure American wasn’t hit again. Obama is a moron.
Posted by: chad | April 23, 2009, 10:55 am 10:55 am
IF “TORTURE” is going to be discussed, the first step is to define what torture is. I think we could all agree that what the Nazis did: Pulling fingernails out, gouging out eyes, etc. is real torture. When we’re talking “waterboarding”, a procedure used on many of America’s own Special Forces people as a training exercise, only the looniest of leftists aiming to damage our own anti-terrorist interrogation techniques in order to put America in danger, would claim that that is torture.
Posted by: Ron | April 23, 2009, 11:40 am 11:40 am
“hardly, i think Americans are backing off obama and him going after the GOP. This is going to backfire on him in a big way. He cares more about terrorists than he does about Americans.”
AN EXAMPLE OF MINDLESS UN-AMERICAN HATE
were were hit 9/11 on Bush watch ignoring information from previous administration. Obama released torture information under law and specifically does not want prosecutions. the attorney general Eric Holder(separate from the white house)is reviewing the law. unlike Gonzales who acted as personal attorney for Bush.
Posted by: chads dad | April 23, 2009, 11:54 am 11:54 am
IF “TORTURE” is going to be discussed, the first step is to define what torture is. I think we could all agree that what the Nazis did: Pulling fingernails out, gouging out eyes, etc. is real torture. When we’re talking “waterboarding”, a procedure used on many of America’s own Special Forces people as a training exercise, only the looniest of leftists aiming to damage our own anti-terrorist interrogation techniques in order to put America in danger, would claim that that is torture.
Posted by: Ron | April 23, 2009, 12:00 pm 12:00 pm
Ron,
First off your defense that waterboarding is not torture because we do it to train troops is patently false, namely because those training exercises (SERE as the military calls them) are exercises for troops TO WITHSTAND TORTURE. Because it is a torture technique that was used by enemy soldiers in Vietname and the Korean War to elicit *false* confessions from captured US troops in the past. The enemy then used false confessions as propaganda. Torture has been used since the middle ages for exactly this purpose of getting false confessions because tortured people have said anything to get things to stop even if it isn’t true, even if admitting to something results in their death. If interrogators don’t hear what they want to hear they keep going until they do, even if it has no basis in facts. This makes torture not any more reliable than other alternative and much more moral techniques, techniques that the FBI successfully used after the first WTC bombings in 1993 to get information. Defense of torture is depending upon its effectiveness, which many experts have questioned. At best case torture gives short term info gain, but long term alienates our allies, and gives propaganda to help terrorist organizations recruit new members to fight our troops and attack us. That is a long term strategic loss. Not to mention it is against the law of our constitution and the treaties we have signed.
Posted by: Ordermonger | April 23, 2009, 12:30 pm 12:30 pm
Ron, the difference between giving a US soldier a simulated training and the technique being used on an a subject to extract information is that there are “safe words” and the US soldier can stop the simulation at any time. the soldier knows he/she is being trained. thus this training does not lead to psychological trauma since the soldier knows it will happen once, knows that it is for training and is aware he or she has the power to stop it at any time during the training.
the purpose of the training is that this method is torture and soldiers may be exposed to it if captured.
the subject in waterboarding (whether at Guantanamo Bay or through extraordinary rendition) has no idea of when/if the torture will stop, or even if he/she will survive.
there is a substantial risk of laryngospasm during this practice, which is often fatal. the number of fatalities the US CIA has caused is unknown as it is state secret.
you may be interested to know waterboarding was used by the NAZIs, the Japanese in WWII, and the Khmer Rouge. all of these regimes used waterboarding as torture.
detainees are not being trained they are being tortured.
Posted by: Paul Wall | April 23, 2009, 12:35 pm 12:35 pm
Republicans are a disgrace. Anyone who supports them or are associated with them are just the same!!
Posted by: Al | April 23, 2009, 12:41 pm 12:41 pm
Al, i strongly disagree with you. i do not think republicans are a disgrace. i disagree with some republicans, sometimes strongly. but i believe that they have convictions and are sincere. disagreements are always going to happen. but i think republicans love their country as much as democrats do. the worst thing we can do is dehumanize those we disagree with. think of what blogs would be like if no one from the other party contributed. people with different views and visions challenge us to think—to strengthen our convictions or to question them.
Posted by: Paul Wall | April 23, 2009, 12:52 pm 12:52 pm
Al, I am pleased to see a person with an open mind on this posting. Your hatred for Bush has allowed your mind to go of half cocked. I am not stupid but rather a realist. I have said before that all of the American public will be screaming for harsh interrogation(called torture by some) when the next building is attacked, ship attacked or American citizens harmed. Always with you in the Democratic party.
Posted by: William | April 23, 2009, 12:57 pm 12:57 pm
Richard Cheney is a paranoid sociopath twho truly did not give a damn about a) the people of this country; b) our military; or c) the law. He only cared about his secret agenda and finally being able to force the notion of imperial presidency, something he tried with the Nixon White House and then with the Bush White House. Both attempts were stunning failures on an epic scale, the last being the most damaging to this country. I truly believe this man should be tried for his corruption and sent to prison.
