The Note, 5/20/2009: The Setback — Congress asserts independence; Gingrich takes fight to Pelosi
By RICK KLEIN For those setting the Obama-as-Spock meme, a lesson that everyone’s favorite Vulcan learned a long time ago: Just because it’s logical, doesn’t make it so. Nobody goes undefeated in this town — fair enough. But there’s close losses and there’s drubbings, there’s games you lose yourself and games you’re flat-out beaten in — and this one is going to sting for a while. With Democrats rejecting his plan (for now) to close Guantanamo Bay by denying him the money to do it with, President Obama is suffering the first major defeat of his time in office. It’s happening for some classic reasons. Republicans framed the issue better than Democrats, and it got wrapped up in a broader series of distractions around torture and detainee treatment. But mostly Gitmo gets an unlikely new lease on life because the president thought all he had to do to close it was ask. That’s not how Congress works, not even in this new era. (Consider, after all those Democrats excoriating President Bush over Guantanamo, Senate Democrats are voting to keep it open, with a Wednesday vote). (And how important is that Thursday speech now? Is the most important audience on the left, the right, or the Senate’s version of the center? Plus — how much fun is it that former Vice President Dick Cheney will be speaking on a similar subject, on the same day?) Plus — House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., rallies some allies — but sees her enemies pick up the volume. Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich tells ABC’s Diane Sawyer Wednesday that it’s time for Pelosi to go — and that it’s “dangerous” to allow her to stay: “She really disqualified herself to be speaker,” Gingrich, R-Ga., told Diane Sawyer on ABC’s “Good Morning America. “I think the Democrats should get a new speaker.” Gingrich writes in his weekly newsletter: “The person who is No. 2 in line to be commander in chief can’t have contempt for the men and women who protect our nation. America can’t afford it. . . . Speaker Pelosi has damaged America’s safety.” The response, per ABC’s Jonathan Karl, on “GMA,” “Speaker Pelosi’s spokesperson calls Gingrich’s call for her to leave, quote, ‘ludicrous.’ ” If there’s solace here for the speaker’s office and the Obama White House, perhaps it’s that this is a day for disappointment all around. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, R-Calif., couldn’t even bear to watch his budget measures go down to defeat — so he spent his day in the Rose Garden instead. RNC Chairman Michael Steele declared the page to be turned — but we may not be into the next chapter quite yet. With all of this as context, Democrats are “bowing to political pressure” on Gitmo, Naftali Bendavid writes in The Wall Street Journal: “The issue of Guantanamo’s closure has been a distraction for the Democrats since Mr. Obama several weeks ago requested $80 million to wind down operations at the prison for terrorism suspects by next January. Republicans have seized on the issue, conjuring images of terrorists being released onto America’s streets, something the administration says it will never do.” Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin, D-Ill.: “The feeling was at this point we were defending the unknown.” Will Democrats feel differently when the unknown is known? “Senate Democratic leaders insisted that they still supported the decision to close the prison, were simply waiting for Mr. Obama to provide a more detailed plan, and had acted to avert a partisan feud that would only serve as a distraction and delay a military spending measure,” David M. Herszenhorn writes in The New York Times. But . . . Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev.: “We don’t want is them to be put in prisons in the United States. We don’t want them around the United States.” Democrats are “running from the White House as never before this year,” per Politico’s David Rogers. “Following a similar retreat by the House last week, President Barack Obama is left with no new money to go forward on a signature issue for him — and less flexibility than when he first made his request this spring.” Did they just get scared? “The Senate Democrats’ apparent decision not to fund the $80 million closing of Guantanamo links them, inextricably, to the cheap politics being played by Senate Republicans,” Joe Klein writes for Time. “President Obama is going to give a speech on this topic on Thursday–but the Senators just couldn’t wait 48 hours while the Republicans and cable newsistas were scaring their constituents. Yet another profile in courage.” Among the puzzling things . . . “A poll by the Democratic firm Greenberg Quinlan Rosner finds higher approval ratings for Obama’s national security policies than for his overall job performance. The poll was done for Democracy Corps, a research and strategy organization founded by Democrats Stan Greenberg and James Carville,” Jill Lawrence writes for Politics Daily. “At least for now,” the group says, Obama has “effectively erased doubts that Americans have historically harbored about the Democratic Party’s vision and competence on national security.” “The