A First Hand View of a Raucous Town Hall Meeting

Truly, Ryan C, The People have spoken.

I just turned myself into the White House Internet Snitch Czar for receiving and redistributing “fishy” emails containing information critical of ObamaCare.
Bring it on, Acornshirts!

Two elderly women said they were embarrassed by their neighbors.
“They were rude! Oh, they were behaving terribly,” one said, calling it a “disgrace to our community.”
Said another of the anger, which sounded very much to her like what she hears on Fox News and conservative talk radio, “If it’s not manufactured, they’re brainwashed.”
____________________________________
Mabel: “Actually, I’ve never even heard of Fox News and I don’t know how to find conservative talk radio. But that’s what they told me to say when they gave me 20 bucks and sent me in here. Right, Agnes?”
Agnes: “That’s right, dear.”

Ryan C — I think they would say you were rude for calling them old ladies.

The only fishy information on this government run health care program is coming from the DNC, and Obama, along with dems in congress. If you hear these fishy statements please report them to the whitehouse snitch, mcarthyite police.

“I cannot imagine the hysteria that would have resulted from a Bush whitehouse request that citizens inform on fellow citizens who are protesting policy.”
The political amnesia of right wingers would be funny is it weren’t so dangerous.
“That’s right. The government wants your cable guy, meter reader, even your postman to voluntarily report any and all suspicious information about you to a new, central FBI database. It’s called Operation TIPS, short for the Terrorism Information & Prevention System. The goal is to give millions of American truckers, letter carriers, train conductors, ship captains, and utility employees a formal way to report suspicious activity. “

Like Fox and talk radio? This is from the same folks who acted like total buffoons towards Bush for 8 years and the media showered them in praise?
The left and the media, one and the same, made their bed and now must lay in it.

Just then, someone in the audience shouted back, “Our freedom is being taken from us!”; “This bill is un-American,” said another voter.
_______________________________________
The typical parroting of the right wing fear campaign. It’s all too predictable.
I side with the two old ladies – they sound like the voice of decency and reason.
Two elderly women said they were embarrassed by their neighbors.
“They were rude! Oh, they were behaving terribly,” one said, calling it a “disgrace to our community.”
Said another of the anger, which sounded very much to her like what she hears on Fox News and conservative talk radio, “If it’s not manufactured, they’re brainwashed.”

Posted by: MNM | Aug 5, 2009 5:17:23 PM
You forgot their favorite one: “DANGEROUS”
The political amnesia of right wingers would be funny is it weren’t so dangerous.
Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 5, 2009 5:10:15 PM

Wise old lady.
Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 5, 2009 4:55:38 PM
___________________
Oh, my goodness, these loud words give me the vapors ….Just let me get some peace and quiet.
That’s REALLY the politics you advocate, Ryan????????

“These utterly incoherent, fishy statements, are simply an attempt to change the subject from the McCarthyite , brown shirt tactics of Obama and this white house.”
Right wingers don’t like it when their manufactured outrage about nonexistent spying is punctured by REAL spying on Americans by the Bush admin.
I understand as you guys enjoy the jack booted tactics provided they are not used against you.
“Evidence the closure of only republican owned dealerships by the DNC fundraising head appointed to decide which dealerships to close.”
ROFLMAO!
While studies have found that more Republican owned dealerships were closed overall, that doesn’t really say anything as car dealerships donated 80% to Republicans anyway.
The claim that only GOP dealerships were closed is like most things you post an outright lie.
” When do the protestors begin to disappear?”
When FoxNews discovers something new to tell them to be angry about.

Interesting that none of the shouting mob had anything intelligent to say, just typical right-wing hatred. “You’re lying to us!” “Obama’s trying to kill us!” Geez, could you Republicans be any more delusional and out-there? “Oh, no, Obama’s creeping through my daughter’s bedroom window right now! Protect me from healthcare, insurance companies who have my best interests at heart!”
The people attempting to bully our Congress into doing nothing are the same people who can’t find Washington DC on a map and who think the entire universe is 6000 years old. America is doomed.

The political amnesia of right wingers would be funny is it weren’t so dangerous.
Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 5, 2009 5:10:15 PM
Posted by: Traffic Cop Timmy | Aug 5, 2009 5:19:33 PM
——–
We have not forgotten the relentless, ORGANIZED protests by dems during the Bush admin.
-throwing fake blood on Condoleeza Rice by the nutty code pink group
-Cindy Sheehan protests and camps, well ORGANIZED, and media covered like the behavior of a hero
-Non stop screaming and bottle throwing among other things, every time Bush was in public, followed by a lauding review on tv
-at least 2 books written on how to kill a pres
-buttons distributed by an “ORGANIZED GROUP” depicting Bush with a gun to his head
-Stamps distributed and sold by an ‘ORGANIZED” GROUP, also depicting Bush with a gun to his head.
Voter intimidation by the Black Panther party. They were convicted but this whitehouse vacated those convictions, against the advice of the career prosecutors at justice.
Our memory is solid. It is you dem that are trying to change the rules now, as if anyone speaking up, even if loudly, at these townhalls could hold a candle to the vile behavior of dems during the prior 8 years.

The people attempting to bully our Congress into doing nothing are the same people who can’t find Washington DC on a map and who think the entire universe is 6000 years old. America is doomed.
Posted by: John Clavis | Aug 5, 2009 5:28:38 PM
____________________________________
Interviewer: Why did you vote for Obama?
Voter: Hope & Change!
Interviewer: What’s the Vice President’s name?
Voter: Uh, uh. Biden. Yea Joe Biden!
Interviewer: Who is Nancy Pelosi?
Voter: [long pause] Hope & Change!

“-throwing fake blood on Condoleeza Rice by the nutty code pink group
-Cindy Sheehan protests and camps, well ORGANIZED, and media covered like the behavior of a hero”
Code Pink is not a Democratic group. In fact they are as upset with Democrats about war as they are Republicans.
Cindy Sheehan renounced all ties to the Democratic party years ago.
“-Stamps distributed and sold by an ‘ORGANIZED” GROUP, also depicting Bush with a gun to his head.”
When in doubt right wingers just make it up.
It was an art exhibit, not an ogranized group.
“In 2005 the AP reported that an art exhibit titled “Axis of Evil: The Secret History of Sin” contained a number of controversial pieces including one of President Bush. Titled “Patriot Act” the ‘artwork,’ created by Al Brandtner, was a mock U.S. postage stamp with the image of President Bush with a gun aimed at his head.”

I think this explains the dishonesty of the right wing and the lies they are telling which confuses people
“In this video, (scroll to about 4:34) an audience member takes control of Rep. Gene Green’s (D-Texas) town hall event on health care, asking for a show of hands in the audience of “how many of you oppose any form of socialized or government-run health care?”
The audience cheers and they all raise their hands.
Then Green shoots back: “How many of you have Medicare?”
A good number of hands go up from the same audience.
Medicare, alas, is government-run health care.”

It was an art exhibit, not an ogranized group.
“In 2005 the AP reported that an art exhibit titled “Axis of Evil: The Secret History of Sin” contained a number of controversial pieces including one of President Bush. Titled “Patriot Act” the ‘artwork,’ created by Al Brandtner, was a mock U.S. postage stamp with the image of President Bush with a gun aimed at his head.”
Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 5, 2009 5:35:40 PM
——
That was the start of the images. The vile dems decided to reproduce and sell similar items. Michelle Malkin gives information on her site, and while you are there she has posted a multitude of real “angry mob” videos of dem protests.

“In fact, congress is so afraid of the bill they refuse to post it online so that the public can read it in it’s entirety during this recess.”
HR 3200 is available on opencongress and thomas dot gov.
The lesson as always? Right wingers lie.

“Those of us who oppose ObamaCare are in the majority”
________________________________________
Not at all . ..
The majority of the American people support many of the president’s goals, as follows:
* By 79-15, the public supports “Requiring insurance companies to sell health coverage to people, even if they have pre-existing medical conditions”;
*by 65-29, they support “Requiring that all Americans have health insurance, with the government providing financial help for those who can’t afford it”;
*by 63-32, they support “Raising taxes on families with incomes of more than $350,000 and individuals earning more than $280,000”;
* by 61-33, they support “Requiring employers to pay into a government health care fund if they do not provide health insurance to their employees”;
* 52-37, they support “A government health insurance plan to compete with private health insurance plans.”
The American people are having trouble trusting the politicians (who would trust politicians after the last 8 years?), but they support the direction and the intent of the changes the President has outlined.
(figures from Pew poll – July 22- 26)

“So you can lump everyone into a “right-wing liars” group but people who post obvious liberal and far left actions are discounted because they are not “registered Democrats”.
Way to move the goal posts.”
Whose moving the goal posts?
I use the word right winger specifically because not all Republicans are right wingers, not even all conservatives are right wingers.
Saying left wingers or lefties would have been appropriate and I would not have had an objection.

Danita…think again. I am not a “birther,” a radical rightwinger or being paid to manufacturer anger over the proposed legislation on healthcare and cap and trade. I simply am a taxpaying citizen who does not like those proposals because, in my opinion, they will do more harm than good to our country. Get over your righteous indignation and understand there are real people out here who are using their rights to free speech.

“They may have medicare, but that doesn’t mean they think it is fabulous.”
Then the right wing should campaign on ending medicare and tell the elderly to get private insurance instead of being parasites on the body politic.
I am going to go out on a limb and say that that is not going to happen.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that that is not going to happen.
Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 5, 2009 5:49:55 PM

Our memory is solid. It is you dem that are trying to change the rules now, as if anyone speaking up, even if loudly, at these townhalls could hold a candle to the vile behavior of dems during the prior 8 years.
Posted by: MNM | Aug 5, 2009 5:30:43 PM
Saying left wingers or lefties would have been appropriate and I would not have had an objection.
Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 5, 2009 5:47:13 PM
_____________________________________
Well, there you go MNM. Saying “dem” is just too specific for the nit-picker. You must say left wingers or lefties if you’re not referring to registered Democrats. I suggest you keep that in mind the next time you post. The nit-police are always watching.

Danita…think again.
The latest national survey by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, conducted July 22-26 among 1,506 adults reached on landlines and cell phones, finds that many of the health care proposals being debated in Congress are sparking negative reactions, especially from those following the debate most closely. By a 44% to 38% margin, more Americans generally oppose than favor the health care proposals now before Congress. Opposition rises to 56% among people who say they have heard a lot about legislation to overhaul the health care system. Concerns about the costs and increased government involvement in the health care system are volunteered most often by Americans critical of the health care proposals.

bkm . ….
I think you’re having trouble reading. The majority of Americans support many of the goals of Obama’s health care reform.
If you ask them if they approve Obama’s plan for health care, the majority will say ‘yes’.
If you ask them if they like what’s going on in the Congress with health care bills, they will say an almost even mix of ‘yes’ and ‘no’.
People are tired of the politics and don’t trust politicians generally – Congressional Republicans and Democrats in particular.

Loud, ignorant trash.
What should we expect? We saw them during the election, we saw them at their lobbyists’ “tea parties,” and now here they are again, afraid that Obama wants to murder their grandmothers, just because they’re “armed with specific pages and phrases from the bill,” carefully edited to frighten them.

But make no mistake about it, the majority of Americans support the President’s goals: requiring insurance companies to sell health coverage to people, even if they have pre-existing medical conditions; requiring that all Americans have health insurance, with the government providing financial help for those who can’t afford it; raising taxes on families with incomes of more than $350,000 and individuals earning more than $280,000; requiring employers to pay into a government health care fund if they do not provide health insurance to their employee; supporting a government health insurance plan to compete with private health insurance plans.

“Democratic leaders like Pelosi villifying insurance companies and their profit margins while simultaneously rejecting GOP efforts to allow consumers of health insurance to purchase it across state lines. Eliminate this barrier and you increase competition,”
No you don’t.
Eliminate the barrier and you eliminate state consumer protections as all the insurance companies move to the state with the least consumer protections or regulations which is great for insurance company profits but hell on the consumer.

“By a 44% to 38% margin, more Americans generally oppose than favor the health care proposals now before Congress.”
As danita provided in the breakdown, parts of the proposal like cutting Medicare or taxing health benefits are very unpopular while requiring insurance companies to provide for people with pre exsiting conditions and to pay for the poor who cannot afford insurance are very popular.
Also favored are taxing the rich and an public option.

“Any word on those closed door revised HC bills yet? I’m looking forward to reading them online.”
Thomas.gov has all major congressional actions and revisions.

“‘They are the villains in this,’ Nancy Pelosi said of private insurers. ‘They have been part of the problem in a major way. They are doing everything in their power to stop a public option from happening. And the public has to know that. They can disguise their arguments any way they want, but the fact is that they don’t want the competition.’”
“Paul Pelosi has been able to stay in the shadows, even as the millions he has made as a successful San Francisco financier and businessman have helped fuel the political career of his wife, Nancy.
“Because the federal statements require a politician to give only a range of value for investments, they show the Pelosis’ net worth was $14.7 million to $55 million in 2005, ranking them ninth in the House and 17th in the entire Congress.
“The bulk of the Pelosis’ money comes from investments in stocks and real estate. Operating through Financial Leasing Services, his San Francisco investment firm, Paul Pelosi owns stock in companies including Microsoft, AT&T, Cisco Systems, Disney, Johnson & Johnson and a variety of tech stocks.
“Real estate investments include a four-story office building at 45 Belden St. in the Financial District, office buildings on Battery and Sansome streets near the Embarcadero, a building housing a Walgreens drugstore near Ocean Beach and other commercial property in San Anselmo.
“Other investments include a St. Helena vineyard worth between $5 million and $25 million, a $1 million-plus townhome in Norden (Nevada County), and minority interests in the Auberge du Soleil resort hotel in Rutherford, the CordeValle Golf Club in San Martin, and the Piatti Italian restaurant chain.”
So… It is okay for the Pelosi’s to make money but not for insurance companies? Hypocrisy.

Also favored are taxing the rich and an public option.
Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 5, 2009 6:11:28 PM
——–
Blah, blah, blah.
The bottom line is that EVERY SINGLE POLL shows the majority of americans disapprove of Obama’s handling of this, and DON’T WANT HIS CRAPPY RATIONED CARE RAMMED DOWN OUR THROATS.
In fact, a rasmussen poll shows a significant gain in the number of people satisfied with their insurance.
I guess they heard what the alternative government plan to kill the elderly by denying care was up and coming.
Let’s not forget that Rahm’s brother Dr. Ezekial Emmanuel, who is an advisor on heath care to Obama and the white house budget office, has written extensively about denying care to those who are physically and mentally disabled so as to prevent them from contributing fully to society.
These writings were as recent as January and appeared in prominent medical journals.
I think that those writings are very fishy, and scary, especially since this is the type of health care advisor Obama seeks.

“These numbers have been going in the “wrong” direction since June”
And yet they are still way higher than when RCP starting measuring that stat in July of 2007 which had only 24% thinking we were on the right track and 70% on the wrong track.
Time have been tough but many Americans remain optimistic about pulling out of this economic slog.

The majority of taxpayers do not support Obamacare or Obama’s wreckless spending. Usually town hall meetings don’t have a lot of republicans in the crowd because they are too busy working. Keep trivilizing the workers of america. Did you ever notice how the liberals have all day to blog while the republicans are at work supporting their families. The last thing we want is to be bothered, but when it comes down to the creation of another large ill planned/managed government program. We do not believe that any of the jokers in Washington can fix/reform anything. We are out of money they need to stop spending.

Yes… but pray tell, how well were these people dressed… Babs Boxer is keeping track.

ubu1991 . . .
“Did you ever notice how the liberals have all day to blog while the republicans are at work supporting their families.”
___________________________________
The majority of posters on here are anti-Obama types – either they aren’t working, or they’re slacking off at work or they’re paid to be posting their nonsense here. Just noticing . ..

I will be well informed and I will be angry but I am getting a manny and a peddy to go talk to my Rep. If I can find a Barbara Boxer outfit, I’m wearing that, too.

“Who has had control over congress since July of 2007?”
ROFLMAO!
So the GOP took over Congress in 2009 sending the right direction numbers to their highest level in years?
Or did a certain moron President get replaced by a President the people believe in?