Posted by: DaveM | April 23, 2009, 1:17 pm 1:17 pm
BREAKING NEWS:::: Democrats now scrambling for cover as documents released show ALL of them were briefed often and entirely on techinques used as early as 2002
Republicians want ALL briefing documents released as Democrats now Stonewall
Posted by: Breaking News | April 23, 2009, 1:19 pm 1:19 pm
Breaking News::::, great let’s see the documents. i’m not seeing the story on any of the main media outlets. where is your newsflash coming from. a reputable source i take it?
Posted by: Paul Wall | April 23, 2009, 1:34 pm 1:34 pm
Torture is wrong, and sick and America is a better that or at least we were until Bush got in office. Bush and Cheney are war criminals and should be prosecuted.
If you believe in torture, you do not believe in democracy. Torturing is wrong, and does damage to those societies whose authorities practice it. Eventually they use it on their own citizens.
Posted by: Wearebetterthanthat | April 23, 2009, 9:53 pm 9:53 pm
Either way the republicans are in a no win situation. They will ALWAYS be associated with Cheney, Bush, and torture.
There is no way this party will win any election for at least the next 8 years. More like 20.
Say goodnight GOP……..it’s over.
Posted by: Daniel | April 24, 2009, 7:51 am 7:51 am
As a liberal, I have trouble reconciling some of the principles of the Republican Party. Torture is fine but abortion is not. Free, unfettered capitalism (with no government involvement) is good but not for Somali pirates. Rugged individualism is prized but GOP congressmen should always vote “no” in a block. Tax cuts are the only way to prosperity, but most GOP presidents raised them. Total adherence to the constitution rules but in scary times it’s okay to override it. A super-strong military is essential but everyone should pack a gun for protection (from the military?) It’s confusing.
Posted by: Debbieqd | April 24, 2009, 12:12 pm 12:12 pm
The kook left-wing—yes, that includes the BIG O, is not concerned about torture. Their agenda is still George Bush and anything they can do to keep his name negatively mentioned frequently by a willing media keeps peoples eyes off the the disaster that is the Obama administration.
What is torture? Well, for some left extremist it’s going out to a job every day. There does need to be a definition and I don’t trust congress or the ACLU to do it.
Posted by: azcowboy | April 24, 2009, 12:29 pm 12:29 pm
There has been more of a ground swell against Obama and his policies than any other president has ever experienced in my knowledge in his first hundred days!! Why not share this with the public?
Posted by: Ron | April 24, 2009, 12:45 pm 12:45 pm
What we did is NOT torture,cutting a persons head off like poor Daniel Pearlman and so many others is torture.Being stuck on a top floor of a burning building and being forced to jump or burn alive as so many of our civilains at the WTC were, is torture. What Obama has done by releasing this info and even considering prosecution is a disgrace to his office, and places innocent American lives in grave danger.
Posted by: Danny77 | April 24, 2009, 1:28 pm 1:28 pm
Paul Wall,
One reputable source is the NY Times. All of you self proclaimed “Progressive Liberals” or as defined in several dictionary’s, Socialists, need to stop claiming to “love this country” when all you do is try to push us to the bottom of the pile.
We signed the Geneva Convention to regulate military behavior in conventional warfare. This is a far cry from conventional. In this war on terror, if I had it my way, there would never be any prisoners to interrogate. They would all be KIA. We don’t torture prisoners and then behead them on video to be shown on the cable news networks like our cowardly, civilian adversaries that hide in crowded neighborhoods to fire their missiles and launch their attacks.
I remember back in the 70′s when I was a democrat, then I grew up and faced reality. Take off the rose colored glasses, move out of D.C or San Francisco, and look around. There are some really bad people in the world and on 9/11 they didn’t really care if the victims of the terrorist attacks were Democrat or Republican, only that they were infadels! Every time the Democrats win an election, the first order of business is to neuter our intelligence agencies and our military and then they have the audacity to wonder why we get attacked. Wake up and smell the cordite!
Posted by: Robert Weathers | April 24, 2009, 1:52 pm 1:52 pm
I want to know who it is that ABC is polling, Congress? Hollywood? If you know that there is a terror plot on an American city, and that THIS guy has the information you need to stop it, do you:
1–Beg
2–Ask nicely
3–Bribe with candy
4–Call Obama, he’ll know what to do!
5–Waterboard
I understand that threatening with a caterpillar is sometimes effective!
Wake up, people!
Posted by: sludgediva | April 24, 2009, 2:24 pm 2:24 pm
Japanese military officials were brought to justice and convicted of war crimes for using water boarding against our solders. The Republican Party is entirely wrong. They don’t have a moral or a legal leg to stand on when it comes to the torture methods they used at Guantanamo and in Iraq. If America is willing to sink to the level of violating International law and are willing to ignore the ethics this country stands for then we lost the war on 911 and America becomes no better then the enemies we hate.