decision represents a potentially serious setback for Obama, who as a candidate vowed to close Guantanamo and who signed an executive order beginning the process soon after he took office,” Shailagh Murray writes in The Washington Post. Democrats’ “resolve crumbled in the face of a concerted Republican campaign warning of dire consequences if some detainees ended up in prisons or other facilities in the United States, a possibility that Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates has acknowledged.” As for Speaker Pelosi — it’s offense as defense in the Democratic caucus. “Leading House Democrats are lining up to defend House Speaker Nancy Pelosi in her widely publicized dispute with the CIA — while Republicans turn up the pressure on her to retract her accusation that intelligence officials lied to her,” per ABC News. “The strong support for Pelosi stems in large part from the reservoir of goodwill she gained in leading her caucus to a House majority in 2006,” Paul Kane writes in The Washington Post. “[Majority Leader] Hoyer, a former Pelosi rival in leadership elections, added that not a single member of the Democratic caucus has questioned him about Pelosi’s stance, and he said it has not been a point of discussion in leadership meetings.” Rep. Peter Hoekstra, R-Mich., adds to the rhetorical pressure: “In disparaging the CIA and accusing the agency of lying last week, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has become a ‘wrecking ball’ to the morale of officers risking their lives in the field, the top Republican on the House intelligence committee said Tuesday,” the Washington Times’ Stephen Dinan reports. The political implications: “Earlier this month, Republican pollster Neil Newhouse released a 57-page analysis noting President Barack Obama’s high approval ratings and concluding, ‘We’re better off posting up against Democrats in Congress,’ ” Bloomberg’s Jonathan D. Salant reports. “In charging that the Central Intelligence Agency misled her about its methods of interrogating terrorism suspects, U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi gave the Republicans an opening to follow that advice.” What we’re learning about Obama: “Obama could have taken a number of steps to stop this vicious news cycle and the damage it has been doing to his party and agenda,” Dan Gerstein writes in his Forbes column. “He could have issued a public statement reiterating his call to move on from re-litigating the torture wars, which would have sent an unmistakable signal to Pelosi that it was time to stand down. Or to avoid the personal and intra-party fallout from publicly dinging the Speaker, Obama could have done what Lyndon Johnson probably would have–pick up the phone, read Pelosi the riot act and tell her to drop it.” Roll Call’s Tory Newmyer considers the players: “The Speaker’s history with Panetta dates at least to Pelosi’s earliest days in the House in the late 1980s, when she was welcomed into a tight-knit social circle that included Panetta, Rep. George Miller (D-Calif.) and then-Reps. Durbin, Marty Russo (D-Ill.), and Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.). They regularly gathered Tuesday nights for Italian dinners, frequently at the Capitol Hill rowhouse of then-Rep. Tom Downey (D-N.Y.).” No more looking back, RNC Chairman Michael Steele declares. (If we knew it was that easy . . . ) “Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele is attempting to ‘turn the page’ on a troubled period for both his party and his own leadership. But it’s not yet clear that he or his party has reached the next chapter,” per ABC News. “Steele himself proposed few new ideas in his speech, which dwelled more on how the party would frame its opposition to President Obama than on how Republicans can better present themselves to voters.” “Even as he recommended against looking backward, he mentioned Ronald Reagan no fewer than three times,” The Washington Post’s Dana Milbank writes. “He seemed unsure what to do about the situation. He announced that ‘the Republican Party is again going to emerge as the party of new ideas,’ but the main idea of his speech seemed to be that he opposes Democrats.” Kathleen Parker, in her Washington Post column: “Many are suddenly nostalgic for ‘whatshisname’ — the guy who ran the party before Steele, whose name no one can quite remember. Oh, yeah, Mike Duncan. At least he kept the trains running on time, they say. To which criticism Steele says, ‘Stuff it.’ “ New from the DNC: A Web video, with Republicans hearting Dick Cheney. Remind us who lost in California? “Californians are well known for periodic voter revolts, but on Tuesday they did more than just lash out at Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and the Legislature over the state’s fiscal debacle,” the Los Angeles Times’ Michael Finnegan writes. “By rejecting five budget measures, Californians also brought into stark relief the fact that they, too, share blame for the political dysfunction that has brought California to the brink of insolvency.” Get ready for Chu-Chu time in CA-32, just east of Los Angeles: “Judy Chu, a Democrat who serves on the California State Board of Equalization, finished ahead of Democratic state Sen. Gil Cedillo,” ABC’s Teddy Davis reports. “Since Judy Chu did not receive more than 50 percent of the vote, she will now face a July 14 runoff against Republican Betty Chu, the GOPer who received the most votes on Tuesday.” SCOTUS scooplet? “President Barack Obama began interviewing potential Supreme Court candidates Tuesday, while a senior White House official defended the president’s stated preference for a nominee who will give the powerless ‘a fair shake,’ ” Jonathan Weisman and Naftali Bendavid write for The Wall Street Journal. David Axelrod provides the words to parse: “Fidelity to the Constitution is paramount, but as with any document that was written no matter how brilliantly centuries ago, it couldn’t possibly have anticipated all the questions that would be asked in the 21st century.” Coming Wednesday, from Treasury: “We need a financial system that is not deepening or lengthening the recession, and once the conditions for recovery are in place, we need a financial system that is able to provide credit on the scale that a growing economy requires,” Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner will tell the Senate Banking Committee, per ABC’s Matthew Jaffe. “Meeting this obligation requires early and aggressive action by the government to repair the financial system and promote the flow of credit," Geithner will say. "It requires governments to take risks. It also requires the financial system to support sustainable economic expansion. And it requires comprehensive regulatory reforms that deter fraud and abuse, protect American families when they buy a home or get a credit card, reward innovation and tie pay to job performance, and end past cycles of boom and bust. This is our commitment.” What’s next? “The Obama administration is actively discussing the creation of a regulatory commission that would have broad authority to protect consumers who use financial products as varied as mortgages, credit cards and mutual funds, according to several sources familiar with the matter,” Zachary A. Goldfarb, Binyamin Appelbaum and David Cho write for The Washington Post. How long before this explodes as an issue? “Advocates of gun rights are poised to win a Congressional victory that eluded them under a Republican president,” Carl Hulse reports in The New York Times. “To the frustration and discouragement of many Democrats, House and Senate lawmakers and aides say it now appears likely that President Obama will this week sign into law a provision allowing visitors to national parks and refuges to carry loaded and concealed weapons.” Colin Powell’s not out of the Republican Party yet: “Rush Limbaugh says, ‘Get out of the Republican Party.’ Dick Cheney says, ‘He’s already out.’ I may be out of their version of the Republican Party, but there’s another version of the Republican Party waiting to emerge once again,” he said at a speech in Boston, per The Boston Globe. The latest from the Jim Bunning circus: “Sen. Jim Bunning acknowledged Tuesday that during a meeting in December, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell told him that ‘I was too old and I couldn’t win’ a re-election battle in 2010,” McClatchy’s Halimah Abdullah reports. “Bunning, 77, went on to call McConnell a ‘control freak.’ “ Said Bunning: “If Mitch McConnell doesn’t endorse me that may be the best thing that could happen to me in Kentucky.” Looking good for Chris Christie, in New Jersey. New Q-poll numbers: “Two weeks before the primary in the New Jersey Governor’s race, former federal prosecutor Christopher Christie leads former Bogota Mayor Steve Lonegan 56-33 percent among likely Republican primary voters, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today. . . . Among all registered voters, Gov. Jon Corzine trails Christie 45-38 percent, identical to the results of the April 22 survey.” Still a chance at another Senator Kennedy: “Everything I am hearing on Tuesday points to Chris Kennedy getting into the Illinois 2010 Senate race,” Lynn Sweet reports in her Chicago Sun-Times blog. “As of Tuesday afternoon, the plan calls for him to be announcing sometime probably next week.” New from the climate debate — town-hall meetings from Al Gore’s group: “Repower America today announced the launch of a series of town hall and roundtable meetings across the United States to hear from a diverse group of everyday citizens that include business leaders, educators, health care professionals and families about how comprehensive climate policy and clean energy jobs will benefit local communities.” New from the Minnesota Senate race that never, ever ends — DNC Chairman Tim Kaine reaches out to Gov. Tim Pawlenty, R-Minn., governor-to-governor, and for public consumption. “I urge you to use your influence to bring this process to an end by asking Norm Coleman to allow his neighbors and yours, their full representation in Congress,” Kaine writes to Pawlenty. “However, if Mr. Coleman refuses to concede and this case is heard and decided by the Minnesota State Supreme Court, I urge you to commit to signing an election certificate for the rightful winner as soon as the Court issues a ruling in this case.” How does this happen? “Federal authorities are investigating the loss of a computer