If you ask them specifics about specific issues of health reform (see above), you get VERY supportive responses.
Posted by: danita | Aug 5, 2009 6:18:10 PM
——–
People may approve of some of those goals. In fact Republicans have tried to pass some of those reforms such as forcing insurers to cover everyone, and providing a tax credit to pay for insurance, but golly gee whiz the dems voted it down.
However in the polls the public also claim to believe that Obama will make costs and the deficit go up and quality of care and service go down.
So they may support some of those goals but they certainly do not support Obama excecuting (no pun intended) any form of health care reform that includes a public option.

“The bottom line is that EVERY SINGLE POLL shows the majority of americans disapprove of Obama’s handling of this, and DON’T WANT HIS CRAPPY RATIONED CARE RAMMED DOWN OUR THROATS.”
ABC News Wapo 7/20
Obama Handling of Health Care
49% approve. 44% disapprove.
The lesson as always? Right wingers lie.

MNM . ..
The majority of Americans DO support a public plan.
The majority of Americans support ALL of the following, most by LARGE margins: requiring insurance companies to sell health coverage to people, even if they have pre-existing medical conditions; requiring that all Americans have health insurance, with the government providing financial help for those who can’t afford it; raising taxes on families with incomes of more than $350,000 and individuals earning more than $280,000; requiring employers to pay into a government health care fund if they do not provide health insurance to their employee; supporting a government health insurance plan to compete with private health insurance plans.

As King George III said: “Don’t worry about the colonies, it’s manufactured anger, it’s not really how the folks are feeling.”
“To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle…, ‘the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, and the fruits acquired by it.’”
Thomas Jefferson

danita
No, although it is interesting that you liberals never contemplate that people could actually own their own business in lieu of working for others. There are a bunch of crazy americans that believe in America enough to take a chance and invest their money in a business to gain the rewards from the years of hard work. We want our children to have the same opportunity, so they don’t have to work for the government or the union. We still pursue the american dream and do not mind working hard to be successful.

The majority of Americans most certainly do NOT support a public plan. The majority wants nebulous “reform” but are divided on what said reform MEANS. Many want tort reform, many want illegal aliens off medicaid, many want to stop giving medicaid benefits and social security benefits to those who are not working or paying taxes. Many of us are sick and tired of the abuses in WASHINGTON as much, if not more, than any perceived abuses from insurance companies. Our care is stellar and EVERYONE has access to it ALREADY. Stop denying the obvious.

danita: “Further, if you ask people “Do you favor or oppose President Obama’s health care plan?” you get 56% favoring, 38% opposing.”
Who’d they poll? Illegals? ACORN? Unions?
Since Obama has stated he’s never read the plan, and most of America hasn’t either, wouldn’t you say it’s a little premature to be polling people on something they know nothing about?
Hardly anyone in Congress knows what’s in it.
It’s a blatant power grab and pay back to La Raza.

no ‘Danita’, the majority DO NOT support the public plan and Quinnipiac TODAY showed a majority OPPOSED to the plan and unhappy with how Obama is handling it
American voters, by a 55 – 35 percent margin, are more worried that Congress will spend too much money and add to the deficit than it will not act to overhaul the health care system, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today. By a similar 57 – 37 percent margin, voters say health care reform should be dropped if it adds “significantly” to the deficit.
By a 72 – 21 percent margin, voters do not believe that President Barack Obama will keep his promise to overhaul the health care system without adding to the deficit, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University national poll finds.
American voters disapprove 52 – 39 percent of the way President Obama is handling health care, down from 46 – 42 percent approval July 1, with 60 – 34 percent disapproval from independent voters. Voters say 59 – 36 percent that Congress should not pass health care reform if only Democratic members support it.
Voters are split 39 – 41 percent on whether the President’s health care plan will improve or hurt the quality of health care in the nation, with 14 percent saying it won’t make a difference.
Only 21 percent of voters say the plan will improve the quality of care they receive, while 36 percent say it will hurt their quality of care and 39 percent say it will make no difference.
“President Barack Obama and Democratic leaders in Congress appear to be losing the public relations war over their plan to revamp the nation’s health care system,” said Peter A. Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.
also see here
The White House is losing the health care debate. Polls from National Public Radio, Wall Street Journal/NBC News, The Washington Post, Gallup, and Pew all show that the American people do not support President Barack Obama’s health care plan.

Successfully retired…
And you don’t think conservative posters could be successfully retired? You didn’t post that option. Just noticing…

“The majority of Americans most certainly do NOT support a public plan.”
“When asked in a new Harris Poll how strongly they support 14 different government services, five services receive strong, or a fair amount of support, from about three-fourths of all adults or more. The five most popular services are The National Parks Service (85% support), Crime-fighting and prevention services (77%) Medicare (76%), Social Security (76%), and Unemployment benefits (74%).”
Medicare is of course a public plan.
Pew:
“Do you approve of a government insurance plan to compete with private insurance plans”
52% Approv, 37% Disapprov, 10% Dk

To the poster above that thinks 49% is a majority. Go back to school. I do not support the government handling my health and you shouldn’t either. Start thinking for yourself before its to late.

The most telling comment I have heard was one I heard yesterday. If we add 50 million to the those who get medical care, where will we get the doctors to give it? And if it is “free,” then there is no limit to the demand.

The elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about are illegals.
It’s the massive influx of illegals that have skyrocketed health care cost, not “evil insurance”.
La Raza has successfully donated and campaigned to have them all included under this plan.

“It’s a blatant power grab and pay back to La Raza.”
The hatred of Hispanics is gonna sink the right wing in 2010.

Rightwingurrz! Wingnutz! Mobz! Extremistz!
Oh My!
If that’s the “argument” the Democrats are using to defend their disastrous legislation that their filibuster-proof majorities in Congress can’t get through, then it’s an indication that the American people really don’t want Obamacare.
Sorry, libs. You pushed too many people (at minimum 49% of Americans who did not vote for Obama and the independents, whom you’ve now lost) too hard, too fast, flipped them off and told them they’re not only going to have their health care taken from them, but that they’re also going to PAY for all of Obama’s unprecedented government spending, and now you’re getting what’s known as PUSHBACK.
Obama and the Democrats are now tanking in the polls – more than half of America doesn’t want your policy.
And instead of readjusting the policy, you spit on the citizens telling you “NO.” Fine.
Ram your bills through without GOP support if you’re so confident they’re the best things we’ve ever had. The GOP can’t stop it anyway. What are you waiting for? DO IT. We dare you.
See you in 2010.

Doesn’t sound like these paid goons of the conservative PAC’s represent the 70% of Americans who want health care reform.
Speaking of birth certificates, would love to see one for “Bob” right about now…

>Doesn’t sound like these paid goons of the conservative PAC’s represent the 70% of Americans who want health care reform.
Who is paying them?
Names, please. And amounts.
You have proof, right?
Put up or shut up.

“Ram your bills through without GOP support if you’re so confident they’re the best things we’ve ever had. The GOP can’t stop it anyway. What are you waiting for? DO IT. We dare you.
See you in 2010.”
My favorite bill (in terms of political peril) is now being proposed by Anthony Weiner of NY.
He is asking for an yes no vote on continuing Medicare.
If Republicans are so against a public option, let them vote no and dissolve medicare.
Who think they have the guts to do that?

Who’s paying these O-bots to comment here? There certainly are a lot of them now that they polls indicate they’re the minority.
Everybody who doesn’t agree with Obama is a paid shill of somebody in the Democrat Party. Right? Unions paid them off, and the DNC is writing them checks to camp out at news blogs and to post propaganda for the Administration.
Doesn’t matter if it’s true or not – I said so, so it is true. Right, O-bots?
And ObamaCare is going to cut the deficit. Doesn’t matter that their own OMB said that’s bullcrap. The O-bots have declared it, so it must be true.

“Pew stinks!”
Pew is by far the most respected and trusted public polling firm in the country.
“Try quoting an accurate poll such as Rassmussen or Quinnipiac and you’ll find the majority wants no part of this!”
ROFLMAO!
Yes quote the heavy GOP weighting Rasmussen or the Q poll which has yet to come within its a margin of error for an election with the last 6 years.

So the Democrats can’t ram their legislation through because their hard left base says so? Why not? Their majorities are SO HUGE, after all.
Wonder why their own party is revolting against this President and his Chicago thugs so vocally.
By the way, the GOP is now even or ahead of the Democrats in the generic congressional ballot.
Sleep well, O-bots.

“danita and ryanc…recently you were saying that 70% of americans want this. now your down to 52%”
70% is for healthcare reform.
Th 52% specifically deals with the public option in the Pew poll.
The right wing of course remains dishonest and is trying to claim they are the same thing.

“The hatred of Hispanics is gonna sink the right wing in 2010.”
Ryan has once again inserted himself as an expert of “Hispanic” voting patterns.
I’m Hispanic and I in few ways support Obama’s policies and his selection of Sotomayor. I will not comment on his immigration policy as I have not seen anything from him, tho’ I can speculate how he would lean.
Ryan, Hispanics do not vote monolithically as African-Americans typically do (witness 90%+ vote for Obama). You continued comments regarding the “Hispanic vote” demonstrates your ignorance of Hispanic demographics and values within the U.S.

“Cite the Fox journalist who you claim is spewing racist statements.”
Learn to read MNM
“Mr. Antos would like to clarify his remarks. What he actually said was that 45% of the 47 million uninsured are non-citizens; and that it is unclear how many of those are illegal immigrants.

wow..this truly is a battle between free enterprise and socialism. i am proud to see people standing up for freedom and freedom of speech as well. turning people over to the snitch czar…how low can you go?

Freshman Democratic Rep. Frank Kratovil:
One and done.

“A Quinnipiac University poll released on Wednesday found 52 percent of voters disapprove of Obama’s handling of healthcare while 39 percent approve. That was a shift from 46 percent approval against 42 percent disapproval in a July 1 survey.”
-Not a good month to be a Democrat, July was!

The difference between these people and Obama’s vocal supporters–ACORN is paid by taxpayers.

“It does not matter which poll one reads. All of the recent polls show the majority do not want Obama’s crappy rationed, kill the elderly and the infirm, destroy the economy for good, government run health care debacle.”
Except that they don’t even though you keep claiming that.
And that has been demonstrated repeatedly here.
The lesson as always? Right wingers lie.

“Rassmussen has been the most accurate for years. I’m ROFLMAO at you …. as usual! Thanks for the laugh!”
Let’s see they tied Pew for 3rd (finished behind two polling firms tied for 1st) in 2008 accuracy.
They blew the primaries on both sides in 2008.
They blew 2006.
They did ok in 2004.
What a track record!

>Except that they don’t even though you keep claiming that.
Actually, they do. Rasmussen, Pew, Quinnipiac, CBS, etc. That’s called a TREND, son.
You do READ polls that don’t support Obama, don’t you?
You might want to start. There’s a freight train comin’ your way, O-bot. Keep denying it – it’s going to make your tears in 2010 all the sweeter.
>Right wingers lie.
Democrats dont lie. By the way, William Jefferson (D) was just convicted on corruption charges. CULTURE OF CORRUPTION./
But Democrats don’t lie, do they?
Remember when Obama was going to take public funding for his campaign?
And then he flipped 180 degrees and did the opposite? That’s a LIE, son.
One of many.

Why not let the Black Panthers intimidate any dissenters?
Holder won’t prosecute them.

Despicable.
Posted by: danita | Aug 5, 2009 7:43:05 PM
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Perhaps you should report me. But while you are at it ask Obama why he has Ezekial Emmanuel (Rahms physician brother) as an in house, white house advisor on health care to Obama and the white house budget office.
This slimy Dr. has written extensively, in prominent medical journals, about the need to ration health care for the disabled, those with dementia, those who are mentally ill, to give preference to older children vs smaller children and so on.
LOOK IT UP.
All of his science advisors have equally, lets call it Mengele like backgrounds. Such as putting chemicals in the water system that cause sterilization as a population control method.
While that one was written in the 70′s, Rahms brother has written of this rationing as recently as January 09.

“Why not let the Black Panthers intimidate any dissenters?
Holder won’t prosecute them.”
______________________________________
More smear and fear from the Republican right.
Guess what? You’ve cooked your own goose with your repeated biased attacks. The Republican party is obsolete.
Fear and smear. Pathetic. You’re done.

MNM . …
Quit spouting the parrot lies. Go research it yourself.
Fear, Fear, Fear . . . is all that’s left of the Republican right. Oh . .. except for smear, smear, smear.

“Ryan, Hispanics do not vote monolithically as African-Americans typically do (witness 90%+ vote for Obama). You continued comments regarding the “Hispanic vote” demonstrates your ignorance of Hispanic demographics and values within the U.S.”
Bush got 44% of the Hispanic vote vs John Kerry.
In 2006 the Hispanic vote went to Democrat by a 2 to 1 margin.
John McCain who fought his own party on immigration reform got 31% vs Obama last November.
Don’t tell me about Hispanics, explain to your right wing brethren that laying the problems of this country at the feet of illegal immigrants is a stupid and xenophobic tactic that will backfire in country’s whose share of white electorate is shrinking.

>More smear and fear from the Republican right.
That must be Democrat-speak for “facts.”
>Guess what? You’ve cooked your own goose with your repeated biased attacks. The Republican party is obsolete.
Then pass your bill with our HUGE MAJORITIES and be done with it. Why all the drama, drama gueen?
What’s the hold-up? It ain’t the GOP – IT’S YOUR OWN PARTY. Suck, don’t it?
>Fear and smear. Pathetic. You’re done.
Did you hear that? “You’re done.”
That’s Democrat-speak for “stop disagreeing with us – we don’t have a counter-argument and our poll numbers are trending down.”

“It isn’t paranoia if it is true. The thug Obama set up the reporting mechanism. An unprecedented Orwellian system to report dissent of one’s neighbor or another blogger”
ROFLMAO!
Its a system to send in the disinfo so they can respond to it much like they did in the campaign dealing with right wing lies about his birth certificate and being a muslim.
But apparently the right wing needs to be afraid at all times.

Quit spouting the parrot lies. Go research it yourself.
Fear, Fear, Fear . . . is all that’s left of the Republican right. Oh . .. except for smear, smear, smear.
Posted by: danita | Aug 5, 2009 7:51:13 PM
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Instead of spewing insults stop being so lazy and google Dr. Ezekial Emmanuel (Rahm’s brother). He was published in the british journal lancet claiming that we need to withhold care to those with dementia and other infirmities that “prevent them from contributing fully to society”
You display your own ignorance when instead of doing the research you simply yell liar.

“Holder vacated the conviction of these black panther thugs, with their billy clubs/night sticks who intimidated white voters at the polls.”
_____________________________________
Oh hogwash . .. you hurl these accusations without any proof whatsoever. What did you read it on some website? Good for you.

“Don’t tell me about Hispanics, explain to your right wing brethren that laying the problems of this country at the feet of illegal immigrants is a stupid and xenophobic tactic that will backfire in country’s whose share of white electorate is shrinking.”
Ryan, you forget that it’s all about the economy (stupid). Watch unemployed and underemployed Hispanics (of all backgrounds) either vote Republican or not show up to the polls (in spite of ACORN campaigning) in 2010 and 2012. As I’ve also pointed out to you on prior occasions, Bush was a popular governor in a state with a large Hispanic population and also is related to Hispanics by marriage. Wake up.

Thank you for this report. We all know the ultimate decision for the Blue Dogs isn’t their fiscal conservative constituents but how much Pelosi and Reid offer in committees, earmarks, and reelection funds. But I agree with Bill, we applaud Rep. Kratovil for being an adult and facing the music. I know it wouldn’t be so bad if congressional staff were not so dismissive. But then I can never remember if her name is Liz, Lizzy, or Elizabeth J. Becton living off the taxpayer teat to the tune of $50,000+.

>Not much spin required. Just a bit of thought deeper than the right wing sloganeering.
Yes, it’s the RIGHTWINGURZ!@!! and KARL ROVE!@!!!
See, there’s no more Bush, the GOP is in the small minority, and yet, it’s the RIGHTWINGRZ!2!!!
Gotta have a villain, but the only boys in town are Democrats. Nice try. How much are the Democrats paying you to shill for them, O-bot?
Or that your President is failing and you can’t see it though the rose-colored glasses.
That’s OK. Intelligent people who aren’t paid shills of the Democrat party are waking up. And they’re coming out to vote next year.
See you then!

