Obama: Don’t Let Public Option Debate Overshadow Reform

Right on, johnny.

Barack Obama’s own words:
“I happen to be a supporter of a single payer universal health care plan”
And here’s the real hook:
“We may not get there immediately”
Those are his own words. No one is misquoting a thing. All legislation now is but a Trojan horse in the path to single payer.
Barack Obama has reneged on virtually all his campaign promises. One would have to be a fool to believe him now.

The President says there are five versions of a Health Reform bill in Congress. He won’t see any of them until they send him one to be signed. Since he has also not read any of them, it seems pretty arrogant of him to presume that he knows what I am concerned about and that my concerns are false. Only a fool would make claims about a contract one has never read or worse, sign that contract.

Some of the downside is exaggerated for sure, but some in HB3200 is also ominous, not to mention expensive. Obama is simply playing the political blame game at this point to move it forward. I for one am not fooled. The Washington ‘elite’ simply underestimated the American people. Rather telling if you take time to think it through.

There are too many rumors and myths regarding this plan. President Obama has addressed all of these during the townhall meetings he has attended. Watch them on C-Span or on the internet. Do yourself a favor and get the answers for yourself instead of believing ‘media spin’

WWW:”I think there are MANY people who are confused.”
Hooray for you. That’s your opinion based on no evidence whatsoever apart from a viral email, and evidently the president shares your opinion. That doesn’t make it a fact nor does “MANY” imply a majority. It’s called a straw man. Speaking about a straw man as if it is accepted fact by definition is a prime example of arrogance.
I’ve read HR 3200 as posted on the Congressional website and there are plenty of attributes to this massive restructuring of our health care system that I don’t like. It’s too draconian. Why can’t Congress do it’s job, which is to regulate business, not take it over? As I mentioned Congress can begin to “reform” the health insurance industry tomorrow if they so choose.

“Do yourself a favor and get the answers for yourself instead of believing ‘media spin’”
Barack Obama has been anything except honest. He lied about signing statements, lobbyists in his adminstration, earmarks, posting bills for inspection, closed door negotiations, and on and on.
He wants single payer, and this is all a trojan horse for that goal. Democrats mean to destroy the insurance industry. Jan Schakowski said so.
Then who’s next?
Pay no attention to what Obama says now. His statements now are as meaningless as his campaign promises.
Obama and the Democrats refuse be part of this plan and that’s the single best reason in the world to oppose it.

I NOTICE IN THE LATEST PIECE OF OBAMA GOBBLEDEGOOK, HE DOES NOT MENTION RATIONING AS ONE OF HIS OPPONENT’S “MYTHS.” “DEATH PANELS” IS BUT A REALISTIC TERM FOR THOSE WHO WILL MAKE THE GO, NO GO DECISIONS ON WHO WILL GET THE CARE AND WHO WILL NOT – “CERTAINLY” NOT THE DOCTORS AND THEIR PATIENTS. NATIONAL HEALTH CARE IS A VERY BAD IDEA FROM ANY WAY YOU LOOK AT IT. AS IN THE CASH FOR CLUNKERS PROGRAM IN WHICH MANY DEALERSHIPS ARE BAILING OUT EARLY BECAUSE OF NON PAYMENT, THE PHRASE “PRIOR PROPER PLANNING PREVENTS P..SS, POOR PERFORMANCE” WOULD BE THE UNDERSTATEMENT OF ANY ATTEMPT AT NATYIONAL CARE. DUH.

“The President says there are five versions of a Health Reform bill in Congress. He won’t see any of them until they send him one to be signed. Since he has also not read any of them, it seems pretty arrogant of him to presume that he knows what I am concerned about and that my concerns are false. Only a fool would make claims about a contract one has never read or worse, sign that contract.”
It isn’t true that Obama hasn’t read the bills.
That rumor started when the President was responding to a request for a comment about a false claim that appeared in Investor’s Business Daily. They claimed that the bill would make individual private medical insurance illegal. Obama responded, “You know, I have to say that I am not familiar with the provision you’re talking about.”
From there, a number of outlets twisted the quote to imply that the President hasn’t read the bill. The rumor has been spread by Lying Limbaugh and the Fine Folks at Fox, among others.

EIGHTY SOME PERCENT OF OF US ARE SATISFIED WITH OUR CURRENT SYSTEM. THAT A PRETTY HIGH PERCENTAGE FOR A SYSTEM THAT IS A “FAILURE.” YOU DON”T TRASH A CAR WITH A BAD ALTERNATOR – YOU REPLACE THE ALTERNATOR. CURRENT SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE IMPROVED – CERTAINLY, BUT YOU DON”T REPLACE IT WITH A WHOLE OTHER SYSTEM – ESPECIALLY ONE WHICH WOULD BE A DISASTER ON ALL FRONTS. A truck driver from Cleveland – not a fatcat ins exec.

Manitu – obviously you have not read the bill, or been paying attention…replacing the alternator (great analogy btw) is exactly what the bill proposes….
The current system is NOT being replaced, so you should be very pleased when the bill passes this Fall….

“That’s your opinion based on no evidence whatsoever apart from a viral email, and evidently the president shares your opinion. That doesn’t make it a fact nor does “MANY” imply a majority.”
I don’t know if it’s a majority or not, but no doubt MANY are confused. Just reading blogs or comments from some of Sarah Paliln’s 800,000 Facebook friends tells me that.

“DEATH PANELS” IS BUT A REALISTIC TERM FOR THOSE WHO WILL MAKE THE GO, NO GO DECISIONS ON WHO WILL GET THE CARE AND WHO WILL NOT ”
ummm, this is a very accurate description of what Insurance Companies do today…is it not? they ration care based on ability to pay. this is FACT.

my question: is there a provision in this bill to provide government workers to fill out all the paperwork necessary while we are in the waiting rooms bleeding? we know how the government does things. for example, is there anyone out there who cant see the logic and simplicity of a tax code that could be based either on a flat rate or a percentage……period? we need to hire professionals to fill out our tax forms for us. i saw a woman ask obama how private healthcare insurers could compete with the government while the federal operations dont have to pay property taxes, income taxes, and dont have the same restrictions in place. obama cited how well UPS and FED EX are doing against the post office. then i read obamas mind at that moment. you could see on his face he was thinking, (oops, did i just tell the people that the post office cant even compete with private companies when we stack the cards in its favor???) the government cant even control the cash for clunkers program….. its freeeeeeeee money for the government! all they have to do is give it away. free in that they just keep borrowing from the chinese on our behalves, just like they will have to do with the government run health care system. if this health care bill goes through, the few in this country, (11 million) who arent *eligible* for govenrment health care already will be covered, but we lose far more. we lose our independence and sense of personal responsibility, and we may owe our souls to the chinese. we need to fix health care in order to cover these people, we dont need another form of government unless it is the change that we all hoped for, a government that quits searching for places to waste china’s money. placing us further and further in debt til we are forced to open our eyes and see finacial holocost.

“EIGHTY SOME PERCENT OF OF US ARE SATISFIED WITH OUR CURRENT SYSTEM.”
I’m not so sure about that. Earlier this month, a Marist poll asked, “Do you think the current health care system in this country needs major changes, minor changes, or no changes at all?”
Major Changes: 65%
Minor Changes: 29%
No Changes at all: 6%

To James L. . There are the payers (example, Insurance companies) and the providers (examples, Doctors Hospitals). Malpractice generally involves the providers. Most of the health care providers are not government are not arms of the government and can be sued. Since the trail lawyers are big financial supporters of the Democrats (and are lawyers like much of congress) there is no provision to reduce health care provision costs by capping malprractice awards.

When will the President and his entrenched allies get it? The Majority of Americans want Health Care Reform and They Want Health Care Costs control. (here is a hint you do that by controlling the COST of Health Care) They Do Not want this Horrifically Overprice Insurance Scam likely to cost a Trillion or more a year that he is Pushing! So far in the last 2 weeks I have seen them call those of us who Don’t agree with him “Victims of Mob Think” and
“Un-American”
Yesterday he accused the Republicans of a conspiracy to sabotage him ( he has the largest party majority enjoyed by any sitting president but the “Vast Right Wing Conspiracy is back Huh!)He calls for “Honest Debate on Health Care,and don’t Be fooled by “Misconceptions” At the same time our elected Democratic Senators hide from us refusing to face the questions or hear the opinions of those who elected them (Hodes, Shea-Porter and Shaheen)
It is rare that I find myself in agreement with Republicans on Health Care But I guess even a broken clock is correct twice a day, It is time to scrap the mess the President has made and is calling Health Care Reform. He has at least 3 more years in office and if he stops trying to defend this mess perhaps he and his colleagues can come up with something cost effective and acceptable

“THE BIGGER THE GOVERNMENT GROWS – THE SMALLER THE INDIVIDUAL BECOMES.” SPOT ON AND HISTORICALLY ACCURATE. JUST WORDS TO LIBERALS – UNTIL THEY GET SCREWED ALSO.

“Or do you consider their “more tax cuts, worked great under Bush!” option a good reform for insurance?”
Pointing the finger at insurance companies is simply ignorant. Insurance companies do the bidding of the person or company who engages the services of the insurance company.
That entity contracts with the insurance company to provide a defined set of benefits. You people talk of the insurance industry as though it’s out there on its own dominating everything.
It’s totally ignorant.

Currently, Americans spend TWICE as much per person on healthcare compared to every other first world nation. Currently, American’s life expectancy is the same or lower. You can cherry pick a few areas we get better outcomes, but also areas we get worse – our health care is not twice as good as somewhere like France (which did the first in the world hand transplant, and first face transplant for example).
IF AMERICA SPENT THE SAME PER PERSON ON HEALTHCARE AS ALL OTHER FIRST WORLD NATIONS, WE WOULD SAVE $1 TRILLION DOLLARS EVERY YEAR – ENOUGH TO KEEP MEDICARE SOLVENT FOREVER, ELIMINATE THE DEFICIT, BECOME COMPETITIVE IN GLOBAL MANUFACTURING, AND PAY OFF THE DEBT…

Sadly, our President is the biggest myth of modern times. This charlatan, who creates “crises” to demagogue his way to power, has painted American health care as a total disaster, and yet 68% of the folks say they are satisfied. The problem is cost, as it is with every other country, but our multi-trillion dollar proposal doesn’t even deal with that. It only destroys the system and redistributes the cost. God bless the Americans who are not standing for it.

jhw
If you don’t like the way insurance companies are run then start your own!
Start the “Liberal Democrat Insurance Company”! Charge what you want, eliminate the “pre-existing conditions” thing.
Show us all how it’s done!
For once whay don’t you liberals create something and show us all the best way instead of always wanting to take from everyone else???
Let’s see how long you stay in business.

THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF REASONABLE SUGGESTIONS BY REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS SUCH AS TORT REFORM,ALLOWING THE OBTAINING OF INS POLICIES ACROSS STATE LINES AND PROVIDING PROGRAMS FOR THOSE WHO ARE EITHER UNINSURED OR UNDERINSURED. HIT A BRICK WALL WITH THE DEMS (SOME) WHO ARE HELL BENT ON A NATIONAL INS PLAN.

To those thick headed people who still believe that abortion for all is in the health care bill and that there is a death panel and that all immigrants will be covered and that the president wants to give coverage to only a select few……NOTHING..NOTHING…anyone can say will change your mind because you WANT IT TO BE THAT SO YOU CAN COMPLAIN MORE. What a sick society we have when you choose to believe what is not true.
You see, by believeing it you will have to give Obama some credit and that is not in your agenda. I feel sorry for you because he has been the only president brave enough to tackle this enormous task of health care for all. And to those of you who are on cobra..it is for a limited time so what will you do when it ends I know blame Obama. Did Bush and republicans try to do this…..NO!

“We’ve all heard the charge that reform will somehow bring about a government takeover of health care,” he said. “I know that sounds scary to many folks. It sounds scary to me, too. But here’s the thing: It’s not true.”
Oh yes it is. After I read HR 3200, the Health Care Bill passed by the House, there is no doubt in my mind that this bill will result in a government run health care system and that this particular medicine is far worse than the current malady of rising health care costs and the chronic uninsured. I believe the American people feel the same way and have reacted against an overbearing, over taxing and over reaching Big Brother form of government. Our freedom and our liberty are at stake, we know it and we have let our represenatives know it at town halls all over the nation. I’m getting a little bit tired of President Obama’s outright lies. This bill is a disater of monumental proportions. Join the 2nd American Revolution, take our country back and restore ‘We the People’ as the ultimate authority.

Given the liberal point of view of how bad our government is, why are they now clamoring for it to provide health care?
The federal government has never been accused of running anything efficiently or well. You don’t have to dig very deep to find evidence of waste, fraud and corruption in federally run programs and services.
I believe most who oppose the feds getting heavily invested in the health care system do so because of the history of how badly the feds mess things up whenever they get involved.

“Oddly enough, when he had his butt operated on last year he called it, “A personal voyage through the nightmare that is our healthcare system.”
I don’t care what Beck says, but he didn’t exactly run to Canada or England for care, did he?

Voice your concern together as a group. Why all the yelling. Yelling and screaming at town halls won’t help. Choose a spokesperson and ban together. The President will listen. This health care bill will not be perfect and it will not please everyone.
Look back and see why this country is in so much debt? Then may be you can begin to move forward.
Yes, I have confidence in my President.

There has to be a better way about getting health care to everyone…We need reform not a take over by the government. There will not be enough doctors to work with everyone. And some test that you may need will take time and the government will be saying weather you get it or not,If you believe that you will not be effected by government take over then you really do need to read the bill they are shoving down our throats.

Posting surveys showing a majority satisfied with their health care is disingenuous at best. A more appropriate measure is to ask those with serious illness whether they are satisfied with the services they get under the present system.

Jhw539 wrote: “Americans spend TWICE as much per person on healthcare compared to every other first world nation.”
Sweden–with a population of about 9 million people–is one of the most liberal welfare states. However, everyone–INCLUDING THE POOR–pay at least 31% in income taxes (state & local) AND pay the national value-added tax of 25% on almost all goods and most services. THAT’S how they are able to provide “FREE” healthcare to everyone!
Here in the United States the bottom 40% of the nation’s wage earners pay NO federal income tax. In fact according to the IRS’ latest data (2007), the bottom 50% of the nation’s wage earners–those making less than $32,261, with an average federal income tax rate of 2.99%–account for 2.89% of the total federal income tax revenue.

“Look back and see why this country is in so much debt? Then may be you can begin to move forward.”
Look forward? Obama’s solution to “so much debt” is to double the national debt in ten years. He is fixing spending by quadrupling the deficit.
Yeah, that’s really some wonderful kind of solution.
Have faith indeed. You’re going to need it. You best start praying now. When the dollar collapses from insolvency the world will change.

Manitu says “THE BIGGER THE GOVERNMENT GROWS – THE SMALLER THE INDIVIDUAL BECOMES.” “————————————–
Turn off the caps it’s electronic screaming – which is never helpful. I disagree your claims are true in this country or any other. You are aquaitng programs that help people with a government takeover. Unemployment compensation, Social Security, Medicare, etc. are all social programs that, I don’t see any evidence of, making the individual less effective. Bringing people up is not bringing people down. Frankly, I would be more concerned with the abuse of powers demonstrated by Nixon, Bush and others as being more of a threat to our freedom. When governments take over – it is not by adding programs that help the populace. It is by isolating them and RESTRICTING their flow of INFORMATION. As a matter of fact it is a lot easier when people are kept poor, uneducated, and needing health care for a unscrupulous government to stepin and take over. As a history major I would be interested in your example of where adding social programs that improve their life, is a sign of government take-over.

So BO wee weed used his weekly ABC promoted infomercial to outline HIS “phony claims” in an attempt to divide the opposition to his non-existent Socialist Health Care Plan.. being created by Pelosi and Reid….

“One thing is for sure, if things aren’t SPECIFICALLY spelled out in a bill, they can’t be counted upon. For instance, right now there is nothing PROHIBITING federal funds (our tax dollars) from funding abortions. Until it specifically spells out that they can’t be, then one can assume that it is allowable.”
Cool! I was just saying the other day how I want Tinkerbell as my consulting physician. This bill will allow that to happen! Everyone, CLAP if you believe in fairies!

“Pithy rejoinder.”
Is that anything like wee-wee’d?

BO wee weeds misinformation and “outrageous myths” about the American Public attending Town Hall meetings who disagree with him are fueling the opposition to his Socialist Health Care Plan

BO wee weeds “dishonest debate” dominated by willful misrepresentations and outright distortions spread by his internet army and union thugs are mobilizing the opposition to BO’s Socialist Health Care Plan

Its agreed that people want to see some changes in healthcare. If Obama wants to make changes, he should start small and pay for the changes with money the U.S. has instead of borrowing money to do it. If that means other areas receiving money has to be sacrificed, then so be it. Let’s face it, the money their talking about spending is the scariest part of all.

Liz
Real greed is wanting the wealth of others spread around rather than working for one’s self.
Greed is demanding the same result and not making the same effort.
Greed is wanting everyone else to pay for you.
That’s greed.

reprovemedia | Aug 22, 2009 10:09:53 AM —- “Dishonest debate” You mean like the lies of “death panels” “illegals” getting health care, forced Abortions? Those lies told by the Republicans?

You mean like the lies of “death panels” “illegals” getting health care, forced Abortions? Those lies told by the Republicans?
..and those liberal columnists (i.e. Paglia) in the media who came around to Sarah Palin’s position as well as other “Republican” positions. Take your ideological blinders off, read the bill and understand the whole debate..sheesh.

Those of you who think health care should be reformed and cost less- what are you willing to give up to lower costs?
Are you willing to strictly ration care for yourselves and your families?

I agree with the President: debate over the public option shouldn’t overshadow reform. A 10 TRILLION dollar deficit, however, ought to overshadow everything else.
Excising all the pork out of the so called stimulus package would be a big down payment, and might even restore the public’s faith in the fiscal sanity of this administration and this Congress. We’ve got a long way to go yet out of this recession. What’s going to happen if we have thousands of bridges to nowhere and no more money for food stamps and unemployment.

Don’t Be Deterred by BO’s ‘Phony Claims’….. BO’ wee weeds health care reform Internet army and Unions thugs spreading “outrageous myths ” to distort opposition to BO’s Socialist Health Care Plan

drjohn | Aug 22, 2009 10:21:17 AM — It isn’t true, the only place it is fact is in your head. It’s called living wills, they have existed for over 20 yrs, all the bill says is, if Dr discuss this with their patients they will be reimbursed! It’s not hard!

Government by the people, for the people! More Americans are now against ObamaCare than for anything to do with it! With the lies that are being told, trust has been violated. Especially senior citizens are against the bill H.R. 3200. They are scared because of the fear that is being instilled in them from the White House. And I wonder why, being called mobs, un-American, by the speaker of the house.

phony claims…? why is planed parenthood and numerous Latino org. endorsing this health plan….LOL….phony claims…I never scene a president lie as bad as this and not hide it. Him and Bagdad Bob, I.E Robert Gibbs

“phony claims”…. When a constituaent brings the Bill and cite word for word a passage, and the representative responds that is not in the Bill because he supports a different Bill in committee, then who is being deceptive? This was my experience and I asked why he voted for House Bill 3200 the response is that there are many amendments and proposals and he won’t vote again for the existing Bill. So much for this Presidents cries of “phony claims”. If this Bill were a drug it would have to have a warning label” side effects are many and none and subject to change!”

“Coding up” is wrong and I don’t advocate that at all. But I can understand why for profit hospitals are tempted to do it. The government says hospitals can’t turn patients away just because they can’t pay for services. Hospitals eat the costs or file against Medicare and Medicaid and you know what our government reimburses these organizations for services provided? Around 38 cents on the dollar if their lucky.

THE TRUTH will scare the daylights out of any American-Obama is after total control of the people and does not really give a hoot about the health of the people in general. Obama is a disciple of Sal Alinsky and his book “Rules For Radicals.” The Dems and of course, Obama, Pelosi and Reid are about as communistic as any group on earth and only seek to reduce your American freedoms under the “Elitist Mandate” from Washington. Please do not be fooled and join the rebellion and fight against those who seek to destroy our freedoms and the media who aides them in this Marxist Quest-Stand up Americans and demand your freedom from tyranny by denouncing those who seek to put you in their stalags if you disagree with their alleged Marxist wisdom. Understand that the Unions are heavily involved in taking your tax money for themselves and then telling you what to do even if you do not belong to their regime of control.

The wacky left-wing folks here are funny..they have selective amnesia when it comes to a few basic facts:
House
Dems. – 256 seats
Rep. – 177 seats
Senate
Dems – 60 seats + Lieberman
Rep. – 39 seats
White House
President Barack Obama, Democrat
Okay, so whose standing in the way of progress here when Republicans aren’t needed for the passage of anything? What is it about basic math here that some of the wacky left folks don’t understand?

BH | Aug 22, 2009 10:29:49 AM — That’s total bull. The New York Times scoured the nation hard for a vilian and found a single, wacky fringe group with no real influence or money to speak of and hitched their wagon to it. Predictably the left buys this nonsense and runs wild with it as if it’s a Soros equivalent—— No it’s fact. Go to recess rally . com, they are the ones recruiting this “grass roots” effort, scroll down and see exactly who is supporting this! As for the “fringe” group the largest privatly owned oil company in the US is part of it! Rich Scott’s group owns 100′s of hospitals, they are known for going into a city, buying up hospitals then closing many of them, DO YOUR RESEARCH BEFORE YOU COMMENT!

Obama cannot accept the facts.
The majority of Americans do not believe him or trust him.
It is his fault because of all of the flip flops, outright lies, mixed messages from him and mouthpieces.
His whole campaign was based on a lie, pretending to be something that he wasn’t–qualified, a moderate, bipartisan.
He’s already a lame duck president.
He has no credibility left.
From now on anything Obama says will be met with doubt–he has told too many lies.

Phony Claims! Did he accidentally read White House press releases?

Try the truth wrote: “It’s called living wills, they have existed for over 20 yrs, all the bill says is, if Dr discuss this with their patients they will be reimbursed! It’s not hard!”
Doctors can give their professional advice regarding medical procedures and risk-rewards–they do that already, and get paid for it. However, I object to ANY doctor giving any financial advice; and object even more strongly to them being paid for that financial advice. THAT should be left up to attorneys and legal aids.

Hey BO…… your attempt to shut up the opposition with your myths and distortions of the truth just wont work… no matter how nasty your union thugs and internet army gets…. the bottom line IS that YOU WILL drive insurance companies out of business… that is YOUR plan and the plan of your socialist supporters Pelosi and Reid….

clay7417 – Private hospitals turn people away every day! What was interesting in this case was, they didn’t do it for Medicaid patients, just Medicare, higher payout!

re:”The Death Panels”
The absolutely over the top phrase refers not to end of life counseling, but about cost-saving rationing discussions.
The NYT yesterday:
“The zeal for cutting health costs, combined with proposals to compare the effectiveness of various treatments and to counsel seniors on end-of-life care, may explain why some people think the legislation is about rationing, which could affect access to the most expensive services in the final months of life. ”
Obama could address this. Other countries (and insurance companies!) definitely do have measures they use to determine cost:benefit in deciding whether to cover care (QALYs). Instead of deciding to talk about this issue honestly and in detail (he started to, in April. He hinted at it during the ABC forum. Since then, he has been avoiding it) he has chosen to dismiss anyone who wonders about government rationing as a liar.
He has the ability to empathize and explain. He, for whatever reason, has chosen instead to speak in generalities about what he wants, while sniping at those who disagree with them. It isn’t attractive, and I think this vacation will do him good.

Okay, so whose standing in the way of progress here when Republicans aren’t needed for the passage of anything? What is it about basic math here that some of the wacky left folks don’t understand?
Posted by: BH | Aug 22, 2009 10:37:52 AM
***
This is a disingenuous argument to me. When someone wants to pass a bipartisan bill, they rightly look across the aisle for good ideas, not just partisan ones, and good arguments, not just partisan ones– and something beyond the parroting of ideology and repeated debunked misinterpretations from Betsy McCaughey’s playbook. Citing the number of Repubs and Dems in the House and Senate is totally beside the point. The House bill will pass in the House. No problem. The issue is the Senate– where two Senators are ill, and yes there are some Senators who represent more conservative districts with constitutents who have been fed ginned up untruths. But even that doesn’t get at the heart of the issue.
The President is looking to work across the aisle. Hence, the Republicans CAN hold things up by not looking for bipartisan solutions that could work. Most of them are inflexible, IMO — and a lot of the stuff they pull is par for the course.
We may pass a bill, again, without any good Republican input or support, beyond that offered by a few genuinely bipartisan, moderate Republicans who are willing to get messy– but stop with the misguided argument that a bipartisan bill can get passed without the help of Republicans. That kinda misses the point, no?

Six months ago today (February 22), Mr. Obama promised to cut the deficit in half by the end of his first term.

Barack Obama and the Democrats had a chance to show you what they are made of with that “stimulus” garbage package.
It is a complete failure. It stimulates nothing besides re-election for Democrats.
This is not the gang you want to trust with your life.

