Health Care Reform “Game-Changer”?
In a move White House officials are calling a "game-changer," representatives of the major players in the health care industry — doctors, drug companies, health insurers, hospitals, business and labor — will come to the White House today to pledge to reduce health care costs by 1.5 percent annually over the next decade. The savings adds up to $2 trillion by 2019, the White House says.
The announcement "makes it clearer than ever that health care reform is going to happen in the Congress," a senior administration official said.
"We cannot continue down the same dangerous road we’ve been traveling for so many years, with costs that are out of control, because reform is not a luxury that can be postponed, but a necessity that cannot wait," President Obama will say today after the meeting, according to excerpts released by the White House.
"It is a recognition that the fictional television couple, Harry and Louise, who became the iconic faces of those who opposed health care reform in the ’90s, desperately need health care reform in 2009. And so does America. That is why these groups are voluntarily coming together to make an unprecedented commitment," the president is expected to say.
With the savings, the administration hopes millions of Americans who don’t have or cannot afford insurance will be able to get a plan.
White House officials often cite a study from The Dartmouth Institute for Health Policy and Clinical Practice which explored why the same health care coverage can cost up to three times more in one part of the country than in another, with no better result.
Read more on this HERE.
- jpt
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Obama can’t be serious to suggest that providers are even able reduce costs AND provide “quality care” care. Practitioners are already forced to limit patients to 12 minutes (which must include history taking, examination,diagnosis, treatment and comprehensive charting) in order to make ends meet. We are TOLD how much to charge unlike auto mechanics and many others in the various service industries who set their own prices. If it gets any worse there will be NO providers since we will all practice on a cash only basis. Look to where the real problem lies; in the insurance bureaucracy and the trial lawyers who ruthlessly pursue malpractice suits just to name two.
Posted by: gjdagis | May 11, 2009, 9:37 am 9:37 am
My only stipulation is that government workers at every level, from the President and Congress on down, be required to have the EXACT same health care as what they are imposing on the average American citizen.
Posted by: That'sAll | May 11, 2009, 9:41 am 9:41 am
Its BS. These guys all of a sudden can cut costs. They should have done this years ago but instead have been jerking us around. The government needs to establish a plan on its own and compete with these businesses. Once they have the chance to increase rates, they’ll change their minds and say its necessary. Fuzzy math if I recall correctly. I dont trust them now and honestly wouldnt trust them later. Dont take the bait! Even if health care is socialized, its better than what we have now. How can Canada have a better system that the US?
Posted by: janus | May 11, 2009, 9:45 am 9:45 am
My only stipulation is that government workers at every level, from the President and Congress on down, be required to have the EXACT same health care as what they are imposing on the average American citizen.
Posted by: That’sAll
======================================
government workers at every level, from the President and Congress on down, have “socialized health care”. Everybody, including the Republicans who oppose “socialized health care”
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 10:16 am 10:16 am
Janus, I completely agree.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 10:18 am 10:18 am
A “pledge” to cut 1.5%? What is the point of this exercise?
Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn | May 11, 2009, 10:19 am 10:19 am
Obama can’t be serious to suggest that providers are even able reduce costs AND provide “quality care” care.
Posted by: gjdagis
===========================================
Read the article again gjdagis. It’s not Obama or his administration who are telling this. It’s the industry itself.
“representatives of the major players in the health care industry — doctors, drug companies, health insurers, hospitals, business and labor — will come to the White House today to pledge to reduce health care costs by 1.5 percent annually over the next decade.”
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 10:22 am 10:22 am
It is only a gamechanger to the extent that Republicans get onboard and work productively to make it happen. If they continue their blind obstructionism, then it is just business as usual – the Obama administration methodically going down the list of campaign themes they were elected to implement.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 10:23 am 10:23 am
gjdagis:” If it gets any worse there will be NO providers since we will all practice on a cash only basis. Look to where the real problem lies; in the insurance bureaucracy and the trial lawyers who ruthlessly pursue malpractice suits just to name two.”
The insurance industry and the lawyers are all at the same table. This is not exclusively targeted at doctors, nor should it be.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 10:25 am 10:25 am
Smoke and mirrors. The illusion President Obama would like to create is not the reality. A cut of a few percent off of an undetermined increase, in recessionary times is not a cut, it is a head fake.
Posted by: smith | May 11, 2009, 10:27 am 10:27 am
That’sAll:”My only stipulation is that government workers at every level, from the President and Congress on down, be required to have the EXACT same health care as what they are imposing on the average American citizen.”
That was actually a major idea that was proposed by all of the Democratic candidates – that Congress’s healthcare plan be made available to every citizen. The Republicans in Congress have made clear they won’t allow it, and enough Blue Dog Democrats have joined them, that it is unlikely to happen.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 10:28 am 10:28 am
” If they continue their blind obstructionism…”
examples please.
Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn | May 11, 2009, 10:29 am 10:29 am
smith:” A cut of a few percent off of an undetermined increase, in recessionary times is not a cut, it is a head fake. ”
Read the article. The proposal (it is NOT at all done yet) is to REDUCE health care costs 1.5% annually. NOT reduce the rate of increase. Very different animal.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 10:30 am 10:30 am
Krugman had more today:
‘the health industry letter talks of “reducing over-use and under-use of health care by aligning quality and efficiency incentives.” It also picks up a related favorite Orszag theme, calling for “adherence to evidence-based best practices and therapies.” All in all, it’s just what the doctor, er, budget director ordered.
Before we start celebrating, however, we have to ask the obvious question. Is this gift a Trojan horse?
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 10:30 am 10:30 am
I don’t know about you, but I already have “managed care.” The only choice I have is between an HMO and no insurance.
For HMOs, care is managed to increase profits to shareholders. The shareholders want me to pay as much as they can get from me…. and deliver as little service as possible.
For socialized medicine, care is managed to work within the budget as set by the government. Voters want as much care as they can get for as little cost possible.
Socialized medicine, in this respect, seems to be the next logical step in improving access and quality if healthcare.
But, I suppose if I were ideological about it, I’d start buying canned food and build an underground bunker in my yard, and prepare for a Red Dawn-like scenario to unfold.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 10:31 am 10:31 am
“Read the article. The proposal (it is NOT at all done yet) is to REDUCE health care costs 1.5% annually. NOT reduce the rate of increase. Very different animal. ”
Read the article. It is a pledge.
Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn | May 11, 2009, 10:38 am 10:38 am
Chances are, if you have insurance, you already have managed care.
Some Wall Street types try to get you and your employer to pay as much as possible… and then provide as little care as possible. This is what makes their shares go up.
There would be little change in the quality of care that the already insured are getting. The only change would be in the cost, in how many people get covered, and in who the insurers are accountable to.
Instead of being accountable to investors, they’d be accountable to voters.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 10:38 am 10:38 am
Why are there no advocates for Single Payer or Universal Health Care included in your discussions of health care reform?
Could it be that the Finance Committee of the United States Senate is a Pay to Play system just like Rod Blagojevich’s Illinois?
Max Baucus, Chair: $2.7 MILLION dollars in one election cycle
Chuck Grassley, Ranking Republican: $1.8 MILLION dollars in one election cycle
Orrin Hatch: $1 MILLION dollars in one election cycle
Kent Conrad: $800,000 in one election cycle
Blanche Lincoln: $800,000 in one election cycle
Mike Enzi: $800,000 in one election cycle
John Ensign: $700,000 in one election cycle
Jim Bunning: $600,000 in one election cycle
Mike Crapo : $600,000 in one election cycle
Tom Carper: $500,000 in one election cycle
Olympia Snowe: $375,000 in one election cycle
That’s $10.7 MILLION dollars paid DIRECTLY to eleven members of the Senate Finance Committee by the for-profit health care industry in just the last election cycle alone.