“Holder vacated the conviction of these black panther thugs, with their billy clubs/night sticks who intimidated white voters at the polls.”
_____________________________________
Oh hogwash . .. you hurl these accusations without any proof whatsoever. What did you read it on some website? Good for you.
Posted by: danita | Aug 5, 2009 8:00:22 PM
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Do you read the paper. This is not new news. However knowing how disinclined you are to find facts I will paste a couple of paragraphs from the Washington Times article on this from May 29th of this year:
The flip side of this scenario is occurring right now. The culprits weren’t Klansmen; they belonged to the New Black Panther Party for Self-Defense. One of the defendants, Jerry Jackson, is an elected member of Philadelphia’s 14th Ward Democratic Committee and was a credentialed poll watcher for Barack Obama and the Democratic Party when the violations occurred. Rather conveniently, the Obama administration has asked that the cases against Mr. Jackson, two other defendants and the party be dropped.
The Voting Rights Act is very clear. It prohibits any “attempt to intimidate, threaten or coerce” any voter or those aiding voters.
The explanation for moving to dismiss the case is shocking. According to the Department of Justice: “These same Defendants have made no appearance and have filed no pleadings with the Court. Nor have they otherwise raised any other defenses to this action. Therefore, the United States has the right … to dismiss voluntarily this action against the Defendants.” In other words, because the defendants haven’t tried to defend themselves, the Justice Department won’t punish them

This administration came into office fear mongering and has done it every single day since. We need to rush and get the stimulus bill passed before unemployment goes to 10%. We need cap and trade because the sky is falling. Healthcare is the problem and if we do not change it now, no one will receive medical attention. THEY HAVE LOST THE PUBLIC’s TRUST! SInce they are so woefully incompetent regular americans are turning out in numbers to say ENOUGH!

Why is it that when someone has a different opinion from whatever’s popular in Washington DC at the time, that they are then accused of being “brainwashed” and listening to too much conservative radio? No, you big bunch of bumbling idiots, we are not brainwashed. We are actually USING our brains, which is something that those in government haven’t done in a REALLY LONG time!

A spokeswoman for Justice said facts did not back up the charges, and that career officials at Justice, not political appointees, decided to drop the charges.
“Following a thorough review, a career attorney in the Civil Rights Division determined that the facts and the law did not support pursuing the claims against three of the defendants,” spokeswoman Tracy Schmaler said. “As a result, the Department dismissed those claims.”
Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 5, 2009 8:06:23 PM
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In fact the opposite is true and career folks did not want the conviction vacated, but read for yourself.
By the way there was graphic video of the act.
Again I will refer the ignorant to the Washington Times article of May 29th.
The case was won by default. Google the following title for that date:
“Protecting Black Panthers
The Obama administration ignores voter intimidation”
Now these thugs will be available for “help” with quashing dissent on health care.

“From the Washington Examiner:”
A “paper” trying to replace NewsMax as the go to place for right wingers for hysterical and misleading factoids.
Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 5, 2009 8:11:28 PM
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You may not like that paper but you cannot dispute the facts. Obama’s advisor on health care reform is published repeatedly discussing rationing of health care with emphasis on severe limits to those with dementia and those that are unable to fully contribute to society. The british medical journal, the Lancet, is not a partisan publication.
So get ready for killing the elderly and infirm, at least according to Rahm’s brother, who IS Obama’s health care advisor, after all.
Thanks for giving me a chance to reiterate this lunatic position on health care, held by the Obama team.

Americans should be very afraid of this administration. Now they are using the same tactics as Stalin wherein they are requesting that the White House be notified of emails and casual conversation regarding anything fishy. What would have happened if George Bush engaged in such behavior.

“Posted by: Good Lt | Aug 5, 2009 8:13:54 PM”
ROFLMAO!
I guess its easier for right wingers to imagine some big bad professional poster was up against them rather than some guy who’s not brainwashed by Fox and has acecss to google.
It makes the every day ass kickings easier to take.

“Why is it that when someone has a different opinion from whatever’s popular in Washington DC at the time, that they are then accused of being “brainwashed” and listening to too much conservative radio?”
Psssst when you parrot right wing talking points with little clue as to what they mean, you’ve been brainwashed.

“herein they are requesting that the White House be notified of emails and casual conversation regarding anything fishy. What would have happened if George Bush engaged in such behavior.”
Bush formally enacted the OPERATION TIPS which was meant to enlist everyone from the postman to the cable guy to spy on Americans.
Right wing amnesia would be funny if not so dangerous.

Operation Tips was for Americans to report possible Terrorist activity to the appropriate law enforcement agency. It was not an effort to limit opposition speech to be reported to Chicago Thugs is White House.

“Operation Tips was for Americans to report possible Terrorist activity to the appropriate law enforcement agency.”
Spying on Americans.
“It was not an effort to limit opposition speech to be reported to Chicago Thugs is White House.”
The email Obama has provided is similar to what he did during the campaign in which the collected all the right wing lies then created bullet point responses.
But apparently right wingers have been embracing some weird victimhood/persecution complex in the last year or so.

Looks like the Whitehouse and the Democratic National Committee are liars.
What’s new about that?

“You may not like that paper but you cannot dispute the facts.”
That “paper” does not publish facts. They publish lies for idiots like you to parrot.
“Obama’s advisor on health care reform is published repeatedly discussing rationing of health care with emphasis on severe limits to those with dementia and those that are unable to fully contribute to society.”
Obama’s advisor on healthcare is David Cutler.
Emmanuel has been working with the OMB.

$200 million for private jets.
And they wonder why people are angry.

“You are not making your case Ryan, you are making mine.”
This delusion is quite amusing.
Can you tell me if private insurance (the group whose profits you defend) rations care?

If insurance companies ration care, they can be sued. Large jury verdicts have been awarded that has greatly reduced insurance companies playing god. We will not be able to sue the public option for preserving the public good when they hand out painkillers in lieu of pacemakers.

And Atlas Shrugs Yet Again
Any Rand understood!

Its almost incomprehensible that someone cannot see the difference between reporting possible criminal activity most likely by illegal aliens to local law enforcement (which, by the way, DID make many on the right uncomfortable even so), as compared to asking neighbors to report on each other or kids on their parents, reporting first amendment protected free political speech to the WHITE HOUSE.
Its almost incomprehensible that someone cannot see the difference between party affiliated CAMPAIGN activities of a CANDIDATE, as compared to what is or isn’t reasonable actions on the part of a sitting PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, who is sworn to uphold the Constitution and protect ALL American Citizens, not just those that happen to agree with his party or his personal views or even a particular policy that he would like to pass.
A course in Civics 101 would appear to be badly needed.

Hey, ABC, we’re not insurance companies, and we’re not astroturf. We’re not racists, and we’re not thugs. We are Americans who are very concerned and very alarmed at the spending that our government is doing and the direction of the country. We won’t be going away, ABC. You might want to rethink the liberal agenda; we’re not buying your spin anymore.

“Dumb enough to let him take our freedom away because “he won”.
_____________________________________
Dumb, perhaps. But he won’t be taking your freedom away.

I don’t suppose that all of the hundreds of thousands of middle class people who own mutual funds, or who have retirement pensions that are or have been invested in those private insurance companies deserve to get any benefit what-so-ever from the money they’ve invested over years and years, they ought not get any profit, don’t need anything to be able to live themselves and ought to just donate all that excessive profit to someone else?

In my lifetime, I have not seen an administration or Congress as out of control as this one. If my Congressman has the courage to face his constituents in a townhall meeting, I will be there and I will be heard. For I have no faith that the government can run a program as complex as healthcare. Name one example that suggests they can? And I am mad as hell with the debt our President and Congress have selfishly heaped upon my childrens shoulders. I have nothing but distain for politicians that believe they can reach into my pocketbook to pay for my neighbors car. And I am fed up with a man who is supposed to represent all Americans, yet seems to be concerned only with left wing socialists. The good news? The silent majority will take it no more, and payday will come at the voting booth. Go ahead, Schumer, shove it down half of Americas throats. A brilliant political move with very short legs.

Ryan C,
Earier in this thread you touted the Pew polls as the most repected….
So you would agree with their conclusions:
The public’s current impression of the health care legislation before Congress is more negative than positive. By a slim margin, more Americans say they “generally oppose” (44%) the health care proposals being discussed in Congress right now than “generally favor” them (38%); 18% offer no opinion.
Americans who say they have heard a lot about the health care bills in Congress oppose them by a wide margin (56% to 36% margin. Those who have heard little or nothing about the bills are divided about evenly (40% favor, 35% oppose) with 24% offering no opinion.

“I don’t suppose that all of the hundreds of thousands of middle class people who own mutual funds”
_____________________________________
Their mutual funds basically lost approximately 40% of their value at the end of the Bush administration. They have been gaining some back in the past 6 months.

These alleged choices are ridiculous in most cases. Most people can’t afford to pay for expensive procedures out of pocket. They can’t just switch once they have an identifiable pre-existing condition. So they should go to the press and hope to get a reversal by embarassing their insurance company on TV or in the papers??
Posted by: Skip | Aug 5, 2009 9:41:20 PM
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They can also sue and appeal.
In any event they wouldn’t dare restrict to the extent recommended by Obama’s advisor Zeke Emanuel.
In any event with a single payer there is no alternative, EVER., They can ration to their heart’s content and there will be no competition and no pressure to do better.
With insurance companies if they ration word gets out and they lose business. The government will have no such fears which is why every other government rationed health care program has result that are so poor.
16% higher cancer death rates.
Our insurance companies would not dare refuse cancer treatment, nor force you to wait for care for so long that your cancer becomes exponentially worse.
There is no upside to national health care. NONE. Insurance companies can be influenced one way or another to do the right thing or they go out of business. No such luck for the government.

Do insurance companies ration medical care? No. They set out a contract up front which specifies what is and what isn’t covered for the premium you pay. You decide if you want to buy that plan or get your health care insurance elsewhere or pay for your health care yourself. That doesn’t restrict you from obtaining health care. If the contract says that the item is a covered benefit, then they cannot legally deny care for those items.
If you have insurance and something isn’t covered, again, you aren’t restricted from obtaining it – the insurance company just isn’t obligated to pay for it according to the contract you signed.
If you have a single payer system, this is no longer true. Single payer, and there IS rationing. Look at Canada. Look at Britain.
Look at Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Indian health care system all within the US run by the federal gov. In those, there is either outright rationing and denial of care, or they are bankrupt and only making it by running up our national debt or increasing our taxes. Massachusetts is having major problems. Hawaii tried universal coverage for children only – and went kaput in something like 8 months. Meanwhile, with the “lower administrative costs” in medicare and medicaid, its estimated that there is several BILLION in fraud each year. That’s not really lower admin costs, not when you factor in those kinds of losses.
If the federal gov. hasn’t been able to successfully run ANY of these yet, why in the world is there any reason to believe that they can take on MORE and run that any better than what they already have? How about we see them fix those things FIRST?
Then with single payer or systems like medicare, VA, etc., unless you are able to go outside those systems to get your care elsewhere on your own dime if there is a real problem getting care… — and now, imagine the entire US in on a single-payer system. Canadians already come HERE because of rationing in Canada.
So… where are you going to go? You’ll already be paying for care, not getting it, and on top of that cost needing to go elsewhere on your own dime. Think you’ll be able to afford THAT?
Not to mention, now you have to not only be able to find somewhere that has an open system that will allow you to purchase your care with your out of pocket dollars, but now you’ve got to also be able to pay to fly to another continent, unless you think Mexico has better health care than we do.
This is not a recipe for success, not a recipe for better care at a cheaper cost. Non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has already blown massive holes in the “cheaper” claim. So this plan doesn’t get us anything good, not better, not more accessible, not cheaper. Quite the opposite on all counts.

Obama surprised us all because Democrats have always nominated from the center…pro defense,tax cutters like JFK or welfare reformers like Bill Clinton. The birth certificate is irrelevant. The Democrats forgot to check Obama’s Party WING affiliation. Turns out he is from the hard left. And they are bit hard of hearing. Cap and trade is already dead. Health reform just as of this week looks even deader. I mean they REFUSE to put themselves under the system? Are you kidding? If Obama’s only victory does not start working until 2012 (stimulus with a small s) and his # 2 and 3 priorities crash just… where are we?

And Atlas Shrugs Yet Again
Any Rand understood!
Posted by: ubu1991 | Aug 5, 2009 9:16:31 PM
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VBG!! That’s why I just couldn’t resist the phrase! Not the best story telling, man did the ‘lectures’ drag on, and she REALLY didn’t ‘get’ romantic relationships/love — but she sure as heck got and predicted the tug and pull between rational thought and independent merit versus an entitlement mentality, and how that dynamic would wind up playing out over time in our political system. Unfortunately. I used to think, ok, good tale, but things would never get anywhere near THAT bad. Well, we’re still not end pages, but man, more and more I turn around and unbidden “atlas is shrugging yet again” pops into my mind over one thing or another.

“mandatory end of life counseling”
______________________________________
More lying and fear, fear, fear . . .
There is no mandatory end of life counselling.
Posted by: danita | Aug 5, 2009 9:18:49 PM
========================
What do you base that claim on Danita? They may have removed it, after all of the uproar over it, but there was a provision apparently between page 425 to page 430 that required mandatory counseling for all seniors at a minimum of every five years, more often if the senior is sick or in a nursing home.
Now, imagine all of the counselors that would be required. The costs to train them. The administrative costs to handle such a program. That’s aside from the gross moral and ethical aspects of mandating something like this.
Lets not forget Obama’s wisdom here, he has been clear. Grandma or Grandpa probably ought to just take the pill (they don’t need no stinkin’ operations, no care, just take the pill, will ya?) Sheesh.

The Democrats have misread and misunderstood the public reaction to Obamacare to an extent that will come back to haunt them mercilessly. They have sown the wind, and to my great delight they are going to reap the whirlwind.
Try to imagine what must be going on in the White House at this moment. They are astride a tiger, and they haven’t a clue as to how to dismount.
They will pass “something,” and it won’t include a public option, and they will call it victory. Those with sense will laugh at them uproariously. This gang of amateurs is clueless, and the nation is awakening to that fact.

Until Congress puts in the first line of any bill that all federal employees shall be moved over immediately to any public option, they can kiss my support good-bye. If it’s good enough for the people who pay your salaries, boys and girls, it’s good enough for you.

Also there is no single payer option being considered. H.R. 3200 does not set up a single payer option. Neither does the Senate bill which there is some but very little information on at this time.
From what is out there private insurance companies would still be present. Is starting with a public option immediately the right direction. Honestly no.
Cost is the singular issue that has now officially gotten lost in all of the rhetoric name calling and chest thumping. Both sides have ideas which can contribute to bringing down health care costs. However partisanship in the House and below has become so blinding on both sides that its gotten swallowed up in the zeal of many. Currently the Senate has shown in their work on their health care bill a great deal of bipartisanship and from what little information is available it would appear that the public plan option has been dropped for co-ops. Again not a single payer system. Should they jump to this right away. Well perhaps not, but it is much lower on the government involvement spectrum.
On the side insurance companies actually do “ration” health care. Its refered to as rescission. As stated you could sue the insurance, but then you are talking about a year or more of lawsuits while ones health deteriorates. Take one example that was put front and center in congress. A nurse after discovering she had breast cancer had her policy dropped, because after a visit to a dermatologist for acne the doctor unknown to her wrote in her medical chart that a spot may be cancerous.
Another investigation into health net resulted in the levy of a 9 million dollar damages award for their practices of recission.

It really is a shame that the debate so often bogs down on things like whether end-of-life care discussions will be mandatory or simply covered as expenses. It seems clear now that the controversial language merely changed the current Medicare regulations to allow these meetings to be covered, allowing one every five years or more often if one develops a major illness or enters a nursing home.
However, it is easy to see why there was confusion. The language, as quoted in another comment, is all about sandwiching new language into existing regs. Faced with over 1000 pages of such stuff, it is easy to make a mistake or two. It would be nice if everyone allowed that sometimes partisans on all sides (I refuse to think of the health care/insurance debate has having only two opposite sides) will misunderstand or make mistakes in interpretation. That does not make those partisans liars or any of the other ugly names folks here are way too quick to throw around.
Another quick reminder (my longer version got bounced, probably because I mentioned an organization whose very initials always get my comments pulled– very weird)– not everyone who disagrees with the White House’s approach to health insurance reform is a right winger. There are plenty of moderates and right-of-center conservatives, and even many liberals, who want reform (although admittedly some do not) but do not want this particular set of reforms. I for one think the WH vision of reform is a recipe for disaster that does more harm than good.
My opposition to the president’s health care reform campaign does NOT mean:
1. I am guided by insurance company lobbyists, Republican talking points issuers, and/or conservative radio hosts or organizations.
2. I dislike the president personally.
3. I am motivated by political considerations, such as whether “winning” the health care debate will help Republicans gain seats in the next election.
4. I subscribe to lunatic fringe theories about the president, such the Birther movement. (Would it be fair to assume that Danita, liberal supreme and top cheerleader for the president, is a ’9/11 was an inside job’ believer? Nope. So it would be nice if people would not try to use the Birthers to try to besmirch the reputation of those with more legitimate gripes against the administration.)
5. I am part of an unruly mob, or that I am more interested in drawing attention to myself than to expressing my views.
We should be having a civil debate on this crucial issue– health insurance/health care reform. The White House should not imply that people who disagree with them are unruly mobs or mindless creatures manipulated by evil opportunists making political hay. Neither should the visitors to Mr. Tapper’s excellent blog.