A phone call that may soon happen…
INSURANCE COMPANY: Hello Mr. President! Yes, sir, we welcome your shiny, new health care overhaul with open arms. As a result of being forced to accept consumers with pre-existing conditions we are forced to raise all our premiums 8-12% annually to mitigate the additional risks. This should lead to an exceptional return for our shareholders. What’s that you say? A government run option is directly competing against us too? Uh, Mr. President we’ll soon be announcing that we’ll be winding down all of our business activities and will be filing for Chapter 11. Yes, sir, I do realize how many of your constituents are employed by our organization..but… Oh yes, I know you promised choice too, but we simply can’t compete with FreddieCare and FannieCare, take on the additional risks and remain a going concern. Yes, sir, I’m sure you’ll do your best. Best wishes to you running the National HMO.
This isn’t rocket science folks.

How can you expect Republican support for anything when it was a Republican Congressman-doctor who co-proposed the end-of-life consultations and it was broadly supported by both sides as a separate bill before the health care bills were crafted. But now that it’s part of health care reform and ignoramus Palin wrongly used the phrase “death panels”, the GOP won’t support it any more. How can one listen seriously to Sen. DeMint when he’s accepted $212K from the insurance industry and $236K from the health industry – since 2005! The same for MANy others who have been bought and sold. How is it possible to take the GOP seriously?

Alyson: but stop with the misguided argument that a bipartisan bill can get passed without the help of Republicans. That kinda misses the point, no?
====
Who is making the argument that a *bipartisan* bill can get passed without the help of Republicans?
A bill could theoretically get passed without the help of Republicans. The problem is, there are too many Democrats who disagree with each other.
Now, you can ask yourself why the President is saying he wants a bipartisan bill.
Is it because he thinks that is what will produce the best bill?
Is it because he is trying to hide the fact that his party can’t agree by saying he’s holding out for bipartisan support?
Is it because Pew reports show people like him more when he’s looking bipartisan?

First, housing became a “fundamental right”.. we all know where that policy got us. This time, it’s health care.
When the money for subsidies run out, as they surely will, huge numbers of people will be left no better off than they were before..and many of us will be worse off because our system of private insurance will be changed forever. The only false claims in this argument are those promises made by Obama.

“This is a disingenuous argument to me. When someone wants to pass a bipartisan bill, they rightly look across the aisle for good ideas, not just partisan ones, and good arguments, not just partisan ones– and something beyond the parroting of ideology and repeated debunked misinterpretations from Betsy McCaughey’s playbook.”
Wait a minute, NOW you want bipartisanship? Yeah, right. Allyson, please cite for me which Republican ideas you embrace on this issue here.
The fact of the matter is that despite having 80 more votes in the House and a filibuster proof majority in the Senate, the Dems. simply don’t have the votes to cram this through. What you do think that mad scramble to vote this through before the Aug. recess was all about? Bipartisanship? Please.

Obama is the phony one.

For those of you that are new to Obama’s rhetoric, what he’s really saying is: “Take another swig of my Kool-aid, and it’ll make ignoring common sense much easier.”
Sorry, Obama, but this one is going DOWN!! Time to find another hook upon which to hang your liberal hat.

There has always been a faction of the DEMs that has advocated expedited death for the elderly. Three-term DEM Governor of Colorado Richard Lamm was the point man for this faction in the 80s. I was active in the DEM party until the 2nd Clinton term, so I know what some in the party want (I still hear it at my local union meetings). Lamm’s ideas that the elderly have a “duty to die” and that they ought to be denied certain end-of-life treatment in order to save money and lower costs have a 25-year history in the party. Why don’t the media investigate that history, Jake?
P.S. I believe Lamm is still alive and at age 75 still not taking his own advice,

Speaking of phony claims how about cap and tax?
Professor Richard Lindzen of MIT has published a paper which proves that IPCC models are overstating by 6 times, the relevance of CO2 in Earth’s Atmosphere. Dr. Lindzen has found that heat is radiated out in to space at a far higher rate than any modeling system to date can account for. His paper is arguably the most important ever to be published on “global warming” it plots real-world changes in outgoing long-wave radiation, as measured by the ERBE satellite system against real-world changes in global mean surface temperature.
The mark of leadership is to admit when it is wrong and move quickly to correct the error. Will Mr. Obama refuse to sign cap and tax should it make it to his desk?
If he signs it we will know the true meaning of phony claims!

American Infidel | Aug 22, 2009 10:53:08 AM – Oh dear, the cash for clunkers was a success! Are you talking about the dealers getting their checks? Well guess what, the Obama administration, unlike the previous is actually making sure the claims from dealers are valid! That’s called being responsible! Unlike, here’s checks to bail you out banks and guess what?! We’re not going to track what you do with the money! That’s your ex President!

“I watched and what a fool she made of herself! I have finally come to the conclusion, many of these people don’t actually believe what they write, but have to come out against anything the President attempts to do! They are party first and don’t give a fig about the country!”
I agree. McCaughey has said, “The Congress would make it mandatory … that every five years, people in Medicare have a required counseling session that will tell them how to end their life sooner, how to decline nutrition, how to decline being hydrated, how to go into hospice care … all to do what’s in society’s best interest … and cut your life short.”
I double dog dare those people who support Palin/McCaughey to explain what part of the bill supports those loony claims.

Why is obama so down on private enterprise such as the insurance companies? What is wrong with not allowing pre-existing conditions? They are INSURERS, not public welfare agencies.. Maybe we should be allowed to purchase car insurance & file a claim AFTER we have an accident. Maybe we should be allowed to purchase home insurance and file a claim AFTER our house burns down. Maybe we should be able to purchase life insurance and file a claim (put it in our wills) AFTER we die.. after all, aren’t these the same concepts as health insurance??? This guy is an idiot and so are the elite snobs he surrounds himself with.

This has so little to do with health. Its all part of the vote securing scheme. Who will benefit the most? Those who are too lasy to work, cant find work, dont look for work. The largest block of his voter base. Another 12% of the people elect not to pay for insurance because they are healthy and choose to spend their money elsewhere, like cash for clunkers. Fix the small part that doesnt work, leave the rest alone, deregulate the insurance companies. Most of the lies are coming from the Obama administration and Nancy Botox. Every republican input is discarded without debate. Thats bipartisan to Obama.

The main thing that I’m noticing as I’m reading these comments, is that no one really can say for certain what is and is not in this bill. And for those who have actually read the whole bill, it seems that it is open to interpretation, which is just scary. If the American people cannot completely decipher and decode this bill in a concrete manner, what makes any of us think that our government can do it? They apparently cannot even add 2+2 or keep their lies straight, let alone be left to interpret a bill that is in charge of our health, which literally IS a life or death situation. For all we know, Obama could step in dog crap on his way to work one morning, and because he’s ticked off about that, he decides that everyone who needs medical treatment that day is denied. It sounds far-fetched, but to me, that’s how vague and sketchy this bill really is. And I don’t trust anyone in the government enough to let them interpret it for me.

Phoney like AARP endorses this BILL phoney? Or like promoting a BILL no one has ever seen since he didnt write any of them. WHAT imaginary BILL is Obama pushing? Obama is the poster child for Phoney.

Aaron – You’re right too!!
The Constitution was written by people who distrusted the Government, and thereby tried to dissuade us from ever “trusting” the Government.
But here we are, with apparently millions of Americans more than willing to turn over their health… no, their independence to the Government. Kind of like moving back in with you parents, and expecting them to take care of you again.
What ever happened to RESPONSIBILITY??
I guess I’m old fashioned, and I need to start practicing my begging for freebies. It appears to work, at least with THIS Administration.

To laughing all the way. they do this in the VA hospitals. When you feel depresses you could make anyone talk you into alot of things if you think its better for you. They could make you feel bad example. dont you know how much this is costing you family. That why you hear horror stories that son and daughters are staeling from thier parents. The thing is the govt could say you wanted to do this and once you die you cant come back to say i didnt say that its to late. Remember they could put alot of fine print in what your saying . Not that people shouldnt discuss this but its mantory and a govt agent comes to your house with you alone you dont go to them with your family members. I was in a plan like the govt wants us in remember HMO its was great for young health people scary and a death trap for the sick and old thats why i got out

Where did all the anti-Patriot Act crazies go? Remember how the Patriot Act was going to lead to the destruction of all personal freedoms and privacy?
Now when this massive health care reform push rolls around with the potential of giving the govt. unfettered access to every intimate detail of their personal lives, these same folks say: Eh, no biggie.

The time has come to lift our level of consciousness at least one notch, as we have found out outrageous amounts of money to finance wars from here to Timbuktu, it is time to find a decent amount of money to provide health care for those that have non.
It is the time to become compassionate and adopt a health reform that provides a medical coverage for those that are despondent in America, which by the way, are many, but some of us don’t want to acknowledge it, we just look the other way… the view is better.
This is a battle between the have and the have-nots, between the greed of the powerful who will never be satisfied and those that have a deteriorating health and no medical insurance. Between those that are content and in the “immortal phase” of their lives, and the “the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”
Everything on this planet atrophies withers and eventually dies. We really owe nothing; we can not even cling to our own bodies they are on lease. We just use and/or consume thing for a small period of time, the blink of an eye, then we disappear, what is left is the good or not so good impressions by which we will be remembered.
Who was it that say “you reap what you saw”? Be compassionate extend your open hand, you won’t regret it will multiplied a ten-fold… guaranteed!

The White House hired a private communications company based in Minnesota to distribute mass e-mails, helping to shed light on how some recipients received e-mails in support of President Obama’s health care plan without signing up for them, FOX News has learned.
The company, Govdelivery, describes itself as the world’s leading provider of government-to-citizen communication solutions and says its e-mail service provides a fully-automated on-demand public communication system.
The revelation comes after the White House acknowledged this week that people were receiving unsolicited e-mails from the administration about health care reform and suggested the problem was with third-party groups that placed the recipients’ names on the distribution list.
Govdelivery sent hundreds of e-mails from senior adviser David Axelrod asking supporters to help rebut criticism of Obama’s health care plan circulating on the Internet. It also sent e-mails highlighting Obama’s speech to the Muslim world in Cairo and the announcement of Sonia Sotomayor as a Supreme Court nominee.
FOX News viewers complained they received these e-mails even though they had never requested any communication from the White House.
Chris Hansen, a staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union told FOX News that if the White House used the private firm, it’s the same as if it had sent the e-mails.
On Monday, the White House implemented several new changes to its Web site, apparently aimed at reducing the number of people who receive unsolicited e-mails and at fighting charges that it’s collecting personal information on critics.
Govdelivery does extensive work with a bevy of federal, state, and local agencies, including 11 Cabinet-level departments such as Defense, State, and Justice. Among the tasks Govdelivery performs are FBI internal e-mails and external regional crime alerts, FEMA hurricane or other natural disaster alerts.
In fact, before Jan. 1, Govdelivery handled 85 percent of mass e-mail deliveries for federal agencies.
The White House said it hired Govdelivery based on its performance with those agencies. The company was hired after Jan. 1 but before Obama took office on Jan. 20, the White House said.
The White House notes that Govdelivery also handles mass e-mails for Texas Gov. Rick Perry and Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels, both Republicans.
The White House insists that Govdelivery aggregates nothing and plays no role in the formation of its e-mail list; it is merely an end-product e-mail distributor.
Earlier this week, Govdelivery’s president, Scott Burns, declined to comment to FOX News on whether the White House had used his firm to send out the Axelrod e-mails.

Posted by: BH | Aug 22, 2009 11:21:11 AM
Exactly. Pass it, pass it, go ahead and let the chips fall where they may. The sooner Obama and the Dems own these policies the better. America is waking up.

“One shutters to think where we would be if McCain/Palin had won. The recession would become a depression.”
We’d have gridlock and the crazies on both sides would be kept in check by each other. Think no stimulus, no cap and trade tax, and no health care reform. I’d be reading ESPN instead of this thread concerned that the liberal fringe was mortgaging my kid’s economic future and I’d be laughing at the Republican party for being as hypocritically inept as ever with no vision and no plan…all while I’m allowed to go on quietly with my life without having to look over my shoulder wondering if my lower middle class status isn’t about to vaporize in a sea of broken promises from Candidate, now President, Obama.

“None of this opposition is spontaneous, and none of it has anything to do with reality.”
Right it can’t be spontaneous because that would mean your wacky liberalism isn’t mainstream…even though polls reflect that only about 1/5 is liberal. Got it.

The deficits we are seeing today mean one thing to an absolute certainty: we are going to experience substantial inflation. No one can say when it will arise, but it will arise as surely as night follows day. This fact makes American debt instruments much less attractive, as the Chinese know all too well.

Marla Scott – You said “Republicans who are furious at having lost the last presidential election and idiot Dittoheads who think that Limbaugh is a journalist, not a paid “entertainer”, are behind most of the protests at these town hall meeting.”
I think you give the GOP far too much credit for being community organizers – that was Obama’s claim to fame, not the GOP.
You then asked “Why don’t these people who want the Government to get out of everything refuse to accept their social security checks or their Medicare?”
I would be HAPPY to give up my social security check AND my medicare benefits, just so long as I get a refund for every dollar I have invested in those programs, plus interest, for the past 40 years I’ve been investing! I would be MORE than just HAPPY to be able to invest those funds privately in support of my retirement.
Now, THAT’S a proposal I can CERTAINLY get behind!!!! Will your DEMOCRATS support that?????

Well, there’s your answer. If Obama says all of the claims and myths regarding healthcare are false, you can bet that they are all certainly…TRUE.

Maria Scott, why should we refuse to accept social security checks or Medicare? We were forced to pay into these programs all our lives, so we certainly are going to take advantage of the programs.
Now as for the current issue of healthcare insurance reform, we Conservatives are not against reform. We are however, against the federal government nationalizing the healthcare system. I said this before, and I will say it again, why don’t you Liberals create your own private non-profit healthcare insurance and compete with the for-profit healthcare insurance providers?

Laughing_All_The__Way | Aug 22, 2009 11:12:52 AM — As usual, not one iota of fact, just your opinion. Do you actually realize how that makes you look? Like the one drinking the Faux news kool aid!

“One shutters to think where we would be if McCain/Palin had won. The recession would become a depression. This whole mess can be laid at the door of the Lieing Bush administration.”
Countries like Germany which did not pass absurd “stimulus” packages are already pulling out of the recession. Doing nothing would have been preferable to what’s happened here. All that Obama’s spending has done is to add enormously to the debt with no useful results. We’re far more likely to fall into economic chaos because Obama continues to destroy the dollar.
McCain is not much different from Obama but we would have been much better off with him and Sarah. No one could have hurt this country more than Obama has.

: Lazy | Aug 22, 2009 12:01:05 PM—- Why don’t all you conservatives stop whining! You lost! You can say America is waking up all you want, they are and have! You had a good run with the lies but people are seeing what your really about! I have my MBA, own a business, pay health insurance 100% for my employees! The only people I see whining about not being able to take a vacation or do things are you guys! Sorry you didn’t have the good sense not to follow his spend directive after 9/11! Sorry you listened to Faux news and McCain and believed the economy was stable when all indicators pointed the other direction! Your in this place because of your own kool aid drinking follow and don’t question. I’m going to Greece for 2 weeks the beginning of Sept. you?

“This section MANDATES end of life consultations no less than every 5 years.”
What the heck are you reading????>

Rudy said: “I’m absolutely, positively certain there is no mandatory suicide counseling in that bill. Again, I double dog dare anyone to explain what wording in the bill can in any way be interpreted as mandatory suicide counseling for old folks”
First of all I didn’t say anything about “mandatory suicide” or anything of the sort. Second, you just proved the point I was trying to make in the first place, which is how a person feels about a certain subject or idea, then that’s usually how they will interpret what is being said. People who are against the bill interpret it a certain way and those who are for the bill interpret it a certain way. But the big question still remains…how will the government intepret it? And an even bigger question is, does anyone in their right mind REALLY want to take the chance and find out? That, to me, would be the dare to end all dares.

Try the truth – You said “The only people I see whining about not being able to take a vacation or do things are you guys!…. I’m going to Greece for 2 weeks the beginning of Sept. you?
Hey, you enjoy your 2 weeks in Europe!!
Oh, BTW, I’m an American LIVING in Europe – Heidelberg, Germany to be exact. Been here since 2007. Before that, I had been living in Tokyo, Japan since 1994.
Yeah, before you go there, I do still pay US income taxes on 100% of my income (there’s no foreign earned income exclusion on Federal wages).
So, brag all you want – DEMOCRAT!!
I bet you’ll come back and brag more on the outstanding socialized medical system they have in Greece… after all, after two weeks, you’ll be an EXPERT too!!!

-Watch the price of oil and the price of gold.-
And food and other goods. We are in uncharted waters here. The sad thing is that this could have been avoided. Easily. Get some silver too. Makes nice small change if you get my drift.

Croatian:”Hey, has anybody ever seen a verified and detailed breakdown of who comprise the 40 million, or 47 million, or 50 million (whatever this week’s figure du jour is) of “uninsured”? No? Me either.”
That is YOUR fault. Being ignorant of the publicly available and extensive factual data is hardly a good way to support your opinion.
Kaiser Family Foundation. “The Uninsured: A Primer.”
National Institute for Health Care Management Foundation. “Understanding the Uninsured: Tailoring Policy Solutions for Different Subpopulations.” Apr 2008.
Census Bureau “Survey of Income and Program Participation”
Census Bureau “Current Population Survey”

It comes down to who are you going to trust, which is a shame. I don’t trust the Obama administration because they have a track record of fast tracking bills with hidden agendas and pork buried in thousands of pages using dramatic language to frighten people. We have to save the world!!! Now!! They have worn that message out and they don’t seem to have another one.

Lazy | Aug 22, 2009 12:15:08 PM – Go to the vacation post on this site! Look, I don’t agree with everything President Obama does. I find it disconcerting that no matter what he does the Republicans twist it into something it is not! When one complained about Pres. Bush, you got labeled un American, a terrorist lover. Some Republicans think fear mongering and intimidation are the correct way to have a debate! Facts confuse them! Thanks, I will have fun, it’s my 3 rd trip there! I’ll break a plate for you!

Laughing_All_The__Way | Aug 22, 2009 12:16:06 PM — Well, good for you. I won’t be an expert, but I did take time to read the bill. I go by what is actually in it, not what I’ve heard or imagine. Sorry you don’t understand fact from fiction.

Liberals and conservatives and any other,
Why no one talk about price fixing which has been going on for ever in health business. If food industry practice similar pricing we would be paying 25 bucks for a loaf of bread by now. INvestigate PRice FIxing and LOwer All RAtes and PRices in HEalth BUsiness so we can call it healtcare again

jhw539 – Too bad you haven’t read the bill.
Section 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION
(a) MEDICARE.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—Section 1861 of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x) is amended—
(A) in subsection (s)(2)—
(i) by striking “and” at the end of subparagraph (DD);
(ii) by adding “and” at the end of subparagraph (EE); and
(iii) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph:
“(FF) advance care planning consultation (as defined in subsection (hhh)(1));”; and (B) by adding at the end the following new subsection:
“Advance Care Planning Consultation “(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last ****5 years***. Such consultation shall include the following:
“(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.
“(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.
“(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
“(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).
“(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.
And on and on…

i have seen areas of this bill that contradict other sections of the bill. the way these differences will be decided is in court. this is what they want. this will allow the bill to keep evolving. I have heard President obama say he wants a single payer system in 10-15 years down the road. Most of these so called inacuracies can be come true if or when the courts hear arguments, and they will
This is why this bill is so huge and complex. It leaves the door open in the future for all the negative things people are worried about. I don’t trust the government and he is the government.

When did liberals become so trusting of gov’t? This is like bizarro world or something.

When did liberals become so trusting of gov’t? This is like bizarro world or something.
Posted by: Natt |
November 2008

I agree with JHW539 in part, and disagree in part. The current legislation will not pass, and there are some people who do not understand it because they are too stupid. Many others, including some of it’s drafters and the president, do not understand it because of it’s sheer length and complexity.
And there is not a soul on earth who knows what it will cost, nor what its uninintended consequences will be. On the other hand, 90% of the populace is currently insured, and 80% of them understand that they are happy with their insurance and their health care.
Most people understand that there are aspects of the current system that should be reformed. That is a very far cry from concluding that this particular reform should be enacted. When the elites are reduced to saying that “we know what is best for you but you’re too stupid to realize it,” I believe my side is winning.

I am starting to believe that health care won’t be passed simply because most people are too stupid to understand it, but so arrogant they believe that must be the bill’s fault.
Posted by: jhw539 |
Would that be the left wing of the party or the blue dogs?

sena:”Why no one talk about price fixing which has been going on for ever in health business. ”
The quickest way to break price fixing is to introduce a competitor not in on the cartel. Hence the strong push for a public option – private insurance would have to eliminate price fixing to compete, and earn their profits through better efficiency than the public option, not defacto price fixing.

Foghorn:”I am starting to believe that health care won’t be passed simply because most people are too stupid to understand it, but so arrogant they believe that must be the bill’s fault.
Posted by: jhw539 |
Would that be the left wing of the party or the blue dogs?”
That would be every party that is arguing against the bill based on utter, repeatedly disproven lies. Can you cite blue dogs pushing utter lies? Fighting over the cost is a reasonable debate. Lying about death panels, gutting of medicare, a change in rationing, the success of national healthcare in every other first world nation, etc – those lies aren’t coming from blue dogs.
Read the fact checks folks – it’s not a scam. The Republicans are ‘debating’ with blatant lies – for example, death panels or the laughable claim the NHS “rationing board” would have let Stephen Hawking die. The Democrats are debating facts – for example, providing arguments to justify the expense.

-Is that your professional legal analysis? Or do you think professional lawyers aren’t important since OF COURSE laws are simple and can be figured out by anyone with no training or familiarity with technical formatting, precedent conventions, and legal terminology?
I suppose you do your own dental work, car repair, integrated circuit design, and often give farmers advice on the best crop rotations and fertilizer cycles to use too.-
Think about the argument you just made. What do laywers actually produce? Why would you want increasingly complex laws or policies even enacted or created?

Don’t Be Deterred by BO’s ‘Phony Claims’….. BO’ wee weeds health care reform Internet army and Unions thugs spreading “outrageous myths ” to distort opposition to BO’s Socialist Health Care Plan

-Can you cite blue dogs pushing utter lies? Fighting over the cost is a reasonable debate.-
Remind us again how much this will cost and how it will be paid for.

How about that…You and Ms. Pelosi don’t mind if some of your wealth goes to help middle class and poor Americans that currently do not have adequate access to medical treatment. What a way of life!
Now, if you two could only learn how to be “Entertainers” in this regard. Then, you could try to make people feel good about receiving health care.
How hard could that possibly be?
Nancy and I aren’t all that concerned with the little people. We try to stay away from them. They bring down real estate prices.

Republicans want to derail Obama. They could care less about what’s good for the country. Republican followers are easily manipulated and made afraid through the spread of rumors, lies and distortions. Lobbyists manipulate Republican leaders like puppets on string.

“When we say “the bill”– to what do we refer?”
Most everyone usually refers to HR 3200.

I see most of you are stuck on stupid. Playing the blame game between the D & R’s. So rapped up on trying to prove which side cares less that you are missing the real points. How much power are you willing to give to Washington and how much money are you willing to let them spend? When are you going to stop and take notice that are Government is out of control and all we do is play the blame game?

Providing arguments to justify the expense of a revenue neutral health insurance reform bill?
Saving by spending!

Republicans want to derail Obama.
***************************************
It seems to me that Obama is doing a good job of derailing himself, as is the Dem. Party.
Their performance has been sorely disappointing to me. They threw out the baby and left the bath water. Do not have to worry about a watered down bill, all it is going to be is water.

Sample Democrat debate….
Why be scared of a government health program? After all, “Medicare is a government program that works really well,” and if “we’re able to get something right like Medicare,” we should have more “confidence” about being able to do it for everyone.
On the other hand, Medicare is “unsustainable” and “running out of money.”
from the same speech by POTUS in Portsmouth, N.H.

That dream now belongs to the wealthy and the corporations – they own it all now – thanks to the Republicans!
Posted by: Sentinel |
Thank goodness that, with the Dems in power now, the wealthy and the corporations no longer have any control.

Lobbyists manipulate Republican leaders like puppets on string.
Posted by: Eric |
Thank goodness the lobbyists have no sway over the Dems.

Price fixing is a felony. Anyone with evidence that it is occurring should present it immediately to the US Attorney in the district where it is occurring.
If in fact the best way to counter price fixing is to introduce a competitor from outside the cartel (as opposed to imprisoning the price fixers), it does not follow at all that there should be just one new entrant, and certainly not that the one should be the government. Multiple new entrants would appear in every market tomorrow if the prohibitions against interstate sales of health insurance were lifted today.
It is fallacious to contend that the opposition to this legislation is simply a Republican phenomenon. Read the polls. Independents are against it too.

>>Most everyone usually refers to HR 3200.
========
>>Why? That will most likely not pass the House, the Senate, or come out of conference in tact.
Probably because that’s the version Sarah Palin suggested was the evil one that caused America’s “collective jaw” to drop. It’s also the version that Betsy McCaughey says has mandatory suicide counseling.

Y’know, the more I hear Obama explain his healthcare plan, the more I fear I’m gonna lose the good one that I have. How can private insurance companies compete with the Government who doesn’t care if it loses or gains $$ from their plan.

