Obama Says Coup in Honduras Would Set a “Terrible Precedent”

Jake,
Would you ask the president, to clarify his statement, given that the Honduran Constitution, article 239 not only forbids a President from proposing or campaigning for an amendment to the country’s prohibition on reelection to the office of president, whether just the coup is illegal in his eyes, or also Article 239 which also says that a president that violates said amendment can be removed from power by the government and banned from public service fro 10 yrs.

“article 239 not only forbids a President from proposing or campaigning for an amendment to the country’s prohibition on reelection to the office of president, whether just the coup is illegal in his eyes, or also Article 239 which also says that a president that violates said amendment can be removed from power by the government and banned from public service fro 10 yrs.”
Except the referendum offered was to call for on the legislature to rewrite the Constitution.
In regards to the article, while I understand the desire for Latin American countries to avoid the dictator for life, isn’t it a strange article at least from the perspective of American free speech?
The only ones supporting this coup are American right wingers who prefer a military junta over the messy diplomacy of democratic institutions.

Please explain to me why it took Pres. Obama so long to issue the mildest rebuke to what was going on in Iran for fear of being perceived as meddling in the affairs of a sovereign nation but he can manage to issue a strong statement almost immediately on the internal affairs of another sovereign nation, Honduras. He seems very willing to go out of his way to protect dictators and dictators in the making. What’s happening in Honduras is “terrible”; what happened in Iran, not so much.

Nancy:
Thanks for voting him in all you idiots.
—————————————-
I agree! Thanks for NOTHING! I voted for Palin and whatshisname and will vote for a Romney/Palin ticket in 2012. This “president” can’t be gone soon enough!!!

Obama want to spread all the knowledge that he got from reading the book that Chavez gave his this spring.
Mr. Obama: It’s the economy, STUPID !!!

Of course Obama hates the idea of citizens taking back their country after the President tries to screw with the Constitution! Scary for Obama…

Ryan C. I’ve read your posts for months now. Do you ever post anything that doesn’t have “right wing” in it?

“Ryan C. I’ve read your posts for months now. Do you ever post anything that doesn’t have “right wing” in it?”
Sure but as its my fav tagline not very often.

I don’t get it. Obama can’t meddle in Iranian politics but feels free to meddle in Honduran politics? What gives? Other than Obama has the same position as Chavez and Castro.

“I don’t get it. Obama can’t meddle in Iranian politics but feels free to meddle in Honduran politics? What gives? Other than Obama has the same position as Chavez and Castro.”
Axey late to the party with today’s talking points, cmon catch up dude.
Can you explain how Obama has handled these situations differently?

===Axey late to the party with today’s talking points, cmon catch up dude.===
I’m a dudette. And I wish I had some talking points. The RNC doesn’t seem to be as fast as I am. Maybe I should send out my own talking points?

disclaimer: I have not read all the comments so I don’t know if this point has been made yet.
Obama seems confused as to what has happened in Honduras and is taking the word of Zelaya, Chavez, and Castro that this is a military coup. Zelaya illegally decided to have a constitutional referendum to remove term limits and the Honduran Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional as a referendum can only be started by the Honduran congress. The military only followed the attorney general’s orders to arrest Zelaya for breaking the law and they then installed the next person in line under the Honduran constitution, which happened to be the leader of the congress, not a general. This is most obviously not a coup, but a case of a president with Nixonian delusions that he is above the law. It is pathetic that Clinton and Obama don’t recognize this and support the Honduran congress which is following the rule of law laid out in the constitution.

Excuse?! Not a “terrible precedent” but we have a “TERRIBLE PRESIDENT” !!

“sigh:: Don’t start with the talking points. Know what you are arguing for.”
Its the kneejerk mentaility I am arguing against.
You stated that you are against anything Chavez is for.
If Chavez said the sky was blue would you then argue it is not?

===If Chavez said the sky was blue would you then argue it is not?
Posted by: Ryan C | Jun 29, 2009 7:41:12 PM===
I would go outside and look.

