Terrorism: Front and Center

Once again Cheney is breaking precedent, first with his actions as vice-president where he was given way too much power and influence and now as a former vice-president, speaking out publicly about the serving president’s policies.
In my opinion, the government should investigate and prosecute those who ordered and approved torture. This is why Cheney is being so vocal about the topic of terrorism. It is like when one plays chess, a winning plan is to keep attacking so one’s opponent has to keep reacting and staying on the defensive.
Cheney is hoping to keep the focus on fear, fear of terrorism, so no one looks into the Bush administrations history to find actions that were illegal.

“I doubt Obama will be torturing people ”
What is more important – the use of enhanced interrogation techniques such as waterboarding to prevent the possible deaths of Americans, or not using enhanced interrogation and risking the deaths of Americans (possibly 1000′s).?

VP Cheney GETS RESULTS! After today, barry will follow Cheney’s instructions…to the letter! Barry should dump biden and beg Cheney to join him! Cheney is a REAL American who cares about America! :))))

The real estate where detainees are held will become irrelevant if we resolve the political/legal issues.
Everyone is forgetting the fundamental reason we are in this spot.
In past wars when the war was over, prisoners were released and everyone went home.
For the terrorists the war is never over, even if the battle is done. They will go back and pick up their arms and begin again.
WE are in new territory and need new solutions. In the past dems used politics to castigate Bush instead of offering solutions or contributing to the discussion.
It sounds like Obama is going to present a plan for a court that allows “preventative indefinite detention”
The same thing Bush wanted but was blocked by the hateful political climate.
In this new type of war we are in we need these new solutions.
If this is what Obama does I am behind that decision 100%.

The enhanced interrogation option is alive and well at Bagram airforce base in afghanistan.
Whether or not it is actively in use is a secret.
Given Obama’s tack to the right on these issues I am guessing if he had to choose whether another 3000 citizens die on his watch, on US soil, he might consider a bit of enhanced interrogation, if only to serve himself. He is never squeamish about doing what it takes to promote and help himself.

Renaming Guantanamo to a more enemy friendly name like Camp Virgin Paradise would allow more appropriate political correctness for Obama’s supporters, save a lot of money for taxpayers, and keep the beasts off our soil. Problem solved.

POTUS might want to take a quick read of the gnarly parchment.. since he’s in the area.

Cheney is doing a Dr. Strangelove routine.. the only problem is.. he sounds credible. So far as his content?

Too bad Cheney won’t be at the Natl. Archives. POTUS could point out the US Constitution to him, since Cheney has obviously never read it or seen it.

Preventive Detention…. Camps similar to what FDR did in the US?
Would those camps have room for political dissidents?

The Limbaugh-Lovers that are screaming about the president’s plan to close Gitmo conveniently overlook the fact that Bush already relocated over 500 of the detainees to other countries and prisons.

For those that doubt this I include the clause in the constitution below. Obama altered the rights of the auto company investors, after the contracts were set. It is plainly unconstitutional. He did it with threats and intimidation and luckily for the prosecutors he made some intimidating statements on TV. So he makes it easy to prove, once he is out of office.
The Contract Clause appears in the United States Constitution, Article I, section 10, clause 1. It states:
“ No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. ”

The Limbaugh-Lovers that are screaming about the president’s plan to close Gitmo conveniently overlook the fact that Bush already relocated over 500 of the detainees to other countries and prisons.
Posted by: Waterboard All Conservative Whack-Jobs | May 21, 2009 10:06:46 AM

Since I served in the military from Clinton through Bush, I can tell you with utmost certainty your are wrong about the “militarly” bit. In 1999, my squadron was 2 months from going on deployment. The spare parts situation was so bad that we had 1 flyable aircraft out of 12. Funding was abysmal. We were running out of fuel by the end of the Fiscal Year. Things were good up until this summer. I no longer fly but a friend of mine I work with just told me that he cannot report to his squadron because there is no PCS money (thats money to move you to another location). Instead of a report date in June, he is to report next fiscal year, in December. He also told me that right now, out on the aircraft carrier, the money situation is so bad that pilots are lucky to fly 3 times a week. That’s not enough to keep up your night time landing qualification on the aircraft carrier. When I was out to sea, I was flying twice a day in 2001-02.
So spare me your ignorance.
Posted by: KR | May 21, 2009 10:09:20 AM
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Yes, thank you. This by the way is one of the reasons Clinton left a surplus, even though we were in a downturn.
Dems love to claim it was the tax increase but in fact it was the unsustainable cuts and delays in military spending that accounted for the surplus.

