‘Facts Are Stubborn Things,’ Says White House, Taking On ‘Disinformation’

I wonder if Obama has read the House bill yet? Did someone magic-marker out the phrases/rules he now denies?

can someone please explain why i should trust the govt with my healthcare?? why they shouldn’t earn that trust – by truly reforming medicare/caid… social security… TORT REFORM?? if they would show me they could do this… i would be more apt to listen… but until then no go from here!

What the administration has very seriously under-estimated here is the fundamental common sense of the public, especially the seniors.
To put in simply, things do not add up.
These people have seen political promises comes and go and not buying into it at this time. They are not willing to risk what they currently have for rosey promises with nothing behind them but “bubble gum & bailing wire” as my dad says. My dad who by the way is a lifetime Dem & voted for Obama.
It is indeed the seniors who have the most to lose in this one, and they are not just going to back off with a smile and nice speech.
They dont really care who tries to blame or demonize who in the game of talking points, they want to SEE in clear plain language what any (Democrat or Republican) plan means for them and their current situations.
Someone needs to tell Douglass that the people do not care about Obama’s long drawnout, over-blown speeches anymore. They simply do not believe what he is saying and are not willing to risk the care they do have on “promises”.

Even with the facts and video and recorded history this administration continues to flat out lie to us. Propaganda only works when information is controlled, and thankfully the internet is preventing that. They already have TV, and print media, and soon seek radio. The internet and 70% of Americans with access will prevent this attempt to decieve us and the Constitution.

They dont really care who tries to blame or demonize who in the game of talking points, they want to SEE in clear plain language what any (Democrat or Republican) plan means for them and their current situations.
****************************************
That is the crux of the problem. There is no message because there is no plan. The GOP can say no to it every day, because no one knows what they are saying no to.
There is no debate, there is nothing to debate.
Frankly I think the Dems blew it.

I have read the bill. You should, too…you would be amazed at how people have been lying about what’s in it! It does not give us a health care system like Canada’s. Care will not be rationed any more than it is with any other insurance program. Illegal immigrants won’t be given government subsidies. People will not “have mandatory meetings in which you will be told how to end your life sooner”. (that lie is just despicable – the section it refers to guarantees coverage if you opt to go discuss your living will with your physician – completely not mandatory, and you are given all your options that you may choose to include or exclude from your living will – you are not “told how to end your life”.) Nearly everything you have heard about the plan up until you read this article was complete baloney! I have no idea how the liars thought they were going to get away with it, when all you have to do is go look at the bill to see the truth. Did they really think we were all too lazy to go look for ourselves and find out the truth?

Misinformation is what the democrats are guilty of. The facts in general are what are stacked against them when it comes to the healthcare plan and cash for clunkers. They are both endless money-pits in the making with no visible redeemable value from the status quo. Disinformation is that how the democrats feel when people bring up the truth about their misinforming the public they feel ‘dissed’ or disrespected? Thats because they are wrong wrong wrong and tax and spend democrats!

Why no attempt to add “context” for the 2003 clip where Obama says he wants a single-payer system? Couldn’t they come up with a convincing lie? Their standards aren’t very high, the explanation for “I don’t think we’re going to be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately” is terrible.

My boss today described to me yesterday that under Portugals ‘socialized healthcare’ system that his father went to have scans to have his heart checked for problems 4 months ago and he still has not got the results!!! America get ready for this kind of service from your healthcare providers if this insane plan passes. Then for sure you will cry when your loved one passes away from not knowing test results they should have been able to get in days instead of months under our current system!

These will be known as the ‘good old days’ our healthcare system is about to go the way of so many other good things in this country that are now gone and some of you people are actually pushing to let it happen! You know what the system is like now and have no idea what it will be like afterward. If its anything like Europe you will be in for a lot of pain and suffering!

mallory, you have NOT read the bill, and it is disingeneous of you to claim that you have. You may have glanced at Dengell’s House Resolution, but, please, don’t try to insult our intelligence by claiming 1) that you read the bill in its entirety and/or 2) that you would even understand what the bill is proposing. Even Dengell has admitted that he has not read the bill that he himself is sponsoring, and he said that there is no “reason” to read the bill since he would need a roomful of lawyers to interpret what it is saying….

Basically the internet has given a disproportionate voice to every hate-filled nutjob out there who wants to influence public perception and will with their own “special” version of reality. For some, these are delusions that actually live in their own heads, for others, they know fully that the things they are saying are lies and don’t care because they justify it as a means to a political end of their liking. Manipulation of the stupid and disaffected via unfounded propaganda has reached a new level, largely fueled by the political desperation of the right and encouraged and facilitated by their longtime corporate political benefactors, including many int he news media who give credence to their idiotic claims. And yes, racism is one of the most prevalent forms of hate they count on to get people to buy into their messages. I know that I will come under fire from some on this blog for saying so, but it is true and most of us do recognize its power, especially those exploiting it to divide the American people.

The costs are beyond astronomical! I recently saw the billing for my son’s knee replacement surgery, and it was over $40,000.
——————————-
REAL Reform starts right there – examine that bill.
All the grandiose plans and ideas we see being bantered about are not even touching the real issue. Where in that 40K bill is the cost that is growing so fast. Where in that bill can you pull out 5K, 10K, 15K ..etc?
IF we cant determine this, then costs will continue to increase, the onlt difference will be the govt will spread the butter over everyone. How…who knows?
If we do not want to look at the problem here on the ground level, why would anyone buy into the fact that these proposals in Congress are going to change that 40K bill at all?
We keep hearing how they going to move money around & get “savings” from a national database. Nice rhetoric, but the details of implementation tend to get lost in the conversation, don’t they? Eventually, in time, there will be some level of savings from having a single national database. Of course there will be opposition from those who do not want their entire medical background on a database system accessible to every single ER doctor & paramedic in the country. The larger problem is the time & cost it will take to create this database (gathering records [both the old paper & film plus various forms of electronic data] for every individual in the country from a variety of healthcare providers) and then the cost associated with upgrading every hospital, doctors office, physical therapy facility, clinic…etc in the country to be able to access it with some as yet unknown common end user software package. Simple Fact – This is years and billions of dollars away.
So how do you get those costs of the 40K bill down?
Do we simply impose a cost Vs. services structure in place now? Set a cost for 10 minutes of time in an ER? Set an across the board cost for a single x-ray? Are we going to tell the medical community that any time they give a patient a cortisone shot, they must charge $20?
If we do not put some effort into looking at the problem in this way, I do not see how one can think the people are just going to blindly buy into political rhetoric yet again. This is not taxes or a pork barrel project buried in some bill. People, especially seniors, are not convinced that this time, the end effect of this could be very damaging to them on a personal level.

“yes, racism is one of the most prevalent forms of hate they count on to get people to buy into their messages.”
Ok so agree with the President and racism goes away. Gotcha.

Have to agree with Mike_C,
No where in here is it addressing the cost structure. It’s subsidizing the costs to patients. Why are we not looking at making it cheaper for health care providers to operate? Reforming liability insurance? Re-examining the loss of competition that HMO/PPO’s do? Investing more in the R&D process as those costs are passed down to us.
This plan doesn’t make health care more affordable, it just makes it subsidized by tax payer money. If its too expensive, then use market forces to get the costs down.

Your Dear Leader will tell you Today’s Truth, which is that he didn’t say what he said. That video is a thoughcrime. Drudge is doubleplusungood for posting it.

Here is Obama’s problem…very simply summed up in his own words….
“I think that the only thing that may have been proposed in some of the bills — and I actually think this is a good thing — is that it makes it easier for people to fill out a living will”
“I think the idea there is to simply make sure that a living will process is easier for people — it doesn’t require you to hire a lawyer or to take up a lot of time.”
This is the president of the country, talking about & selling his ideas on healthcare.
I “THINK”, not I know, or I will make sure, or any other terminology that demonstrates he is control of this. Just that he “THINKS” its this or that.
ALL the spin and spokespeople in the world is not going to change the simple perception that he DOES NOT KNOW.
He had two of his “brilliant economic boys” in front of microphones this weekend contradicting the #1 campaign theme from the election. Then after that blew up in everyone’s face, good old Gibby comes out with some dopey and lame excuse about theoretical discussions. I saw both of those interviews, there was NOTHING theoretical about either one of them.
So again, what is it the President actually KNOWS and what is it that the American people are supposed to believe when he says something?
A common practice of this administration is to have to come out after someone else in the administration opens their mouth and play the “He/she meant” game.
Obama has spent enough time around Biden, that its going to wear off on him.

Obama’s use of the term “Trojan Horse” in describing what he says the his direction for health care is NOT, took me aback. This was the first time I had heard it refered to as such.
It may have been a Freudian slip because the more I look into the health care overhaul legislation, the more it looks EXACTLY like a Trojan Horse to bring about single payer “government” health care.

The only sure way to pass a health care bill is simple:
Have it recapped in a reader friendly format, and let the American public see it for what it really is.
Require that ALL people and offices are in the common plan. No special plans for the law makers. No exceptions.

Henrietta Hughes: Your claim that the government will be changing all the time. Your private insurance companies are already doing EVERYTHING and worse to you right now. When was the last time many of you have tried to make claims with you for-profit insurance companies. Each company has a different plan and it can change on a dime and be denied for any reason that that can dream up. Don’t you dare lose it because if you have pre-conditions than no one else will pick you up. Forget doctor choice as they make sure that you are allowed only a few and forget seeing doctors on a timely basis as it might be months, and I mean months, before you can see a doctor. Meanwhile your suffering goes on with relief or your cancer buries itself further into every organ of your body. For profits do not care about you, ONLY THE BOTTOM LINE> PROFITS! Do not be fooled by the private for profit based insurance companies. There are well over 1000 different companies out there with everyone of them with different plans that every doctor has to spend countless unproductive time on papers and regulations. You will lose, EVERY TIME with these GREEDY companies. The government plan, turns out, is a MUCH BETTER OPTION!

Facts are stubborn things, indeed. Not once did former ABC news reporter Linda Douglas refute the FACT that in 2003 Obama stated to an AFL-CIO Conference that he would like to see “a single payer health care plan”. He then says how “we may not get there immediately, we have to take back the White House, the Senate and the House.” Done, done and done.
Don’t be fooled, the end of health care and health insurance as we know it is the stated goal of Obama. The funny thing is the video can be accessed from the DrudgeReport page that Ms. Douglas refers to. It’s on breitbart.tv. Stubborn, eh?

“Ok, guys who seem to know more about healthcare than this administration, would you kindly explicitly give your bright ideas on how we are going to solve this healthcare problem and how to provide for those who dont’t have insurance.”
There is no “problem” but there are no free lunches either. If there was such a problem, why didn’t Barack Obama sponsor leglislation when he was a Senator? Now, suddenly, “we” have a problem. Other people not having health insurance (or car insurance or home insurance, etc…) isn’t MY problem. If I can’t pay the rent, is that your problem? You can make it your problem if you want. You have the freedom to do so. People had families that used to take care of each other in this nation. Now, you want the gov’t to do it. How well did that work out for home loans? If anything, the gov’t (state and federal) should reduce regulation on existing healthcare. Insurance used to be for catastrophic things, not the sniffles and hangnails. People need to live within their means and stop eating garbage and smoking. They want new TVs, cell phones, cable and cars, but don’t want to pay for healthcare.
I found 19 plans that start at $145 a month. It seems people want something for nothing and for the gov’t to take care of them.