Probably because that’s the version Sarah Palin suggested was the evil one that caused America’s “collective jaw” to drop. It’s also the version that Betsy McCaughey says has mandatory suicide counseling.
========
So Sarah Palin and Betsy McCaughey are controlling the way the bill is being discussed?
How much power are people giving them?

Phony claims…this is all we get from the Obama administration. If we pass the stimulus, unemployment won’t rise above 8%…now it’s 9.4% and getting worse. The list goes on. ————Then yesterday at 5:10 pm (after the President leaves for yet another vacation), we find this out via Reuters… The Obama administration will raise its 10-year budget deficit projection to approximately $9 trillion from $7.108 trillion in a report next week, a senior administration official told Reuters on Friday. Wow, only off by 2 TRILLION DOLLARS. Can we fire the entire government? The administration and Congress would be a great start.

Daniel:There are those with legitimate concerns over the changes but the majority of loud vocal decent is coming from the Limbaugh Lemmings just repeating what they heard on radio talk shows.
========
If that is true, then the Democrats should have no problem passing a bill.

Well, I guess it is for the rich Republicans. They “Entertain” people right out of everything they have in life. You got to hand it to them…at least they try to make you feel good about it…as they stick it to you! What a way of life.
Ya said that already.

There is a question whether the congress has the power to require that an individual purchase health insurance or be fined. I don’t know how the Supreme Court would decide the question, but I do know that it would be litigated.
And that is apart from the question of whether such a provision is repugnant to self-respecting free men.

“So Sarah Palin and Betsy McCaughey are controlling the way the bill is being discussed?”
Unfortunately, when someone like Sarah Palin, who has been so much in the limelight, makes an outrageous statement about the President forming death panels to knock off old people and disabled babies, that’s huge news.

Unfortunately, when someone like Sarah Palin, who has been so much in the limelight, makes an outrageous statement about the President forming death panels to knock off old people and disabled babies, that’s huge news.
========
It’s news, but I’m not sure it’s huge news. But let’s say that it is…
who has a bigger platform? Obama or Palin? Who has more supporters? Who has more power? Who is a better communicator?

Obama keeps getting a free pass on his “illegal aliens are not covered” lie.
Illegal aliens can be covered because democrats refuse to ask for “citizenship” when applying for health care.
Democrats recently defeated the Heller amendment in the House Bill that would have enforced a citizenship requirement for health care benefits.
The reason we have 12 – 20 million illegal aliens here is because they refused to enforce our immigration laws and now they are attempting to make it even worse.
Also, Obama keeps repeating over and over again the need to provide insurance to the 46 million uninsured even though he also admits that the 46 million number includes illegal aliens.
Just more lies, trickery and deceit.

IN 1965 majority of REPULICANS VOTED AGAINST MEDICARE!

Obama is completely out of control, this government is not only scary but childish and stupid.

“IN 1965 majority of REPULICANS VOTED AGAINST MEDICARE!”
More and more I am hearing some desperate honesty from Republicans on this issue.
The objective has always been to kill Medicare and SS.

Posted by: MayBee | Aug 22, 2009 1:37:53 PM
I’m also trying to gauge just how fast the far-right posters try push it back without responding to it.
======
I haven’t responded, ErnestNM, because I’m not sure what you are saying.
Can you reword?
Posted by: MayBee | Aug 22, 2009 1:37:53 PM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You cute and clever “Entertainer”, you!

“It’s news, but I’m not sure it’s huge news.”
Oh, get real! Former VP candidates and cohorts don’t often accuse the President of the United States of wanting to kill off Americans, young and old.

Unlike many of you I actually like my government. Do we do everything right…no, but we sure do alot of things much better than anyone else. Should the government do everything for us …no, but where it can have programs to help us it should. The government runs Social Security. When was the last time that the checks were not sent out on time. I’ll tell you…never. The government runs Medicare and the VA very well. I think that they would do a good job of health care. At least we would not have to worry about being dropped from insurance due to a medical condition or not having coverage if we lose our jobs. Does anyone have any idea how outrageously expensive it is to get health coverage when you lose your job. Recently a friend, who carried the health insurance for for his family, lost his job. The company his wife works for is small and doesn’t offer health insurance. It will now cost him $942.00 a month for coverage. Try paying that with one less income. I guess he has a choice, don’t pay bills or don’t get health insurance. Wow some choice.
You all keep fighting against a government health care plan so that we can all be at the mercy of the “for profit” health insurance companies. I don’t know about you, but that’s who I want deciding my health care …those who will base their decisions on their profit margin and their dividend checks for their stockholders. If you think that health insurance companies care about your health over their profit margins then you a truly delusional.

Posted by: Phoenix lady | Aug 22, 2009 1:46:23 PM
I have the impression you are bucking to become a Third World nation of the “Haves” versus the “Have Nots”, where sick and injured people are just left of the streets to die uncared for. Republican Utopia.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Actually, Republican Utopia involves being a ‘First World’ “nation of the “Haves” versus the “Have Nots”, where sick and injured people are just left of the streets to die uncared for.”
It really depends on what your definition of “Third World”/’First World’ is.
For Republicans is has to do with absolute power and dominance over other human beings…and of course having all of the worlds wealth.
Money is the root of all good things to Republicans.
You see, when you have all the money (as they do right now) you can simply pay people to do your bidding and propagate the ‘Lying’, ‘Cheating’, and “Stealing’…as they are doing right now with Health Care Reform.

It’s a very effective tactic they use to push good arguments out of people’s sight.
Posted by: ErnestNM | Aug 22, 2009 1:33:39 PM
***
I agree. I checked back to see if BH had come up with any ideas he supports that could be characterized on this planet as flexible or bipartisan, or Democrat since he dared me to cite Republican ideas I’d support (missing the notion that I was talking about being bipartisan so the correct question would have been what bipartisan, moderate, nonpartisan ideas I support).
Look, I’ve had some very honest people tell me they just don’t want reform and neither do their senators. They want nothing to happen and they really don’t care if the levies break cuz, you know, only the “lazy” folks will suffer. Most of the people on here are never gonna get that true liberty comes from providing a safety net, a minimal form of security for all citizens and that security extends beyond the military. As Ron Reagan said, “Isn’t it funny how ‘left wing lunacy’ turns into reality in a few years?” –See Tom Ridge’s recent revelations.

“Recently a friend, who carried the health insurance for for his family, lost his job. The company his wife works for is small and doesn’t offer health insurance.”
“I am so sorry. But are they TRULY needy? Ronald Reagan.
She should have gotten a job where they offer it, or go fish

Its amazing that during this time of crisis, skyrocketing unemployment, the failure of the last bailout, the failure of cash for clunkers (leaving the government on the hook for an additional $3 billion ill-spent dollars, this nonsense about the government buying GM (which in turn produced no savings and yet to produce a car with decent milage) terrorists being freed and returning home to a heroes welcome that the President almost seems obsessed with this healthcare bill which would in turn siphon $1 Trillion from taxpayers pockets (just for starters) and could wreak havoc on the millions of people employed by the private healthcare system (leaving them possibly without a job). What do you think private healhcare companies will do when they cant compete? They will fire and lay people off thats what)! So the potential is there to cause great harm and further loss to the economy. The President seems not to care about the possible backlash. He only wants to get his hands on the $1 Trillion dollars for himself and the his lobbyist buddies in pharma and healthcare (like Cigna) who are poised to get the cushy government contracts should it somehow pass. This plan will only help 10% of the U.S. population at the expense of the other 90%! How is that a good plan? Remember people come to the USA as it is to get whatever their country doesnt offer already. Do they really need to get free healthcare too on top of welfare, medicaid, unemployment, charity care, tax breaks, etc etc? Oh yeah while the average unemployed person languishes over how they will pay their mortgage, pay their bills, feed and clothe their children – Obama slathers people buying new cars with money to take on even more debt instead. Then while we all suffer instead of putting in overtime to try and figure out an answer that would create instead of destroy more jobs (like force private companies to carry health insurance for employees here and more expensive health insurance and taxes for those working abroad – thus attempting to put an end to offshoring) you know this would be a way easier thing to do and wouldnt require this $1 Trillion dollar health bill – instead he bombards the media with partisan and blamey messages and religious guilt and gobbledeygook and at the same time goes on a lavish vacation! Its seems almost criminal.

Please remember that some of the greatest crimes against humanity were perpetrated in the name of ‘national socialism’.

Obama is simply not believable.
He played everyone for suckers.
Not the suckers that believed he was a Messiah–they are hopeless.
But the people that were giving him a chance as president.
So he lied and played on our fears to ram through the stimulus. He lied about AIG bonuses, then tried to ram cap/trade through.
Then tried to ram hc reform through in two weeks? The last straw.
I’m not sure the majoprity of Americans will ever trust Obama again. He has told too many lies.

Posted by: Alyson | Aug 22, 2009 2:00:39 PM
It’s a very effective tactic they use to push good arguments out of people’s sight.
Posted by: ErnestNM | Aug 22, 2009 1:33:39 PM
***
I agree. I checked back to see if BH had come up with any ideas he supports that could be characterized on this planet as flexible or bipartisan, or Democrat since he dared me to cite Republican ideas I’d support (missing the notion that I was talking about being bipartisan so the correct question would have been what bipartisan, moderate, nonpartisan ideas I support).
Look, I’ve had some very honest people tell me they just don’t want reform and neither do their senators. They want nothing to happen and they really don’t care if the levies break cuz, you know, only the “lazy” folks will suffer. Most of the people on here are never gonna get that true liberty comes from providing a safety net, a minimal form of security for all citizens and that security extends beyond the military. As Ron Reagan said, “Isn’t it funny how ‘left wing lunacy’ turns into reality in a few years?” –See Tom Ridge’s recent revelations.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Alyson, you and others here seem to be very thoughtful and caring individuals. But, our society has become thoroughly corrupted by money and power. At this time, it is being expressed through Republicans since they have all the money and have had the power for so many years recently. They are still drunk with the power they used to have and the money (and corrupt hearts) they still have.
So, trying to have a thoughtful and productive exchange with Republicans is exceedingly difficult at this time in history. And the far-right?…pointless…they are like Satan incarnate!
I used to be a swing voter…I voted for Reagan once and Bush Jr. once. The criminality of the Bush administration opened my eyes. Once that happened, everything that “Fixed News” and wackos like “Beck” spouted slammed me for the quite apparent falsity that it always was! Rachel Maddow and Keith Olberman specifically point out and ‘Prove’ the far-right and Republican falsities pushed by ‘Fixed News’, ‘Limbaugh’, ‘Beck’ and others each and every night on their shows.
As a nation, the ‘Swing vote’ and the ‘Christian vote’ had been seduced, by very clever people on the far-right to vote for Republican candidates and programs and policies that worked against the very foundation of their existence! I was one of them. My eyes have now been opened.

Oh, how amazing that a Republican is suggesting we scrap the whole thing. (And wait another decade to address it again?)
And Obama is dreaming if he thinks the Republican obstructionists are ever going to let go of their lies and falsehoods. They know it’s all a pack of lies, but it’s all they’ve got!

Stop lying, Obama. That offends me. The death panels are already in your stimulus bill that has passed. You’re just increasing it further in the so called healthcare bill.
Also, you always told us when we questioned your experience to look at those you surround yourself with. Ok, let’s do that….Holdren, Susstein, Singer, Ezekial Emanuel, Hacker of the Tides Organization and Van Jones…all advisers and mentors. How about the QALY and complete lives system they believe in (AND YOU DO TOO OBAMA)? How about the IMAC panel that’s in the bill? Peter Orzag, your advisor says that’s a key part.
We are in dire trouble with your health power grab. Much worse than we think too.

“You all keep fighting against a government health care plan so that we can all be at the mercy of the “for profit” health insurance companies.”
Most people buy all of their food from “for profit grocery stores and restaurants.” The horrors….

IF this healthcare package is on the up and up, why has the author of the plan not been introduced to us by Pres. Obama, or vetted by the MSM media?
The blueprint was laid out by Dr Ezekiel Emmanuel, brother of Obama’s C.O.S. Raum Emmauel. Dr Emmanuel has been working with the administration since Febuary on the health care issue. Obama seems to be following the plan in Dr Emmanuel’s book, “Heathcare Guaranteed”. Dr Emmanuel describes what he sees as a failure of the Clinton administration; not taking full advantage of the honeymoon period.Dr Emmanuel prescribes getting legislation passed within the 1st 6 months, which we saw Obama try to do.
Another RX from the DR was to not get caught up in policy ‘weeds’, as he calls them. In other words, son’t get mired down in details. Pres. Obama followed that plan as well, which is why so many Americans balked. We were asked to approve of a plan that spends over $1.5 Trillion without knowing the particulars.
Dr Emmanuel’s plan is not a few reforms, but a radical change.
This health care bill is a radical change.
Dr Emmanuel wants to do away with employer provided health care.
Under Dr Emmanuel’s plan, granny is in trouble.
My only question is why the MSM hasn’t touched Dr Emmanuel’s book, when it’s obviously the blueprint for Obamacare.
I’ll wager that most Americans are unaware of the book.
All your questions can be answered by reading the book.
There’s a good reason why Dr Emmanuel is under wraps.
The state run media won’t tell you why.

It is amazing you reformers are wanting a system tha is similar to Canadas. Their healthcare system is failing because of excessive cost and not enough doctors. Why would anyone want with half a brain want a Canadian style system? I have been there many times and know a lot of canadians who all say the same thing. IT SUCKS!

Nagual | Aug 22, 2009 2:25:28 PM “He has told too many lies.”
Yes, there is a precedent for that. (GWB)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But I assume you were one of those with your fist in the air chanting “change”. Same crap different day.

jock59802 – You asked “What part of the word OPTION do you not understand?”
Reminds me of the “options” you had when you bought a Ford back in the day. Any customer could have a car painted any color that he wants, so long as it is black.”
We’ll have NO option once the Government-subsidized (sorry, tax-payer subsidized) public “option” puts all the rest of the options we have today out of business.

Fascist Hyena – You suggested
Anyone with evidence that it is occurring should present it immediately to the US Attorney in the district where it is occurring.”
LAUGHING MY ARSE OFF!!!!
What happens when it is the GOVERNMENT itself that is doing the price fixing?? Who does the Attorney General represent, when push comes to shove? Us or the President???
ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!

Toad in the road- links here are deleted, unless they point to ABC sites.

jhw539 – Didn’t see anything in your post about the lies and deceit being played out by the Democrats.
Wouldn’t be biased, would we??
I guess you’re of the opinion that whenever Democrats squat, gold bars pour out.

Good for the Goose – You surely aren’t THAT stupid, are you??
How ’bout “the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years.
Such consultation shall include the following:”
The word “SHALL” sounds like mandatory to me. Maybe if it was “COULD” or “MAY” or “IF REQUESTED” was used, I’d come to a different conclusion.
SHALL means MANDATORY!!!

Hey, Compassionate Converservative you sure sound like one of the wealthy class who could afford the $942.00 a month on one salary plus all your other bills. Good for you. Sometimes people have to take the jobs their offered if you don’t have the luxury to sit around and wait for the perfect job that offers everything they want. By the way your comments in no way make you sound compassionate.
Please spare me the Ronald Reagan crap. He had no regard for the middle class whatsoever. I don’t have the reverence for him that you all do. Reagan and his “revenue enhancements” which simply meant a raise in taxes which was done several times during his presidency. But, in all fairness to Reagan I really don’t think he was smart enough to know that was code for raising taxes.

Laughing:”jhw539 – Didn’t see anything in your post about the lies and deceit being played out by the Democrats.”
I cited the lies from Republicans, and a little googling can take you right to who said them, from Palin to Newt to Grassley.
What are the lies from Democrats?

Posted by: jhw539 | Aug 22, 2009 2:56:44 PM
I would be happy if the Republicans would just debate with fact, not blatant and frankly insultingly obvious lies.
Healthcare is expensive, and we have a budget problem. Republicans don’t have to be making up paranoid fantasies about death panels, whipping up seniors who think Medicare is a private plan, or telling lies about how we have the best health care in the world (at over twice the cost per person we should, but the facts are…).
But Republicans are chosing to ‘debate’ with lies. They don’t want a bill, they want to be obstructionists and kill it, all while pushing the fantasy that the status quo is sustainable. Like your insurance now? If nothing changes, there is no way you’ll have it in 10 years.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1) I hope you don’t plan on being happy – Republicans will never debate with facts…just not going to happen.
2) Interesting comment about “paranoid fantasies” – Every Republican I know suffers from a paranoid point of view of life. I have been wondering how this came about…or if it has always been the case. Has anyone ever done a study on that?
3) I think it is well known (and we can all agree) that ‘Lying’, ‘Cheating’, and ‘Stealing’ is the preferred way of life with Republicans. And, the far-right…well, they add a whole new dimension to the definition of those traits!

“SHALL means MANDATORY!!!”
Please, don’t take things out of context and use your brain to misinterpret the bill. By using shall, the bill simply, in my opinion, attempts to establish a certain criteria, so doctors don’t simply label a chit-chat as a “consultation” and get paid for it. By shall, it means that doctors are obligated to do what consultation is meant to do. But the consultation itself is completely voluntary.

Posted by: phoenix lady | Aug 22, 2009 3:11:09 PM
Where are President Obamas Death Panels?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The only real “Death Panels”, planned or in existence today, reside solely within the ‘Insurance Industry’.
They make “Death Panel” decisions each and every day when they decide to drop an insured or refuse to insure because of a pre-existing condition…or reduce the current benefits of all of us.
Only one motive to their actions….’Profit’.
And that fits perfectly into the Republican platform and philosophy!

facist hyena:”Not much point in finger-pointing and accusing others of lying. This thing is going down on its merits, although the left always seems to think that if its proposals don’t carry the day it is either because they are misunderstood or people are lying about them.”
The lies Republicans have been making are documented, and polling clearly shows they are working. Large percentage of people against the current efforts believe the lies. This is why healthcare reform has a chance. Blatant lies work great when sent out as a hit piece the week before an election, but over time the truth does come out.

Quote from President Obama’s Health Care Reform Advisor,
Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel:
“[S]ervices provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens [in the body politic] are not basic and should not be guaranteed.”
Translation: if you can’t vote, you don’t deserve to live. Which, for advocates of the disabled, ought to give just a little pause. All those developmentally disabled adults dependent on charity and/or Uncle Sam for their bed and board? ‘Drop dead’. Anybody who’s had enough of a stroke that they can’t clearly articulate their wishes? ‘Drop Dead’ Dementia? Drop Dead. Mental illness? ‘Drop Dead’.
Which is especially cruel, because every one of those groups I just named really does need a little extra help from government(nothing special) and support for living, and we as a nation have supported them better than anyone else. But not any more, if the President and his “social utility”squads have their way.
So when President Obama claims there will be no “death panels” in his health care reform plans, why then does he have Dr. Death as one of his health care reform advisers? Moreover, why is he reducing the Medicare budget by 500 billion when a 30% increase in enrollment is about to occur with the “baby boomer” generation entering their senior years? Where there is smoke there is fire and that is why so many people are rightly concerned about the government becoming a prime decision maker in how the health care dollar is spent.

Posted by: Axey | Aug 22, 2009 3:21:06 PM
===I would be happy if the Republicans would just debate with fact, not blatant and frankly insultingly obvious lies.===
…Yet just this morning, Obama called us liars for claiming the bill would fund abortions.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, tell the truth and label the “Liars” for what they.
I think the proper phrase for this is…’Call a spade a spade’

There are very few death row inmates that say “It’s true, I did it”. Obama’s limp “That’s not true” is pathetic, particularly in light of the meaning of the in-the-bill word “SHALL”. Not a myth, not a lie, not a “misconception”; Obama and his minions never refer to the actual documents under consideration, but only respond with deniable denials!! We are goig lickity-split down the road, the bridge is out, and we are told…”you’ll feel better when this is over with…..” I shall continue to post the warning signals, and pray that the “trusssssst me”
jargon is recognized for the snake oil it is.

‘Ditto’ to Virginia.

I’m surprised the deathers haven’t claimed yet that Zeke is mentioned by name somewhere in HR 3200.

A think a little paranoia is a good thing. Especially when you have a President who has been repeatedly recorded in “friendly” situations telling his folks how much he adores the single payer system, yet goes out of his way to mask that when dealing with the people who are adamantly opposed to a system that is failing miserably in every country it exists in. Paranoia = not having faith in a man who has not kept any of the promises he made even to his own crowd. Ask Cindy Sheehan up in Massechusetts this week.

The rationing canard(Economist)
“MANY, many people have already weighed in on whether or not the health care plan making its way through Congress will involve “rationing”, and it was inevitable, I suppose, that Martin Feldstein would eventually decide that it’s his turn. Here he is:
Although administration officials are eager to deny it, rationing health care is central to President Barack Obama’s health plan. The Obama strategy is to reduce health costs by rationing the services that we and future generations of patients will receive.
The White House Council of Economic Advisers issued a report in June explaining the Obama administration’s goal of reducing projected health spending by 30% over the next two decades. That reduction would be achieved by eliminating “high cost, low-value treatments,” by “implementing a set of performance measures that all providers would adopt,” and by “directly targeting individual providers . . . (and other) high-end outliers.”
The president has emphasized the importance of limiting services to “health care that works.” To identify such care, he provided more than $1 billion in the fiscal stimulus package to jump-start Comparative Effectiveness Research (CER) and to finance a federal CER advisory council to implement that idea. That could morph over time into a cost-control mechanism of the sort proposed by former Sen. Tom Daschle, Mr. Obama’s original choice for White House health czar. Comparative effectiveness could become the vehicle for deciding whether each method of treatment provides enough of an improvement in health care to justify its cost.
In the British national health service, a government agency approves only those expensive treatments that add at least one Quality Adjusted Life Year (QALY) per £30,000 (about $49,685) of additional health-care spending. If a treatment costs more per QALY, the health service will not pay for it. The existence of such a program in the United States would not only deny lifesaving care but would also cast a pall over medical researchers who would fear that government experts might reject their discoveries as “too expensive.”
Apologies for the long blockquote, but it’s necessary to illustrate how Mr Feldstein builds his argument. It’s an odd one. The deployment of scare quotes would seem to suggest that Mr Feldstein has a problem with the government limiting high cost, low-value treatments, even though they’re costly and not very valuable. In his third paragraph he says that Comparative Effectiveness Research—that is, research to determine whether treatments are effective or not—could lead to a cost-control mechanism which could become the vehicle for deciding whether a treatment’s effectiveness justifies its cost. And then he says something about a system that in no way resembles the one America would have if the current reform package passed. Left unaddressed is whether it counts as rationing if you’re still allowed to pay for additional services out of pocket.
It’s fair for Mr Feldstein to recommend certain changes in the tax code, as he then proceeds to do, as a useful policy step. But why the long and dishonest preamble?
The bigger problem with the argument by rationing is that it seems to ignore how resources are allocated in a perfectly free market—by willingness or ability to pay. Mr Feldstein writes:
But unlike reductions in care achieved by government rationing, individuals with different preferences about health and about risk could buy the care that best suits their preferences. While we all want better health, the different choices that people make about such things as smoking, weight and exercise show that there are substantial differences in the priority that different people attach to health.”
There it is. They are going to start insisting that gargantuan, tobacco smoking boozers that they need to take better care of themselves.
The welfare of the patient is the ultimate form of facism.

Axey:”Which is why Obama wanted this monstrosity voted on before the August recess. So his lies wouldn’t be exposed.”
Blah blah blah. Any lies cited? No. Just paranoid theories rebuked by every reputable factcheck and dataset out there.
The closest to a lie is that it will be deficit neutral, but seeing as how the bill is not hammered out and there are a number of funding mechanisms on the table to make it deficit neutral (which does NOT mean free), that could yet be met.

Bill:”Yeah, Has Obama read all 1180 pages worth of what he’s saying we should agree to?”
Yes, he has. Pelosi too.
What? How do I know? How do YOU know he hasn’t?
(In reality, I would confidently put money on the fact Obama has read it – reading papers is what academics do, and the double space, wide margin, hundreds of title break format means there really isn’t more than a day’s read to it.)

“at some point.”
Old Navy Chief;
The Republican Party resembles the Whigs, a defunct Party which stood for similar ideology.
They could survive, but they need to bring more solutions to the issues which arise, largely from their sacred cows, deregulation and belligerent foreign policy.

OldNavy: HR 3200 would set in place the largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world! Say that again!!! The largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world!!!!!!! From our pockets to the pockets of the government and their big corporate healthcare cronies! You are 100% on the mark on that one. Its all about the money and not your health. Anyone who thinks otherwise is extremely naive! Dont expect the racist Obama-panthers to convert from their false-prophet savior however.

How do you expand a program and at the same time cut cost? There would have to be rationing somehow no? Either that or its a money pit (and the dems know it is) but they and their cronies will be at the bottom of that pit with wheelbarrows full of tax money as if it were a gold mine growing larger and costlier and deeper and deeper in debt and size just like medicare dumping more and more money into it to keep the bloated program alive.

Blah blah blah. Any lies cited? No. Just paranoid theories rebuked by every reputable factcheck and dataset out there.
========
You must have missed the several comments today pointing out what Factcheck says about abortion in the current house bill.

How can you tell when a politician is lying? His lips are moving.

===Blah blah blah. Any lies cited? No. Just paranoid theories rebuked by every reputable factcheck and dataset out there. ===
Yeah. Abortions. I really don’t like my president calling me a liar when he is the one lying.