No more Pay to Play in the U.S. Senate! Real Health Care Reform NOW!
Posted by: NO CHAGE NO HOPE | May 11, 2009, 10:39 am 10:39 am
I am so glad that we are finally talking about health care.
Regardless of what he proposes, there are going to be political interests complaining about it. The 2012 election is just around the corner, afterall.
But there is a chance that he can put something together that is going to be a lot better than what we have now. It would be hard to make it worse.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 10:44 am 10:44 am
Foghorn Leghorn:”" If they continue their blind obstructionism…”
examples please.”
The stimulus package is the best example. After making numerous concessions, including rededicating almost 10% of it to an Alternative Minimum Tax reduction (a perrenial Republican priority that only benefits upper middle class), not a single Republican house member voted for it. Why bother to compromise with them at all?
The appointment of Obama’s health secretary was held up over irrelevant matters until the swine flu panic shone a light of publicity on Republicans and forced them to let it go to a vote.
The national party isn’t even trying to hide its desperate hope that Norm Coleman will continue to delay and drag out the finalization of the MN senate elections. Keep an eye on if he refuses to accept the MN Supreme Court ruling and appeals again to the Federal Supreme Court – and note where his funding is coming for to support this delaying tactic.
Sixteen senators voted against releasing the second half of TARP funds to the Obama administration AFTER voting for it under the Bush administration.
They offered a publicity hit piece against the budget, rather than any constructive ideas (you know, with numbers) that could be incorporated to improve it.
Republicans voted en masse in the House (258-168 when it first came up) against the bill to delay the digital TV transition – a trivial matter the Senate passed unanimously.
And there is no real justification for the holds they placed to delay the confirmation of Austan Goolsbee and Cecilia Rouse to the White House Council of Economic Advisers other than to obstruct Obama’s efforts to staff up Treasury.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 10:45 am 10:45 am
Here’s Charlie Rangel’s plan for reforming the AMT:
“Rangel’s plan represents the Democrats’ first major tax salvo since they won control of Congress and comes after years of criticizing Bush’s tax cuts as giveaways to the rich. A House vote on it is possible as early as June.
“The measure, still in its early phases, would protect married couples making $250,000 or less each year from paying the alternative minimum tax, or AMT.
“Without action, 20 million mostly unsuspecting taxpayers — on top of 4 million paying it now — could end up paying AMT surcharges averaging about $2,000 next filing season.”
Twenty-four million taxpayers are the “upper middle class?”
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | May 11, 2009, 10:54 am 10:54 am
jhw539, thanks for explaining.
Righties always want you to document your sources. Not because it is too hard to find examples, but because there are too many. And the problems with the GOP the last few years are so obvious that I don’t even bother.
If I were to provide a partial list of references for the reasons why I switched from Republican to Democrat over the last 8 years…. It would crash the server.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 10:56 am 10:56 am
“The shareholders want me to pay as much as they can get from me…. and deliver as little service as possible.”
As opposed to, say, the United States Post Office. Or the National Health Service in the UK.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | May 11, 2009, 10:57 am 10:57 am
It would be very refreshing if some of you had the honesty and the courage simply to come out and say it: I want someone else to pay for my health care.
What’s so hard about that? Just say it, and perhaps you’ll feel better…
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | May 11, 2009, 10:59 am 10:59 am
Read the article. It is a pledge.
Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn
======================================
Jake Tapper reported only that it was a pledge.
But it is more. The healthcare industry has sent a letter to the Obama Administration with specifics.
“reducing over-use and under-use of health care by aligning quality and efficiency incentives.”
“adherence to evidence-based best practices and therapies.”
This is exactly what Obama and the Democrats have said all along on how to reduce costs.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 11:01 am 11:01 am
Obama inviting everyone to give their opinions is amusing. He lets the opposition talk even though his mind is long made up and he will accept none of the oppposition’s recommendations. Letting them talk makes them think he gives a darn about their ideas.
And of course he does not.
The only way to reduce costs is rationing. Obama hasn’t come close to estimating anything properly.
Posted by: drjohn | May 11, 2009, 11:06 am 11:06 am
Fascist, it is in everybody’s (including MY) best interest that YOU are healthy and don’t infect the rest of society with your diseases or burden your family members with your troubles (financially and emotionally). And if we all share the burden of keeping you out of the ER, we’re all better off.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 11:07 am 11:07 am
“adherence to evidence-based best practices and therapies.”
That means allowing your parents to die because it is not cost-effective. Most health care funds are expended in the last six months of life.
So figure on Mom and Dad dying 6 months or more sooner.
Posted by: drjohn | May 11, 2009, 11:08 am 11:08 am
Why are there no advocates for Single Payer or Universal Health Care included in your discussions of health care reform?
Why can’t we have the same health care as the Congress?
Posted by: WHY | May 11, 2009, 11:09 am 11:09 am
Leave Obama alone!!!
He is a great man that brings us hope. We voted for him and are happy to see such a beacon of hope shining in Washington compared to that evil prior administration.
This is the change we voted for. You people complaning lost. You are rejected. America has no place for you. You are also welcome to leave. (remember saying that yourself – swings both ways)
This is our time for hope as we elected a great man to run this country in the direction we want to see it go. Our time to have judges and laws swing our way. We won, you lost.
Obama, make us proud!!
Posted by: Sally | May 11, 2009, 11:10 am 11:10 am
“best interest that YOU are healthy and don’t infect the rest of society with your diseases”
Yeah, that’s why people still smoke cigarettes as does Obama.
It also would mean quarantine and isolation for AIDS cases, as that would absolutely halt new incidence of the disease.
It would mean eliminating the sale of alcohol. It could not possibly include legalization of marijuana and other drugs.
There’s lots of neat stuff you can do in this vein.
Posted by: drjohn | May 11, 2009, 11:11 am 11:11 am
jwh:
1. Never has this country spent so much so quickly as with the stimulus package and you want to argue it was obstructed by Republicans? Voting against a bill is not obstruction. We will return to that theme.
2. We now have a HHS secretary. What was that? About 3 weeks of obstruction?
3. When did it become the democrats position that having your day(s) in court was obstruction? Coleman won’t concede so he is obstructing. I’m sure you said the same thing about Gore in 2000.
4. Voting against the release of those funds did not obstruct.
5. A publicity hit piece is not obstruction.
6. Voting against delaying digital tv transition was indeed trivial and was not obstruction.
7. Austan Goolsbee and Cecilia Rouse? Apparently there is obstruction afoot here! Goolsbee can’t advise the president. Doesn’t stop him from being on television everyday speaking for the administration.
Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn | May 11, 2009, 11:12 am 11:12 am
It is fantastic if those groups are going to work to reduce costs.*
As far as I know, though, Obama is letting Pelosi and Reid write the actual legislation. So we’ll see what they end up with.
*just a brief reminder that people aren’t always happy when health care costs are reduced. Remember when John Edwards adopted the cause of the Glendale, CA girl in a coma for whom the insurance company denied an organ transplant?
Posted by: MayBee | May 11, 2009, 11:12 am 11:12 am
“Our time to have judges and laws swing our way.”
Sally, judges should observe and respect the law as it is written.
Your argument is that once Republicans regain control that they create laws to reverse all that is done now.