Who are these people writing the comments? I am young and fit, but still, one of my biggest worries in life is about losing health care. These people trust the insurance companies whose sole purpose is to make profit. I think if these people stop watching Fox News, the channel that never complained when Bush Administration was ruining this country and almost drove our economy off the cliff, they will really see what this health care is about. Please read the health care reform yourself before making these comments.
AD

The last sentence is the key, if it is not manufactured, they are brainwashed. The daily show did an excellent piece this week, showing Steve Ducey on Fox spouting out right wing talking points, then they showed people repeating his talking points, then they showed fox news reporting on it …showing the circle on how fox news brainwashes a near brain dead viewership.

Heres actually another thing.
Reality is that in many ways Obama has fallen essentially to what I say is figurehead status. Namely he just like Bush, just like Clinton, just like every single president before and after gets blamed for anything and everything even if they were not the ones that started or crafted what is going on.
Several times it has been made apparent that while he has given some basic this is what I would like. He has not completely denied any other option from the table, and has actually left all of the crafting to the Congress itself. For the first part this is visible in how apparently different the Senate bill that is moving forward is in that it does not appear to make use of a public option. If he was looking to exert more control that fact would get quashed and not permitted to proceed. Also to start on the second part there is a reason why the democrats in both the house and the senate have become increasingly vocal that Obama is not telling them what to do and guide the legislation more. At the same time it was the Congressmen that actually proposed implementing a tax on benefits. Could he have said wait a second absolutely not. Ya he could have, but instead he said he may be open to it.
Of course like all presidents he has the final authorizing authority but we aren’t there yet and the actual contents of the individual bills have been laid out and put forward by the congress itself. Is he selling it? Ya he is, but most times if you watch he is talking about health care reform in a more general manner. Namely we need to reform health care because its cost growth is out of control and it is/will damage the economy with this growth. That is something that both the democrats and the republicans have agreed about.
He will take the blame because it is his administration, and he is putting himself upfront about the reform, and as a result tying himself to anything created by congress.

These alleged choices are ridiculous in most cases. Most people can’t afford to pay for expensive procedures out of pocket. They can’t just switch once they have an identifiable pre-existing condition. So they should go to the press and hope to get a reversal by embarassing their insurance company on TV or in the papers??
Posted by: Skip | Aug 5, 2009 9:41:20 PM
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Look, Skip, I’ve got a problem with a few of these issues also. The thing is, it doesn’t take anything approaching this huge bill to address them.
For one thing, currently those who get employer provided plans are getting huge gov. tax credit/subsidies even tho you don’t see it directly. This isn’t true for those of us purchasing individual policies. That should be addressed.
Next, for many many years if you get a group policy, after a reasonable waiting period (I believe 6 months?), they cannot refuse to cover you because of pre-existing conditions. You’re covered. That ought to be extended to individual plans also.
Next, the issue you mention — once you have an identified problem, can you switch. Well, you can if you change jobs, so again, we’re back at a question of a simple regulation change that allows anyone who currently has coverage, to not be excluded by other companies so you can price shop and switch if desired.
Allowing policies to be sold over state lines would seem to be another simple thing that would drastically increase portability and increase competition too. I know, with so many things issues that often seem simple turn out to be complex, but some of these things are already existing laws for some groups… extending them to others shouldn’t be an issue and would be a huge step in the right direction. All without a total upheaval of our system and destruction of private insurance that the vast majority of Americans are satisfied with. And that’s been shown to be the case on multiple polls.

Moderate you hit on one thing that really could have been the better approach in all of this. Step legislation for the reform. Namely since cost is the central issue to all of it you step in system adjustments to cut the fat and inefficiencies from the industry. Such as push into more centralized electronic systems. Pushing the system into fixed salaries for the doctors rather procedure volume compensation such as at the cleveland clinic, and other hospitals in the nation which have some of the lowest care costs with the highest results.
You step things in such as that, and then review it say 5 ten years down the road to make adjustments per changing environment. Something along the lines of say the public option, or co-op can then be triggered in if after system costs have come down insurance companies have been meeting or not at all.

For both atlas and moderate. That would be great if infact the people in general and the House of Representatives can drop their partisan crap and actually have a civil non childlike discussion. Both sides have become as bad as each side is saying of the other.
What these town halls have shown though is that most refuse to even take the time to listen and see what all the available options can do. They expect a concrete 100% answer for everything and if its slightly wrong then your now a liar. No side is innocent.

These alleged choices are ridiculous in most cases. Most people can’t afford to pay for expensive procedures out of pocket. They can’t just switch once they have an identifiable pre-existing condition. So they should go to the press and hope to get a reversal by embarassing their insurance company on TV or in the papers??
Posted by: Skip | Aug 5, 2009 9:41:20 PM
——————–
Look, Skip, I’ve got a problem with a few of these issues also. The thing is, it doesn’t take anything approaching this huge bill to address them.
For one thing, currently those who get employer provided plans are getting huge gov. tax credit/subsidies even tho you don’t see it directly. This isn’t true for those of us purchasing individual policies. That should be addressed.
Next, for many many years if you get a group policy, after a reasonable waiting period (I believe 6 months?), they cannot refuse to cover you because of pre-existing conditions. You’re covered. That ought to be extended to individual plans also.
Next, the issue you mention — once you have an identified problem, can you switch. Well, you can if you change jobs, so again, we’re back at a question of a simple regulation change that allows anyone who currently has coverage, to not be excluded by other companies so you can price shop and switch if desired.
Allowing policies to be sold over state lines would seem to be another simple thing that would drastically increase portability and increase competition too. I know, with so many things issues that often seem simple turn out to be complex, but some of these things are already existing laws for some groups… extending them to others shouldn’t be an issue and would be a huge step in the right direction. All without a total upheaval of our system and destruction of private insurance that the vast majority of Americans are satisfied with. And that’s been shown to be the case on multiple polls.

“Most intelligent people do not just make those purchases without researching it, comparing one product, deal or service to another, and getting 3rd party inputs.”
__________________________________________
Mike_C dont’ be naive. Health care reform has been under study for decades both within and outside of government.
Professionals within the system have put long hours into investigating how this would work best, how a public system could be incorporated with a private insurance system, how costs could be cut . .. this is not something that began at the beginning of the Obama administration.
As good Republicans will tell you, they have been responsible for bringing forward various approaches on health care over the years – as have the Democrats. Much, much preparation has been put into this issue.
It’s been basically studied to death. Details and overviews of all of the ‘cars’ (your metaphor) have long been assembled.

know exactly what happened – the right wingers pulled that section out and DELIBERATELY pretended it meant what they came to delightfully term ‘kill granny’ legislation.
And then they posted it on all their right wing websites, and broadcast it as truth – and THEN – naive people came to believe it was true.
Despicable.
Posted by: danita
———————————
CONSPIRACY….CONSPIRACY….CONSPIRACY….CONSPIRACY….CONSPIRACY….CONSPIRACY….
danita, try the grassy knoll, I heard at my local “angry mob” meeting tonight that all the right-wingers will be there….

There is no upside to national health care. NONE. Insurance companies can be influenced one way or another to do the right thing or they go out of business. No such luck for the government.
Posted by: MNM | Aug 5, 2009 10:04:51 PM
————————
NHS in Britain, the rationing council, oops, I mean, the group of dedicated professionals who determine which treatmeents are the best and most effective (did I word that right?) just announced that they will no longer allow steroidal anti-inflammatory injections in people with back pain from undetermined causes. I’m not certain, but I believe they may have included hip and knee also. They recommend instead that these people try acupuncture or osteopathy instead (neither of which have been shown to help significantly with these types of moderate to severe chronic pain).
Doctors are raising the alarm as this will leave tens of thousands of patients in significant to severe and disabling chronic pain with have NO viable treatment option other than very high daily doses of narcotic pain killers, which sometimes still isn’t effective for spinal problems.

They may have removed it, after all of the uproar over it, but there was a provision apparently between page 425 to page 430 that required mandatory counseling for all seniors at a minimum of every five years, more often if the senior is sick or in a nursing home.
***
It seems clear now that the controversial language merely changed the current Medicare regulations to allow these meetings to be covered, allowing one every five years or more often if one develops a major illness or enters a nursing home.
***
Hey Atlas,
moderate and others are right about this. I posted on it several days ago here:
conservatives point to SEC. 1233 of the House Tri Committee bill, a section titled “ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.” But while the language allows Medicare to reimburse providers for consulting with patients about end-of-life issues, nothing in the section mandates a consultation. On page 429, the bill specifically states that seniors “may” consult with medical professionals — not government bureaucrats.
The bill aims to provide seniors with information about drafting a living will or the options surround end of life care, information Americans have been asking for. A recent report by ThirdWay found that “although 75% of Americans feel advance directives are a good idea, only 40% of Medicare patients say they have one.” Given the lack of clear information, “many patients sign documents that don’t offer clear instructions.
“This measure would not only help people make the best decisions for themselves but also better ensure that their wishes are followed,” AARP Executive Vice President John Rother said in a statement. “To suggest otherwise is a gross, and even cruel, distortion — especially for any family that has been forced to make the difficult decisions on care for loved ones approaching the end of their lives.”
Jon Keyserling, vice president for public policy and counsel at the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization, said: “I was surprised that any responsible legislative analyst would indicate this is a mandatory provision. That is just a misreading of the language and, certainly, of the intent.”
Republican Senator, Susan Collins, sponsored a nearly identical initiative this spring, before it became a GOP talking point:
On May 22nd, Senators Collins and Jay Rockefeller introduced the “Advance Planning and Compassionate Care Act.” (You can google it to check out the press releases)
So, one thing I find rather ironic about how this particular item has been turned around is that it may have been an effort to include a wee bit of bipartisanship!! (Note I said ‘may have’)
***
Also, Good/Bad, I really love your thoughtful comments on health reform both here and on other blog posts at Tapperlandia. Thanks so much for pointing out that there are multiple bills and a long road we still have to travel, with opportunities to hammer many things out if everyone gets serious. And thank you for pointing out that insurance companies actually do “ration” health care. They absolutely do! Often much more than Medicare does.

Uh mike maybe Im missing where your quote ends and you start. However isn’t a initial delay period before application of new requirements typical in all things. Where I work there were several changes in HR policies that are being implemented and they wont take effect until next year until which the old system stays in place.

“It’s hard to nail down the most egregious stupidity in the comments section, but as a dual-national Brit-American, living in London these days, can I just make clear to my Yankee brethren that even with the NHS we still here have the choice to buy private insurance.”
___________________________________
“Firstly NHS is not trying to abolish injections. The guideline states that they should not be used for people who have had back pain for less than a year with pain of no specific cause. Nowhere does it state that injections should not be offered full stop.”
Details . . . always details.

good & Bad
your right, but a company will not annouce those changes until they have clearly defined them, can tell you what the impacts are and then explain to you how the changes will be brought online.
I have been through that many times in my near 30 year professional career.
We are being told we need to rush this through and need it now, yet this thing is not a plan. ALL, and i mean ALL the real details will be left until after then bill is law.
That is why the people are not supporting this bill now. The more time the people have to read it, and determine that it is FULL of unknowns and holes, the less they want to trust the Obama and the Dems to implement it.
Think of it this way, you hire a contractor to build your house, you give him an outline and pay him in full up front.
He builds your home anyway he wants to. substandard parts, minimum insulation, used appliances, cheap paint..etc.
Your mad because you didn’t get what you expected. He turns and shows you the fine print in the contract that you did not read. Then he walks away saying…”DEAL WITH IT”

And Atlas . …
“When a legislative/regulatory document lays out that something is to be done, unless it specifically states that the item is voluntary, then the item is mandatory. It becomes law.”
_______________________________________
Atlas even the smallest amount of research would clarify this without you repeating more untruths.
Regarding the counselling sessions …
“Furthermore, the bill would not make these sessions mandatory. [This part of the bill] modifies section 1861(s)(2) of the Social Security Act, defining what services Medicare will pay for – if these definitions made treatments mandatory, seniors would all be required to get artificial legs and midwife services, too.”
Just a little bit of research before posting nonsense would be greatly helpful.

…We should be having a civil debate on this crucial issue– health insurance/health care reform. The White House should not imply that people who disagree with them are unruly mobs or mindless creatures manipulated by evil opportunists making political hay. Neither should the visitors to Mr. Tapper’s excellent blog.
Posted by: moderate | Aug 5, 2009 10:47:44 PM
———————
A very good post Moderate.
I hope that you are right and the end of life bit is just to allow its coverage. I have to admit to some skepticism there, however, since in my experience (limited, but real and more than a single case) those discussions and issues get pretty well covered already when its appropriate, and without any charges to the patient.
The leaps to judgment and demonization of others that occurs on these boards really is a shame. That the president and democrats are actively engaging in such behavior against citizens is extremely disconcerting.

That section of the bill is refering to what the counseling session will have in it if one has not occurred within the last five years.
It is refering to end of life counceling sessions but it is going over the actual content of those sessions
Namely “If the individual involved has not had had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following” Its is refering to them but it is talking about their content.

Uh atlas its not just the democrats and the liberals or the white house. That in itself is the root cause of the current problem. It is all sides no one is innocent in the demonization, lies, mischaracterization, and spin.

This is why you can not trust the American public to have a full understanding of any complicated legislative proposal.
Posted by: The Dude
It is also EXACTLY why the People DO NOT TRUST the same politicians who left holes in the stimulus bill to write this one in this way!

The daily show did an excellent piece …
Posted by: Donnie | Aug 5, 2009 10:55:35 PM
——————————
The Daily Show as your reliable news source?? Comedy skits are now equated with reliable investigative journalism.
Exit polling from the 2008 Presidential election, asking simple basic questions such as who is the speaker of the House, which party has controlled the house for the past two years, which part has controlled the senate for the past two years, etc, found that those who watched fox news scored significantly higher than those who watched any other news source.
What single exit poll question was the most predictive of which candidate was voted for? If you answered which party controlled house and senate for the past two years WRONG, chances were high you voted for Obama. If you answered that question correctly, chances were you voted for McCain.
I’m sure you’re right tho, anyone who watches fox is just brainwashed.

This provision AMENDS the Social Security Act section under what medical procedures are covered by Medicare. It is a list of procedures/treatments, etc., that qualify for coverage under Medicare.
Thus, the provision REQUIRES Medicare to cover these counseling sessions IF THE PATIENT AND PROVIDER CHOOSE TO HAVE THEM.
Posted by: The Dude | Aug 6, 2009 12:39:52 AM
****
Thank you, Dude!! Exactly. The section of the Social Security Act amended includes things like kidney disease education services,certified midwife services, prostate cancer screening tests, ultrasound screening for abdominal aortic aneurysm — NONE of those things are mandated; what they are is defined and covered.

Alyson -
The problem is… we lose them at: “amends.”
And they get them at “end of life.”
The battle for truth is a struggle worth fighting for.

Good/bad, I quite agree. I long for grownups in leadership positions in Washington to actually lead and debate and work in a bipartisan fashion. Neither side is blameless.
Posted by: moderate | Aug 5, 2009 11:25:00 PM
————————-
Me three!

