Clinton to meet with ousted Honduran president

Hillary needs to resign, and quickly. Before she gets tied forever to this monstrosity known as the Obama administration.

Let us hope that Obama/Clinton do not use the military to mess around in a country’s internal affairs. The ex president seems to has been legally removed from office The ex president was attempting to do an end run around the constitution to avoid term limits. This is putty a new face on the ugly American.

LOLOL…Hillarious is relegated to meeting with a third world ousted dictator while the real foreign diplomacy is going on in Russia without her anywhere near. Pretty funny.

Why are we meddling in the affairs of Honduras? Why is HRC meeting with a man who violated the constitution that he was bound to uphold? Why is HRC meeting with a wannabee dictator? This is truly bad foreign policy.

I kinda feel sorry for Hillary… atleast she’s involved in something. Posted by: Concerned in OH | Jul 7, 2009 12:18:45 PM
With her arm in a sling, she was have trouble polishing the White House furniture and vacumming the rugs.

“President Barack Obama reiterated his support for efforts to restore Zelaya to Honduras’ presidency…” Can Obama prove himself more incompetent and idiotic? Zelaya has proven himself to be a staunch ally to Hugo Chavez, a close friend and ally of Iran’s pro-terrorist president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Iran’s president wants to use virtual Marxist Communists like Chavez and Zelaya to bring terrorism to the US via our neighbors to the south. Zelaya tried to force a change in his nations constitution that would allow him to remain president indefinitely–would anyone in the US allow Obama to try the same here. Yet this is what Obama is supporting in Honduras.

Hillary should pull the ole switcheroo.
She should meet with Zelaya, declare him “a law breaking dictator” and challenge the Obama administration over backing Zelaya’s return to power.
She should restate, we are a country of laws with a Constitution similar to Honduras, and like Honduras if our leaders try to circumvent the Constitution they will be removed from office as the Constitution provides.
And then, with the smile of a Cheshire cat, she should ask, Barack? What was that about not needing the Senate to ratify treaties?
Do I hear a Puma growl?

The emperor has no clothes.

danita,
Think for yourself instead of going by what others say. Did Honduras follow their constitution? Did the Supreme court rule on the activities of the former president? Did their congress follow the constitution? The answer to all three is YES. Is that not how democracy works? Once again yes.

Concerned in OH. . . .
Many, many countries in the world have come out in support of Zelaya and against the military coup – it is not just ‘progressives’ it is a huge block of countries in the world including all of the latin american countries, all of the E.U., Canada and the United State. You think they all just love supporting ‘ruthless dictators’ as you put it?
Name any countries who have declared their support for the actions of the Honduran military and the new acting President Roberto Micheletti?
Any countries at all?

I am disgusted at ANYONE in this country for recognizing this criminal Zelaya and his actions, let alone meet with him. This is a tragedy on democracy worldwide to support Zelaya over Hondura’s supreme court, congress and citizens. Shame on you Obama and Clinton and anyone else who supports this man

Lisa,
They rule before. They have 18 counts against the ousted president. So the U.N. and members have come out against Honduras. How many members of the U.N. are democratic countries. Most of them are not. Of course they side with the dictators. As for the U.S. I think it is a shame that we have not backed the new Honduras government. Many of you jump all over that other countries have not backed them. What about the FACT that they did this by following the constitution with an elected congress and the Supreme Court. The current president is only temporary until they hold elections in November. None of you on the side of the old president can answer to these facts.

Many of the major country in the world have supported President Zelaya over the people who staged the coup.
You don’t think those countries studied the situation and the constitution and came up with what they thought was the JUST way of approaching the situation?
You may condemn all of those countries universally . .. I do not.
I have a feeling there is much more here than meets the uninformed eye educated by a quick glance at one phrase from a constitution.

The United States is not alone in speaking out against the military coup. Many of the major countries in the world have come out in support of Zelaya and against the military coup.
Would be delighted is you could name any countries who have declared their support for the actions of the Honduran military and the new acting President Roberto Micheletti?

