Guilty Until Proven Innocent?

And this case is supposed to prove exactly what as an example?
Our justice system sometimes convicts an innocent man yet this would not be a reason to close all the prisons.
If he’s really innocent ……

“Our justice system sometimes convicts an innocent man…”
‘Convicts’? This has got nothing to do with convicting anybody of anything. They threw the equivalent of a Red Cross worker in jail for over seven years without a trial of any kind. It makes us look very bad. Why should the rest of the world believe our cause is just when we don’t have the courage to uphold our own principles?

Jason, the danger is we went to far to the extreme violating the very ideals our country was founded upon by torturing. We showed the world in a time of great crises, we are willing to sacrifice all that we stand for.

They deserved what they got, they are journalist, most likely lying about what they were doing there
Gas prices skyrocketing under Obama, media silent

Wow KR- You are more worried about the word “torture” being “thrown around” than you are the fact we did it and the implications of our having done so. Speaks volumes.
If someone told you right after 9/11 we would interrogate these enemy combatants with torture techniques from communist China to get a false confession, you would be skeptical, but they would be correct.
Navy SERE trainers reluctantly trained the personnel at Gitmo on torture techniques and those personnel trained people at Abu Ghraib. The SEREs know these techniques so they could survive the torture (that is what they call it), if captured, in Communist countries like North Korea and at one time the Soviet Union.

“Wow KR- You are more worried about the word “torture” being “thrown around” than you are the fact we did it and the implications of our having done so. Speaks volumes.”
After Abu Garaib, the military went schitzo about what would happen in Iraq. Studies were done, experts consulted, polls were taken. The result? Iraqi’s didn’t really care. They were numbed by the treatment they got from Saddam. AG was no comparison. Thus their opinion was far different than ours. I only point out that there are contrasting opinions DEPENDING ON WHOS PERSPECTIVE YOU ARE COMING FROM. Now you can sit there and proclaim yourself the difinitive opinion of what is and what is not torture, go ahead and believe that, but you only prove to be giving an arrogant sheltered American opinion.
“If someone told you right after 9/11 we would interrogate these enemy combatants with torture techniques from communist China to get a false confession, you would be skeptical, but they would be correct.”
Apparently both Democrats and Republicans were briefed on the techniques before they occurred without objection. And you also assume a false confession. Kalik gave up information to people that actually existed, not some fantasy names. So go ahead, subscribe to talking points and political banter. It makes it true in your mind.
“Navy SERE trainers reluctantly trained the personnel at Gitmo on torture techniques and those personnel trained people at Abu Ghraib. The SEREs know these techniques so they could survive the torture (that is what they call it), if captured, in Communist countries like North Korea and at one time the Soviet Union.”
This is great, I went through Navy SERE in Maine. This is hogwash. SERE instructors train US servicemen, the pilots and aircrew that go through the program. You know what else? They all say, in the real world, your going to be tortured. We are going to stress you a bit, but if your captured for real, you are going to go through far far more brutal interrogations. So don’t preach to me about what you pretend to know about SERE training and interrogation.
For your own information, compare and contrast what Saddam did to US pilots downed in the first Gulf War, to GITMO. Explain on here for everyone to see the differences. I dare you.

Jason:” The techniques we used were most definitely not torture as they caused no extreme pain or permanent injury, only discomfort. ”
Uh, waterboarding can cause death. I think it telling that Hannity offered to be waterboarded for charity and promptly never mentioned it again when tens of thousands of dollars were offered.
And it should be noted that a number of detainees died in US custody, and the Army has classified some of them as homicides – that is they died of wounds sustained during interrogation. The reports have been made public under FOIA requests, google it up. The Army has documented that US interrogators did beat some detainees to death.