Politicians have us all right where they need us once again…divided. Imagine if we all went to the ballot box next time and sent every politician packing who has served over six years…..
Posted by: William Goodwin | Aug 5, 2009 11:27:39 PM
—————————
Hi William,
I partly agree with you. I think that its pretty clear there are quite a few on both sides that need to GO. They need to be voted out very very badly.
That said, there is some serious value to knowing your way around a job, and knowing how to get things done. Knowing the institutional history.
So, the problem is getting people in each voting area to actually take the time to LEARN a little about what the incumbent has actually done – or not done.
Then for folks to actually vote a huge number of these people who show zero common sense, zero real concern for their constituents AND the welfare of America as a whole (perhaps not the best choice of words considering the issue we’re debating? g).

Mike_C dont’ be naive. Health care reform has been under study for decades both within and outside of government…..
Posted by: danita | Aug 5, 2009 11:28:28 PM
————————–
Oh please Danita, don’t be disingenuous. This bill was slapped together behind closed doors. Not even Pelosi denies that.

Alyson -
The problem is… we lose them at: “amends.”
And they get them at “end of life.”
The battle for truth is a struggle worth fighting for.
****
Grinning:) We need a more sensational sound byte.

You guys can argue fine points all you want.
Name me something that doesn’t involve killing bad guys and blowing stuff up that the government runs well…..
No thanks I’ll stick to what I have.

The Dude wrote: “This is why you can not trust the American public to have a full understanding of any complicated legislative proposal.”
Yet how can our Senators and Representatives have a full understanding of any complicated legislative proposal if they don’t read the bill? Even President Obama said he doesn’t know everything that is in the proposals. THAT IS ONE REASON WHY SO MANY AMERICANS ARE EXPRESSING THEIR ANGER!

“Firstly NHS is not trying to abolish injections. The guideline states that they should not be used for people who have had back pain for less than a year with pain of no specific cause. Nowhere does it state that injections should not be offered full stop.”
Details . . . always details.
Posted by: danita | Aug 6, 2009 12:01:36 AM
———————–
Ok, so patients with severe back pain of unspecific cause should suffer for for a full year before they can get injections. Well, that’s ok then!!
Even tho the time that those injections may be the most effective and also most likely to help prevent permanent nerve damage is in the first three months after the pain starts, and the longer the problem persists, the less likely anything will be able to fix it.
All makes perfect sense tho, it should save some money for NHS.

James Danley . ..
“Yet how can our Senators and Representatives have a full understanding of any complicated legislative proposal if they don’t read the bill?”
__________________________________
Seems to me some research should be done on how bills are written, reviewed, amended, put through committees and so on . . .
It’s a process that’s been in place for centuries, including under the last President and administration.

If we cannot trust the American people to understand the legislation that is passed by the national legislature, then why even pretend to operate as a democracy? Admit to rule by bureaucracy and dissolve the electoral process. Is it possible that we are just not angry enough yet to take control of the public servants we elect and direct their work to our benefit as opposed to corporate benefit? I’m mad and I’m getting involved. Try it, it feels good. Read, think, confront.

And Atlas . . .
“I have/had no problem conceding that I could have been in error”
_________________________________________
It’s not that you COULD have been in error, it is that you WERE in error . ..

Uh atlas its not just the democrats and the liberals or the white house. That in itself is the root cause of the current problem. It is all sides no one is innocent in the demonization, lies, mischaracterization, and spin.
Posted by: Good/Bad | Aug 6, 2009 12:48:03 AM
——————–
No arguments here Good/Bad. The degree and extent coming from the White House right now is, I think, really unprecedented, however. The president obviously still represents his party, but once elected he is supposed to rise above that and represent ALL of us. EQUALLY. It is very disconcerting to me to see the president running private individuals down, fear mongering, and acting in such a blatantly divisive fashion. Perhaps things like this have happened before my time, but this is the first I’ve seen anything like it coming from the WH.

Hey Alyson, I haven’t been to any of the other threads that we were posting on yesterday yet… any of ‘em where I’m missing something? Did you catch my reply to you on one about search options?

“This bill was slapped together”
____________________________________
Sorry, you’ve already proved ….
Posted by: danita | Aug 6, 2009 1:36:26 AM
—————————
Riiiiiight. Go talk to Nancy Pelosi.

“Danita wrote: “It’s a process that’s been in place for centuries, including under the last President and administration.”
So you are okay with the fact that our Senators and Representatives vote on bills without even reading them?”
________________________________________
No James, I’m suggesting some research on how these bills are actually written and reviewed, the role of committees, the role of Congressional staff, the role of Congressional researchers, the complete vetting process. Just because the Congressman or the Senator may not read every word, does not mean the bills aren’t thoroughly reviewed and revised many times, with the elected officials being properly briefed, given opportunity for feedback and input, and well-informed on the content of the bill and the amendments.

This myth of government inefficiency is foolish. Government employees rarely face cost cutting strategies similar to WalMart’s treatment of their employees but is that our goal? Social security, Medicare, the post office, the military, police and fire protection and a litany of others operate smoothly and predictably. My private insurance operates to pay me as little as possible.Is that good health care policy or would you rather trust a government run entity like Medicare?
Posted by: karen kroczek | Aug 6, 2009 2:07:51 AM
———-
Karen, its hardly a myth, I’d say the gov’s own figures and reports pretty much bear the inefficiency out. As to walmart employee’s – who in the medical industry are you comparing them to? The insurance bureaucrats? If so, then YES, we want them to be efficient and held to standards of accountability and to be run like any good business. That’s OUR money they’re using! Why would we want them to be anything less?
Social security and medicare are bankrupt. Many parts o f the country, fire departments are volunteer – I donate to mine regularly. The ones that aren’t volunteer are funded locally I believe, or thru state funding. The post office hasn’t ever run in the black, IF you include the capital costs, costs of the buildings, maintenance, etc., in other words, everything that any real business would have to count on the books. Police is a local entity also. Fed Ex and UPS typically are both cheaper and faster and more reliable.
I haven’t personally had medicare/medicaid, but my elderly parents have, along with having to purchase medigap — I’ll take private insurance, thank you. ANY DAY.

Another lie spread around here was that 4 of 5 (80%) cars sold in ‘Cash for Clunkers’ were non-American made.
“General Motors Co. had the largest share, accounting for 18.7 percent of new sales, followed by Toyota Motor Corp. with 17.9 percent. Ford Motor Co. was third with 16 percent of the sales. Detroit automakers represented 45.3 percent of the total sales while Japan’s Toyota, Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. accounted for 36.5 percent . . . most are built in North America”

“hat’s why the Stimulus had a 300 page (or was it 400?) managers amendment”
____________________________________
If you only knew, you’d be much better off. But you don’t – and you haven’t double checked your sources on the story. How do I know this – because of all the other nonsense you’ve posted.
And Atlas . . .
“I’d say the gov’s own figures and reports pretty much bear the inefficiency out.”
_______________________________________
Oh yes, and how many government reports have you read to verify this statement? Name them. And don’t lie.

…HOW ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS OPERATING IN TOTAL INSOLVENCY?
p.s. Want a list?
“Shillbilly List”
#1 – “danita”

In 6 months, Obama has added $1 Trillion to the National Debt. That enough numbers for you?

Thanks Alyson . .. . looks good.

What these people are doing is no different than if someone launched a DOS attack against Rick Scott’s website. It’s not free speech. It’s the disruption of speech.

Seems to me that the people screaming at this meeting were just reciting the same crap they’ve heard on right wing radio and Faux News.
Was there not one intelligent question asked at this meeting? Or was the whole purpose for one group to prevent any meaningful discussion of health care reform?
Every adult American in this country KNOWS we need some kind of health care reform. That isn’t even an issue. But the level of vitriol spewed at this meeting is not only unnecessary, but uncalled for – it smacks of bullying and intimidation.

["BIGGER FED = SMALLER INDIVIDUAL." CONCEPT LIBS CANNOT PROCESS OR UNDERSTAND.]
On the contrary, the real equation is “BIGGER CORPORATIONS == SMALLER INDIVIDUAL”

An honest man, among honest people, making an honest report? How did that one ever get by the ABC censors. The other so called “News” stations are probably going for file an unfair competition protest.

Watching the morning shows and hearing about the Washington Post’s reporting on the compromise being hammered out by the Gang of Six in the Senate. I think this is a bill I could support, from what I’ve heard so far. No to the government option, yes to the taxation of benefits. Haven’t seen any mention of malpractice reform, which I’d like to see, but that can come separate.
It’s nice to see a truly bipartisan, moderate group try to work together on this issue. I am pulling for them.

[But the level of vitriol spewed at this meeting is not only unnecessary, but uncalled for - it smacks of bullying and intimidation.]
It smacks of right-wing talk radio and FAUX News.
******************
It is right out of obama’s, emmanual, and axlerod’s playbook. We experienced it in the primaries and in the caucuses. The obama campaign bussed the caucus trainees (straight from caucus training camp) from out of state to get in the faces of the people who normally attend the boring caucuses. The obama people cheated, intimidated, and harassed Clinton supporters. Their strategy worked and they’re trying it again. This time it’s not going to work because you have the Clinton supporters (18 million) remembering this crap.

Sorry, Tommy, you are all wrong. We are not repeating anything we heard on Fox News. You are the one who is misinformed. Have you read the Bill? Well I have and if you will notice, a lot of those people had copies of the paragraphs in the bill that pertained to them. Specifically end of life counseling. If you are not concerned, then you should be concerned for your parents. 500b is going to be cut from Medicare/Medicaid to pay for this outrage. Certain brands of pills will be rationed; knee and hip replacements will be denied, cataract operations, ct scans, cardiac stents will be denied. What kind of quality of life would seniors have? Furthermore, illegal aliens will be getting health coverage that should be going to American citizens. If you want to pay for them, have your employer deduct an appropriate amount out of your paycheck. A woman who spoke out at one of the meetings said they were not paid to be there and in fact, the first three rows were Reserved for ACORN and SEIU. I suppose it’s o.k. for Obama to send his ACORN and Black Panther thugs out to intimidate us but it’s not o.k. for us to protest. Obama’s “chickens are coming home to roost.”

The White House and Congress self ambition and personal power grabbing tactics will result in America becoming the world’s largest third world banana autocracy. Personal freedoms are eroding and the state run media i.e. ABC should be ashamed for their lack of journalistic integrity. There’s still hope though. until martial law is declared we patriots can be active in challenging this repressive government that favors only self.

Kravotil is nervous because, as a first-termer, he knows this bill stinks but is being pressured by the congressmen-for-life (Frank, Pelosi, et al).

Looks like Obama has broken another campaign promise.
That he would be president of all people. He dismisses those who disagree with him.
He wants neighbor to spy on neighbor and report anything fishy to the government.
I’m 54 y/o and I can’t remember a time when a president has divided the country on so many levels as Obama has.

Y’know, the whole point of a town hall meeting is to have access to your elected official. You don’t have to scream and shout, he standing right there! It’s a great opportunity to make a point, if you actually have one. These folks don’t. They can’t actually defend their opinions, so they try to make a scene instead. Pathetic.

It used to be, at least for the last 8 years anyway, that the point was the protest. And not the manner in which it is carried out.

The raucous nature of these town hall meetings still pales in comparison to leftist activism. Conservative speakers on college campuses are sometimes treated so badly that security is required. Loggers run into potentially fatal spikes said to be planted by radical environmentalists. Local financial institutions are reportedly intimidated by ACORN members. Anti-nuclear protesters lie down in front of vehicles. Consider the antics of Code Pink and PETA. These town halls are, in comparison, tame and reasonable dissent.

Nothing will change for the better until people realize they are being swindled. Left versus Right is a constructed battle. I’m liberal in a lot of ways, but I’m just as offended as the rightest of righties when our government spends money frivolously and needlessly. I hate wasting money, and we do it all the time.
However, making sure people don’t have to file bankruptcy because they get cancer is a worthy cause and we SHOULD have universal health care. I couldn’t even afford insurance until I was 29 years old (repaying FAFSA was kicking my butt)- – that’s NOT something for our country to be proud of. When someone’s child comes down with a rare form of cancer or diabedes and our government is able to step in and say “Mom, Dad, don’t worry about it, we got this”- – now that’s something to be proud of.
We waste money on weapons systems that we will never use against a target that doesn’t exist, we spend untold billions every year on covert operations (including planting CIA operatives in the media, which is illegal) meant to destabalize regimes that are democratically elected, only to install our own dictators that we eventually have to topple, yet we can’t protect our youngest most vulnerable citizens from dying of H1N1 if they can’t afford the emergency room. What is wrong with us that we spend so much to destroy life, but we can’t (and actively argue no to) take care of our weakest?

Maybe they are angry because they feel ignored. These people, myself included, have been complaining about all the increased government spending since Bush kicked it off with the initial bailouts. Yet we feel ignored, as evidenced by the continual rush to spend more and more money. Being calm and respectful hasn’t gotten our point across, and despite polls showing otherwise, Obama and rfiends keep telling us the majority of Americansfavor his plan. They don’t. Read a damn poll! And since being calm and respectful gets us ignored, maybe being loud and shouting will make our point made. The ridiculous part is this notion that the right made all this up and that the left has never been angry and shrill. Did you miss the 60′s? Did you miss Cindy Sheehan? Also, why is it that Bush/Hitler comparisons and calling Bush a chimp were considered not only acceptable, but virtuous, while calling Obama the same is racist? Hypocrisy, thy name is liberal.

I saw a bunch of well dressed people today. I hope they don’t start breaking things, do you think they will start stealing TV’s, will we have to call in the National Guard. Someone notify the White House and Barbara Boxer that I think they were going to lunch. We will continue to observe these unrully well dressed mobs as they place the lunch orders.

While it takes some “guts” to stand in front of voters and try to discuss the issues…it still flys-in-the-face of the hash that this Congress is creating of the economy, the nations debts, the back room negotiations, the attempts by the WH to silence decent (report to the WH?), the new mantra of a Gov’t Co-OP VS Gov’t healthcart designed to decieve. And YET there are those who are amazed that there are people upset??? Try P.O’d!
One of two things will happen…if CAP & TAX, Gov’t Healthcare (by whatever name), New Taxes, More Illegal Alien give aways as the political elite in DC think best as they fly in the new AF Gulfstreams and pay themselves increases as the rest of us look for work….a massive overturn of elected gov’t (throw the bums out) or a near revolution as more police are laid off, crime rises, the dollar is deflated, the gov’t defalts on Pensions and Social Security as the public treasury is sucked dry!
YES MR WHITEHOUSE… I AM OPPOSED to the “Joker” and his clowns in congress!

For people who want another picture of a town hall meeting, you may want to check out the editorial in the Napa Valley Register, a paper which endorsed McCain. While I do understand some of the upset over this– everyone has a right to voice their concerns–I also agree with the bottom line in the editorial in regards to the vitriol and catcalling and disruption (and I don’t mean all criticism or questions– I’m talking about the truly disruptive stuff, that stops actual meaningful debate). Here’s what they wrote:
“Monday’s event was out of character for Napa County political clashes, even hotly contested ones. In our view, most politically active people here have better sense than to debase the debate that way.
Unbridled anger is not a substitute for intelligent discussion. Catcalls are not replacements for hard questions and criticism.
For health care reform critics or anyone in political life to get their message across effectively, our message is that they should choose a more substantive and respectful approach.”

These are some of the “high” points of the bill that I noticed.
Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The “Health Choices Commissioner” will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No “judicial review” is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll
• Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesn’t’ have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.• Page 203: “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it really says that.

Alyson says:
“For health care reform critics or anyone in political life to get their message across effectively, our message is that they should choose a more substantive and respectful approach.”
Fortunately for us the GOP has been trying that in Congress but the current leadership has little interest in producing a bipartisan bill. So as Pres. Obama mentioned in the caucuses and during the primaries “protest is the most ideal form of dissent”. Also as the President so succinctly put it, “it’s time for the gloves to come off and for the constituents to get in the face of their elected representatives”.
Seems kinda funny that all of a sudden when the “Liberal Spin” is losing it’s mass appeal that now the people who are “taking the gloves off” are being referred to as a mob. Maybe the Chavacrats should fall back on the plan they usually use. Which is calling all disenters racists, bigots, and liars.
You made the bed have fun sleeping in it.

