Town Hall Tumult

Unions thugs sent out to beat up protestors by THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
This day is worse than 9/11. The citizens are under assault from their own government.
“If they hit us we will hit them back twice as hard”
The language of violence against citizens, spoken by a president in his call to arms of his union bought and paid for with taxpayer money thugs.
AFL-CIO Pres. Sweeny sends out a public letter, a call to arms of union thugs and a not so veiled warning to protestors.
Reserved seating for SEIU members at Carnahans meeting in St. Louis where they assaulted protestors trying to enter the meeting.
IS THIS THE HOPE AND CHANGE YOU DEMS WANTED? AN AHMADINEJAD STYLED ASSAULT ON THE CITIZENS?
Obama has spoken of an “internal army just as well armed and just as well funded as the military”
I guess he has it now and is not afraid to use it.
I have already reported myself to to the Whitehouse and await the union thug brownshirts arrival at my door.

The president of “all the people” only cares about those who agree with his agenda.
Obama is such a poor leader, even if he wanted to try and put this country back together again–he wouldn’t know how to do it.
I’ve never seen the country so divided.

The president sent out his thugs. He has no respect for American citizens. We will NOT be silent. Push comes to shove and when will it end?
Anger is not the same as violent. There was anger before but no violence. Obama has brought violence to his opponents. I hope it is apparent for all to see what a big mistake Americans made last November.
God Help us.

A famous columnist said it best:
This is an uprising against change we don’t believe in.

Obama dispatched thugs in action against US citizens:
*Eyewitness Account of Union Thugs Beating Black Conservative At Last Night’s Town Hall Meeting of Congressman Carnahan in St. Louis
*A supporter of health care reform, left, who did not want to give her name, pushes forward to rip a sign out of Kris McLay’s hands outside the Stout Street Clintic visited by Nancy Pelosi. (THE DENVER POST | RJ SANGOSTI)
*Democrat treasurer in Tampa slaps Tea Party activist
*More thuggery in Tampa
Michelle Malkin has links to these items, photos and videos.

All week Conservative talkers have been calling for revolution.
When their followers show up and turn violent… it’s no surprise.
Do the irresponsible radicals change course? No.
They sit there and claim that their violence was justified. Read the commenters on this thread… they are blaming Democrats for their own protests!
It’s sociopathic.

I just watched a video of conservatives screaming and pushing and chanting…
Of course they want confrontation.
The last thing they want is an honest discussion.
They show up in a rage, screaming “Communist! Communist! Communist!” And are trying to force their way into a room that is filled to capacity…. and for what? So they can keep screaming while responsible citizens try to have a discussion.

I saw a video of an all white mob screaming at a single black police officer… who is only trying to keep people cool.
They are beating on the doors. Calling out “Down with Tyranny!” Accusing the cop of being anti-democratic. Behaving worse that Henry Gates…
But I bet these same people will go home and watch the video and feel all righteous about the shameful way they are acting. Like a bunch of teenage anarchist losers.

I see the Obama strike force has arrived on this blog.
Those arrested for violence were SEIU members, Obama’s union buddies.
The anti-rationed health care protestors were the victims.
Obama dispatched his thugs and the violence began.
Obama in his own words spoke the first words of violence.
“We will punch them back twice as hard”
Shortly after we get a public letter from AFL-CIO pres Sweeny dispatcing his troops and a not veiled warning to protestors.
WITHIN HOURS VIOLENCE, INDUCED BY OBAMA THUGS BREAKS OUT.
No wonder Obama did not complain when Ahmadinejad assaulted those protesting his rigged election. Obama uses the same tactics. A few months in office and Obama is directing attacks on US citizens.

I saw a video of an all white mob screaming at a single black police officer… who is only trying to keep people cool.
Posted by: blip |
No you didn’t.

Posted by: blip | Aug 7, 2009 11:40:01 AM
Keep whining!
Posted by: Wail and Moan | Aug 7, 2009 11:42:24 AM
It’s not whining. I’m just pointing out that the protesters are fools who behave like animals.
If you support their violence… then you are no better.
But I have absolute trust that the law enforcement officials entrusted to keep our streets safe are more than up to the challenge of keeping us safe from a handful of violent dittoheads.