“do you not realize that you just made my case for me? By the way, I am a vet as well.”
How did I make your case? The military got much better under Bush with increased funding and updating of equipment, some of which have been flying since the 1950′s. The Super Hornet (I flew F/A-18C’s) has come online and the F-14, which was slated for a 2010 retire under Clinton was retired in 2006 under Bush.
So I have no idea how I made your case.

KR: do you not realize that you just made my case for me? By the way, I am a vet as well.
Posted by: Waterboard All Conservative Whack-Jobs | May 21, 2009 10:15:24 AM
——–
The only case he made was that dems underfund the military religiously. They know when they raise taxes they kill the economy and use cuts in military funding to make up for their stupidity, compounding their ignorance decision after decision.
Dems in congress refused to forward funding bills to Bush. In fact, in an unprecedented manner that the taxpayers were forced to bend over yet again for,
Pelosi refused to put together a budget for 2009 until Bush was out of office.
This has never happened between administrations before, but allowed another MASSIVE SPENDING PORK FILLED bill to go by that of course Obama signed thousands of earmarks and all.

So Cheney announces a speech 2 weeks ago, the subject to be national security.
Stutters McSpendypants hears about it, and spastically schedules his own biggerer and more betterer speech about national security- with the constitution as a prop even! (The speech was short notice, so apparently the styrofoam pillars weren’t available….)
What a pathetic, spineless joke of a president.
Posted by: 2Brixshy | May 21, 2009 10:24:14

We DID get sold a bill of goods on Iraq and many young Americans came home in boxes or horribly maimed because of a war that did not need to happen. Afghanistan is where we need to focus our military. The Taliban and Al Queda are the enemy. The current president realizes this.

“I am agreeing with you that Gitmo was the new solution, and all the rest of your statement.”
I’ve put up 14 years in the military. I speak from a position of experience. Do you know why the military has manning issues? It’s not because of recruitment. It goes back to the massive draw down of 1993. The maximum number of active duty billets (or jobs) in the military was cut by 50% yet the administration at the time held the military to the same requirements. By 1998, readiness of our military had dropped so low that congress had a special session on it. To the credit of the previous administration, they added peacemeal funding for 1999 but it wasn’t enough. To give you some perspective…
Defense budget in 1992, the last year of Bush Sr., was around 620 Billion.
In 1994, the defense budget was 300 Billion.
By 2000, the defense budget was…310 Billion.
GW Bush raised it to 420 Billion in 2001.
Last year, the budget was 570 Billion.
I haven’t seen the latest budget, but rumor is its been slashed to 470 Billion and rumors abound that next year it will be even less (something like 400 static).
So, theres my put up, wheres your shut up.

oops, my post below was a reply to..
“I am sick of this argument, the GOP under-mans it, as does most of the population. It seems it is always someone else’s fight.
Put up, or shut u p.”
Not the GITMO peice. Bad copy.

Whatever people think about Jesse Ventura in later life, he was a Navy Seal. He underwent waterboarding. He said that people being waterboarded will confess to anything to make it stop. He has no confidence in learning anything useful because of waterboarding. He even said that if he had Cheney for one hour of waterboarding, he could get Cheney to confess to the Sharon Tate murders.

This is the most ugly, nasty speech a president has ever given.
Even I am shocked at the depths of the attack on Bush-Cheney by Obama.
He is slimy and low and it is embarrassing to watch a President, even a democrat one behave in such an ugly ugly way.
I am dumbfounded by his self serving, petulant is too mild, anti-american rantings.
This guy needs to resign and go now. He is the lowest form of life on the planet.

“What will Obama say if that tragedy occurs with 1000′s of deaths that could have possibly been prevented by gaining this information? What will you say?”
It’s Bush’s / Cheney’s fault.

“He said that people being waterboarded will confess to anything to make it stop.”
The little thing your leaving out is the information those combatants gave led to real people, who had real connections to AQ and that combatant. So it would appear that at least some of what they said was truthful enough. If the information was bogus, I’m sure the democrats would have shared that little tidbit of information well before now.

