President Obama and PM Netanyahu: Headed for a Showdown?
EmailThe thorny religious and political debates President Obama steps into today with his commencement address at Notre Dame University — where anti-abortion advocates are decrying his receiving an honorary degree as contrary to the Church’s views on life — might seem as pleasant as a trip to his 7-year-old daughter’s soccer game compared to the Mid-east peace process debates the president will face Monday.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu arrived in the US Sunday, with his entourage feeling "tense," according to Israeli media, in anticipation of his meeting Monday with President Obama.
President Obama will push Netanhayu on pursuing negotiations with Palestinian leaders and halting settlements in disputed territories — including the growth of current settlements.
Netanyahu has so far refused to embrace a two-state solution to the conflict with the Palestinians, and to stop continued construction of current settlements on land Israel captured in the 1967 war.
"The President is very clear that his commitment to pursue peace between Israel and the Palestinians that’s based on a formula of a secure Jewish state of Israel living side by side next to an independent, viable Palestinian state," an Obama administration official told reporters in a conference call on Saturday. "It’s a principle that guides his efforts and has been the foundation of many past efforts on this issue."
Referring to the 2003 "road map" that also called upon the Palestinian leadership to halt terrorist attacks against Israel, the official said that Israel has an obligation to halt the construction of settlements.
The Obama official said that US Special Envoy George Mitchell "has done the important groundwork to now make this the appropriate time for the President to deal directly with his counterparts as the leaders of these countries… All parties to this process have responsibilities and obligations to make it work, to give us a chance to be successful in our efforts to achieve these peace agreements. The Israelis have obligations related to settlements and outposts. The Palestinians have obligations relating to security and terrorism. The Arab states have responsibilities to build upon their peace initiative."
The two new leaders seem destined for a showdown on these issues.
"We think that the Israeli stance is clear," an official from Netanyahu’s entourage told Ynet. "Israel will maintain its demands regarding its identity as a Jewish state, the importance of its security and its fear of having another army to deal with west of Jordan."
Israeli Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz, a close Netanyahu ally, told Ynet that settlements will not halt.
"The greater Jerusalem should continue to be built, and based on all the understandings – including the ones reached with the Americans – it should be built and reinforced. This includes, in my personal view, the construction in the E1 area, which is part of Maaleh Adumim, and will maintain the contiguity with Jerusalem. All Zionist parties in Israel believe that the settlement blocs must be boosted and built up, in line with the issue of natural growth."
But Netanyahu will not support the construction of new settlements, Katz said.
"Bibi," as Netanyahu is known in Israel, will propose a new road map towards peace, allies said.
Specifically, Katz said he would call for a joint American-Israel collaboration on an alternative Mideast peace policy "which will replace previous initiatives such as the Arab initiative and the diplomatic dialogue conducted by the previous government." Katz said "later it would be possible to bring in moderate Arab states such as Egypt and Jordan, and with American encouragement even states like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and others."
President Obama recently discussed with Jordan’s King Abdullah the "possibility of taking this Arab Peace Initiative, which is, as the President has said, a constructive contribution to efforts to achieve Middle East peace, and building on it and making it an even stronger contributor to moving forward."
King Abdullah told AFP that President Obama will soon unveil a new plan for Arab-Israeli peace negotiations.
"We expect an announcement from the US administration," Abdullah said, "of its plan to restart negotiations to achieve a comprehensive solution."
Abdullah said "a resolution to the conflict is an American strategic interest. And we hope that it will announce this plan as soon as possible, because lost time undermines the chances for peace. There is a tremendous need to move quickly, seriously and effectively."
And the King warned that "the possibilities of a new round of violence, a new war, will increase and the region and the world will pay the price," if peace talks are further delayed.
An issue where there may be more agreement tomorrow involves Iran.
Netanyahu will commit to Obama on Monday to alerting the U.S. before attacking Iran’s nuclear facilities.
“I believe that the government of Israel will have a commitment to no surprises, a commitment not to bolt out of the blue,” an official with a pro-Israel organization told the Jewish Telegraphic Agency.
"The President recognizes the urgency of the issue as it relates to our interest and to our friends’ interest," an Obama administration official said.