Quote from President Obama’s Health Care Reform Advisor,
Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel:
“[S]ervices provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens [in the body politic] are not basic and should not be guaranteed.”
Translation: if you can’t vote, you don’t deserve to live. Which, for advocates of the disabled, ought to give just a little pause. All those developmentally disabled adults dependent on charity and/or Uncle Sam for their bed and board? ‘Drop dead’. Anybody who’s had enough of a stroke that they can’t clearly articulate their wishes? ‘Drop Dead’ Dementia? Drop Dead. Mental illness? ‘Drop Dead’.
Which is especially cruel, because every one of those groups I just named really does need a little extra help from government(nothing special) and support for living, and we as a nation have supported them better than anyone else. But not any more, if the President and his “social utility”squads have their way.
So when President Obama claims there will be no “death panels” in his health care reform plans, why then does he have Dr. Death as one of his health care reform advisers? Moreover, why is he reducing the Medicare budget by 500 billion when a 30% increase in enrollment is about to occur with the “baby boomer” generation entering their senior years? Where there is smoke there is fire and that is why so many people are rightly concerned about the government becoming a prime decision maker in how the health care dollar is spent.

While democrats hurl insults during debates the public is well aware of the truth and no amount of ill-wishing and blame on their part can mask the truth and consequences about what is being proposed by the Obama administration. The failure and possible negative consquences of the healthcare proposal is just the breaking point of tip of the iceberg I would say in a huge list of fiscal mismanagement with nothing in return for the people of the USA. Speaking of returns how much less money in tax returns is the government going to get this year with so many unemployed? Could this be the real reason they are so desparate to milk the American taxpayer cash cow as much as possible?

News FLASH!!! “Myth that Obama knows what he is doing proved false!”
The clowns in DC are incapable or running pathetic entitlement programs already. Really people, do we want to turn over healthcare to these BOZOS? I think not. WAKE UP AMERICA!

Toad, if you think you are making a persuasive case by saying “You are either stupid or you are lying about the importance of public perception,” you probably should reconsider.
In any event, a majority of the public perceives that this is an unnecessary piece of legislation that is likely to leave them worse off than they are today. If you want to get your nickers in a twist about this person or that person “lying,” be my guest (it’s great theater), but the reason this bill will fail is that most people don’t want it, and for very good reason.

henry wrote:
Quote from President Obama’s Health Care Reform Advisor, Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel:
“[S]ervices provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens [in the body politic] are not basic and should not be guaranteed.”
Translation: if you can’t vote, you don’t deserve to live.
======================================
Henry, how in the world could you think that under any circumstances at all, being physically or mentally able to vote could EVER become part of health reforms?
It is so far beyond the realm of possibilities it makes one wonder how you could think it’s even worth discussing. So an explanation of how you think this could ever be possible would be very interesting.

Laughing_All_The_Way said “Good for the Goose – You surely aren’t THAT stupid, are you??
How ’bout “the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years.
Such consultation shall include the following:”
The word “SHALL” sounds like mandatory to me. Maybe if it was “COULD” or “MAY” or “IF REQUESTED” was used, I’d come to a different conclusion.
SHALL means MANDATORY!!!”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
An annual open sleigh ride means a trip across an expanse of snow-covered terrain, if such a ride has not occurred within the prior 12 months.
Such ride shall include:
A) One horse
B) Two or more persons, laughing
C) Bells on bobtails, ringing
Question: Will the village twits show up for the ride because they think it’s mandatory?

When has Obama told the truth? Was it about not appointing lobbyists? oopps, guess he did. Was it when he said no more earmarks?? ooppps , only 9000 in the stimulus bill.
blah, blah, blah. The democrats can’t tell the truth. It is not there nature. Why are they afraid of being called out as socialists? It is accurate, so why do they run from it.

The real problem is not being addressed at all and that is that corporations and employers (especially larger ones) are not being forced to carry mandatory healthcare for all employees. They not only hire consultants to cut costs and not pay healthcare but instead now the new ‘metrics’ books they follow insists that companies offshore whole depts full of people to other countries such as India. Why not force employers who offshore to mandatorily provide healthcare to all employees. In fact make it more expensive to provide healthcare to a person working in another country like India (after all the risk of them being attacked or killed is much higher)! If not make it illegal for companies to offshore employees in general? This is something congress could do in a week and not cost $1 Trillion dollars but you see that isnt what HR3200 is about – its about transfer of wealth! Not your health! Not your welfare or job future.

1

Well I can rest a little now. All my calls to political leaders – including the blue-dogs who the GOP thinks is on their side but is gonna vote with Obama when it comes down to it – all the petitions I organized and sent to Obama, is paying off.
Screw bi-partisanship. I said at the beginning of this debate that the extremistrs would never play well with others and they have’nt. There is no way the republicans are gonna sign ANY bill for reform.
All that we see from the republican extremists is smoke and mirrors, typical diversionary GOP tactics, and stalling tactics.
The republicans know that if this bill fails it will lose Obama seats in 2010. Combine that with the historic fact that the party in the WH always loses seats in the off election year and that number of lost seats would be even more as the republicans will exclaim that Obama is a failure (hell they already do).
Additionally, if Obama fails to get reform, this will weaken his ability to get passed an energy bill and any other bill that he may propose and then the fascist extremists will declare his entire presidency a failure and Obama will most likely be a one term president.
Democrats need to understand what is at stake here and continue to be even louder than the obstructionists.
We need to fight against those who desire to ignore our constitution and against the same people who desire to re-write our constitution to read, “A government of big business, for big business, by big business”.
Stand firm my independent and democratic friends and all reasonable republicans. Let’s get this done and keep our government a government of the people, by the people, for the people!

Extremism-sucks: You make all these generalizations and talk down to people especially republicans. I got news for you many republicans and independents are seeking true reform and change that doesnt involve transfer of wealth in the trillions of dollars. If anyone isnt open to new ideas other than expanding government roles and passing spending bills its Obama.

Laughing_All_The_Way said “Good for the Goose – Sounds like your sleigh ride is mandatory, and with specific requirements in order for it to qualify as a required sleigh ride.
Sorry, dude, but your logic is lost on us.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, now we all know for sure who “us” is. Enjoy your sleigh ride.

===i hear my mother complaining about her doctor bills everyday and she is almost 75 and you know this is a shame.===
I hear my M-I-L complaining about the electric bill and the grocery bill and the price of gasoline. And she is almost 80. Is that also a shame and shouldn’t she be provided with free elctricity, groceries and gasoline? They too are necessities to life.

The sad fact is that private insurers will NOT provide affordable coverage to those with pre-existing conditions unless FORCED to do so. Hence, the need for public options. Therefore, if the private insurers lose customers to the public options, it’s their own fault and they deserve the loss of business.

===He never said that. McCain did, but Obama never said no more earmarks.===
You’re right. He called them “pet projects”.

jhw539 – You said “Obama never said no more earmarks. You can’t even go two sentences without making up an easily disproven (this issue was covered in the presidential debates) lie about Obama. Do you think we’re stupid?”
…and YOU have been drinking WAY too much Obama Kool=aid, my friend. Slow down – that stuff is both addicting and mind-altering, for sure!!!
From USA Today…
During the 2008 presidential campaign, Barack Obama and John McCain both railed against congressional “earmarks” and promised to work to cut the wasteful spending they represent. Now, only one of them has followed through. Unfortunately, it’s not the guy in the White House.
Sen. McCain, R-Ariz., tried last week to rid Congress’ humongous spending bill of 8,570 earmarks. That represents $7.7 billion of your tax dollars for pet projects stuffed into spending bills by lawmakers to fund local interests or, sometimes, to benefit big campaign contributors. McCain lost.
President Obama — a once prolific earmarker who became a critic when he set his sights on the White House — has chosen not to pick a fight with the Democratic majority over Congress’ addiction to earmarks. His aides argue that the spending bill, passed Tuesday, is “last year’s business” because that’s when most of it was written.
Damned!!!
Don’t worry, though… these are just facts, and are of no consequence to REAL Democrats.

jhw539 – You asked “Do you think we’re stupid?”
Nope… just you.

gonzo, All the experts are saying the Medicare is “unsustainable” due to the fact it is going bankrupt. So why would a new government program like the “public option” be any different? Government would not have to “force” insurers to cover everyone, including those with pre existing conditions, if the government allowed more competition. This could be easily done by allowing people to buy insurance across State lines and getting rid of all of the government mandates so that insurance companies could offer a menu of plans from a cheese burger to a lobster. People than could pick and choose based on what they wanted to pay for. Government than could than provided some type of supplement for the poor so they could afford a basic policy. Since it is clear that Medicare and Medicaid are “unsustainable” putting money directly in the pockets of people to help pay for their private health insurance would make a lot more sense. Than we could get government out of the business of making choices about what to spend the health care dollar on and let the people decide what they want to spend their money on.

Those who actually believe this legislation is in trouble because of “lies” would do well to read the analysis of Bob Herbert of the New York Times, who is as besotted an Obama sycophant as there is on this planet:
“The president may be sanguine [about passing the bill], but the same cannot be said of the general public, including some of Mr. Obama’s most ardent supporters. The American people are worried sick over the economy, which may be sprouting green shoots from Ben Bernanke’s lofty perspective but not from the humble standpoint of the many millions who are unemployed, or those who are still working but barely able to pay their bills and hold onto their homes.
“This is the reality that underlies the anxiety over the president’s ragged effort to achieve health care reform. Forget the certifiables who are scrawling Hitler mustaches on pictures of the president. Many sane and intelligent people who voted for Mr. Obama and sincerely want him to succeed have legitimate concerns about the timing of this health reform initiative and the way it is unfolding.
“The president has not made it clear to the general public why health care reform is his top domestic priority when the biggest issue on the minds of most Americans is the economy. Men and women who once felt themselves to be securely rooted in the middle or upper middle classes are now struggling with pay cuts, job losses and home foreclosures — and they don’t feel, despite the rhetoric about the recession winding down, that their prospects are good.
“People worried about holding on to their standard of living need to be assured, unambiguously, that an expensive new government program is in their — and the country’s — best interest. They need to know exactly how the program will work, and they need to be confident that it’s affordable.
Mr. Obama, who has a command of the English language like few others, has been remarkably opaque about his intentions regarding health care. He left it up to Congress to draft a plan and he has not gotten behind any specific legislation. He has seemed to waffle on the public option and has not been at all clear about how the reform that is coming will rein in runaway costs. At times it has seemed as though any old “reform” would be all right with him.
“It’s still early, but people are starting to lose faith in the president. I hear almost daily from men and women who voted enthusiastically for Mr. Obama but are feeling disappointed.”
If attributing this bill’s probable failure to “Republican lies” makes you feel better, go right ahead. But Bob Herbert is now telling you just what I’ve been telling you. Pay attention.

Axey:” And she is almost 80. Is that also a shame and shouldn’t she be provided with free elctricity, groceries and gasoline? ”
She is. “Free” medical too. Haven’t you heard of Social Security? She certainly isn’t going to live well on it, but it’s (as planned) just enough to keep her fed on bread and cheese and in an apartment in a low rent neighborhood (hopefully, she saved a bit and has a supportive family to let her live in comfort, not merely live).
Haven’t you wondered why we don’t have elderly starving to death picking through heaps of trash like in India? Are you really that envious of third world nations and want us to emulate them?

===Are you supporting the original lie? Or propagating a new one, based on an assumption that people do not understand basic terminology? ===
Obama supported the DeMint amendment that called for a one-year moratorium on “earmarks” not “pet projects”. Are you supporting your original lie? Or changing the subject?

jhw539 – Let’s see, who’s at the top of the list for pork…
The Member of each chamber of Congress that secured the most money individually for earmarks in the $410 billion spending bill was:
Senate
Robert Byrd, D-W.Va., $122.8 million
House
Pete Visclosky, D-Ind., $34.2 million
Damned, those Democrats are sure GOOD at bringin’ home the PORK, ain’t they?!!!! How could Obama even THINK about disrupting THAT flow?

Axey – You said “I just hope they extend this benefit to homeowner’s insurance. I would like to drop mine and only purchase it after I actually need it.”
Yeah, and car and life insurance as well. I’d MUCH rather pay 1 or 2 payments and get a payout that to have to pay these fees for LIFE!! It is MUCH more convenient to pay them when they are needed, and dispense with them when that are not.
I LOVE this approach!!! We should have voted Obama in a long time ago!!!
BTW, who actually pays for all this free stuff?? ;)

=== “Free” medical too. Haven’t you heard of Social Security? ===
You are going to have to come up with a better argument than this one to refute the earlier post I was replying to.

The Republicans are still lying, claiming that the government will deny coverage. The group which notoriously denies coverage are the insurance companies. How anyone can claim that these vultures have been fair with Americans is beyond me. Not only that, they add another expensive layer to medical care as CEO’s enrich themselves. Even with insurance, my health costs are out of sight because my insurance gouges me on co-pays and has attempted to refuse coverage on prescription items I need. I despise the insurance companies!!!!!

sosupernova: The Republicans are still lying, claiming that the government will deny coverage.
=========
If the government runs a public option, do you think it will cover every medical procedure everyone wants?
If so, how will it bend the cost curve?

Obama has proven to be Immoral,Un-American
Socialist trying to bring down this great country.He does not want the voters to listen to lies and bad advise.If that is what he wants then he needs stop and start telling the truth and stop forcing bad bills down the voters throats.He is the worst President that this country has ever had.He needs to either resign or be Impeached and take Nancy Pelosi with him.This country can’t take a full four years of his evil intentions.

There are CZARS in the White House who are self admitted socialists and communists. The more of these there are the mose it costs you and I.

Maybee, insurance companies add yet another layer of costs to already burgeoning health costs. Their CEO’s get rich as they walk all over us with cleats on their expensive shoes. This is obvious. However, if you want to believe that insurance companies really care about your health needs rather than making a profit, have at it! And one other thing, the government is answerable to the people…we can vote them out of office. CEO’s are not!!!

Every ammendment made to bar illegals and deny federal funding for abortions has been shut down quickly. They figure that if it isn’t spelled out in the bill, they can later argue that it is ok for illegals and abortion.

Lies, lies, and more lies want make something true!!!! Distortions and lies are the name of the game with Republicans. Anything to get their way!!!!!

*to be learned-*

Right out of Saul Alinsky’s bok, Rules For Radicals. Destroy the economic system, and you destroy the fabric of the nation. Destroy the fabric of the nation, and you gain the power.
Obama has been surrounding himself with radicals his whole life: poet/communist/pornographer Frank Marshall Davis; William Ayers of the weathermen underground, who he met in Harlem in 1981…they went to communist meetings together. Ayers helped him with his papers, and later, his book Dreams of My Father.
Compared to Ayers Fugitive Days, same dumb nautical references, even though Obama never worked on a ship but Ayers did; Same dumb East River of NYC analolgy compared to Ayers’ book To Teach. Same pay phone analogies.
Compared to Fugitive Days, and Homer, same Homer style by starting with the death in the beginning and chapter 2 starting story in chronological order.
Obama and Ayers describe young boys riding the backs of water buffalo.
As a fugitive Ayers lived in Detroit; also attended Univ of Michigan. Even though Obama had never been there, added a bunch about Detroit to Obama’s book.
Obama and Ayers lived in NYC at the same time and Chicago at the same time. They knew each other well before the mid-90s, contrary to the coo-coo birds on the left.

“The three combined have an unfunded liability whose present value at this moment is one hundred trillion dollars.”
republicans have been trying to kill SS since it’s inception.
The first organized and well-thought-out attack came in 1980 when the massive tax cuts combined with huge increases in the military budget made balancing that budget impossible if social programs were not gutted.
(remember when Reagan declared ‘ketchup’ a qualifying vegetable for
the student lunch programs?)
The resulting shift of the tax burden from ‘unearned income’ trust babies
to Joe Lunchbucket’s payroll taxes is largely what the screaming is all about.
It’s all in the plan.

I neither am an “insurance company” or “its allies” I’m a regular American who opposes the public option. Now suddenly Obama is a capitalist about “competition”? Negative. I’m not buying his B.S. He knows that Americans favor capitalism, our rights, and our American heritage.
He also knows that we are in fact a ‘Christian nation’ if he has studied any of the founding fathers for 10 minutes. So because he’s really a marxist, he’s gotta try tearing our entire heritage down including the economy and ushering in socialism while at the same time calling it capitalism.
Is he insane? The public option is SOCIALISM and not capitalism.

James, bureaucrats have to follow the law, too, and they can be fired by new Administrations. When I wasn’t being turned down by insurance companies when I was perfectly healthy, I was being denied coverage for bona fide claims when I had coverage. Talk about bureaucrats…those “caring” employees of the insurance companies denied me by quoting outrageous reasons for their denial. One time, they paid for the medication that had to be administered by a doctor, then refused to pay the doctor for her services…and this by a huge insurance company…totally schizophrenic or unfair!!!

No one here has offered a substantive response to any of this. I conclude that we are all talking past one another here. Not very interesting anymore.
=======
Yes, it is incredibly frustrating when you keep presenting facts while others insist no such facts have yet been presented.
I’m agreeing with you, if that helps???

Why would DEMOCRATS want to KILL THE PRIVATE INSURANCE INDUSTRY (okay, can’t do it, I hate caps) and put the government in charge of everyone’s lives.

Thinkingalittleharder, having a public option is makes economic (capitalistic) sense. We have to have that choice available to keep the insurance companies from gouging us further. Nothing is more important to a person than his own health and that of his family. Millions and millions of families don’t have coverage because they can’t afford it, and even those with insurance, find that their coverage is inadequate for their needs. This worries me. It is not good for the country that we have so many not getting good health care!!!

case you didn’t know. The private insurance is already telling you where to go. And whose doctor you need to see. And they already denies care. You don’t need the government to do that. It’s already happening.

We have to have that choice available to keep the insurance companies from gouging us further.
================
Like we have to have government funded auto manufacturers to make sure the auto companies don’t gouge us?
Or like the government funded cell phone providers?
When did this idea that we need a government competitor for private companies crop up?

MayBee, the idea is a compromise between the most sensible option, single-payer, and what the insurance companies want, more government subsidy.

Don’t Be Deterred by BO’s ‘Phony Claims’ and “Outrageous Myths” and his personal attacks on the American Public who are exercising their Constitutional RIGHT to voice their opposition to his Socialist Health Care Plan….

Hey ABC how about a story on the secret backroom deals the White House made with drug companies and other health industry stakeholders….. that would be a lot more interesting than this regurgitation of BO’s wee weeds teleprompter propaganda laden infomercial..

BO wee weeds “dishonest debate” dominated by willful misrepresentations and outright distortions being spread by him and his internet army and union thugs are mobilizing the opposition to BO’s Socialist Health Care Plan

The phony claims are all your fault Obama.YOU wont listen or clarify your position.Stop blaming The GOP or anyone else.It is time YOU take responsibility for the mess you have gotten this country
into and think of how to get US out.

Insurance companies don’t DO anything, they just take money from the people who do.
=======
Then why all the talk about the number of uninsured in this country?
It seems to me the insurance companies must do *something* if they are in such demand and can charge such high rates.
They pool risk and manage payments. They provide a service, although it’s obviously one you have little respect for. That doesn’t mean they don’t do it.

Peepers, the Liberal Democrats want to eliminate the private sector so that they can impose a single-payer system, run by the federal government.
Sosupermova, the private sector cannot compete with the public option. That’s because, like it or not, the private sector IS about making profits. Without having to worry about a profit margin–in fact not even having to worry about a break even margin since the federal government can run the program in the red–the public option will totally undercut the private sector. So instead of having one MORE option, there will be only the ONE option.
85% of the American people are satisfied with their current healthcare plan. President Obama and the Left constantly say that those who are satisfied with their current plans will be able to keep those plans. That is not true. HR 3200, as currently written, includes Section 313 entitled, “Employer Contributions In Lieu Of Coverage.” That section provides a huge financial incentive for employers to DROP healthcare coverage for their employees. If a company has a payroll that does not exceed $250,000 they can actually drop coverage for their employees without any penalty or fee. If a company has a payroll over $400,000 they can drop coverage for their employees by only having to pay a penalty or fee equivalent to 8% of their total payroll. In other words an employer whose payroll is $1 million only has to pay an $80,000 penalty or fee for dropping coverage of their employees. So $80,000 versus hundreds of thousands of dollars currently spent on employee healthcare coverage. The difference is shear profit for the employer!
Make no mistake about it, the Left’s agenda is to nationalize our healthcare system. Before they can do that they have to eliminate the private sector. HR 3200 or any plan that includes a public option will do exactly that!

James Danley, since when was the purpose of government to insure private industry makes a profit? Where is that in the constitution? They have no right. The people allow corporations to exist by chartering them through the state, the people give businesses the right to exist by liscensing them through the state. There is no god-given right to make a profit.
The purpose of government is to insure the well-being of the people. Period.

ABC seems to uncritically accept statements from Obama and Barney Frank on the coverage of illegal immigrants. They point out properly the text excludes them. But every amendment that has been offered to require actual verification of citizenship or legal immigration status has been narrowly defeated. Thus they are not necessarily excluded Pelosi and Barney Frank are providing a convenient path to health care insurance fraud. They know full well that those who have broken immigration law are up to a little health care fraud. Shame on ABC news for just repeating the OBama / Frank statements – it is a matter of contention.

James Danley writes:
“…the public option will undercut the private sector and result in the elimination of the private sector. The end result will be a single-payer system run by the federal government. No choice for anyone!”
_______________________________________
Here’s a quote from the American Medical Association “Frequently asked Questions” about HR 3200, which they support.
“The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office has estimated that the bill will ensure that 97% of the legal, non-elderly population will have health insurance. At most, 12 million people would be enrolled in the public plan, representing only about 4% of the entire population.”
According to the AMA site, private insurance will actually increase under HR 3200:
“the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office estimates that from 2010 until 2019, the number of Americans with employer provided coverage will increase from 150 million to 162 million people. Additionally, for those Americans who purchase coverage through the Health Insurance Exchange, two-thirds (or 20 million people) will choose private plans. This means a significant increase in the number of American’s insured by private insurance plans.”

The elites and their blockheads are afraid of government health insurance and government healh care because it makes employees less dependent upon their employer. So many people here are suffering from “Stockholm Syndrome” and “Battered Worker Syndrome”.
Im sick of hearing you all talk about the greatness of your kidnappers and the fact that its your fault that your getting battered by big business.

I find the “death panel” accusation particularly ludicrous. As things stand now, tens of thousands of people are already facing death panels in the form of rationing by the so-called market dominated by big pharmas, insurance companies (who actually face little competition as they are regionalized) and health care providers.

Baucus is in trouble because of his pandering to the insurance lobby. A majority of Montana Democrats now disapprove of his actions in the health care bill.
Who is this guy working for, if not his constituents?
He probably actually thinks his real constituents are the insurance lobbyists to are bankrolling him.

What is your big problem with me wanting to pay 30-40% less by giving my premiums to the government and having them pay my health care providers? Why don’t you want me to have any real choice?
====
Hmm…I don’t believe I said that I have a problem with you wanting to pay less.
The problem I have with the government getting involved to lower your insurance premiums is that they have the ability to charge me more in taxes to help you get that lower premium.
Government also has the ability to underpay providers for services rendered, so that others have to pick up the real cost. That’s what is happening in California with MediCal.
Somebody pays, unless the actual cost of health care comes down.
If Obama can demonstrate that he knows- or someone knows- how to actually lower costs of treatment rather than just lowering cost the people on the plan have to pay, I’m all ears. If he has a good enough plan, I could even support the public option.

===Great point. I was denied by both private insurers in California for having a mild repetitive strain injury.===
You were denied complete coverage? Or just an exclusion to that pre-existing condition?
You make a great point about insurance ocmpanies and monopolies in states. Which is why republicans are supporting allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines.

MayBee, there is probably one thing that we can both agree on. If we are going to provide taxpayer funded subsidies to people who can’t afford health insurance, these subsidies should go only go to the public plan.
Why would you agree? Because it would be a total waste of taxpayer dollars to give the money to overpriced, inefficient, and unaccountable private insurers.

James Danley:”Flash Override, the U. S. Constitution does not give the federal government the power to nationalize or eliminate ANY private corporation or business that is conducting it’s business according to the laws of the land. ”
The Constitution gives Congress the power to set “the laws of the land”. That IS the power to nationalize any business as the majority sees fit for the common good. Education? Taken over by the government. Roads? Taken over by the government. Major research? Supported by the government (the internet would not exist if the government had funded it).
You DO NOT interpret the Constitution. The Supreme Court does. Or do you chose to ignore that rather explicit and clear cut part of the Constitution? You only read the bits you want I suppose.

MayBee:”I don’t, however, believe that the government can afford to run a public option plan for all the uninsured people out there and save 30-40% without additional taxpayer money going into running that plan or subsidizing that plan.
If it can be done, let Obama sell it with specifics.”
In every other first world nation, a national health care option cuts in half the spending for health care – and that spending DOES include spending via private options.
Why do you think our government is uniquely incompetent at this? Can YOU give specifics on why the US is uniquely corrupt and would not have similar results to Switzerland?