Jason:”We used neck braces and specially constructed flexible walls to protect against head, neck, and spine injury when walling someone. I have suffered worse treatment from high school bullies and while I thought it was bad at the time,”
98 detainees died in US custody. 34 of those were deemed homicides by the US army. While the far left would say the US is responsible for all deaths of detainees under their control, a more reasonable assessment of released reports makes it appear that only 8 – 12 of detainees died directly due to injuries sustained during interrogations.
How bad were your school bullies? How many did they kill?

JHW539, since you bring up school bullies killing kids, how about Harris and Klebold? Didn’t they kill 16 or so? How about the VA Tech shooter, I think that was 30 some. Oh and how about since we are talking about innocent people being killed, how about 9/11, I think there were 3000 or so. Madrid and London added more. I am not trying to make any of these deaths equivalent, any wrongful death is abhorrent. Were these men who died in U.S. custody completely innocent of wrongdoing, and what would they do if they had the option of killing their captors?

“Could you cite US pilots downed in the first Gulf War who were held for over 7 years? And is our highest aspiration now merely to not torture as much as Saddam? ”
That is an asinine counter point. You are comparing amount of time spent with the treatment during that time? That is pretty silly.
And then you mention moral comparison as with an adjusted scale. The arguement was what is and what is not considered torture in the realm of opinion. Comparing a car battery hooked up to your testicals so it wouldn’t show on camera to sleep deprivation is a contrast of epic proportion. Yet, you assume by my statement that I suggest we fill the degree right up to Saddams techniques, without me mentioning it at all. Nice jw, excellent debate technique. I feel I am being tortured.

“34 of those were deemed homicides by the US army. While the far left would say the US is responsible for all deaths of detainees under their control, a more reasonable assessment of released reports makes it appear that only 8 – 12 of detainees died directly due to injuries sustained during interrogations.”
Ah the venerable Human Rights Watch article, taking the information of the captives as fact. Also, the Human Rights Watch deemed them homicides, US Army admits they died in captivity. For instance, Human Rights Watch claims that other captives claimed a man was beaten, then he died some 2 weeks later. Human Rights Watch takes the claims as fact, then extrapolates that he died from the beatings. Which may be true, but it may not be true. As their report clearly shows, they tend to say “may have been from” or “could have been from”, yet offer no proof. They point to sloppiness by the Army to conduct post mordem investigations, yet do not show how no post mordem facilities are in located in outlying detention facilities.
This is of course if you only look at their report, which is enough for you.

“Proving the point that America is supposed to be better than these places. There should be nothing to compare or contrast.”
Um… thats the point. There isn’t anything to compare and contrast because the degree of separation is so severe, that the techniques applied by Saddam so flagrantly fit what torture is, there is no comparison. What you have, in your mind, is a fill of interrogation techniques that we employ, and none of what other nations employ, then deem it as torture. By saying that, you incite commonality with what Saddam did. One is most definately torture, the other one of opinion, yet you choose that they carry the same label. So by default, you are comparing them under the same label. What I ask is how similar are they? If we are going to have this giant umbrellas in which we call “torture”, where are its left and right limits? If your job is to interrogate someone suspected of knowledge of impending attack, what are your left and right limits? This was exactly the problem the CIA had after 911 so guess who was put in charge to make that decision? Congress. People YOU voted for or at the very least a party you voted for. What you are saying now is that those congressmen and women, conceded that we shall conduct torture and they knew it at the time. But no congress person would ever concede to us doing torture so the only logical answer is that at the time, it was not considered such. If it is considered such now, then something changed. What? What has changed from then to now? One answer, the politics of it. It’s not difficult to admit this, but you must first acknowledge it. No American involved in this process wanted to anything that would have the label “torture” on it, not knowingly. Look at the story on this page, official was involved in the “torture” at GITMO. So, was he for torture at the time? Of course not, it BECAME torture OVER time. How? Politics. You can keep the wool over your eyes, just know that you are keeping it there.