In an interview with Newsweek, President Obama said "I’ve been very clear that I don’t take any options off the table with respect to Iran. I don’t take options off the table when it comes to U.S. security, period." He added, "I understand very clearly that Israel considers Iran an existential threat, and given some of the statements that have been made by President Ahmadinejad, you can understand why. So their calculation of costs and benefits are going to be more acute. They’re right there in range and I don’t think it’s my place to determine for the Israelis what their security needs are.
That said, Mr. Obama said "we are going to reach out" to Iran "and try to shift off of a pattern over the last 30 years that hasn’t produced results in the region." And at the same time, he would "make an argument to Israel as an ally that the approach we are taking is one that has to be given a chance and offers the prospect of security, not just for the United States but also for Israel, that is superior to some of the other alternatives."
Israeli President Shimon Peres, for one, sounds optimistic. "I think it is a very encouraging and timely proposition," Peres said at the World Economic Forum on the banks of the Dead Sea. "Time has come to depose war, hatred and terror and come to real business — how to assure the life, the safety and the future of our children We were negotiating with them (the Palestinians) for quite a while. I think the gap was narrowed and I do believe it is a bridgeable gap. With… a little bit of fresh ideas, it can be bridged."
President Obama will meet at the White House with Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak on May 26 and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on May 28.
- jpt
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A little outside the box thinking can’t hurt….Why not annex Israel as a US territory, while at the same time restoring the orginial borders? 1-Israelis would get their sense of security 2-Middle east players wouldn’t have to suspect a plot that doesn’t exist if we make their suspicions reality 3-We could deal with the middle east directly instead of trying to get through the ins and outs of Israeli mentality. I can think of other benefits for our own and world security besides these.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 17, 2009, 1:10 pm 1:10 pm
Yes, Obama, reach out to the Palestinians and Iran. Somehow we knew you would, given your background. Reaching out to those who hate and murder in the blink of an eye do not deserve our respect. You are not dealing with rational government officials, you are dealing with Hamas and extremist groups that will not stop until they destroy what we hold dear….freedom.
Posted by: Linda /Michigan | May 17, 2009, 1:13 pm 1:13 pm
Who is killing babies, the irresponsible moms and fathers or the President. People act like Obama is an abortion doctor or something. If you people want your childern to stop having abortions then talk some sense into them and quit blaming government. That goes for the Sarah Palins, Octo moms Britney Spears little sisters, and everyone. Its the ignorant parents of today of why there is so many abortions.
Posted by: DJDAZwrld | May 17, 2009, 1:19 pm 1:19 pm
Let’s face it- Iran is well on their way to acquiring nuclear weapon capability. Diplomacy or sanctions haven’t worked and won’t work, imo, because with Iran having nuke capability, re-arranges the playing field and gives them huge leverage to deal with the rest of the world. When Obama says “all options are on the table’ meaning military sanctions, who believes he would actually use that option?
Posted by: Sigmonde | May 17, 2009, 2:05 pm 2:05 pm
Who does control our foriegn policy? I have often wondered.
Posted by: Thinking | May 17, 2009, 2:14 pm 2:14 pm
Where were or are the big protestations about priest molesting little boys and girls aren’t they life too? Oh what hyprocrisy of these so called right to lifers..where were or are the protestations when more than 11 thousand innocent civilian lives were lost in Iraq and afghanistan due to the wars? I guess those lives don’t count. Why not be consistent! Hey what about the innocent people who have been killed at abortion clinics by the kooky right to lifers..how many of these people have adopted homeless, hungry children of which there are many thousands in this country! These protestors are hypocrits of the highest order.
Posted by: Stanley | May 17, 2009, 2:23 pm 2:23 pm
Either we unite together or die together like fools..I think this was a quote by Dr King. The Israelis and the Palestinians are dying together like fools. Why not just allow the Palestinians to have their own state and monitor them like the South Koreans have to monitor the North koreans..The US offer extra security for Israel if the kooky palestinian element still want to get rid of Israel. Both must co-exist in peace and the US must support both. I think that make better sense than fighting year in year out and dying like fools on both sides.