Laws swing your way now. That’s what the country is all about.
Posted by: drjohn | May 11, 2009, 11:16 am 11:16 am
drjohn:”The only way to reduce costs is rationing.”
I suppose in your world the profits extracted by insurance companies are sacrosanct and it costs less to treat bacterial pneumonia with a trip to the ER and a week in the ICU than with $10 of penicillin given three weeks earlier?
I don’t understand the harping about rationing – I understand that’s suppose to be a SCARY WORD, but we already have rationed health care. Rationing is typically done by the for-profit insurance companies and HMO’s.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 11:16 am 11:16 am
Posted by: MayBee | May 11, 2009 11:12:27 AM
Indeed.
Isn’t it funny how liberals who now are all about health care reform and containing costs are the same liberals who wanted health care for illegal aliens and coverage for bone marrow transplants?
They want all these brutally expensive things covered and then they whine about how much it costs.
Posted by: drjohn | May 11, 2009, 11:18 am 11:18 am
“It would be very refreshing if some of you had the honesty and the courage simply to come out and say it: I want someone else to pay for my health care.”
No…. that’s not the case.
My wife and I just had a baby. We used no medication, the baby never left our room. The nurses never took our baby to the nursery. We went home as soon as we could.
We got a 900$ for using the nursery (this is in addition to many thousands of dollars insurance paid for laying in a bed and cleaning up after… of which we have paid about 2000 in “coinsurance” costs).
We said, we never used the nursery. They said, well, we have to pay the nurses for caring for the baby when you were resting. The nurses never gave the baby a bath, dressed the baby, changed him. None of that.
So, we said, “Why are you billing our insurance company a thousand dollars for a service you did not provide?”
They said, “That’s just what it costs for a baby to be in the hospital.”
We called our insurance company and said, the hospital is billing you for a thousand dollar service which they never provided. The insurance company told us that we didn’t know what we were talking about.
And, so the hospital billed them for a service they did not provide, they paid the hospital, and then they passed the cost on to all of their patients on the plan.
If anything, I’m concerned about saving people money. I’m not trying to get anything for free. I just feel like the cost of health care is artificially high.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 11:19 am 11:19 am
To better understand the inside game (written by a sympathetic author), read the Orzag story in the May 4th New Yorker. Many of the same themes trumpeted today with much fanfare are mentioned. What you are seeing now is the Axelrod orchestrated full court press by his loyal minions.
Have you ever wondered why these guys always speak off the record? Answer: FEAR.
Posted by: jcarob | May 11, 2009, 11:19 am 11:19 am
Foghorn Leghorn: Your definition of obstruction is conveniently narrow. Funny that.
I put out my facts and you refuted none of them but simply brushed them off as not meeting your personal definition of obstructionism.
Now could you provide some factual examples of Republicans constructively working with the administration, like Democrats did in 2001 as Bush was putting through his Bush Tax Cuts and No Child Left Behind legislation – which Democrats did not really support, but worked constructively to improve.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 11:20 am 11:20 am
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009 11:16:55 AM
So you’re going to guarantee that those who are sick are going to go when they should?
How you gonna do that? How are you going to legislate behavior?
Are you going to send the health police to haul people to health care facilities?
Your idea is hardly new.
Many insurances cover fully preventive care without deductibles and people STILL DON’T GO!
They often don’t watch their weights now. They don’t eat well. They don’t exercise. They don’t floss their teeth.
What is health care reform going to do about THAT??? This is the usual nonsensical liberal claptrap.
Posted by: drjohn | May 11, 2009, 11:23 am 11:23 am
jwh:
“Read the article. The proposal (it is NOT at all done yet) is to REDUCE health care costs 1.5% annually. NOT reduce the rate of increase. Very different animal. ”
================================
from the Politico:
The coalition set a goal to slow the annual rate of growth on health care spending, which was 6.1 percent in 2007, by 1.5 percentage points, the administration officials said.
Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn | May 11, 2009, 11:24 am 11:24 am
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009 11:19:22 AM
Cut out the care to the indigent that is provided by hospitals now and eliminate care for illegals which is unreimbursed now and see how much less health care costs.
You are paying now for everyone else.
Your costs won’t be less. It will be more once government gets invovled.
Posted by: drjohn | May 11, 2009, 11:25 am 11:25 am
“Why are there no advocates for Single Payer or Universal Health Care included in your discussions of health care reform?”
Because we can all see the results in the UK and Canada.
“Why can’t we have the same health care as the Congress?”
Because the nation would go bankrupt even sooner.
Can’t we all agree with the basic premise that the Left wants someone else to pay for their health care? Why is it so hard for them to come out and say it?
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | May 11, 2009, 11:25 am 11:25 am
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009 11:23:13 AM
Evidence-based research shows that it is not cost effective to prolong the lives of many older people.
That’s why there is no kidney dialysis in Canada after age 65 and why you pretty much cannot get a new hip after age 57.
Hello?
Posted by: drjohn | May 11, 2009, 11:27 am 11:27 am
I know a girl who doesn’t have insurance. She is attending classes with abnormally low blood pressure, fainting spells, and coughing fits.
She lives in a rural community. But when summer starts, she’s going to try to get a ride to a free clinic.
In the meantime, I hope nobody else gets it.
But yeah, socialized medicine is evil.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 11:27 am 11:27 am
“So you’re going to guarantee that those who are sick are going to go when they should?”
No one can guarantee anything. It’s all about odds. It’s more likely that people will go before or when they get sick if they have insurance.
Posted by: Skip | May 11, 2009, 11:29 am 11:29 am
drjohn:”What is health care reform going to do about THAT??? This is the usual nonsensical liberal claptrap.”
Speaking of nonsensical claptrap, I assume you are vehemently arguing for the status quo then? You certainly offer no alternatives and seem to spend an awful lot of time tearing down the approaches that have been proven to work better in other first world countries.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 11:30 am 11:30 am
I say great because health care premiums have been getting higher every year with less benefits. Just getting the key players to recognize this and work together for a resolution is a major accomplishment. The last fix for health care from Bush/Rove and then by McCain was taxing the money people pay for health benefits! If your employer pays a share then that is taxable also. The taxpayers, your employer and insured people are already packing the load with higher premiums so let’s tax them. Then there is Bush vetoing Medicare negotiating directly with the pharmaceutical companies. We have a failing system (Social Security) funded by our tax dollars vs two huge private entities, pharmaceutical and insurance companies. Medicare negotiates price with doctors, hospitals and medical supplies but let’s not negotiate with pharmaceutical companies. Ron Paul one of the few repubs that voted for the tax payers! Conservative values taxing the money people pay for health insurance?
Posted by: rickyt1234 | May 11, 2009, 11:31 am 11:31 am
I just feel like the cost of health care is artificially high.
Posted by: blip
=========================================
It is.
One example is use of MRI and CT scanners. Healthcare providers who have their own MRI or CT scanner are 60% more likely to prescribe you with an MRI or CT scan than healthcare providers who don’t.
They’re not prescribing you with it because your medical situation calls for it. No, they do it because their own wallet calls for it.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 11:31 am 11:31 am
In my mind, it’s a mortal sin to deny medical care to people who would die without it.
You just CAN’T keep people from getting ER care if it is a life or death situation.
I don’t see how denying stitches to an illegal alien who got his hand severed in a machine is any different from denying dialysis to a senior citizen.
I am conservative in many ways… but I just cannot buy into the recent fad of considering illegals sub-human.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 11:32 am 11:32 am
Hey–it’s all free, right?