hard drive containing a huge quantity of personal information from Bill Clinton’s presidency in an apparent security breach at a National Archives record center, government officials said Tuesday,” David Johnston reports in The New York Times. “Government officials briefed on the matter said the breach, which was confirmed in April, involved the loss of a drive containing a terabyte of computerized data, which could include millions of individual pieces of information, including personal information about one of then Vice President Al Gore’s three daughters.” The Kicker: “Man, these are really good eggs.” — Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, asked at a Christian Science Monitor breakfast what it’s like to be on the Supreme Court short list. “Not so much.” — Jim Manley, spokesman for Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, on whether he was having fun on a day where his boss was making a few medical diagnoses on his colleagues. Today on “Top Line,” ABCNews.com’s daily political Webcast: Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa, on Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Guantanamo Bay; and Ana Marie Cox, of Air America and The Daily Beast. Noon ET. http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6105692 Follow The Note on Twitter: http://twitter.com/thenote For up-to-the-minute political updates check out The Note’s blog . . . all day every day: http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/
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Sen. DeMint: GOP Race Could Go Until Convention
Obama Avoids Questions on Contraception Rule
Go ahead liberals, I’d like to see you blame Bush for this one! LMAO!
Posted by: Machod | May 20, 2009, 8:57 am 8:57 am
“In disparaging the CIA and accusing the agency of lying last week, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has become a ‘wrecking ball’ to the morale of officers risking their lives in the field, the top Republican on the House intelligence committee said Tuesday,” the Washington Times’ Stephen Dinan reports.
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LMAO – While Pelosi may serve as a straw woman for the Republicans, it does not change the fact that we tortured people the law was broken under Bush/Cheney.
What hurt the “morale” of officers in the field was the complete undermining and cherry-picking of the CIA’s evidence engineered to support a determined Administration to go to war in Iraq. Oh and torturing people!
Posted by: Spencer | May 20, 2009, 9:14 am 9:14 am
“Go ahead liberals, I’d like to see you blame Bush for this one! LMAO!”
no blame just facts – Bush & Cheney authorized torture, diminishing everything I fight for as a soldier.
Posted by: iraq vet | May 20, 2009, 9:20 am 9:20 am
I am happy to read Powell is speaking out against the arrogant, self-serving comments made by Cheney and Limbaugh. Powell is a man of honor and respected by many across party lines.
As long as Cheney & Limbaugh remain the face of the Republican party, the party will remain a small minority.
Posted by: Stella | May 20, 2009, 9:26 am 9:26 am
Sounds to me like maybe Bush’s plans are about the same as BO’s on most of the foreign affairs. This vindicates Bush you know. All you lefties must be furious.
Posted by: feelingtogetherness | May 20, 2009, 9:29 am 9:29 am
Everybody here would waterboard if it meant a loved ones life. So any arguement is not truthful.
Posted by: feelingtogetherness | May 20, 2009, 9:31 am 9:31 am
Sounds to me like maybe Bush’s plans are about the same as BO’s on most of the foreign affairs.
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Now that’s funny!
We no longer fight terrorism by belittling our long-time allies, then demand their full cooperation.
We no longer break international laws and violate our own constitution just because we think we can.
Posted by: Spencer | May 20, 2009, 9:38 am 9:38 am
I for one hope that they are able to get Nancy Pelosi out of office along with Harry Reid and the “Wonderful Mr. Franks” and our Homeland Security director that thinks Americans are nothing but “RIGHT WING TERRORIST”. I just wish we could take their pensions and out taxpayer benefits away as the have done to so many of the “American People”. It seems strange that the Tuna Company that Mrs. Pelosis’ husband has money invested in was able to get exempt from the minimum wage law in January of 2007 and then get money from the “Stimulis Bill” in 2009. They say they cannot tie Mrs. Pelosi to being responsable for these actions,but, how smart would you have to be to figure out how her husbands Company can keep getting these favors. I mean the Bank my wife works for did not get money from any of these programs,but, then I am not a Member the Political scene either. If I were maybe then they could have benefited from the extra aid. These Politicians (Republican & Democrats)really believe that we are the ultimate in “STUPITY”. We can be bought for a $13.00 a week tax cut,while, at the same time they want to impose a tax on our Health Care programs and give “TRILLIONS” to their “MONEY PEOPLE”. Wake up America you are going down the tubes,while, our “LEADERS & their FRIENDS” are getting richer and richer on our money.