THERE WAS NOT A COUP IN HONDURAS, I ADVICE YOU TO READ THE EDITORIAL BY OGRADY IN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL WHICH IS THE MOST OBJECTIVE I READ FROM REPORTERS OUTSIDE HONDURAS I HAVE READ SO FAR,
WSJ.com – Opinion: Honduras Defends Its Democracy * This article will be available to non-subscribers of the Online Journal for up to seven days after it is e-mailed.
I ALSO SEND YOU THIS IS COMMENT WRITTEN BY A HONDURAN FRIEND OF MINE WHICH IS QUITE RIGHT:
I am forced to write this note in order to clear some things up about the situation that we, the honduran people are living right now, after hearing and seeing all the false news that are going out to the world.
First of all, let me tell you that we have been living a crisis that has gotten worse by the minute due to all the violations of the law commited by the former president Manuel Zelaya who had repeatedly talked about abolishing our constitution and make a new one that favors his political agenda.
Suddenly, all this “talking” began to take form, when he started to mention calling a National Assembly to create the “new constitution” and make a popular poll today to have a backup to his ideas. Not to mention his affiliation with Hugo Chávez from Venezuela, Correa from Ecuador, Morales from Bolivia, Daniel Ortega from Nicaragua and specially, his mentor FIDEL CASTRO from Cuba.
At this point I need to make some important clarifficatios: the Constitution of Honduras CAN BE REFORMED OR MODIFIED IN ITS INTIRETY BUT FOR 3 ARTICLES: THE ONE THAT REFERS TO THE NATIONAL TERRITORY, THE ONE THAT REFERS TO THE PRESIDENTIAL TERM/REELECTION AND THE ONE THAT REFERS TO THE FORM OF OUR GOVERNMENT: DEMOCRACY WITH THREE BRANCHES: LEGISLATIVE, JUDICIAL AND EXECUTIVE.
Now, if you can change everything but that, you need a new constitution to change especifically THAT. And the constitution prohibits to change THOSE ARTICLES because they are the foundation of our country. Trying to change them constitutes crime with no statute of limitations.
The problem got worse when he kept inssisting with this changes to the point of issuing an Executive Decree signed and supported by all his ministers calling the honduran people to participate on a POPULAR POLL to vote YES or NO to call a National Assembly, which is, as I explained, against the law.
Since he would not stop his illegal behavior, the Honduran General Attourney presented a motion before the Supreme Court in order to have the Executive Decree NULE AND VOID.
The Supreme Court, following the constitution and the law, declared this poll ILLEGAL. This SENTENCE was notified to the former president Manuel Zelaya.
We all thought he would reconsider his position, but NO. He said that no one would tell him what to do and that he could go on with his poll, now declared illegal and focussed all his efforts and attention (and all of his ministers), not to mention our fonds to continue with this ideas. Hugo Chávez started now to interfiere in our national affairs, backing up Zelaya.
In Honduras the constitution establishes as popular consult THE REFERENDUM, but it obviously cannot be used for illegal purposes such as what he intended.
The bad started to get worse. We had an earthquake. Many people lost their houses, bridges and buildings were destruyed. But HE did not help or do anything, insted, all the money needed to help in a national catatrofe were used to pay media adds for his “poll”, making stikers, caps, teeshirts, etc. and when the poor people asked for help he cinically said “SEND ME THE BILL AND I’LL SEND HELP”. Of course, he did nothing.
The national disgust grew bigger as he kept saying “I am a comunist first and foremost”.
On top of everything, he did not send the NATIONAL BUDGET to congress and most legal institutions began to need money and he oppenly said he would send it if they support his “poll”. Congress had to make a loan to a private bank to pay salaries. The legal system almost collapsed for lack of funds. Unbelievable.
Time was running and he was deffiantly acting against ALL the system: congress, supreme court, human rights organization, churches, etc.
In this state of things, there was no other option: the National Elections Tribunal declared illicit to continue with the poll to make a new constitution and ordered to confiscate all the material (sent from Venezuela) and warned everyone that it was against the law and they would procede, especcially to the president.
What did he do, since the military already had told him they would not obbey an illegal order? He got a lot of his civilian activists and took over the AIR FORCE BASE and got all the material to conduct his poll no matter what. We watched this in total DISBELIEF. This happened last thursday. IMMEDIATLY, CONGRESS CALLED TO LEGALLY IMPEACH THE PRESIDENT AND DECLARED HIM UNFIT TO CONTINUE IN HIS ROLE, FOR ALL THE LEGAL VIOLATIONS HE WAS COMITTING AND INSTIGATING A POPULAR REVOLT IN THE COUNTRY TO PERPETRATE HIS CRIMES. THIS PROCEDURE, AS IN ANY DEMOCRACY, IS ESTABLISHED IN OUR CONSTITUTION.
Later that night, he called on national television the people to vote today and yelled to the congress “NO ONE CAN STOP ME, I AM THE PRESIDENT”.
At the same time, WE SAW, NO ONE TOLD US, SEVERAL VENEZUELAN AIR FORCE PLANES land in our country and nicaraguan military was entering
through our borders.
So, TODAY, the military, acting by order of congress, detained former president Zelaya and flew him over to Costa Rica, since he was now ussing civilians to confront the military, trying to cause a confrontation..
Later today, we found out that former president Zelaya was going to install his assembly TODAY and abolish congress and supreme court, and his ministers were going to be in charge of it.
We followed the law. He did not. We followed the procedure established by the constitution and the law. The democratic procedure was inforced today in Honduras.
The military is not in charge. There is no coup. We have a president that is the next in line to take charge according to the constitution.
Former president Zelaya broke every posible law in the country, and hundreds of thousands of hondurans called on the streets of out nation to remove him. WE THE PEOPLE OF A DEMOCRATIC HONDURAS DID IT. I MARCHED ON THE STREETS BECAUSE I LOVE MY COUNTRY, ITS OUR RIGHT. WE BELIEVE IN THE RULE OF LAW.
That is why we do not understand all the FALSE INFORMATION that is going out to the world. We hope THE WORLD gets to know the truth.
I’m a proud honduran, who believes in the TRUTH.
Please help me get this out so that everyone knows what happened in Honduras today.
—— End of Forwarded Message

Takes the President DAYS to respond to student protests in Iran and yet he comes to the defense of a leftist dictator in a matter of hours…ummmmm

“THERE WAS NOT A COUP IN HONDURAS, I ADVICE YOU TO READ THE EDITORIAL BY OGRADY IN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL WHICH IS THE MOST OBJECTIVE I READ FROM REPORTERS OUTSIDE HONDURAS I HAVE READ SO FAR,”
The WSJ editoiral page as objective?
ROFLMAO!

When it comes to the situation in Honduras, I don’t even know which side to believe – one is saying that removing the president was legal and necessary to ensure the efficient running of that’s country’s democracy, the other saying it is an illegal coup.
The only thing that’s very clear these days is that we now live in a world where the president of the United States is in full agreement with Hugo Chavez on a foreign policy issue.
Whoever saw that one coming?

===Arguing against a military coup is somehow wrong headed?===
Doesn’t a military coup mean the military is in charge? Since that isn’t the case, you should just call it coup.

Silly Me . …
President Chavez has said he will support the government with military force.
President Obama has said nothing of the sort. President Obama is in line with almost all other countries, including those in latin america, expressing concern about the military removing the elected government of a democracy.
Let’s try to be fair and accurate here.

Ryan, you have just proven your naivete by citing all those other great bastions of democracy in South America and oh yeah, the UN too. Get a clue, don’t just assume that because Obama said it, that means it is right. I believe that is just as kneejerk as anything you accused Axey of.

Sounds like Obama is worried about it happening here. Quite frankly, this is their business, not ours.

What exactly is it President Obama has said that is so outrageous?
Please provide the quotes . ..

A peaceful way is to butt out and mind your own country’s business before you run out of paper to run the money printing presses.

danita asks: “What exactly is it President Obama has said that is so outrageous?
Please provide the quotes . ..”
danita, please refer to above article: “I think it would be a terrible precedent if we start moving backwards into the era in which we are seeing military coups as a means of political transition, rather than democratic elections”
Obama is siding with a president who broke the law and is opposed by his own party, and was arrested by the military, but then the military stepped back and allowed the leader of congress who is next in line under their constitution to take the place as the president. This is not a military coup and Obama is yet again siding against the people of a country who want freedom from “presidents for life.” That is what is outrageous.

ryan says: “I guess you prefer the United Fruit days”
To what are you referring as the “United Fruit days?”

