Palau (Who?) to Take in 17 Uighurs

I realize they’ll ‘watch’ over them but do people realize that we have a no passport or visa requirement w/ them? I understand they’re human and have rights and all the good stuff but really, we just put them in a place of population less than 25,000 w/ a no security watch. This is another pull the slick one over us move but hey, O won so he gets his way. Let’s just party.

Score one for the Republican cowards and cowed Democrats. They got their way – those scary Muslims who have been cleared of being our enemy by everyone from the Pentagon to George Bush’s own Attorney General’s office are getting sent far away.
(To a country that is not scared of China BTW – that is the major significance of Palau and why Albania refused to accept more Uighurs, they even recognize Taiwan as an independent country.)
I hope this national cowardice is only temporary and will fade as the end of the Rove era means political debate goes back to being about the economy, health care, national defense – real issues – rather than “FEAR! BE SCARED so our big government can protect you!”

“FEAR! BE SCARED so our big government can protect you!”
How is this different than this administration on the economy? They are using the exact same strategy on the economy over the last 6 months.
Guess what, they are all politicians… this is what they do. To get what they want, they forment fear. No party has the monopoly on fear tactics.

17 Uighurs — Muslim Chinese — into a population of 21,000 mostly Christian Islanders. What could possibly go wrong?
Islamic extremists have twice hit Bali in nearby Indonesia over the past seven years.

OSAMA is God’s gift to the Pentagon. Without him, how could our military sow the FEAR necessary to WASTE TRILLIONS on unneeded and grossly expensive weapons programs. We already spend MORE THAN ALL THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED on defense. Yet they can’t find ONE GUY hiding out in an area the size of Pennsylvania. Maybe they DON’T want to find their most valuable asset???

“We already spend MORE THAN ALL THE REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED on defense.”
Well that’s not true. US Defense budget (this year) is around 550B. World expenditures on just the military is a little over 1.4 Trillion (2008). That is of course, only in dollar amounts. If you take it as a percentage of GDP (which is the standard of comparison), the US ranks 27th in the world. The reason why this is the standard is because it ranks defense expenditures as a component of the economy. The dollar comparison only highlights how huge our economy is, if being ranked 27th as a percentage of GDP. This percentage has been steadily decreasing since 1960.

The “worst of the worst”?? These guys should never have been picked up in the first place. They wee found to be no threat to the US and then held in solitary so that the Bush Administration wouldn’t look bad for imprisoning random foreigners grabbed for the ransom they were paying.
Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld should be paying out of their own pockets. How much will it cost America to clean up the mess they made.

“Riiight jw, there were no fear tactics by Obama and this administration (especially with the stimulus), or ever by Democrats.”
It’s just that it’s not scary to us Democrats KR. But I’m not saying it’s your fault that it scares you. Recent studies have suggested that self-identified right-wingers are much more easily frightened.

“The Republican party is showing signs of recovering, but they definitely still have a Chicken Little faction that believes that sowing deep and irrational fear is the way for them to keep their cushy jobs.”
Honestly jw, both parties do this. If you are outraged about this, it should focused at politicians in general, not any one party. This is a standard tactic by the party in power. Clinton was accussed of it, Bush, Rep. congress and Dem. congress alike. The only commonality in all of this is that they are all politicians.

KR:”I’d be more interested in what China was telling us diplomatically, whether they were pressuring us to keep them locked up. ”
Albania accepted some Uyghurs a few years back, which angered China to the point of scaring Albania. That’s why they aren’t willing to offer asylum to any more and why Palau, who China already hates for recognizing Taiwan, is a reasonable choice.
China considers Uyghurs as bad and Tibetan separatists and wants them dead or “re-educated.”

KR:”Honestly jw, both parties do this.”
Degree matters. A lot. And I simply do not see Democrats playing the existential threat and fear of death card with the regularity and vigor of Republicans.
Democrats play the class warfare card and go stupid economically, but that is a very different fear than the sort that has people calling for the execution of innocent men for nothing more than being Muslim and hating the Chinese government that is trying to exterminate their culture by force.
And the Obama administration has actually been ridiculed for their efforts to down play the fear cards with rhetoric of hope.