Oh my god. He is still speaking in a nasty , angry, vituperative, self serving, arrogant, holier than thou manner.
This is a train wreck but I can’t look away.
His horrible character is front and center.
He could put forth his plan and why but he is taking shot after shot, unfairly and inaccurately so, to the point that it is staggering.
This is unprecedented for a President to behave in such a self serving, don’t question me, petulant manner.
Someone tell him to shut up now.

“You will witness a psychotic, megalomaniac unleashed in anger.”
I think he is narcassistic to a clinical level. I was waiting for the day when he experienced true rejection. I don’t have a TV nearby but based on your reaction, that narcassism is showing through now.

The horrific, unspeakable nature and quality of this speech will be spun by the mainstream media to put Obama in the best light.
I only hope enough people actually watched it and will be able to counter the spin.
He is calming down now because he is talking about himself, that always makes him happier, although his anger is not gone yet.

Wow, his speech is all about pointing fingers at the same time he critcizes it.

Wow, his speech is all about pointing fingers at the same time he critcizes it.
Posted by: KR | May 21, 2009 11:12:42 AM
—-
If you are picking this up late in the speech you will need to get a tape of what you missed, because he was something else.

Oh my god. He is still speaking in a nasty , angry, vituperative, self serving, arrogant, holier than thou manner.
This is a train wreck but I can’t look away.
His horrible character is front and center.
****************************************************
That’s certainly a disrespectful way to talk about a former vice president.

At what point will he STOP blaming Bush for everything going on? 1 year? 2? It’s beyond tiresome.

” But don’t try to make the connection that Iraq was a part of the war on terror from day one. That is just not true.”
Never did say that, what I said was, given our comfortable view of 20/20 hindsight, was the war necessary? Lets look at the results instead of the prologue.

“This was the main reason we were told that we needed to go to Iraq.”
Really? Perhaps at this point it would be appropriate to review a few of the reasons cited by the US Congress (75% of which voted for the war) in the October, 2002 Authorization for the Use of Military Force:
“Iraq’s noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 cease fire, including interference with weapons inspectors.
“Iraq’s ‘brutal repression of its civilian population.’
“Iraq’s hostility towards the United States as demonstrated by the alleged 1993 assassination attempt of former President George H. W. Bush, and firing on coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones following the 1991 Gulf War.
“Members of al-Qaeda, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq.
“Iraq’s ‘continu[ing] to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations,’ including anti-United States terrorist organizations.”
Citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, the resolution reiterated that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam Hussein regime and promote a democratic replacement.

“It will likely take that long to fix the awful mess Bush/Cheney created.”
Really? What is broke and what is he doing to fix it? The only thing I’ve seen him “fix” has been groveling apologetically to foreign nations so they love us again. Closing GITMO is part of that.

Where was it stated that WMDs were the ONLY reason for going to Iraq?

I would estimate that he will stop blaming Bush in another couple years. It will likely take that long to fix the awful mess Bush/Cheney created.
============
No president comes to office with a clean slate. Clinton inherited post-Gulf War Iraq from Bush 41. Bush inherited failing sanction program against well-known threat Saddam Hussein from Clinton, as well as increasing alQaeda attacks.
They didn’t point fingers. They dealt with what was on their plate, because that’s what the job is.

Lizzie: I would estimate that he will stop blaming Bush in another couple years. It will likely take that long to fix the awful mess Bush/Cheney created.
*******************************************************
I respectfully disagree. I don’t see how a mere two years is adequate in cleaning up the horrendous mess left behind.

Where was it stated that WMDs were the ONLY reason for going to Iraq?
Posted by: EdDoc80 | May 21, 20
————
It was one of the reasons, and Bush, in his State of the Union that year told us not that they had weapons in existence but that it was a gathering threat and we needed to act.
In fact 2 tons of yellow cake uranium were finally removed from Iraq last year. It was not deemed safe to move it before then. Of course the media did buried this story.
People need to review that state of the union, and watch the dems stand and applaude those lines because they saw the intelligence and supported the actions too until it became unpopular.
Obama is a classless empty suit. He has nothing left after this speech. No credibility except among his radical base will remain.