“To what are you referring as the “United Fruit days?”
And you called me naive and you are unaware of United Fruit?

Back to the original issue, ryan says: “Right wingers cheer the military coup.”
This is not a military coup as the democratically elected congress and the Supreme Court have affirmed the appointment of the former leader of the congress as the president pro-tem. A military coup is one where a general decides he wants to be the “leader for life.” Where is your confusion on this issue?

“I think it would be a terrible precedent if we start moving backwards into the era in which we are seeing military coups as a means of political transition, rather than democratic elections”
What a terrible thing for the President to say! How horrible!
Oh, by the way, the President of Honduras was DEMOCRATICALLY elected – by the people. If he committed a crime, have him arrested and put on fair trial; not deposed by a military coup with no recourse to law.
Most of the world has come out with the same view – Democratically elected leaders should not be removed by military coups – regardless of who the military puts in place to rule.
And you condemn our President for expressing support for democracy?
I think you condemn President Obama for everything he does – it’s a knee-jerk reaction.
Wolf! Wolf! The sky is falling!

HONDURAS DONT WANT TO BE LIKE VENEZUELA
WE WANT PEACE

Interesting that Obama did not want to speak out against the unfair elections in Iran, but is backing the Honduran president that was removed for trying to extend his term in office beyond the limits set by their constitution. Why is he supporting these types of leaders, and ignoring the will of the people of those countries?

“Zelaya, a leftist, was detained and sent into exile in a dispute over his push to extend presidential terms. The coup is Central America’s biggest political crisis since the U.S. invasion of Panama in 1989.”

Seems strange that Obama wants to call this an “illegal” coup. It wasn’t a “coup” at all. The Honduran Congress had already impeached him, the military just removed him from office (and the country LOL).
Seems Obama and the MSM don’t want anyone figuring this out. This was a simple case of the Congress following the constitution and impeaching a President who wasn’t.
And the really good part of this, is the Congress that impeached Zelaya is made up of a majority of his own party.
Perhaps the fact taht Zelaya was a socialist has something to do with it? Naw, I’m sure Obama would have been just as upset if it had been a staunch conservative. LOL

We condemn the military coup and kidnapping of the democratically elected president of Honduras, Manuel Zelaya. On Sunday 28 June, President Manuel Zelaya Rosales was kidnapped, removed from his home by force, rendered incommunicado for several hours and expelled from his country. Soldiers also seized Honduran foreign minister, Patricia Rodas, and the ambassadors of Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela. The military and coup conspirators are trying to suppress popular demonstrations and news by blanket military presence, curfews and intimidation of reporters.

Zelaya was arrested by dozens of army soldiers and flown to Costa Rica before being exiled in Nicaragua on Sunday, ahead of a planned vote on constitutional reform.
Heads of states from across the world have slammed the recent overthrow of the Honduran government in Latin America, demanding a swift return of Zelaya to power.

Jason . ..
It seems like everyone is in agreement except Drudge and his followers.

“…to support the government of ousted President Manuel Zelaya,…”
It was HIS GOVERNMENT that impeached him. My lord, the world has gone nuts. They are so scared of offending any left wing zealot that they conveniently skip over the total legalities of the situation.
Yes, some people don’t like the ouster. Doesn’t mean it was illegal.
Just as if Obama did something totally illegal and unconstitutional, and Congress impeached him I’m sure there would be lots of protests and damning by the world’s governments.

Can you imagine if Bush’s Democratic and Republican enemies voted to impeach him and used the military to physically remove him from the WH before his term was up? Yeah all the Republicans who voted for him would just accept that!

I know exactly why Obama condemned this immediately and did not the revolution in Iran. It is plain and simple. He is stripping our Constitution here in the U.S., and he would not support the Iranian people, because he does not want to be seen to support a revolution. In the Honduras situation, their leader ignored their constitution, and their Supreme Court rightly gave the right to ouster him with the military. You see, if we don’t wake up here in the U.S., this government will dictate us. We should all learn by these two instances, of what freedom is. And what ours means. If we don’t, then we become what have always scoffed at becoming…a third world country.

”The era of instability and military regimes of the 1970s and 1980s is apparently not a thing of the past as we had thought, since it was a civic-military alliance that was responsible for this setback to democracy – the ouster of President Zelaya,”
1) Zelaya started a referendum to change the constitution.
2) When challenged in the Supreme Court, the court ruled the referendum was unconstitutional.
3) Zelaya went ahead and set the wheels in motion for the referendum anyway.
4) Congress, with a majority of Zelaya’s own party in control, decided that it was an impeachable offense, and in a DEMOCRATIC VOTE IAW THEIR CONSTITUTION impeached him.
5) The Supreme Court ordered his removal.
6) The Army removed him and then went back to their barracks.
7) The Congress then selected the man who filled the position designated by the Constitution to be next in line, the President pro-temp until new elections could be held.
8) Demonstrations occured and the President requested the army to control them.
Now, other than the army’s actions being a bit questionable, can someone please explain how you call this a coup? For it to have been that, then it would have been a conspiracy so great that it included a large majority of Congress, a majority of the Supreme Court, and the Army.
Zelaya, as President, was attempting to do something not only illegal, but unconstitutional. The Supreme Court verified that, and Congress decided that no one man, President or not, was above the law.

Worldwide condemnation has followed the coup that unseated President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras on Sunday, June 28. Nation-wide mobilizations and a general strike demanding that Zelaya be returned to power are growing in spite of increased military repression. One protester outside the government palace in Honduras told reporters that if Roberto Micheletti, the leader installed by the coup, wants to enter the palace, “he had better do so by air” because if he goes by land “we will stop him.”