Posted by: Stanley | May 17, 2009, 2:28 pm 2:28 pm
Thinking- We all do. 300 million brains scanning the ether and our environment for the best ideas…transmitting them and sharing them at lightning speed…sifting them through our instituions and social filters…pitting them against the needs and appetites of 300 million living organisms…Each individual striving and succeeding to bring us all one step closer to God, and the truly good and eternal. Unless you think all of creation is a tragedy…in that case I would say sit on your couch and complain about the Bilderbergs.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 17, 2009, 2:43 pm 2:43 pm
Amber, I’m just saying, since this Israel-Palestine conflict is causing us so much trouble and costing us so dearly that we need to keep weighing in…let’s weigh in.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 17, 2009, 3:19 pm 3:19 pm
What would Israel have to loose with becoming a protectorate, or even a state? A few changes to their system, a little territory here and there in exchange for perpetual security. Surely Israel and the US aren’t that different that the differences in our systems could not be resolved? On the contrary, aren’t their values supposed to be very similar to ours? And there is such a communication of people and business between Israel and the US, why not make the necessary changes and include them in our system?
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 17, 2009, 3:36 pm 3:36 pm
The Israeli entourages have only been feeling ‘tense’ since 1948.
Posted by: DontGet818OnMeNow | May 17, 2009, 4:06 pm 4:06 pm
Israel has much to lose if they cede any territory, and that is based on history.
Unreported is that the palestinians have failed to stop the almost daily missile attacks on Israel, and have not met any of the criteria of the mutually agreed upon “roadmap agreement”.
Only Israel is expected to perform.
The last time they ceded territory for peace the palestinians (Hamas) simply moved the guns closer.
Even today, against all rules, munitions, rockets and missiles are openly smuggled into proximity to allow firing upon Israel.
The previous prisoner exchange agreement had Israel returning dozens of terrorists and all Israel got was six bodies.
There is no equality in the reporting on this issue and the public here does not understand what Israel endures day after day after day.
I hope Netanyahu stands his ground and demands disarming Iran before any negotiations take place.
Obama wants Israel to commit suicide and hopefully Netanyahu will stand against this.
Only last week Ahmadinejad repeated his desire to blow Israel off the face of the earth and the mainstream media was silent.
Who exactly is Obama trying to make happy? Ahmadinejad? Hamas? We already gave Hamas billions of dollars (for humanitarian reasons ) but they divert it, and Obama knows this.
It is insanity to think Israel will go along with Obama’s plan.
Posted by: MNM | May 17, 2009, 4:10 pm 4:10 pm
I have always been pro-Israel.. even since the ‘how many day’ war with Egypt?..anyway.. the situation in Gaza and the West Bank should be addressed in some way (immediately), if only from a purely humanitarian point of view..
The poor treatment of the Palestinians (whoever they are) only feeds the fires of Hamas and others.. and I agree.. that the U.S. media rarely reports on their situation.. it (media)seems blind to their plight (remember that I prefaced this by saying that I am very much pro-Israel).
Posted by: DontGet818OnMeNow | May 17, 2009, 4:23 pm 4:23 pm
What would Israel have to loose with becoming a protectorate, or even a state?
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Who wants to go from a nation to a state? But then there’s the opposite of that- like states wanting to be a nation. But let us not go there and discuss Governor Rick Perry.
Posted by: amber | May 17, 2009, 4:56 pm 4:56 pm
Palestinians elect a government(Hamas) that refuses to recognize Israel and everybody cries foul but when Israel elects a government that refuses to recognize Palestine nobody talks about it.
What kind of blatant hypocrisy is this?
Posted by: keith | May 17, 2009, 5:01 pm 5:01 pm
amber wrote:
`Who wants to go from a nation to a state? But then there’s the opposite of that- like states wanting to be a nation. But let us not go there and discuss Governor Rick Perry. `
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Countries that do not practice a federal system refer to themselves as states. Israel is a state but Palestine is not. Israel likes to call itself a nation state because it is a nation of Jews. America is not a nation because it is too diverse.
Posted by: keith | May 17, 2009, 5:08 pm 5:08 pm
Palestinians are firing rockets because their land is been occupied by Israel.