They show up in a rage, screaming “Communist! Communist! Communist!” And are trying to force their way into a room that is filled to capacity…. and for what? So they can keep screaming while responsible citizens try to have a discussion.
Posted by: blip | Aug 7, 2009 11:37:19 AM
———-
It is so laughable to hear dems complain about shouting as being unacceptable forms of protest.
Did you complain when code pink threw fake blood on Condoleeza Rice? Did you hear Bush tell the public to attack Code Pink, of course not, they were not even arrested.
When bottles and rocks were thrown by dems in protest, repeatedly by dems at almost every event held did Bush direct his minions to “punch them back twice as hard” as Obama has, of course not.
There are a litany of examples including the Cindy Sheehan protests with Megaphones to drown out speakers.
It is utterly vile, anti-american and unprecedented for an American President, Obama, to direct that those protesting his plans be physically intimidated and assaulted.
It is outrageous and frightening.
You dems ought to stop the kool-aid and ask yourselves what it is that you really believe in?
Do you believe the protestors exercising first amendment free speech rights should be intimidated and assaulted by the pres?
What has happened to you? Worse yet what is yet to happen to all of us?

violent dittoheads.
Hysterical. I’m so scawed! Get a grip, you sound like Nancy Pelosi.

–I think you are the one who didn’t see the video–
Link.

I think I’d be more for it if the politicians applied whatever they decided for the rest of us to themselves. I think part of the problem is some people interpret this as the appearance of tyranny and having something they don’t understand shoved down their throat.

Obama appears to think Americans should keep their mouths shut and do what told. The Dems think Americans should sit down and be quiet and do what they are told. Dems think that if you speak out at a townhall meeting your are a mobster or radical. What did they think when they did this to Bush? America is awakening and there will be sweeping reprisals next election. The houses will be cleaned out. This nation is broke becuase of Obama now. Oil is up and gas is higher. Guess those big donations paid off for Obama.

I love the moral relativism of conservatives.
Every time they mess up… whether it is cheat on their wives, lie about some important issue, take a bribe, manipulate people, ruin the economy, get arrested for drugs, incite a riot, etc. … like clockwork, they say, “well, the democrats did it, too!”
Today, I’m supposed to be upset over Cindy Sheehan’s erratic behavior… rather than the actions of some GOP rent-a-mob.
I’ll admit, Cindy Sheehan did behave badly. But also, to put it in perspective, Sheehan lost her son in a pointless war, it’s easy for me to forgive a grieving mother.
This mob, on the other hand, was orchestrated by Insurance Lobbyists and GOP operatives to keep my family from getting affordable health care.
So, how about this? I’ll condemn Cindy Sheehan and Code Pink… If you condemn your phony mob.

57 million people DID NOT vote for Obama. I am one of them and damn proud to say that. I have healthcare…good healthcare and pay enough in taxes as it is!
I’ll be damned if I am going to pay a dime more so that these illegal leaches and inner city sewer rats can get YET ANOTHER free “gubbermint” handout!!
Posted by: MBNA Joe——————————-Well I am one of the majority that did vote Obama and agree with you 100 percent!

“inner city sewer rats”
Spoken like a true conservative… Rise up and riot on behalf of the insurance companies!

It is clear which side started this shut down of civil discussion. Staging protests to shut down *discussion* of reform and yelling down attempts at civil discussion is indeed a direct attack on freedom of speech and a classic tactic of a minority group trying to control the majority.
I do not recall townhalls being impossible to hold during the Iraq war, which had equally vehement (but clearly more civil) opposition.

Now… you think I am some kind of “agent” dispatched by Obama’s secret police…
No wonder people riot at these town hall meetings… everyone is out to get you!
Posted by: blip |
Still waiting for you to put up or shut up on your racist claims.

Sooner or later, the administration has to recognize that they are out of step with what the public wants done, on health care.
They are also out of step with seniors, who readily recognize the effort to erode the benefits for the elderly, and giving away more to the young, while discarding the aged.
The citizens recognize what is happening, and they aren’t going away. they will stay in the face of the representatives, as they feel they aren’t being properly represented……and they are right.

Town Hall meetings are designed to provide information and gather citizen input in a format that allows all to be heard. They are an important part of any government decision, especially at the local level. By taking over these meetings with heckling, rude behavior, and screaming, they are likely to just not happen anymore. Isn’t it more important to have these available for access and information? You can show your displeasure without risking the entire process.