The question is now posed: What if Obama decided to do the exact same thing by taking change directly to the American populace and simply sidestepping all that the Constitution stands for? Could it be that Obama is planning to do the same thing if and when it is discovered that he is not a natural born citizen of these United States? Will he then declare that he legally got elected fair and square because the American populace elected him president and the merits of the Constitution have no say in the matter? Will he claim that because he got the popular vote that the Constitution’s Article II section 1.5 does not apply to him? We have no right to judge another nation’s decision to remove a would be dictator. We have no right to meddle in a nation’s right of self governance. We have no right to ostracize a nation because of one man’s nefarious power grabbing action that would have been carried out if the Honduran Supreme Court, Congress, and Military had not taken the necessary steps to save their democracy. As far as the matter is concerned no government was toppled. One man is not a government, Mr. President.

sp1der1, great simple explanation for danita and ryan, it is just too bad that they still will not get it. The other point that I would like to make is that Zelaya could not get permission to have the election so he went to Hugo Chavez to have him print ballots and then when those were confiscated by the attorney general, Zelaya and his supporters broke into the building where they were being held and tried to distribute them anyway. This shows a pretty blatant disregard for the rule of law and should raise alarm flags for the Obama administration. I am disgusted that they are just going along with international opinion instead of standing up for democracy.

Mike, I fear that you have ruined your credibility. The conspiracy theories about Obama not being a natural born citizen are a joke and not relevant. If I am wrong I apologize, but you do a disservice to yourself by including something like that in this discussion.

HONDURAS has shown the whole world what PREVENTION means. Prevent new TYRANTS from rising to oppress the people. So don’t knock it, LEARN from it. did you forget this. How many enemies Democracy has now?? They are multiplying THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS MY FRIEND.

Perhaps Obama is thinking of doing away with Amendment 22 of OUR Constitution?

I’m a libertarian. Give me the right story and I’ll rip the snot out of GWB also. This isn’t a left-wing, right-wing thing. The President Pro-Tem is a member of Zaleya’s party. He’s a far left liberal leaning toward socialist also. Explain that?
This is a right and wrong thing. Sorry that the leaders of the world perhaps see the same fate handed to them and therefore don’t want to see any precedents set. There can be no other explanation.
Either that or all the news coming out of Columbia in the days before the “ouster” were lies.

I wish he would focus on jobs Posted by: Nancy | Jun 29, 2009 6:10:21 PM
He cannot because he cannot do anything about it. His stimulus plan is and will continue to be an abject failure.
When the A priorities are too hard, you always focus on the C’s ’cause they are easier to work on.

I keep reading articles and posts calling this an illegal act just because he was elected. People need to remember that Hitler was also elected.
I would like to share an excerpt from the Honduran Constitution.
Article 42 numeral 5 of the Honduran Constitution: The right of citizenship is lost if one tries to urge, to promote or to support the continuance or the re-election of the President of the Republic.
Hondurans have a 4 year term written in stone in their Constitution to prevent their country from becoming a dictatorship again.
Mel Zelaya was attempting to strong arm his way into another term using the same tactics as other dictators in Latin America, such as Hugo Chavez, Evo Morales, and Rafael Correa.
In Honduras only the Congress has the right to call for a referendum to change the Constitution, not the President. When the President tried to do this he was told it was illegal and he could not. The Supreme Court ruled on it and declared it illegal. Congress agreed with the ruling of the Supreme Court.
When Zelaya didn’t get the results he wanted from the Supreme Court he tried to force the head of the military to carry out his “referendum” in violation of the Constitution and the laws of Honduras. The head of the military General Vasquez refused to, stating that it had been declared illegal by the Supreme Court and to do so would be breaking the law.
At this point Zelaya had been told by the legislative and the judicial branches of his government as well as the military that what he was doing was illegal. Again he didn’t get his way, so instead of obeying the ruling of the Supreme Court and the wishes of the freely elected representatives of the government, Zelaya publicly declared that he was going to go forward with his illegal “poll” anyway.
He started by taking many of his supporters and storming an air force base where the ballot boxes were and taking them by force. He then proclaimed that the poll would take place on Sunday despite what had been ruled by the Supreme Court and the Congress.
Meanwhile, other Latin American leaders who have absolutely no interest in Democracy, Chavez, Castro, Morales, Ortega, voiced their support for Zelaya. Several even threatening military action if Zelaya was removed from office. Strangely silent but true to form the Obama administration had no comments on the situation, not wanting to meddle in the affairs of foreign countries. Honduras faced with having their country stolen from them by a Chavez backed dictator while the US stood by and watched chose to act.
The Honduran Constitution which so many people seem to be worried about, thinking it has been violated with the removal of Mel, actually allows for the removal of a President. The Congress can take a vote, which they did and unanimously voted to remove President Zelaya from office, declaring him unfit to govern. A Congress I might add that has members of his own party as the majority. Then the Supreme Court, according to the laws of the Honduran Constitution gave a court order to have him arrested and removed from office.
What many of you need to understand is that Honduras is not the United States, it is an extremely poor country. Honduras uses it’s military for many jobs of law enforcement, because they can’t afford to have large police forces, and their Constitution allows for that. So what the military did was not illegal. It was not a military coup. They were only carrying out the orders of the Supreme Court and the Congress.
As soon as Zelaya was removed, the person who was next in line to become President according to the Constitution, the President of the Congress, Roberto Micheletti, was sworn in by the Congress. As soon as he was sworn in he declared that he would only serve out the rest of the current term and free elections would be held in November as scheduled. I defy anyone hear to find me a single example of a military coup d’etat where this has happened.
I find the response of our current administration to be, at best, inconsistent. For weeks Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama stood silent as peaceful protestors were gunned down in the streets of Iran, claiming they didn’t want to meddle in the affairs of foreign countries. Obama and Hillary hold comments about a country where a tyrant held on to power through an obviously rigged election. Yet in a country where a tyrant in waiting tries to usurp the Constitution to hold on to power and is thrown out by the legal process of that countries Constitution, the Obama administration immediately begins to meddle, siding with Chavez and Castro.
All of the facts have been laid out before you to decide on your own. If you can’t see the truth of what really happened it’s because you don’t want to.

Danita, say hello to the new World Order. Welcome it, love it, and learn to live with it. Where is the world’s respect for a nation’s sovereignty? The governments of the world are only proving one thing here tonight, folks. They are showing the world their true colors. Politicians saving their own. These so called world leaders must all be members of the same club of exclusivity. Wouldn’t surprise me if they considered themselves entitled to the positions of power they now have.