Posted by: Don Park | May 20, 2009, 10:03 am 10:03 am
FACTS
Bush/Cheney tortured -Broke the Law
Bush/Cheney tortured to try and Link taliban and Binladen to Iraq to Justfy the War because they Knew there were no WMDS. And thats why we Invaded Iraq so they had to Justify It some way. Republicans Know slowly the truth is coming out so In defense Their gonna Attack the Dems Pelosi more ITS GOING TO BACKFIRE BIG TIME! You think there approval ratings are low now you aint seen nothing yet!
Posted by: Angie in Pa | May 20, 2009, 10:16 am 10:16 am
Don Park, the only way they are going to be removed from office will be by the will of the people they represent from their home states.
Pelosi can be voted out as Speaker of the House by members of the House, but she remains a representative until her California constituents vote her out.
Posted by: George | May 20, 2009, 10:29 am 10:29 am
This is the beginning of the democrats falling apart. Happens everytime.
Posted by: liberals are a waste of space | May 20, 2009, 10:37 am 10:37 am
Let Newt, Cheney, Steele, Limbaugh, Hannity and the rest of the small minority shout, spin, hiss and boo.
No one’s really listening.
what people ARE listening to is the evidence that the prior administration constructed an oligarchy that authorized unconstitutional torture of ‘prisoners’; constructed a link of Sadaam Hussein to Al-Queda to justify their false Iraq war, awarded contracts with corporations that ensured their own agenda and personal wealth & power building.
the dirt continues to surface…
Posted by: gus amaral | May 20, 2009, 10:38 am 10:38 am
“Everybody here would waterboard if it meant a loved ones life. So any arguement is not truthful.”
Posted by: feelingtogetherness | May 20, 2009 9:31:40 AM
_________________
Thank god for civilized culture. and education. and the constitution. and the law.
Posted by: gus amaral | May 20, 2009, 10:41 am 10:41 am
“Since when did terrorists get our constitutional rights!”
Get educated. What do you think the Geneva Convention was all about? What do you think the Nurumburgh trials were all about? There are universal standards of how prisoners are treated.
The United States has been a world leader in promoting human rights. Intelligent people strive to uphold these standards, not because we feel sorry for terrorists but because we know that the rule of law is stronger than any weapon. Following a code of honor is a sign of strength, not weakness. Criminals torture to achieve their ends, the most powerful nation in the world should not.
Posted by: Amy B Maine | May 20, 2009, 11:34 am 11:34 am
Glenn
You noticed that too? I thought it was just me who detected the Note’s right wing bias.
Posted by: Amy B Maine | May 20, 2009, 12:03 pm 12:03 pm
Why don’t we just take the right-wing approach to dealing with the Gitmo detainees: execute them all and let God sort them out.
Posted by: Waterboard All Conservative Whack-Jobs | May 20, 2009, 12:04 pm 12:04 pm
If found guilty I don’t think it’s a problem to keep them locked up for life – if found innocent, then setting them free shouldn’t be a problem either. I hardly think any one of the innocent would want to stay in the United States since we’ve been so hospitable and provided such speedy trials.
Posted by: OnTheGloryRoad | May 20, 2009, 12:31 pm 12:31 pm
Newt – you won your last election when? Let the ones who do the electing tackle the problem, that is of course you want to run in San Francisco.
Posted by: OnTheGloryRoad | May 20, 2009, 12:33 pm 12:33 pm
Think it would be just great to move the prisoners from GITMO to Alcatraz — the Governator is talking of selling the property — plus, Fancy Nancy would bring a bit of business to her area!! SHe keeps on hollering for GITMO to be closed, so let her keep them in the Bay area! In her next job, she might even compete to be warden (now folks, that would be real TORTURE!!!)
Posted by: PappyHappy | May 20, 2009, 12:54 pm 12:54 pm
feelingtogetherness | May 20, 2009 9:29:05 AM
… “Sounds to me like maybe Bush’s plans are about the same as BO’s on most of the foreign affairs. This vindicates Bush you know.” …
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Really? … Not really. But, if that type of reasoning ‘floats your boat’ – have at it!
