Blood on the Streets of Tehran

Mr. Obama is a weak and indecisive President, not forcefully speak out for the same, hard-fought freedom that has allowed him to become President, the same freedom that allows ice creams trucks to ring their bells through the kids neighbourhoods.

“young_voter”, did you not read Jake’s post? Do you have no understanding of Iranian internal politics? Everyone who is knowledgable about the situation is saying Obama is doing exactly the right thing. Cowboy diplomacy is not the way to go. Chest-pounding by the US President on behalf of the demonstrators is the LAST thing they need and will delegitimize their protests in the eyes of many on-the-fence Iranians. This nascent “revolution” will rise and fall with Iranians. Obama is taking the right tone in speaking of “justice” and the right to free expression. Beyond that, it is in the hands of Iranians. You do not see Mousavi or the Iranian demonstrators beseeching Obama to speak out more for them. There’s a very good reason for that. Respect their wishes.

If Republicans had won the White House there would probably be nuclear devastation throughout the mid east, millions dead,..
here at home we would have happy republicans saying that they saved everyone by killing everyone, and they would still be looking for another war to start

By the way, I find it curious that many in the media are so enthralled with airing Republican talking points about how Obama is somehow “not doing enough” to support the demonstrators (even though they are NOT asking for such explicit support) without even talking about how Obama’s election, outreach to the Muslim world and Iranians in particular and the Cairo speech may have been precipitating factors in these demonstrations.

Again, jennifer, you demonstrate zero understanding of Iranian politics (not unusual for a Freeper). And your bizarre aside about who in the United States is politicizing this is just that… bizarre. It is Obama who is doing the right thing for the Iranian demonstrators and it is the preening Republicans, who are all over my TV talk shows today, who are trying to make political hay out of this for their own party’s benefit. Shame on them.

Again, jennifer, you demonstrate zero understanding of Iranian politics (not unusual for a Freeper).
Posted by: Lisa | Jun 21, 2009 6:44:55 PM
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Enlighten me, Lisa. The floor is yours.

jennifert7 – We propped up the Shah in the 50′s, he was a harsh dictator! That led to the revolt in 1979, which brought us the current government system in Iran. Maybe it’s best if we do stay out of it, we don’t have a great track record! The Iranian people have to do this for themselves!

Someone might want to break it to the President and his very few supporters on this issue that those videos can be made and will be made regardless of Obama’s statements. Moreover, the same was done using propaganda against us and protestors in Georgia, Ukraine, and elsewhere — what happened to them?

The Iranian religious leadership has killed it’s own people, fellow Muslims, for political reasons…I’m not an expert but that has to be a new major hurdle for them to justify, how will they ‘square’ it with the teachings of the Quran?
.. they can’t ..
I don’t know what will happen but in this case the old cliche rings true: ‘the genie is out of the bottle’,

For a change let us sit back and let them work it out amoung themselves no matter how much we might disapprove.

Jennifer, I’ve asked this several times and have not received an answer from you. If Obama speaking out in explicit support of the demonstrators would help their cause, as you seem to think is obvious, why do we not hear any of the demonstrators saying such a thing on the streets, on Twitter or any of the other media they’re using to communicate? Why is Mousavi, who has made many public statements, not said anything about wanting support from Obama and the U.S. government? If it would be so helpful, and not harmful at all to their cause, why would they not say it?

Good to know we finally agree, Jennifer.

It seems that as of today we have seen the results of millions of peaceful protesters in the cities all over Iran expressing their anger for being ripped off of their votes. Over the last 3 days several thousand people have waged a type of guerilla confrontation in the streets against the police with minimal affect. All we are seeing is courageous young Iranians being murdered by the dozens. With only a rock in each hand they are no match for the well armed security forces. I regret to inform the protesters that if they are really serious about taking control of their country it is to get rifles and any other weapons and organize into a fierce fighting army with their own commanders to bring down a corrupt regime that cares nothing for them but only to holding onto power at any cost. Despite the naive and well intentioned yet valiant attacks by the students and others, the casualties they are suffering is before the Armed Forces of Iran have even entered the battle. If there is to be a real civil war inside Iran then the international community must come to the aid of the insurgents who seek a just Iranian society. Weapons need to be quickly given to these underdogs before they are all unfortunately killed or imprisoned by this corrupt and illegitimet regime. Time is of the essence before this criminal gang develops an atomic arsenal to lord over the middle east.

These cries for democracy can not be a coincidence that to the west of Iran, free democratic elections have been held, and to the right of Iran, free democratic elections have also been held, all due to the initial imposition of US force.