Posted by: Norm | May 17, 2009, 5:10 pm 5:10 pm
Countries that do not practice a federal system refer to themselves as states.
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Okie dokie.
Posted by: amber | May 17, 2009, 5:18 pm 5:18 pm
MNM,
This Israeli government is opposed to the two-state solution because they dont want to give back the Plaestinian lands they are occupying.
And why would Iran want to attack Israel when they cannot fight them? Israel has nukes but does not want others to have them. Actually it is a fact that when two countries have a strong military, they never fight. Its called the balance of power.
Ahmedinejad much as I dont like him knows that Israel is going to try to attack him thats why he is preparing for it. Who is talking about attcks more? Ahmedinejad or Bibi? We all know its Bibi.
Look we are in a deep recession and I dont want gas prices to hit a record high due to Israel`s recklessness. That would crush the world economy. If you were very observant you`d have noticed oil prices dropped sharply to record lows due to the financial meltdown. It was done on purpose.
Think.
Posted by: Norm | May 17, 2009, 5:19 pm 5:19 pm
It appears to me that in exchange for a two party state, Obama has given Israel the right to go ahead and bomb Iran. It’s what everybody wants anyway. They cannot be allowed to have Nuclear Weapons. They will sell them to anybody if it means being able to target the West. “Lets get ready to rumble!”
Posted by: James F | May 17, 2009, 5:24 pm 5:24 pm
Obama has very good intentions but the people around him would make sure this fails. For instance Rahm Emanuel is an IDF veteran and a zionist. Israel is occupying Palestinian lands and does not want to give those lands back. People settling on those lands are Bibi`s support base thats why he is opposed to a palestinian state.
Posted by: Brian | May 17, 2009, 5:27 pm 5:27 pm
Linda/Michigan,
and you think an Israeli government that pulls down palestinian building and build houses on them for its new settlers is reasonable?
An Israeli government that air raids and bombs palestinian women and children, uses chemical weapons like phosphorous is reasonable?
A government that has crammed 1.6 million people in a 26 sq mile area and cuts food, water and medicine is reasonable?
A government that has killed more than 3,000 and injured more than 4,000 as against 29 people killed by the Hamas since 2002 more reasonable?
Get the facts before you characterize somebody as unreasonable.
Posted by: Brian | May 17, 2009, 5:38 pm 5:38 pm
It is easy to shovel the idea of acceptance of 2 states when you are not recieving a daily charge of rockets into your neighborhoods.As long as the Palestinians and the muslims extremists continue to bomb,shoot rockets and kill innocent people the State of Israel will never give away a single inch of land.This peace has been negociated since 1948 without end on sight. Maybe is Apocaliptic.The chances of Obama getting Netanyahu to accept a 2 state deal is as good as asking Obama to stop financial aid to ACORN. never..
Posted by: Frank | May 17, 2009, 5:40 pm 5:40 pm
“Time has come to depose war, hatred and terror and come to real business — how to assure the life, the safety and the future of our children”
Wisdom.
Posted by: ghost | May 17, 2009, 5:43 pm 5:43 pm
If Obama can’t stand up to Pelosi why does anyone think he can stand up to foreign leaders?
Posted by: jim | May 17, 2009, 5:50 pm 5:50 pm
This Israeli government is opposed to the two-state solution because they dont want to give back the Plaestinian lands they are occupying.
And why would Iran want to attack Israel when they cannot fight them? Israel has nukes but does not want others to have them. Actually it is a fact that when two countries have a strong military, they never fight. Its called the balance of power.
NORM
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This is denial of the sort that went on before the first holocaust.
Ahmadinejad regularly advocates the destruction of Israel, ask him why. He is building nuclear bombs and plainly and often states that he will destroy Israel.
Israel opposes the 2 state solution now because they would be at even greater risk. Look at a map the borders would be even more exposed than they are now.
Solve the security issues, then we can talk about a two state solution.