Yes Mike . .. all the governments in the world have been corrupted into the New World Order . . . except for of course Honduras.

Yes Mike . .. all the governments in the world have been corrupted into the New World Order . . . except for of course Honduras.
Posted by: danita
. . .and the Russians.

Some of you don’t seem to realise not all democracies have limitations on the number of terms served.
In Canada and the United Kingdom for instance, you can stand for election as many times as you like for leader of the country.
And if the people chose you, then you will lead the country. It’s called democracy.
It is not a ‘communist’ plot as some of you seem to automatically think.

===Posted by: flopez | Jun 29, 2009 10:35:03 PM===
Actually, Honduras has a constitution that limits the terms served. Just like the US. I suspect there are those who would like to overlook that if they thought Obama would benefit.

“Congress voted to accept what it said was Zelaya’s letter of resignation” . .
Oh yes, that’s all legal of course except Zelaya totally denies having written any such letter.
Of course, once Zelaya has ‘resigned’ what choice would Congress have but to elect someone else . .. .
It would be their duty wouldn’t it? They simply had to keep the country under control, wouldn’t you think?

A huge number of american jobs were ‘outsourced’ to China, India and other 3rd world countries during the Bush administration.
The Bush administration also sold the country in debt bonds to China in order to pay for his neo-con wetdream – the attack on Iran.
Bush has already gone a long way towards your ideal of American as a 3rd world country. We don’t need to know about his promises or his ideals – we saw what he did.
danita | Jun 29, 2009 10:41:35 PM
++++++++++++++++++
I’ll sum this up. I believe you are saying: Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush…..

flopez . ..
As far as America becoming a 3rd world country, under the Bush administration many, many american jobs were ‘outsourced’ to China, India and other developing countries.
Bush sent the country well on its way.
And then he sold off billions in debt bonds to China, further diminishing the nation, so he could fund his neo-con attack on Iraq, which killed tens of thousands of Iraqis and maimed many thousands more.
This sent the United States into huge debt to the Chinese.
The past is harsh on Republicans, but its real.

no Jen . . . the part that goes beyond “Bush” that you’re choosing to ignore are the facts of what happened under that administration . … as well as other informative words like ‘Republican’, ‘right wing’ and ‘neo-con’.

no Jen . . . the part that goes beyond “Bush” that you’re choosing to ignore are the facts of what happened under that administration . … as well as other informative words like ‘Republican’, ‘right wing’ and ‘neo-con’.
Posted by: danita | Jun 29, 2009 11:02:02 PM
++++++++++++++
I hear ya. Bush, Bush, Bush……

The International community was taken by surprise, what happened on Sunday was all done under the Honduran Law. Expresident Jose Manuel Zelaya, was defying Honduran Law, He was pretending to conduct an illegal act, trying to introduce a new constitution. The supreme court of Honduras had declared illegal, and all the rest of the political powers in Honduras. It was not a coup, We Hondurans have a new president, and we advise the international community to be aware of the threats made by Venezuela president Hugo Chavez Frias. Please to the entire international press do an investigation of the news before making them public. I REPEAT THERE WAS NO COUP IN HONDURAS.

no one who supports the current administration has ANY room to talk about the debt. obama has put us further into debt than EVERY OTHER PRESIDENT COMBINED since the founding of the republic. That includes both world wars. I know somehow it must be Bush’s fault. At least Bush was only walking toward socialism now we have boarded the bullet train. But at least people are finally waking up. THe real power in this country resides with the people and they are getting fed up and will guide us back to a true CONTITUTIONAL republic which we are NOT at this time. Anyone who believes we are I can site the many ways we are not if you would like, just ask

I find it very confusing that the US and apparently the rest of the world is standing behind Zelaya after the Honduran Congress voted unanimously to remove him from office for his misconduct and for repeated violations of the constitution and the law and disregard of orders and judgments of the institutions.
It doesn’t make any sense.

Danita this is just for your dear
The Obama administration unveiled program details of its $3.5 trillion federal budget for the fiscal year beginning in October. Conservatives, don’t be fooled. Obama’s Socialist Budget is the largest budget ever proposed by a President with the largest deficits in American history. President Obama and his team are lying about their 1500-page budget and their supposed “budget cuts.”
In fact, if the Obama team was honest, the budget might actually be called something like this:
Obama claims that after Congress passed its budget resolution, his team scoured the budget and saved $17billion from next year’s federal budget. Unfortunately, much of what the White House is sending up in its documentation of cuts was already proposed as part of the budget outline that the White House already sent up to Congress in February.
They aren’t cutting the budget. In fact, Obama’s budget is over $400 billion larger than the government’s 2009 budget and $100 bill larger than the bloated budget resolution Congress just passed. This is the SAME budget as released two months ago. In fact, President Obama’s bill still includes:
- The $2 Trillion Carbon Tax
- It adds over $9 trillion to the national debt-doubling the total debt accumulated from the start of our country through the Bush presidency
- It includes the massive socialized healthcare overhaul
- It even ignores the $3.4 trillion budget Congress passed and reverts to Obama’s original $3.5 trillion budget.
Simply put, Obama’s team is lying. As the Chicago Tribune reported, the “news” of the budget cuts grabbed the headlines even thought the supposed “cuts” were all in Obama’s original budget! There is nothing new. No new budget cuts. Obama has simply repackaged his bloated budget-ignoring Congress’ meager reductions-as a fiscally responsible document.

Danita just another little tidbit
Bush Deficit vs. Obama Deficit in Pictures
Posted March 24th, 2009 at 10.20am in Ongoing Priorities.
President Barack Obama has repeatedly claimed that his budget would cut the deficit by half by the end of his term. But as Heritage analyst Brian Riedl has pointed out, given that Obama has already helped quadruple the deficit with his stimulus package, pledging to halve it by 2013 is hardly ambitious. The Washington Post has a great graphic which helps put President Obama’s budget deficits in context of President Bush’s.
What’s driving Obama’s unprecedented massive deficits? Spending. Riedl details:
■President Bush expanded the federal budget by a historic $700 billion through 2008. President Obama would add another $1 trillion.
■President Bush began a string of expensive finan­cial bailouts. President Obama is accelerating that course.
■President Bush created a Medicare drug entitle­ment that will cost an estimated $800 billion in its first decade. President Obama has proposed a $634 billion down payment on a new govern­ment health care fund.
■President Bush increased federal education spending 58 percent faster than inflation. Presi­dent Obama would double it.
■President Bush became the first President to spend 3 percent of GDP on federal antipoverty programs. President Obama has already in­creased this spending by 20 percent.
■President Bush tilted the income tax burden more toward upper-income taxpayers. President Obama would continue that trend.
■President Bush presided over a $2.5 trillion increase in the public debt through 2008. Setting aside 2009 (for which Presidents Bush and Obama share responsibility for an additional $2.6 trillion in public debt), President Obama’s budget would add $4.9 trillion in public debt from the beginning of 2010 through 2016.