Here’s the scoop for you ‘small business’ fetishists out there:
“Small business representatives told Snowe that they were opposed to any mandates that came without a public option and that such an alternative was desperately needed for small business, which can’t afford the rising cost of health insurance for their employees.”
Of course the insurance representative Snowe says the option is “off the table”

No. I am not saying that. Please re-read what I wrote and what I was replying to (I included the exact quote from your post) if you are interested in an honest debate.
==========
I think you replied to something I did not intend to say. I was saying in that quote what I just restated.

In every other first world nation, a national health care option cuts in half the spending for health care – and that spending DOES include spending via private options.
Why do you think our government is uniquely incompetent at this? Can YOU give specifics on why the US is uniquely corrupt and would not have similar results to Switzerland?
=====
Then let President Obama sell his First World nation plan.
Let him give specifics.
So far, I haven’t seen them.
Have you?

MayBee:”Let him give specifics.
So far, I haven’t seen them.
Have you?”
Yes. Literally thousands of pages. The apparent fact that you have not been engaged in any research, when so many primary sources are available, is hardly a compelling argument in your favor.
Health care may indeed fail because too many people are too lazy to educate themselves beyond reading headlines and blankly staring at talking heads on TV. But I would find that a pathetic commentary on the lack of critical thinking skills in America, not the fault of Obama for not personally visiting every voter to hold their hand and personally educate them on the economics of health care.

“Health care may indeed fail because too many people are too lazy to educate themselves beyond reading headlines and blankly staring at talking heads on TV”
On the other hand we should never underestimate the right-wing propaganda machine’s ability to frighten people. It’s a relentless and dedicated effort to foment confusion.

MayBee:” so he will lower health care costs specifically by doing ________
it will be paid for specifically by doing _______
We will/will not/might have a public plan. (circle one)”
Why do I have the feeling you’re one of those students who complained bitterly if the test was NOT true/false? If it can’t fit on a bumper sticker, it must not be true I guess.
It would cut costs by introducing competition into the insurance market.
It will be ultimately paid for the same way as Reagan’s tax cuts – increased revenue from increased GDP. If we spent the same per person for health care as the average first world nation did, that would a TRILLION dollars A YEAR saved. At our 20% tax rate, that would more than $200 billion in the coffers.
We need a public plan. Everything relies on getting a competitor into the market to break the defacto cartels that now dominate, and I don’t think regulations alone can do the job (barriers to entry are just too high). With a public plan for competition, private plans will have to compete on efficiency, not marketing and ability to buy legislators (yes, of both parties).

I still haven’t heard much from the republican side of the aisle about covering people banned from health insurance due to pre-existing conditions.
KR once mentioned something about everyone automatically having some sort of major medical plan, but it may have been more of his own thinking than an organized plan that’s being promoted.
I think the public does need more specific info on how to pay for any insurance reform bill.
But it is hard to justify nation building overseas while millions of our own citizens are in jeopardy of losing their savings, their homes, and even their lives due to the pre-existing conditions ban and the truly unaffordable cost of healthcare for the uninsured.

jhw:”We need a public plan. Everything relies on getting a competitor into the market to break the defacto cartels that now dominate, and I don’t think regulations alone can do the job (barriers to entry are just too high). With a public plan for competition, private plans will have to compete on efficiency, not marketing and ability to buy legislators (yes, of both parties).”
How’s that working out in Massachusetts?

Danny, an employer’s cost of providing healthcare coverage to employees is far greater than 8% of a company’s payroll. Do you honestly believe that a company will continue paying the hundreds of thousands if not millions (for the largest corporations) of dollars annually when they can just pay the 8% penalty or fee annually? And for unionized companies that would mean no longer having healthcare benefits as part of the bargaining agreement–one less item to haggle over.

MayBee, I sense that it isn’t the public plan per se that you oppose, but the taxpayer subsidy part. Fair enough.
I have bad news for you.
Congress isn’t debating the subsidy. There is some talk about what income levels will get subsidies, but the idea of subsidizing people’s health insurance is a done deal.
The mandate for coverage was basically traded for the subsidy for people who can’t afford it.
The question that is left to be considered is are we going to use taxpayer funds only to subsidize private insurance, or are we going to allow people the option of joining a public plan as well.
I believe that there should be no mandate for insurance coverage unless there is a public plan to choose as well.
I also believe that the cost to the taxpayer would be less if a public plan were offered since it does not have to make a profit, hire lobbyists, etc.

Maybe we can contract with the Canadian health system to set up a service similar to theirs to provide services for the uninsured. NOT!

“I have bad news for you.”
And I have bad news for you, Flash Override: this thing is not going to be passed, and for a host of very good reasons.

The Massachusetts Plan has fifty-two mandates imposed on every private insurer, including that in vitro fertilization for every subscriber whether desired or not. That alone adds about $850 per family per year.
More gevernmental intervention.
Who can say what will be mandated in order for private insurers to be “qualified” under Obamacare? No one. But ultimately the Congress and the bureaurats will, and they will respond exactly as the Massachusetts politicians did.

Jhw539, you are the one who brought up the government’s right to take property for the common good. That is eminent domain.
Now then, if the Congress decided to raise taxes on the wealthy to subsidize the cost of mailing letters and packages, allowing the U. S. Postal Service to provide their services for free, that would undercut UPS and Fed Ex and they would soon go out of business.

Whatever. And only every other first world nation in existence successful makes it work work (provides equal quality care, on average longer life expectancies, and spend half as much per person).
========
I think you have the mechanism wrong.
In France, the government sets the reimbursement rates for all plans, public and private. They did NOT set up a public plan and hope the private plans would compete by lowering costs. The government also mandates coverage from either a private plan via the work place or public plan for a few without means. Once again. France did not introduce public plans as a mechanism to reduce costs via competition.
In Japan, again, the government sets the reimbursement rates for insurance, both public and private. They did not introduce a public plan in the hopes of making public plans compete. You must be in a scheme according to your profession/employer, and your employer must provide a portion of your insurance costs to go toward the determined scheme. The government decides who is eligible for the NHS. The insurance companies are all non-profit (I believe) and there, it is the hospitals who get the squeeze.

jhw:”Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan was a huge giveaway to the private insurers. Perhaps you should research that talking point a bit more.”
Talking point? Not really. You see, I live next door in RI and work with many, many Massachusetts citizens. I see and hear of the effects of this program nearly every day, and it is an unqualified disaster. The Connector Board is a haven for patronage and political hacks. Costs are four times (4X!) what was expected a mere 18 months into the program. Blame Romney if you will, but Gov. Patrick has owned this baby since the first day of activation. It’s a terrible plan and a terrible idea.

flash override says: “You should be aware that the main reason we have a private health insurance industry at all was wage controls imposed during WWII”
I am sorry, but you are very misleading with your statement. The wage controls imposed after WWII are incidentally the sort of government intervention that we oppose now as it has unintended and unforeseen consequences. Health insurance was offered by employers as a way to supplement wages that were capped, as a result health insurance became tied to a job and was not portable and it also separated the user of health care from the actual costs, thus providing incentive for those users to spend more than they would have otherwise. A great way to make health insurance portable is either to have a massive single payer system paid for with tax dollars (Canada and the UK) or to simply provide those who purchase health insurance as an individual with the same tax benefit as someone provided with health insurance by a company. The next thing we can do is to encourage HSA’s and high deductible, low premium, catastrophic coverage insurance that can be purchased by anyone in the US across state lines. Ultimately the high cost of health care we have now can be traced to the burden of government mandate and regulation on the insurance industry and on health care providers. The government runs about half of the health care provided now through medicare, medicaid, the VA, and Federal health plans. Do we really want to give them the rest of it? None of the government run options is being run within it’s budget and so they have to increase the amount of tax dollars paying for it or make cuts in services. Get the government out of health care and you will see service improve and costs go down.

flash override says: “I also believe that the cost to the taxpayer would be less if a public plan were offered since it does not have to make a profit, hire lobbyists, etc.”
What world do you live in where a government run program has ever cost less than a private company that has profit as it’s motivator to improve service and lower costs? Would you rather ship a package through the USPS or through Fedex or UPS? Lobbyists will become very powerful and influential with our politicians as they will represent drug companies and equipment companies who will want their drug or machine to be the one purchased by the vast public health care system. If you think lobbyists are a problem now, just wait until they are working on our representatives who will have ultimate decision making authority on what drugs and treatments are allowed. The less decision making ability our reps have, the less lobbyists will matter. Less government equals fewer lobbyists.

“Get the government out of health care and you will see service improve and costs go down.”
You will also see the number of people who have insurance go down.

Since when has the govt made anything better for any of us?? I point to the Post Office, Educational System, the Fed, etc. How can anyone believe the govt. can run any system effectively??
The govt. is the same govt that mishandled Kitrina and is now rebuilding homes located on the same land that is probably still wet from Kitrina. It’s insane to even think that our govt. has the answers or solutions to our medical problems. Presently, I have no health insurance. Hopefully, I will be able to afford it in the future or will have an employer that can. If not…then I will personally suffer the outcome, as I should.

jhw359 says: “Now what does this have to do with the various proposed federal public options, where the government doesn’t hire a private insurer, but cuts out the $100 million/year CEOs and middle men and actually provides the insurance service directly?”
Sure! Cut out the CEO who earns a huge salary based off of his ability to run a business that has high customer satisfaction and high efficiency in exchange for a few thousand government bureaucrats who make low 6 digits each in order to provide government service like we get from the post office, the DMV, the IRS, the VA, and last but not least the Dept. of Transportation that has run the Cash for Clunkers program so well.

“What world do you live in where a government run program has ever cost less than a private company that has profit as it’s motivator to improve service and lower costs?”
Ooh, nice Barney Frank impersonation, Jason!
Carry on …

roger king:” How can anyone believe the govt. can run any system effectively??”
America is the most prosperous free nation mankind has ever seen. That is because of the government our founding fathers gave us, not in spite of it. I do NOT hate my country, do not hate its government by the people and for the people, and believe it is the best in the world – ‘the worst option – except for all the others.’ And all the others (first world nations) are doing health care better than us right now.
Two centuries ago, aristocrats insisted America would fall within a generation, since the vulgar common man would never work without the firm hand of a king pushing them onward. The current “America’s government is the problem!” canard of the far Right is just as absurdly out of touch.

Jason writes:
“The next thing we can do is to encourage HSA’s and high deductible, low premium, catastrophic coverage insurance that can be purchased by anyone in the US across state lines.”
_____________________________
If this covers people with pre-existing conditions it could help the situation, though many people with these conditions would be paying the maximum out of pocket expenses. Today I think these plans would cost about 5-7 thousand dollars a year for these individuals, at least in California.
It doesn’t sound like a lot of money to some of us perhaps, but for lower income folks that’s unaffordable. Do you see any way to make those plans more affordable?
And on another minor point–I think priority mail from the USPS is faster and cheaper than some UPS options at the same weight.

jhw953 says: “America is the most prosperous free nation mankind has ever seen. That is because of the government our founding fathers gave us, not in spite of it.”
I agree with you that we are the most exceptional nation ever because of the government our founding fathers designed, and that is why I am so offended and upset when FDR, Johnson, Carter, Bush, and Obama all push policies and government spending that will destroy us.

Because Jason the only way they would be able to make significant cuts in cost and still be able to improve service would be to selectively insure the healthy and dump the afflicted before making big payouts.

Jason:”Cut out the CEO who earns a huge salary based off of his ability to run a business that has high customer satisfaction and high efficiency ”
Have fun in your little fantasy world there. Medicare has higher satisfaction, and the largest insurance cost is adjusters who work tirelessly to find reasons to rescind coverage from the most expensive clients.

The “public option” will NOT increase “choice”, but will introduce the government into healthcare under 65, wich will then spread and take over ALL healthcare!!! — Obama said it himself, speaking to an AFL-CIO meeting in 2007: “A single-payor healthcare plan, universal health care.. that is what I would like to see! But as all of you know, we might not get there immediately…

jhw:”Your blind assumption that our government is evil, corrupt, incompetent, and unchecked is what so many who like our country have a problem with.”
Where did I make that assumption? Evil? Never said or implied that. Unfortunately many governmental functions have more than their share of inept and corrupt individuals. As I mentioned I live in RI where we’ve taken government corruption and incompetence to unprecedented levels. No assumption is necessary, we have ample, documented proof year after year.

ChangeThis:”A single-payor healthcare plan, universal health care.. that is what I would like to see!”
He’d probably like to see Kim Jong-il dead. Doesn’t mean he has the death squads out, or that Santa’s going to bring slip Jong-il’s head into his sock.
What is being proposed is written, in black and white. It is not a one pager saying “what ever Obama wants,” its a pretty dense exhaustively defined, limited, precedent ordered, and legally structured piece of law.

I am tired and going to bed, so I will leave you with this from David Rivkin Jr. and Lee Casey:
“Can Congress require every American to buy health insurance?
In short, no. The Constitution assigns only limited, enumerated powers to Congress and none, including the power to regulate interstate commerce or to impose taxes, would support a federal mandate requiring anyone who is otherwise without health insurance to buy it.”
Look up the rest of their article “Illegal Health Reform” if you are interested in finding out more.

jhw: “And came out as the dominant world superpower in the 40′s, the dominant industrial superpower in the 50′s, the dominant exporter of culture in the 60′s, (the 70′s were pathetic – thanks OPEC), the midwives of the computer era in the 80′s, the leaders of the software and PC industry in the 90′s, and the creators of the internet (a government ‘pork’ project in full bloom) in the 00′s. I expect the 10′s will see the government pork project work on the genome – which inspired fantastic private industry work that ultimately surpassed it – to be the story of the 10′s”
Thanks for the insight into your thought process. I realize we can’t debate six decades of progress and associated root causes, but your willingness to credit the government for the success of the internet in the 00′s is fascinating. The internet got its start with the DOD in the 70′s and was commercialized in the 80′s. It was hardly a pork project.
Our national success in the 40s and 50s can largely be attributed to the fact that the rest of the industrialized world was in ruins and rebuilding. We languished in a very unpopular war in the 60′s and 70′s (remember that?) and our economy suffered. Nixon’s price controls and Carter’s lack of leadership didn’t help either. Enter Reagan’s tax cuts that you credited earlier. Clinton succeeded because he was a populist and a brilliant politician.
You believe we succeed because of our huge federal government, I believe we succeed in spite of it. Guess that about sums it up.

ChangeThis:”So you are going to tell me that the great states of New York and Illinois, two of the top three largest Dem states, are NOT net “taker” states?? — Do proceed!!”
Are you just trolling at this point? New York gets back only $.79 per dollar it pays in to support the Federal government. Illinois gets back only $.75. Both are in the top 10 of the states that pay MORE into the Federal government than they get back. The three top freeloader states sucking up their money? New Mexico, Mississippi, and Alaska.
This isn’t opinion – I gave you the citation, the Tax Foundation (a pretty conservative group), who did the budget analysis to produce these numbers.

Woody:”You believe we succeed because of our huge federal government, I believe we succeed in spite of it. Guess that about sums it up.”
Yup. But I can point towards a globe full of governments that are all LESS efficient than ours, LESS responsive, and MORE bloated. Can you point to a single, real world, functioning government of anywhere near similar scale that does better than ours?
Our government is the worst – except for all the others.

Axey:”Freeloader states? It’s classic income redistribution. What you advocate for daily.”
I was emphasizing that ChangeThis appears to have no grasp on reality, and suggesting the hyposcrisy of the solid Republican ‘self sufficiency and no income redistribution!’ states being the states that are, but a large majority, the first at the trough for income redistribution from all those ‘liberal elite’ states who just happen to produce far more profitable goods and services.
And with that atrocious run on sentence, I’m off to bed.

Danny, the employers share for employee individual coverage is not less than 72.5%; and not less than 65% for employee family coverage.
However, Sec. 313 is entitled “Employer Contributions IN LIEU OF Coverage.” I read that to mean that employers that do not provide healthcare coverage for their employees pay the penalties or fees (0% for payroll less than $250,000; 2% for payroll between $250,000 and $300,000; 4% for payroll between $300,000 and $350,000; 6% for payroll between $350,000 and $400,000; and 8% for payroll above $400,000).

jhw:”You seem unable to comprehend the concept of the government competing fairly in the marketplace, as the USPS has done for decades in the area of package delivery. It would have been trivial for the government to cheat and shut down UPS/FedEx; they did not and have never made the slightest peep about it.”
Thanks for the denegrating comment, it really bolsters your argument.
I’m guessing you’re aware that Article I of the Constitution empowers Congress with all measures necessary to ensure the safe and speedy deliver of the mail. If the citizens of America want to add an amendment to the Constitution to empower Congress with all measures necessary to provide safe and speedy health care delivery and accompanying insurance, I’m all for it.

jhw:”Our government is the worst – except for all the others.”
I couldn’t agree more. So why the attempt to become more and more like the others?

clinton succeeded in what? the economy was good, but not one bit better than it was under reagan. clinton was offered osama bin laden on a silver platter because he was wanted for terroristic acts inside the US, but clinton refused to take custody of him.he was successful with the economy as he also had republicans controlling the purse strings in congress. he was apparently liked by world leaders, but did nothing significant or memorable, maybe thats why they liked him.

President Obama is intent on outsourcing everything these days.
He outsourced his “health plan” to Henry Waxman.
He’s outsourcing our debt problem to China…for now, as long as they continue to buy our debt.
And now he’s outsourcing global leadership to anyone who’s willing to lead in our stead.
But hey, no worries, China and Russia have absolutely no history of imperialism or ambitions for world conquest.

Bet Noir — Did you say “The Physicians for a National Health Program wants Single Payer, which is what the majority of people in the US want.” — If so, please point to ANY poll taken in the last six months that says the majority of the American public wants Single-payor!

“Danny, the employers share for employee individual coverage is not less than 72.5%; and not less than 65% for employee family coverage.
However, Sec. 313 is entitled “Employer Contributions IN LIEU OF Coverage.”
Thanks for bringng that up, James I’ll have to take a closer look later tonight or tomorrow, but will probably try to reply on this thread.

In my long lifetime, the Congress has always been my main concern because you can’t hold any of them responsible for any given mess that they stick their noses into. Sen. Harry Reid is the worst. He knows to make all of his dirty little deals in private. He almost always stays off TV and out of the public eye. He is UNamerican. Pres. Obama has become the public Harry Reid.

It appears that JHW539 has decided simply not to respond to any of the facts I have presented, or assertions I have made, that refute his every claim. I can understand this; if someone had punctured my arguments that thoroughly I would be sorely tempted to avoid him, as he has done with me. But the points I have made stand unrebutted, and they form a significant part of the reason that the nation does not need, and will not have, a public option. What it needs is an assiduous effort by the government to undo the harm it has done, and to get out of the way.

JHW539: “Can you point to a single, real world, functioning government of anywhere near similar scale that does better than ours? Our government is the worst – except for all the others.”
In the area of health care, you repeatedly point to all those other first world countries that we should emulate. Are their health care systems better, or worse?

BH:
President Obama, in just six months, has become the most dishonest President in American history.
—————————————–
I completely agree. Even when FactCheck debunks some of his Lies, he keeps right on telling them anyway. Doesn’t he have anyone to proof-read his stupid Teleprompter?

Republicans are motivated by self-interest, but they generally have better economic policies.
Posted by: Undead
certainly apparent by Bush’s administration… and what planet are you from?

the simple question is where was this republican ‘concern’ for ‘rights and freedoms’ during Bush’s years..
-Bush ran up the deficit…. no problemo
- unfunded wars…. no problemo
- unfunded prescription drug plan.. no problemo
- constitutional violations using wiretaps .. no problemo
- no heath care reform… no problemo
I could go on…. but you get the idea, just where were all those ‘concerned’ town hall protesters..

Obama needs to man up and tell the truth. he’s more like Bush everyday. Bush was heavily influenced by Rove, Cheney, Rumsfield types. Obama is influenced by the psycho Pelosi types. Or maybe he really is out of touch with regular people and doesn’t care about them. Either way, he’s weak, malicious, and dude just needs to go. Step down or something. Dude’s a disgrace to the presidency and man-kind in general.

how would you evaluate Obama’s economic policies to dat? Are you pleased that in his very first year he has run up a larger deficit than Bush did in any four-year term?
Do you thnk you understand the significance of any of this, or would you rather just not think about iy?
Posted by: Fascist Hyena
Mr. Hyena, you have to prove to me that you were this ‘concerned’ about the economic future of america pre-Obama when Bush was running up deficits,, I doubt you and others here were………..
you want an evaluation, I’ll make an evaluation near the end of his first term..
Your the only one who understands the true significance of anything and everything, that’s why your making policy for America…..wait,, sorry , you’re not making policy for america….
you have, I believe the proper term for it is….opinion.
I gave Bush the benefit of the doubt when he invaded Iraq, I couldn’t bring myself to believe that an American would start a war for revenge and profit….I was wrong as we all found out later in his term…..
time will tell….about Obama’s policies
until then ….. you keep those fingers busy on the keyboard

to distract myself from how bad the economy is
Posted by: Undead
I’ll give you that,…Obama has not fixed the American economy in 7 months
g’night

GRASSLY BAUCUS, CORYN, CANTOR, BOEHNER have received multiples of millions of dollars from the M.I.C. They are bought and paid for. GRASSLY Et. AL. will do and tell any lie to please their CORPORATE masters. GRASSLY is not a hero and a patriot. He and his ilk resemble the Quisling’s who sold out FRANCE to the GERMANS. Our politicians are henchmen and women who have accepted what could easily be construed as bribes. Each one of them accepting large donatioms from their BIG CORPORATE donors. They are more like Benedict Arnolds than heroes.
GRASSLY, BOEHNER, CANTOR, BAUCUS, CORYN sell out WE THE PEOPLE to GIANT CORPORATIONS and for this they get lots of baaaaing from the SHEEPLE. Part ONE
R’s, D’s, and I’s accept the fact our politicians are heavily influenced by the lobbyist groups representing the GIANT CORPORATIONS who profit over the bones of the SHEEPLE.
ACCEPT this fact! Rail against it! SHEEPLE find out how much money your representative has been paid to stop health care reform. It doesn’t matter which side of the isle they come from.
DASCHLE, while not listed as a lobbyist, is bought and paid for by the M.I.C. In his case they are actually paying his salary. But, he claims this does not influence his opinions.
Yeah, sure, right!
WE THE PEOPLE need to know the facts before we kill anything. GRASSLY ET. AL
have no idea what the final HEALTH CARE BILL will have written into it. Those crooked politicians are content to do their CORPORATE MASTERS bidding and just say NO to everything relating to healthcare reform.
Why do the BIG GIANT CORPORATIONS sell drugs outside the US at a 20% discount to the price they charge SHEEPLE in the US? Ask the GRASSLY’S ET.ALS. of the world that simple question. THen ask them why they allow such an injustice to the SHEEPLE of our GREAT COUNTRY.
The President got at least one statement right. When it comes to CORPORATIONS and their hold on our elected officials. There are no blue states, there are no red states, there is only the UNITED STATES. And unless WE THE PEOPLE stop baaaaing loudly at facts. WE THE PEOPLE are going to be hurting harder and longer than you can imagine.
As a prime example, look at WALL STREET and the BIG EAST COAST BANKING CONGLOMERATE. You know who I mean.The folks who got us here in the first place. Since March of 09 You would think our country is thriving. THEY make money by firing SHEEPLE to increase profits,(see TGT) While MAIN BARN where the SHEEPLE graze saw 1.2 million homes go into foreclosure.
SHEEPLE, follow the money. It always tells the truth.
GRASSLY, BOEHNER, BAUCUS, CANTOR, CORYN
baaaaa for them to resign immeadiately.
To them, SHEEPLES lives are all about getting re elected and taking funds from their Corporate masters.
They don’t care about you the SHEEPLE.
All they want is to get re elected.
SECREG_756

THE ONLY THING PHONY HERE IS OBAMA. CONCERNS RE NATIONAL HEALTH INS ARE SPOT ON.
THE BIGGER THE GOV GROWS, THE SMALLER THE INDIVIDUAL BECOMES. THAT IS ALSO SPOT ON AND HISTORICALLY CORRECT – A CONCEPT THAT LIBS DO NOT UNDERSTAND UNTIL IT’S THEIR TURN TO GET SCREWED AND MAYBE, NOT EVEN THEN!! Not an ins exec – just a trucker from Cleveland.

how is a government subsidized program specifically designed to provide services at lower costs than the market going to create competition among private sector entities? sounds a lot like “evil” wal-mart, which prices competitors out of business by offering goods at retail prices lower than competitors can procure them at wholesale. the rub, which the administration will not reveal is that insurance companies must operate on a postive cash flow basis, whereas the government never has to reconcile its bank statement. just look at the postal service…$7 billion in the hole and still operating. no “competitor” be it ups, dhl, or fed ex can operate with a $7 billion deficit…but the government run entity can. and contrary to public opinion, ups et als aren’t actually in competition with the postal service…if they were, they’d be able to deliver letters into your mailbox…which is currently illegal. i have no doubt that if they were allowed to do so, they’d be able to undercut the postal service and we’d probably be mailing letters via private carrier for much less than 44 cents. whenever the government is actually concerned about cost controls (as in highway construction) it bids out work to private entities. when it wants to control a particular sector of the economy, it exerts total control over it…and the results are inevitable…inefficiency and soaring deficits. health care will be no different.