You are being far too polite in my opinion jw, Fear is one of the cornerstones of the Republican Party.

“Degree matters.”
Sorry, when its a fear tactic, it doesn’t. It is all your opinion. Frightening people into supporting the largest stimulus in history, nationalizing auto makers and banks, all under the fear of jobs being lost or credit colapsing etc, is a large degree to many, if not most Americans.
And its because of politicians, not any one party. That is unfortunately fact.

To be honest, I don’t think the $200million is that expensive, comparatively. I’m sure it costs more than that to house them in Gitmo (they have their own section, art classes, etc), and relocating them here would be tremendously expensive as well.

Beyond the 200 million what is the price tag? Open government????

KR:”You kind of helped my arguement. Just military expenditures is lower than 550B. ”
You misread my post – just military expenditures exceeded $660 billion. The money spent for military action in Afghanistan and Iraq certainly counts as military expenditure, doesn’t it?
That $550 billion does not include Iraq or Afghanistan actions (in 2009), nor does it include upkeep of our nuclear weapons. I’m puzzled how you can exclude those from the budget. And I’m also puzzled at how you don’t seem to understand your gross error of including the US’s military expenditures when determining the “rest” of the world number – of course we spend less if you include our expenditures as part of the “rest” of the world!
As for getting what we pay for, we certainly do. So does everyone else who is freeloading on our expenditures. This is an area where I think Ron Paul is actually sane – we don’t need to be nor can we afford to be the world’s policeman. Europe needs to start picking up it’s own tab and I trust Japan to do the same now (and I think China could use that poke in the eye honestly).

“3000 people died on 9/11. But in the 8 years since, 500,000 Americans have died from MEDICAL ERRORS.”
Difference here is one is intentional, premediated, and calculated. One is an attack from foreign land, the other is a statistic which I’d like to know the details of that 500,000 number. That number is made up of too many complex situations to lump it into just medical errors. Plus it doesn’t support your point, medical errors occur while GETTING health care, so its not about not having health care or supporting any socialist health medicine system.
I would also bet your passion against the war in Iraq and that number of 4,000 soldiers in a “needless” death wouldn’t be stacked up against your 500,000 medical “error” deaths. So it’s pretty silly you would belittle 911 in the same way.

Dear KR: It sounds like you value 9/11 victims far more than people killed by medical mistakes. Are you suggesting that relatives of a loved one killed by an incorrect chemo dose should feel less loss than if the death resulted from terrorism? Maybe you should explain your right-wing reasoning to THEM, rather than to me.

“It sounds like you value 9/11 victims far more than people killed by medical mistakes. Are you suggesting that relatives of a loved one killed by an incorrect chemo dose should feel less loss than if the death resulted from terrorism? Maybe you should explain your right-wing reasoning to THEM, rather than to me.”
What? Are you seriously comparing hijackers who flew a plane into buildings of people just doing their daily jobs, to an incorrect chemo dose? You seriously cannot distinguish between a premedited intentional act and a mistake, and not understand the difference in dealing with each?
I want you to think about what you are saying

“The money spent for military action in Afghanistan and Iraq certainly counts as military expenditure, doesn’t it? ”
Actually it does in principle, but on the books it is a separate appropriations bill. The military expenditures report does not count appropriations for operations, its focused on the maintained military year to year. If Iraq and Afghanistan was part of the defense budget, that money would be appropriated whether we are there or not. Too complicated to do it that way. Thus, the constant, year to year calculation is the one that is used.
Regardless, its not more than the world combined.

“What? Are you seriously comparing hijackers who flew a plane into buildings of people just doing their daily jobs, to an incorrect chemo dose?”
Are you claiming that a comparison of risk between these events cannot be made?

jhw…let us throw out the stats because in reality statistics are never a truthful indicator just used by ALL political parties to push agendas ask any liberal, high percentage of FED BUD., or conservative, low percentage of FED BUD., and the percentage will be tailored to their stance …So the question should be, how much are you, as a taxpaying citizen, I assume, are willing to spend on military and defense out of the total Federal Budget, excluding related departments such as the VA or DOE??..How much for our active service personnel, weapons procurements, base operations and maintenance DIRECT REALATIONS…Me? At least 25-27% in these current times..STEP UP AND COMMIT TO A PERCENTAGE THAT IS IF YOU HAVE THE UMMMM COURAGE…
Please do not site Wikipedia or war resisters league or…some other bias site for your info..