Danita, you keep posting the exact same words in comment after comment. Yes, we know, major countries around the world condemned the ouster. We heard. And I am not disagreeing with you. But could you either put some effort into doing more than cutting and pasting your previous comments over and over?

I love Danita’s post and agree 100%. How can our president side with a dictator and wannabe dictator over the people of Honduras and their governing bodies? What is wrong with this picture people? Obama is a wannabe dictator and how much you wanna bet he tries to have the 22nd ammendment removed which is what Zelaya tried to do?

DO NOT MEET WITH THIS CRIMINAL HILLARY, SHOW SOME CLASS AND TELL OBAMA TO TAKE A HIKE ON HIS SIDING WITH TYRANTS, DICTATORS AND TERRORISTS OVER THE FREE AND THE WANT TO BE FREE OF THIS WORLD!

“Obama is a wannabe dictator and how much you wanna bet he tries to have the 22nd ammendment removed”
Posted by: Jazz58 | Jul 7, 2009 2:22:11 PM
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Run for your lives!
More smear and fear techniques from the paranoid fringe.
Scary.

“So the U.N. and members have come out against Honduras. How many members of the U.N. are democratic countries.”
The UN was unanimous in its condemnation of Zelaya’s removal so you have a wide swath of political systems condemning this from western democracies to monarchies etc.
“Most of them are not. Of course they side with the dictators.”
By opposing a military coup? The right wing is truly Orwellian.
“As for the U.S. I think it is a shame that we have not backed the new Honduras government. Many of you jump all over that other countries have not backed them.”
Name a single country supporting Honduras in their actions.

The dude broke the law and tried to go around the consitution, and yet obama sides with him. Oh yeah, that’s right. obama considers our constitution, “just words”

Danita is right, there are no major countries supporting the removal of Zelaya from office. That is a fact. On the other hand, Chavez, Castro and the dictator loving UN are also not supporting Zelaya’s removal from office. That’s the quandary for me as I have absolutely no faith in the UN’s judgment.
I think this article is a good read though – the writer is Dan Rosenheck The Economist’s bureau chief for Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean.

Danita, my judgments are not skewed. Why on earth should I be concerned with the folks supposedly screaming “Obama is evil” and “Obama is a dictator” when there is you, screaming “Bush is evil” and “Bush was a dictator”– as well as “Bush broke the world” and “Bush ruined the economy”?
Most folks have a shade more nuance to their arguments that you give them credit for. Yes, there are trolls on both sides repeating the same silly statements, like “let’s see a birth certificate” or “the sky is falling.” But most at least try to make a new argument or present a new example of something or rephrase what they have been saying or respond to someone else’s point or…. There’s variety here and it keeps me reading.

Article 205 of the Honduran constitution delegates the power to impeach the President to the legislature. There is no authorization for the Supreme Court to order the military to deport the President without impeachment proceedings. The legislature couldn’t impeach because they couldn’t prove the charges; what Zelaya proposed wouldn’t have extended his or anybody else’s term by a single day. It was a public opinion poll on convening an assembly to rewrite the Constitution, and even if the opinion poll was affirmative and such an assembly were convened, the resulting Constitution would have to be approved by voters before being enacted… by which time Zelaya would have long since vacated the office of President.

“Article 205 of the Honduran constitution delegates the power to impeach the President to the legislature. There is no authorization for the Supreme Court to order the military to deport the President without impeachment proceedings. The legislature couldn’t impeach because they couldn’t prove the charges; what Zelaya proposed wouldn’t have extended his or anybody else’s term by a single day. It was a public opinion poll on convening an assembly to rewrite the Constitution, and even if the opinion poll was affirmative and such an assembly were convened, the resulting Constitution would have to be approved by voters before being enacted… by which time Zelaya would have long since vacated the office of President.”
Well said.

RyanC – thanks, I didn’t realize that. The article is “Everyone is wrong about Honduras” and was published today in the National Post. I don’t know anything about the reporter, but at least it doesn’t appear to be another lazy article by someone who doesn’t cover the region.