“Ok, guys who seem to know more about healthcare than this administration, would you kindly explicitly give your bright ideas on how we are going to solve this healthcare problem and how to provide for those who dont’t have insurance. Yes, you can complain but you should also have solutions…” >>>Okay…how about this as a starter: Present the American public with an open and transparent process by which to overhaul health care. Take time and let it be seen and understood. Better yet, how about THIS: Leave the healthcare system alone. The majority of Americans are satisfied with their health care as it is and do not want to change. The mantra of 45 million americans without health care doesn’t make it and emergency. That number is greatly exaggerated because it counts the illegal aliens and counts those in America that choose to not have coverage. Of those that are left that are just too poor to buy insurance, then let’s buy it for them. That will be expensive, but will be way cheaper than this proposed bill. And then, as those poor folks recover economically, they can be taken off the government program and integrated into public programs…..

Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive!
Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17. Scottish author & novelist (1771 – 1832)

Once the gravy is spread around the new system will better serve all of us.
—————————————-
Yep,
just ask all those people in the UK with back pain. It works real good danita, until the gravy gets to costly and the govt agencies start deciding how much gravy can be spread out!
The example of what the NICE & NHS in the UK are doing right now is VERY relevant to how things MUST work in a system like that. We see the same thing in Germany & Canada.
Oh, by the way, see Pauly Krugman step in “it” ? A video from Sept. last year where good old Pauly thought he had an audience to prove his views, come to findout, he did not have the stacked deck he was expecting!
Krugman asks the room…” how many of you think you have a terrible health care system? The look on his face was priceless when virtually every Canadian in the room said they do!

Mike_C . . .
Sorry, the times of gross profits for the health insurance industry at the expense of normal Americans are coming to an end.
The health insurance industry has been skimming the cream off the young, the healthy and the employed – leaving the taxpayer to shoulder the burden for the old, the sick and the vulnerable.
No more.

This health care “reform” is only a first step in the process. And if liberals support a single payer system in the US, whos to say this President does not? And if he does (I believe he does), you think he’s going to do it in a way that slips it in slowly to avoid the public outcry? Of course, hence this “reform”. So its not what it is now that people object to, it is what it will become.
***
SOME liberals do support single payer (and there will be, by some accounts, a vote on the House floor for single payer so they’re being very transparent about what they like). And the President has said that he thinks aspects of Single Payer are appealing. Since he was my senator and I worked in managed care I’ve heard him speak on it. He’s neither opposed or dead set on moving toward single payer. He likely still thinks it’s a feasible direction to go in down the road, but he seemed pretty open-minded about a wide range of solutions back then ( and please, everybody, I don’t want to underestimate you but, just in case, I hate kool aid so let’s not go there– I’m trying to be honest about what I know– and I said he “seemed”)
There are also many Democrats not in favor of single payer. the Democrat party and Congress is a big tent right now– and there’s a good range of opinion. the party isn’t at all in lockstep. Full disclosure: I like many things about single payer, but I also have some reservations, and I really can’t see us ever going there.
So, anyway, yes, I agree, whatever reform is passed will only be the first step in getting it absolutely right– but that doesn’t mean passing legislation this fall is the first step to single payer, at least not necessarily, if you get what I’m saying. It’s the first step– and then single payer could be an option, or other things could be an option. I personally don’t think we’ll get the whole of reform right on our first effort out of the gate, no matter how long we take to deliberate and get it out of the gate. I think (hope) we’ll innovate and go in a new direction, and when all is said and done, we’ll have come up with something that ends up being the best in the world (not, like I said, out of the gate, but as we work together to make health care portable– which are my biggies– and affordable for small business owners– my other biggie cuz it directly affects me– and more equitable.) and I’m not saying that to be sneaky.
Just some thoughts to throw out there.

reaganfan: “the president and members of the Democrat Party are using the guise of “Healthcare Reform” for the ultimate goaql of forcing out private insurers”
I agree. That’s their modus operandi — when presented with a legitimate problem or crisis, take advantage of the American people in their time of need only to further their liberal political agenda. No matter the issue, their primary concern is and has always been politics rather than a real and lasting solution. We’ve seen it with the stimulus, and now he’s doing the same thing with healthcare.
Don’t take it from me, take it from Obama’s own Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel. As recent as last year, he let loose with the following quote. I suggest everyone be familiar with this quote as it will eventually be known to define the Obama presidency. Why? Because the “facts are stubborn things!”
Rahm Emanuel: “You never let a serious crisis go to waste. And what I mean by that it’s an opportunity to do things you think you could not do before.”

“virtually every Canadian in the room said they do!”
____________________________________
“Perhaps contrary to impressions in the media, most Canadians believe that on balance our health care system works well, and is far superior to the US model of health treatment. There is little appetite for a further privatization of Canada’s health care system.”
“Nationally, 70% of Canadians said the system was working very well.”
“By an overwhelming margin, Canadians prefer the Canadian health care system to the American one. Overall, 82% said they preferred the Canadian system, fully ten times the number who said the American system is superior”
“Considering both cost and patient care factors, a majority of Canadians (55%) think that the health system should be more public, and only 12% think that more of the health system should be private. One in four (27%) believe that the current system strikes the right balance between publicly funded and pay-per-use care.”
Source: Harris/Decima July 2009

President Obama promises that no one will lose their present health plan. The House bills do away with Health Savings Accounts which have successfully held down health care costs. Why won’t the press ask the Presdient about this contradiction?

“Nationally, 70% of Canadians said the system was working very well.”
Posted by: danita
Hmmmm. That is curious. I wonder why, if Canadians are so happy with their health care system, so many of them flood doctor’s offices in Arizona, Florida, New Mexico, California, etc. when “visiting” for the winter. In many rural Southwestern towns, the economy revolves around these Canadian “visitors” who spend the warm winter months in the US, enjoying the weather and the exceptional medical care. Visit a town in rural Arizona in February – doctor’s offices are packed and pharmacies are booming during those times, thanks to Canadians who aren’t so content with their country’s medical system.

danita: “. . . the employed and the healthy are covered by private for profit companies . . .”
According to Obama, private insurers will be around for at least the first 10-15 years. Then, private plans will “transition” out. In reality, I would argue that private plans will wither more quickly. If there’s one thing I can agree with Obama on, it’s that the private insurers will disappear leaving only the government option.
Obama: “But I don’t think we’re going to be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately. There’s going to be potentially some transition process. I can envision a decade out or 15 years out or 20 years out where we’ve got a much more portable system.”

Pesky ONe. ..
“Nationally, 70% of Canadians said the system was working very well.”
_______________________________________
The Harris/Decima poll is a major national poll in Canada that accurately reflects the view of Canadians.
Regardless of what you as an American might want to project as Canadian beliefs, they speak for themselves.
Put away your prejudices, this is a major national Canadian poll (July 2009) that speaks with much more accuracy than your biased single viewpoint.

p.s. the canadians could not even get a medical helicopter out for a celebrity with a major head injury near their second largest city

“Considering both cost and patient care factors, a majority of Canadians (55%) think that the health system should be more public, and only 12% think that more of the health system should be private. One in four (27%) believe that the current system strikes the right balance between publicly funded and pay-per-use care.”
________________________________________
By a vast majority, Canadians do not want more private health care – despite what American liars for the insurance and health industries put forward.

“By a vast majority, Canadians do not want more private health care – despite what American liars for the insurance and health industries put forward.”
That doesn’t change the fact that this poll is from a narrow perspective and thus meaningless in the debate. If the poll was only between those who have experienced both systems for at least a certain time period, it might mean something.
And sorry, while the Candian system seems to work for basic health care, it is abysmal for critical care. The Canadians that can afford it come down here for life threatening care. If it takes almost 5 months to get an MRI for a brain tumor, which, if malignant, can gestate in in the span of 6 months into certain death, how good is waiting 5 months for an MRI to see if it’s malignant?

“the Canadians could NOT even get a medical helicopter out for a celebrity with a major head injury near their second largest city”
___________________________________
That is hogwash. The helicopter was not called because the ‘celebrity’ claimed to ski hill officials she was ‘fine’ – when the extent of her injuries became apparent the helicopter came in excellent time – but it was too late.
What a pathetic example to bring forward.

“.MOST AMERICANS are happy with their current healthcare!”
____________________________________
Most Americans believe their health care system should needs to be improved.

Danita…we can defenitely agree on that. You dont throw the baby out with the bathwater…you attack the problems with healthcare, not completely overhaul it! We can all agree it has to be fixed, but giving more control over anything to the gov’t has never fixed anything. In fact, it makes things worse almost every single time!

“Most Americans believe their health care system should needs to be improved.”
That doesn’t equate to a government plan for most of us. What we want is costs brought down. This can be done by addressing the costs that health care providers have, something this bill doesn nothing for. Liability insurance is one of the largest costs to health care providers. Where is this bill addressing this? It’s not because its not intended to. This administration wants health care costs to be high so it influences people into a government option. Think about it, if they are so high that he can complain about it, they can get you to bite off on a government plan and eventual government control, and I just don’t trust these guys, or any politician for that matter, or government entity, to be in charge of my health.

“Across-the-board, about one-half of Americans rate value, access, and coordination of care fair or poor. Not surprisingly, those who are sicker or uninsured rate these factors even lower than those who are well or insured.”
Again Danita, this is meaningless. This only highlights a narrow perspective. How many of those polled have lived in a public single payer system? I would be the answer is none. The grass is always greener on the other side until you take your first bite and find out its poison ivy.

~ There’s another, factual view – by those of us Americans who’ve lived in Canada and used their system.
My wife and I did for years, and we’ve been incensed by the lies we’ve heard back here in the U.S. about Canada’s supposedly broken system.
It’s not broken – and what’s more, Canadians like and fiercely defend it.
Example: Our son was born at Montreal’s Royal Victoria Hospital. My wife got excellent care. The total bill for three days in a semi-private room? $21.
My friend Art Finley is a West Virginia native who lives in Vancouver.
“I’m 82, and in excellent health,” he told me this week. “It costs me all of $57 a month for health care, and it’s excellent. I’m so tired of all the lies and bullroar I hear about the system up here in the U.S. media.”
Finley, a well-known TV and radio host for years in San Francisco, adds,
“I now have 20/20 vision thanks to Canadian eye doctors. And I haven’t had to wait for my surgeries, either.”~
____________________________________
Ignore the scare mongering from the right.