Posted by: Fascist Hyena
=====================================
That’s what the Republicans seemed to think the last 8 years. Remember Richard “deficits don’t matter” Cheney?
Democrats have never argued it’s free, only Republicans.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 11:35 am 11:35 am
“Why can’t we have the same health care as the Congress?”
———
Because the nation would go bankrupt even sooner.
———
The health insurance industry, possibly reading the writing on the wall, has already stated that they can afford to cover everybody as long as certain conditions are met.
Posted by: Skip | May 11, 2009, 11:35 am 11:35 am
“Foghorn Leghorn: Your definition of obstruction is conveniently narrow. Funny that. ”
Actually your phrase was “blind obstruction” but i digress.
A filibuster is obstruction. You cited zero.
A hold is obstruction. You may have rooted one out.
Why don’t you articulate your definition.
Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn | May 11, 2009, 11:37 am 11:37 am
I don’t see how denying stitches to an illegal alien who got his hand severed in a machine is any different from denying dialysis to a senior citizen.
============
Illegal aliens are certainly not less than human, and as far as I know they are not denied care.
The problem is that illegal aliens are tolerated/encouraged so much in society that they are here in such great numbers it affects health care costs.
I’d be interested to see how other countries with universal health care handle this. I know Japan and Hong Kong do not tolerate illegal aliens at all. In France, it is illegal to help an illegal alien. Countries realize their citizens can’t afford to support massive numbers of illegal aliens.
We can’t have lax immigration standards AND universal healthcare.
Posted by: MayBee | May 11, 2009, 11:38 am 11:38 am
I know it is, wilhelm.
I went in for a well visit once and had prehypertension…. The doctor tried to put me on medication.
I actually had to argue with him that I should go on a diet and start running.
He told me that I was taking a risk, but if I wanted to lose weight, I could try.
The sad thing is… I cannot even trust the doctor because I can never tell if he is trying to sell some pills… or if he is offering the best course of care. So, I could actually be risking my health by ignoring his advice. But my suspicion is that with prehypertension, 30 pounds overweight, and three small children in my household… exercising and eating better might be the best medical advice.
But I still had to pay the 10$ copayment for that visit.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 11:40 am 11:40 am
drjohn:”That’s why there is no kidney dialysis in Canada after age 65″
That “fact” is a lie. Citation please. At best you mistook “peritoneal dialysis” to mean all dialysis. At worst, your argument is so weak you are fabricating “facts” to slander the opposition.
In “End-stage renal disease: Factors affecting referral decisions by family physicians in Canada, the United States, and Britain.” Am J Kid Dis 2001; 38(1):42-48, it was found that American and Canadian physicians had similar referral rates to dialysis, with 65% of them referring patients regardless of age. For those who did consider age, 85 was the mean age for non-referral in the US and Canada while 82 was the mean age for non-referral in Britain.
This debate should be based on reality and the facts, not baseless fear mongering.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 11:40 am 11:40 am
That’s why there is no kidney dialysis in Canada after age 65 and why you pretty much cannot get a new hip after age 57.
Hello?
Posted by: drjohn
==========================================
Where DO people get those lies from! They just think they can make **** up and not get called on it?
Fact is, there are people in the US who thought they had health insurance and paid for it their entire lifes but found out they had to pay for their own dialysis or hip replacement because of a “pre-existing condition”.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 11:41 am 11:41 am
But I still had to pay the 10$ copayment for that visit.
Posted by: blip
==========================================
And that’s not counting for the risk that later in life and another insurance plan, that prehypertension will come back to hurt you as a pre-existing condition.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 11:45 am 11:45 am
Foghorn Leghorn:”A filibuster is obstruction. You cited zero.”
They used a procedural filibuster on the stimulus package (a cloture vote was required). It is assumed that Republicans are filibustering every major bill, hence the sudden need for 60 votes.
A filibuster was threatened to delay the vote on Sebelius. Heck, a cloture vote was even required to get the Ambassador to Iraq confirmed (Senate Vote #158). Are you really this ignorant of what the Republicans have been up to in the Senate?
The number of procedural filibusters (cloture votes) almost DOUBLED when the Republicans became the minority in the Senate two years ago. That’s documented fact.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 11:46 am 11:46 am
blip:”In my mind, it’s a mortal sin to deny medical care to people who would die without it.”
In reality, everyone short of the extreme fringes agree to this. Which is why completely free market healthcare just doesn’t work.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 11:49 am 11:49 am
MayBee…
I agree. But the typical republican discourse on immigration is laughably narrow.
You cannot talk about our lax immigration enforcement without addressing the entire economic structure that encourages and promotes it.
“Free Trade” agreements flood foreign markets with subsidized agricultural products, pushing rural populations in the Latin America off their farms and into cities… where they find work in the sweatshops that have sprung up, thanks to, you guessed it, NAFTA.
Rootless urban populations, when faced with the prospect of low wage sweatshop labor in Mexico or significantly higher wages across the border make the logical decision.
Meanwhile, American employers don’t want to pay Americans good wages or benefits… so they advertise their “high paying” minimum wage jobs to the migrants displaced by NAFTA.
Americans, feeling the squeeze of lower wages, decreasing opportunities, and a devalued dollar, invest heavily in the very businesses which benefit from this low cost labor.
We all lose out.
As with all things… it’s good to look at who benefits the most from this situation. It benefits transnational corporations and consolidates wealth in fewer hands. Plus, it places a strain on the power of the United States government, which weakens its power to regulate commerce and provide services to its people.
Rather than face the music for decades of intentionally bad trade policy, it’s much easier for these same people to blame it on “illegals.”
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 11:50 am 11:50 am
ok, but is it true you cannot get a hip replacement after age 57 in canada?
Posted by: WHAT! | May 11, 2009, 11:50 am 11:50 am
blip- Doctors don’t make any money from prescribing pills.
Posted by: MayBee | May 11, 2009, 11:53 am 11:53 am
I know! Isn’t it horrible the way we let business run roughshod over every sort of basic humane concern or human right.
I think people have a right to make money. But it is not the ONLY right that a person has.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 11:55 am 11:55 am
MayBee…
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that the HMO has relationships with certain drug companies…And their standard protocols of care seem to reflect this.
Otherwise, why wouldn’t a doctor tell someone in good health with prehypertension to lose 20 or 30 pounds?
Why would his first impulse be to give me costly drugs?
I’d hate to think that his opinion was determined by the fact that drug company gave him a free ballpoint pen or that the pharma reps in the waiting room with me were just TOOOOO CUTE to resist. Maybe it’s as dumb as that.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 11:59 am 11:59 am
PRIVATE FOR PROFIT HEALTHCARE IS AN OXYMORON!
As congress debates fixing Americas current private for profit healthcare disaster, global embarrassment, and national disgrace. The question is not weather we will have a public option. But rather what kind of public option we will have.
America is the only country in the developed world that has a GREED DRIVEN! PROFIT DRIVEN! IMMORAL! UNETHICAL! PRIVATE FOR PROFIT! healthcare delivery system.
As a result, hundreds of thousands of you are needlessly killed by your healthcare delivery system in America every year. And millions of you are crippled and injured. America is the only country in the developed World that does not have a NOT FOR PROFIT, PATIENT PROTECTING, government managed healthcare delivery option for all it’s people.
America currently has the most costly health care system in the developed world. And the lowest quality of healthcare in the developed world. And the most dangerous, deadly, and FEARED! healthcare delivery system in the developed world.