Posted by: V. Brame | April 24, 2009, 8:56 pm 8:56 pm
Hello, my fellow Americans. I agree that torture has always been used on prisoners during wartime to get information. Sometimes it doesn’t work because the person doesn’t know anything! What about this person??? IF someone had kidnapped my child and I knew this beyond a doubt, hell, yes, I’d torture him! But what if there was a reasonble doubt? I am old enough to remember when the police beat teens to make them admit to HORRIFIC crimes they did not commit. Trust me, if you were tortured you would tell them ANYTHING to make them stop! I would hope though that you would have the gonads to give the interrogators FALSE information as I believe 99.9%, if not 100%, of the tortured Iraqi’s gave. Torture accomplishes NOTHING!
Posted by: Maebelle | April 24, 2009, 11:14 pm 11:14 pm
Ask me if I care if a terrorist has psychological trauma from any thing we have to do to extract valuble information that might stop another attack on this contry!
Posted by: TERRY | April 24, 2009, 11:18 pm 11:18 pm
I have never been polled by abc.
Posted by: TERRY | April 24, 2009, 11:22 pm 11:22 pm
I want some of these nice harmless folks to move next door to these bleeding hearts and they can hug each other right before the bomb goes off. I don’t recall any of these folks crying when our soldiers were getting their heads chopped off over there.
Posted by: Bob LaBass | April 25, 2009, 12:41 am 12:41 am
Republicans and their supporters are a disgrace to the human race!
Posted by: Al | April 25, 2009, 11:12 am 11:12 am
DOUBLE STANDARD- Stuffing sand into a mans mouth is torture, but water is not?Then, by those standards the Catholic Church gets off scott free for sodomizing little children. Torture is torture! WE NEED A NEW SET OF STANDARDS!
Posted by: William | April 25, 2009, 3:03 pm 3:03 pm
As a former SF ‘Interrogator’, who knows
a bit about the use of these tactics, I
can tell you that the two comments on this subject that provide the best information are by Ordermonger and Paul Wall. Under most circumstances, the most reliable information gleaned from interrogation is through the use of ‘friendlier’ methods. And, the fact that they conducted 266 sessions on two subjects, bears that out.
Understandably, Chaney and associates will defend the use of torture, because
they could be subject to War Crimes trials, should the Justice Department decide to go after them.
BTW, I am a Republican, who also worked
on the ‘Hill’. I voted for Obama, who I believe, has accomplished more in his
first 3 months than any President since
FDR. The current GOP leadership hasn’t
got a clue and are draining the party.
They need to grow up, wise up and realize that the needs of the country have to come before their desires and
those of their friends and donors.
Posted by: gringovejo | April 26, 2009, 11:38 am 11:38 am
The USA prosecuted Japanese soldiers after WWII for waterboarding American soldiers. If we are to prosecute others for war crimes when we are doing it our selves that makes us hypocrites. I understand that when GW talked to the Russians about human rights, they said “you first”. We have always stood for human rights and took the high road. I am deeply ashamed to be an American.
Posted by: Sam | April 26, 2009, 6:37 pm 6:37 pm
Unfortunately governments everywhere can and have used torture to extract information. I do believe that under previous democratic administrations it was actually done to American citizens. How many of you remember when American citizens were being accused of being communists? How long will it be until Obama has us swinging the other way and going after republicans for being “right wing extremists”? The only difference in the case of Gitmo is it was done on such a large scale that everyone knew about it. But then, please do remember that when the twin towers where hit, that’s what MOST of Americans actually wanted. In this case, the officials you elected gave you what you wanted. Most of the people in Gitmo are guilty of far worse than waterboarding poeple–think about it.
Posted by: Robert | April 29, 2009, 9:57 pm 9:57 pm
What is fascinating to me is that behind *all* of the posts that argue for torture, there is the assumption of guilt of the individual being tortured and the *hope* they know something of value.
Now, to those who defend torture and who I assume are law-abiding honorable citizens of this country I ask they go through this exercise: assume you are being tortured and torture will not stop until you can produce the location of the remains of the person the torturer claims you murdered.
Good luck!
Posted by: Fred | May 7, 2009, 10:56 am 10:56 am
So Fred, I’m sure your conscious will be clear if by having to avoid torture (and in the grand scheme of things, sleep deprivation and waterboarding are pretty light forms at best)..we get to watch people having to jump from 60 story windows instead! I’m sure you will be there to help the firefighters clean up the mess.
Posted by: Bill | May 9, 2009, 3:17 pm 3:17 pm
This debate is political drivel and meaningless-No one authorized the murders of 16 POW’s and excessive waterboarding tactics at 1000 dollars an hour of taxpayer money! The interrogation teams that MURDERED not tortured POW’s need to be brought up on charges of manslaughter and the rest of this nonsense be put to bed!
Posted by: Dave of Detroit | May 11, 2009, 8:48 am 8:48 am