And Atlas Shrugged. . .
“I’d say the gov’s own figures and reports pretty much bear the inefficiency out.”
_______________________________________
Oh yes, and how many government reports have you read to verify this statement? Name them. And don’t lie.
Come on, let’s see the list . . .
Still waiting . . . you phony

Emergency rooms can refuse treatment if they can claim that your problem is not an emergency medical condition. Because ERs are required to treat people without regard to ability to pay, some people who are unaware of the actual provisions of the law assume that this means that everyone has access to medical care already. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, the lack of non-emergency care ends up costing us as a society much more than if we had paid for the non-emergency care in the first place. This is because people with communicable diseases, conditions that will eventually become emergencies, and others will not be treated until treatment becomes much more expensive.

I’m sure they just hid those darned buses somewhere! Did ABC look behind the school? Under the football field bleachers? In the auto shop area? There MUST have been a bus somewhere!

Brian’s points make a lot of sense–I looked to see where Flash Override debunked anything. Other than his well taken point about emergency rooms, I could find anything!

Posted by: BOHICA | Aug 6, 2009 11:31:53 AM
“Don’t let the camel’s nose in the tent. Remove FIRSt all government health insurance mandates and restrictions. Return health insurance to a complete a la carte choice. Allow intra-state sales of insurance. Get government out of the way first, then see what insurance costs on the free market.”
PS
and after the price drop the public can buy private insurance for those that need it… Let’s remember that and not let the leftist ideologues use the poor as an argument to nationalize healthcare. We can have wider and better coverage by getting government out of the way.

I don’t know anyone in the insurance industry but I do know American citizens who are going to be screwed by this garbage. Why don’t you take time to READ what is really in the bill then make some statements.
If you are a true democrat you were one to argue against the wireless wiretapping bill but you seem just fine with all the intrustion into our personal lives when we hand our entire system (health, manufacturing, financial)over to the government. So either this makes you a hipocritic shill for a particular party (chavacrat?) or ignorant. Which are you?
Perhaps you will list the “high” points of the bill you wish for.
Just so you know, I am completely in favor of “health care reform”. I am not in favor of a government monopoly. There is a reason that monopolies are discouraged. Any know? Any one? Competition brings prices down. Monopolies force prices higher.
DON’T THROW THE BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER. Fix the system that 200 million of us are at least adequately covered under. Get rid of the provisions that protect illegal immigrants and allow for a real “bipartisan” compromise that fixes the problems.
I am for term limits anyway. Remove every chavacrat and republicon and I will be happy.

“I don’t know anyone in the insurance industry but I do know American citizens who are going to be screwed by this garbage.”
______________________________________
Millions of Americans are being screwed by the current system, both those with and without insurance – and the taxpayer who is forced to pick up the costs of medical care for the old, the infirm and the vulnerable while the insurance companies skim off the cream from the young, the healthy and the employed.
Health insurance reform will pass and it will not be the boogie man people make it out to be.
The fear and smear campaign against health care reform is bogus.

I am outrageously outraged about ‘these people’ stirred up anger, its like someone told them ‘to get in the faces’ of those who disagree! Its as if, Republicans sent e-mails out from Washington with talking points! And how do I know this because Obama and Axelrod have sent me an e-mail to tell me these things! And Obama would never ever lie or use double talk after all this is a well planned out Health Care Plan for us little people and Obama and Pelosi deserve much better care than we do you, silly people!

It’s not unusual for someone with a ’cause’ to organize disruptive rallies.
It is a shame they chose to destroy the actual questioning and responses in a town hall format, by bullying and dominating.

Danita:
How do you know we aren’t going to be screwed by the government monopoly that “single payer” represents? Did your elected officals tell you that? Did you actually read anything on the bill or are you just taking peoples word for it? I actually READ portions. That is what I posted earlier. Just like I asked override. List your bills “highpoints”. I am up for a compromise. I am ok with a piecemeal bill that fixes one problem at a time. You and the democrats are up for creating a line of credit (aka Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security) that you can pull off of anytime you want to tax and spend. I am not for anything that increase the deficit. I am not up for anything that makes me or my parents a ward of the state.
Your ignorance is going to make us into Venezuela. Get informed then make a decision that is intelligent.

How ironic that leftists are mindlessly repeating what they have been told—that opponents to Obamacare are merely repeating what THEY have been told. Dem leaders have been lying about the content and the intentions of Obamacare, and now they are lying about who is attending these protests and why. Pelosi preposterously claims they are wearing swastika’s Such pathetic desperation to cover the truth.
People don’t want to lose their current health care coverage in order to support a single-payer system of the kind that has failed so badly in Canada and the UK. The “reality-based community” needs to understand that peoples’ opposition is genuine.
In another irony, it is the ACORN rent a mobs of 40 paid people who show up for “demonstrations” that are Astroturf. No one is being paid to sahow up at town halls. The Left is used to having the public protest gambit all to itself. Starting on January 20, suddenly dissent was no longer the highest form of patriotism. They aren’t liking this taste of their own medicine one bit.

America please wake up. Government that pits itself against American business “to keep companies honest” (which is NOT the role of Government) and then pits citizens against each other – is a government out of control. Of course the uprising is real and of course they are mad and they should be. Wake UP!
Trust me, the brainwashing is not on the side of the protesters. The brainwashed are those who have forgotten which country they live in.
FREEDOM means that we don’t have to be ‘all or none’ thinkers. ‘All or none’ thinking, btw, is typical of a child who is around 10 years old. So, perhaps Americans not only need to wake up, but also need to grow up and handle their own freedom to find solutions that do not put government in control of our lives. Solve the health care problem the AMERICAN way!

At least this guy is willing to listen to the people he represents. My own rep (Susan Davis, California) is so scared of the people she represents that she is only holding a telephone townhall. My two senators (Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein) are not holding ANY healthcare meetings with We the People.
We the People are going to vote out of office those who think they are our rulers. They should be acting as servants of the people.
I’m mad . . and no one has paid me to say this!

Alyson says:
“For health care reform critics or anyone in political life to get their message across effectively, our message is that they should choose a more substantive and respectful approach.”
Posted by: Brian | Aug 6, 2009 12:56:47 PM
Brian, that quote was from a conservative newspaper. I agree with it, but it wasn’t my spin or message. It was from the Napa Valley Register, a newspaper that endorsed McCain.

Roger, that email that Brian so thoughtfully pasted in for us is so old its great-grandson is in college. It has been debunked so many times only a fool would fall for it.

Alyson: “Facts are stubborn things!”
They sure are!
Obama: “I would hope that we could set up a system that allows those who can go through their employer to access a federal system or a state pool of some sort. But I don’t think we’re going to be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately. There’s going to be potentially some transition process. I can envision a decade out or 15 years out or 20 years out where we’ve got a much more portable system.”

Alyson: “Brian, that quote was from a conservative newspaper. I agree with it, but it wasn’t my spin or message. It was from the Napa Valley Register, a newspaper that endorsed McCain.”
Is your claim that they are a “conservative” newspaper due to their endorsement of McCain? Endorsing McCain brings them closer to the moderate section of the political spectrum, not the conservative end.
In any case, this is an editorial article where opinion is given. The article agreed with the unsubstantiated liberal claim that the outrage displayed was “organized” or manufactured in other words. The overall tone of the article was negative toward conservatives. Clearly, they are capable of partisanship.

Flash Override wrote: “Single-payer would cost less, and insure better care, and cover everyone.”
So instead of the federal public option covering the 47 million uninsured and another 20 million or so who voluntarily change to the public option, it will cover 330 million people. HOW is THAT going to cost LESS?
With 330 million people going to their doctor for the common cold (currently treatable by a number of over the counter products), for minor cuts, scrapes and burns (currently treatable by a number of over the counter products), and maybe even common indigestion (currently treatable my a number of over the counter products), not only will the doctors’ offices be overwhelmed with patients, but at $100+ per doctor’s visit and maybe an additional $50-$100 for tests…WELL YOU DO THE MATH! And that doesn’t even include the hundreds of thousands of individuals who will have annual healthcare costs of over $250,000 (for multiple surgeries and lengthy hospital stays).
The only way that the single-payer system will cost less money will be to ration healthcare and create a risk-reward system to determine who will or who won’t receive medical procedures.

danita said,
“More lies, what a surprise! Canada’s system provides world-class health care to every one of its citizens. You repeat the lie.”
Well – you might want to talk to some Canadians before you say that. . .

The people aren’t angry at you personally, Rep. Katrovil, they are angry at the Bait-and-Switch tactics at work since January, and rightly so.
This article today from Victor Davis Hanson is the fullest review I have read of why and how the Good Will towards Obama and Congress has paused and started to turn:

More fear tactics, what a surprise!
“a single-payer system of the kind that has failed so badly in Canada”
More lies, what a surprise! Canada’s system provides world-class health care to every one of its citizens. You repeat the lie.
So, more fear and lies . … why is this not surprising?
Posted by: danita | Aug 6, 2009 2:27:12 PM
——————————
Canada’s system does NOT provide anything close to world class care. Where did you get that tidbit? People recently had to SUE in Canada to get the rights to pay for private health care, because the single payer system has so many problems. There have been numerous articles on the problems Canada is having, and I’d be amazed if you haven’t seen posts or articles on that situation, Danita.

By the way, Danita posted before that claims of 4 out of 5 cash for clunkers being foreign makes was false, a lie I believe was the term… well, hum, lets see…
CNNMoney: Aug 5th: Toyota’s Corolla sedan overtook the Ford Focus as the best-selling vehicle in the “clunker” program. Toyota had two other passenger cars, the Prius hybrid and the Camry, in the top five. The Honda Motor Co Civic was No. 3.
Hum…. 1, foreign, 2, domestic, 3, foreign, 4, foreign, 5, foreign…. seems like that’s 4 out of 5 to me isn’t it?
Ap, Aug, 4: “The Obama administration is refusing to quickly release government records on its “cash-for-clunkers” rebate program that would substantiate — or undercut — White House claims of the program’s success, even as the president presses the Senate for a quick vote for $2 billion to boost car sales.”
and at that time: “LaHood, for example, promotes the fact that the Ford Focus so far is at the top of the list of new cars purchased under the program. But the limited information released so far shows most buyers are not picking Ford, Chrysler or General Motors vehicles, and six of the top 10 vehicles purchased are Honda, Toyota and Hyundai.” To be fair, there have been claims made that some of those foreign cars have been built in the US, and that is possible, but there is no way to verify those claims if the Administration won’t release or delays releasing the data until after the vote.

Can’t blame them at this point. Some congressmen have had effigies hung outside their offices. One congressman received a death threat, and another has actually been assaulted.
There is venting ones frustration, but this has gone way beyond that.

The congressmen for wanting individual one on ones, and or not having them at all now.
Also my patience is done with this childish entirely uncivil crap thats occurring right now so I must apologize and clarify.
First the death threats and several effigies have been confirmed.
Second as for the actual assault I’m half skeptical, but leaning towards its very likely considering the above.
Basically what has occurred today is that Rep. Connelly has stated that at a recent public event one of the Freshmen congressmen was assaulted physically. A) No name currently available makes me partially skeptical about the severity of this. However B) the fact that death threats have started being made against members of congress leads me to believe that there certainly is some trueth behind it.
Perhaps my utter disgust at the complete and utter break down of civility and reason at all of these has made me to jump the gun a bit, but again once you start having death threats made is it that hard of a jump to assault.
For those still actually interested in a civil debate and discussion I apologize if this seems one sided. Trust me it is not both sides have over the last 20 years become increasingly shameful.

Thanks for the clarification Good/Bad. I had only heard of one effigy, and one supposed and unverified death threat. I very much hope it didn’t occur, but as many people as there are out there … well, there is no question that there are some kooks and/or sick people.
These politicians have brought this on themselves to some extent. Its still not acceptable, don’t get me wrong – but people have been civil and reasonable and expressed themselves and been not only at times utterly ignored but other times vilified, patronized…
Have you seen the DNC ad that’s out now? Its a slap in the face to all citizens. People don’t respond well to being slapped in the face and marginalized. Especially when their very way of life and health is being threatened.

Its not just Republicans either. You’ve got a registered Democrat yelling at Steney Hoyer (sp?) that Obama spent more time picking out his dog than working on the health care plan.
I’ve seen quite a few video’s of the ‘mobs’ at townhalls, and most of them aren’t bad at all, some are quite moving.
I just googled “death threat” AND “health care” and found only one. I have to say I’m VERY skeptical of it also, because although its not reported this way in some reports, apparently its Brad Miller of N.C. and hw says he’s one of hundreds of lawmakers who have received death threats.
Meanwhile, you’ve got Pelosi saying there’s no real anger, its all ‘astroturf’ and that people are carrying swastika’s (I’d like to see any proof of that).
Harry Reid is also being totally dismissive and demeaning, arguing that “critics on the political right have run out of ideas—and ditched their civic manners…. Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada accused the protesters of trying to “sabotage” the democratic process.”
So, anyone who happens to disagree with him first is automatically a republican, second is an idiot that he has to take care of because he knows better and they’ve just got empty heads, and besides which, they’re just destructive and trying to destroy our entire system. Its no wonder constituents are getting boiling mad. Look at the attitudes arrayed against them by the very people who are supposed to be representing and serving them!!!!!!!
Reid seals it, there’s no question of his disdain for his own constituents: “The Republican Party says it’s not behind the protests, but Reid scoffed at the notion that the protesters reflect grass-roots sentiment. He held up a piece of artificial turf during a session with reporters.
“These are nothing more than destructive efforts to interrupt a debate that we should have, and are having,” Reid said. “They are doing this because they don’t have any better ideas. They have no interest in letting the negotiators, even though few in number, negotiate. It’s really simple: they’re taking their cues from talk show hosts, Internet rumor-mongerers … and insurance rackets.”
So now we’re obstructionist idiots in league with insurance RACKETS, what’s that, like the mob or something??
It gets even worse. From another article: “But as polls show Obama’s approach losing favor with voters—particularly independents—Democrats are talking more openly about the possibility of moving legislation without Republican support.”
So, as the public they are elected to serve tells them more and more strongly they DO NOT WANT THIS, instead of listening, they block it out and look for ways they can do an end run to shove this down our throats anyhow.
Then there’s the Obama surrogate, Douglass wasn’t it, making out like Obama never said he prefers single payer system, when the video is right there of Obama saying exactly that.
Worst of all, Obama setting up the snitch system, asking people to report on each other. That’s just despicable and may even be illegal.
So… I guess at this point while I don’t agree with being really disruptive in a public meeting, at this point I think the reaction of the WH, Obama, and congressmen is far worse. If anything, they’ve got to be held to a higher standard than the general public. Instead, they are acting like children and in a very destructive, despicable, partisan fashion.

G/B: Right now both parties need to actually stand up and publicly say enough is enough you can vent your anger you can go and ask questions, but do not be rude, uncivil, and violence is entirely uncalled for an inappropriate. They have helped push this as far as it is its time they put the breaks on rather then ratcheting it up even farther which is what they are doing.
——————-
Atlas replies: I could not agree with you more whole heartedly!!!
——————
G/B: To be honest, both sides are doing the ignoring and the patronizing.
——————
Atlas: With respect to the health care issue? G/B, what examples are you referring to here?
————————–
G/B: That and the reality is many many people who do not purchase private insurance but get it through the employer to be honest are completely ignorant of the real costs of health care most times.
——————
Atlas: I’m sure you’re right. Its very much a hidden expense – and one that I believe would be far better if the tax exemption were extended to individual plans also. It might be too much to try to end employer provided health care, but I think that we’d all be better off and that the cost would be reduced overall, choices and portability increased, if the middle man of the employer were gotten out.
——————
G/B: For people and politicians to sit there and tell some one that the only reason they want health care reform is because they are lazy and looking for hand outs is horrendous. SO no its not one sided,
————–
Atlas: Who said this?
—————
G/B: and as I have tried to make abundantly clear I truely am utterly disgusted with both parties from the Senate down. The senate I am holding my breath on because overall they have been fairly quiet and they are currently working on a bill that seems from what information has come out that it is bipartisan.
——————-
Believe me, you’re not alone in being disgusted with them all. I’ve less animus towards the Repubs with health care right now only because they haven’t piled onto this massive house bill, and yet they have tried to offer other options and solutions.
I have to take a serious look at the Senate bill — honestly I was under the impression that it wasn’t currently available tho? That they were keeping it under wraps until they could come to some agreement? If so, there isn’t much to say about it…. and honestly I don’t even hold out much hope for it as you do – not until I see it. I’ll give it benefit of the doubt, but that doesn’t mean that I have a lot of faith that it will actually be something that will improve things rather than just meddle and muck things up worse.
That said, I DO suspect it will be better, or at least far less egregious than the house bill. :0)

Is your claim that they are a “conservative” newspaper due to their endorsement of McCain? Endorsing McCain brings them closer to the moderate section of the political spectrum, not the conservative end.
In any case, this is an editorial article where opinion is given. The article agreed with the unsubstantiated liberal claim that the outrage displayed was “organized” or manufactured in other words. The overall tone of the article was negative toward conservatives. Clearly, they are capable of partisanship.
Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 6, 2009 4:35:33 PM
***
Anonymous,
Actually, I put conservative because when I first heard about it I was told it was a conservative paper that typically endorsed Republican candidates and views, but in my other post I had taken that out because what I verified was that they endorsed McCain. So, I spaced here– but others have characterized it as conservative to me.
And yes, it’s an editorial, but the paper is used to covering intense town halls, and found it to be more raucous than usual. It kinda reminds me of when I went to a “peace demonstration” and the protesters started fighting and throwing things. I left– I mean, hello. Peace?! I had to agree when op-eds said it was ironic, and not a very awe-inspiring demonstration of “peace.”
Anyway, I don’t know if you’ll see this but I wanted to respond, because I do think protest is a good thing– but constructive dialogue is priceless:)I stand by that, and keep hoping we’ll ALL (self included) learn to disagree civilly and with some open-mindedness. And while I don’t think all, or even most by now, of the outrage is manufactured– I think flames are getting fanned in a disingenuous manner.