“Pardon me if I take the word of a Master SERE Instructor and Chief of Training at the SERE School over a person on this Blog stating he went through SERE school. Nance calls arguments like yours “ridiculous on it’s face” and those making it “torture apologist”
Excuse me, I went through the training. I experienced it. During that training we had briefs from Vietnam captives and Gulf War captives. It is CLEARLY explained that what they went through is in no comparison to what we would go through. You think they hooked up car batteries to our testicals in SERE? Hung us by our feet and wrists to separate our shoulders? Beat the bottoms of our feet so we could not walk/run to escape? Broke our fingers one at a time for each question they didn’t get the answer they wanted? Those individuals who lived through Vietnam and Gulf War captivity were brought there to brief us on the experiences we won’t get in SERE, so we have perspective. The techniques we have in SERE are overseen and approved by CONGRESS and you are saying they are torture techniques taught to the CIA? They were consulted because their techniques that we use on US servicemen are APPROVED techniques and not considered torture, unless you think our SERE school is torturing Americans, which is what you are implying. I offer my real world experience going through the course as perspective. You can take that as you wish.
“Proving the point that America is supposed to be better than these places. There should be nothing to compare or contrast.”
Actually by labeling AG and GITMO torture, it is you who are placing these in the same basket. There is no question that what Saddam did is torture, deserving of the label, saying AG and GITMO is torture you are saying they are the same, not acknowledging the any differences.
“If you support the use of water-boarding and these EIT’s on Enemy Combatants then you are okay with another country using it on our servicemen and women.”
Unfortunately, we are one of the few countries in the world that adhere to (mostly) proper treatment of POW’s. (note these are not POWs). This is demonstrated over and over by WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq. I agree, we should hold ourselves to the utmost responsibility. I am not supporting “torture”, though our perspective on what is and what is not torture may differ. When I was a pilot, the biggest fear was having to punch out over bad guy territory because I knew what was in store for me. So you can claim that we are supporting waterboarding being done to US servicemen overseas as a high moral question but reality states rather clearly through history that this moral question is moot. Because our nation takes on those threats around the world that do not adhere to international standards of ethics, we, by nature, will not be treated as such if captured by them. We know this. So for you to pose the question may sound good in your comfy office building behind your computer, but in a cockpit above Iraq it doesn’t hold to reality.
I’m not advocating we treat them the same as they would treat us. I am explaining that in the realm of interrogation, expecting others to treat us as we treat them is disconnected from reality. Waterboarding would be the least of the concerns of a downed airmen or captured soldier.

“And just how are we going to define ‘harm’?”
Ah, so we have a degree of separation on what is harm, but not for torture?
And to answer your question, our nation invests billions of dollars in manpower, man hours, latest technology and equipment, to determine just that. If it is failing to do so, then maybe we should throw more money at it, kinda like education in America.

It’s true that some detainees may be innocent, but if they are suspected, they must be detained because the govt. can’t take that risk.

jw,
We had over 100,000 ‘detainee’s’ in custody in Iraq, Afghan, etc. That 89 died is not good, but it hardly shows evidence of systemic abuse while in US custody.
There is no question some G’mo ‘detainees’ were mistakenly rounded up and held, but they weren’t exactly tourists in Afghanistan either after 9/11.
Putting the hardcore on trial in the U.S. is going to be a joke, and if the President doesn’t and holds them indefinitely without trial, he is guilty of the same argument he threw at the former admin.

KR:”Ah the venerable Human Rights Watch article, taking the information of the captives as fact. ”
Personally, I find the released Army reports (autopsy reports and investigation findings) more reputable than the Human Rights Watch investigations. Since, you know, Human Rights Watch did not have a chance to interview those who died.

===Boumediene says interrogators not once asked him about the original pretext for his arrest in Bosnia in October 2001 ===
And we all know the interrogators are not allowed to say anything in their defense so let’s just interview Boumediene. Or maybe you could ask Pelosi. She is known for telling the truth on these matters.