Posted by: danita
Would be delighted if you could name any countries who have declared their support for the actions of the Honduran military and the new acting President Roberto Micheletti?
HONDURAS!

Maybe, instead of exiling him, they should have thrown him in jail. Put him on trial and see where it goes. They were doing him a favor letting him go. If I was the new leader, I would let him land and throw the bum in jail to teach him a lesson.

Hillary on her meeting with Zelaya:
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton on Tuesday said Costa Rican President Oscar Arias should lead talks between ousted Honduran President Manuel Zelaya and those who led the June 28 coup.
“We call upon all parties to refrain from acts of violence and to seek a peaceful constitutional and lasting solution to serious divisions in Honduras through dialogue,” Clinton said at a news conference after meeting with Zelaya.

“Maybe, instead of exiling him, they should have thrown him in jail. Put him on trial and see where it goes.”
Gee a trial before punishment, how “novel” an idea for right wingers to give tepid support to.

Posted by: danita
Yes, the people who orchestrated the military coup support the military coup. Duh!
The people, congress, senate, court system, police, military and his own political party all supported his removal. This was not a military coup. A military coup would have a military general running the country right now.

“It’s really strange how one “coup” (Iran) is better than another (Honduras) to liberals.”
Posted by: Concerned in OH | Jul 7, 2009 3:50:29 PM
This is horse crap. Who is supporting any ‘coup’ in Iran? Liar. I heard universal condemnation of the attacks upon the people of Iran. There have been no liberals supporting any ‘coup’ in Iran – and that goes all the way back to the one orchestrated by the U.S. and Britain to install the Shah as a dictator.

The only difference bteween Iran and Honduras is Honduras changed prez and Iran didn’t. Oh and that little matter of Zalaya breaking all of those laws and being removed legally. Why are we meddling again? The is no crisis, the change has been made and it is done.

“The people . . . all supported his removal.”
Posted by: lfrichar | Jul 7, 2009 3:41:46 PM
You don’t speak for the people of Honduras, nor can you pretend to know.
This military coup has been almost universally condemned. You can’t find a single country that has shown its support for the coup, or the new President.
Virtually ALL of the major democratic countries have spoken out against the coup.
But you would know better right lfrichar. You are judge and jury for the whole affair. Excellent.

Posted by: Ryan C———-That does not appear the case which is why negotiations are happening to try to prevent a civil war.———-
Actually, there will be no civil war, but the leftists comrades don’t want to lose an ally and will make this sound as volitile as they can. Don’t believe everything you read from the media here.

If there’s no crisis, why is the country still effectively under martial law, with curfews, suspension of civil liberties and illegal detentions?

“If there’s no crisis, why is the country still effectively under martial law, with curfews, suspension of civil liberties and illegal detentions?”
One envisions Kevin Bacon in his ROTC uniform “Remain calm….all is well”

FYI ~ Article 236 of the Honduran Constitution, which was blatently violated by Zelaya:
“No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President.
“Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years.”
Zelaya violated this clearly and was then removed from office as the constitution calls for.
How was the removal from office unlawful or wrong? Why would the U.S. “meddle” in Honduran politics with regards to that country’s Constitution?
I hope Hillary does not follow Barack’s policy. I hope she stands up for the rule of law and the Constitution in our and other’s Representative Democracies.

“It doesn’t matter what ANY country thinks about an internal matter in Honduras. Where was this outrage over Iran?”
Posted by: lfrichar | Jul 7, 2009 4:11:10 PM
That’s right lfrichar, thugs in any country can do what they want and the fact that almost all the major democracies in the world condemn it means nothing.
Why do you think all the major democratic countries in the world have spoken against this coup? Because they don’t know as much as you lfrichar?
“Where was the outrage over Iran?” Where have you been? The entire world appeared to be outraged and spoke out against the violence against the demonstrators.

“thank you for having such a good sense of humor. the idiocy and the hate of the ‘right wing’ cadets sometimes appals me beyond humor”
Don’t let them get to you.

Hillary Clinton has become inconsequential.