Great posts, Chris. Facts are a virtual stab in the side of socialists’ views.

Thank you sir. The truth alwasy wins. Well except in the media it seems. LOL

By the way, I was just wondering if anyone could point out to me in history where socialism has worked? It’s a trick question, I already know the answer. That’s why we need to worry about the Obama administration.

Oh, precisely, Danita. When the Dems took control of the House and Senate, that’s when it all came crumbling down starting in 2006. Maybe you forgot to mention that. Just helping you out.

And here are the national debt figures DIRECTLY from the U.S. Department of the Treasury, Bureau of the Public Debt.
09/30/2008 10,024,724,896,912.49
09/30/2007 9,007,653,372,262.48
09/30/2006 8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
The Bush administration ran up the national debt $4.5 trillion and this is before his bail out moneys for the banks and financial institutions (TARP).
This isn’t projection or guesswork. This is the historical record of the Bush administration.

chris it’s admirable you admit you got the Congress information wrong – seriously. But please, next time do the research before you post anymore nonsense.

No limits on how many times a person could stand for election would bring Venezuela in line with other democracies like Canada and the United Kingdom.
By the way, President Chavez LOST the referendum.
You people need to do some research instead of using slogans and incorrect information.

I’m trying to understand this. So, Danita, you approve of Obama doubling, tripling, quadrupling, etc. the Bush debt then? It’s OK for Obama to do it? Maybe he has a smoother hand, and knows way better where to send our tax money, right?

chris . . .
exactly, the Bush administration grossly overspent and cut taxes – thus not having the ability to pay for what they did. They ‘charged’ it to the future. Who did they think was going to pay?
The other slight problem is despite this overspending and accumulated national debt – the Bush administration left office with the U.S. economy in virtual free-fall. This is a situation described by most economists as the worst since the great depression.
I don’t know if you know what that means, but if you look around you . . . you might see real families losing their homes, losing their jobs, out of work, businesses closing, factories shutting down . .. and so on. That is what was left at the end of the Bush administration.
President Obama (and many other world leaders) are attempting to address this economic disaster. Will they be successful? Damned if I know – I don’t pretend to know. Do I condemn him or the others for their effort? Not at all. I want it to succeed.
Do I think a overindulgent consumer society based on wasting resources and operating off of debt can sustain itself – no.
Do I think not wasting energy and not wasting resources is a good idea? Yes.

chris you’ve already proven yourself untrustworthy for actual truths – facts as they are known, please don’t start stooping to insult and slander.
I do NOT defend everything President Obama does.
The extremists on here are the people who comes in almost every day to call the President names, insult him and his family, and smear EVERYTHING he does.
You’ve seen those people, I’ve seen those people.
They are hate spammers with an agenda to smear the President. No respect for them whatsoever.

p.s – chris – every deficit adds to the national debt. a deficit is when a government spends more than it takes in (in taxes, etc). Any yearly deficit adds to the national debt.

And that same DEFICIT has been TRIPLED under Obama for the same reason he spent what we didnt have. And dont say he had to to save the economy that is a blatant lie. Many very educated economists said he should just let the market correct and it would be over quickly maybe a little or alot painful instead now we have slow and painful. And the reason that people are losing their homes and such ISNT because of a president its because of the people who got greedy and a non federal federal reserve who allowed a bubble in the houseing market to continue even though they KNEW what would happen just so they could get rich at the expense of the people. This had nothing to do with BUSH dont misunderstand me I dont like bush much more than obama. I think he sould be in jail for tapping americans phones without a warrant. But obama is turning this country into a european socialism and THAT will destroy the greatness of this country. Sorry no offense. THis country has given more to the world in its short history than any other country ever and in my opinion (very possibly biased) more than ALL other countries. think of all the inventions. the aid we give both public and private every year is MORE THAN THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED. The founding fathers were well aware of the idea of social justice (socialism) and knew from history and common sence IT WONT WORK. what they did was try to ensure to the greatest degree possible equal chance to succed and yes some wont but that is a fact of life and it is wrong to take from someone what he has earned to give it to someone who hasnt. that is goverment THEFT.

manuel zelaya is like how a republican would be here. their mentalities, are kind of alike its kind of confusing. because they are supposed to be conservative.but know he want to be like chavez.

clint . .. remember when President Bush said the Constitution was ‘just a piece of paper’ . .. wasn’t that hilarious!

Danita if the debt included the income then it would be THE SAME AS THE DEFICIT> this is from the same site of the treasury you went to
You can think of the total debt as accumulated deficits plus accumulated off-budget surpluses. The on-budget deficits require the U.S. Treasury to borrow money to raise cash needed to keep the Government operating. We borrow the money by selling securities like Treasury bills, notes, bonds and savings bonds to the public.
The debt is the total money spent. the deficit is the money we have to BORROW to have to spend. AND that is what obama has tripled. as for those who try to smear everything obama does they arent extremeists and extremist is a person who will hurt others because of a radical view. I cant think of ANYTHING i agree with obama about but I wont try to hurt him or anyone who supports him because of my views. A terrorist is an extremist. As for your little quip about me and the facts for someone to defend obama when he has been caught in so many blatant lies just shows that you will ignore the truth to support your side. The TRUTH is he HAS SPENT MORE THAN ALL OTHER PRESIDENTS COMBINED
I showed you that with the quote I put up and I can give you links to any number of others. THAT IS FACT.
HE HAS TRIPLED THE DEBT BUSH LEFT. that too is a FACT. again I can send you the links. I may every now and again hear something and just believe it because it goes along with what I believe BUT when shown I am wrong I freely admit it. You however still cling to your deniles even after I showed you the evidence. So what does that say about YOU?