I’m sorry Alyson, but on this one you are badly mistaken. Its kind for you to assume that the government has good intentions, but history warns us strongly against making just such assumptions.
None of us know exactly who will wind up having access to this information or exactly what will be done with it. The folks working in the Gov are humans as we all are, and unfortunately historically humans with access to the wrong sort of information or with access to power or worse, both together, sometimes abuse their positions. Its these very people who are in a unique position to do great harm to many individuals. Have you ever watched the movie Enemy of the State? If not, I highly recommend it, its an excellent movie all the way around (Will Smith).
Alyson, the ‘right wing blogs’ and talk radio etc. didn’t purposely misinterpret the intent. THEY READ EXACTLY WHAT THE WHITE HOUSE BLOG WROTE WORD FOR WORD AND TOOK THOSE WORDS SERIOUSLY AND LITERALLY AS THEY WERE WRITTEN. They believed that the people who wrote them meant what they wrote, rather than assuming something better of them.
Frankly I’m a bit floored that you would interpret that as purposely misinterpreting for the purpose of rabble rousing or fear mongering. Especially as you note yourself that you wish the wording had been different.
You misunderstand also, Alyson – the conservative media isn’t ‘fearmongering to the fearful’ at all. Quite the opposite – this is anger at grossly inappropriate behavior on the part of the WH, not fear. Its working to stop something that they should have known better than to have ever proposed let alone implemented.
This private individuals trying to limit the power and scope of the Federal Gov. and protect the personal rights of ALL citizens (even those who trust the gov. totally). These are some of the very founding principals of our nation – and we are trying to protect them.
From this standpoint, that blog post is creepy as all get out, and grossly unprofessional to boot. Its childish. Take the first bit for example. Frankly its hard to see how one can interpret it as anything other than this Linda Douglass outright lying with regard to Obama’s on record (multiple times over multiple years) preference for moving the US to a single payer system. She’s trying to convince us that we can’t trust our own ears and eyes, and that Obama really never said what he really said???? How Orwellian can you get?
Then from the white house blog verbatim : “Opponents of health insurance reform may find the truth a little inconvenient [putting down anyone who disagrees with them], …
Scary chain emails and videos are starting to percolate on the internet, breathlessly claiming, for example, to “uncover” the truth about the President’s health insurance reform positions. [HERE is the fear mongering. We are now being informed that there is something coming to us that we need to watch for and be afraid of, because its evil, they'll be lying to us]
….makes it look like the President intends to “eliminate” private coverage, when the reality couldn’t be further from the truth. [except he is on video and separate transcript/video saying that he believes single payer IS the way to go and what we need to move to!]
For the record, the President has consistently said that if you like your insurance plan, your doctor, or both, you will be able to keep them [and when FINALLY pressed on it, he has qualified this to say 'well, NOT LITERALLY... not the ones where employers will dump private plans for public option, or decide not to offer anything anymore and take the tax instead, not those...' and yet another time, he admitted that he wasn't familiar with the provision that made issuing new private policies illegal unless within the Exchange -- and that the exchange specifies so many details of the plan that for all intents and purposes these are no longer private plans - not to mention the entire forcing over into the public option issues -- these are pretty blasted major aspects of the plan, and he wasn't familiar with them, but hey, he'll swear that we can keep our doctors, keep our insurance that we have...]
And the kicker: “These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov.”
EMAILS OR CASUAL CONVERSATIONS. WE CAN’T KEEP TRACK OF THEM ALL SO WE’RE ASKING FOR YOUR HELP. IF IT SEEMS FISHY, SEND IT TO THE WHITE HOUSE.
So now the White House is using TAXPAYER DOLLARS to get citizens to send anything THEY THINK IS QUESTIONABLE FROM OTHER PRIVATE CITIZENS emails – and conversation certainly implied too – containing protected 1st Amendment Free Speech that the White House clearly disagrees with to the White House.
Its like begging for abuse. I’m sorry Alyson. I know you really like President Obama and this Administration. This particular action is grossly wrong for ANY president and ANY administration to take, pretty much any way you cut it. Its just not the sort of thing that is reasonable to leave to the assumption of good faith on the part of a massive government organization, when you are dealing with free speech and political policy debates etc.

And Atlas Shrugs Yet Again wrote: “So now the White House is using TAXPAYER DOLLARS to get citizens to send anything THEY THINK IS QUESTIONABLE FROM OTHER PRIVATE CITIZENS emails – and conversation certainly implied too – containing protected 1st Amendment Free Speech that the White House clearly disagrees with to the White House.”
You hit it right on the nail!
Where is the outrage from the American people regarding this? Where is the outrage from the media regarding this? Actually asking Americans to forward emails they receive from other Americans–who oppose the Administration–to the White House so that the White House CAN KEEP TRACK of these correspondences.
Where is the outrage from the American Civil Liberties Union?
Is this the change that you people voted for?

THEY READ EXACTLY WHAT THE WHITE HOUSE BLOG WROTE WORD FOR WORD AND TOOK THOSE WORDS SERIOUSLY AND LITERALLY AS THEY WERE WRITTEN.
***
I’d also like to say, show me. Prove it. I’ve checked it all out, and that just isn’t correct.

How can you possibly justify questioning my credibility on that? Its the White Houses credibility that you ought to be questioning.
Posted by: And Atlas Shrugs Yet Again | Aug 7, 2009 1:10:50 PM
***
You said the right wing blogs didn’t purposely misinterpret it. Well, if you take what the WH blog said and then go to certain right wing blogs, it’s purposely misinterpreted. I’m not saying everyone is purposely misinterpreting it, but there is a sleight of hand at work. It’s very good– but it’s still sleight of hand.
On this particular subject, I think you have trouble seeing the sleight of hand. So on this, I’m wary of your take. And there would be things, I’m sure you’d be wary of my take on and I’d admit that was rightly so– maybe this is one of them for you, but I’m not wrong, and you stated I was as if it were a fact. I don’t appreciate that, and I will push back.

Kratovil does deserve “props” for facing the crowd. And there should be a happy medium between shouting and being locked out of the meeting as happened elsewhere.
People get the impression, correctly so, that the majority is being marginalized, not listened to. They don’t have the “big mic” that Obama has, and they don’t have the megawatts and monopoly that the media enjoy. So they’re frustrated, and they’re mad, and they’re loud and at times disorderly.
It takes only one individual to hang someone in effigy. The homosexual couple who hung Sara Palin in effigy were lionized by the liberal press, but a democrat hung in effigy is a deplorable act of violence. In today’s climate, it is at best counterproductive.
Liberals look to their talking points, and they listen to what they want to hear. I know people who only know what Jim Lehrer tells them about politics! If you hang your representative in effigy, that will be the only message that gets out; that WILL be the message the media promulgate.

Atlas, just asking, do you get the sleight of hand in your own post?
You say:
Do they have your email address? Yes.
Do they have your IP address? Yes.
Do they have your name? In many cases
Okay– let me ask you a question. Are they collecting and cataloging those and monitoring by name ????Are they looking up the names associated with IP addresses? Please. You say, to paraphrase, “oh nooooo! they can look it up” but they’ve said very specifically that they’re interested in correcting the information out there, not stopping it, not anything remotely as frightening or ridiculous as its being played up.
Cornryn accused the WH of putting together an enemies list. Now, I have no problem with him writing a letter and asking questions, fine. His request makes some sense. But why not wait for answers before feeding red meat to the hungry pack without evidence on the accusations of intent.
I don’t want to spend a lot of time on this because I really do find it as stupid as the ginned up Muslim scare of the campaign and the silly “birther” thing. Plain and simple, I disagree with you. I take offense at you telling me I’m wrong when I looked up quite a few blogs and followed the snowball, and watched where non-facts and wild speculation was added on. I’ve watched the same thing with the same cast before. It gets old, and I take offense at people telling me I don’t get it. I. get. it. I didn’t get all personal and single you out and tell you how wrong you were specifically until you singled me out.

Of those six I highly doubt its all from one side or the other. Neither side is entirely innocent, yet few refuse to accept that fact.

Also just because there are actual interested people there does not mean that everyone there is just that.
Some congressmen have gone back to their home districts and had no altercations no shouting, just honest questions about what is going on and the people listened when they tried to speak. Obviously thats not the case everywhere. Just the same there will be honest concerned people. Infact most likely are, but at the same time you can count on those opposed to this are bringing in some people to disrupt activity. Is it everywhere no, is it the great vast majority no. However, when it comes to a mob it only takes one person to start a riot especially when tensions are this high.

Here’s a thought…
The best defense is a good offense. Perhaps the people who attend the rallies who want there to be an actual discussion of the issues “stand up” to the thugs.
I suggest that right when the hecklers start their act, that people from the audience get up out of their seats and go right up in front of the noise makers. “In their space”, make it uncomfortable. They should not say anything, or try to provoke a fight. Just stand there silent (and brave). If the thugs move to the side, the silent moves to the side – between the thug and the speaker. The idea is to make it very uncomfortable for the person yelling to continue yelling.
And it will be great for the news media to see people standing up to these hecklers in a non-violent way. Perhaps the people who choose to stand up and go right in front of the hecklers could have a sign pinned to the back of their shirt that says something like:
“Stand Silent For Change”.
This will give the news media lots to talk about.
And, hopefully no one gets punched out, but if they do it makes an even stronger point about these thugs.
I do not have any events in my area, but I would do this if I had a chance. But, I don’t think the silence protestors should be bussed around to different areas, that stoops to the thugs level.
I think it’s time to stand up, and be silent (and non-violent).

I was there and I was at another event of Kratovil’s that day. First, there were THREE events that day, not four. Second, people are outraged this man voted for Cap and Tax, when his district was strongly against it. He said he was “undecided” on that bill too, just before he voted FOR it. Third, his staff is rude, disrespectful and contempuious to the voters.

I think the basic free speech argument is good enough– why add on false accusations?
Posted by: Alyson | Aug 7, 2009 4:52:21 PM
Actually I should have said free speech and right to privacy.

The Left can certainly dish it out. But they can’t stand it when somebody turns the table on them.
Posted by: James Danley | Aug 7, 2009 5:18:42 PM
Here’s the rub: What if you weren’t one of those people? What if you voted Democrat and didn’t agree with Bush but still were able to say that some of the things dished out to Bush weren’t fair. If I stuck up for Bush when extremists went after him , I’m sure as heck going to stick up for Obama as I voted for him and agree with him 100% more. I’m sure you can understand that. And if I called out extremists in the Democrat party, I’m sure as heck going to call out ones in the Republican party cuz I think there’s more of them lately. Lots. more. The dishing it out thing doesn’t work for me. I get your point, but I wasn’t one of those people.

I, personally, have no animosity towards President Obama. I rather like him as a person. He is very charming and a very likeable person. Likewise I thought the same of President Clinton. But I totally disagree with their ideology.
Nor do I believe that President Obama is being totally truthful regarding his agenda. I find it very difficult to believe that an individual who was mentored during his teenage years–when he was extremely impressionable–by a devout Communist (Frank Marshall Davis, who Obama also considered a father-figure); and studied under the principles of Saul Alinsky (a devout Marxist); and worshipped for 20 years under the leadership of the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr. (a Black Liberation Theologist) can just turn off their teachings.

Oh and also the media itself contributes to the extremists being “the” definition. Its alot of ways not their fault because what gets read more is the types of actions and statements made by the extremists. It further fans the flames, and then anything that is from the non-extremists gets hijacked by the extremists when it gets published.

…Sen. John Cornyn who, BTW, was all OVER warrantless wiretaps, came out with the ridiculous assertion that the president is trying to create a “program” to “monitor American citizens’ speech” and catalog “names, email, addresses, IP addresses.”
Puh-lease….
Posted by: Alyson | Aug 7, 2009 4:15:56 AM
——————
Answer me this Alyson. You send me an email. I forward it to the government. What private information does the government now have on you?
Do they have your email address? Yes.
Do they have my email address? Yes.
Do they have your IP address? Probably
Do they have my IP address? Yes.
Do they have your name? In many cases, Yes, both first and last – and you don’t even know it, because *I* turned you in.
Do they have my name? In many cases, yes, both first and last.
Can they find out exactly who you are and where you live from your email address? Yes.
Ditto from mine? Yes.
Is your written word considered to be free speech? Yes.
Is a system set up by a government office for an entire nation to be able to forward information to the government for evaluation and action of whatever nature, a government program by its very definition? Yes.
How exactly is Cornyn’s assertion in any way incorrect let alone ridiculous?
Did you catch Gibb’s little ‘joke’ today? He stated that they might keep your email address since you’d been wrong before they assumed you might be again or something to that effect.

How can you possibly justify questioning my credibility on that? Its the White Houses credibility that you ought to be questioning.
Posted by: And Atlas Shrugs Yet Again | Aug 7, 2009 1:10:50 PM
***
You said the right wing blogs didn’t purposely misinterpret it. Well, if you take what the WH blog said and then go to certain right wing blogs, it’s purposely misinterpreted. I’m not saying everyone is purposely misinterpreting it, but there is a sleight of hand at work. It’s very good– but it’s still sleight of hand.
On this particular subject, I think you have trouble seeing the sleight of hand. So on this, I’m wary of your take. And there would be things, I’m sure you’d be wary of my take on and I’d admit that was rightly so– maybe this is one of them for you, but I’m not wrong, and you stated I was as if it were a fact. I don’t appreciate that, and I will push back.
Posted by: Alyson | Aug 7, 2009 1:20:15 P
—————————
Alyson, please refer back to your own post. BEFORE the ‘right wing blog’ issue was even mentioned, you stated: “Thi isn’t a witch hunt. In fact, this whole notion that the White House would be “collecting names” is about as valid as the idea that the president is not a natural-born citizen”
I’m saying that as per the White House statement, you are simply incorrect. The White House is required to keep records of all incoming correspondence. The Privacy Act makes it illegal for them to collect exactly this sort of information on citizens. They’re stuck either direction. This was a grossly ill thought out program on their part.
You went on to say: “Right-wing blogs purposely misinterpreted the intent, stating “the White House wants you to report … anybody publicly opposing” health care reform. Anybody, rather than the misinformation. Nice way to twist the truth, no?”
The problem here is that the White House did NOT ask people to strip out and only send the misinformation. They asked you to forward emails – which contains personal information and free speech. Plus, what is “fishy” is totally up to one’s interpretation. You want to bet that many people will take anything that is opposing Obama or opposing health care as :fishy” if they are supporters of either Obama or the bill? So, you can claim they ‘twisted’ it, but the fact is that per the White House itself, they haven’t, unless you use the most narrow definition AND assume the best of every person in the entire nation. Unlikely.
Then you went on to rip on Cornyn – when factually he’s correct also.
Finally you tie it all together by labelling everyone who opposes Obama/the WH blog/HC or some fraction of those as simply ‘fearful’ and anyone who points out the actual wording of the WH blog as fear mongers.
So… I don’t care what the right wing blogs have said or done and that wasn’t even the main point I was making. I was taking issue with your claim that the WH was clearly only collecting lies and misinformation and that clearly anyone who said otherwise was just a fear monger when the hard facts of the matter are there in black and white on the government website and directly contradicts you.