“…appeasing their far left looney base.”
I’m starting to think its not appeasement anymore, they themselves are “far left looney” to the point they actually believe the dribble they are spewing.

Republicans just have to be SOOOOOOO proud and happy that Cheney is out front and attacking the way he is.

Mr. Obama has now adopted the very wise Bush policies concerning the Patriot Act, indefinite detention, military tribunals, warrantless intercepts, staying in Iraq as long as necessary, and “torture” as a crime requiring specific intent. I’d say Mr. Bush has been thoroughly vindicated by Mr. Obama, and the nation should be assured by that fact.
Hell, now he’s even argued that the Plame lawsuit should be thrown out.
================================
Facist Hyena, those actions do speak more loudly than any rhetoric or speech.

Quit using my name, I just got here,
besides Bush/Chaney could not clean up the mess Clinton left, so what makes you think Pres. Obama can do it now????

Poor Cheney. No wonder he is so angry all the time. His Haliburton money is drying up as the Iraq war winds down.

Sen. McCain underwent much more severe torture than waterboarding, and even he has said that waterboarding clearly is torture and ought not to be done. That is more than good enough for me.

Why is it that Republicans who defend waterboarding are seemingly so quick to throw their 2008 standard bearer, Sen. McCain, under the bus when it comes to the issue of torture?

Lizzie: and Ike was not able to clean up the mess that Truman left either. LOL

“Why is it that Republicans who defend waterboarding are seemingly so quick to throw their 2008 standard bearer, Sen. McCain, under the bus when it comes to the issue of torture?”
A luxery position he could take by not being on the intelligence comittee, and thus, not involved in the review process of waterboarding (now deemed torture, but not so while under review). All of you torture mongers should keep one thing in mind anytime you pull that card, both democrats and republicans in congress intel committees reviewed the process before it took place. So it wasn’t considered “torture” until an election year and used as leverage.

The president was terribly defensive today. Peevish and petulant. Decidedly un-presidential.
He also seems somewhat confused. Gitmo a terrorist recruiting device? How many attacks on US soil since Gitmo opened?

I agree with Cheney, Declassify ALL memos pertaining to waterboarding and there results and let the people decide who was right and who is wrong…Come on Obama keep your campaign promises…”unprecedented” level of transparency…What are the Dems afraid of…

Obama acted as he often does when faced with criticism from all sides.
He mocks, blames, gets defensive and defiant.
Obama’s lack of leadership and his personal agenda threatens not only our economy but our national security.
America is screwed.

After Watching Both Speeches today I feel Much safer With President Obama then that Lying law Breaking Constitution Nut case Cheney all he does Is fuel the Terriost and He claims The Bush Adm Kept us safe Really? 911 HAPPENED ON THEIR WATCH! So they Know they FAILED IN KEEPING US SAFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FALIURES

FEAR MONGERING=THATS WHAT REPUBLICANS DO BEST!

If Gitmo is a recruiting tool, what is Bagram?

facist
I REPEAT 911 HAPPENED AMERICANS DIED ON BUSH/CHENEY WATCH THEY FAILED 911 HAPPENED WHILE BUSH WAS PRESIDENT THAT IS NOT KEEPING US SAFE!

Obama was grumpy today.
He tossed the left a bone by releasing top secrets but they want the photos.
His charm wasn’t enough to get allies to take detainees.
No money to close GITMO–even fellow Democrats voted against it.
Obama was tooting his own horn today
maybe to make his damaged ego feel better.

Should anyone who either executed or ordered waterboarding be subject to prosecution?

Obama tries to blame absolutely everything on the Bush Administration.
As Cheney said today the decisions made after 9/11 were bipartisan decisions with the consent of Congress.

“I took an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution as Commander-in-Chief, and as a citizen, I know that we must never – ever – turn our back on its enduring principles for expedience sake.”
I found it very ironic that as he was making this remark the Constitution was literally behind him and his podium. Very ironic (and perhaps telling?), indeed…

@ Posted by: Fascist Hyena | May 21, 2009 12:49:11 PM
You hijacked my mousetrap! :^)

“Nice to see that the FBI stopped a terrorist attack in NYC.”
Apparently three of them were recruited during stays in our prison system. No word on whether the fourth was recruited by gitmo.
Posted by: Foghorn Leghorn | May 21, 2009 12:40:34 PM
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In fact they were converted to that peaceful religion and became muslims as part of their recruitment into terrorism.
Our prisons are filled with people who are ripe for the plucking for this.
So what a fabulous plan it would be to put the worst terrorists, the ones who managed cells and made and executed plans, smack dab in with the most likely group to join up.
Another intelligent and wise decision by Obama.
This guy really is on another planet.