“The Iraqis are free today because of our meddling. And their freedom, I’m sure, is an inspiration to many Iranians.”
Wow, I didn’t know it was possible for someone to be this utterly clueless. Have you ever spoken to an Iranian?

Kate:”Are you saying Reagan hurt the cause of freedom and independence by saying “Gorbachev tear down this wall”?”
When Reagan said that there were not thousands in the streets begging the men holding the guns to join them.
The more reasonable comparison would be Reagan’s muted reaction to Solidarity’s mass protests in Poland (look up his actual words and they almost mirror the Obama administration’s statements), or to Bush Sr’s subtle (and in retrospect, perfect) response to the 1989 revolution that felled the Soviet Union.
“We view the current situation in Poland in the gravest of terms, particularly the increasing use of force against an unarmed population and violations of the basic civil rights of the Polish people… We’ve always been ready to do our share to assist Poland in overcoming its economic difficulties, but only if the Polish people are permitted to resolve their own problems free of internal coercion and outside intervention.”-Reagan during the Solidarity revolution

mjl:” It it appalling that you have the nerve to interview the obamas IN the white house, promoting his health care agenda WITH NO OPPOSITION.
It is totally unacceptable in the U.S.
SHAME ON YOU ABC. YOU ABSOLUTELY DISGUST ME.”
And you felt the same way when FoxNews brought you the Bush Presidency from the Whitehouse – starting right in the Oval Office?

The Iraqis are free today because of our meddling. And their freedom, I’m sure, is an inspiration to many Iranians.”
Wow, I didn’t know it was possible for someone to be this utterly clueless. Have you ever spoken to an Iranian?
Posted by: Lisa | Jun 21, 2009 8:31:33 PM
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Again, please enlighten us with your expertise on the views of “an Iranian” who you are intimately familiar with. Then, teach us about your in depth knowledge of Iranian politics you hold. Look at it as a teaching opportunity. You know you want to. Go for it. Maybe there are other people on the fence you can convince/persuade to your side. Unclinch your fist.

No, Jennifer. The burden is on YOU to explain your position. You, and many Republicans, are advocating for a specific course of action, namely getting the US government involved in the Iranian uprising by the expression of explicit support. You must show why this course of action would be wise and not harmful. Because our first obligation to the Iranian protestors, as fellow human beings interested in their freedom, should be to “do no harm” to their cause.
Again, I ask you… Mousavi and the demonstrators have said many things over the past week or so. One thing they have specifically NOT said is that they would like U.S. government support. Why not? Are they just too stupid to ask for it, even though it would help them? Or do they perhaps understand more about their own country than you do?
Again, is this about helping the Iranians or is it just about making you feel noble and good about yourself, regardless of what they want?

“If an Iraq poll is any indication of how Iranians might feel”
You’re kidding right? Truly, you’re going to base your arguments on a poll done in Iraq?
I rest my case.

If Khamanei can successfully make the case that this is a US backed revolt it will totally undermine the protesters legitimacy
Undermine their legitimacy with who?
Evidently the protesters don’t agree w/you since they are making most of their signs in English. Gee I wonder if they are worried that might undermine their legitimacy?

Try the truth | Jun 21, 2009 10:48:25 PM
I don’t think that they really believe any of the this baloney that they post. It’s all propaganda.

“Why are you so against Iranians having freedom and a democratic government?”
Nice little straw man you constructed there, Kate. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?
Here’s a hint… America can’t give the Iranians “freedom and a democratic government”, unless you’re up for another military invasion. Only the Iranians can do that for themselves. And, at this point, having the U.S. government inject itself into that process will only HARM the demonstrators and their prospects. What about that do you find so difficult to understand? And why are Republicans so simplistic in their thinking? The world is just a wee bit more complex than “are you for or against freedom” and “are you with us or against us”.

..attempting to broker some sort of a deal that allows Supreme Leader Khamanei to save a bit of face. They don’t want to topple him, he has kept the Taliban out of Iran.
Posted by: Try the truth
The rest of the ‘Arab/Muslim’ world will be in a awkward postion,
they still have to account somehow for the murder of unarmed Muslim civilians, women..ordered by the ruling clerics, and the other countries are faced with tacit support for repression by any means necessary, if the current government holds..and they say nothing… of course they are waiting like everyone else to see what happens.
on the other hand, if the revolution succeeds in replacing the government, odds are that it will be a less repressive regime, with a possible benefit of a better relationship with the more moderate Arab states and the West…should that happen the Taliban would be totally out of the picture…..and there might even be a greater chance of moderation between Iran and Israel.
The last time I had this intense feeling of watching history of the mid-east in the making was when Sadat bravely went to Israel to make peace with Begin.
we hope for the best…
only time will tell…