Posted by: bobj72 | May 20, 2009, 12:57 pm 12:57 pm
Blah, Blah, Blah….
THE BOTTOM LINE HERE IS…. THE PRESIDENT HAS AN AGENDA, A THINGS TO ACCOMPLISH LIST FOR THE NEXT 100 DAYS, REGARDLESS IF IT’S SUCCESSFUL OR NOT.
I’M A CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRAT AND IT’S VERY UNSETTLING WHEN I HEAR ALL THIS FUSS AND MEDIA ATTENTION, BLAME PUSHING WHEN IT COMES TO THESE TERRORIST, WATERBOARDING AND HOW WE NEED TO GET THEM OUT OF CUBA, SEND THEM TO WHO KNOWS WHERE.
MY RESPONSE TO THIS IS: FOCUS IN RESOLVING ISSUES HERE FIRST, “AMERICANS FIRST” SO MANY PROJECTS WITH NO POSITIVE TANGIBLE RESULTS.
I CALL THINGS OUT AS I SEEM THEM, I AM NOT BLINDED BY CHARASMATIC WORDS. I SEE THE FACTS…. WHICH ARE UNEMPLOYMENT ON A RISE [NO FIX YET, BUT THERE'S A GLIMMER THERE, JUST HOLD ON TO YOUR SEAT BELTS]…HOUSING ISSUE IS STILL AT AN UPACE, PEOPLE LOSING THEIR HOMES, NO SOLUTION TO THOSE AMERICANS BATTLING EVERY DAY WITH THEIR LENDER & FOREIGN INVESTORS, PAYING LAWYERS FEES FOR SOME TYPE OF RELIEF OR SIGN OF HOPE , CHILDREN, ALSO OUT ON THE STREETS LIVING ON SUBWAYS AND UNDER BRIDGES…BUT I GUESS THIS DOES NOT MERIT ANY MEDIA ATTENTION – WHY SHOULD IT, RIGHT? IS THIS BUILDING A STRONG AMERICA? WAY TO GO….
YES!!! WHY FUSS ABOUT THESE ISSUES, I GUESS WE ARE ONLY THE 1.9 MILLION AND COUNTING-ONLY A HAND FULL RIGHT GOVERNMENT? HERE IS WHERE WE STAND – WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF AMERICANS FIRST!!! FOLLOW-UP ON THE BILLS PASSED AND SEE WHERE THESE HAVE FAILED AND AREAS OF OPPORTUNITY, MONITOR THOSE BAILOUTS, AND WHO HAS IT BENEFIT FROM THEM.
Posted by: Voice | May 20, 2009, 1:10 pm 1:10 pm
Don Park | May 20, 2009 10:03:17 AM
… “our “LEADERS & their FRIENDS” are getting TRILLIONS” to their “MONEY PEOPLE”. Wake up America you are going down the tubes,while, our “LEADERS & their FRIENDS” are getting richer and richer on our money.” …
______________
Just wondering… Were you as Vocal and INCENSED upon learning that KBR / Halliburton was NOT ONLY ripping the U. S. off for Billions monthly in the Middle East Wars, some of their shoddy (No Bid Contract) electrical work, has killed numerous unsuspecting members of our military!!!
Posted by: bobj72 | May 20, 2009, 1:11 pm 1:11 pm
Voice | May 20, 2009 1:10:44 PM
Just FYI, Writing in “All Caps” is “net-talk” for SHOUTING. And folks tend to assume the writer “is Off a bit.” Most tend to just ignore such commentary, rightly or wrongly. The point is, many times valuable info to the discussion is lost, without this understanding.
Posted by: bobj72 | May 20, 2009, 1:25 pm 1:25 pm
Actually the new information about the wording in the CIA’s report of the meeting with Congress makes it pretty clear that it is not Pelosi who is telling a lie. Besides, harassing Pelosi is a bait and switch move on the part of Republicans to try to cover the malfeasance of the cheney Bush era. It simply will not work. Even moderate Republicans like me are not drinking the Cheney kool-aid. We are well aware that for the first time, the highest members of our government approved and condoned torture similar to the Nazi regime and we are totally disgusted. I say, do not have endless hearings about this issue, giving Republicans the chance to dissemble further but send these guys right to the Hague to be tried for crimes against humanity.