CAW: “Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Government will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!”
OK folks, what is more likely: CAW is misunderstanding this clause, or the government is planning to audit the books of 5.2 million businesses every year (the CBO predicts 90% of employers will provide private insurance by 2019 under the most aggressive bill analyzed)?
An inability to understand the bill does not make a compelling argument (please define “self-insure”).

As a Ind. That voted Obama I am very happy with what he has done in regard to international policy and reputation but cant stand what he is doing within our own country. Looks right now, and time will tell, I will be voting Rep in 2010 and 2012. Our international reputation means squat if this country destroys itself inside out.

It’s just so sad how angry and divided this country has become over issues that a lot of us have no control over.

For the first time in my American life, I do feel like I’m losing my freedom because of obama’s policies. I also do not like how he is apologizing for America to other countries – it’s almost as if he doesn’t think he’s “one of us.” It doesn’t feel very good and I do plan on doing something about it whether it be participating in a town hall or blogging the truth.

You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot build character and courage by taking away people’s initiative and independence.
You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.
…..Abraham Lincoln
Mr. Obama… You are no Abe Lincoln…you’re doing just the opposite.

Obama/Democrats are so out of touch they don’t even realize the backlash isn’t just about health care.
It’s about stopping the government from sticking their noses into our lives and about fighting to keep our freedom.
Obama wants neighbors spying on each other–what kind of president says something like that? This isn’t Venezuela.

Elena:”% Men & Women who survived a cancer five years after diagnosis
U.S. 65%
England 46%
Canada 42%”
And for today’s lying with statistics… Note that is not who lived longer after being afflicted with cancer, but who lived longer after diagnosis with cancer. Big difference; if you live 10 happy years without knowing you have prostate cancer in the UK and then die 5 years at the age of 70 after it is discovered, that is a worse outcome by this metric than having that cancer discovered 5 years earlier and then dying after 5 years of aggressive treatment at the age of 65.
The FACT is that England and Canada have longer life expectancies than the US. And it’s not because they are dying off youngerfrom Cancer (the 2nd leading cause of death).
“% Seniors needing hip replacement who received it within six months:
U.S. 90%
England 15%
Canada 43%”
Cute – you know most of those prompt US hip replacements were done under Medicare, that is the US government “socialist” health care program?

Why do you describe Kenneth Gladney as a “conservative activist”, but Code Pink member and 9/11 Truther Steve Belosi is just Steve Belosi?

“A recent Investor’s Business Daily article”
ROFLMAO!
Then you better go to the source instead of taking their word for it.
“statistics from a survey by the statistics from a survey by the United Nations International Health Organization..”
Also interesting is how many times this piece of spam appears on blogs.
Can you say astroturfing ladies and gentleman.

Some care more about defeating Obama than they do about providing quality Health care for Americans. It is political, not ethical. I have heard it said that the Government will stand between you and your doctor if we elect a Public Health Care option when the only people who are between me and my doctor are Insurance Companies and certain political parties. This is a battle between hard working American citizens and BIG profit based Insurance Companies who will stop at nothing to stop reform.
A nice old man who lived next to me had been faithfully paying into his insurance company for forty years when he developed throat cancer. His Insurance Company refused payment and denied his doctor prescribed treatments. He fought them, but he died before his case got to court. He was as “American” as they come and his story is not unique. This is happening all over America. No PROFIT BASED insurance company should be between us and our doctors, as they are right now.
Finally, I have heard some political parties claim that everyone’s taxes will increase. Well, that is not what our President said; it is what a political party is saying as an attempt to defeat Obama and the American people. The proposal, as it stands, will increase taxes on anyone making over $350,000 a year and that probably does not apply to anyone reading this post.
We need a Public Health Care option to compete with the insurance companies and I don’t care if the insurance companies don’t like it. The Public Health care option has my vote.
WATCH SiCKO with Michael Moore it will explain a lot about Health Care. WARNING, some people won’t want you to see it!

Foghorn:”The bill? What are you talking about. We don’t have a bill. But keep waving those pom poms cause we don’t you don’t care what they pass as long as they pass something.”
“We” have several bills. Your ignorance of that fact is hardly a convincing argument. In the cited post, I was responding directly to CAW who listed a long list of misrepresentations of the House health care bill that was finalized and passed out of the House Energy and Commerce Committee last week. So your representative has several weeks now to do their job and read the bill.

blip:”The people organizing these protests… if they really want to influence lawmakers… should use this approach. ”
That reasonable approach doesn’t work for a minority position in our government. Hence the need to disrupt and shut down discussion, to ensure the majority, civil opinion is not heard.