Pesky One . …
“danita — That poll contradicts the fact that Canadians come to America in large numbers to seek medical care.”
_______________________________________
Those figures were from a respected national polling agency and published in July 2009; where is your source?

Canada’s health care system is broken but it’s interesting to find liberals here defending it and saying we should have Canada’s health care system here.
Supposedly, according to Obama, he’s not trying to institute Canada’s health care system here, but liberals here seem to think he is.
If the issue weren’t so serious and something that affects us all, this would be comical.

“That doesn’t change the fact that this poll is from a narrow perspective and thus meaningless in the debate. If the poll was only between those who have experienced both systems for at least a certain time period, it might mean something.”
Hmmmmm so why do you right wingers kkeep citing polls stating Americans are satisfied with their care if it does not matter?

A) the Canadians could NOT even get a helicopter for a celebrity with a head injury near their second largest city (that is a Fact) …
B) even if the Canadian system is so great that doesn’t mean it would work here in the US (apples and oranges)…
C)even though our system needs reform it needs good reform – not obamacare …
D) if the dems are in favor of improving things, why do they refuse all reforms that do not include public option …
E) the Canadian system is a single payer system, so why do supporters of single support a multipayer system unless there goal is to get rid of all payers except one

Canadians have been propagandized for years by their media and government about their system so the fact many may support it is of no value or consequence whatsoever. The reality is Canadians come to the U.S. for care in large numbers(I can verify this as I have personally witnessed this as I live in a border town and work in the industry). Canadians also are more likely to die from cancer than in the U.S.(stands to reason because when one has to wait for cancer treatments the cancer becomes more advanced and when the government won’t cover certain cancer drugs to “save costs” the cancer is more likely to spread). Canada also is not an innovator of new medicines or medical techniques(no single payer system is because there is no financial incentive encouraging innovation—there is nothing like the Mayo or Cleveland Clinic in Canada) Obama’s plan is a disaster. WE MUST NOT LET IT PASS!!!

“Hmmmmm so why do you right wingers kkeep citing polls stating Americans are satisfied with their care if it does not matter?”
Ah hello Ryan. I never cited a poll about American satisfaction with their health care. I have always had the stance that such polls are meaningless, especially if the participants in the polls are asked their thoughts on something they have never experienced. Its an opinion based on shaped perceptions. If your told your health care sux long enough, you’ll start to believe if even if its the best in the world.

you have to ask yourself if you would want this health care program if you have to pay increased taxes to get it for yourself and for someome else. BECAUSE EVERYONE IS GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR it….INCLUDING THE MIDDLE CLASS. if your fine with that then it will be.if you think you are not going to be taxed to do so then you diserve what you get.

Danita, My numbers were “grossly” off mark. (my apologies)
We hit $10 trillion in 2008 under Bush.
The Congressional budget Office says we’ll hit $17.2 trillion in 2019. Again I ask, “How will out childen pay this off?”
______________________________________
Alberto . . .
Please don’t start whimpering about the debt now.
The Bush Republican administration came in on promises of smaller government and basically doubled the national debt from $5 trillion to $10 trillion.

“I work in the medical field in the southwest, so I see first hand how Canadian discontent with their system benefits the US”
______________________________________
Enough said. You are going from your own anecdotal limited experience not any verified statistics or reliable cross-section study of people.
The Harris/Decima is a major polling company in Canada and the results are totally up to date.
You are so desperate to push your bias you have abandoned the scientific method – weak.

Not everything needs to be for profit. All the staunch supporters of for-profit health care, lets make national security and the armed forces for-profit. Good idea? Why not?

A) the Canadians could NOT even get a helicopter for a celebrity with a head injury near their second largest city (that is a Fact) …
B) even if the Canadian system is so great that doesn’t mean it would work here in the US (apples and oranges)…
C) even though our system needs reform, it needs good reform – not this risky unproven obamacare fiasco …
D) if the dems are in favor of improving things, why do they refuse all reforms that do not include public option ? …
E) the Canadian system is a single payer system, so why do supporters of single payer staunchly support a multipayer system unless their goal is to get rid of all payers except one ? …
F) the fact that Canadians might be so happy to be dependent on their government is a bad thing, not a good one …
G) when obama says you can keep your current plan, we wonder what he is reading because that guarantee is in NONE of the current plans pending in congress ….
H) if obamacare is so great, why will NO ONE in congress agree to automatically accept the public option for their own healthcare ? …
I) labor unions should be against this more than anyone because their good plans will be going away, too – eventually …
…
J) LAST BUT NOT LEAST – If the dems get their way, and we end up with a single payer system envisioned by their leaders, your doctor/PA/NP WILL be a government employee – ARE YOU REALLY OK WITH THAT? (can you say post office/dmv?)

I’ve written this here before, even written to congressmen, but I’ll put it up for all of you to chew on.
A.) We all agree that the costs are getting high? Then why don’t we use market economics to help bring them down? Instead of look at the patient (consumer) costs, which are at the bottom of the cost chain, lets look at providers and R&D.
First, there is one sector of health care that can and maybe should be a government responsibility, something we all use. Emergency care only. Like police or fire, we all rely on emergency care. I don’t mind a small tax increase for this service, just like I don’t mind taxes for police and fire. So what about this option? It will lower costs to insurance companies and ensure we all have emergency health service. It would however, stop after stabilization/recovery from the emergency. Follow on care would have to come from insurance.
B) Liability insurance is one of the highest costs from healthcare providers, from the producer of surgical tools to your doctor, all are forced into outrages liability insurance. This is to counter payments for law counsiling, court costs, and liability pay outs and settlements. Can tort reform lower these costs? Definately. Liability awards can reflect the rules already in place for our disabled veterans. 400k for loss of life, a pay scale maxing out at $2600 a month for 100% disability and medical coverage for said ailment. Class action lawsuits should be illegal as they only reward lawyers. We intrust the FDA, a government agency, to protect us from unsafe food and drugs. If they fail, it should be their responsibility. If the FDA is “fooled” by the drug company, then the FDA should fine said drug company, or suspend/remove their license to sell the drug/drugs.
C) HMO and PPO, a government initiative, has stifled competition among health care providers. Eliminate HMO/PPO and allow patients to choose and promote “shopping around” and competition.
D)R&D. Even under Clinton, it was shown that $65 per year investment in health care R&D had a return of over $5,000 of saved health care costs. Why are we not asking for more investment here? R&D benefits us all, from the new drugs and procedures developed, gives greater quality care and the R&D costs are not passed down to us, thus making good quality care cheaper.

“Not everything needs to be for profit. All the staunch supporters of for-profit health care, lets make national security and the armed forces for-profit. Good idea? Why not?”
Vast majority of it is. Every peice of material that a soldier wears, drives, or flies comes from a “for profit” entity. There are a few exceptions, very few.
And soldiers also are paid for profit. The military pays salary, not just my bills.

danita: “The Harris/Decima is a major polling company in Canada and the results are totally up to date.
You are so desperate to push your bias you have abandoned the scientific method – weak.”
Care to cite their “scientific” methodology? I found the poll on their website, but was unable to locate a methodology describing how the poll was conducted. Since you appear to be so concerned with the “scientific method,” please show us the sampling data that should accompany any legitimate poll.

Danita,
So, according to you, because I live in a town and work in a field that benefits from medical tourism, I must be biased therefore the Canadian medical tourism industry is a myth? What kind of logic is that?
Facts are, in fact, stubborn things, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If you find solace and validation in the polls, fine. But I’ll continue talking to the people and catering to those Canadian patients who visit our office every year.

“If your told your health care sux long enough, you’ll start to believe if even if its the best in the world.”
ROFLMAO!
Very true except you have something wrong.
We do not have the best system in the world. We’re not even in the top 10 even when accounting for things that right wingers don’t want included like access.
So I guess if you’re told the US has the best system in the world long enough you begin to believe it and become invested in that. Then when facts appear that challenge that notion you lash out.

“This is NOT TRUE. The CBO investigated this very subject, most recently in 2003. You know that there ARE state that have implement strict tort reform and limitations on medical malpractice? Hard caps on damages, pain and suffering, etc. And they DO NOT show huge savings.
Setting policy based on photogenic outliers from a few ambulance chasers is a bad idea. Actual analysis indicates that liability insurance is a negligible driver of health care costs (it crushes a few niches, but is lost in the trillions of dollars total noise).”
The high cost of malpractice premiums is beginning to lead providers to drop or reduce obstetrical services. Our study presented evidence that high malpractice premiums affect where new obstetricians are locating and it may affect the supply in the future,” says Scott B. Ransom, D.O., M.B.A., M.P.H., associate professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the U-M Medical School and of health management and policy at the U-M School of Public Health, and the senior author of the paper.
Sorry, a doctor on the radio said his malpractice insurance was $6,000 a month. A MONTH. How is that not contributing to the high cost of health care?

THE FACT IS OBAMA SUPPORTED AND PROBABLY SUPPORTS A SINGLE PAYER SYSTEM PLAN.
THE REPUBLICANS FEAR SINGLE PAYER IN THAT IT WILL IN FACT RATION CARE AND PUT THE GOVERNMENT IN CHARGE OF ALL HEALTH CARE DECISIONS VIA SETTING NORMAL & CUSTOMARY PROCEDURES AND TREATMENTS.
IF OBAMA AND COMPANY FEAR EXPOSURE OF THEIR SINGLE PAYER GOAL, THEN THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE SAID WHAT THEY HAVE SAID.
WHAT WAS SAID IN 2003 IS VERY RELEVENT TO 2009 DEBATE.

“Canadians also are more likely to die from cancer than in the U.S.(stands to reason because when one has to wait for cancer treatments the cancer becomes more advanced and when the government won’t cover certain cancer drugs to “save costs” the cancer is more likely to spread).”
The 5 year survival rates for cancer are overall slightly better in the US vs Canada.
The reasons have more to do with the United States emphasis on cancer screening for things like breast and prostate cancer than the FoxNews made up scenario you offer)

What I hear about much more often is Americans going to Mexico for dental and medical work. Because the U.S. is too expensive.
Posted by: danita
What’s wrong with that? I live on the border and go to Mexico for dental care all the time! Border clinics are usually staffed with US doctors, they’re clean and modern and you can pay in cash – no insurance needed. And they’re cheaper. I used to buy prescription drugs in Mexico too until Wal-Mart saved the day by forcing the pharmaceutical companies to lower their prices – now I get $4 prescription drugs.
For some people, it’s cheaper to pay cash for doctors, dentists, prescriptions, etc., rather then buy insurance. Gotta love the free market.
So don’t criticize the Mexican border clinics unless you have had some experience with them. Those of us who go to Mexico for medical care don’t appreciate it.

“Care to cite some of those facts to back up your claims? It is a matter of opinion as to where the US ranks in regards to healthcare, not a matter of fact. It is a subjective metric, not one that can be measured scientifically. To use one opinion to try to disprove another is foolish and hypocritical.”
#37 in the WHO ranking.
Remove some thing in that ranking that right wingers object to and the US is still around 15th.
I take the WHO’s opinion to be more valuable than the right wing parrots.