Obama is in real trouble with Healhcare refrom, as he has lost the trust of the American People. No matter what side you are on, no matter what your concerns are one way or the other, the intent was to rush this bill through and get it signed without reading it, and with no regard to how the public felt about the issues. If there was any way at all that they could have done this they would have. You cannot now come back after the fact and expect people to trust you now. We don’t want empty statements from you Mr. President. You want to make a point about your bill, well about about getting the actual bill and showing us how we are going to benefit from it. Show us specifically, stop the platitudes. Show us how for instance you say the system is unsustainable, but your plan is deficit neurtal. Well Mr. President, doesn’t that keep us on the same path to destruction you claim we are on presently? Not to mention the fact that multiple times the CBO said the bill would NOT lower costs. So are they spreading rumors too? Show us how when Medicare is going bankrupt that you are going to add 47 million people while keeping the same care on Medicare that our seniors have now, and without it costing more money. It seems to the average citizen that you will have no choice but to limit care in some manner, or go completly broke. Can my 80 year old grandmother get Heart bypass surgery? What about if she’s 85? What if she’s 70 and needs a heart transplant, can she get it? Can a 50 year old dialysis patient get a neew kidney? Is your plan going to treat all cancers? At all ages? We need answeres, these are important questions to people.

Let me get this straight; I now have a president who wants to provide me with health care, and he can’t kick the habit?

Obama: “..Medicare is a government program that works really well for our seniors,”
Obama: “If we’re able to get something right like Medicare, then there should be a little more confidence that maybe the government can have a role—not the dominant role, but a role—in making sure the people are treated fairly when it comes to insurance.”
Obama: Medicare is “going broke” and “unsustainable” and “running out of money”
And Obama wonders why we can’t have an honest debate. It’s because he is far from honest.

I’m so tired of these conversattions. How much money has been spent on this debate? More than I can fathom I’m sure.
What should be done is every citizen in the USA should be given a credit like card that reflects every time they pay iinto the Health fund.
This should be a government run and backed fund that you pay into the fund monthly. 50 dollars would be the fee.
If everyone paid their fees(in a perfect world) there would be upwords of $800,000,000 dollars per month to be used for the sole purpose of medical care

Google “The GOP has become a party of nihilists” for an interesting take on the lack of good substantive arguments on the right in the health care debate, and I would argue in any recent debate. As the article points out that makes true creative public policy, with Republican input and bipartisan effort, impossible.
A few pertinent quotes from the article–
“The philosophically supple party that existed as recently as George H.W. Bush’s presidency has been obliterated.”
“The same people who rail against a government takeover of health care tried to enforce a government takeover of Terri Schiavo’s end-of-life decisions.”
“Dwight Eisenhower tiptoed around Joe McCarthy. Obama reminded an audience in Colorado that opponents of Social Security in the 1930s “said that everybody was going to have to wear dog tags and that this was a plot for the government to keep track of everybody … These struggles have always boiled down to a contest between hope and fear.” True enough.”

Basically it is obvious that the goal of this administration and congress is to control free enterprise. Plan and simple there Health Reform plan will not solve the health care problem. Has anybody reviewed the existing regulations at the federal and state level that is most likely causing the current problem.

Basically it is obvious that the goal of this administration and congress is to control free enterprise. aforefreedom >>>> Its a good guess. Not sure what the point really is. HR3200 doesnt FIX anything and if anyone who has created a complex system knows it will be FULL of new unintended consequences. Target fixes at the current problems. DONT make new problems that will need fixes. If you want a crisis to address how about unemployment. ITS A BIGGER PROBLEM. We have many decent middle class falling into poverty.

I am sick of this left wing dribble. You cant defend the bill so you attack those that dont like it with dribble and psycho babble.
***
You are hilarious– and wrong. I can defend health care reform policies of the left and I have. I’ve also spoken to policies that are more moderate and bipartisan. I haven’t wasted a lot of time on the House bill because it hasn’t been voted on by the full house yet and from my research I’m pretty darned sure the Senate bill will look much different. But I did do a little fact-based arguing on it–I went through the end-of-life counseling provision fairly tediously, going back to the Social Security Act it amends, which no one else on the right did on here, nor cared about, though looking at the bill amended provided needed context. Sigh.
Oh, and by the way, boooo! I see a socialist coming. Better run!!

“The same people who rail against a government takeover of health care tried to enforce a government takeover of Terri Schiavo’s end-of-life decisions.”
Yeah, that argument flies until you note the consistency….Repubs. are always fighting for the preservation of life…i.e they oppose abortion because murdering babies ends life, and is morally bankrupt. They opposed pulling the plug on Terri because they sought to preserve her life. If anything the right has been a stalwart and champion of life, rather than the left’s incessant desire to preserve the elitist idea that the “well reasoned” and “well informed” should decide if a baby lives or dies or if grandma should be pressured or not into assisted suicide. I realize that’s harsh, but it’s all too often true.

“or if grandma should be pressured or not into assisted suicide”
The same bleeding heart liberals that don’t talk tough enough to North Korea now want to unplug grandma. It’s blatant distorted vilification.

“Until it comes to starting wars, criticizing efforts at peaceful diplomacy and withholding money to help save the lives of the poor and such.”
Yeah, that 911 thing was all Bush’s fault. Are you a ‘Truther?’ Yeah, losing patience with Hussein after years of non-compliance with UN stipulations was such a rush to judgment. Yeah, the billions the Bush Administration poured into Africa proves that America is just a bunch of greedy slugs, particularly when the rest of world gave zilch.
But hey, why let facts get in the way of a perfectly good sound bite.
The Irony: I don’t self-identify as a Republican, I’m not a fan of Republicans nor am I a fan of Bush.

Yeah, that was so despicable wanting to keep that poor woman ALIVE.

Repubs. are always fighting for the preservation of life…i.e they oppose abortion because murdering babies ends life,
Posted by: BH
you need to get with yer girl, Michelle Bachmann,
she now supports a woman’s right to choose, her recent statement of ‘I don’t want the government making medical choices for me’.. is a change from her usual right wing evangelical insanity.
and btw: the Schaivo case was notable not only for the personal tragedy, but government interference.. you know Bush, Frist, DeLay and Santorum all running back to D.C. to craft religious legislation…..
re: should decide if a baby lives or dies or if grandma should be pressured or not into assisted suicide. I realize that’s harsh
no it’s not harsh…… it’s plain fraud and stupid

Well for those touting the president’s approval numbers, it didn’t take a rocket scientist to figure, if 10% Americans are unemployed, that affects what percentage of households?…and understandably people are desperate at this stage, but the president can only do so much, I believe we’ll get out of the ditch but this is not the same as recessions past, we’ve lost so much in manufacturing, our work force has gone global and we are less educated in the sciences and technology on average than our counterparts in Asia, this is the cusp of the fall of Rome and we can discount it but it is here…all nations peak and then fall…

and btw: the Schaivo case was notable not only for the personal tragedy, but government interference.. you know Bush, Frist, DeLay and Santorum all running back to D.C. to craft religious legislation…..
===========
It’s a silly argument to get into. Yes, the government overreacted.
No, it wasn’t religious.
And there was bipartisan, unanimous agreement to let the legislation be crafted to allow the parents to be heard by the courts.

Also bipartisan does NOT mean supporting Republican ideas. It means coming up with solutions that aren’t partisan– that take consideration from ideas that may be partisan and then creatively go outside boxes.

I didn’t think they’d persuade anyone who doesn’t agree with him. But I find the arguments interesting as I said.
=====
Obviously.
Although there weren’t really any arguments in it, I would say it is the same kind of instinct that is getting Obama in trouble right now. Criticize your critics with ever-increasing shrillness.

Responding to James Danley:
James–I haven’t been able to find anything yet describing how the authors of HR 3200 came up with their numbers (pay 72.5 of employees’ coverage or pay an 8% payroll tax). If you can find anything I’d be interested.
But at this point I can see how employers could decide to drop their coverage and just pay the tax, while others paying lower premiums could decide to keep paying for coverage.
Without information on how these numbers came about, I’m confused about how this plan would play out. I think you make an excellent point in bringing attention to this subject.
In trying to imagine how those numbers came about, there are a lot of variables I don’t have info on–for example, how much the authors of the bill expect premiums to drop due to reform.
In any case, I imagine those figures in HR 3200 could easily get changed in any final bill.
Meanwhile, while I was looking into this subject, I saw a 2008 Kaiser Family Foundation report which said that premiums have gone up 119% for family plans in the last 10 years. I’ll probably start looking into how that came about.

“his tax cuts kicked in and a spectacular economic boom got underway”
It was a fake boom just like the last one. He saddled his successor with the responsibility to raise taxes back up.

Outcry Over Vets’
End-of-Life Guide
Specter calls for Senate hearings to scrutinize end-of-life care guide that one former Bush official calls a ‘hurry-up-and-die’ message to veterans
Death Panels…anyone anyone?

Posted by: Reeba
Anonymous=Limbaugh?

Apparently without reform, health insurance costs are expected to go up 9% this year and 9% next year.
Sure sounds like an urgent situation.
Here’s a relevant quote from Business Week, 8/21/09:
“A survey released by PricewaterhouseCoopers in June predicted that the health care costs for U.S. employers will increase 9.2% this year and 9% next year. As a result, 42% of employers said they expect to increase the amount that employees must contribute to health benefit plans, and 41% expect to increase the amount of co-pays, deductibles, and other health costs the employee must pay.”

“Reagan’s fake boom lasted twenty-five years and spurred the entire world to the greatest rise in global prosperity in the history of the human race.”
It’s clever of you again to try and credit the successes of the Clinton administration to Reagan but a commonly established counter-viewpoint also says that trickle down economics was a complete failure since the wealth never actually trickled down. By the time Bush Sr got in office he felt he had to take the drastic step of raising taxes even though he swore he would not do so.

“Trickle down” is a term of opprobrium used by losers to deride the most successful economic policy in world history. The wealth trickled down to all those with the sense and gumption to come up and get it. The serfs, losers and freeloaders didn’t take advantage of it, and did what they always do, which was complain. Tough luck.
I sure got rich, and I did it by honest hard work. Too bad if you blew it.

re: Schiavo.. ‘to allow the parents to be heard by the courts.’
Posted by: MayBee
the parents and the crazed evangelicals were heard in multiple courts, multiple times, Bush and the ‘right’ and that religious fraud Randall Terry didn’t like the verdicts… it’s always the same with republican ‘holier than thou’ approach to government..
‘If we don’t like it, we’re justified’… if progressives don’t like it or are for it, it’s communist and anti-american..

Bush and the ‘right’ and that religious fraud Randall Terry didn’t like the verdicts…
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I am absolutely no fan of Randall Terry, but you are missing the bipartisanship of the support for the government action. The decision to let the government push for this action in Congress was unanimous. While Barack Obama later said he wished he had acted differently, at the time even he did nothing to oppose the action.
Tom Harkin was one of the biggest proponents and Congressional leaders on behalf of intervention on behalf of the parents. Jesse Jackson was another big supporter.

guesswhaturwrong:
were forced to pay for MORE EXPENSIVE HEALTHCARE AND MORE TAXES for the employees and facilities they offshore to India wouldnt they stop offshoring and rehire more American citizens as it would be cheaper?
========
What would the mechanism be to determine if a job had been “off-shored”?
Why not just make it illegal for companies to open overseas branches or facilities?

where in the constitution you find that power?
Posted by: Fascist Hyena
nowadays, it doesn’t seem to really matter,
and it doesn’t matter what side of the political spectrum you’re on.. each side justifies their actions by using it’s own analysis of the….. wait for it..constitution..
any if recent history is a guide, and I’m not an expert, but even something as controversial as ‘enhanced interrogation’ seems to be constitutional or not…… depending where one’s loyalties lie.
why do you need the constitution when it seems that all that is required is a ‘signing statement’ to get around anything in it…….

I think Friar Tuck has got it about right, but this one may be a closer call than most. The only power congress could claim for doing this mandate would be the commerce clause, which has been pounded so flat over the course of time that when held up to the light of reason it scarcely casts a shadow. However, there are at least a couple of Supreme Court cases suggesting that this might be taking it too far.

Nevada polls show GOP’s Danny Tarkanian leading Harry Reid, 49-38.
Go ahead, Harry, ram it through!

===It was Bush and the Republicans that pushed NAFTA and all that wasnt it?===
How do you know if anyone responds to you if you don’t read the responses? No, it wasn’t Bush. It was Clinton. It is one of his proudest achievements. If you had even watched one of the democratic debates, you would know that. Obama spit on it, which is why Clinton hates him. Even though his wife claimed she was against it too. But that is another story…for another day.

“According to the NY Times Reagan’s lowest approval rating was 41%, and that came at the end of the second year”
According to Gallup: Indeed, although 1983 began for Reagan with a 35% job approval rating — the worst of his administration — things started to look better.

‘but this one may be a closer call than most’
Posted by: Fascist Hyena
but there’s the rub, if the constitution is the major determining factor as to what’s what with regard to policy decisions, as so many claim, then the ways with which all concerned ‘get around’ the constitution with methods like signing statements make the ‘constitutional arguments’ sort of moot..
and I’m not saying that the constitution doesn’t matter,. certainly it seems that there are some issues that are semi sacrosanct, again depending on POV…but, we either take an ‘evangelical’ position that everything in the document is ‘word’ and inviolate based upon perceptions 200+ years ago.. or the document is open for interpretation, and depending on who is ‘in power’ at that time, that will determine the interpretation

“I did not realize this was the major goal of the Republican party.
What was that big new Medicare entitlement Bush passed all about?”
realizing Medicare is popular with Seniors makes cowards out of Republicans.
Do you think Medicare and SS is a Ponzi scheme and should be abolished?

Where there is smoke there is fire and that is why so many people are rightly concerned about the government
Posted by: JAMES
and that also counts for torture, judicial malfeasance, terror fear for political gain, by the Bushies…… looking forward to investigations of those republicans thugs and terrorists

Do you think Medicare and SS is a Ponzi scheme and should be abolished?
=======
No, but I think their financial state indicates they are in serious need of overhaul. Especially Medicare.

Axey:If you had even watched one of the democratic debates, you would know that. Obama spit on it, which is why Clinton hates him
=========
To be fair, Obama trashed everything about the Clinton economy during the campaign.

I’m just giddy with delight about the wheels coming off the whole thing.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena
that is the clearest statement of what the ‘rightwing’/republicans wants…chaos in america…thanks for admitting it openly…

EVER GO INTO A WAL-MART ON A SATURDAY AFTERNOON? A GOOD LOOK AROUND WILL TELL YOU EXACTLY WHY HEALTH CARE COSTS ARE SKYROCKETING!! I AM SIX ONE AND 210. I FEEL LIKE A DWARF TRYING TO TRAVERSE AROUND ALL THOSE 350lb PLUS LINEBACKERS. A LOOK OF WHAT THEY ARE BUYING WILL ALSO TELL YOU “WHY” THEY ARE SO BIG. AND WHILE I AM ON THAT KICK – THEY ALSO DRESS LIKE SLOBS. Not an ins exec – just a trucker from Cleveland.

There is also the fact that the benefits I am getting from SS represent about a 1.5% annualized return on the investment I was forced to make against my will. I would have made 7% with my eyes shut.
But the Left eternally believes that people cannot manage their lives, but instead those lives must be managed by exceptional persons like themselves. And there are legions of serfs eager to be led around by the nose. We see both types here daily: the serfs, and those who would manage the serfs’ lives. Two rather contemptible species, but they put on a wonderful comedy together.

“the investment I was forced to make against my will.”
You’re getting closer’
Just say it. Abolish Medicare and SS

Manitu – you are spot on. Ditto on trying to traverse around 350lb linebackers. Their diet is a primary cause for health care cots skyrocketing.

Just say it. Abolish Medicare and SS
Posted by: Socialist Jackal |
Just say it. Fix Medicare and SS.

I just don’t want to pay my money for health care to illigal aliens and poor people without jobs. I don’t want to pay for your health care if you cannot afford it Why should it be my problem? If a person cannot afford health care…they cannot afford it!!! Next thing is helping poor people buy cars…(oh, I forgot we are doing that) I want to join a co-op or do something in my control to obtain heath care…Or maybe pay cash? Do we think health care is free? If you cannot afford health care…stop having babies or smoking or excercise or something. This enire issue reminds me of the welfare debate we had a decade ago. It is about a taking from the haves and giving to the have nots. Personal responsiblity should come first!! I should not be responsibly for some body elses bills!!
Democratic voters look for a Government handout and people like Obama are more than glad to spend OPM (other peoples money) to get elected and stay elected. Spread the wealth he promised. Heck if it goes like they want it, I won’t have the incentive to work and I may just move to Mexico. Why should I work just to pay someone elses bills?
Tax the rich they say…well I think that golden egg is about tapped out. Throw the stupid carbon caps bill and sending Brazil 2B to drill for oil we will buy and all the other stupid crazy stuff our government does…well you get the idea. Maybe we can beg China for money.
Other than defense, what government does the government acually run well? Schools? Social Security? Medicare? All of these program are broken….so we want another program? The bottom line is this….we cannot afford it!!! At least us working people. It sounds cold…but it is reality.

“Do you think Medicare and SS is a Ponzi scheme and should be abolished?”
I think if we need a car to get back and forth to work we should first fix the car before we insist on buying a six bedroom mansion on the lake.

‘I’ll leave you to deal with it after I have concluded a long, happy, successful and luxurious life.”
I don’t believe a word you say. You’re just another right-wing snake oil salesman. Why else would somebody as ‘successful’ as you take the time to give helpful advice to all the ‘losers’ as you call anybody that disagrees with you. It’s all a another lie.

Hey…I have idea. We provide a pubic option for a six month limit. Here is the catch…they must be the right wieght for thier height. Not smoke, or have any signs of addictions. They must prove they work out at least 3 days a week for 30 min and they take nutrition classes. They promise not to have babys on the plan and they cannot be illegaly in this country….I am all for it then!!!

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Can someone explain to me, if 10-20% of the population is lacking healthcare coverage, why is Obama super-re-engineering 100% of the United States healthcare industry?
It’s like Obama knocking down the Whitehouse and rebuilding it because Michelle wants to remodel one room.

Posted by: Dan Schwartz | Aug 23, 2009 A :27:24 PM
****
A couple questions for Dan S. If you’re not subsidized and you’re paying into the plan in order to get into a larger pool and make insurance more affordable, why wouldn’t you be able to get maternity? (I don’t mean you necessarily, I mean anyone.) Or are you envisioning the public option as something akin to expansion of Medicaid and fully subsidized? Or are you saying that only for the people who do receive government subsidies. I’m not following. And second, does coffee count as an addiction? :)
Yes, I realize you were responding to the Walmart shopper situation which I was unaware of as I’ve never shopped there. I absolutely agree we have to do something about obesity in this country.
Also, can someone people tell me what proposals or amendments were offered regarding checking the status of patients to ensure they aren’t here illegally besides e-verify? That’s the only one I’m aware of, and I know there are kinks that would have to be worked out to use that as well as privacy issues. I’m not busting chops. I want to look it up and people have said there were a few, I think. I’d like to know which ones they were talking about to do some research.
Also, Fascist, where did you get these numbers: “Did you know that every day 188 people in the UK and 71 in Canada die because they’re on waiting lists for treatment that would have saved their lives?” Are there comparable numbers for France, Switzerland, and the US? I’d like to check it out.

“why is Obama super-re-engineering 100% of the United States healthcare industry?”
Where do you get that from? I assume that you think you have SOME factual basis for that assertion, but of course that would imply you are attempting to argue rationally.

I am saying this: I consider a public option, medical welfare and I would not be in the plan because I want to keep my work plan. But like welfare….we should not subsidize bad behavior and neonatal care etc…The person that uses medical welfare should be going to school to get a job and then have kids while on a employer provide plan. We need more producers in the country and less dependent people. If people choose to be fat, have kids or engage in behavior that ends up costing me money…it does not work for me. If I choose to drink excessive alcohol, smoke, and eat like a pig…and I am paying for it….so be it. It is my problem. If I pay my hard earned taxes to some welfare program….they I should have a say how that money is spent.

Dan S, I think you are mixing up two different issues.
You said:
“I consider a public option, medical welfare”
The problem with your approach is that you are ignoring the fact that it is pretty much a done deal that there will be government subsidized health insurance with or without a public option.
Would you rather give taxpayer subsidies to people who can only choose a private insurer, or would you give taxpayer subsidies to people who can choose either a private or public plan?
Thats the question left on the table at this point.
If there is a public plan, that decreases the cost of the subsidies, a much better deal for taxpayers.

Would you rather give taxpayer subsidies to people who can only choose a private insurer, or would you give taxpayer subsidies to people who can choose either a private or public plan?
Thats the question left on the table at this point.
If there is a public plan, that decreases the cost of the subsidies, a much better deal for taxpayers.
Posted by: Flash Override | Aug 23, 2009 6:16:18 PM
***
Ah… and everything Flash said. Good point, Flash Override.

Freedom to be fat is what America is about… what lofty goals.

BH what is the functional difference between a public option and a government option?
Most of us believe in government by the people, for the people. The biggest obstacle to that is of course the influence of the rich and powerful over the mechanisms of government.
Still, a government option is a public option, because despite its failings, government is still more accountable than private.

“Amazing that Cuba has put together such a marvelous healthcare system even though they have run out of toilet paper.”
Isn’t it amazingly sad that such a poor country has a healthcare system remotely on par with our own when we are the richest country in the world?

Alyson wrote: “I absolutely agree we have to do something about obesity in this country.”
***
Wow. Didn’t mean to touch a nerve. It’s a health issue, and it raises medical costs. I have a sister, an uncle and two cousins who are obese and I love them very much, and I mean no disrespect or to hurt anyone’s feelings. I shouldn’t have alluded to Manitu’s WalMart post because it was harsh and snarky, so I’m sorry. But it IS a problem because it’s unhealthy. I don’t suggest government intervention, but I do hope we can get at the heart of why it’s becoming more of an epidemic, particularly amongst children and youth. I meant it in the same vein as I’d mean–
I absolutely agree we have to do something about unwanted, high-risk teen pregnancies in this country.”
or
I absolutely agree we have to do something about alcoholism, smoking and prescription drug abuse in this country.”
or
I absolutely agree we have to do something about the lack of parent involvement in education in some communities.”
or
I absolutely agree we have to do something about high high school drop out rates in this country.”
I would suggest this isn’t particularly Leftist.

Flash Overdrive and Alyson perform an exotic dialogue in economic baby-talk, while Semanticleo swallows WHO nonsense whole.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | Aug 23, 2009 6:42:28 PM
***
So, I ask a genuine question about the source of numbers posted regarding health care in other countries, and rather than give a substantive response to that or other posts, this is what gets posted?

Axey: do you have to be so partisan? Why does it matter that it was Clinton or Bush who created NAFTA? They are both out of power now and Obama is in charge. Obama is not reversing NAFTA? He isnt requiring companies to provide healthcare to all employees. He isnt making it illegal for companies to offhore jobs to India or Mexico or wherever that isnt the USA. In fact I think if the law stated that employees who work overseas were taxed double or triple and had to pay for health coverage say ten times more expensive than the norm, the practice of offshoring jobs would end tomorrow. Look at UBS and how these companies even hide their profits from the tax man. Its no different of a concept. Doing both of these things would get more people rehired and everyone would have healtcare without passing a $1 Trillion dollar bogus healthcare bill thats more about delivering taxpayer money to the governments pockets and the pockets of their cronies in big corporate healthcare who are salivating to get the ink onto those big cushy corporate government contracts. The government pays contractors like $400 for a hammer and $20,000 for a toilet – what do you think they will pay a contractor who does a surgery? Bottom line people without jobs dont pay as much income taxes. Those with jobs are more productive and more deserving of healthcare plans.

guesswhaturwrong what does your post have to do with Health care reform?
Try again SHEEPLE.
$700 hammers have nothing to do with how the government handles health care.
Walter Reed Hospital. Good, and run efficently, or bad and ineefective?
Isn’t that a more better comparison of health care and the government?
SECREG_756

With Obama’s 10 year budget projection going up by 2 trillion it now appears that the nation debt at the end of the 10 year projection will be approaching 21.5 trillion.
Not one democrat or republican has addressed the ever looming national debt.
And some of you sweet people think we can afford national healthcare? I wonder what your grandkids’ grandkids would think of your greed?
THINK NEW CONGRESS IN 2010!

hobokenjohn, How’s the Clam Bar?
What does a S.A.H.C.P. have to do with Socialism? For the record, it’s not socialism.
SECREG_756

Secreg: First of all I am not a dem so I am not a Sheeple. Second of all one drop of water does not matter in an ocean of mismanagement and fiscal irresponsibility. The Walter Reed Hospital would be the drop of water. The $400 hammer is the perfect analogy for government run anything. Contractors charge the government in huge multipliers simply because they know they will pay period. Here is a better example of government run healthcare Medicaid and Medicare $33 trillion dollars in debt and counting!!!