Ryan_C and danita————— Have you not read the Honduran constitution? It was the supreme court directing the removal from office (I seem to remember we had a supreme court ruling that stood). The military removed him, but not by a coup. Yes, he will still have supporters (the poor as he pandered to them for votes), but the simple fact is their constitution authorizes the action taken and it appears they followed it.

RYAN C—How did he violate that provision?
Direct from the constitution of Honduras
“”"alternation of the Presidency or simply proposes its reform, will immediately cease in the exercise of office”"”
Any questions?

“”"Posted by: danita The entire world appeared to be outraged and spoke out against the violence against the demonstrators.”"”
Danita, it took Obama 10 days to condemn the deaths of 17 civilians at the hands of the government (I guess 7 wasn’t enough bloodshed the first week). Obama actually said “we will wait to see how it plays out” after the deaths of the first 7 people. How do you think it is going to play out? Why are we not waiting to see how this plays out? It took Obama 3 hours to condemn this. Do you not see a disparity here?

“”"”"”"”Ryan C, when did he call for alteration of the Presidency?”"”"”"”"”
He proposed the removal of term limits. Did you not see the news when it broke? This would be a certin “alteration” of the presidency.

“Danita, it took Obama 10 days to condemn the deaths of 17 civilians at the hands of the government (I guess 7 wasn’t enough bloodshed the first week). Obama actually said “we will wait to see how it plays out” after the deaths of the first 7 people.”
Iranian Election Fri June 12th.
Protests the following weekend.
1st Statement by Obama Mon Jun 15th.
2nd Statement by Obama Tues June 16th.
“Obama made clear that this “is not how governments should interact with their people.” His rhetoric went just a bit beyond his careful statement on Monday, when he said an inquiry into the disputed presidential election should go ahead without violence and that it would be wrong to be silent about developments.
“People’s voices should be heard and not suppressed,” he said Tuesday.
Obama held out hope that more Iranians are dissatisfied with the country’s hard-line, clergy-based power structure that took over in the 1979 Islamic Revolution.
“I do believe that something has happened in Iran,” the president said. “There is a questioning of the kinds of antagonistic postures towards the international community that have taken place in the past and that there are people who want to see greater openness and greater debate and want to see greater democracy.”"

“”"”"danita, Personally, I’m not sure you know any better than them.”"”"”
I am not the one who knows, but i did read their constitution and it is clear. I can understand how other countries could see this as a coup, but i am going to guess here and tell you Zelaya probably won’t be reinstated. I can only give you the FACTS of their constitution and what appears to have happened.

Article 236 doesn’t preclude polling the citizenry for the rewriting of the Constitution as a whole (as opposed to amending specific sections). Advisory votes by the citizenry are provided for in Honduran law. Zelaya has a case that what he did was perfectly legal. Is it a strong case? I don’t know. But I do know that the opposition decided to fly him out of the country at gunpoint rather than have a fair and open trial. That suggests to me that they didn’t believe they could prevail, so they took a shortcut. Democracy doesn’t take shortcuts.

“He proposed the removal of term limits. Did you not see the news when it broke? This would be a certin “alteration” of the presidency.”
Nope.
Zelaya wanted to conduct a poll that was non binding to gauge interest in the Honduran people’s desire to change their Constitution. The poll was to ask whether there should be a ballot option in their coming Nov election to call and assembly.
Basically it was a proposed vote to see if they should hold a vote.
Even if approved such an Assembly would not have finished before Zelaya’s term was up.

meddler

ryan c Obama’s defense, if you want to label it as such, was mere empty words used to placate the moderate and right; however, instructing your Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, to have a personal one on one with the former Honduran President Zelaya, who was ousted by his own Congress and Supreme Court, is something entirely different…So what happens if Zelaya is re-instated as President with Obama’s help and Zelaya turns out to be just another dictator who abuses his people and becomes a thorn in the side of the next American President in 2012???? On a personal note, I believe it is TIME to mind our own business when it comes to other countries struggles..ISN’T THAT WHY PEOPLE VOTED FOR OBAMA????