on the other hand, if the revolution succeeds in replacing the government, odds are that it will be a less repressive regime, with a possible benefit of a better relationship with the more moderate Arab states and the West…should that happen the Taliban would be totally out of the picture…..and there might even be a greater chance of moderation between Iran and Israel.—————– that is my hope and prayer. Years ago, right after the Shah was exiled I worked with a woman from Iran, she called herself Persian so nobody here would give her a hard time. He father was killed by this regime. He was part of the Shah’s gov’t. I don’t know how high up, but they led a VERY good life there. She at that time told me, the people need to make the decision on what type of Gov’t they wanted. She said if the US hadn’t interfered years earlier Iran may have gotten to a democracy. But they traded one dictator for another who used religion. The youth of Iran are tired of this type of life, I believe they can do this, we have to step back and let the other Arab nations take care of this. It will happen for the Iranian people, it may take time, and I fear many deaths. I keep them in my prayers

No Mas, you are correct there is “no silence” on this issue. It is receiving 24 hour coverage. But I do think we, as ordinary citizens do have the responsibility to speak out against the violation of human rights wherever we see it. I also agree with you that there is work being done behind the scenes that isn’t covered by the media and that we ordinary citizens don’t know about. However I think political leaders and organizations like the U. N. are motivated to work even harder when they know that there are large numbers of people around the world who care deeply about what is happening to the protesters in Iran. I also believe that abuse and repression – whether it be in a family – or on a national level such as has been the case in Iran – thrive in an atmosphere of “secrecy and silence”.

Hope & Change – just not for Iranians.
Interfering on the side of freedom & democracy is exactly what America should do. The people of Iran will not thank us for sitting on the side-lines while they were being shot on the streets. Would you?
This, ”Oh we shouldn’t interfere” BS is just a cop-out for having no principles & not willing to take sides, of being passive & cowardly.
Iran under it’s Islamic tyranny is the main problem in the world today.
Can you imagine these kind of people with nuclear arms? People who have no qualms about murdering their own people, what qualms do you think they’ll have about killing others?
It is the height of being gullible, naive, & wishful thinking to believe that we have a big stake in the outcome of this mess in Iran today.
But Obama would rather have ”dialogue” just like Neville Chamberlain had dialogue with Hitler.
We all know how well that policy worked.

I think the Iranian regime has learned from the past and will let this simmer and eventually cool – unfortunately.
They will stand strong, but will not let it get out of hand.

The people of Iran most decide their own faith all western governments should wait and see if were seen to be given sucker to the opposition this will arm the government of Iran with all the conspiracy theories it needs the people of Iran should decide its own faith

“Don’t tell me words don’t matter,” then candidate Obama said, to applause. “‘I have a dream’ – just words? ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal’ – just words? ‘We have nothing to fear but fear itself’ – just words? Just speeches?”
How the Iranian people would have loved to hear “just words” from the Obama administration. Weak words came, but far too little, but hopefully not too late.
Remember “Neda” the young woman and the word for voice in Farsi and don’t tell me words don’t matter.

Can I finish my custard, people? French Vanilla, if you please!
I guess Hillary was right all along, when the 3am call came, Barry was too important to be awakened.
Leftist care nothing about oppressed people unless they can get some useful tips from the oppressors. Why do Leftists hate non-Europeans so much? Are they racists?

brian:”SO the left wing media spend months ranting about 3 terrorists with wet faces, and is afraid to condemn the murder of 200+ Iranian demonstrators? I suggest that the left wing has lost all sense of reality. ”
Speaking of losing all sense of reality, I have noticed every media outlet, Congress, and the administration quite unequivocally condemn the murder of Iranian demonstrators. I guess brian just missed it.

See what happens when the people do not have guns.

If we had elected McCain, we’d be bombing the very people who are protesting right now. Instead of overthrowing their government, they’d be throwing rocks at our soldiers, and rallying behind the Ayatollah.
It’s so sad that the GOP is so quick to declare our president “the Great Satan”… and only because they lost an election.
Sad.

“When the protectors are begging the riot police to join them, they are waving the Koran, not trying to look like American lackeys”
Funny, I haven’t read or seen any pics of Korans being waved around. Funny too how both Germany & France are putting out strong statements of support for the protesters. Sad that they are showing more leadership than the One who continues to vote “present”.