“So don’t criticize the Mexican border clinics unless you have had some experience with them.”
______________________________________
Didn’t criticize the Mexican border clinics. Criticized the American system that drives people to go there.

jhw539 – my point, that you and Danita seemed to take particular offense to, is that not all Canadians are happy with their system (I stated that in my first post). Some Canadians come to the US for medical care – and many small US towns benefit from this.
I’m still not sure why we are debating this point when neither you nor Danita has shown any proof that ALL Canadians love their system and would never come to the US for medical care.
Just as some Americans travel abroad for some medical care, Canadians do too — but when you criticize the Canadian system, some of you go on the attack.

jhw539
When the WPA in the 30′s finished it’s projects, we had something to show for it. You tell us what we are getting for the future? Better education? – No ; Safer transportation system? Not really. Now a helth care mess to hire tens of thousands to bloat the federal payrolls? You make a good point though, more and more of us will take up residence under the bridges, when inflation takes hold.

Why is it so hard to believe that they would take a break from water aerobics to visit a US doctor, get treatment without a waiting list and take advantage of medical advances not available to them in Canada.
***
I was going to say I hate to parse, but I continue to parse so never mind. I didn’t say it was so hard to believe, but nothing really is put forward to suggest that they’re coming for the medical care because it’s so much better. Maybe they are, and I’m sure they do like their docs when they visit, but the argument was squishy. But Danita is right, for certain procedures people do go to exotic places– and it’s not because the care is better, it’s cuz it’s cheaper and the locale is fun.

Regarding the famous Kessler-McClellan claims of 5-9% reduction in medical costs through tort reform:
“When CBO applied the methods used in the study of Medicare patients hospitalized for two types of heart disease to a broader set of ailments, it found no evidence that restrictions on tort liability reduce medical spending. Moreover, using a different set of data, CBO found no statistically significant difference in per capita health care spending between states with and without limits on malpractice torts.” -2004 CBO, headed at the time by Douglas Holtz-Eakin, ex-chief economist for President Bush’s Council of Economic Advisers.
The GAO also found such predictions of savings wildly exaggerated.

“..but nothing really is put forward to suggest that they’re coming for the medical care because it’s so much better.”
Not sure about the snowbirds, but I have seen critical care stories of Canadians coming across quite frequently. Those who need critical care inside a few months, such as brain tumor diagnosis needing an MRI, blocked artery, etc, if they have money are coming accross the border for care. It may be that snowbirds are taking advantage of the high end diagnostics while they are here. I’d believe that.

But Danita is right, for certain procedures people do go to exotic places– and it’s not because the care is better, it’s cuz it’s cheaper and the locale is fun.
**
Sorry, my last post was a little rough (as I was interrupted by my nephew showing me his DSI. I meant “And Danita is right– for certain procedures Americans go to exotic places– and it’s not because the care is better, it’s cuz it’s cheaper and the locale is fun.”

the fact that some come from canada and some go to mexico for health care proves what independents, libertarians, moderates and conservatives are saying; we DO need reform but NOT the public option … when obama says that the only option to his plan is the status quo, he is not being honest – nor is he honest when he claims his plan will control costs and that you can keep your current plan and that the plan is deficit neutral and will not lead to single payer care – these are all distortions made by obama

“the fact that some come from canada and some go to mexico for health care proves what independents, libertarians, moderates and conservatives are saying; we DO need reform but NOT the public option”
We already have several public options and they are quite popular.

ZK:”When the WPA in the 30′s finished it’s projects, we had something to show for it. ”
Wait – I thought the talking point was that the New Deal didn’t work? Anyhow, it was the massive spending of WWII building complex machines to literally blow up that really ended the Great Depression.
And after this half-billion stimulus we will have a great deal to show for it; a great deal of it is updating infrastructure (thousands of road projects, facility refurbishment, fully funded research, etc).

Pesky One:”What?? What backtracking? As I stated before, I work in a town and in a field that benefits from Canadian medical tourism. That’s it. I simply pointed out that not ALL Canadians are happy with their system.”
No. That is NOT what you pointed out. Your first post was in response to the statement that 70% of Canadians polled were happy with their healthcare – NOT that ALL Canadians. You clearly implied that you found that statistic unbelievable, proceeded to back it up with anecdotal stories, and finally appear to be denying ever having made it.
This is not a verbal debate; we actually have a record of what you said:
“Nationally, 70% of Canadians said the system was working very well.”
Posted by: danita
Hmmmm. That is curious. I wonder why, if Canadians are so happy with their health care system, so many of them flood doctor’s offices in Arizona, Florida, New Mexico, California, etc. when “visiting” for the winter”
Posted by:Pesky One Aug 4, 2009 2:19:41 PM

ryan c wote “we already have several public options and they are quite popular” – care to name them ? you mean medicare?? why don’t you admit that the newly proposed public option is primarily a massive, unaffordable expansion of medicare that will lead to tax hikes, access problems AND rationing

tojoley:”J) LAST BUT NOT LEAST – If the dems get their way, and we end up with a single payer system envisioned by their leaders, your doctor/PA/NP WILL be a government employee”
Ah, why not. Lets start from the bottom. In a single payer system (which is not even proposed, but is the extreme ‘slippery slope’ the right seems to fear), the government provide insurance. NO doctors/PA/NPs are government employees, they are as private as right now. Does your doctor work for Blue Shield or who ever your insurance company is?

Again, snide remark. Go to you tube and search “Canadians to americans”. Second video down. Watch and then discuss this strange anomoly from these Canadians.”
ROFLMAO!
By HealthCare America, an advocacy org funded by pharmaceutical and insurance companies with right wing operatives like Tucker Escew on their board.
FoxNews is likely to be less partisan and more accurate!
ROFLMAO!

how typical of a leftist to leave something out, jfw – I asked are you OK with your doctor being a government employee – it was a QUESTION with an important point – nice to see you don’t have a problem with that – but your doctor does and you should, too (when your doc works for the government, he/she will not be working for you and no, reimbursement from a third party is NOT the same) – but thanks for being honest – first honest leftist I’ve seen today

“By HealthCare America, an advocacy org funded by pharmaceutical and insurance companies with right wing operatives like Tucker Escew on their board.”
Yes they are fake comedians making fake comments. Good one. I would have never guessed this would be response.

“Yes they are fake comedians making fake comments. Good one. I would have never guessed this would be response.”
Oops, fake CANADIANS making fake comments. Was on the phone with the wife and she was distracting me.

jhw539 – And, in that first post, I was actually wondering why Canadians come to the US for care if they’re so happy with their own system, but rather than offering any type of explanation, Danita, who was later joined by you, chose to argue the very fact that these patients do come to the US.

“Facts are stubborn things WH says taking on Disinformation?”
Am I missing something here?
Fact: None of the “elite” on the Hill will buy into this NoCare while it is forced upon everyone.
Fact: Nothing is etched on anything yet we are being sold that it will cure herpes, brain cancer and Joe Bidens gaffes.
Fact: Not one of the congress has read the 1017 pages of legalese but tell us it must be done now!!
Fact: Congress couldn’t run a Post office, Medicaid/care, Social Security, GM, AIG and the list is growing.
Do we really want the elitist getting the best care anywhere while we go to Voodoo back alley docs for leeching and bad blood letting from barbers?
Here is a fact: The American people have had it with the DO NOTHINGS in D.C. and there will be TERM LIMITS imposed next year!
Mark my words!!!!!

mark from atl – I was referring to earlier comments citing polls that basically said canadians were scared of private care in their own country (while they seek it in others) but now that you mention it (re prenatal mortality), TAKE A LOOK before talking -……………….. the PLACES IN AMERICA WHERE INFANT MORTALITY IS HIGH ARE THE SAME PLACES WHERE THE POPULATION IS MOST DEPENDENT ON THE GOVERNMENT ………….. It is related to cocaine, smoking, obesity and STD’s which frankly I’m tired of paying for but apparently you are not because you seem to be supporting this plan that only encourages less self-care, more government dependence, and less emphasis on personal responsibility – ALL at someone else’s expense.

Ryan C: “I take the WHO’s opinion to be more valuable than the right wing parrots.”
Yes, the UN has been known for their fair and balanced opinions — especially toward the US. ;-)
Regardless, the WHO report you cite is almost 10 years old, and many would disagree with its methodology, not just “right wingers.” Provided you continue to agree that the WHO report as well as your negative opinion of the US healthcare system is opinion and not fact, you won’t find disagreement here.

danita: “The Harris/Decima is a major polling company in Canada and the results are totally up to date.
You are so desperate to push your bias you have abandoned the scientific method – weak.”
Care to cite their “scientific” methodology? I found the poll on their website, but was unable to locate a methodology describing how the poll was conducted. Since you appear to be so concerned with the “scientific method,” please show us the sampling data that should accompany any legitimate poll.

Anonymous:”Provided you continue to agree that the WHO report as well as your negative opinion of the US healthcare system is opinion and not fact, ”
By your philosophy, there are no facts. I suppose life expectancy is an opinion too. As are the more recent OECD studies on healthcare spending. Heck, maybe the whole recession is just an opinion!

“In another video in a 2007 speech to SEIU, Obama stated he wanted to end the private insurance industry by the end of his first term. If you are doubtful, go search….”
ROFLMAO!
The right wing parrots are even manipulating what the right wing media is handing them
“Senator Obama speaking at the SEIU’s New Leadership Health Care Forum on March 24, 2007:
“My commitment is to make sure that we have universal health care for all Americans by the end of my first term as President.
“I would hope that we could set up a system that allows those who can go through their employer to access a federal system or a state pool of some sort. But I don’t think we’re going to be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately. There’s going to be potentially some transition process. I can envision a decade out or fifteen years out or twenty years out.””

AI, I agree. Heard a democratic strategist saying earlier that we need to listen and quit attacking.
Well, I am listening. I am also doing my research which is more than most in congress. Even the President wasn’t aware of some aspects of the House Bill. Too many pages to digest I guess…and it contradicts his public statements.
Anyway, I figure it’s time that all Congress people of intelligence listen and understand the “shrill” sound is the next election. They listen and represent or they WILL be replaced.
And stop trying to sell us something they haven’t read and don’t know what’s really in it.

jhw539: “By your philosophy, there are no facts. I suppose life expectancy is an opinion too. As are the more recent OECD studies on healthcare spending. Heck, maybe the whole recession is just an opinion!”
Wrong. A fact is a verifiable piece of information, not subjective information based on one’s opinion. Life expectancy is a statistic or a fact. Facts and statistics can be used properly or abused and taken out of context.
Regardless, to cite the performance of the US healthcare system as not ranking “in the top 10″ based on a liberal report from the UN, is nothing more than opinion based on opinion — certainly not a verifiable fact. The WHO report amounts to nothing more than liberal opinion designed to further their agenda. Their definition of healthcare “performance” is highly debatable. Further, it is my understanding that they quit making the reports due to the difficulty in accurately creating them. In my opinion, that speaks to the overall veracity of the existing reports.