Alyson, no nerve touched! And MY feelings aren’t hurt (but I can’t speak for someone who might be obese). It’s just a comment.
You and others say it’s a health issue! Yes, for the person who is obese but not for anyone else. It’s not like obesity is contagious! It’s not like smoking in your face! Or driving under the influence! And to say that it raises everyone else’s cost is just being very selfish. What about the infant that is born with a heart defect and requires 5-6 surgeries before he or she is even a year old? And maybe another few surgeries before he or she turns 10? Are you going to complain that costs too much? See it’s that attitude that encourages rationing of healthcare. And the irony is it comes from some who deny that the proposed public option will involve rationing of healthcare!!

“Obama approval is -14% today, the lowest ever.”
No, no, no, no, no! Obama’s approval rating is 48%, down one point since yesterday (Rasmussen). His Approval Index is -14, not -14%. Big difference.
Obama’s Gallup approval rating is 54%, UP one point since yesterday.
And so it goes.

Guesswhaturwrong SHEEPLE,good point. The final bill has not been written.If your point is not addressed, and it’s a good point, then call your Congreesman or Women. Call your Senator and demand to know whats going on. He is supposed to be working for your best interests, right?
What is happening now is many are trying to kill the ability to draft any kind of bill including a S.A.G.H.C. plan. and there are those who won’t approve a bill without it.
Get two bills side by side and then decide. Remember, there is a cost for insuring a large percentage of currently uninsured people.
Take the reighns away from BIG CORPORATE INTERESTS. Do whats best for the SHEEPLE.
Every person living outdoors is not a drug addict or a lazy bum. Eeryone who currently does not have health care is not a person seeking entitlements.
THE MIC is the MOST insidious group of GIANT CORPORATIONS that ever ruled over the SHEEPLE of our great country.
If this was 1776, we would be revolting against them. Higher costs, lower benefits, higher co-pays, less drugs on plan,certain doctors refusing certain plans, exclusions for pre existing conditons, not covering any illnesses related to a pre existing condition, not truly accountable in court.
SECREG_756

Posted by: Alyson | Aug 23, 2009 8:20:09 PM
Thanks. I keep trying to convince myself that the GOP isn’t quite as nutty and the fringe isn’t quite as widespread as it seems.
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My problem is that I keep trying to convince myself that the GOP has some rational people in it…or at least some people with a heart. I keep failing.
The fringe (far-right wing) isn’t wide spread. However, it knows that “the squeaky wheel typically gets the grease”.

If this was 1776, we would be revolting against them……
Posted by: SECREG_756
but it’s not 1776, and to draw that analogy is foolish….
‘IF’ ..?…that’s what your argument comes down to.. ‘if’?

We can fool most people, but we can’t put one over on the likes of Numeros.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | Aug 23, 2009 11:43:02 PM
****
“Obama approval is -14% today, the lowest ever.”
No, no, no, no, no! Obama’s approval rating is 48%, down one point since yesterday (Rasmussen). His Approval Index is -14, not -14%. Big difference.
Obama’s Gallup approval rating is 54%, UP one point since yesterday.
And so it goes.
Posted by: Numeros | Aug 23, 2009 8:51:49 PM
*****
You’re right. You can’t and you didn’t. Good on Numeros.

Posted by: Jim | Aug 23, 2009 11:51:15 PM
Another boon doggle! Co-op is another name for public plan. Trust me once our money grubbing government gets there hands our our money they will feed to monster until the control everything.
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Kinda like the insurance companies right now…Huh.

Alyson, sorry I tried to word my comments in a non-accusatory way. Maybe it didn’t work. I was really saying that the “attitude” was Leftist. The Left does want to make the world a better place. They do want to make a difference. Those are fine and noble endeavors. But I am a strong believer in self-determination and Individual Freedom. I believe that people have the right to make their own decisions–even if they are bad decisions. Now certainly there are situations where stepping in and involving yourself are heroic (i.e., helping during an accident or running into a burning building to rescue someone, etc.). But to me it is meddling when we try to change someone’s lifestyle just because we don’t approve of that lifestyle–even if it is unhealthy. If a person wants to be helped that is a different matter. But if they don’t want to be helped than we should leave well enough alone!
Some school districts have already banned sodas. And we already have some state legislatures considering implementing a tax on sodas. So once again, the majority who enjoy sodas and who aren’t obese will either lose their freedom to chose or have to pay more for that choice. This is nothing more than controlling what we drink (or eat) and what products we buy. THAT is what I object to!
THAT is why this healthcare reform is such a crock! It is nothing more than using a populist issue as a means towards controlling our behavior and what products we must or cannot purchase.

Who is more dishonest:
A)He who is exposed misrepresenting a statistic by 1,400%
B)He who attempts to belittle the whistle-blower
Answer: B – because of the possibility that A was simply mistaken.
_______________________________________
A)Posted by: mjishernameo | Aug 23, 2009 6:37:46 PM – Obama approval is -14% today, the lowest ever. America doesn’t want this massive increase in government.
Posted by: Numeros | Aug 23, 2009 8:51:49 PM – No, no, no, no, no! Obama’s approval rating is 48%, down one point since yesterday (Rasmussen). His Approval Index is -14, not -14%. Big difference. Obama’s Gallup approval rating is 54%, UP one point since yesterday.
B)Posted by: Fascist Hyena | Aug 23, 2009 11:43:02 PM – Sometimes we are outwitted by a clever fellow such as Numeros, who sees that a one-point rise in a Gallup poll portends the turning of the tide, and the passage of the Socialist Death Panel bill. Curses! We can fool most people, but we can’t put one over on the likes of Numeros.

james posted “The bottom line is under the leadership of President Obama and the Democrats the deficit has increased to a whopping 9 TRILLION DOLLARS. The irresponsible spending of the Democrats must end now before the US goes bankrupt”.
So that is proposed deficit spending….unlike the ACTUAL MASSIVE SPENDING of $trillions under a Bush admin and GOP congress – that we are ACTUALLY paying for by selling debt to the Chinses…
What say you about this ? or are you pikcing a partisan tack here?

gary – understandable sentiment on your part….but just about every single scholar of the Great Depression, and nealry every single economists (right or left) would disagree with you…
We have to spend for the moment…or the Great Recession, the Mr Bush left us will turn into a Great Depression II.
Good news, is that the Fed are starting to rein in a number of the policies they put in place as the economy is showing signs of getting better sooner than expected….
And we have to fi healthcare, or the govt costs in Medicare and Medicaid today WILL bankrupt us …the is the goal here, to stop this.

Posted by: able | Aug 24, 2009 6:10:50 AM
Dear Ya’all, hasn’t it occured to anyone yet? In a frenzy to cut costs, insurance companies are coming up with “Death Panels” on their own. The ONLY way to make that STOP, is to take the profit out of it.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nice try Able.
But, even a drunk off the street knows that the insurance companies came up with “Death Panel” a long time ago…to increase profit!

Public “Co-ops” are Government Co-ops.
Posted by: Green Tea | Aug 24, 2009 9:35:44 AM
***
The truth of the matter is that normally a nonprofit insurance co-op is a company owned by its members and beneficiaries — the same folks own the co-op and are insured by the company. There are issues with co-ops (obtaining start-up funds, building infrastructure from scratch, providing any real kind of competition to private insurance companies) which make a big, go for it public option a better option, IMO, although a lot depends on how they’re set up. Neither has anything to do with a government takeover of health care,particularly health care delivery, although the government obviously would be involved with pooling and payment via a public option. Many people are all for that, particularly when provided with accurate information.

Now, imagine the multi-megaton eruption of media outrage if Bush had done this:
—Barack Obama already has had a tough time with seniors on the health-care reform initiative, and for good reasons. The latest news from Social Security won’t make them any happier about it. The Social Security administration has CANCELED COST-OF-LIVING ADJUSTMENTS (COLAS) FOR THE NEXT **TWO** YEARS, which means the fixed income on which these seniors rely will freeze at current levels. However, their MEDICARE PREMIUMS WILL STILL INCREASE, which means they will get less money over the next two years, the first declines in SSA in more than 30 years.—
But, we do need $800,000,000,000 for Porkulus Stimulus Maximus.

America will never have a single payer healthcare system because Americans do not trust their own freely elected government. Americans distrust and fear the officials they freely elected. Instead, Americans trust insurance companies. It is okay for an insurance company to deny a policy because of a pre-existing condition, to delay payment on a claim while the patient gets sicker, to refuse a claim while the patient dies, or to pay a small part of the claim resulting in huge copays that will bankrupt the policy holder. Americans call this system free choice and free enterprise because they can chose the insurance company that kills or bankrupts them. Americans like having a choice. Americans believe that in a single payer system their own freely elected government will “take over” healthcare. This will result in “death panels” of politicians deciding who will live and die. Americans prefer the existing system where insurance CEOs decide who lives and dies. Many insurance companies will offer this and Americans know that competition is good. Competition has done so much for healthcare already. The price of your healthcare insurance keeps going down every month because of all the competition and free enterprise and hard work of the insurers. Americans believe their own freely elected government is incapable of handling so big a business as healthcare. A big company like General Motors, AIG, or Enron would be far better at managing healthcare than the government. They also fear their tax dollars will be spent inappropriately. This could result in a band aid being given to a person who did not pay taxes. That would be socialism if that happened. It only takes one band aid for democracy to perish and socialism to take over. I don’t understand why were are even debating this issue when every American knows we have the best healthcare system in the world and nothing needs to change.

We do not need a failed health care system modeled after the one that is collapsing in Canada. We need a distinctly American system. John Mackey’s plan (Whole Foods guy). In his plan patients know what procedures cost and that helps drive prices down.
Can any of you tell me what a “wellness checkup” or visit for the flu costs? That is why the price of healthcare is so high – none of us knows what the procedures cost.
Another reason medical procedures cost too much is because the docs have to buy malpractice insurance and pay for it by charging patients.

Some school districts have already banned sodas. And we already have some state legislatures considering implementing a tax on sodas. So once again, the majority who enjoy sodas and who aren’t obese will either lose their freedom to chose or have to pay more for that choice. This is nothing more than controlling what we drink (or eat) and what products we buy. THAT is what I object to!
***
Yeah, I don’t have a problem with sin taxes on really unhealthy foods or alcohol. I like the idea of legalized pot and taxing the heck out of it. I suppose you could make your own or home school and drink pop, no?
We just have different takes on it.

Alyson — Taxing sodas, really? Are you for the government taxing everything that is not healthy to pay for the health care reform? I guess this throws no tax increase on anyone not making over $250K huh? I bought an ice coffee from McD’s the other day and paid 30 cents in taxes on it. Don’t you think the govt is deep enough into our wallets yet?

Americans of all reaces, creeds, political affiliation need to be outraged at the censorship being created by this administration! Democrats (I may be changing parties very soon) and Republicans should be demanding that our administration go on record in support of free speech weither it be for or against our party! President Obama’s words were “Change”, why can’t people that are opposed to the health care plan speak? Why can’t they ask questions that I never even thought of. I probably won’t change my mind on health care, but I DO want to hear the other side. It is going to pass so why can’t we use the questions presented by the other side to tweek the plan and make it work for everybody? Isn’t that the purpose? Ms. Pelosi, Mr. Frank and Mr. Reid no longer represent me, they have gone too far to the left even for me..

Taxing sodas, really? Are you for the government taxing everything that is not healthy to pay for the health care reform? I guess this throws no tax increase on anyone not making over $250K huh? I bought an ice coffee from McD’s the other day and paid 30 cents in taxes on it. Don’t you think the govt is deep enough into our wallets yet?
Posted by: lfrichar | Aug 24, 2009 11:50:02 AM
***
It’ll never fly, but I’m a health nut with an organic garden of my own veggies and all that, so I’m not all that worried about it. That’s my self-centered response. Practically, it’s not a good idea. I confess I was just being contrary there– but I really think soda is a horrid thing.

obama rips phony claims of healthcare? you mean the one where we will have the same care as members of congress witthout raising taxes…that phony claim?

I guess this throws no tax increase on anyone not making over $250K huh?
***
Also, just to be clear, when I said that, it was from me, not Obama, but nice mixing it all up into a tossed salad there as if I was the Prez.

Universal Healthcare for all. And to those who support the private insurance companies, what do you say to the tens of millions of middle class Americans who had to file for Medical Bankruptcies.

James L. wrote: “Finally figured out Obama has no idea what is going on. He has not read any of the five (5) versions of a health bill.”
Not true. That rumor started when Obama was asked to comment on a false claim that appeared in Investor’s Business Daily. IBD had claimed there was a provision which would make individual private medical insurance illegal. Obama responded, “You know, I have to say that I am not familiar with the provision you’re talking about.” Simply, he could not possibly be familiar with a provision that doesn’t exist.
From there, Rush Limbaugh, Fox Folks, and other right wing sources began spreading the mistruth that the President hasn’t read the bill. And like a cancer, the lie has mutated and spread ever further.

Gee……Let’s take a look at some of the governments very recent work in health care.
Over 100,000 backlogged payment requests by the VA.
17,000 vets/servicemen.women recently got letters incorrectly, indicating that they had ALS. Nice touch, Uncle Sam.
Yep, I sure want the government involved in my health care. This would be a joke, if it wasn’t so tragic.

Posted by: cwg | Aug 24, 2009 2:21:59 PM
Great example of not thinking for yourself.

Even my 13 year old daughter knows the response to “how do you tell when a politician is lying?” – His lips are moving!!
How long does Obama think he can fool the public. He and Pelosi want to destroy health insurance as we know it today, and put it all in the hands of the government. Interesting, since at the same time, they refuse to commit to using :public option” insurance themselves, and refuse to acknowledge they gain access to a better plan (for $503/year as a perk) for obtaining medical care than the average government worker can elect.
It is time to consider the next elections – make sure Pelosi, Boxer, Franks and the rest no longer get to pig at the public trough and us into a welfare,socialist state.
A simple rule of thumb for the next election – simply do not vote for an incumbent. If we fire enough of those members of the Washington gang, maybe the rest will remember they are supposed to work for us.

I find it very gratifying that Rush Limbaugh’s fervant hope that Obama fails has now been achieved. Obama’s unfavorability rating is now nearly the same as GWB’s after 8 years of his presidency. America is already sick to death of this lighweight egomaniacal nitwit. Earth to Obama: we dont want your visions; they are merely hallucinations. All but the 30% confirmed Marxists who form the base of the Democratic Party have had it with this fool. The Marxists can only get 30% of the US vote; I predict a route for anyone who supports him

“I find it very gratifying that Rush Limbaugh’s fervant hope that Obama fails has now been achieved. Obama’s unfavorability rating is now nearly the same as GWB’s after 8 years of his presidency.”
Not quite. Obama’s unfavorable rating last week ranged from 38% – 51%, depending on the pollster.
Bush’s lowest unfavorable ratings in his last year in office ranged from 60% – 66%, depending on the pollster.

Brandon…you can try to blame the healthcare failure on the GOP if you want; however this was years in the coming, so a more fair blame game (if you want to play that) would be to blame everyone before THE ONE. It is needs reform, no one is denying that, just not the broad brush hury up and gitter done mentality of oblama.

“Bush’s lowest unfavorable ratings in his last year in office ranged from 60% – 66%, depending on the pollster.”
You mean 2009?
Because approval ratings for Bush were as bad as 76% disapproval with him struggling to get above 30% approval the last 3 months of 2008.

J Biden…don’t know what your problem is, I passed on a quote that I thought was appropriate. I am sorry you feel you must be so snippy today.

The president continues to be
dishonest in this debate by
emphasizing the “illegal immigrant”
coverage concern and the “death panel”
concern!
We the people do Not want a “public
option” in this reform because of the
fact that many businesses will choose
to drop the insurance coverage they
provide their employees, forcing them
onto the “public plan”!
The only misinformation coming out about this comes from the president!
No Public Option, Period!
No Way. Get Over It!

“I would say your LYING! Care to back up with REAL proof that “tens of Millions” have filed because of medical bills?
Posted by: Mike_C | Aug 24, 2009 2:58:01 PM”
Wapo jun 09:”Sixty-two percent of all bankruptcies filed in 2007 were linked to medical expenses, according to a nationwide study released today by the American Journal of Medicine. That’s nearly 20 percentage points higher than that pool of respondents reported were connected to medical costs in 2001.
Of those who filed for bankruptcy in 2007, nearly 80 percent had health insurance. Respondents who reported having insurance indicated average expenses of just under $18,000. Respondents who filed and lacked insurance had average medical bills of nearly $27,000.
Since 2007, the number of Americans without insurance has increased and filing for bankruptcy has become more difficult due to more stringent laws, according to the report.”

“The so-called “public option” — should not overshadow a larger attempt at health care reform.”
And may I ask why not? The rest of the bill doesn’t read that well either!
How about you just take the real part of the 47 million (some say maybe 17 million) and offer them a group plan and leave us alone?

I support a National Referendum on Universal Healthcare, and yes, this is for US citizens only, deport all the illegals for all I care. What we want is a Universal Healthcare for all US citizens.

ReganfanSHEEPLE, the majority of the country favors a S.A.G.H.C.P.
What is that your reason for not wanting it?
Please read up on the pay or play option.
Then come back with your reason. It’s not right or wrong. Each Amrtican has the inalienable right to believe in what they are for or against.
Whether you are for or against health reform is not as important as knowing why.
CEO’S of Giant Corporations are spending 1.5 million a day to help defeat a government run program. Do you believe the CEO of HUMANA cares about the SHEEPLE in our great country?
SECREG_756

Mikec, good point. I would submit good reasoning on the clunkers and the rest of the politico putdowns.
Good reason for concern.
IMO
Thanks
SECREG_756

obamaisaliar SHEEPLE, there are dozens of proposals destined to be stricken from the final bill.
Obama said government paid for abortions will be one of them.
SHEEPLEobamaisaliar, when the final bill goes before the House and Senate
if that clause is still in the bill, then obamaisaliar will be right.
Until then, picking out random non binding suggestions to support your point is fear mongering or lying.
GIANT HEALTH CARE CORPORATIONS want this bill D.O.A. CEO’s of the 6 MAJOR HEALTH CARRIERS do not want their multi million salary and compensation packages messed with.
If the final bill allows for funded abortions, call your Senator and Congressman or women and tell them to vote no.
Until then, why not wait to see what’s in the bill begore you kill it?
SHEEPLE, there are only 6 players in the health care industry. 35-45% of their costs are administrative.
Add onto that their need to make a profit and figure out how much of every dollar goes to actual health care.
SECREG_756

Big Pharma with Obama are spending plenty of money to make his healthcare plan happen. Why is Canada calling their healthcare system “sick” and “imploding”? Why does Canada want to consider going back to offering more privatization and competition? Why are the budget shortfalls and long waits in Canada so severe that they may have to cut 6,000 surgeries? Why are we rushing to spend trillions we don’t have to adopt a failing healthcare system? It’s nuts!

Hey Catherine,
To add to your questions, why is Canada cutting 6,000 surgeries when they already have 1 million people waiting for surgery and another 1 million waiting to see the specialist who will prescribe surgery?
Yep, this is the plan we want here. Let’s get healthcare as great as Canada – NOT.

Josh Goodien said it all:
Health-Care nightmare in the U.S………….1) Get serious illness…………..2) unable to work, lose employee sponsored health insurance………………..3) labeled as UN-INSURABLE by private insurance……………….4) Sell house and personal property to try to pay medical bills…………………5) File for Bankruptcies and becomes a destitute……………..6) Worked 30 yrs for NOTHING, NOTHING !!!…………7)Now and only now can qualify for govt assitance…………….8) 0 or ZERO medical bankruptcies in European countries with Universal Healthcare……………..Pathetic US healthcare system.’
Private insurance has too many ‘gotchas’ to provide true coverage for the very ill. Health insurance reform will finally restore some desperately needed fairness to the system. Health insurance coverage is a necessity, not a luxury that only the wealthy should be able to afford when truly ill.

It is sad that anyone is fooled by the blatant lies coming from the right about health care reform.
Private insurance isn’t working for too many Americans. Private insurance controls which doctors you can see, who can be your private physician, what treatments you can have. Private insurance makes doctors wait months for their money, often making them fill out forms multiple times. All the bunk the far right is saying is true about public health care is what private insurance does now.
Besides a public insurance option we need a lot of other reform to bring health care costs down before none of us can afford it. It cost too much to become a doctor, lessening the number of doctors and leaving many with too-high student loans to pay off. The crazy billing system private insurance demands of doctors needs to be stream-lined. There is a lot to be done to improve the quality of health care and keep costs down.

Just to show the unjust means that health insurance companies use to insure their high profits and corporate salaries, read about Michelle’s law. This is an excerpt: ‘Michelle Morse was a student at a Plymouth State University when she was diagnosed with colon cancer. Although her doctor suggested she take a leave of absence from school, Michelle Morse maintained a full course schedule in order to keep her health insurance coverage.’ Can you imagine doing chemo, surgery and going to school full-time? How good would that be for your chances of your body healing? Michelle didn’t make it, as she sacrificed so her family wouldn’t be burdened with bankrupting medical bills.
Thankfully, people pushed the law to prevent this, through state by state and then federally.
The issues like that of Michelle’s law show the need for government regulation of our health care system. Leaving the rules up to the private health insurance system is not possible. Like any business, the inherent heartlessness of our private insurance system is simply a result of their mandate.
Their mandate, like any other business, is to maximize profits for their shareholders and unfortunately also to reward their corporate leaders with large excessive salaries. To put it simply, they are in it to make money, not to provide health care, that is what the hospitals and clinics and doctors do.
So when you hear that the industry is spending more than a million a day to fight health care reform, realize they are fighting to keep their high profits, not to provide health care.
Think about the motivation of senators who take huge contributions from health insurance companies and then bad-mouth a public insurance option. Who’s side are they on, ours or corporate interests?

James Danley, if they put the two of us in a room, added to economists, two health care professionals,added two people smarter than they were.
WE THE PEOPLE would work out a bill that helps AMERICAN SHEEPLE. while the CANTOR’S, GRASSLEY’S, BAUCUS’S, BOEHNER’S, CORYN’S of the world woul;d still be shouting the talking points given to them by their CORPORATE MASTERS.
WE THE PEOPLE, with all of our differences, can have meaningful dialogue above the CORRUPT PAID FOR POLITICAL TYPES SCREAMING about DEATH PANELS and KILLING GRAN!
SECREG_756

People, encourage others to join in to discuss health care reform.
WE THE PEOPLE can take back our great country. WE just need to know who are the people causing AMERICAN’s the most pain and do something about it.
SECREG_756

SECREG_756, President Bush had signed an executive order banning federal funds for international groups that promote or perform abortions. President Obama rescinded that executive order. So now federal money can and probably is going to groups who promote or perform abortions. While likely not directly paying for abortions, the money does support abortions.
I am not aware of any federal law that specifically authorizes the federal government to pay for abortions. But I am quite certain that there is no federal law that prohibits paying for an abortion either–especially since abortion is legal.
Even as a pro-lifer, and as appalling I believe abortion to be–murdering the most innocent among us–a private health insurance company has the right to cover abortions. At least, I have the option of NOT having that insurance company for my own healthcare needs. My strongest objections would be if the public option were to cover abortion, because I know that implementing a public option will eliminate the private sector making the public option the sole provider of healthcare insurance–thus forcing those who oppose abortion to financially support abortion.

SECREG_756, I believe Weiner said he wouldn’t sign a bill without some form of public insurance available as an option for people to buy. He sees, rightly, in my opinion, that private health insurance companies will keep raising their premiums exponentially until they have some true competition.
As to your question, I have no idea what the ‘Stand Alone Government Sponsored Health Care Plan’ you quote is all about, so I can’t say whether I like it or not.
My way of thinking, why try to re-invent the wheel. We have Medicare, working well enough that its customers will go to the mat to keep it and only running at 4% overhead.
So why create a whole other set of government offices when Medicare’s already exist?
Expanding an existing, working system is much easier and cheaper than starting from scratch.
The Medicare for all plan is easily the most workable public insurance plan.

“85% of Americans are satisfied with their current healthcare coverage.”
When Time polled those same people on how good of a job the private health insurance companies were doing in providing health care coverage, they responded:
7% Excellent
28% Good
36% Only Fair
24% Poor
When asked “Would it be better to pretty much stay with the current health care system and just make some minor adjustments, or does the system need major reform?” they responded:
43% Minor Adjustments
55% Major Reform

“Health Care Reform as being pushed by this Administration is dead in the water. No one wants it and no one will vote for it.”
Are you sure “no one” wants it? CNN showed 50% of Americans in favor, and even Fox News showed 34% of registered voters in favor.