Posted by: Mari | May 20, 2009, 1:27 pm 1:27 pm
I don’t think the questions being asked today, the circumstances we face today are all that different to those faced by our founders and foreseen in the provisions of our constitution. The thing that puts us at odds with the Constitution is the way the people think of the problems and the way they think the problems should be addressed. The world was just as crazy if not crazier back then. There was just as much death from disease and hunger. There was as much suppression of individual freedom. There was concentration of wealth among ruling classes. There were genocides and territorial disputes and religious conflicts and internal revolutions. We just have better communications and hear about everything that occurs around the world. Additionally, we have appointed ourselves the world’s “peacekeepers” whereas our founders were more inward looking because we were an emerging nation. As far as morals and ethics are concerned, we are parallel with or possibly even degraded from the level of our founders who, like us, talked the talk but didn’t walk the walk. What is civilization, in reality, other than having more efficient, more sophisticated means of killing those we don’t agree with?
Posted by: mmonroeliveson | May 20, 2009, 1:39 pm 1:39 pm
Amy B; Again you slant to make your points. As for code of conduct in war, I think the British pretty well proved that marching in straight lines and shooting at each other across open fields, the accepted code of conduct in those times, was a recipe for defeat by people willing to hide behind rocks and trees and conduct ambushes…. our ancestors. At that point in history everything changed. The world became aware of the importance of winning when at war by wharever means is necessary, even if it involves harsh interrogation techniques. Winer or loser are the only options. Nobody respects the noble loser who played by the rules.
Posted by: mmonroeliveson | May 20, 2009, 1:50 pm 1:50 pm
Posted by: mmonroeliveson | May 20, 2009 1:39:11 PM:
“I don’t think the questions being asked today, the circumstances we face today are all that different to those faced by our founders and foreseen in the provisions of our constitution. The thing that puts us at odds with the Constitution is the way the people think of the problems and the way they think the problems should be addressed. The world was just as crazy if not crazier back then.”
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foreseen by our founders?…
population size
globalization
nuclear power & weapons
Posted by: gus amaral | May 20, 2009, 2:23 pm 2:23 pm
I really can’t see how torture will help our image abroad and decrease security threats. I think that the US should pursue a strategy with more soft power including more efficient foreign aid. This will encourage people in less-than-stable areas to be productive instead of radicals, it will increase security, and it will alleviate needless suffering. The Borgen Project has good info on the estimated cost of ending global poverty:
$30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.
$550 billion: U.S. Defense budget.
Posted by: David | May 20, 2009, 2:48 pm 2:48 pm
Gus; 1)Yes, they saw a great nation emerging with the potential to support a huge population. They probably envisioned a much more densely populated nation, but we’ve kept our population under control through wars and abortions, and with more than a little help from disease. 2)They were a part of globalization. The last frontier more or less. 3) Who could have possibly anticipated an “ultimate weapon” like the atomic bomb? But even in those times and from the beginning of nations, the ones with the best weaponry have emerged as winners. Surerly they didn’t think muskets were the most devastating things man could devise.
Posted by: mmonroeliveson | May 20, 2009, 2:53 pm 2:53 pm
David; The torture wasn’t for the purpose of improving our image abroad. It was for the extraction of information that would keep our nation safe. It proved effective according to intelligence insiders and actually headed off subsequent terrorist activities.So far the plan of the previous administration has worked. It may be noteworthy to affirm that this administration is following the last administration’s lead in many respects. War is ugly. We didn’t start it though it is our goal to finish it. As for foreign aid it hasn’t brought anything beyond envy from those we’ve helped. The only acceptance we’ve appreciated was acceptance of our handouts. Meanwhile Americans continue to starve, oppose our own government, alienate themselves from the mainstream of prosperity offered by the free enterprise system, refuse the free education available to every American, because the opt for a life of crime and/or welfare.
Posted by: mmonroeliveson | May 20, 2009, 3:03 pm 3:03 pm
David; If $30 billion will end world hunger then why is our government sending tax dollars? Isn’t the money being donated by Bill Gates and Warren Buffet enough?
Posted by: mmonroeliveson | May 20, 2009, 3:14 pm 3:14 pm
“It proved effective according to intelligence insiders”
Actually, that’s not true. It’s what Cheney claims, if you want to site him as an insider, fine, however, I have not seen this corraborated by other interrogaters.