Is the Chicago scum going to come get us? Cicago scum is all they are !!!

mark and ryan keep wanting to make the argument (at least indirectly but smugly nonetheless) that obamacare will improve infant mortality in the US – nothing could be further from the truth – unless you are hoping that elective termination coverage will lower infant mortality rates (which some liberals are in fact, hoping for) – one of the biggest reasons that rural health care is devoid of enough prenatal care is the absence of tort reform – it can cost up to 60,000 dollars per year for an FP to request priveleges to deliver a baby – even one baby – imagine how many deliveries you need to pay for that – obamacare not only fails to provide tort reform but virtually ensures it will never happen – another reason obamacare will not help is because our rates really are not as bad as the statistics seem to indicate because we keep records so much better than other countries on this matter – also much money is already spent on big CITIES (as in – not states) where infant mortality is higher and lastly obamacare does not address the lifestyle choices that contribute to preterm births other than to attempt to promise free elective terminations – yeah, that will promote healthy lifestyles, rrrrrright …. just more disinformation from the liberal democrites – can you blame them?? it got them in office and the press helps them get away with it

Anonymous – You suggest that CDC and WHO data on America’s low life expectancy and low infant survival rates are biased. Don’t you know that this data is used by those in the medical field to develop and quantify community wide interventions. From the They are used in the New England Journal of Medicine to Lancet and other peer reviewed medical journals. You may have legitimate concerns over the shape health reform takes, but to dismiss out of hand data indicating the need for reform indicates that your motives may be driven more by ideology than interest in relieving suffering in our country.

tojoley – You make a good point regarding tort reform. However, the issue is not that simple. I worked for ten years in healthcare and I saw some surgeons who I would not let operate on me with a ten foot pole. Who regulates their quality? Certainly not the medical associations who tend to protect their own. Its the threat of a law suit that keeps them on task (again I refer to a small group of doctors, most are good folks). Having said that, universal health care can reduce malpractice insurance because a large part of lawsuit awards goes to pay future medical costs. A national health plan could significantly reduce the need for that part of an award.

“mark, the problems with comparing infant mortality data from country to country are WELL documented ” – When I heard about America’s low life spans and low infant survival rates I double checked the facts myself from primary sources such as the CDC. Its one reason why I support health reform, even though I dont support all of this administration’s policies. Please give me a primary source (not media) and I’ll check it out.

“more baloney from ryan c – first of all many of those states are very high in per capita government aid,”
Southern states run by Republicans for decades are high in per capita government aid?
“second, the breakdown by city makes my point”
What is your point?
“and third the whole usage of infant mortality to degrade american healthcare and support state control is a sham on too many levels to count”
Because we should be happy we have an infant mortality rate below some 3rd world countries?

the fact that some come from canada and some go to mexico for health care proves what independents, libertarians, moderates and conservatives are saying; we DO need reform but NOT the public option … when obama says that the only option to his plan is the status quo, he is not being honest -
****
Uh, when did Obama say the only other option is the status quo? He’s saying, “let’s get this done,” and he’s been rather flexible, IMO. He’s less insistent on the public option than others, and met with Senators today and said he wanted to consider bipartisan ideas. There are enough differences of opinion without having to constantly put made up words into other people’s mouths, no?
Also, it doesn’t really “prove” anything, although, yeah, I think we do need reform. The travel stories and examples of medical tourism are evidence that people travel for medical care– and that no matter what country you’re from, there are those who go to other countries for care. In UK, there are many stories about going to Budapest for dental care. I think the rub in all this that the supposed “argument” is actually a distraction that proves nothing, and puts forward no good ideas. It’s kind of a big “whatever” — a tangent. Now, if you say, like some have, that because critical care is lacking, or there are no good treatments for breast cancer, or something like that, people come to America, then you’re getting at something, but you have to know what you’re point is. I personally get tired of all the red herrings and smokescreens thrown around.
****
I’m still not sure why we are debating this point when neither you nor Danita has shown any proof that ALL Canadians love their system and would never come to the US for medical care.
****
Pesky, I can’t speak for Ryan and Danita, but personally I think it’s because your argument was just sort of a tangent, rather than “proof” of anything as it was initially presented. I’m not saying medical tourism doesn’t exist. It does!
Anyway, yeah, it’s getting a little old:) I’ll look at some of the other arguments when I get back from Pilates.

Intellectual dishonesty and intimidation, based on orchestrated thuggery at town hall meetings, are political tactics one would expect in dictatorships like Iran-not the USA. But, hey, let’s all welcome back the Nixonian Swift Boaters.

Is this really reporting? Mr. Tapper and the white house seem unwilling to take dissenters views at face value, but are more than happy to take as gospel President Obama’s statements and proclamations about a bill he admits to not having read.
The President’s own assurances to seniors in this story directly contradict other statements he has made about health care options that might be available to seniors under his plan, such as ditching the pacemaker in favor of pain pills. This is shoddy work at best. And Jake’s one of my favorites.
Finally, about 7 months ago dissent was patriotic. What happened? Did Congress rush through a bill outlawing healthcare reform dissent while we were sleeping?

impeach obama you are fired for viloating the rights of the people of this country

“to mark and ryan – according to the CIA, 179 countries have infant mortality worse than USA ” – Yes, and every one is underdeveloped. Are you cherry picking “stats” to fit your ideology? If not, please tell me the number of countries the CIA says has lower infant death rates than the U.S.

Re: ABC New’s reporting tonight that town hall meetings and participants’ peaceful voiced protests across the nation appear to be ‘orchestrated’, I personally protest to this comment and false news statement, as do other citizens. Many people across the country, consisting of liberals, conservatives, Democrats, 3rd party, and Republicans, simply do not want the federalized health care plan to be passed. A lot of people have contacted senators and congress, only to have those representatives be of a differing opinion or undecided, regardless of what their people want! This was true of the Tarp Act. So, people are having to take another step, which is a constitutional right, and attend town hall meetings and peacefully voice their objections. Whether or not these people consist of individuals, small groups or large groups is of no importance. What is important is that people do not want the federal health care plan passed or put into effect, especially having studied info. re: the same program in other countries and the gross problems and lack of medical attention, lack of care or benefits, etc etc. and problems that resulted. Citizens of European countries and Canada can tell you it all! They don’t like it, don’t want it, and end up coming to America for treatment! That should say it all. Perhaps too it would be wise for someone in the ABC newsroom to fully research the matter and present it on an unbiased format. There are documents and videos out on the web of the whitehouse’s comments about the program, and too, that this program will increase taxes. There’s info. available on the whitehouse’s view of eugenics which typically occur with a program of this nature. These federalized or country health care programs provided inefficiency, inadequate medical care, lack of medical care or benefits, and limits a patient to what that one doctor dictates as to what is, what is not, etc. Citizens of other countries having this type of health care plan all report having had family or friends die due to inefficiency, lack of adequate care, differing opinions such as doctor vs. patient, and results in the elderly, seriously or terminally ill, handicapped, going without care, or, dying, or possibly loosing a limb, etc. It is totally unfair for you folks At ABC to not fully disclose the facts as well as to report false facts. Is this bill to be rushed thru such as the Stimulus Package, and when a greater portion of the country did not want that package? Thus, people are following their rights and are voicing their opinions, which is a right of this country as opposed to being a privilege. Many people at these meetings have reported that they were told to shut up and listen and were not allowed to direct questions. Many of the speakers did not want to hear their protests. Its no wonder citizens are upset and fed up. So don’t say that people are part of a Republican plot against the Democrats, that is not true. I for one have always valued ABC, but after tonight, my opinion of ABC has been changed. FYI, folks, check out some of the folks out there that have copies of documents, and other proof, re: the health plan and on other vital topics. Watch Glenn Beck of FNC (Fox News Channel), Lou Dobbs, Alex Jones who has a daily radio talk show and web sites, also check out Dr. Sheri Tenpenny and Jane Burgermeister. All of these folks have valuable comments, have done intensive research, have documentation, etc. etc. Then make your own decisions. But research, listen to what the whitehouse says or has said, past and present, what has or has not happened, get informed, talk, research, check out the tv and radio show newscasters’ info., check out the web and anything and everything on the web, make decisions, voice your opinions. Just don’t be told what to do. Decide for yourself. Please voice your opinions peacefully, respectfully, firmly, confidently, loudly. To voice your opinion is not dissent, it is a right of a concerned citizen. It is not a privilege, it is a constitutional right.

“Whether or not these people consist of individuals, small groups or large groups is of no importance” – I agree. I happen to support healthcare reform, but I believe that it is every one’s right to speak out for or against it. However, from what I have seen of these townhall meetings, it appears that a small group of the reform opponents appear to be intent on shouting down anyone who rises in support of reform. Thats hooliganism and I am sure that not all those who question reform condone that kind of activity.

“Wasn’t the country set up to serve the people, rather than go against their wishes? ” – The President ran on a platform of reform, including a public option. A majority of Americans voted for him. Thats democracy. But now the insurance companies and a few ideologues are doing all they can to thwart the will of the people. Thats not democracy.

tojoley, you really need to get more precise. I asked for a quote, an example. You could be right but all I’ve heard the Prez say falls under the heading of ” now or never” or if not now, when”, not it’s this specific plan only or the status quo. I’ve never heard that and I want specifix. I don’t have blinders on, you’re just purposely twisting stuff or don’t understand, uh, sentences in context. And on the whole economic crisis I said nobody was blameless, and didn’t point nasty fingers, and then you recite a bunch of debunked baloney straight of the Limbaugh-Malkin-Beck-Coulter-Hannity playbook.
Did he PROMISE unemployment wouldn’t go up beyond 8% or did he assert that it wouldn’t or shouldn’t if the stimulus went through? Do you get the difference between those two? Am I going to get more baloney-filled accusations thrown at me cuz I dared ask questions about your swiss cheese proclamations?
Thank you Mark for pointing out the problem with tojoley’s stats.

Obama would get more support if he DID advocate eliminating private insurance.
Though even with single payer, there probably will be some people with private insurance anyway. Thats fine, let them.
those of us without money to burn, however, are much better off without it.

Ahhh, remember when dissent was patriotic?? ABC News the Code Pink psycho shrills for the elites of the liberal gestapo.

Jake Tapper goes out on the attack
***
Good lord, Karen. Get a grip. What “attack”? Reporting the news from the WH when his assignment is, uh, the WH?

As JT reports, the lobbyist-run groups Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, which coordinated the tea parties earlier this year, are now pursuing an aggressive (and sometimes violent and sickly disturbing, see the effigy of a congressman) strategy to create an “image” of mass public opposition to health care and clean energy reform. From the recently leaked memo to conservative health reform protestors:
“Artificially Inflate Your Numbers;Be Disruptive Early And Often; Try To “Rattle” Not Have An Intelligent Debate”
***
Some of the talking points or tips sure explain a lot. And someone earlier was talking about change? Whatever happened to “Be the change you want to see in the world” ?