“As opposed to – what? You want to send the military in now?”
No one is purposing overt military action, but that strawmen simply highlights your INABILITY to come face to face with Obama failure.
Obama simply is married to reaching an agreement with the Iranian regime regardless of its worth. Hence he cancelled all funding for the programs set up to assist the Iranians democracy movements.
Obama has a preprogrammed agenda of reaching an agreement with the mullahs to showcase for the next election and even if it is broken Obama must have it. His entire foreign policy was on his meeting with Ahmadinejad and showcasing his “masterful” God-like peace making abilities.
These protest are a “distraction” to Obama’s agenda.

“who they wanted to bomb and waterboard a few months ago”
Repeating a lie repeatedly does NOT make it true, no matter how much you wish it did!
It wasn’t the Conservatives who would rather leave these people or the people in Iraq for that matter in OPPRESSION. It wasn’t and isn’t the Conservatives who fought tooth and nail to keep Saddam Hussein in power in Iraq or invited Ahmadinejad to Columbia to take potshots at our President and then laughed with him as he libeled Jews and Americans. It isn’t Conservative websites and “experts” calling for non-support of the Iranians because it might upset the “messiah” mission to meet with the Mullahs. THAT WOULD BE THE LEFT.
Conservatives have NO issue with the Iranian people only their regime who has targeted and killed numerous Americans since 1979. The Left on the other hand holds the exact same view as the Regime in that they both blame America for all the ills in the Middle East, not like Conservatives who blame the actual thugocracies who RULE over the oppressed people.
Leftist simply say oh well, the thugs rule so we must appease them. How progressive??

Kate:”Funny too how both Germany & France are putting out strong statements of support for the protesters. Sad that they are showing more leadership than the One who continues to vote “present”.”
Funny how you seem to have no grasp of reality:
“We mourn each and every innocent life that is lost. We call on the Iranian government to stop all violent and unjust actions against its own people. The universal rights to assembly and free speech must be respected, and the United States stands with all who seek to exercise those rights…And right now, we are bearing witness to the Iranian peoples’ belief in that truth, and we will continue to bear witness.”
Could you please post the French and German statements that are stronger than that, or should I assume you are making that up?

Posted by: SClanding | Jun 22, 2009 11:48:57 AM
Again, this is just a paranoid view. Conservatives are beyond reproach, and the wicked LEFT is the source of all evil.
The LEFT…. if there even is such a thing as a monolithic LEFT…. has a view which is much more nuanced than the hateful one you depict.
I think most people that you consider to be on the LEFT simply think that attacking Iran is an ineffective way to achieve your objectives.
The best way, the one that Obama has apparently chosen, is to neutralize the threat that the US represented to the Iranian people. By resisting the right’s clarion call for WAR against the Iranian government, the Iranians have been able think long and hard about just what it is that they get out of the current regime.
Under Bush, the Iranians found security in supporting their government’s hard-line stance. But now that the threat is off the table, they can think about other things…. like if the current regime is good for anything.
Apparently, this approach is working. But, we have always known that being on permanent war footing is toxic to democracy…. so I can hardly credit Obama for this stroke of genius. Rather, it’s just common sense.
Don’t hate him for it. Just acknowledge it, and move on. Or else you risk further stigmatizing your party as the party that is opposed to common sense.

“Sad that they are showing more leadership than the One who continues to vote “present”.”
Awww, Freepers and their rehearsed talking points are so adorable. “The One”. “Present”. Now all we need are some cries of “ACORN!” to complete the trifecta.
Too bad that does nothing to help the Iranian people (but somehow I don’t sense that helping the Iranian people is what this is really about for the Republicans.)

“has a view which is much more nuanced”
The LEFT always has a more “nuaunced” but what isn’t nuanced is that it ALWAYS leaves people in the same sorry oppressed state.
The Left talks the talk but that is always where it ends. Why is that?
Exactly the same arguments were used by our nuanced and “enlightened” leftist toward conservatives during the 80′s Eastern European revolutions. They argued vehemently against Reagan’s overt and openingly anti-communist government actions and stances. Because it was better to just accept “reality” and get along with the Soviets even if it meant the oppression of the Eastern Europeans.
If you are a youngster, you probably think that the Left LOVED Reagan’s “Tear Down this Wall” comments and his support of protesters in Germany and Poland. YOU would be WRONG. They had fits and blasted Reagan for being too simplistic and not being more “nuanced”. Of course once the Soviets DID fall, leftist switched sides and were a pal of Reagan all along.
There are a ways to support the protesters and only idiots think anybody is talking about sending in 3rd Armor. Interesting enough, French Vanilla custard isn’t one of them???
So what will be the end result, Obama and his supporters will get their “nuance” and will preen about how lovely and intelligent Obama is. Not at all like those vile Conservatives. BUT yet again while the LEFT preens and pats itself on its back for his brilliance, a nation of people will AGAIN be left under an oppressive government.
PS. Obama wrote a thesis in college about the evilness of Reagan and why he had to be stopped but listening to him now you would think they had always been buxom buddies.