“The debt is the total money spent.”
chris, this is just not true . . .
The total money spent each year is the budget, plus overspending.
The national debt is the cumulative amount of money we owe.
The national debt under the Bush administration went from approx $5 trillion to approx $10 trillion. That’s how far in debt the country went under Bush.

I have those facts as well. Danita, how do you sleep at night, knowing the truth, yet pounding through your head such propaganda? It must make for long, long nights of training yourself to ignore the facts. By the way, how is your country doing?

You didn’t attack me, but you called Chris untrustworthy. I have the same FACTS. That I went out to find. You still did not answer me though, how is your country?

ANd even granting that anything like our budget I may missundertand the fact that obama has in less than a year TRIPLED bushes largest deficit how do you think he is not going to produce more of debt? The nubers he used to support the non stimulating stimulus bill were so far off that many are calling it a blatant LIE. The only thing that bill did was fund forty years of democratic socialist dreams.
I would like you to tell me one way he has improved the economy?

clint . . . I called chris ‘untrustworthy’ after he posted incorrect information about who held congress and when – which chris was decent enough to admit to, and which I complimented him on.
And no, I do not trust chris’ facts enough to think they are reliable. He has already admitted to getting things wrong, and he was blasting out that information as if it was the REAL truth.

the information I posted was directly from the source I can send you the link if you would like. I suppose you have never been wrong.

Oh good, so ‘right winger’ is now a bad term. And ‘neo-con’ . .. excellent. At one time people would have been proud of those labels.

I think this may have been nothing more than the constitutional removal of a president. If so Obama should keep his nose out of it.

Of course Obama completely ignores the part about Zelaya trying to run for an extra term in defiance of the Honduran Supreme Court which had already stricken down Zelaya’s attempt to change the Constitution and allow him to run again. Could it be because he’s already considering running for a third term himself?

Thomas . .. I don’t think President Obama would have ignored anything. I’m sure the State Department and others took everything into account.

The Congressional Budget Office, CBO, which is non-biased has all these numbers…and by the way, before I go on. AGAIN, why are you more concerned about Obama, than you are of your own country? I’m extremely curious.

also clint . .. good grief; the last thing I want is for the country to collapse. I have children man, I want their future to be good. Tell you one thing, the economy was left like horse crap by the last President and he referred to the Constitution as ‘just a piece of paper’.
I like the new guy, I like the push towards cleaner energy and less waste, I like the idea of alternatives to large corporations controlling health care, I support better relations and better diplomacy with peoples around the world (backed up whenever necessary), I’m not a racist, I think most people just want a good life for their families and their kids, I don’t believe Obama has an evil or naive agenda . . .. I am SOOOO glad Bush is gone and the Republicans.
At any rate, I’m not going to condemn the new guy 6 months into his term – I like him and his family and I like most of the policies I see being formulated.
His attempts to establish dialogue with common people in the Islamic world has been brilliant – talking to them about common values and the danger of extremists. I think extremists here are just as dangerous – Christians believing in the ‘end days’, all of that defeatist nonsense.
At any rate, I digress.

Okay, where are the figures you’re looking at on this CBO page?

of course, that bill has not even been passed by the Senate yet . .

“President Manuel Zelaya, rousted out of bed in his pyjamas Sunday and briskly bundled over the border to Costa Rica, was himself not exactly burdened by respect for the constitution, as his recent actions show. Although his public support was shown in polling to be down near 30 per cent, Zelaya had decided he needed to change the constitution to allow himself to seek a second term in office, in elections this November. So he proposed a “constituent assembly” to rewrite the constitution.
When Congress and the country’s highest court rejected that, Zelaya decided he would hold a non-binding referendum to show support for the idea. He ordered the army to distribute ballot papers; when forces chief Romeo Vásquez Velázquez refused, Zelaya led a mob of supporters to an air force base and confiscated the ballots. He also fired the army chiefs – who decided to oust him, instead. A leading congressman from Zelaya’s party, Roberto Micheletti, was sworn in as acting president.
So it’s not easy to identify any good guys in this squabble. But Zelaya’s actions were within the law, though only barely. The coup was not, and international condemnation has been swift and full-throated. The new government will have few friends, in Central America or elsewhere. It doesn’t deserve any.”
Interesting take on the entire scene. Could it possibly be ‘truthful and objective’?

If Obama keeps doing what he is doing in this country, Obama will undo every good thing this country has done and destroy the workforce America has. Honduras got rid of an hugo chavez, so I am proud they stood up for their constitution and removed the cancer. Long live Freedom and the pursuit of happiness which is what obama wants to destroy.

“Why are you more concerned about Obama, than you are of your own country? I’m extremely curious.” Clint
That is a very good question. One I’ve been wondering too… Why do some, like Chris “Danita” Matthews, think it is their job to make this president successful.
To me, it looks like the soft bigotry of low expectations. As if this president is not strong enough on his own to do the job without his minions and followers attacking his critics at every turn.

What happened to “I am not going to meddle?” Does he only mean that when it doesn’t help his agenda???

TCT..This is a “free” site open to all who cares to comment..Who really knows who danita…ryan c…jhw..or others really are…I take this site for what it is intended….entertainment period.. Posted by: Parallex View | Jun 30, 2009 12:52:40 PM
I’m with you all the way – except the entertainment part. I’ll look elsewhere for that. Just voicing my opinion on what’s going on. I’m used to blogs where the owner isn’t afraid to intercede. This is my first “network” blog so I guess they evolve differently.

“So it’s not easy to identify any good guys in this squabble. But President Zelaya’s actions were within the law, though only barely. The coup was not, and international condemnation has been swift and full-throated. The new government will have few friends, in Central America or elsewhere. It doesn’t deserve any.”

===will the military remove him?
Posted by: Terry | Jun 30, 2009 2:41:35 PM===
Wouldn’t he still need to be impeached? I don’t think the military would remove him. Too conditioned to the chain of command and Obama is the top link. Anyway, I can’t really see someone in the US trying to remain in office after being impeached. Even with popular support.