“Are you claiming that a comparison of risk between these events cannot be made?”
WHAT? Where do you stop? Car accidents? People are afraid to fly when they are more likely to be struck by lightning then be in a plane accident. None of this matters compared to an event that was malicious in its intent by foreign actors. This is such a silly discussion I cannot believe I am in it.
Ok so whos responsbility is it to ensure people don’t make mistakes? Hmm? Are going to put in some government program against it’s people who make mistakes?
Ok so whos responsibility is it to ensure foreign actors do not attack our citizens? Hmm? Do we have government programs/agencies to prevent or reduce a threat to its people?
This isn’t freakin hard to understand.

Parallax View:”.let us throw out the stats because in reality statistics are never a truthful indicator”
Really? I guess that’s why medicine doesn’t work, bridges are falling down all over the place, computers don’t exist, and the last shot of Scotch I had made me go blind.
“So the question should be, how much are you, as a taxpaying citizen, I assume, are willing to spend on military and defense out of the total Federal Budget, excluding related departments such as the VA or DOE?”
I am not that willing to pay to keep troops stationed in Germany, or keep troops stationed in Japan, or to keep oil prices low, or to develop sharks with laser beams on their head for when Cuba invades. Do I get that choice too?
And I don’t live in fear. We could halve our military budget with no loss of security, we just wouldn’t be able to play Daddy Policeman to the whole world.

jhw..should have known better than to ask a left leaning liberal to think out of the liberal box and demonstrate some individuality….my bad….Won’t happen again!!!!

“And I don’t live in fear. We could halve our military budget with no loss of security, we just wouldn’t be able to play Daddy Policeman to the whole world. ”
That statement is generally true. However, it’s not realistic. Our nation is in treaties with nations to provide for their defense, Iceland and Japan being the two I know off the top of my head. We also augmented defense of Europe for years. Characterizing this blankly as the world police is somewhat disingenuous.
I will say this however, we shouldn’t take it from this perspective, more from a requirements perspective. Currently we have requirements for our military, that is not based on threats because they change. Defense of the homeland, alliances with partners, sea lines secured, defense treaties honored, maintained operations overseas etc. If you want to cut our military in half, then you have to decide what functional requirements get dropped. Not just “cut if in half and hope all is well”. It’s far far more complicated than that.
It is also a huge industry that provides tons of jobs and R&D. If your a fan of government provided jobs, then you should really have a stance of increased defense spending. The government, through defense and defense spending, creates jobs and lots of them.

For the $200,000,000 the U.S. is paying Palau to take these folks, the least the Government could do is ask American communities if they would take these folks for that kind of money.
At $12,000,000 each……particularly because these folks are known by our Government to be innocent of any charges….they just can’t go back to China where they are a persecuted minority.
In fact, the Rachel Maddow Show on MSNBC said they would be happy to take two folks for $23,000,000 and U.S. could save the difference.
“Charity begins at home”………ergo, give us a chance to pick up some of the easy money the Government is giving to Palau.

@jhw
“Even on the economy – which is recovering from a crash worse than any in over a generation – Republicans couldn’t help grossly overplaying the fear.”
I guess you must’ve slept through the dot.com crash which was similar in scale from a % standpoint…or your definition of “generation” is different from the rest of us…Perhaps you are injecting “fear” (?)

KR:” Not just “cut if in half and hope all is well”. It’s far far more complicated than that.”
It certainly is, and I had a brief flash of hope Rumsfeld could do it (sadly, it’s the sort of paper pushing that may have been his only area of competence). But it can be done and it should be done. We don’t have a threat on par with Communism any more – we have a problem with vipers in the lawn not a neighbor installing rocket launchers pointed at us. Our spending should reflect this.
“It is also a huge industry that provides tons of jobs and R&D. If your a fan of government provided jobs, then you should really have a stance of increased defense spending.”
Military is the dumbest way to stimulate, even if it is the cliche’ Kensyan approach (paying out millions to build intricate machines that are literally blown up; paying highly trained men to literally walk in circles all day; etc.). If you want to blow money, how about building three transcontinental maglev trains that do over 250 mph and have six E-W spurs that cover from Florida to Canada to the Texas border? Based on current tech, that’s what the Iraq war expenditures could have bought. If I want to water the lawn, I don’t build a waterslide over it. I buy a sprinkler.