Posted by: MNM | May 17, 2009, 6:07 pm 6:07 pm
Israel is clearly the ‘good guy’ in the Middle East, but mostly because the rest of that portion of the world is at least a millennium behind in social development. The incredible incompetence Israel has shown in dealing with the Palestinians (perpetual occupation with no exit plan?) is pathetic. They need a kick in the pants to make the tough choices to achieve a stable situation. At this point, it really looks like Israel is behaving much like the Palestinians – an irate mob with no ability to chart a path towards the future. And it has certainly been noticed that the only person to assassinate an Israeli prime minister was a radical Israeli – the type that is usually found in the settlements, ‘interacting’ with the Palestinians.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 17, 2009, 6:26 pm 6:26 pm
jim:”If Obama can’t stand up to Pelosi why does anyone think he can stand up to foreign leaders?”
The only people who think he can’t stand up to Pelosi, especially after the stimulus (when the birth control and National Mall money were stripped at a word from him) or the 2009 budget (when Pelosi wanted a scotched earth policy of no earmarks, since Republicans actually had more $$ per representative in earmarks), think Bush was a great President, Cheney is right about everything, and if we just have enough ammo to hold on until the rapture next year everything will be fine.
So yes, most of the country does think he can stand up to foreign leaders quite well.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 17, 2009, 6:32 pm 6:32 pm
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu arrived in the US Sunday, with his entourage feeling “tense,”
Hes feeling Tense?
For Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s staff if this can help please pass this on to the Prime Minister …
Sir you are one of our Important Allies as you as a guest in the USA this is for you.
1. Sit or stand in a relaxed position.
2. Slowly inhale through your nose, counting to five in your head.
3. Let the air out from your mouth, counting to eight in your head as it leaves your lungs. Repeat several times. That’s it!
Now Sir you will be ready to meet President Obama. He a nice guy. No Seriously! You have nothing to worry about Sir. Everything is going to be all Right!!!
Posted by: Sarah Silverman Fan! | May 17, 2009, 6:34 pm 6:34 pm
Israel is clearly the ‘good guy’ in the Middle East, but mostly because the rest of that portion of the world is at least a millennium behind in social development.
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How is it that the Middle East is a millennium behind in social development? The extreme factions of the Taliban and Al Qaeda are definitely centuries behind in social development, but how can you make that generalization for the entirety of the Middle East region?
Posted by: kim | May 17, 2009, 6:52 pm 6:52 pm
Obama standing up against any world leader is a joke!!! But I’ll give him this he sure can bow low!!!!!!!!!!! LMAO
Posted by: lovingpolitics | May 17, 2009, 7:11 pm 7:11 pm
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realize Israel will strike Iran. Netanyahu promised as much before he became Prime Minister. We might not immediately back up Israel at the very beginning but if Iran strikes back and Russia helps defend them, we’ll have little choice but to join in.
Posted by: Justin | May 17, 2009, 7:48 pm 7:48 pm
At this point, it really looks like Israel is behaving much like the Palestinians – an irate mob with no ability to chart a path towards the future. And it has certainly been noticed that the only person to assassinate an Israeli prime minister was a radical Israeli – the type that is usually found in the settlements, ‘interacting’ with the Palestinians.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 17, 2009 6:26:03 PM
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Israel does not initiate conflict, they respond and defend themselves. How on earth can that be an irate mob.
If Palestinians (meaning Hamas) laid down their weapons, including stopping the almost daily Katyusha missile attacks… And the media did not report, and then forget to withdraw or correct the false planted stories, and staged photographs, instead of parroting their terrorist Hamas propaganda against Israel, and failing to report the assaults against it, we could deal with border issues.
Deal with security first, then we deal with borders.
If California had a border dispute with Washington do you think they would be supported for bombing them on a daily basis because of a border issue.
Hamas/Palestinians use children, civilians, schools etc as shields during battle then rail against Israel for not lying down and dying instead of fighting back and accidently killing innocents.
Hamas/Palestinians use homicide bombers that are children. They advocate this from the time they are toddlers, they were homicide bomber get-ups like halloween costumes and proudly photograph their little ones. They have TV shows advocating the death of all jews.
No one bothers to mention that Saddam Hussein offered every $25,000 dollars to the family of every suicide bomber as an incentive to attack Israel. Now Syria and Iran pay the terrorists.
No one mentions that the last time they ceded land the terrorists simply moved their bombs closer and continued the attack.