J House:”That 89 died is not good, but it hardly shows evidence of systemic abuse while in US custody.”
This is true – people are killed in war. The evidence of systemic abuse just starts with the death count. It’s the investigative work being done dredging up memos, reports, autopsy records, etc that serves to raise a systemic question.

“You seem to have it down pat. It’s the rest of us with our eyes wide open.”
Good counter to my argument. Well thought out, concise, with brevity. How could I ever argue it. Let me see if I can counter on the same intellectual level.
Your eyes are not wide open, mine are!

“We have to agree to disagree. We tortured, violated our constitution, violated the Geneva Convention and International Law.”
Your opinion. Have at it. Just of note, constitution applies to US citizens, which these men are not, Geneva Conventions ONLY applies to countries who have signed it, these men come from countries that have not, and International Law recognizes these men as unlawful combatants, not protected by the Geneva Conventions. So you support us choosing to apply it, even when it does not, which is what we did. Telling the world “bah, don’t worry about adhering to the Laws of Armed Conflict because no matter what, you’re covered. So have at it, use civilians as shields and put our prisoners in military targets. You’re covered.”
“I believe it is against our American values and all that we hold dear to have done so. I agree with military leaders that those violations have put our honored men and women in uniform across the globe in greater danger and are responsible for countless deaths.”
Again, your opinion we tortured being the context of your entire paragraph. We’ve been over that. You agree with military leaders who find themselves in positions of power in the current adminstration, echoing the statements of politicians that this has put our soldiers in greater danger accross the globe, as if we weren’t before. Yes, the military has one of those color coded “danger” meters that says, “yup, danger level went up to Orange because of GITMO”. Then they go back to training with live rounds, explosives, and flying in aircraft that just got their funding cut. Good thing we have that GITMO meter to protect us.
“We showed the world by torturing that our most fundamental and constitutional principles can be sacrificed.”
Again, under parameters you deem torture in your opinion. Our consitution wasn’t a document designed to fight wars with. Our consitution was for the governance of its people. Only someone who is disturbed, or wishes to hamstrings this countries ability to defend itself, would believe that we should fight wars under constitution. We fight wars to protect the constitution, to prevent foriegn powers from exerting its will against our people.
“I believe America is better than that. You don’t.”
Thanks for thinking for me. I believe, since you assumed without asking, is that we as a nation of concerned national security individuals, have a process that is in place in which to determine these things. We did have a process in place, that involved congress and experts. That process was followed, with excrutiating detail. And yet, at the time of this going through that process, it was not seen as torture. But now it is. And you have no answer for this. You subscribe to the idea that what we did was torture, yet you are unwilling to cope with the fact that a process was in place, it was followed, it was bi-partisan, and it was not torture at the time of the process. You either do not like these facts, or your brain just locks up thinking about it. Either way, you choose to put out plattitudes under the premise of torture without taking into account about how you came to the conclusion. Thus, my comment that you have wool over your eyes and must enjoy it being there.
And as someone who has served his nation for 13 years in the military and put his life on the line, don’t ever assume you know my feelings about my country and what I vowed to protect.

The United States Constitution does not extend to everyone of the world. Only citizens of the Untied States.

” the Court ruled that detainees at Guantánamo have a constitutional right to file petitions for habeas corpus in U.S. federal court challenging the lawfulness of their detention.”
While I could not disagree more with that decision, these men do have a right to a trial. But that is a right of international law, not of our constitution. This was completely out of the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. They do not have jurisdiction over international affairs and violates the separation of powers. But its done and over now. Future wars will be fought by lawyers in court.

My main concern is that we here in America claim to aspire to these lofty ideals and have many beautifully crafted documents to express them in words, but when a small band of murderous vandals gets a hit on us some of us seem willing to eat those words like popcorn. That is not showing strength to either our enemies or allies.