They only have 20,000 people living there. Considering that they are receiving 200 million in aid, each man, woman and child is getting 10,000 tax free, thanks to the US government. Now that’s a stimulus package.

Alchemist, are you in the health care field yourself? One of my dear friends is a doctor, and she is not happy about the requirement to shift to electronic records. Yes, in hospitals, they can prevent tragic mistakes. Yes, they are not inherently evil. But as usual, this “one size fits all” approach is not as simple as it seems.
My doctor pal says her practice will make the switch because they must “or else we don’t get paid.” However, she worried about training her staff adequately so that mistakes are not made in this system– it is not foolproof you know and mistakes in an electronic system are often harder to weed out than those in a paper system. She pointed out that all information must be encoded and that some info that does not easily reduce to “yes” or “no” or a simple short description will be lost because doctors will stick to the templates and protocols provided.
Also, she cited surveys and anecdotal evidence that doctors using electronic systems are less likely to spend as much time interacting with their patients, because they are busy inputting data and focusing on the computer screen; she sees this as another step toward depersonalizing medical care. My own experiences of late seem to bear that out– one of my specialists has begun using electronic records and during a recent visit, the nurse and the doctor both spent more time interacting with their medical screen than they did with me. I mentioned, jokingly, to the physician that he had not been on the same side of the room that I was on for the entire visit, and he replied, quite seriously, “All the information I need is on this screen, so I didn’t need to come over to the exam table.” Yikes!
Technology like electronic medical records usually has an up side and a down side. I appreciate that my records could be easily sent from one place to another if, for example, I were injured away from home. I appreciate that busy hospitals need to be careful about mix-ups and like the regularity of electronic records. However, I also appreciate that electronic records are still subject to human error and are not the be-all and end-all.
KR can disagree with you without being a neanderthal, you know. As can I.

“Do we have government programs/agencies to prevent or reduce a threat to its people?”
OSHA?

Is that $200 million per year or ???

“Cannot believe anyone has this moral equivelancy arguement. I’m done, I can’t take it anymore.”
It has nothing to do with morality. It’s about objectively evaluating risk to the public.

Not to mention, what government program out there can prevent stupid people from doing stupid things? Even with laws and regulations in place, people do stupid things or don’t adhere to them.
I guess we are going to regulate and tax the air we breathe, might as well regulate stupidity.

” Is it really an accident if the person or organization that caused the accident was purposely negligent of existing laws? Isn’t that an attempt to overcome [legal] countermeasures?”
Whatever, its the same, you win. 911 should have been ignored and more money spent on speed limit and seat belt enforcement. Why anyone would be upset over 911, who knows. Stupid people I guess. Scrap the DOD, stupid people on the roads need more government involvement.
I guess until terrorists are killing more people than our roads, we should appropriate funds proportionately. Totally logical is a sick twisted way.
Oh and since not very many people are murdered, we should downsize our prisons until the number of people murdered reaches the level of fatalities on the road.
Yup, no moral equivelance rationale here.

“I guess until terrorists are killing more people than our roads, we should appropriate funds proportionately. Totally logical is a sick twisted way.”
Insults and sarcastic hyperbole aside I think a lot of you army guys think that you’re the only ones who are protecting our citizens in a meaningful way. Well it’s baloney! Our government protects us from many more threats than just foreign militants.

Getting back to the 17 Uighurs, that’s approximately $11,800,000 per Chinese Muslim sent to Palau.
Heck, I’ll take one (as long as I get to pick which one) if that is the payoff.

For $200 million, I’d go to Palau. Who wouldn’t?

Our local radio opened this to the public and everyone that responded were against the spreading of the danger. To be humanitarian is to be considerate of the tiniest population not equipped to safely keep this highly skilled cowards. Suggestions to my beloved President Obama, it’s more humane to protect the world than to worry about how the detainees are handled. Leave Gunatanamo Alone..admit it’s not a good idea and move on. V