Facts are a stubborn thing. The protesters are not using teleprompters. The protesters are being vilified by MSNBC. The protesters are more familiar with the House and Senate bills that elected members of the House and Senate. The protesters have not polled their position.

A reporter asked Gibbs if the president would read every page of the healthcare bill? His response was hilarious+++++Ahhhh, I’m sure he will be briefed on the details++++You got to be kidding me.

“A reporter asked Gibbs if the president would read every page of the healthcare bill? His response was hilarious” – Thats not how large organizations like the congress and presidency work. They work on the committee system with those involved in each specialized committee more involved in the details. My goodness if the president tried to read each of the hundreds of thousands of pages of legislation that get passed each year he would never do anything else. You are throwing up a red herring. If you have problems with one of the five bills attack it on the merits of policy. As is you seem to be recycling right wing talking points. Thats not your intention, is it?

“Alyson I will be po’d if he doesn’t read something this important and this expensive word by word himself.” – Is this any more important than the defense bill, homeland security bill education bill? Remember, each is thousands of pages.

Alyson No, but they received memos which instructed them to pretend as if they were the majority, as if most Americans do not support the so-called ‘socialist’ agenda of Democrats, and to not engage in intelligent debates. +++++++Most Americans do not support a socialist agenda and the method by which they are showing their disapproval was taken from Obama’s/Democrats own playbook.

alyson – he obama says it so often (the crap about doing nothing equals the status quo so we have to pass my plan now) I can’t believe you haven’t heard it – so pay attention – and as far as mark in atl goes, he asked for medical references and I gave them – then he nitpicks my stats instead of admitting he was wrong about his own cherry picking – the answer to your question mark is 19 and as I already made clear, it is you who are comparing apples and oranges when you compare the various countries – bottom line is that obamacare is a BAD idea and mainly because of the public option – you libs are in the wrong so you obfuscate – shameful – I’d prefer a straight up debate instead of your classic democrat axelrod/carville attack the attacker word games

tojoley – If, as you say, the CIA factbook states that 19 countries have higher infant survival rates than the U.S. dont you see that as a problem? I looked it up and those 19 countries all have national health plans. Shouldnt we try that as a solution since it seems to work for them? Babies are dying for Christ’s sake.

“Wasn’t the country set up to serve the people, rather than go against their wishes? ” – The President ran on a platform of reform, including a public option. A majority of Americans voted for him. Thats democracy. But now the insurance companies and a few ideologues are doing all they can to thwart the will of the people. Thats not democracy.
Posted by: Mark from atlanta | Aug 4, 2009 7:44:45 PM
————————–
I am not BELIEVING the claims here about how the pushback by citizens is just a small group of nuts organized by lobbyists and wicked corporations or something. Several national polls show that view to be quite incorrect. Comments about Rush/Hannity/O’Reilly/Beck, etc too, as if they are just fringe kooks. Have you checked out their regular viewership lately? Compared their ratings and viewership to ANY of their competition? That’s NOT ‘fringe’ by any definition. That’s mainstream folks. That’s a LOT of people throughout the nation.
This sort of dismissal of other people’s serious concerns, and our very rights to be heard and represented by our elected officials is really unreasonable.
Yes, Obama won. It was hardly a mandate for major change, however. Oh, yes, BOTH candidates ran on Change and Reform — but it was primarily ‘change from Bush’ and moderate BIPARTISAN reforms. Obama worked very hard trying to convince all that he would be bipartisan – uniter, not divider, reach across the isle effectively, etc etc., remember? Since the election its been, hey, we’re here, now that we’ve said that and maybe had a beer with you we’ve been bipartisan, but we don’t have to actually DO anything you want, becuase, hey, “I won” (h/t, Obama). Until the sharp drop in the economy roughly three months before the election, McCain/Palin were leading. Obama was working very hard to present himself as a PRAGMATIC MODERATE Democrat – anything but a far left liberal. Recall the vilification of Joe the Plumber all because Obama slipped up and was honest for once about his desire to ‘spread the wealth?’
Those of us who said that Obama’s past history and careful attention to his wording argued strongly that he would probably govern from a hard left position were generally either ridiculed or vilified – and often entirely, utterly, incorrectly and immediately assumed to be and labeled as ‘right wing fanatic Republican GOP racists.’
Only 53% of the country voted for Obama. Definately a win, but certainly no popular vote landslide. Furthermore, it appears that the percentage of elegible voters who voted was about the same as in 2004 – although there were more people registered, so more total voters. “Despite widespread predictions of record turnout in this year’s presidential election, roughly the same portion of eligible voters cast ballots in 2008 as in 2004. Between 60.7 percent and 61.7 percent of the 208.3 million eligible voters cast ballots this year, compared with 60.6 percent of those eligible in 2004″
My point is that Obama simply doesn’t have some massive mandate for ‘transforming’ America, for overturning everything and trying to reshape our entire nation and economic system. A large part of this election was ‘not Bush’ and McCain was seen as being an extension of Bush far more than Obama.
So to see the dismissive and demonizing comments here about those who oppose the current forms of health care reform is very disturbing. Particularly in light of what Obama himself is doing in this very regard. Are you folks even aware of HIS ‘organizing’ activities trying to ‘sell’ this health care reform?
From Time, mid June:
“Obama is also relying on many of the high-tech grass-roots organizing techniques that worked so well for his presidential campaign. Last weekend the Organizing for America operation that was spun off from his campaign organization held health-care-reform house parties around the country. On Wednesday, the Democratic National Committee launched a new website that it calls the Health Care Action Center. It has tools to help supporters to organize and to share their personal health-care stories, as well as to write letters to editors and contact congressional representatives.”
Do you get that? Obama’s CAMPAIGN organization is weirdly still not only in existance, but he has now activated it — working AGAINST a large segment of the population in trying to push this ‘reform’ down our throats. Are you also aware of how many lobbyists he’s hired into his administration? He’s countermanded his own executive orders in this regard, made multiple exceptions. I’m not certain if its Obama or the Dem. Party, but are you aware that they’ve been running very negative ads against the ‘blue dog’ DEMOCRATS, in their home states?? Folks, these are the MODERATE democrats, and they’re running vilifying ads against them in their home states to try to force them to give in on this health care bill. They’ve been opposing it in part because of the huge expense, which is, according to the CBO, unsupportable. Now they’re talking about using budget reconciliation to pass this bill!!! That’s outrageous! Its SUPPOSED to ONLY be used for budget, NOT for policy bills like this – but using reconciliation, which even for budget is supposed to be last resort, because they can pass it with far less yes votes that way.
So, when folks happen to disagree with your stance, they’re clearly just fringe people being nefariously organized by evil groups, NOT grass roots, not REAL concerns, not REAL PEOPLE…. but when Obama himself does it, that’s kewl, its all grass-roots, individuals expressing themselves, community driven great stuff, lookin’ out for all the people??!!?? Or worse, you vilify the opposition for doing something that you haven’t even a clue your own side is doing even worse, and EVEN MORE OF.
Are you aware that a week or two ago, he admitted that he wasn’t familiar with some of the most basic, major provisions of the bill — e.g., how the ‘Exchanges’ worked and affected private insurance – that he stated he hadn’t read those sections of the bill?? This starts on page 16, and he hasn’t read it – and this is where it outlaws private insurance as it currently exists, and forces everything into the extensively regulated ‘exchanges’ where, for example, you will no longer have the option of a PPO, no longer be able to go straight to a specialist — ALL ‘private insurance’ will be HMO’s and so regulated that they will be private in name only.
Folks, HE didn’t design this thing. He handed the entire issue off to congress, and just who do you think THEY’VE had writing it? (hint, lobbyists sure ought to be high on your list). That’s a large part of the reason its such a mixed up confusing monstrosity. One congressman said “why bother reading 1,000 pages when it would take two days and two lawyers to explain it?” Is this REALLY what we want to vote on? Do we really think that voting to pass something no one has a good understanding of will wind up with a better system by chance than what we’ve currently got?
Please – PLEASE. Consider the ISSUES. Debate the ISSUES. Don’t drop into demonizing and marginalizing those who don’t happen to agree with you — believe it or not, if you actually consider that they’re real people too, just like YOU ARE, you might find that if you listen you actually learn some things that you didn’t know… and they learn some things from you, and we all wind up a little closer to some sort of agreement. It does NOT have to be THIS bill, RIGHT NOW. There really isn’t any emergency that justifies rushing something this massive and this important through. We do NOT want to jump from the frying pan into the fire. For something this crucial, that affects every one of us, it is far more important to go slowly and GET IT RIGHT, even if in little bits at a time, than to rush something through just to get it done and find that we’ve created a far worse mess than we had to begin with.
There are quite a few things that could be done with little or no cost, that would have major positive impact — how about we start with things like that, rather than a nightmare like the bills currently being considered?

the method by which they are showing their disapproval was taken from Obama’s/Democrats own playbook.
Posted by: Boxcar | Aug 4, 2009 10:57:26 PM
***
LOL. I did see the reference to Saul Alinsky in the leaked memos. I disagree strongly that either Obama’s agenda or the broader Democrat agenda is socialist so it’s odd, and over-the-top, to me that it gets that characterization.

I’d rather he read the whole thing himself but this isn’t unusual for Presidents of either party. In fact he reads and writes more of his own stuff than many. I’d imagine the briefings are thorough.
Posted by: Alyson | Aug 4, 2009 10:24:17 PM
==============================
Alyson, where are you getting that he reads and especially writes more of his own stuff than many? I’ve gotten quite the opposite impression — from what I understand, he’s ‘delegated’ (to be polite) the stimulus bill, budget, etc., over to congress. Effectively abrogating his responsibilities almost entirely in terms of developing these sorts of major policy or program issues.
We’ve got nothing from him in terms of authorship while he was a senator, either federal or state, virtually nothing from any time previos either which is very odd considering that a number of the positions he was in typcially would expect to have extensive authorship — lecturer in constitutional law (ironically I heard a lawyer put it as the lawyer’s equivalent of a doctor who chooses psychology over far more technically demanding medical specialties), … nothing from being a Harvard Law Review Editor, or from Occidental or Columbia colleges…. I gather they’ve managed to turn up only two papers that he’s authored? One the “nuke free world” paper, and I’m not sure what the other was…. but its very strange that there is so little available in this regard, and that he’s sealed records up tight wherever he possibly can. Except of course, the two books he wrote – about himself.
So…. I haven’t seen any articles claiming that he’s been involved very much at all in writing, authoring, editing, etc., anything during his time in office…

The protesters have not polled their position.
***
No, but they received memos which instructed them to pretend as if they were the majority, as if most Americans do not support the so-called ‘socialist’ agenda of Democrats, and to not engage in intelligent debates.
Posted by: Alyson | Aug 4, 2009 10:07:50 PM
=======================
WHOA.
You guys have GOT to be joking.
The positions, pro and con, have been polled and are being polled up the yin-yang. I could fill PAGES here with national polling results on the health care issue.
Do you two really seriously believe that folks opposing these health care bills are fringe as in a very small segment of the overall US population, and that their positions haven’t even been polled to see how widespread it is or isn’t?