“ryan c Obama’s defense, if you want to label it as such, was mere empty words used to placate the moderate and right;”
So Obama’s words of condemnation are empty.
But right wingers screaming we need to do something is what exactly?
Seriously if anything the Republicans claiming kinship via twitter with the protesting Iranians was disgusting.
“however, instructing your Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, to have a personal one on one with the former Honduran President Zelaya, who was ousted by his own Congress and Supreme Court, is something entirely different”
Perhaps because Obama is playing chess while right wingers play checkers.
“So what happens if Zelaya is re-instated as President with Obama’s help and Zelaya turns out to be just another dictator who abuses his people and becomes a thorn in the side of the next American President in 2012″
I do not think our view of the rule of law (and yes the world feels his removal was unlawful) should depend upon who we like and do not like.

lfrichar -
You left out, “the neutrality of this article is disputed”. Wikipedia’s great, but it has its limitations.

ryan c..”So look whose found religion all of a sudden” since Obama has become President..LOL…CHANGE??? I think not.

Alex . .. .
The Unites States has a history of meddling in other countries affairs.
if you remember, the United States meddled in Iraq, Iran, Chile, Guatamala, Nicaraugua, Vietnam . . . using direct intervention by the government, the CIA and military force . . . . the United States also ‘meddled’ in countries in Europe during the Second World War.
In this particular case, like almost every other democratic country on the planet, the United States has simply stated it supports the democratically-elected President Zalaya and opposes the use of military coups to get rid of elected leaders.

I still have not seen a good explanation of what Honduras did wrong. They followed their law. Personally I think he should have been jailed and put on trial. I think now they should let him return, then put him on trial. Would you all have a different view if the situation was handled that way? Either way he broke the same laws and went against the constitution of his country.

Tom . . .
Here’s a good explanation ….
President Zalaya’s case wasn’t “heard” by the Supreme Court – they held a secret meeting to depose him. There is no provision in Honduran law that permits such a proceeding without a defendant being present. The court acted in direct and blatant disregard of the Constitution by directing the military to act against the Commander-in-Chief, which is considered an act of treason under the Constitution. The military further violated the Constitution by deporting a citizen (any citizen) without due process. And nobody has addressed the other CLEARLY illegal detentions carried out by the military since the coup, of political figures, foreign diplomats and others.
This is no more acceptable than the Ayatollah tossing the ballot boxes in the dumpster and declaring his favorite pet the winner.

“danita..Again, instructing your Sec of State to a one on one with the ex leader is not “simply stating.”"
“Ousted Honduran President Manuel Zelaya said on Tuesday he accepted the mediation of Costa Rican President Oscar Arias to try to solve his country’s political crisis following the June 28 coup that ousted him.
“He (Arias) seems like the right person, accepted by all presidents,” Zelaya told Honduran radio, speaking from Washington after meeting U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
Zelaya said he would hold talks with the interim Honduran government on Thursday in Costa Rica.”

“danita,
It appears you are now an expert on Honduran law.”
Actually Tom she was quoting a post by Yukon Sam down thread.

“I still have not seen a good explanation of what Honduras did wrong. They followed their law.”
B-b-b-u-u-u-u-t Obama’s book buddy Chavez likes Zayala.

Maybe he and Bill can read the book that Chavez gave Obama. Then they can right all of our problems. Why won’t Clinton just go away.

hey rachel . .. .
Almost every major democratic country in the world has condemned the coup in Honduras – it’s not just the Obama administration.

Let’s see the ousted Honduran president supported by Chairman Obama; disregards his own Country’s Constitution, Congress, Military, and Supreme Court becuase he wants to become the dictator for life. Sounds like Chairman O will want to pull this stunt here in America 6 years from now? Can these bozo’s in Washington keep there hands out of other countries and mind there own business? The only man in Washington who understands we have no business in telling Hondurus what to do is Dr. Ron Paul.