James Danley, I looked into your 85% number. It looked to me the statement was , 85% of Americans who have health
insurance, have it furnished by their employees.
Here is a good story about the rationing of health care.
A patient went to visit his psychiatrist to the tune of $5000 dollars. His doctor did not accept health care and the patient had to pay for service after or before each session.
His health care plan stated it allowed 20 visits per year. And after a $1000 dollar deductable the plan would pay 50% of allowable charges.
After providing United health Care with the paid bills for the year,he receievd a letter from UNited Health Care. The letter explained that according to their independent sources they would allow for $50 dollars per visit.The actual charge per visit was $200. That was the accepted rate for a psychiatrist to do talk therapy for 75 minutes and discuss medical situations.
Much to the patients chagrin, the 50% of reasonable charges the insurance company paid, after his $1000 dollar deuctable, was a total of 20 visits at $50 dollars an hour. So the deductable cost the patient $5000 to reach.
United Health care had purchased the two
firms who they claimed were doing due diligence for the consumer. Yes, James,
UNited Health Care owned the independent
firms doing due diligence for the SHEEPLE. Trying their darndest to keep the SHEEPLES health care costs under control. That’s how GIANT CORPORATE CEO’S keep looking out for the SHEEPLE’S best interest. That’s what cost comtainment is all about.
Even after United Health CARE, the poor ccompany that might have to go out of business if a stand alone government health care program is put into the system, makes the money needed to back date options so their CROOKED CEO and gurantee HENSLEY a $750,000,000 dollar compensation package.
If they gave health care to every SHEEPLE in the US and threw in criminals, illegals, and other sordid things. It would not cost me $5000 a year more, even if I was taxed to pay for all of the above mentioned healthcare.
Not that the bill will cover illegals. No where does any balloon mention them getting coverage. But it would still be cheaper than dealing with United Health Care and their crooked CEO.
SECREG_756

Referenecing SHEEPLE polls w/o providing facts such polling numbers exist have become common place in the news/entertainment industry.
Both sides of the issue have been guilty of pulling numbers out of thin air or pointing only to polls which support their points of view.
Do you honestly believe 85% of all the
SHEEPLE are satisfied with the way the health care insurance industry is being run?
Over the last 30 years haven’t all AMERICANS seen the exponential rise in the premiums we pay? And then sat with our hands tied by the M.I.C., watched as our deductables, co-pays, and prescription costs more than tripled?
If you had the H.M.O. type of insurance you needed to visit your gate keeper doctor and pay a co-pay to get their permission to see a specialist.Then the specialist charged you another co-pay, and on it goes. Watched as insurance companies began to dictate which Dr.prescribed medicines they would pay for and which they wouldn’t?
For the benefit of WE THE PEOPLE, it is imperative we give the 6 remaining health care giants a competitive opponent.
What form this competition takes is yet to be seen. But for goodness sakes James
killing a potentially great source of fair health care simply for political gains, or your largest donor happens to be the M.I.C. is just wrong.
WE THE PEOPLE deserve better choices than what we have now.

A Few parts to respond.
James, may I call you James? Thanks for your response. Whether we end up agreeing or disagreeing is unimportant.
I respect all people’s right’s to feel and think as they so desire. I only object when disagreements between people become violent.
SECREG_756, you wrote: “Do you honestly believe 85% of all the SHEEPLE are satisfied with the way the health care insurance industry is being run?”
You (James) write–there is a huge difference between being satisfied with one’s own personal healthcare received, the insurance company’s service, and how the entire healthcare industry is being run.
Yes, I could not agree with your position as stated above. This is how level headed people begin to discover we AMERICANS have more in common than television, cable, talking heads, and reporters want us to believe. IMO-divide and conquer is completely self explainatory and 100% correct.
You now state-The CNN Poll is reported to say that 83% are statisfied with the healthcare that they are “receiving.”
I’m not certain but I believe you phrased this differently in your last posting. I’ll check. or you can let me know.
Once again I’ll accept that as an accurate polling number. We agree.
Then you wrote: “…killing a potentially great source of fair health care simply for political gains, or your largest donor happens to be the M.I.C. is just wrong.”
James you responce-IF that “great source of fair healthcare” eliminates the coverage that the vast majority of Americans currently have–and are satisfied with–then THAT would be wrong.
Yes, but here you’re setting up your next series of comments on a premise, “that all will change”. Doctor patient services could more likely change if the employer changes insurance carriers. There is no guaranteed safety anyone’s care givers will remain constant tnrough out their lives.

We have not come to that bridge yet. Depending upon who you’ve heard or read. The S.A.G.H.C. Plan will be set up as a non profit insurance company.
Signing up members and charging premiums. Our health care system was originally set up to be a non profit
system. There is so much waste in the current system fixing it would mean less profits for shareholders and the CEO’S might not make $750,000,000 in salary, bonuses, and stock options. I can live with less waste and more medical delivery to SHEEPLE.
James goes on to say–So right off the bat, this public option will immediately charge quite a bit less for the exact same coverage that any profit-driven private healthcare insurer charges. Probably?
James contimued–THEN when you add the changes that Congress is going to make–changes that are necessary and long-time coming, such as banning discrimination for existing conditions, banning annual and lifetime caps, and prohibiting the dropping of individuals when they develope catastrophic conditions or injuries–that will cause the private sectors’ payouts to skyrocket, thus require greatly increased premiums. THAT will place the private sector at a huge disadvantage and drive them out of business.
Whom do you think the CORPORATE CEO’S squueze every time they raise a co-pay, increase dedutables, take co-pays away from credit towards deductables, increase the cost of prescription medication, raise the payors premium 15-25% each year. They squeeze WE THE PEOPLE. Don’t you ever ask me to be sympathetic towards the FAT CORPORATE CEO’S who have sucked the blood out of our country and are now spending a million and a half a day in ads to keep it that way. So what if the GREAT CEO’S gave to earn a paltry million or two a year. So what if Humanna’s share price goes to $19.00 a share. They will still be there and the people who work for them will be too.
James continued– HR 3200, Sec. 313–”Employer Contributions in Lieu of Coverage,” actually provides a huge incentive for employers to drop coverage for their employees. In fact, it would make no financial sense for ANY employer to continue to provide healthcare coverage if this section remains in the final bill and is passed.
If- you sort of fit that word in there
at the end. Biggest two letter word ever devised. We have no idea what will be or won’t be in the final bill.
I advocate, and my position has been consistent, why guess and argue over issues which may not apply.
GIANT PHARMA AND HEALTH CARE CEO’S want this bill dead on arrival.
James, why do you think that is? Is it beacause they care so much about us’s and me’s?
James, CORPORATE CEO’S cut jobs to insure profits. Couldn’t they cut their pay and keep more SHEEPLE working. How many jobs would a million dollars in salary save for the working stiffs?
CORPORATE CEO’S trod on the SHEEPLE because they can. And they give a hoot if thousands get laid off, as long as they get their UNFAIR FULL SHARE!!
I have really done the math on the GIANT CORPORATE CEO’S and it’s ugly.
WE THE PEOPLE need to identify where the real problem lies. Just follow the money and you’ll find that GIANT CORPORATE CEIO’S understand that there is more profit in STEALING, LYING and KILLING SHEEPLE than there is in earning an honest dollar.
Steal a 100 million. Get fined 20 million. Those deals go on all day every day. And it’s the SHEEPLE of our great country that get ripped.
James Hadly, thank you for a nice conversation. I look forward to any future postings you may write.
Thanks
SECREG_756

SECREG_756,
1. “Yes, but here you’re setting up your next series of comments on a premise, ‘that all will change’.”
It is my belief that if there is a public option in the healthcare reform bill that it will eliminate the private sector. I am not the only one who believes this.
Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL) speaking before an audience on April 18, 2009 said: “And next to me was a guy from the insurance company who then argued against the public health insurance public option saying, ‘It wouldn’t let private insurance compete. That a public option will put the private insurance industry out of business and lead to single payer.’” To which the crowd erupted into a huge applause. She then followed with, “He was right. The man was right.”
Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA) said on July 27, 2009: “I think if we get a good public option it could lead to single payer and that’s the best way to reach single payer.”
2. “Who am I and who is us?”
I (myself) know you (yourself) and many others (others) don’t believe us (we Conservatives) when we (we Conservatives) say that the public option will eliminate the private sector.
3. “So in that sense you are right…”
Noam Levey in an article dated Feb. 26, 2009 in the The Los Angeles Times reported that President Obama planned to raise $634 billion in new taxes on the wealthy along with cuts in Medicare spending in order to pay for the healthcare reform.
The MarketWatch dated July 22, 2009 has a report by Robert Schroeder in which he says, “President Barack Obama on Wednesday night said a surtax on wealthy Americans to help pay for health-care reform would meet his principles. ‘To me, that meets my principle that it’s not being shouldered by families who are already having a tough time.’”
Obviously the agenda is to have the wealthy help pay for healthcare reform not just “seed money.”
4. “Don’t you ever ask me to be sympathetic towards the FAT CORPORATE CEO’S…”
“Just follow the money and you’ll find that GIANT CORPORATE CEIO’S understand that there is more profit in STEALING, LYING and KILLING SHEEPLE than there is in earning an honest dollar.”
In every industry there are abuses and fraud. There is $60 billion of fraud annually in Medicare. If laws are broken, the perpetrators should be prosecuted. However, the healthcare insurance companies are a BUSINESS. They are providing a service that people need and want. They have a right to charge for that service. And they have a right to make as much profit as the Free Market allows. If the people don’t like the price of premiums, they can shop elsewhere (unfortuately only with the state they reside) or insist that their employer pays a higher percentage of the premium (if they aren’t already paying 100%).
Why don’t the Liberals get together and form their own private non-profit healthcare insurance company? Then they can cater their coverage to satisfy those who are currently dissatisfied with their coverage or don’t have any coverage at all.
5. “We have no idea what will be or won’t be in the final bill. I advocate, and my position has been consistent, why guess and argue over issues which may not apply.”
We already have a written plan–HR 3200, that includes a public option. Many of us Americans are expressing our objections to that bill so that Congress might hear our objections and eliminate what we object to in the final bill. If they don’t then we will work hard to defeat them in the 2010 elections.

Good evening James,
SECREG_756 posted-4. “Don’t you ever ask me to be sympathetic towards the FAT CORPORATE CEO’S…”
“Just follow the money and you’ll find that GIANT CORPORATE CEO’S understand that there is more profit in STEALING, LYING and KILLING SHEEPLE than there is in earning an honest dollar.”
James’s responce-In every industry there are abuses and fraud. There is $60 billion of fraud annually in Medicare. If laws are broken, the perpetrators should be prosecuted.
SECREG_756 asks James- How many ordinary people are in jail for fraud, or cheating v CORPOPRATE CEO HEALTH CARE TYPES?
Who prosecutes the CROOKERD CORPORATE CEO’S? Usually upwardly mobile prosecutors accept pleas, and the fines, while sounding as if they are large sums, are but small percentages of what was gained by lying to the public.
James if you read my posting about UNUMProvident, you will be reading just a tip of the iceberg as to the lengths UNUMProvident CEO’S went through, all in an attempt to line their own pockets. And those of the founder of the company. the McClelland family.
None of what I post is in my opinion.
It’s all true. Power corrupts is a truism.
James posts-However, the healthcare insurance companies are a BUSINESS. They are providing a service that people need and want. They have a right to charge for that service. And they have a right to make as much profit as the Free Market allows.
SECREG_756-Responds-Read my posting involving Dr. Epstein. Now the head neurologist at a major hospital. It’s a true posting. Not IMO.
James Posts-If the people don’t like the price of premiums, they can shop elsewhere (unfortuately only with the state they reside) or insist that their employer pays a higher percentage of the premium (if they aren’t already paying 100%).
SECREG_756-posts-Are you suggesting employees walk into their bosses office and demand he/she pay more of their health care costs? It’s a rhetorical question. I’m just reciting what you posted.
James Posts-Why don’t the Liberals get together and form their own private non-profit healthcare insurance company? Then they can cater their coverage to satisfy those who are currently dissatisfied with-
I don’t have an answer for this one. Maybe it’s possible and maybe its not.
Thanks
SECREG_756

Good morning SECREG_756,
There certainly are abuses with regards to lobbyists–both by lobbyists and by our Representatives and Senators. HOWEVER, there has been a demonization of lobbyists that has turned the word “lobbyist” into having a very negative connotation. Technically speaking, every time an individual contacts his or her Representative or Senators, and request they vote a particular way or even ask for assistance they are lobbying on their own behalf.
The reform that was passed a few years ago did not go far enough. It should have banned all “gifts” by prohibiting both the giving and receiving of “gifts.” And by “gifts,” I mean anything (i.e, a meal, a beverage, movie dvds or music cds, flowers, and etc.)
Meanwhile back to the issue at hand–healthcare. You say that nothing is written in stone. That is true. But the fact that some of this stuff has actually been written is an outrage. Some of this stuff just being discussed is an outrage. Take for example the report from one of the other networks–the one with the big eye–by Declan McCullagh. Here is just one excerpt talking about HR 3200:
“Section 431(a) of the bill says that the IRS must divulge taxpayer identity information, including the filing status, the modified adjusted gross income, the number of dependents, and ‘other information as is prescribed by’ regulation. That information will be provided to the new Health Choices Commissioner and state health programs and used to determine who qualifies for ‘affordability credits.’
“Section 245(b)(2)(A) says the IRS must divulge tax return details — there’s no specified limit on what’s available or unavailable — to the Health Choices Commissioner. The purpose, again, is to verify ‘affordability credits.’
“Section 1801(a) says that the Social Security Administration can obtain tax return data on anyone who may be eligible for a ‘low-income prescription drug subsid’ but has not applied for it.”
So they want to know our financial information! Information that is supposed to be confidential. They have not only discussed this but they have it written down and have already passed this in committee. So they want to pass a law that requires the IRS to readily give up this information, handing it over to the Health Choices Commissioner and all 50 state health programs.
THAT IS NOTHING MORE THAN A WARRANTLESS SEIZING OF OUR TAX RETURNS!
Many were upset when the Bush Administration “violated” the U. S. Constitution when they searched and seized communications between suspected foreign terrorists and individuals within the United States. Yet where is the ACLU, where is the Liberal outrage for this?

SECREG_756,
I don’t have a problem with a federal agency ASKING an INDIVIDUAL about HIS or HER finances to determine whether the individual is eligible for a program.
I do, however, VEHEMENTLY OBJECT to a law being passed that mandates upon request by the new Health Choices Commissioner that the IRS must release the tax returns of not just specifically targeted individuals–who may be suspected of fraudulently applying for a program (to which I would not oppose should a warrant be issued)–but millions of people if not EVERYONE to determine simply if the people are eligible for programs for which they have, as yet, not applied for. AND as if that isn’t bad enough, the law would also require that the IRS provide the same information to the respective state health program (where the individual resides) for their use. That is a blantant violation of the 4th Amendment to the U. S. Constitution.

SECREG_756,
It has been an enjoyable discussion. I’m concerned that these kind of discussions won’t be around for too much longer. We now learn that the Senate has a draft (actually a revised version of a bill proposed this past spring that alarmed civil liberties groups)–S.773–that will give the president the authority to take control of the Internet, and even disconnect the private-sector computers from the Internet, should he ever declare a “cybersecurity emergency.” In addition, President Obama has appointed Mark Lloyd–a Marxist who lamented the fact that non-state-run radio stations prevented Hugo Chavez’s “incredible revolution,” and who stated: “…and came back and had another revolution. And Chavez then started to take the media very seriously in this country.”–as the Chief Diversity Officer of the FCC. Mark Lloyd is in a position that gives him the authority to “balance the airwaves” (stifle the opposition?).
Whether you like the guy or not, Glenn Beck has been asking some “reasonable” questions this past week. He is begging for the White House to answer the questions. Unfortunately, they have not responded. They have not denied any of the facts that he has laid out. Nor have they tried to spin the facts. No answers!
Here are just a few of Glenn Beck’s questions:
“How did Van Jones, a self-proclaimed communist, become a special adviser (Green Jobs Innovation Adviser) to the president?”
“The Apollo Alliance claimed credit for writing the stimulus bill; why was this group allowed to write any portion of this bill?”
“Does the president know the co-founder (Jeff Jones) of the Weather Underground is a board member of the Apollo Alliance?”
“Who is Mark Lloyd and how does he plan to ‘balance’ the airwaves?”
“Why do we need a civilian force?” (President Obama stated: “We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded.”)
“Who is posing a threat to us?”
“Why won’t the media get off their butts and look into these radicals in the White House? And into this civilian army?”

James, are you a golfer? Just got home from Troon North. We are always first and second off. Our rounds average 3:30-3:45. Then breakfeast and home sweet home. Thank you, our converstaions have been enjoyable for me as well.
OK, it looks like we have a new topic?
Is that acurate?
I am not a fan of big government. You might be surprised by my comment.
I do believe government needs to be more conspicuous in its role as regulators over BIG CORPORATE AMERICA.
Too many of our politicians are in the pockets of CORPORATE AMERICA’s CEO’S. While they keep the tribes at home happy by adding pork to bills, they recieve too much money from special interest groups. Which, IMO, influences their voting patterns, forcing them to vote against the best interests of the SHEEPLE.
During the Bush administration he signature signed a law allowing Federal Troops to enter into states if he deemed it necessary for the safety of the country.
From what you posted it sounds like Obamma may be taking the same position with cyberspace.
I do not place much credence into anything Glen Beck has to say.
His asking potentially inflamatory questions of Obamma does not carry much weight with me. Particularly since his racist comments against the president. I’m sure there are reasonable answers to his questions. I may not know the answers, and yes on the surface those are vexing questions. I sometimes look at the source and evaluate the bias of the person asking the question.
As far as the other questions you bring up, I will look into them and tell you what I have found.
New conversation.
Good idea.
Thanks
SECREG_756

As promised, my vision of a Stand Alone Government Run Health Care program.
The program will be seeded with $8 Billion dollars already allocated into the TARP fund.
Insurance agents will be licensed to sell the plan. SHEEPLE will be able to access it on line.
An application will be filled out. Pre-existing coverages will not be a reason for denial, maybe rated up, but not denied.
Policy’s will be issued and premiums will be billed to policy holders.
Just like every other insurance business was started and is now running.
Initially the costs for government care will probably be lower because the administrative costs and necessity to be profitable are not part of the equation. This, IMO, is very benefical to the SHEEPLE of our great country.
In order to be competitive, compete, Aetna, Well Point, Cigna, Blue x Blue Shield, Humanna will have to get their administrtive house in order. Currently 40% of all premiums go for administrative costs.
IMO, imagine a government run health care plan that is more efficent than 100 year old insurance con-panies.
The biggest changes will benefit the SHEEPLE of our great country.
This plan will probably cost me more when April 15th rolls around.
IMO, providing coverage for the 47,000,000 million SHEEPLE now suffering w/o health coverage is worth the additional payment to the tax man.
People who go to Church on Sunday, should carry their leaders message with them into the world around them, not check it at the door on the way out.
IMO, You get back what you give out.
It is better to give than to recieve.
Not everything in life breaks down into dollars and cents.
Every denomination is essentially sent home from their chosen place of worship with the same messages.
ALL JIMVHO
I look forward to your second choice.
Thanks,
SECREG_756

SECREG_756:
That 47 million uninsured figure, about 7-8 million are either young and healthy, thus they see no need for health insurance, or are well enough off that they choose to pay cash for their healthcare. I would leave these groups well enough alone. To mandate that they pay for health insurance takes away from their Individual Freedom. Another 15-20 million are illegal immigrants. They should be encouraged to leave, rather than further rewarded by including them in the healthcare reform plan. And then there is another group that are already eligible for healthcare under existing healthcare programs. Who knows how large this group is? It could be several million people! So that would leave us with just several million who fall between the cracks.
Instead of forcing existing healthcare insurance companies to eliminate their annual and lifetime caps and force them to accept pre-existing conditions, I would just have the newly formed option–preferably a PRIVATE NON-Profit company–offer the coverage as a means of competition.
Now then your comment about Sunday church goers, charitable giving is wonderful. BUT you get the biggest reward when you give from the heart rather than begrudgingly giving because of a mandate. God judges and blesses us based on our intent!
As for Glenn Beck, too bad you miss the message because you can’t stand the messenger. No one else will ask these questions. It’s no coincidence that his ratings skyrocketed last week. That’s because he–alone–is asking these questions. He is encouraging others to boldly ask questions.

Good evening James,
That 47 million uninsured figure, about 7-8 million are either young and healthy, thus they see no need for health insurance, or are well enough off that they choose to pay cash for their healthcare.
SECREG-756-True enough. Although the current system allows for uninsureds to
be seen anytime they walk into a hospital. All services performed are expensive and usually do not ensure a return visit won’t be necessary. It’s far more expensive than health care reform and much more expensive.
All unauthorized people living in our
country should be asked to leave, or get in line to sign up for legal residency of some sort.
Tue enough, but my understanding of the yet to be written plan excludes illegals from coverage.
James you raise a lot of good questions.
Who knows? Answer, no one knows.
James-forcing existing healthcare insurance companies to eliminate their annual and lifetime caps and force them to accept pre-existing conditions, I would just have the newly formed option–preferably a PRIVATE NON-Profit company–offer the coverage as a means of competition.
SECREG_756-James a not for profit network has tried and failed. Just as you suggest the GOVERNMENT will eventually gobble up the private health care sector. The private health care sector has already taken that plan to the dance and left her there crying.
>>your comment aboutSunday church goers, charitable giving is wonderful. BUT you get the biggest reward when you give from the heart rather than begrudgingly giving because of a mandate. God judges and blesses us based on our intent!
SECREG_756-True enough-sometimes giving without self satisfaction is a more noble gift.
SECREG_756-No, you have that wrong. I do not believe any messages from Glen beck. But that’s a matter of opinion and we shall agree to disagree.
I have one concern with our great COUNTRY. GIANT CORPORATIONS and paid off Politicians. Remove their power from the equation and AMERICANS would do just fine.
I sense some hostitlity in your posting.
Am I right? Or,am I wrong?
No place for hostility between American
citizens. We should find common ground and move forward together against a greater enemy than me and you.
Good night.
SECREG_756

Baghdad city witnessed a series of bomb blasts causing a death toll of At least 97 and injuring more than 580. Death toll may further rise as still there are people caught within the crumbling masses. It is said that at least six bombs detonated in close proximity to government ministries. Eye witnesses reveal that finance and foreign ministries were the areas mainly targeted. Trucks carrying explosives were the main causative agent of the explosions. One explosion caused the breakage of windows in Iraq’s parliament building in the Green Zone government and diplomatic complex which is under the cover of tight security. A ministry employee girl who was lucky to survive was appalled by the incident. She told press that she saw the corpse of security guards, journalists etc. It is noteworthy that these gruesome chains of blasts have took place few months before the national elections which were slated to take place in January. Baghdad’s security spokesman while addressing the journalists said that another attempt prospective explosion using bomb planted in a car was thwarted by security forces and two Al-Qaeda members were detained

Four TV Shows–with a huge twist. Instead of political, what I consider the best four shows on the air (not necessarily in order):
1. Flash Point–normally on Friday nights on CBS, but has been preempted the past couple of weeks.
2. NCIS–Tuesday nights on CBS (the new NCIS Los Angeles will follow starting on Sept. 28th).
3. The Closer–Monday nights on TNT (the season just ended, but there should be reruns).
4. Extreme Makeover: Home Edition–Sunday nights on ABC (occasional preemptions until new season later this month).
If you have to drop one, don’t drop Flash Point!
Have a great evening!

James, listen to this. It’s partially why I do not trust health care con-panies.
As I have told you I carry two health insurance policys. I’m primary on one and my wife is primary on hers. We are both secondary on each others policy.
My wife’s pain management specialist is Dr. Joe Blow, board certified, M.D.in pain management. He will accept patients from (a major carrier due to their late payments and un willingness
to stop reducing the percent of charges he recieves). So she pays him $100 each visit. She had major back surgery and needs to visit Dr.Joe at least once a month. My wife’s carrier is one of the big six, for profit, CEO makes 7.5 million a year. It’s an HMO. Her plan is also a group plan.
Dr. Joe does do business with my carrier. It is a group policy and not a major carrier like Aetna, Humanna.
My insurance carrier is a large mutual insurance company. My lifetime limit is $1,500,000.
About a month ago I submitted my wife’s medical bills from Dr. Blow to my carrier. I receieved a letter back claiming they would not pay either. Their reasoning was Dr. Blow should have been paid by my wife’s carrier.( As primary) Dr. Blow choose’s not do business with (the big 6 con-pany because they were terrible payers and kept reducing his fees for service.)
It was not worth his time to have a person constantly chase after this con-pany for payment.
This con-pany had a boat load of doctors stop accepting their customers.
FORCING his SHEEPLE to either pay him from their own pockets or CHANGE DOCTORS!!
This is why I get upset when a CORPORATE OWNED POLITICIAN LIKE GRASSSLY says, ” I will never allow a Federal beaurucrat to come in between you and your doctor”. Pure B.S.
Insurance con-pany’s do these type of shifty transactions on a daily basis and to millions of SHEEPLE.
James this is all 100% accurate.
Have a nice day,
SECREG_756

Evening James, thank you for your in depth responce. Both of us are on the same page, change needs to happen in health care. I’m not 100% certain we would disagree on what changes are acceptable and which aren’t.
As it stands today the insurance industry enjoys total control over
anything medical. IMO, the M.I.C. is
all inclusive to the healthcare industry as we know it today.
True free market in the health industry is gone. Six carriers dictate all the terms and conditions. And in a broader sense control what they deem payable or not payable.
Financially the current system is not sustainable and needs to be changed. Accepting the current health care leader’s word that real reform can be accomplished without strict governmental supervision is analguous to allowing convicted prisoners to sentence and surveil themselves.
There is too much power, graft and greed in insurance to allow companies
to self regulate. I point you towards Wall Street. Our current economic crisis is the result of to much deregulation and less regulatory supervision. Oil is a prime example. Price wise oil defies the law of supply and demand. It started when Lindsay Graham, Bill Clinton and a few rich oil men got together and deregulated oil futures trading.
To Be Continued
SECREG_756