Let’s look at the fifth paragraph from POTUS speech today….
“For the first time since 2002, we are providing the necessary resources and strategic direction to take the fight to the extremists who attacked us on 9/11 in Afghanistan and Pakistan.”
by copying the Iraq surge strategy.
“We are investing in the 21st century military and intelligence capabilities that will allow us to stay one step ahead of a nimble enemy.”
by cutting the defense budget
“We have re-energized a global non-proliferation regime to deny the world’s most dangerous people access to the world’s deadliest weapons, and launched an effort to secure all loose nuclear materials within four years.”
Iran.
“We are better protecting our border, and increasing our preparedness for any future attack or natural disaster.”
by canceling plans to build more fencing along the southern border
” We are building new partnerships around the world to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat al Qaeda and its affiliates.”
with who? Hamas?
“And we have renewed American diplomacy so that we once again have the strength and standing to truly lead the world.”
Who’s following?
I didn’t see the speech. How long was his nose by the end?

FACISIT SAYS
They Inheriated the Plot From Clinton/Gore Clinton Warned Bush Of Bin Ladens Threat what did Bush do to Stop it? Bush had about 8-9 Months to stop it

Why doesn’t Sen. Feinstein advocate taking the ‘detainees’ to California prisons?
After all, Senator, what is a few hundred compared to the hundreds of thousands incarcerated there now?

“Should anyone who either executed or ordered waterboarding be subject to prosecution?”
No. The procedure was vetted by congress before it was put into practice. I doubt this congress is going to throw their own under the bus, though there are rumblings they might throw Pelosi under the bus. I’d much rather she stay as a shining example of the Democratic party.

I say send the Gitmo prisoners to some of our maximum security prisons. Look at what happens to pedophiles and rapists when they are put in maximum security prisons with other criminals. They get “taken care of” by the inmates in their own sense of justice.

KR
re: ‘but we all do know ‘
we all knew:
- the oil fields in Kuwait would burn for years
- that Hillary Clinton would be elected president
- that Iraq had WMD’s
- that there was a ‘connection’ between Iraq & Al Queda
- that America does not abuse or torture prisoners
- Republicans are fiscally conservative
- Dems & Repubs tell the truth all the time
There are so many ‘experts’ on TV and cable…
they all ‘know’, they’re usually very wrong and like nearly everyone else have paid agendas to preach.

“No. The procedure was vetted by congress before it was put into practice. I doubt this congress is going to throw their own under the bus,”
I agree. But in their blind hate for Bush/Cheney, Libs believe that Dems had absoulutely nothing to do with approval of EIT at Gitmo.
“…though there are rumblings they might throw Pelosi under the bus. I’d much rather she stay as a shining example of the Democratic party.”
Agree on this point as well. The way I see it, it’s a win-win. If she stays, she will lead with less credibility and will be poster-child for lib buffoonery and self-preservation. If she resigns Speakership, then surrounding publicity will help the disengaged public see Dem leadership for what it is.

Cheney repeated the lie that there was a connection between Iraq and Al Queda, as well as implying that taxpayers are somehow not already paying for Gitmo.