No one mentions that NEVER, EVER HAS ISRAEL ATTACKED WITHOUT PROVOCATION, While PALESTINIANS/HAMAS ATTACK DAILY and get upset when Israel fights back.
If Israel gives up more land before the security issue is settled it would be suicide.
Let’s also not forget that Obama has a flagrant anti-Israel/anti-semitic history, His church/self-described mentor Rev. Wright spewed this for 2 decades while Obama took it in. His close buddy Khaledi was honored at a dinner that was hailed as a “jew-bash’ attended by Obama, with Obama speaking and the tape is hidden by the LA Times, who clearly know how incendiary it would be.
Obama bows to the saudi king and so on and so on.
Nowhere in Obama’s history does he have a close association with ANYONE who is suppportive of Israel , until of course he need Rahm to help him overcome his history, which of coursed the press failed to report.
They send 30 teams of reporters to investigate Sarah Palin, but none to report on Obamas being raised as a child in Indonesia, an anti-semitic country and all of his Israel hating history.
Netanyahu will not lay down for this Israel hater Obama, nor should he.
Posted by: MNM | May 17, 2009, 7:59 pm 7:59 pm
MNM:”Israel does not initiate conflict, they respond and defend themselves. How on earth can that be an irate mob.”
Israel has occupied Palestinian land for over a generation with no exit plan nor conquest plan. Reacting violently and disproportionately to external attack is a text book characteristic of mob behavior – what do you think a lynch mob is? Or why do you think riot shields (a passive blocking tool) are used in lieu of nightsticks for successful mob control?
I understand Israel is a young country, but at some point the US is going to get sick of funding it aimless drift through adolescence. And make no mistake – if the US did not support Israel with billions of dollars and military support, they would fall within a few years. That is hardly the mark of a mature, sustainable country.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 17, 2009, 8:52 pm 8:52 pm
kim:”How is it that the Middle East is a millennium behind in social development? …how can you make that generalization for the entirety of the Middle East region?”
It is not a tightly held belief, but simply an observation that there are no other democratic societies down there and no other nation that contributes any intellectual capital to the world at large. The other nations are a bunch of strongmen who throw away half their intellectual capital through gender politics proven to be wasteful. I would be thrilled to be proven otherwise, but it hasn’t happened yet.
Which nation would you advance as an example of a modern society? Several have the facade of it, but when you are openly ruled by a king…
Posted by: jhw539 | May 17, 2009, 9:07 pm 9:07 pm
Why must our “democratic society” be a metric of development for other countries that are as geographicaly removed from the US as they are culturally distant? Nor am I sure about the present state of intellectual capital here, except to say there’s a dearth of math and science minds in this counrty which has required importation from the East and yes, the Middle East. I just prefer that the world remain as heterogenous as possible, without the imposition of European and American based standards. I guess I’m an antiquarian.
Posted by: kim | May 17, 2009, 9:50 pm 9:50 pm
Several have the facade of it, but when you are openly ruled by a king…
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Lebanon and Turkey are two nations I’m aware of that aren’t a monarchy; I’m sure there’s more. Then you have the constitutional monarchies, like Morrocco and formerly Spain, which was ruled by a king until the 1960′s or early seventies.
Posted by: kim | May 17, 2009, 10:03 pm 10:03 pm
FYI- Spain is still a constitutional monarchy!
Posted by: kim | May 17, 2009, 10:05 pm 10:05 pm
MNM-You are quite interesting…
You state:
“His church/self-described mentor Rev. Wright spewed this for 2 decades while Obama took it in. ”
I find this amusing your referencing Obama’s christian church & now complaining about that since just a few days ago you were on here advancing the ridiculous 57 state gaffe as a conspiracy theory. Your conspiracy theory premise that day was that it was not a gaffe and that Obama slipped up when speaking to the crowd in Oregon since he is so tied to the 57 state (it’s really 60, but who’s counting?) Islamic Conference implying Obama is a shhhh…. secret Muslim.
Was Obama in his Christian church as a secret muslim wearing his Acorn shirt?