America is the only healthcare delivery system in the developed World that does not cover all it’s people automatically. And America has the most difficult healthcare system to access in the developed World.
Contact your representative and tell then that a single payer, government managed healthcare option is a must for everyone that wants it. Tell them that you demand that the public option be the finest in the World.
Tell them it should be available to everyone that wants it as a HUMAN RIGHT! Tell them it should be the easiest to access in the entire world. Tell them it should have the highest quality, with the greatest patient protections in the entire world. Tell them coverage should be automatic for everyone that wants it unless they choose to opt out. Tell them it should be the most affordable in the World. And tell them that NO ONE in the public option is to be reported to a credit agency, or driven into bankruptcy for unpaid medical bills just because they got sick, for FREEK’EN SAKES!
Tell them, none of the requirements above are negotiable. Tell them, that we are prepared to remove them from office. Tell them, we will rain down the political FIRES OF HELL! on any of them that would betray the American people. Or continue to compromise the life, health, safety, and National security of the American people for the GREED DRIVEN, PROFIT DRIVEN! private for profit Healthcare Industry.
TELL THEM NOW! AND PASS THE WORD ON.
God Bless You
Jacksmith — WORKING CLASS
Posted by: jacksmith | May 11, 2009, 12:05 pm 12:05 pm
blip:Otherwise, why wouldn’t a doctor tell someone in good health with prehypertension to lose 20 or 30 pounds?
Why would his first impulse be to give me costly drugs?
===================
People like to get prescriptions, because they feel like their doctor has done *something*. You usually see patients pushing for some sort of treatment or test, which is one thing that makes health care costs so high in the US.
I don’t know why your doctor didn’t tell you to lose weight, or if you have 20-30 lbs to lose. If you are overweight and he didn’t suggest weight loss along with the pills, you should probably look for another doctor.
The pills themselves would reduce your hypertension until you lost the weight. If weight loss brought your hypertension under control, your doctor would tell you to stop taking them. Happens all the time.
The relationship the HMO has with drug companies and doctors are separate. In both cases, they’ve negotiated to reduce costs to you.
Posted by: MayBee | May 11, 2009, 12:07 pm 12:07 pm
ok, but is it true you cannot get a hip replacement after age 57 in canada?
Posted by: WHAT!
========================================
No. It’s not true.
Canada had a shortage of orthopaedic surgeons more than a decade ago and that led to problems in “rationing”. What this means is that people were getting necessary treatment at a later stage of the problem than compared with other countries with universal coverage.
Such a problem could exist in the US as well. In a “free market” another kind of “rationing” would occur though. Orthopaedic surgery would just become more and more expensive.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 12:09 pm 12:09 pm
From a Canadian healthcare report in 2006:
Older Canadians (age 65 and over) continue to make up the majority of joint replacement patients-representing 65% of hip replacement and 68% of knee replacement patients in 2004-2005. However, the number of older Canadians as a proportion of the total number of patients undergoing joint replacement surgery has decreased from 71% (1994-1995) to 66% (2004-2005) over 10 years, as more Canadians are getting joint replacements at a younger age.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 12:11 pm 12:11 pm
jwh:
“They used a procedural filibuster on the stimulus package (a cloture vote was required). It is assumed that Republicans are filibustering every major bill, hence the sudden need for 60 votes.
A filibuster was threatened to delay the vote on Sebelius. Heck, a cloture vote was even required to get the Ambassador to Iraq confirmed (Senate Vote #158). Are you really this ignorant of what the Republicans have been up to in the Senate? ”
Threats of filibusters. Assumption of filibusters. Rumors of holds. It’s a veritable right wing conspiracy of obstruction (a word you continue to decline to define because there is not a definition that fits your argument.).
The “obstructions” you cite delayed the stimulus bill by what? Three days? A week?
So far you have come up with exactly one example of something that is yet to happen because of republicans “blind obstruction” and you implicitly accused Gore of obstruction in 2000 in the process.
Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn | May 11, 2009, 12:12 pm 12:12 pm
Maybee….
They are not negotiating to reduce costs to me.
They are negotiating to maximize their own profit margins.
My costs have only gone up, even though I make minimal use of their services.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 12:13 pm 12:13 pm
On the topic of rationing health care…
My dad started having problems with his hands. But since he had no insurance, he figured that whatever had happened, he would be OK.
Then, his legs started acting up. When he was old enough to go on Social Security, he finally went to the doctor and found that he had pretty advanced spinal stenosis.
They tried to get him walking again, but by this point, the nerve damage was too advanced and he ended up a paraplegic.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 12:18 pm 12:18 pm
WHAT!: “ok, but is it true you cannot get a hip replacement after age 57 in canada?”
Not as of a study released in 2006 by the Canadian Institute for Health Information that documented “Older Canadians (age 65 and over) continue to make up the majority of joint replacement patients-representing 65% of hip replacement and 68% of knee replacement patients in 2004-2005.”
Lies are like cockroaches – if you catch one, there are sure to be a dozen nearby…
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 12:18 pm 12:18 pm
Foghorn Leghorn:”A filibuster was threatened to delay the vote on Sebelius. Heck, a cloture vote was even required to get the Ambassador to Iraq confirmed (Senate Vote #158). Are you really this ignorant of what the Republicans have been up to in the Senate? ”
Threats of filibusters. Assumption of filibusters. Rumors of holds.”
Cloture votes are documented in response to procedural filibusters. Holds are likewise documented.
I had thought that the 21% support Republicans had left supported their obstructionist tactics (as you clearly do with regards to the stimulus), but perhaps they are just in such a fantasy world they just don’t believe the public record.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 12:21 pm 12:21 pm
Doh, I was a bit late on that hip replacement factoid. It was just so blatant that I wanted to whack it down before noticing others had beat me to it!
Posted by: jhw539 | May 11, 2009, 12:22 pm 12:22 pm
Of course people are going to lie about the “horrors” of Canadian healthcare.
It’s the same people who lied about WMDs in Iraq and about John Kerry’s military service and Obama’s birth certificate.
People pretend that people like Rove and Limbaugh are geniuses, but they are just willing to say whatever, and then hide when the truth shows up.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 12:23 pm 12:23 pm
Lies are like cockroaches – if you catch one, there are sure to be a dozen nearby…
Posted by: jhw539
===========================================
Nice one, and so true.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 12:24 pm 12:24 pm
blip-
They are not negotiating to reduce costs to me.
They are negotiating to maximize their own profit margins.
My costs have only gone up, even though I make minimal use of their services.
============
Are you talking about the doctor or the HMO?
If you only paid a $10 copay to your doctor, the cost you from the doctor has been vastly reduced. That’s what the HMO negotiated with the doctor.
The HMOs do the same thing with the prescription drug companies (or sometimes, particular pharmacies).
But the doctor does not make any money for prescribing the pills.
Posted by: MayBee | May 11, 2009, 12:26 pm 12:26 pm
“That’s what the Republicans seemed to think the last 8 years.”
Look at the numbers, and sober up. If we call the national debt when Bush took office “X,” when he left eight years later (with a Democrat congress in the final two) it was 2X. That’s bad, and many Republicans (and just about every Democrat) told him so. After five years of Obama with a Democratic congress, it will be 4X; after ten years it will be 8X.
The Obama debt simply cannot be serviced, and it will not be. The consequences cannot be avoided.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | May 11, 2009, 12:26 pm 12:26 pm
Doh, I was a bit late on that hip replacement factoid. It was just so blatant that I wanted to whack it down before noticing others had beat me to it!