That’s the problem with discussing anything with Cheney: our former Vice President is a sociopathic liar.
Posted by: Amy B Maine | May 20, 2009, 4:31 pm 4:31 pm
This is nothing but politics.The dem Senator know that by bringing those terrorists into American Soild will cost them their precious seat in the Senate and just chicken out.Gitmo will come back after the 2010 elections….
Posted by: Frank | May 20, 2009, 5:37 pm 5:37 pm
Joe Klein writes for Time: “President Obama is going to give a speech on this topic on Thursday–but the Senators just couldn’t wait 48 hours while the Republicans and cable newsistas were scaring their constituents.”
Among those Republicans and cable newsistas that Joe Klein points out as trying to scare lawmaker’s constituents for cynical political reasons:
Rick Klein and his daily abc right-wing talking points blog.
Posted by: Glenn | May 20, 2009, 6:43 pm 6:43 pm
If Obama really wants to close Gitmo, then why not simply declare it a troubled asset and use TARP money to close it?
Posted by: rennin1 | May 20, 2009, 7:42 pm 7:42 pm
Bet the republicans didn’t see the psychology in this one. President Obama tried to fulfill a campaign promise. No one will fault him for trying. LOL!!
Posted by: rightbehind | May 20, 2009, 7:46 pm 7:46 pm
SEND ALL THE DETAINEES TO GHICAGO… NEXT DOOR TO OBAM’S HOUSE !!!
Posted by: emndix | May 20, 2009, 7:47 pm 7:47 pm
As far as gingrich he’s already finished. Just where are all those WMDs?? Somebody obviously lied.
Posted by: rightbehind | May 20, 2009, 7:48 pm 7:48 pm
AS I SEE IT — by Mike “Mainer Mike” Brown —
Why do we have to spend valueable tax dollars to close Gitmo just because of it’s bad reputation?
After all, a prison camp isn’t supposed to be the happy, fun magic kingdom like Disneyworld is.
Just keep this place open, and let the prisoners spend the rest of their lives there.
Posted by: Mike Brown | May 20, 2009, 8:27 pm 8:27 pm
While Guantanamo should cease to be a prison for alleged terrorists and returned to the U.S. Naval base it had been in the past,there needs to be a top echelon impartial review board to review with painstaking care the dossier of each and every person being held there. How many are bona fide Al Quaida terrorists and how many are merely cannon fodder, little more than human shields for the real big guns. Once the prisoners are thoroughly sorted out, THEN they can be sent to isolated prisons where they can’t mix with anyone else, to be guarded by Special Forces/MPs. There’s a brand new multimillion $ prison I was reading about up in Montana standing empty in the middle of nowhere. An ideal spot for the bad guys. During WW II Nazi prisoners of war were held in several prison camps in the Southwestern states; the Nazis certainly had no kind feelings for Americans.
Posted by: nanameow | May 20, 2009, 9:57 pm 9:57 pm
It’s a tragedy that our nation of “entitlements” and short term memory, tends to neglect what happened on 9-11-2001 and what we saw in Iraq and Pakistan with the beheadings of innocent people. We tend to focus on our own issues to the point of total bias and ignorance. It will take another tragedy to bring common sense. Waterboarding is practiced on our own for training purposes. Our US prisons are far worse for those locked up. There are much worse “incidents” taking place within out prison systems. Why don’t you left-wing and/or naive uneducated liberals travel to a third world country or a Muslim country and demand women be better treated? It’s easy to blame our own than to do something to improve upon a condition.
What would you do if the designer and mastermind of 9-11 was in front of you with knowledge of future plans? I guess your sheltered Starbucks life in the US would attempt to convince him to reveal his plans. What if he had plans to blow up your children’s school but we didn’t know when and by whom? What would you do? Think hard and be true to yourself and not be swayed by ignorant selfish uneducated reporters such as those in ABC.
Posted by: bobanders123 | May 20, 2009, 11:52 pm 11:52 pm
Abuse of intelligence gathering services in this country is not a new thing. It took Senator Frank church and his committee to investigate the FBI and CIA activities under Tricky Dicky, leading to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978. Guess what the Republican administrations since then have done to that one. So it is definitely time to clean CIA house and general intelligence gathering again. And yes, we can speak out, since we pay the bill.
Posted by: Richard in Texas | May 21, 2009, 2:57 am 2:57 am