“Alyson I will be po’d if he doesn’t read something this important and this expensive word by word himself.” – Is this any more important than the defense bill, homeland security bill education bill? Remember, each is thousands of pages.
Posted by: Mark from atlanta | Aug 4, 2009 10:51:32 PM
——————————-
How many pre-organized (with questioners pre-selected) has he done already on health care? How much time spent flying to and from each? Natoinal prime time TV, which cost each network millions in the middle of “the worst recession since the great depression” (h/t Obama) and for which they arm twisted network owners and executives? I’m sure you can think of other relevant examples.
How about he cuts out, say, one, maybe two of those, so he has a better understanding of a bill that will affect every citizen in one way or another, cost trillions, and take over… what is it, another 5% or 17% of the entire economy of the US?
You ask: “Is this any more important than the defense bill, homeland security bill education bill?” Are these bills totally trashing the existing systems, and implementing completely new programs? Or are they primarily a continuation of business as usual with a few changes here and there? Um… I think they’re the latter, at least so far, right? If so, then heck YES the ‘health care’ bill is VASTLY more important for him to understand than each of the others you mention. I’d like it if he read the entire thing also – but am far far more concerned that he actually honestly UNDERSTANDS what is in it and how it all fits together. Ultimately, as long as he has a thorough understanding of the entire document, I don’t care if he gets it from reading it or good briefings. The problem is that its pretty clear to me that he does not. He’s more interested in ‘selling’ something he doesn’t understand, and then being able to claim the accomplishment of having managed to get it passed so fast.
That’s quite simply NOT GOOD MANAGEMENT. Its NOT GOOD GOVERNANCE. Its NOT PRUDENT. Its NOT GOOD FOR ANY OF US. Its NOT GOOD FOR AMERICA.

Alyson No, but they received memos which instructed them to pretend as if they were the majority, as if most Americans do not support the so-called ‘socialist’ agenda of Democrats, and to not engage in intelligent debates. +++++++Most Americans do not support a socialist agenda and the method by which they are showing their disapproval was taken from Obama’s/Democrats own playbook.
Posted by: Boxcar | Aug 4, 2009 10:57:26 PM
——————————
Unfortunately, the bit about taking tactics straight from Obama & the Dem Party playbook is exactly what I’ve heard also.
Don’t you folks recall this little (NOT) organization called Moveon? You’d be hard put to find nastier tactics.
The new black panthers literally blocking polling building doors and intimidating any non-Dem voters, ON VIDEO no less – they got a conviction against them, and the No. 3 Justice, appointed by Obama, had the case DISMISSED.
Don’t get me wrong, I am NOT advocating obnoxious behavior, let alone violence. I’m just saying that this isn’t anything new, and its sure not something Dems are innocent of.
IF some are behaving egregiously, that quite simply doesn’t mean that there aren’t a huge number of very decent people in the nation who are opposed to these current ‘reforms’ and who have every right to be heard and represented. We’re getting awfully tired of being automatically vilified, relegated to a supposed ‘fringe’ demonized and labeled as things that we aren’t when those doing the labeling have NO way to possible know if we are or aren’t a member of the groups they assume we are….
We want to discuss the issues, based on evidence and FACTS — and not just he said she said. That gets difficult on a board like this, with a complex issue like health care… but it means that BOTH sides have to be willing to try to dig out some actual hard information that is supportable, and then try to discuss that, present any countering information, and so on.
Rational Debate is the Path to Knowledge

“I’d prefer a straight up debate instead of your classic democrat axelrod/carville attack the attacker word games” – Me too.
***
Me three.
Posted by: Alyson | Aug 5, 2009 12:19:11 AM
==============
Me four.

mark – I am not saying that no single payer option ever did any country good – I am saying that it will not work in the USA for five important reasons ( a perfect storm if you will); 1) heterogenous population (one size doesn’t fit all here) 2) special interest based politics predominate 3) entitlement fantasies and lack of sense of personal responsibility 4) we’ve been actively destroying and deconstructing our own economy for 20 years and will probably not be able to pay for this (probably ever) 5) our own government has caused most of our problems in the first place (and shows NO sign of learning from past mistakes) — besides that – the single payer option runs a huge risk of quashing autonomy of the physician (which eliminates every concept of holistic medicine which by it’s very nature must be individualized) AND runs a high risk of incompetent management by current politicians AND runs a high risk of abuse of power by future politicians —– be that as it may, single payer is not officially on the table and the current plan that is on the table is obviously going to cause serious serious problems for us all – economically and medically speaking – whether or not these are intended consequences or unintended consequences and the plans on the table do not address costs and will likely worsen the incidence of preventable disease and worsen access and will not help infant mortality – this is my day job – I know what I am talking about – but most Americans can do math and they know these bills stink stink stink on their surface – so why all the cover for obama? obama is a smart man and he should worry more about his own legacy and OUR country than he does about the democratic party agenda and their donors – so far, he has not shown any courage on this as far as facing down his own party – NONE – instead he rushes for the sake of getting ahead of the 2010 elections – all short sighted and partisan – we CAN have meaningful health insurance reform and tort reform without the public option and with massive bipartisan support but he denies us that and as long as he does, I will have no choice but to believe he does not want things to get better for our current system, instead he wants our system to be single payer – period – too bad he cannot be honest about that and/or mellow out – instead he remains dishonest and headstrong – that is bad for us all – and yes, some of these criticisms apply to past republican politicians but they are not in control now and obama is – and he is failing!

and the plans on the table do not address costs and will likely worsen the incidence of preventable disease and worsen access and will not help infant mortality – this is my day job – I know what I am talking about -
Posted by: tojoley | Aug 5, 2009 1:34:27 AM
So, tojoley, very interesting post. Do you mind if I ask what you like in the way of reform– what ideas you’ve had or heard or thought about that would work? I admit I won’t read your response till the morning cuz I’m exhausted and everything I’m typing has mega typos (sorry everyone) BUT KR posted something today that got me thinking outside the box, and I would, honestly, like to hear good ideas and not just talking points. Mind sharing? I think sometimes some of us (myself included in that) get stuck in preconceived boxes but I love hearing good ideas.
Have a good night!

Alyson, for whatever its worth — Saul Alinsky is sort of the acknowledged father of ‘community organizing’ and the associated techniques. Obama’s mother, and his father, were both very much into socalism, Alinsky, and all of this sort of stuff. You could say that Obama teethed on Alinsky, and that is why you wind up hearing about the association.

Alyson, for whatever its worth — Saul Alinsky is sort of the acknowledged father of ‘community organizing’ and the associated techniques. Obama’s mother, and his father, were both very much into socalism, Alinsky, and all of this sort of stuff. You could say that Obama teethed on Alinsky, and that is why you wind up hearing about the association.
***
Thanks. I’ve heard of Alinsky. I’veeven been called “Mrs. Alinsky” here on these so-friendly boards. After all, I live in Chicago and voted for Obama and I think we need health reform and I thought Gates arrest was a mistake so I must Mrs. Alinsky, right?
Need a little cheese for that whine, Aly?
Sorry. I have to say that after reading those leaked memos and reading some of the posts I was so ticked and felt like such a sap for honestly trying to engage in dialogue with people who think differently than me. And I’m still feeling a little pissy about it so I should go to bed:)

I am amazed that Congress is still debating this bill…Start Over…If this was a good bill that a large percentage of America favored it would have already been passed…Democrats are not confident that the displeasure over their potential votes won’t negatively affect their bids for re-election…I think splitting it into separate bills or utlizing fastrack to circumvent the 60 vote threshold in the Senate will only serve to infuriate constituents, to include those that might be riding the fence towards approval…As far as town hall meetings being staged there is probably a small amount of truth to that, but not enough to invoke the responses that have greeted these events. I think even the most liberal of Democrats recognize there is growing disatisfation among common everyday people with the amount of money Congress is spending and the rate at which large, unvetted bills are being pushed through…I am enjoying my whopping $13 tax cut…Aren’t you?…I am enjoying all the new jobs that have been created…Aren’t you?…I am enjoying subsidizing the automakers?…Aren’t you?
Posted by: Blair | Aug 5, 2009 12:35:29 AM
=============================
I agree whole heartedly Blair.
Start Over. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.

Hi Alyson,
Tojoley is correct here. Obama has made statements to this effect many times, typically in a very demeaning fashion towards Republicans and/or anyone who isn’t automatically for passing the bill uncontested as it stands. Its one of his stock statements, his all too commonly used strawmen, that really tends to irk me.
***
Seriously? I think I must not pay attention to it because I’m pro-Obama, pro-reform and I’m just actively waiting for the bills to read them in detail. I know things used to irk me quite a bit about Bush (and Cheney) that my mom didn’t notice, because she supported his policies hook,line and sinker.
I confess I can see how that would be irksome.
Posted by: Alyson | Aug 5, 2009 1:59:55 AM
——————-
Hey Alyson,
Yeah. Its funny how that works, isn’t it? What we notice and what we don’t, or what bugs us and what doesn’t? I’m not even Repub, and believe it or not, that’s part of what bugs me so much about him doing it! Because he’s done it not just with health care, but with the stimulus, etc too.
Advanced warning here, I’m paraphrasing and condensing, and it might get your hackles up but this really is what he pretty much puts across…. Its the whole, “I’m not going to put down the Repubs, but you know, they’re the party of No, and we’ve got to be bipartisan, although, of course, since I won, that means I might have them over for dinner but I don’t have to compromise on anything, THEY’VE got to give in, and then, even when they DO propose a BUNCH of things, since no one is likely to really KNOW about it, and there isn’t much way for the Repubs to get the word out, not compared to how much volume *I* can put out about it, I’ll just claim that they don’t want to do anything, and that’s not acceptable becuase each and every thing is the worst crisis ever (even tho I wouldn’t stoop to fear mongering), so we have to pass this thing I’m selling you RIGHT NOW.”
Let me give you an example.
The stimulus package. Did you know that the Repubs put together and offered a full alternative package? I’ll be surprised if you were aware of it, most folks aren’t… but they did, and it was scored using the exact same protocols and assumptions used to score the Dem/Obama stimulus. Results? It would have been half the cost, and TWICE the jobs created. Yet during his prime time press speech(s?) Obama has claimed that the Repubs offered no alternative.
I mean, Alyson, there’s just too much of this sort of stuff with Obama that gets to be downright dishonest. I don’t see any other reasonable explanation.
This health care bill is another prime example. There is no crisis that requires passing this quickly. Zero. Its disingenuous to claim that refusing to pass it right away is somehow insisting on ‘continuing to do nothing.’
He’s even claimed repeatedly that we can’t fix our economy and get out of this recession without passing health care reform. That’s blatantly false also. An argument can be made that over time, IF costs keep climbing as they have been, THEN we’ll be in trouble many years down the road… but there are problems with that argument.
First, it assumes the rate of increase will be constant, and that isn’t necessarily a good assumption. We’ve had an explosion of technology in the last couple of decades (MRI’s, CT’s, etc) that have contributed to cost increases, but there’s a good chance we’ll see things level out. Gov. meddling in the market has a huge impact on costs in and of itself. Its NOT a ‘free market.’
So… ok, he COULD make an argument that he’s referring to medicare and medicaid costs and those being bankrupt and needing to be addressed. That’s true, BUT, again, its not an immediate crisis, and its not linked in any way to having caused or to getting us out of this recession. Nor will the current Obamacare even help fix those problems. On the contrary, it will make those problems worse, according to the CBO.
So…. on this one I know Repubs have offered several different alternatives also. I’ve honestly NO idea how comprehensive they are (how would we even decide how comprehensive is reasonable or needed???), or how ‘good’ or ‘bad’ their options are — I haven’t checked them out because frankly, its moot since the Obama/Pelosi/Reid machine has made it abundantly clear that there is less than zero chance anything the Repubs have come up with on this issue will have a chance of being voted on.
You know, Alyson, its sort of the political version of race-baiting tho — I mean, your opponent offers alternatives, but you go out and claim to everyone that they’re the party of “no” just trying to be obstructionist for the sole purpose of playing politics (yes, he has said that!!) and advancing your party and political career above the good of the country and its citizens…. Its just downright twisted, since the one playing politics is Obama! Its made even worse/more irksome, because all along Obama is the one who speaks so eloquently about being above exactly the sort of tactics that he’s using, being ‘post-partisan’, and a ‘uniter, not a divider’ and so on. Yet the very things that he says creates exactly the opposite. Its downright Orwellian.
Anyhow, I think that’s why I tend to note it and get so irked by it, because it seems to me to be pretty blatant party politics at its worst, and I really expect far better than that from our president, no matter what party he’s affiliated with, what color his skin, or anything thing else. He’s the President of the United States for heaven’s sake, he needs to ACT like it. Sigh.