Posted by: jhw539
========================================
Funny how we both found the same report and copied and pasted from it virtually the same in just a few minutes.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 12:26 pm 12:26 pm
Another dog and pony show. A chicago dem congresswoman is on video telling her supporters that this reform will “kill” the insurance industry, and laughs about it. “Of course it will” Debbie Wasserman Schultz tells them.
We are headed to severely rationed, very expensive to ALL TAXPAYERS with high premiums.
but the government gets to collect the money and can divert it to anything it wants to, ala social security savings, which is a downhill proposition for Americans, just as it has been in every other country.
Tell us what the premiums will be? Tell us if you will pass a law making it illegal to use the money for anything else, no matter how tangential, other than direct health care services.
Social security is our heads up to this next bottomless pit of rationed health care.
They spent all the social security money and now it is almost broke and they want to reduce benefits and up the eligibility age.
This will happen as they strangle us with this health care power grab!
Posted by: MNM | May 11, 2009, 12:28 pm 12:28 pm
Oh… but did you know this?
In Canada: If you want a prosthetic, you have to wait for an amputee to die, and then they will give you a refurbished limb.
It’s horrible. But I heard it on the radio…
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 12:32 pm 12:32 pm
“Fascist, it is in everybody’s (including MY) best interest that YOU are healthy and don’t infect the rest of society with your diseases or burden your family members with your troubles (financially and emotionally).”
Let’s take those one at a time. There is, indeed, a public interest in halting or preventing the spread of infectious diseases, and it is a cost that I would very happily see borne by the public, just as education and road-building are.
It is by no means anybody else’s business wthether I burden myself or my family with my troubles, and I do not ask anyone else to pay to alleviate those burdens. And by the same token I feel no obligation whatsoever to alleviate such burdens in others, other than through voluntary activities and contributions.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | May 11, 2009, 12:32 pm 12:32 pm
MayBee…
I still pay a significant amount in premiums. As does my employer.
A friend of mine had sharp stomach pains and they told her it could be something serious! Thousands of dollars later…. They gave her a laxative. She was constipated.
They don’t care about keeping costs down. They are like the medical equivalent of Halliburton.
Posted by: blip | May 11, 2009, 12:37 pm 12:37 pm
jwh:
Cloture votes do not imply the existence of a filibuster.
You refuse to define obstruction.
You can’t cite an actual filibuster.
You can’t cite an actual hold.
You can’t cite an example of the peoples business currently being blindly obstructed.
All hat and no cattle.
Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn | May 11, 2009, 12:39 pm 12:39 pm
Lets see,
Just so we know which PC dictionary to refer to with all this.
Obstructionist – A Republican Congressmen who does not agree with a Democratic Party majority position.
Person of Conscious – A Democratic Congressmen who does not agree with a Republican Party majority position.
Posted by: Mike_C | May 11, 2009, 12:43 pm 12:43 pm
Fascist: you forgot the remind us that not only did Bush leaves with a debt twice as big as he inherited; he also left us with the worst recession post-WWII, bordering on depression.
It simply costs a lot of money to drag the US out of the ditch.
Nothing is for free.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 12:45 pm 12:45 pm
blip-
There are three entities (at least). Your HMO, your doctor, and the drug companies.
You pay your HMO. I don’t doubt your premiums are going up.
Your payment to your doctor is lower than it would be without the HMO.
Your payment to the drug company is lower than it would be without your HMO.
That’s what the HMO does. It lowers your out of pocket costs to the entities that supply your health care.
The HMO makes money when people don’t need care, but pay premiums.
The HMO does not make money when it pays for more procedures than are necessary.
Posted by: MayBee | May 11, 2009, 12:46 pm 12:46 pm
Why are there no advocates for Single Payer or Universal Health Care included in your discussions of health care reform?
Why can’t we have the same health care as the Congress?
Posted by: I want it | May 11, 2009, 12:49 pm 12:49 pm
Why are there no advocates for Single Payer or Universal Health Care included in your discussions of health care reform?
Could it be that the Finance Committee of the United States Senate is a Pay to Play system just like Rod Blagojevich’s Illinois?
Max Baucus, Chair: $2.7 MILLION dollars in one election cycle
Chuck Grassley, Ranking Republican: $1.8 MILLION dollars in one election cycle
Orrin Hatch: $1 MILLION dollars in one election cycle
Kent Conrad: $800,000 in one election cycle
Blanche Lincoln: $800,000 in one election cycle
Mike Enzi: $800,000 in one election cycle
John Ensign: $700,000 in one election cycle
Jim Bunning: $600,000 in one election cycle
Mike Crapo : $600,000 in one election cycle
Tom Carper: $500,000 in one election cycle
Olympia Snowe: $375,000 in one election cycle
That’s $10.7 MILLION dollars paid DIRECTLY to eleven members of the Senate Finance Committee by the for-profit health care industry in just the last election cycle alone.
No more Pay to Play in the U.S. Senate! Real Health Care Reform NOW!
Posted by: MONEY TALKS | May 11, 2009, 12:52 pm 12:52 pm
Fascist: “It is by no means anybody else’s business wthether I burden myself or my family with my troubles,”
It certainly is everybody’s business: your employer, your colleagues, employer of your spouse or partner who needs to take care of you and has to stay home, his or her colleagues and employer: all are affected by you being sick.
And it is statistically proven that the earlier you seek medical attention, the sooner you are back in the market.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 12:53 pm 12:53 pm
I remember when insurance companies where not ubiquitous/universally required .
Doctors/hospitals charge crazy rates for anything and everything these days only because insurance companies will usually pay without question whatever the doctors/hospitals bill them for ,and the insurance companies subsequently just raise their rate unilaterally whenever profits start to lag ,a perfect circle of unacceptable tomfoolery and money-grubbing.
It is utterly disgusting and completely unethical to turn health care into a fat cat investment profit farm ,where sickness is to be, if not promoted , blatantly commercialized into a catch 22 pseudo-ponzi scheme that keeps most Americans struggling mightily just to get proper health care day-to-day.
Unacceptable.
Posted by: Davis | May 11, 2009, 12:58 pm 12:58 pm
Monday, May 11th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Last but Not Least – The Final Installment of the FY 2010 Budget
Peter R. Orszag, Director
“Deficit projections. OMB projects that the deficit will be about $90 billion higher in FY 2009 and also in 2010 than it did in February. The deficits in these years, now projected to be 12.9 percent and 8.5 percent of GDP, respectively, are driven in large part by the economic irresponsible administration.”
and
“Treasury now estimates that overall federal revenue will be less than was projected in February by between $30 billion and $50 billion in each of this year and next. We also have more information about the severity of the financial crisis facing the nation, and this is reflected in new, higher estimates for the cost of financial stabilization efforts undertaken through TARP and by the FDIC.”
Posted by: say what | May 11, 2009, 12:59 pm 12:59 pm
Why are there no advocates for Single Payer or Universal Health Care included in your discussions of health care reform?
=========================================
One, because it is politically a bridge too far for the US, I’m afraid.
Second, there are basically two systems that lead to Universal Health Care. Single Payer or Beveridge-type is one (Canada, UK); Bismarck-type systems or Regulated Private Insurance systems (Switzerland, Netherlands, Germany) is the other.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 1:00 pm 1:00 pm
the auto industry is teetering for real and there’s not much hope that the Chicago Way will be able to keep the GM bondholders in line.
add to this the link from dwp #8 and I’m preparing for a major market correction and a frantic reshuffling of the deck chairs on SS Titanic, I mean SS United States of Obama.