Posted by: Get Real | May 17, 2009, 10:33 pm 10:33 pm
IT would be nice if the whitehouse could sanction a blog like this for Americans only.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 17, 2009, 10:54 pm 10:54 pm
MNM wrote:
`Israel opposes the 2 state solution now because they would be at even greater risk. Look at a map the borders would be even more exposed than they are now.
Solve the security issues, then we can talk about a two state solution.`
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those is AIPAC talking points and are some of the many excuses to steal Palestinian lands.
Israel: because we think we are in danger we wont give Palestinians back their land. Rather we will continue to build more houses on them for Zionists from eastern europe.
Now the whole world believes the two-state solution is the only way forward and Bibi rejecting it will only reaffirm their desire to steal more lands. Give them back their land and the security issue will solve itself. You cannot steal somebody`s land and expect them to be smiling at you.
Posted by: Brian | May 17, 2009, 10:59 pm 10:59 pm
“Who wants to go from a nation to a state? But then there’s the opposite of that- like states wanting to be a nation. But let us not go there and discuss Governor Rick Perry.”
Amber-It’s clear from your remarks that a prevailing sentiment of Israeli interests is 1)That to become ‘part’ of the United States would be a disgrace for Israelis and 2)That it is an offense to Israel for the States of these Unites States to exercise their constitutional independance. I think I have gleaned these sentiments correctly, and they are alarming to me.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 17, 2009, 11:05 pm 11:05 pm
kim:”Lebanon and Turkey are two nations I’m aware of that aren’t a monarchy; I’m sure there’s more. ”
I’ll grant Turkey as an impressively modern country; with it’s legitimate angling to join the EU I have begun to think of it more as part of Europe and overlooked it.
Lebanon was a good example of a modern nation in the Middle East, until it became a battlefield for the throwback hatreds that invest that area.
“Why must our “democratic society” be a metric of development for other countries that are as geographicaly removed from the US as they are culturally distant?”
The ONLY alternative to a democratic society is subjection of the majority by a minority. There are many forms a democratic society can take, but I am unfamiliar with any that offer the same level of stability and general welfare.
Posted by: jhw539 | May 17, 2009, 11:11 pm 11:11 pm
I believe there is enough of a sense of goodwill towards Israel to make some kind of annex or statehood with some changes to the Israeli system and borders and to thereby guarantee Israel perpetual security. Any population pressure could probably be absorbed. The alternative is to figure out on your own how to make peace with the Palestinians, or to bomb Iran in hopes of starting a war for which you might get some funding, but no soldiers and little else. Soon enough and your support will go no further than some parts of New York. You have no friends in the rest of the world, and your goodwill here is running out. If you bomb Iran, your goodwill here will be gone.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 17, 2009, 11:18 pm 11:18 pm
Posted by: Thinking | May 17, 2009 2:14:53 PM – “Who does control our foriegn policy? I have often wondered.” —-The US foreign policy is decided in a place called Knesset and the control is maintained by organizations like CFR, AIPAC, JINSA etc. Basically, the owners of the US are the ones who has control over hers foreign policy.
Posted by: Rafael | May 17, 2009, 11:22 pm 11:22 pm
Iran has never attacked any country before. However America has attacked Iran twice through Saddam. If you think they are fools and would not be preparing for an attack by Israel you must be naive.
Iran is not Iraq so that will be a tougher war. They have long range missiles that can reach Tel Aviv and the Green zone in Iraq. They have a population of 75 million. They produce a lot of oil too. Attacking them is much more complicated than neo-cons think.
Posted by: Brian | May 17, 2009, 11:23 pm 11:23 pm
MNM – Did you forget with all your right wing talking points and conspiracy theories that McCain once chaired an organization that gave $500,000 to Khalidi’s Center for Palestine Research and Studies?
Posted by: Get Real | May 18, 2009, 12:26 am 12:26 am
Get Real- I wouldn’t call MNM’s comments right wing talking points.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 18, 2009, 12:44 am 12:44 am
The ONLY alternative to a democratic society is subjection of the majority by a minority.
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There is more to the array of existing world governments than either the tyranny of a few or democracy. And neither governmental or economic systems are fixed; they’re subject to change like everything else. Sorry, but democracy just isn’t the one and only system of governing that can work, nor does it come with any guarantee that it will be around forever.