Ahhh! Custard-gate! Impeach Obama! He’s controlling your brains with fluoride! Stop Obama! The US Government forged his birth certificate to make way for the New World Order! “Ice Cream” is a secret symbol to initiate the end times!
It’s all contained in Obama’s secret undergraduate book report, encrypted using communist code words. I=The Soviets. Liked=Will. Farewell to Arms=Take over the free world.
His book report title: I Liked Farewell to Arms.
You don’t need to be a genius to figure it out.

Many of you have argued that the demonstrators have not asked for assistance from the US and do not want our “interference” in the form of stronger statements of support or supportive actions from our president. I have strongly supported the president’s use of cautious but firm language and a low-key approach myself.
So now I have a serious question– not an attempt to spring an “a-ha” moment on you. It is a question I am trying to figure out for myself as well– what are we to make of a small number of statements by Iranian activists like Ahmad Batebi and the student identified only as Muhammad on CNN, who have called on Obama to be more vocal and supportive? I am not sure that they represent the majority of protesters in Iran, but in the extremely limited contacts I have had with Iranians in the past week, I am beginning to think this is not as rare as I had thought. Do you think that the strategy the US is pursuing needs to change as the situation continues to unfold? Do you think at this point the protesters still want us to be circumspect or would they prefer stronger demonstrations of support at this point or later in the week, as the strikes begin to spread (it is hoped that strikes will show the size of the resistance, I am told)?

This would be a good time to recall the words of Ronald Reagan during the 1982 crackdown of the authoritarian Polish government against the Solidarity movement:
“The struggle in the world today for the hearts and minds of mankind is based on one simple question: Is man born to be free, or slave? In country after country, people have long known the answer to that question. We are free by divine right.”
Try, if you will, to imagine such words springing from the lips of B. H. Obama. The thing cannot be done; he is incapable of such an utterance.
Why is he incapable? Because, sad to say, he does not remotely believe that assertion to be true. And he does not believe it to be true because he is a child of “multiculturalism”–the belief that no culture, no government, no people, no nation is in any way better than any other. Indeed, he may not be a child of this nonsense; he may be its embodiment, or in fact its apotheosis.
The world now knows, no matter what Obama has lately said under pressure, that his instinctive reaction to these historic events was to abstain from judgment upon them, in order that he might maintain some sort of potential relationship with the leading tyrant in the drama. That tyrant, he declared, is not very much distinguishable from his opponent nor, more important, from the people risking and giving their lives in opposition to the tyranny.
Mr. Obama is a badly flawed man, and one is at a loss to divine what, if anything, is the direction in which his moral compass might point.
In less than three decades we have moved from R. Reagan to B. Obama, and the human race will suffer hugely and at length for the change.

Aryan, I found your comment moving. It also resonates with stories I have heard from some of the Iranian students and scholars I know in this country. I pray for the people of your country and I pray that Mr. Tapper has the courage to ask the president your excellent question tomorrow, or another equally penetrating one.

moderate
btw; Palin ‘prays’ with witchdoctors
and Jindal performs exorcisms
I would think that one of the lessons from Iran right now is that crazy religious people and politics really don’t mix,
regardless of the religion.

Moderate, thank you for your depth of understanding and, above all, your prayers for those brave young souls in Iran; you cannot imagine how much they need it. We have been deeply touched by the outpouring of support from all over the world.
Actually, Jake Tapper is about the only correspondent left that deserves any respect. He once mentioned that he doesn’t go into those briefings on his “knees.” I used to believe that, unfortunately, lately it seems he has succumbed to peer pressure as well.
My problem is that I have known some of the most outstanding journalists in this country; in the days of yore. Often, I used to refer to the press as the watchdog of this the greatest experiment in democracy; but alas!
I, too, hope that penetrating questions are put forth, but I seriously doubt any question of substance would be asked.

“To the people of Iran: You are rich in culture and talent. You have a right to live under a government that listens to your wishes, respects your talents, and allows you to build better lives for your families. Unfortunately, your government denies you these opportunities, and threatens the peace and stability of your neighbors. So we call on the regime in Tehran to heed your will, and to make itself accountable to you. The day will come when the people of Iran have a government that embraces liberty and justice, and Iran joins the community of free nations. And when that good day comes, you will have no better friend than the United States of America.” – President George W. Bush, January 13, 2008.