I heard about something in the WSJ that an lone analyst is disagreeing with this. He is predicting that later this year is when inflation will begin to rise and scare investors. His point, which makes sense, is inflation negatively impacts all markets and thus, will impact growth. He predicts the worst is yet to come. I’m not a doom and gloom guy, but we all do know inflation is coming and it makes sense that the markets will suffer for it.
Posted by: KR | May 21, 2009 1:56:11 PM
——–
Already, in a very short time Obama’s estimates for deficit and debt are known to be grossly understated.
Today everyone was “surprised” that unemployment went up so much, yet again. The dem media must believe their collective effort and “hope” that Obama will help the economy improve is enough for it to do so.
How dare the economic numbers not rise and support Obama.
Obama is off, deliberately or otherwise, by over 25% on debt and deficit, and it is less than four months.
He plans more major programs,
joblessness will grow because we all see the taxes coming at us in the near future.
Raising taxes is inversely proportional to job creation and growth.
One goes up, the other goes down. Taxes go up, available jobs go down. Taxes go down, the number employed go up.
Obama prefers high taxes and increasing unemployment numbers.
The key is that he is inserting those tax dollars and the spending directly into the pockets of his political supporters, special attention to the unions UAW, SEIU, radical environmentalists, and those that will benefit from cap and tax, and healthcare reform like GE.
GE who supports cap and tax, owns NBC and MSNBC, the latter has run at a loss as a political arm to support Obama who will undoubtedly pay GE back with contracts specifically to computerize medical records and in selection by the heralded “government committee on approved hospital equiptment purchases”
Obama wins every way you look at it. His political supporter/special interest groups are reaping billions and the public is bending over as
-Joblessness skyrockets to historic levels
-we go into unsustainable debt
-Cap and trade will increase expenses per family $1800-3000
-Health care will be rationed, premiums will be no less than private health insurance and we will lose the quality health care we enjoy now
-new auto manufacture regulations will increase the cost of a new auto between 1600 – 7000 dollars per car depending who you believe.
-Our needs for social services will skyrocket to pay for all the unemployed and the associated expenses
-the list goes on with earmarks galore
-TAX RATES FOR EVERYONE WILL NECESSARILY RISE AND OUR QUALITY OF LIFE WILL DETERIORATE.
This is Obama’s definition of FAIR????

Bush/Cheney saved more lives in NYC.
Because of the changes they made after 9/11.
The terrorist plot that was busted up yesterday had FBI informants onto then a year ago.
We should be so lucky under Obama who stabs the CIA in the back by releasing Top Secret info–and by backing Pelosi.

Obama doesn’t know how to keep us safe.
Not from terrorist or on the highway-wanting us to drive his expensive tin cans.
And at some point the Obama administration will try to control the way we protect our own homes–gun control.
We will see who is sitting in the WH in 2012 if BO tries to take away guns and pickup trucks.

“There are so many ‘experts’ on TV and cable…
they all ‘know’, they’re usually very wrong and like nearly everyone else have paid agendas to preach.”
I think this is in regards to my statement on inflation adversly affecting the economy. I don’t think you need an experts opinion on that, only to pick up a history book. If you don’t know how inflation negatively impacts the economy, research the economy from 1978-1982 when inflation was out of control and interest rates peaked at 21%.

MNM
Cheney said in his speech today there was a connection between Iraq and Al Queda…. true or false?
Posted by: V | May 21, 2009 3:06:01 PM
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You of course misquote.
He did connect him to terrorists however and that is indeed documented and true.
One example and I don’t have time to list them all ,
Saddam had a program to pay the families of Hamas Homicide bombers (read TERRORISTS- GET IT) $25,000 apiece, which for them is huge.

MNM
Why Did Cheney Say in his Speech the Wmds in Iraq? Where are they?

“Cheney said in his speech today there was a connection between Iraq and Al Queda…. true or false?”
Al Zarqaui was in a hospital in Bahgdad getting treatment for wounds he sustained in Afghanistan. So depends on how you define connections. Was Saddam talking with AQ and coordinating with them? No I don’t believe so. Was he ignoring AQ inside his country? Definately yes. Some were worried a relationship could be established. It is also fact that Saddam was encouraging suicide bombings of Palistinians against Israel, offering to give the families of suicide bombers money to pay homage for their sacrifice. So there is no doubt Saddam was supporting terror tactics with the Palistinians. Was it a stretch to think that he would extend support to AQ who was attacking the US? I guess we’ll never know and that is a good thing.

Good post MNM, I predict though that there will be no response, and if there is it will be a shifting of the subject.
It is unfortunate that people can be swayed to believe something so passionately based on so little information.

“The terrorist plot that was busted up yesterday had FBI informants onto then a year ago.”
==========
You really don’t get it do you?? What happened in NYC proved Obama’s point, not Cheney’s. The terrorist plot was foiled by good ol’ fashioned police undercover and intelligence work. Not by snatching somebody up into a secret room to waterboard the suspects 83 times or more. What do you know folks, our regular justice system works and they will soon in all likelyhood be thrown into a maximum security prison–where guess what “0″ inmates have escaped.