Posted by: kim | May 18, 2009, 12:54 am 12:54 am
Kim- The ability to enter into and enforce written contracts and to keep written records is the single greatest difference between civilized and uncivilized people, I think.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 18, 2009, 1:29 am 1:29 am
Israel is at fault in this conflict. Who displaced who? Who is encroaching on whose lands? Who has killed the most people? Who makes sure the other side goes without water, electric, medicine, and food? If you answered the Israelis, you’re right. I’m an American, but I’ve lived there, have you?
Posted by: been there | May 18, 2009, 7:39 am 7:39 am
been there- America is fast growing out of the blame game. We all know there are many players over there, not just Israel and Palestinians. Most evident at work is a large political body of european communist idealogues, who believe Israel is the world’s staunchest opponent to communism, which is almost true.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 18, 2009, 8:15 am 8:15 am
It’s also clear that Hamas is an antagonist.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 18, 2009, 8:17 am 8:17 am
Or that they have been exploiting the weakness of their position for strategic advantage. That is a brilliant war tactic for the under-advantaged, which causes our sympathy to go to the under-dog, not on account of their rightousness, but for admiration of their tactics and sympathy for their disadvantage. That the children make war courageously right along with the parents could well be considered a different form of government, and difficult to comprehend.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 18, 2009, 8:25 am 8:25 am
I like to think that people are important (and I’m not an Obama supporter) and they deserve basic human rights, food, shelter etc.
I am certain that not all of the people in Gaza City want Hamas there.. they want to do what we do.. care for their kids, have a job, live a better life..
Why can’t we separate the civilians in the Middle East and North Korea from their militant governments? I mean.. treat them as humans.
Posted by: DontGet818OnMeNow | May 18, 2009, 8:38 am 8:38 am
Get Real- I wouldn’t call MNM’s comments right wing talking points.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 18, 2009 12:44:29 AM
okay – just conspiracy theories. Sorry – sometimes it’s difficult to differentiate between the two anymore..
Posted by: Get Real | May 18, 2009, 8:47 am 8:47 am
Kim- The ability to enter into and enforce written contracts and to keep written records is the single greatest difference between civilized and uncivilized people, I think.
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Not necessarily. The US constitution was modeled from the Iroquois Confederacy’s Great Law of Peace, which interestingly enough, was represented by the eagle. They had no written language per se.
Posted by: kim | May 18, 2009, 9:56 am 9:56 am
Using written contracts to force the Iroquois out of our cul-de-sac is the true sign of a civilized people – unless they have a 20% downpayment..
Posted by: DontGet818OnMeNow | May 18, 2009, 12:09 pm 12:09 pm
Using the traditional analytical methods of the reality-based community, must we not conclude that Mr. Obama is an anti-Semite?
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | May 18, 2009, 12:35 pm 12:35 pm
History is countless examples of the principle, and fodder for endless academic discussion. But it cannot be denied that wherever people expect to bargain without writing their terms, they are considered uncivilized. Again, if people enter into contracts without the means to inforce them in case of violation or default, they are considered to be the loosing, uncivilized party (that’s why people think of the exploits of the native american peoples to be the exploits of an uncivilized people, even if they lament the injustices. That’s also why there is a strong sense of the right to bear arms where we have the power to effect changes in the government). Finally, a party that relies on force alone, without considering and honoring written and reasonable contracts is thought to be uncivil, even if they are the victors.
Posted by: MarkLeavenworth | May 18, 2009, 12:38 pm 12:38 pm
F Hyena..
He’s not an anti-Semite when campaigning in South Florida.
Posted by: DontGet818OnMeNow | May 18, 2009, 12:41 pm 12:41 pm
“Using the traditional analytical methods of the reality-based community…”
So you’re not talking about right-wing fantasy land.
Posted by: Skip | May 18, 2009, 1:09 pm 1:09 pm
Sigmonde | May 17, 2009 2:05:39 PM
Sigmonde, if Israel can drop a bomb down a smokestack of a (developing)nuclear plant in Syria why can’t they with Iran? if my memory serves me there was absolutely minimal loss of life in Syria.
Posted by: Paul Wall | May 18, 2009, 1:38 pm 1:38 pm