Posted by: SINK SINK SINK | May 11, 2009, 1:03 pm 1:03 pm
MayBee, read the Declaration of Geneva for the medical profession for why EVERYBODY has a right to health care, regardless of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, *social standing* or *any other factor*.
Since NOBODY may be denied health care, it is economically the most beneficial to provide health care as soon as possible.
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 1:06 pm 1:06 pm
“the Declaration of Geneva for the medical profession for why EVERYBODY has a right to health care, regardless of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, ‘social standing’ or ‘any other factor.’”
No one has a “right” to anything unless someone else has a duty to provide it. I haven’t read this particular declaration from Geneva, but I’d be interested to know whom it identifies as having that duty, and by what authority it assigns that duty.
I think it would be a good idea if we all put our cards on the table here: would those of you who are among the forty percent of American adults who pay no income taxes at all please identify yourselves as such? It really helps sharpen the focus to know just who is asking for someone else entirely to take care of them.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | May 11, 2009, 1:22 pm 1:22 pm
WvO:It certainly is everybody’s business: your employer, your colleagues, employer of your spouse or partner who needs to take care of you and has to stay home, his or her colleagues and employer: all are affected by you being sick.
===========
If you are going to make the argument that it is everyone’s *right* to get health care, that is a very different argument than the one you’ve made that I quoted above.
Posted by: MayBee | May 11, 2009, 1:22 pm 1:22 pm
MayBee…
I still pay a significant amount in premiums. As does my employer.
A friend of mine had sharp stomach pains and they told her it could be something serious! Thousands of dollars later…. They gave her a laxative. She was constipated.
They don’t care about keeping costs down. They are like the medical equivalent of Halliburton.
Posted by: blip
================================
One word answer to the primary reason for this: litigation.
Democrats get HUGE money from lawyers so don’t expect tort reform.
Posted by: Cryos | May 11, 2009, 1:27 pm 1:27 pm
I went to the Wikipedia piece on that Geneva declaration, and all I found was this:
“I will not permit considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient…”
Who is “I” in that averment? Is anyone bound by it who does not swear to it? Can a declaration from Geneva impose a duty on all the doctors in the United States? What is the “duty” referred to in the declaration?
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | May 11, 2009, 1:28 pm 1:28 pm
Posting a post I did on another site that summarizes what I see as the 3 biggest PREVENTABLE COSTS and democrats refusal to address them. These could easily be done within the current system but that wouldn’t reach the utopian goal of big government making your decisions for you.
Posted by: Cryos | May 11, 2009, 1:28 pm 1:28 pm
“It certainly is everybody’s business: your employer, your colleagues, employer of your spouse or partner who needs to take care of you and has to stay home, his or her colleagues and employer: all are affected by you being sick.”
To the extent that it is my employer’s business, it is a matter between me and my employer. As for the others you mention, nothing you have said makes it their business to provide money for my health care, nor me for theirs.
It is my business, to an extent, whether the fellow next to me in the restaurant chews with his mouth open, but I don’t expect the government to intervene to protect me from this annoyance. It is my business, to an extent, if people don’t show up for work just because they want to go fishing, but what does that have to do with the government?
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | May 11, 2009, 1:36 pm 1:36 pm
“Fascist: you forgot the remind us that not only did Bush leaves with a debt twice as big as he inherited; he also left us with the worst recession post-WWII, bordering on depression.
It simply costs a lot of money to drag the US out of the ditch.
Nothing is for free.
————————————
Willem van Oranje
Please try to get a new set of talking points from Herr Olbermann.
I is nice to see your another liberal who sees only with his Barney Frank colored glasses. I mean we all “know” no Democrat contributed anything to the current economic situation. After all, they cant even figure out who writes their own bills!
Posted by: Mike_C | May 11, 2009, 1:48 pm 1:48 pm
You guys seem to want to bring up the Declaration of Geneva here….
“I will maintain the utmost respect for human life from the time of conception; even under threat. I will not use my medical knowledge contrary to the laws of humanity.”
This sort of arise a bit of conflict for you liberals doesn’t it. After all your spewing off about torture and such and your moral standing on that issue, this statement kinds of throws you for a moral loop I would say.
Also, YOU, Willem van Oranje, you seem to be forgetting doctor-patient confidentiality with your wild statements about “who” has a “right” to “what”.
Posted by: Mike_C | May 11, 2009, 2:14 pm 2:14 pm
I wonder if there is an investment tracking fund for entities that provide offshore medical procedures.
Posted by: DontGet818OnMeNow | May 11, 2009, 3:33 pm 3:33 pm
Also, YOU, Willem van Oranje, you seem to be forgetting doctor-patient confidentiality with your wild statements about “who” has a “right” to “what”.
Posted by: Mike_C
===========================================
This doesn’t make any sense. Explain
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 4:05 pm 4:05 pm
Please try to get a new set of talking points from Olbermann.
I is nice to see your another liberal who sees only with his Barney Frank colored glasses. I mean we all “know” no Democrat contributed anything to the current economic situation. After all, they cant even figure out who writes their own bills!
Posted by: Mike_C
=======================================
You can’t do better than this?
I’ve never said that Democrats don’t bear any responsibility. This problem was three decades in the making and started with Ronnie Reagan. The Randian “philosophy” he brought to the debate has also infected the Democrats, but not as much as it has infected the Republicans.
But the attempts to put the blame solely on Barney Frank when the GOP was in control of the House, Senate and WH while BF was in the minority is utterly disingenuous. After Frank became chairman of the House Financial Services Committee he was finally able to present the President with meaningful reform. As Frank said: “during twelve years of Republican rule no reform was adopted regarding Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. In 2007, a few months after I became the Chairman, the House passed a strong reform bill; we sought to get the [Bush] administration’s approval to include it in the economic stimulus legislation in January 2008; and finally got it passed and onto President Bush’s desk in July 2008. Twelve years of Republican rule produced no reform of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. We were able to adopt it in nineteen months, and we could have done it much quicker if the [Bush] administration had cooperated.”
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009, 4:20 pm 4:20 pm
As Frank said: “during twelve years of Republican rule no reform was adopted regarding Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. In 2007, a few months after I became the Chairman, the House passed a strong reform bill; we sought to get the [Bush] administration’s approval to include it in the economic stimulus legislation in January 2008; and finally got it passed and onto President Bush’s desk in July 2008. Twelve years of Republican rule produced no reform of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. We were able to adopt it in nineteen months, and we could have done it much quicker if the [Bush] administration had cooperated.”
Posted by: Willem van Oranje | May 11, 2009 4:20:29 PM
====================
Nice try to spin the Fannie/Freddie situation. Democrats are squarely to blame why do you think the fact it gets buried. For example FF is paying more bonuses than AIG and is costing taxpayers more money. I bet not many people know it.
Oh here is an article in FEBRUARY 2008 where DEMOCRATS wanted to further DEREGULATE Fannie/Freddie. Nice try. Republicans requested it 20+ times between 2003-2006 after which FF spent $200 million to lobby against it.
Sorry but the facts and congressional statements are against your spin.
Federal regulators for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the biggest buyers of American home mortgages, will remove limits on the amount of loans and securities the companies can own, a step that could help bolster the weakening housing market.
Democrats in Congress and some mortgage industry officials have been calling on Mr. Lockhart to loosen controls over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac so the companies could play a more active role in the housing market by buying bigger and more risky home loans and securities backed by those mortgages. On Wednesday, Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, welcomed the lifting of the portfolio caps and called on Mr. Lockhart to go even further by removing the excess capital requirement.