“You did it again. The waterboarding done to three detainees was not and is not torture according to the laws of the United States.”
According to the Bush legal team hired to specifically give them cover. Why did they need that if it’s not illegal? Spin it all you want – it’s illegal. The US has prosecuted and charged others in the past with war crimes for waterboarding our soldiers. Your going to throw away the Geneva Convention, UN Convention against Torture and our Constitution? How easily you cave allowing the terrorist to win.

Where was your concern when our people had their heads hacked off? Killed, set on fire and dragged though the streets of Fallujah? Why cry for the enemy and shed none for your own?
I don’t understand that you will TAKE the freedoms provided to you but destroy the way it is provided and how many die to keep it for you!!

“It chronicles the use of our torture as the #1 recruiting tool for the foreign fighters in Iraq who murdered our soldiers and civilians who “had their heads hacked off” by them.”
And that is a bunch of bunk. Their #1 recruiting tool always has been, and always will be the Qu’ran itself.
You’d have to be one gullible fool to believe that, people who cut of the heads of their captives are somehow outraged at the sleep deprivation of ours. Give me a break. That is totally engineered for western consumption. Terrorists are recruited through their mosques and Islamic schools, using the Qu’ran as a recruiting tool. They can’t call us weak by our ability to not do what it takes and get our hands dirty, and at the same time be appalled at our treatment of captives. This looney truck just keeps on driving.
Study up a little bit and stop reading stories from rediculous news outlets who spend their time bashing the US.

“Study up a little bit and stop reading stories from rediculous news outlets who spend their time bashing the US.”
Are you saying the Military Commanders who testified before Congress are liars? Why don’t YOU read the testimony and get back to us. I’m sorry KR, but no matter how hard you try – the facts are not going to fit into your pre-determined, strident position. You claim to be military and the majority of them don’t even agree with you.

“Their #1 recruiting tool always has been, and always will be the Qu’ran itself.”
It doesn’t say anywhere in that book that it’s time to sign up and attack the United States. The recruitment is being done by fanatical human interpretation of it.

“Waterboarding is torture, period. I can assure you that once enough physical pain is inflicted on someone, they will tell that interrogator whatever they think they want to hear. And most importantly, it serves as a great propaganda tool for those who recruit people to fight against us.”
–John McCain, Fox News interview, April 20, 2009

“It’s very well known. Called the Tokyo Trials. McCain even mentioned it on the campaign trail when he said this: ” The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding,”
Um… they were starved, beating, died in captivity from malnutrition, forced marches, forced labor. Hung or shot to set an example for others. I’m sure waterboarding was high on the list of attrocities.

‘There is plenty about war and unbelievers in the book that they twist to fit their cause.’
Posted by: KR
no offense intended on anyone’s religious affiliation ..but.. all things being equal,.. you
could be describing the Old Testament bible…..

KR writes: “I’m sure waterboarding was high on the list of attrocities.”
______________________________________
“After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as ‘water cure,’ ‘water torture’ and ‘waterboarding,’ according to the charging documents.”
Politifact, 12/18/07
“The ‘water cure,’ ‘water torture,’ ‘water boarding;’ under whatever name the
technique has long been prized by extreme interrogators for its unique combination of severe
mental trauma and physical pain with, unlike other methods, a lack of perceivable physical
trauma short of autopsy.” — Judge Evan Wallach, “Drop By Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts.”

I don’t believe these terrorists sit around and wonder what the infidels are doing.. they have an agenda of their own.. I keep saying that they have a more organized and goal-oriented approach to their efforts – than we do.
They have a simple message.. kill Americans and their puppets.