You guys go right ahead and believe what you want, but these people attending the townhall meetings are REAL! They are mad, the they mean business. Enough is enough. Trillion dollar bills passed without even being read, our whole healthcare system in jeapordy. And do you know who I blame??? The media. They haven’t covered HALF of what is going on in this administration and America is just now beginning to realize what this Chicago bunch is up to. These town hall meetings are the best thing to ever happen – people are finally realizing that the elite, progressive left-wingers are about to ruin our country in the name of “progress.”

alyson – on GOOD reform: I am back at work so I must rush this answer so please bear that in mind – some of this stuff sounds politically incorrect because I am giving it in the short hand version due to time – ….
…good reform; (no particular order) a) insurance industry reform to allow true portability and do away with pre-exisitng clauses except for waiting periods but even that would be restricted (waiting periods discourage healthy people from waiting until they get sick to buy insurance) b) tort reforms on non-actual damages with penalties for filing frivilous claims c) prevention prevention prevention d) universal CATASTROPHIC coverage e) meaningful immigration reform f) incentives for primary care and emergency care g) incentives for emr h) expand health savings accounts – more later but note that I strongly feel the public option hurts all of these endeavors above – believe it or not – ALL of them

Mark from atlanta: “Anonymous – You suggest that CDC and WHO data on America’s low life expectancy and low infant survival rates are biased.”
No, I didn’t. I said that the statistics can be “abused and taken out of context.” I’m not debating the accuracy of the underlying statistics. I’m debating the findings of the report. Try to follow along.
Mark from atlanta: “You may have legitimate concerns over the shape health reform takes, but to dismiss out of hand data indicating the need for reform indicates that your motives may be driven more by ideology than interest in relieving suffering in our country.”
Tell me, Mark. What suffering will Obama’s healthcare reform eliminate?

good points “anonymous” – obamacare relieves no suffering – NONE – and in fact, increases the suffering of many including our grandparents who WILL get hit arbitrarily by rationing AND our grandkids who WILL get hit by the debt (because rationing is the only possible way this medicare expansion could ever hope to contain costs and even then, the rationing will not be enough to cover the cost by a long shot) – the ONLY suffering relieved by obamacare is the false relief that supporters feel who THINK they’ve done something good but pay NO attention to the unintended consequences and to obama’s fund raisers who are sure to reward him – so he HURTS your family and country for HIS benefit – this reminds me of the family doctor who sees a mild “back pain” patient on thursday afternoon or friday morning and says “yes” for a note of return to work on Monday and thinks he or she is being compassionate – when in reality, what often happens is that the patient was supposed to work on that weekend and conveniently did not tell the doctor and simply wanted to go to the beach instead and now his co-workers have to pull his dead weight on the weekend shift – so what seems like compassion for one is actually causing suffering for two or three others and the wheenerhead goes back to work on monday with a hangover and a sunburn – so wo gets relief – noone – this metaphor may seemed stretched but it isn’t really – RWR once said “creating a desert and then giving a man a glass of water is not compassion” and he’s right – BHO needs to wake up for the sake of his country

The snitch email is fun. I did ask how much they pay their informants, but they haven’t gotten back to me yet.
So far, I’ve snitched on about 8 or 10 things, including a couple of blog posts on CNN, and an Astroturfing email sent out by Pres. Obama.
Snitch early, snitch often… it’s your patriotic duty!

The truth is in Title I PROTECTIONS AND STANDARDS FOR QUALIFIED HEALTH BENEFITS PLANS in the Ways and Means Committee version of the bill. Section 102 grandfathers existing employer plans, but subsection (i) limits these plans existence to as long as the plans are not modified by any changes. Section 1175 Authority To Deny Plans Bids subsection A adds to the Social Security Act Section 1854(a)(5) that set Medicare to add a new clause Nothing in this section shall be construed as requiring the Secretary to accept any or every bid by an MA organization under this subsection. This can be used to eliminate physician and hospitals.

HERE’S MY CRITICAL E-MAIL: OBAMA’S HEALTHCARE PLAN SUCKS!!! Oh, yeah, and kiss my ass, too!

Hey, keep those critical emails circulating. And add the snitch email flag@whitehouse.gov to your list when you send them.

..good reform; (no particular order) a) insurance industry reform to allow true portability and do away with pre-exisitng clauses except for waiting periods but even that would be restricted (waiting periods discourage healthy people from waiting until they get sick to buy insurance) b) tort reforms on non-actual damages with penalties for filing frivilous claims c) prevention prevention prevention d) universal CATASTROPHIC coverage e) meaningful immigration reform f) incentives for primary care and emergency care g) incentives for emr h) expand health savings accounts – more later
Posted by: tojoley | Aug 5, 2009 9:56:30 AM
Thanks tojoley. I’m not sure what you mean when it comes to incentives for emr, but I can’t argue with any of these. I do have another question, if you see this. A lot of people find rationed care a scary thought, but, IMO, it already is rationed via the private sector– and while I’ve been out of the managed care gig for 7 years,back in the day there were a lot of administrative inefficiencies, and even nightmares, that leave me unconvinced the private sector as it stands can solve the mess (in other words, the private sector is great mantra doesn’t work for me– I saw up close for many years how very ungreat it could be. I don’t want government-run medical facilities or physican practices, but I do want some other kind of payment system– and as a small business owner I want co-ops of some sort. ) I’m not sure where you work but you mentioned insurance reform, so I wondered if you have any thoughts on administrative costs and inefficiencies or rationed care via the private sector. I’d really like to hear your perspective.
__
and p.s. to Atlas, thanks for all your posts:) I have no idea why I like them (wink) , but I appreciate the support on the Alinsky thing, and you know, of course, I still like the Prez. Somehow I’m thinking we’ll never find common ground in our perspectives but it’s interesting to talk about the differences.
and p.p.s. to everyone else, no worries on turning yourself in for the comments posted here (if you’re a suspect), I already have!!! (totally kidding!!)

Atlas, if you come over here tonite, I wrote “Somehow I’m thinking we’ll never find common ground in our perspectives” in my p.s. and I meant, specifically about the President Obama. I’m sure we can find common ground in other areas:)

Atlas, if you come over here tonite, I wrote “Somehow I’m thinking we’ll never find common ground in our perspectives” in my p.s. and I meant, specifically about the President Obama. I’m sure we can find common ground in other areas:)
Posted by: Alyson | Aug 6, 2009 2:56:47 AM
========================
Hi Alyson,
I gotcha on that and no worries. :0) Suspect you are right, although I bet with time we wind up closer on the Prez even, one way or the other. Maybe! Let me say also that it wouldn’t matter a bit to me if he were republican and an old white guy, or oriental or whatever — its his policies and attitude towards citizens and his position that I’m having an increasingly difficult time with and would no matter who it was. I’d've been up in arms every bit as much if it’d been Bush too or anyone else I can think of.

Why is the health care reform is only good enough for its sheeple but not the elitist of the Obama administration.
freedom of speech only applies to those that are in agreement with Obama the dictator.
freedom of religion only applies if you are not Christian.
freedom of press soon will only apply to those media resources owned by the federal government.
Soon the progressives will roll over to communism.

I hate this plan and this president and all of his mob connections “Chicago” and the entire congress and senate including republicans. “Come Get Me” Want my address?

Yeah, someone tell Obama we asked for health care he’d promised and we want it now.
Now. Not after summer recess. NOW.
Posted by: JoeFivepack | Aug 6, 2009 9:49:53 AM
—————————–
Joe, even assuming they pass it, you’ll be waiting a LONG time. At least in the House monstrosity, they start TAXING all of us in 2011, but they don’t actually implement the health care aspects until 2013. Isn’t that nice?
Nice of them to make that aspect widely known too, isn’t it? So even the CBO estimates that show it will significantly add to the deficit, are only showing 7 or 8 years of “health care reform” for 9 to 10 years of huge tax increases. SWEEEEEET. (NOT)
A few more weeks or months makes zero difference other than the chances that maybe they’ll wake up and see the light, scrap this thing and start over.

years due to exposes of horrific sweat shops. But you are able to be assured that this will never happen to Karentraditional shopping.For some time now, the ‘retro’ image has been the ‘in’ trend, especially with the risein North Laines are Neal’s Yard for herbal remedies, The Animal Household for stuffed toys, Air Born Kites forroad and rail vehicles in its collection representing public transport with the city and its suburban andwinning collections that are loved and toasted by so many inside the fashion industry year after year.The Karen see and continue to keep you entertained here, including:London Transport MuseumLondon Transport Museum has more than 80mentioned in London and Birmingham. You will also have plenty of opportunity to purchase some souvenirs asclothes on consignment as well as shop will sell it for you for a 50% commission.If feet are your fetish andmagazine editors as well as the who’s who from the fashion along with the glamour world. If you have not heard about theother clothes or accessories easily.Actually, wearing the gray check skirt will make you looks older than