While Democrats have advocated lifting restrictions on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the Bush administration and the Federal Reserve have insisted that the companies deserve close scrutiny because of their large role in the mortgage and financial markets.
Posted by: Cryos | May 11, 2009, 7:04 pm 7:04 pm
Willem van Oranje, you believe Barney Frank? The man is a pathalogical liar! Even the New York Times documented his many lies over the years.
As Frank Raines, Jim Johnson, and Jamie Gorelick were raking in millions of dollars while running Fannie Mae into the ground and kicking off the credit crisis, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd actively fought investigations into rampant corruption.
In 2003, when the Bush administration proposed much tighter regulation of the two companies, Frank was adamant that “these two entities, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are not facing any kind of financial crisis.” When the White House warned of “systemic risk for our financial system” unless the mortgage giants were curbed, Frank complained that the administration was more concerned about financial safety than about housing.
Google “New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae” and “Pressured to Take More Risk, Fannie Reached Tipping Point”.
Posted by: Tony D | May 11, 2009, 7:06 pm 7:06 pm
Dear America,
Most of us know that there are, at least publicly, no disagreements on the need for health-care reform between the Democrats and Republicans. They all say that they want to make medical insurance more available and more affordable for more Americans. Democrats seem to favor letting the government run a Medicare-like plan, open to anyone who doesn’t like the available private options, or who doesn’t qualify for Medicaid or Medicare. That, of course means socialized medicine, something the Republicans are against. They apparently favor some sort of tax credit for people to buy health insurance on the open market. Of course, we really can’t be sure, for nether party has yet to introduce any legislation.
Chances are there will be a long and ugly political battle. And eventually, we will end up with a health-care reform plan that is full of pork and hidden loopholes for special interest groups. That is, unfortunately, the American way.
But it does not have to be that way. Health care reform is not a difficult issue, but it is an issue that will impact each and every one of us in the years to come. We should not and must not limit ourselves only to options presented by our political parties.
Here in America, we have some of the smartest and most creative minds in the world. It would be easy for us to give the politicians a run for their money. We, the people of United States, certainly have the capacity to come up with an idea for the best health-care system in the world. All we have to do is get involved. So in the hope of sparking involvement, I have put together a plan of my own. And I would like invite anyone who is interested to join me to come up with a better plan.
As it stands, my plan will not only fulfill President Obama’s goals of provide affordable health-care insurance to the 46 million uninsured Americans, preserve the right of consumers to choose their doctors and lower costs in the health-care system, but also reduce the cost for individuals as well as the government in the long run, improve the overall quality of the service providers, induce personal responsibility, encourage healthy lifestyle, stimulate the economy and make United State a more competitive place to do business. Can we really have a plan that will do all that? Yes we can.
My plan is built on two of the most basic economic principles- competition and incentives.
Under this plan, the government will be responsible for creating competitive mechanisms for the business of health care. Every American will receive a stake, as incentives (in the form of “Medical Allocation Credit” or MAC), in the system.
Health care providers, under the government established competitive frame work, will automatically find ways to improve quality and become more efficient so they can thrive in their business.
We, the people, as not just the consumers of health care, but also contributors and part owners of this new system, will become more involved and responsible for our own health.
Finally, businesses in general, will become passive participants of this plan. Released from the burden of health care, they will become more competitive globally, which will be good for the U.S. economy as a whole.
Sounds good? Here is how my plan will be set up.
The Government will take the lead and do the following…
• Set basic standards, rules and regulation for health care providers. Define what constitutes minimum coverage based on proven and established medical procedures.
• Set up a Medical Allocation Credit (MAC) account, which as the name implies, will only be used for health care related purposes, for every American. Initially, MAC will be assigned to individuals based on their age. (15x Age, for example)
• Require every person living in the U.S. to purchase health insurance at the government defined minimum coverage, using their MAC as deductible.
• Set up a web site for the consumers to “rate” the services they have received from their health care providers (insurance companies, doctors, hospitals, etc…).
• Update and publish the result of the ratings along with additional information about the service provider such as type of service, pricing, location and hours of operation in a simple standard format on the same site.
• Purchase insurance (for people who cannot afford it) from the best consumer rated insurance provider(s) at bulk discount. The contract for insurances will be reviewed and renewed periodically (annually, for example)
• Give preventive care (such as mammogram) credit for qualified individuals.
• Give contagious disease exceptions. (Treatments for diseases such as SARS or any diseases that can potentially threaten public health will be paid for by the government.)
Health insurance providers will-
• Be required to offer minimum coverage (as defined by the government) to everyone who wants it. Extra coverage can be offered at additional premium.
• Be required to have premiums that are based on age, sex, deductible and coverage only. No one can be denied from the minimum coverage for any reason.
• Have the option to offer discounts based on only positive results of a physical examinations. (For example, provider could offer free physical to interested customer above certain age. If he/she meets a set healthy standard, the customer could use the result to apply for a discount.)
• Be required (like all other health care providers such as doctors, clinics and hospitals) to include a standard “rating” questionnaire along with every bill or invoice.
And we, as the consumers will -
• Be required to purchase health insurance with the government defined minimum coverage from the insurance company of our choice (as an individual or a family). Additional premium coverage can be purchased at individuals own discretion.
• Be able to shop for the preferred insurance companies, doctors, clinics and hospitals using the information provided on the new government health web site.
• Use the MAC as the base deductibles to lower health insurance premium.
• Have the option to further reduce our premium by purchasing insurance with deductibles greater than our MAC (but we must pay out of our own pocket before the MAC kicks in.)
• Have the option to contribute into our own MAC account via pre-tax payroll deduction thereby reduce our premium even more.
• Updated and renew our policy annually on our birth month. Premiums will be based on our MAC at the time of policy renewal.
• Have the option to barrow against our MAC to preserve the lower insurance rate.
• Have the option of withdrawing the money we (and /or our employer) put into our MAC, minus the income tax, before we renew our insurance policy on our birth month.
• Have the option to have our premium deducted directly from our pre- tax income or pay directly and have the premium be tax deductible from our income tax.
• Get assistance from the government for insurance payments for those who cannot afford it.
• Be encouraged to “rate” the service we have received from their provider via phone, internet or mail whenever we receive a bill from our service provider. The result of which will be updated and published on the government site.
Businesses will-
• Be release from the obligation of providing health insurance. But employers must first redirect, dollar for dollar, what they pay to the insurance companies to their employees.
• For those employees who select the option, deduct (pre-tax) and pay the premiums for the employee’s health care insurance from their pay check.
• Pay a fixed sum ($10 or so, pre-tax) into the general MAC fund per employee, per month.
• Have the option to deposit money, tax free, into their employee’s individual MAC account as an employee benefit. (The employee will have the option to withdraw that money on the yearly bases on their birth month, before they renew their insurance. Income taxes will have to be paid, of course.)
This is the outline of my plan; I know that it is far from perfect. Many details will still have to be worked out. But it is the first and the only complete health- care reform plan that is presented to the public as of today. This, of course, is not intended to be the lone alternative to politicians’ plan. This is a challenge for you to come up with a better plan.
My fellow Americans, we need not to have our fate to be determined by politicians. As a nation, we have never met a challenge that we could not overcome. Instead of just complaining and demanding help like spoiled children, we, you and I, can contribute. Won’t you join me?
Posted by: an h lin | May 16, 2009, 9:26 pm 9:26 pm