“”After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as ‘water cure,’ ‘water torture’ and ‘waterboarding,’ according to the charging documents.”
Politifact, 12/18/07″
……
“The Japanese were pouring water DIRECTLY into their nose and mouth causing ingestation of water into the lungs… When the CIA waterboarded, a rag is placed over the face to PREVENT water from entering the nose and mouth and ingenstation of wate. Japanese water torture was a much harser and dangerous act. — In some of the other Japanese cases, the “water torture” included strapping people to ladders and dunking them face down into swimming pools until they passed out, often resulting in a partial drowning. On the surface, without details, one could easily draw the conclusion that they were the same. However, this would omit the fact that the damage and physical pain caused that deems “torture” came from the ingesting of water into the lungs which would inflict a burning sensation in the lungs, violent coughing that could scour the throat, and nausia/gagging. Ingesting of water is something the CIA went through great lengths to prevent.”
Details details, who needs details…

KR writes: “The Japanese were pouring water DIRECTLY into their nose and mouth causing ingestation of water into the lungs… When the CIA waterboarded, a rag is placed over the face to PREVENT water from entering the nose and mouth and ingenstation of wate. Japanese water torture was a much harser and dangerous act.”
_______________________________
“Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one
guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across
my face and water poured on.”
Capt. Nielsen testimony, Tokyo trials
“Descriptions of water boarding as it is apparently currently applied differ very little from
the techniques applied by the Japanese….
In all cases, whether the water cure was applied by Americans, to Americans, or simply
reviewed by American courts, it has uniformly been rejected as illegal; often with severely
punitive results for the perpetrators.”
– Judge Evan Wallach, “Drop By Drop: Ignoring the History of Water Torture in US Courts”

So if it was torture, how come the review in Congress had no snags? If everyone knew it was torture, how come no one in either party said anything? Where is the answer to this. I see lots of evidence and opinion that it was torture, yet no one came to this conclusion when it was going through congressional review? No one involved in the process raised a flag before it happened? It if is considered torture now, why was it not then? Respond to that Danny, you haven’t yet.

btw, from the same testimony… looks like both, not just the rag. I would imagine the condemnation of the water torture included all of the examples, not just the rag.
“He was turned upside down and water poured up his nose and beaten into
unconsciousness.62
…they would lash me to a stretcher then prop me up against a table with my head down.
They would then pour about two gallons of water from a pitcher into my nose and mouth
until I lost consciousness…63″

If it was so clearly torture, then why did both parties in Congress review it and not do anything about it? This was a bi-partisan review.
Posted by: KR
I am not suggesting that anyone ‘be let off the hook’ for decisions they made……The only way for the truth to be known is a full investigation… the chips then, will fall where they may. This has to be above the usual politics.

I am sure he, along with all the others at Gitmo are innocent and they all were tortured. Just let them all come to America and set up shop in your neighborhood. We can give them a free house, food, medical care and whatever else their hearts desire.

KR
re: ‘by pointing a gun at someone but not pulling the trigger, did you shoot and kill? No, but you did point the gun. Does that constitue a crime as if you had pulled the trigger?
Pointing a gun at someone is a misdemeanor called “brandishing.” But, you could also be charged with assault with a deadly weapon, a felony which carries up to six years in prison.

People did what they thought was right at the time. Posted by: KR
that is the basis for much bad stuff in history, people used that idea to kill a lot of innocents claiming they were in the ‘right’..

Hi KR–
Regarding the legal process andintelligence committess, there’s a book called “The Dark Side: The Inside Story of How the War on Terror Turned into a War on American Ideals.” It does a great job of reviewing how torture was rammed through by Cheney and Addington, often circumventing due process in the executive branch, even bypassing powerful, lifelong hardline conservative military lawyers.
I’ll try to respond more when I’m not at work.

KR writes: It would be hard for anyone today to say in that position they would have done something different.
______________________________
We should never forget that some people did rise up to defend the Constitution, such as Jack Goldsmith of the Office of Legal Counsel, Alberto Mora, General Counsel of the Navy, and FBI agent Jim Clemente who helped stop the outrageous abuse at GITMO.
That’s what we should aspire to.

Thanks for the useful info. It’s so interesting

And my main point was that we should all aspire to have the moral courage to stand up to someone who is abusing their authority and abusing other people, regardless of the conequences. The people I mentioned did so.