Danita – you think we are still a democratic country? Our financial institutions (money) and a major industry (auto) are owned by the gov’t. Not to mention that healthcare will be as well. As for Honduras, I was there in San Pedro Sula when the so call “coup” happened. People were partying (celebrating) in the streets. In Tocoa week before, a union farm leader was shot because he spoke out against Zalaya on the radio. The U.S. has great influence by what we support. We have encouraged the wrong party which is stirring the violence. I fear for my friends and family in Honduras. I just wish our leaders knew all the facts before they speak for US(A).

Obama supports a guy who violated his own Constitution.
That figures.
Perhaps Obama has a similar plan.

danita and Ryan C———You have both seen facts from their constitution, supreme court, military, congress, Zelaya’s own party and people that were in Honduras and you still believe it was a coup and anyone who doesn’t you label right wingers. You 2 don’t have a clue as to what you’re talking about. Obama and Hillary can do no wrong in your eyes when it is obvious this was an act from their constitution and supported by all branches of THEIR government. When the supremem court of their country makes the decision that their president is going about trying to extend the term of the presidency and vote to remove him immediately, that is an internal matter. By no means should we be accepting a deposed unlawful leader with open arms in DC. Let Honduras play out (as with the case of Iran) and then make your case. Obama has shown complete inconsistencies when it comes to foreign policy and that is a fact.

danita —————- You don’t understand what I am telling you. 1st, I am an independent and not a friggin’ right winger. 2nd, the FACTS in Honduras far ouotreach what ANY outside country thinks. Literally the whole of THEIR government has agreed Zelaya was trying to extend limits. The supreme court found Zelaya guilty of this, hence the immediate removal was ordered and acted upon. They should have thrown him in jail and put him on trial. I think they did him a favor by exiling him. To my main point: WHAT BUSINESS IS IT OF ANY OTHER COUNTRY IS IT when the highest court in the land convicts their president? Nobody but their own. There is no higher authority and whether you or I like it, we would not tolerate any country telling us how to govern either. Show me any international law that was broken. It’s not what I THINK OR BELIEVE. It is what their highest court decided…period.

lfrichar . . .
I don’t think you’re listening. The version you’ve heard is just that – a version. For you to claim you know what REALLY happened is laughable.
And seriously, given the choice of thinking most of the democratic countries in the world got it wrong, and you got it wrong. There is no choice.

Posted by: danita “”"”"”"For you to claim you know what REALLY happened is laughable. And seriously, given the choice of thinking most of the democratic countries in the world got it wrong, and you got it wrong. There is no choice.”"”"”"”
Again, what I said HAS OCCURRED ALREADY as we have read a very similar story in most news stations. What the international community thinks is irrelevent unless international laws were broken. Their highest court has spoken and ordered his removal. Please show me where I am wrong in this!

danita ————- There has been no mention of any diplomats being held in this case. We can only agree to disagree because your spin is the supreme court holding a “secret” meeting and ordering the military to remove him. Why did senate, congress, his own party, military ALL agree to it?IF Honduras didn’t break any international laws, they should only be accountable to themselves, which is what most western democracies would hope for. Example: If we removed our leader because he violated the laws as decreed by our supremem court, I want NO international intervention.

“There has been no mention of any diplomats being held in this case. ”
Posted by: lfrichar | Jul 8, 2009 3:34:17 PM
There certainly was reporting of diplomats having been taken, held and expelled from Honduras. That you didn’t see it means absolutely nothing lfrichar.

I stand behind the almost universal condemnation of the coup by almost every democratic country on the planet. Simple as that.

lfrichar …
I’ll entrust Honduran constitutional and international relations experts like yourself to come up with suggestions for the proper and appropriate legal approach.
There are already regional diplomatic efforts underway involving Honduras’ neighbours and fellow members in the AOS. I’m eager to hear their assessment.
For the time being, I stand with the many democratic countries in the world who have condemned the coup.

Danilo . …
That is also very simple. That you think you know what REALLY happened is laughable . . . you don’t. Neither do I.
Over the next while, we may get a glimpse at the truth. Until then I will side with the major democratic countries of the world (and their intelligence) over some dudes on the internet thinking they know the REAL TRUTH.
Oh, but I read it on the internet! It said so in the newspapers! Pffff.