Also just name alone doesn’t pinpoint a particular individual. There are some people with highly unique names, but often times there are multiple people with the same first and last name.
This is how that one what was it under 12 year old boy was marked as being a terrorist and placed on the do not fly list. He had the same name as an adult who was the one placed onto the list.
The name can come from the e-mail if they included it in the text of the e-mail or the actual e-mail address is the persons name. Otherwise the only way to obtain that is through the actual account data held by the service provider who is not going to be jumping up and down to just hand that information out. Similar with the IP itself.
There are ways to back track it but your talking about significant effort to track a single e-mail back to it source just off of the e-mail itself with out the account information.

Atlas, I think perhaps you ought to take your own advice, and go back to the posts. It’s really not my responsibility to explain the problem with this conversation to you–I objected to one thing you called me out on and you didn’t respond to it and went off on something entirely missing the point– I’m tired of it. I’m just not in the mood. Have a great weekend.

Alyson writes: Atlas, just asking, do you get the sleight of hand in your own post?
—————
Atlas replies: Alyson, there is no ‘sleight of hand’ what so ever, you are really missing the point and misinterpreting, it appears. More on this below, in answering your questions.
—————–
Alyson: You say:
Do they have your email address? Yes.
Do they have your IP address? Yes.
Do they have your name? In many cases
Okay– let me ask you a question. Are they collecting and cataloging those and monitoring by name ????Are they looking up the names associated with IP addresses?
—————–
Alyson, the WH is required by law to keep all incoming correspondence.
Here is where you are missing it. You don’t know the answers to those questions and neither do I. They CAN if they want to. Who would know? Can you tell me 100% for sure that no one will do these things with the incoming information? No, you can’t.
That is the entire point, and that is why the Privacy Act was passed, to STOP them from ever collecting this type of information, so then someone can’t be tempted to start cataloging, correlating, looking up, or whatever – so they can’t misuse it. Its not a “let them have the info and trust they’ll behave” its a matter of “if they don’t collect it to begin with, we don’t have to worry” There’s no justifiable reason for them to collect it.
They’re perfectly capable of getting accurate information out as it is. Lord knows Obama has used the Bully Pulpit to the hilt. Why do you think there was such a flak over Bush and the wiretapping for terrorists issue?? That was bad enough, this is far far worse.
Note also minor point, that most of the time, they’re not having to look anything up, its right there in the email.
—————-
Alyson: Please. You say, to paraphrase, “oh nooooo! they can look it up”
————–
Atlas: No, actually I said that most of that information is incorporated in the incoming email right off the bat. Then, yes, if they wanted to go further they are easily able to. You have some way to ensure that they can’t?
————–
Alyson: but they’ve said very specifically that they’re interested in correcting the information out there, not stopping it, not anything remotely as frightening or ridiculous as its being played up.
———–0—
Atlas: Again, here you are arguing that we ought to simply trust their word. Let them have the information, and just believe what they say. How’d that work with Clinton? “I did NOT have s*x with THAT woman!” How’d that work with Hilary and the 1000 FBI files? How’d that work with Nixon? Not sure on Bush, because that at least had the appropriate court oversight, and we don’t know of any actual abuse that occurred, but that one isn’t pretty either. There are a million far less well known examples.
You REALLY want to say we ought to just trust their word? You really have some way to ensure that no abuse can possibly occur?
———–
Alyson: Cornryn accused the WH of putting together an enemies list. Now, I have no problem with him writing a letter and asking questions, fine. His request makes some sense. But why not wait for answers before feeding red meat to the hungry pack without evidence on the accusations of intent.
————-
Atlas: Ok, I can take you to task for ridiculing him over the gist and content of his letter, because he’s actually accurate – but I can’t fault you for objecting to the ‘enemies list.’ I don’t know if perhaps he used it only as an example of why he was concerned, or if it was just fuel on the fire, but I can understand your objection to that one part. Your objection to and ridicule of his ENTIRE letter and the basis for it, that I still have a problem with.
——————
…I take offense at you telling me I’m wrong when I looked up quite a few blogs and followed the snowball, …and I take offense at people telling me I don’t get it. I. get. it. I didn’t get all personal and single you out and tell you how wrong you were specifically until you singled me out.
Posted by: Alyson | Aug 7, 2009 2:52:57 PM
———–
Atlas: I can understand that – and Alyson, it seems to me that we wound up to some extent coming at this from very different perspectives. I tend to really discount blogs both left and right. They both get extreme although I have to say I’ve generally seen far more vitriol and outright obscenity on the left blogs although it certainly occurs on both. My point from the beginning, and what I took issue with, was your dismissal of the entire issue as false and ridiculous and by extension everyone who thought it a valid issue – and you went there before you ever brought up the blogs. Then, again outside the blogs, you attacked Cornyn. I went to the source, and took issue with your claims based quite specifically on what the White House itself said.

Both sides need to start putting the breaks on this and start standing up and speaking out against this bad behavior because daily now its getting worse. I’m actually now counting the days till some one gets seriously injured or even killed at one of these.
Posted by: Good/Bad | Aug 7, 2009 6:08:24 PM
———————–
Excellent post Good/Bad. I’m particularly disturbed to see fuel added to the fire by the White House and Obama himself. This has NOTHING to do with what party he is, what race, or any of those stereotypical claims. It has everything to do with the fact that the occupant of the oval office is supposed to represent us all equally. Instead, today, Obama has come out and said that he doesn’t want to hear from those who created the problems the last 8 years (oh, does that mean the Democrats in charge of house and senate last 2 years, including Obama himself??) That he wants them to sit down and shut up!! He’s also said ‘if we get hit, we’ll hit back twice as hard.’ Is this the post-partisan uniter??
I mean, PLEASE. This is the WHITE HOUSE for heaven’s sake. This is supposed to be where we have the most thoughtful, best response to problems, classy leadership for the entire nation. I’m just having a real problem with this sort of behavior coming out of the White House, no matter who the current occupant happens to be.

Typically whether they would have your name or not is totally dependent on whether you use it in your email addy. Many people do.
Your IP address, however, is automatically embedded in the email itself. Its just not typically displayed. If you forward an email, the ‘headers’ which include all of that data, including IP address, is included in the forwarded email.
google: How To Find the Sender’s Original IP Address Using Email Message Headers
So your IP addy and anyone’s forwarded email(s) are right there already in the email you sent to the gov.
The main time that you wouldn’t have a useful IP addy in an email, is if you happen to have an internet service provider that uses random IP addresses, such as AOL. With those, every time you sign on, you’re assigned a new IP addy. In those cases, if they wanted your IP addy, they would have to request or subpoena the information. If they were going to do that tho, heck, they’d just get your full information not just the IP. By the way, providers have cooperated with gov. requests for this sort of info without subpoena before, so going to that extent isn’t even always necessary.

Oh ya I know I wasn’t saying that the IP isn’t there. Was just pointing to the fact that the IP itself while it might give some information isn’t giving them vast amounts of information.
Also I wouldn’t count the IP as being private information seeing as its from the service provider, and any place you go or anything you do on the internet is tracking your IP address. Most places such as online shops actually store specific IP addresses to prevent fraud.
While they do cooperate at times in this case I would find it a stretch that a service provider would open themselves up to that much risk without a subpeona. Consider what would happen to their business in this case if they did do that. Easy death knell for business if freely released in this situation.

…There are ways to back track it but your talking about significant effort to track a single e-mail back to it source just off of the e-mail itself with out the account information.
Posted by: Good/Bad | Aug 7, 2009 7:20:55 PM
———————-
You are talking about the most powerful government in the world. With the most powerful intelligence agency. How much effort it MAY or may not take really isn’t the issue at all. The whole point is that they have no business getting the information to begin with.
Let me give you a little personal example from many years ago. When I was a kid, my father took my brother and I to an air show at an air force base. I’m talking a massive air show, tens of thousands of people. HUGE fans, HUGE into planes, and my father spent much of his career helping design various aspects of them.
There was one relatively new and very secret jet there, that was visible but well back from the crowds and roped off to keep everyone out with some security posted. My brother and I were teens. I don’t know if it was Dad or my brother, could easily have been either, but one of them started chatting with one of the military guards, and asking them some basic questions about the plane. Knowing them both, I’m sure they likely made some educated guesses to see what response they might get about things like top speed, top altitude, range, etc.
Anyhow, great airshow, we spent all day there, mixing throughout thousands of people, eventually back to the massive parking lot (one of MANY) and home.
Several days later a sedan pulled up to the house and a fellow got out and asked if this was Mr. XYZ’s home, and was he home. I said, sure, and yes.
It was the FBI. They were checking up, because apparently a few of the guesses were a little too good, and just that there was the interest in the technical details. Now, I’m dating myself, but this was WAY before security camera’s like today.
So… how did they figure out who we were? They HAD to have gotten our license plate and info from that. Now, that’s ok, I don’t have a problem with it.
I’m just saying, there is a real reason to take some of these things seriously and not just take the governments word that they mean well and will behave. Its certainly not justification to think “its too much trouble for them to track it down” either.
Your IP address gives information about exactly WHERE you are located, regionally. I’m not sure just how closely it can actually get to an exact address. Anyhow, with that along with your name if you use it as your email addy, even if you just use initials or initials and last name, then right there chances are they know exactly who you are and where you live without having to get any information from your service provider. Doesn’t matter if its a common name, they’ve got your general location and chances are pretty slim that someone else with the same name is that close to you.
Again, all of this isn’t “oh nooooo they’re going to get me!!!!” Its all, “if there happens to be a bad apple in the bunch, and we all know that a few DO exist, then with this information its EASY for them to do a lot of damage to you.” Or just collect your info to put you on their donation lists. ;0)
You know, do you invite the guy you’ve never met who knocks on your door and says he’s nice into your house right in off the street, just because he tells you he’s got good intentions?

At the same time your right it would have been infinitely better if they had worded it differently.
Instead of saying forward the e-mails to us, it would have been better to say. Send us an e-mail with the information you have heard that does not seem accurate.
Posted by: Good/Bad | Aug 7, 2009 7:24:49 PM
——————–
Yes, that would be better. It would still be problematic, tho, because there would be a lot of people who would still just forward emails — and I’d bet the majority of them have NO idea that each email automatically includes ‘envelope’ data like IP address and so on.
Far far better for the White House to collect its own data, and NOT ask individuals to send in ‘fishy’ information that could wind up being all sorts of various things.

Uh atlas if he was doing that as freely as people are saying, the Senate bill would be dead at this point. …
Will he do it for all things, no but he also hasn’t shut out ideas that are different from his. Honestly the House of Representative Democrats are doing that, he however as a figurehead is taking the blame for their bad behavior.
Posted by: Good/Bad | Aug 7, 2009 8:37:06 PM
——————
Had you heard that in the last few days he has said that they might have to resort to reconciliation in the Senate if they can’t get the Republicans to agree?
The statements that I’d attributed to him, were from him. The House situation doesn’t help, but for that issue I primarily blame him for delegating the writing to them to begin with rather than providing some sort of reasonably fleshed out plan himself. I don’t blame him directly for shutting the Repubs out, although I DO think that he could do a lot more to rein Pelosi in and help fix the situation, and he’s shown zero interest in doing that. As to the Senate, I don’t see that he has helped with that situation? On the contrary, he’s now threatening the Repubs. with the nuclear option.
Sooooooo…. I just don’t see where he has behaved in a bipartisan fashion much of anywhere. Or where he has actually been open to really incorporating ideas that come from outside his own ideology/party, or anything along those lines. Do you? On the other hand, I see a lot of examples where he’s blocked or shut down anyone who actually tries to offer up suggestions or other ideas.

Wishing you, and all of the other commentors (yes, including the Obama faithful) a fantastic weekend!
Posted by: James Danley | Aug 7, 2009 10:15:43 PM
———————-
Thanks so much James. I always enjoy your posts too. Wishing you a great weekend also!

p.s., and of course you are right re the voting numbers — but they’ll blame it on the Republicans anyhow, I mean, look, they already are even in the mere threat!

Atlas, you wrote:
Alyson, I DID go back to the posts! I wrote my replies directly off of them, and I even copied parts of your posts in order from your post. I addressed exactly what you were talking about, you being upset with feeling that the blogs twisted things, but I also pointed out that my posts had addressed far more than just that… and that where I HAD addressed the blog issue, I’d done so directly from your own post and what you said about them. I don’t see how I could possibly address your post and issues more.
Posted by: And Atlas Shrugs Yet Again | Aug 7, 2009 8:56:08 PM
***
Okay note the time I posted the comment you were responding to:
Posted by: Alyson | Aug 7, 2009 7:28:35 PM
And note the time you left your long post that you reference to me:
Aug 7, 2009 7:33:50 PM
You posted your post AFTER I left my post, and went out to dinner. (shrugs shoulders).
Anyway, I did concede to a couple other people who argued the case against tagging the misinformation via forwarded emails and such purely from the Right to Privacy and Freedom of Speech standpoints that I agreed with them– I tend to like the simple beauty of a good argument without embellishment, at least when it’s an argument designed to help me see the other side. It’s VERY hard for me to get past loaded words and misrepresentation of intent. I have a conservative right wing in my own family that drives me bonkers. So, full disclosure, I’m biased, and partisan. Not extreme, but I think the left makes more sense than the right. Obviously– otherwise why would I be a progressive.
Yes, before anyone points this out, I’ll admit I’ve used some loaded words myself. But in my view, they described what happened. I am who I am and see things the way I see them. I can’t stand Cornryn. I don’t trust him, and while I don’t want to demonize him, you know, arguments on his behalf are heard by me in the same spirit an argument by me on behalf of Pelosi would be heard by those who can’t stand her. And don’t even get me started on Boehner or Cantor. We all likely have politicians we don’t trust.
Anyway, that’s that. Again, have a good weekend.

Oops! Sorry, its been a long day. “and is very deal with” Should have been “and is very easy to deal with”

James I could not agree with your additions more! Maybe we need some tweeks to laws to help address the ‘too big to fail’ issue (but what’s up with forcing them to merge so they’re even bigger, how does THAT make any sense?!!)… and something to give shareholders more say so there is some control over inbred boards and executives and compensation levels – but it needs to be internal. Like health care, for the most part we need to get government OUT of things, not insert them further.
What I wouldn’t give to see a real leader emerge who is classy, mature, shows some judgment and restraint, and who really admires and believes in America, her people, and the principals we were founded on. Someone who wants not only individuals to succeed but also businesses because when businesses succeed that means individuals do also and that means America does! Ultimately, the more America succeeds, the more we are able to help the rest of the world also – in other words, we ALL win that way.

Lina how is that different from the republicans doing exactly the same thing to the people who want to hear the congressmen. The people who want to be able to ask questions, the people who want order.
Having the RNC call all of those people nothing more then hired union thugs is just as dismissive, marginalizing, and threatening those individuals right to express themselves. These people have been called mobs because of their behavior.
Again let me ask if your having an arguement with your husband, wife, etc. do you scream and shout at them every time they try to speak to you, try to answer one of your questions. Do you go about hanging effigies of them, or leaving a death threat against them. Their behavior has led to them being labeled a mob.
Also at the same time while not all are outsiders meant only to cause dissent the reality is that those types of people are there. Fox news has actually come across people that they have found told them they had no connection to the RNC and never had a connection to the RNC, but where leading republican campaigns against some of these congressmen and were not from the local area. While not all people are “bused” in the fact is that there are those people that in places that are and they are overshadowing those people who have legitimate concerns.
The extremists define the image now a days unfortunately. Broad generalizations with very little realization of the complexity in all situations is the name of the game.

“These people have been called mobs because of their behavior.”
These ‘mobs’ dare to speak truth to power. They dare to cling bitterly to traditions of American freedom. They dare to engage in democratic action. that is what upsets the Obama kool-aid drinkers so. How DARE people question authority, now that all power is in the hands of the socialist dopes Pelosi, Reid and Obama?

Congressman Fleming’s public petititon for us to sign as approval of ‘House resolution 615′ asking that Congress agree to enrol in the public option:
http://www.fleming.house.gov/index.html
How Congress feels about being included in the public option of healthcare:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/10/newt-gingrich/most-democrats-are-opposed-giving-their-health-car/