“Cheney rightly critizes the release of the memos detailing the methods and means of obtaining information via interrogation. As he puts it, it is now a huge insert in the terrorist training manual.”
Then Cheney is a moron as most of these techniques have been discussed for years.
What Cheney does not like is that concrete proof came out torpedoing the Bush admin’s craven denials of their responsibility.
“Of course Obama does not release the results, which prove the positive results, saving thousands of lives.”
Because that what you were told so by the Bush admin?
The same one’s who told us that not only did Saddam have WMDs but we knew that where they were, that we would be greeted as liberators, that major combat operations were done etc.

“Saddam had a program to pay the families of Hamas Homicide bombers (read TERRORISTS- GET IT) $25,000 apiece, which for them is huge.”
Saddam Hussein has distributed $260,000 to 26 families of Palestinians killed in 29 months of fighting with Israel, including a $10,000 check to the family of a Hamas suicide bomber.
The money — handed out by the Arab Liberation Front, which is affiliated with Saddam’s Baath Party — was distributed as the United States tried to get U.N. Security Council support to use military force to disarm Iraq and oust Saddam, who the United States says supports terrorism.
Among the families receiving checks from Saddam’s charity were those whose children and relatives were killed in Islamic Jihad and Hamas attacks. Both groups are on the U.S. State Department list of terrorist organizations. Other families had relatives killed during Israeli raids on Palestinian towns and refugee camps.
Iraq gives $10,000 to the families of those killed within 30 days of death. In total, Saddam has given more than $35 million to West Bank and Gaza Strip families of Palestinians killed during the fighting, said Ibrahim Zanen, spokesman for the Arab Liberation Front in Gaza. Initially, families of suicide bombers received $25,000 from Saddam, but now everyone receives an equal $10,000
For that support of terrorism and zero connection to Al Queda, we invaded Iraq and some 100,000 Iraqi civilians were killed.

“For that support of terrorism and zero connection to Al Queda, we invaded Iraq and some 100,000 Iraqi civilians were killed.”
You obviously didn’t read the post in its entirety before you decided to post a reply.

MNM
so Bush and Cheney preemptively attacked Iraq, and committed our forces because of Hamas?
all that talk about the Iraqi WMD’s and the ‘mushroom cloud’ was Hamas?
Bush & Cheney said Iraq was ‘THE’ threat to America, you can couch the phrases and way you want….. history is history and it’s well documented.
re: “The with-holding of that information is purely political as it supports the enhanced interrogation efforts and undermines Obama’s claim that no useful information is obtained,
so, you know that for a fact?
declare an ‘orange alert’ and pass the duct tape and plastic.
America has supported all sorts on nasty folks in South America over the years…

” I’m saying normal intelligence gathering, whether it be thru covert means that the CIA uses or undercover by FBI has a far better track record then torture. Are you disputing this?”
Yes I will dispute this because you assume we torture. I will aslo dispute that intelligence is something you can stick in a court room. Do you have any realization why things are secret? Because the people who provided that information, foreign nationals or operatives, are at risk if that information is exposed. They could end up dead through logical deduction or alerting the enemy that there is an informant. So your not going to throw that kind if information around in court. Also, the vast majority if the combatants picked up overseas were apprehended in combat conditions, thus no sloothing around for evidence and forensics that would hold up in our courts. In a combat zone, if you raid a house and there are explosives in it, they are assumed guilty in war. In our courts, a further burden of proof is required. That is circumstantial evidence. The military doesn’t have time to run around and prove their intent or wait to catch them red handed. You take them out. So your mixing and blending two totally different situations.
“I know you’d be just as outraged as any of us would be if any other country waterboarded a captured U.S. national or one of our troops no matter what the justification.”
I served 14 years in the US Navy. I was a pilot. Saddam did horrible things to our downed aviators in Iraq. Trust me, I was far closer to this than you are. I went through SEER school training. I know what it is. Waterboarding would be kids games compared to what our aviators went through in Iraq. When I was a young flyer, one of the downed pilots briefed us on the torture he went through. He was electricuted through his groin, strung up by his feet and the bottoms of his feet beaten with a bat.
What you do not realize is that very few nations in the world would NOT use REAL torture to a US service member. As a service member myself, we came to grips with that and understood it would happen.