Hi Alexy,
Good point. But what if the Supreme Court rules for ineligibility, how can the Congress impeach, since he would not really be the President? Even if impeachment is an option, what if the Congress refuses to act since it is so heavily weighted with the Presidents party? What recourse would there be for the American People? Doesn’t the military swear an oath to protect and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic?

Hi Alexy,
Perhaps you are right. But considering the seriousness of possible consequences, it is apparent the eligibility questions should have been vetted more thoroughly by a free and independent media.

===Posted by: Terry | Jun 30, 2009 3:32:13 PM===
While I agree with you that our press did a poor job of vetting him, I am not on board the he isn’t eligible wagon. I was just responding to your hypothetical, which is an interesting question. What would happen if a president was impeached and refused to leave office?

Terry – that is your view that he was legally replaced . .. the military coup has been almost universally condemned. I found the following newspaper report informative.
“President Manuel Zelaya, rousted out of bed in his pyjamas Sunday and briskly bundled over the border to Costa Rica, was himself not exactly burdened by respect for the constitution, as his recent actions show. Although his public support was shown in polling to be down near 30 per cent, Zelaya had decided he needed to change the constitution to allow himself to seek a second term in office, in elections this November. So he proposed a “constituent assembly” to rewrite the constitution.
When Congress and the country’s highest court rejected that, Zelaya decided he would hold a non-binding referendum to show support for the idea. He ordered the army to distribute ballot papers; when forces chief Romeo Vásquez Velázquez refused, Zelaya led a mob of supporters to an air force base and confiscated the ballots. He also fired the army chiefs – who decided to oust him, instead. A leading congressman from Zelaya’s party, Roberto Micheletti, was sworn in as acting president.
So it’s not easy to identify any good guys in this squabble. But Zelaya’s actions were within the law, though only barely. The coup was not, and international condemnation has been swift and full-throated. The new government will have few friends, in Central America or elsewhere. It doesn’t deserve any.”
Interesting take on the entire scene. Could it possibly be ‘truthful and objective’?

Danita,
You don’t have the slightest idea what you are talking about. If a case goes before the Supreme Court and something is declared illegal then it is illegal.
I don’t want to lower myself to hurling insults around, but I’m starting to get frustrated with all this talk of what the Honduran government did to protect their constitution as being illegal. You are not an expert on Honduran constitutional law, and you apparently don’t know the facts of what has happened, and is happening down there.
So you should really look into the facts because you sound like an idiot when you keep repeating the same tired arguments to people who are much more knowledgeable than you about what happened.
If you care to know, since Zelaya was removed the government has been investigating his bank accounts and his records and so far found that he was allowing Venezuelan planes filled with cocaine to refuel in Honduras on their way to the US. 60 million dollars was found in one of his homes yesterday, that doesn’t really sound like a simple farmer to me. The government also has evidence that he was selling Mayan artifacts the most precious national treasures of Honduras on the black market, for his own personal profit.
So tell me, if all of this is true do you still support leaving Zelaya in office?
I await your response.

Obama is so on the wrong side of this Honduran thing. The president was clearly trying for a Marxist coup. He wanted to change the constitution so he could be president for life like Castro and chavez et al. The supreme court said no. He went ahead anyway with his referendum. By the way, he only won office by 4% and he has a lot less support from his leftist party now. BO should have sat this one out. One wonders if OB will try the same thing. Acorn is probably going to do the census.

The Organization of American States is an international organization whose members are all of the thirty-five independent states of the Americas.

“Honduras’ interim leader warned that the only way his predecessor will return to office is through a foreign invasion, setting up a dramatic showdown with the ousted president who is preparing to come home accompanied by world leaders.
“A defiant Roberto Micheletti said in an interview with The Associated Press late Tuesday that “no one can make me resign,” defying the United Nations, the Organization of American States, the Obama administration and other leaders that have condemned the military coup that ousted President Manuel Zelaya.
“Micheletti vowed Zelaya would be arrested if he followed through with plans to return to Honduras on Thursday, even though the presidents of Argentina and Ecuador have signed on to accompany him along with the heads of the Organization of American States and the U.N. General Assembly.”
AP July 1, 2009

Major labor unions in Honduras have launched a general strike protesting the military overthrow of the constitutional President Jose Manuel Zelaya.
The main trade unions, farmers, youth and social organizations in Honduras are on the second day of a strike against the dictatorial government in the country.
“We don’t recognize this new government imposed by the oligarchy,” declared Oscar Garcia, vice president of the Honduran water workers union, adding that such resistance campaign will persist until President Zelaya is restored to power. “It will be an indefinite strike.”

Danita,
How long have you been an expert on the Honduran Constituion? Just because some liberal reporter writes that the removal of Zelaya was illegal doesn’t make it so.
These reporters have no more knowledge of Honduran law than you do. You need to quit quoting articles and go research it for yourself. Because you don’t know what you are talking about and neither do 90% of the people reporting on it and it will all come out in the following days.
The OAS has suspended their demand of reinstating Zelaya withing 72 hours and are sending representatives to Honduras to investigate the legality of what was done and to look at overwhelming evidence of the crimes that Zelaya has been committing.
The more you defend this action the dumber you are going to look when it is all said and done.

For those of you who don’t know what has happened…
President Mel illegally called for a public vote to support a constitutional referendum removing limits on his term. This can only be done by the Honduran Congress. The Supreme Court ruled Mel’s referendum was unconstitutional and instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would have done. Next, President Z used his supporters to break into the military base, stole the ballots and promptly distributed them himself. The attorney general of Honduras, backed by the Supreme Court and the Congress, has made it clear he would prosecute anyone trying to carry out the vote and, consequently, Pres Z was arrested.
It was not a coup but merely Honduras defending it’s constitution and carrying out the rule of law.
Lastly, I am ashamed of our president and for American media for not portraying what this really is and not taking a prime opportunity to defend democracy.

the honduran goverment did nothing wrong just following proper orders and procedures in their own laws. this small country is a a great example of democracy the u.s and the e.u should be ashamed for betraying one of its closest allies in the region just to please the left leaning goverments of the area. obama needs to simply stay out of affairs from other democratic nations.