That reasonable approach doesn’t work for a minority position in our government. Hence the need to disrupt and shut down discussion, to ensure the majority, civil opinion is not heard.
Posted by: jhw539 |
Old Saul couldn’t have said it better himself.

If this does not stop, someone is going to get killed!

“The mantra that the Democrats should be worried about occurred with a meeting of senior citizens in which ‘You’ve lost my vote” was said by senior citizens.”
Just wait till the GOP has to vote yea or nay on Medicare that evil socialist institution.

The biggest irony about right wing defense of insurance company profits are that insurance companies ration care providing insurance only to the health as long as they remain healthy.

“conservative activist Kenneth Gladney handed out yellow flags with “Don’t tread on me” printed on them and was, he said, attacked.”
Ok Jake, this is pretty shakey. “…and was, he said, attacked.” The guy is in the emergency room and you basically say he is “claiming” to have been attacked? Did the snake on the yellow flyers suddenly attack him? Come on now.

“If government-run health care is such a bad idea, let’s see who wants to end Medicare, Rep. Anthony Weiner is challenging this afternoon.
He’ll do that by offering an amendment to end the the federally run health care program for the elderly during the debate over the health care bill in the Energy and Commerce Committee, which comes conveniently on the 44th anniversary of President Lyndon Johnson signing Medicare into law, Weiner says.
He says the move is aimed at Republicans whining about government-run health care, but it should certainly be noted that some conservative Democrats have made noises to that effect as well in fighting to curtail a publicly run insurance option.
“It’s put-up or shut-up time for the phonies who deride the so-called ‘public option’,” Weiner said.”

–Mr. “Socialism is bad” is suckling at the government teat!–
Dude, go easy, it isn’t like he works for Goldman Sachs!

One has to admit, the tactics used by Democratic activists in the past 8 yrs is coming back to haunt them…they disrupted campaign rallies/conventions, Congressional hearings,the State of the Union address and took out full page ads in the NYT disparaging the General that helped turn around the Iraq war.
As I recall, the former President didn’t try to solve his problem with an ‘enemy’s list’.
I would hope these critics of the President’s policies wouldn’t take the same tack…it is tacky and uncivil.
They can still defeat the President with reasoned debate, and not shouting and ranting tactics, as does Code Pink, MoveOn, etc.

“Buttons and stamps, posters etc were displayed often all depicting some form of Bush with a gun to his head,”
That was a single art show in which the artist made up crazy stamps, a tasteless one was Bush with a gun to his head.
That the 3rd time this week you’ve lied about that event.
The lesson as always? Right wingers lie.

I’m wondering how many people on this blog work for a Private Insurance Company?
The people on this blog that want to spew hate and praise “conservatism” seem to be missing the point. The Republicans had a candidate in the last election, and he lost. Simply put, the majority of the American Registered Voters decided they didn’t like the Republican candidate. We had a lot of that same thing going on in Congress and in the Senate. Seems to me you so called conservatives are a dying bread.
(And by the way calling yourself a Republican and then labeling yourself as a “conservative” is a contradiction in terms for the Republican group to begin with – ya right, you guys conserve – last I checked the last republican administration and the previous 2 didn’t lower the budget at all – anyway).
Regardless, when anyone, Independent, Republican or Democrat, shows up to a debate and chooses to disrupt the debate vs. participate, well then as far as I’m concerned whatever happens to you happens. If you have an opinion and want to become part of the discussion take a seat at the table and join in.
But when you simply show up to “protest” in a gross manner as described in this blog, it’s obvious your intention wasn’t to participate in constructive discussion, you’re only there because your party lost and you hate it when your team doesn’t win.
People, it’s time to learn the answers to our country’s problems don’t rest in the hands of a single party. It’s time to stop voting based on Party Lines, and start voting on the issues. Challenge the people who present themselves to you as a candidate in your town. Ask the tough questions and do your homework to find out who they really are and what their agenda is all about.
And while we’re at it, can we lose the liberal/conservative crap? That’s all it is, complete crap. Just because you choose to vote Republican doesn’t mean you’re more conservative than someone who votes Dem. And if you choose to vote Democrat, it doesn’t mean you’re any more liberal than someone who votes Rep.
Use logic, not hatred. And remember, this isn’t your country or my country – it’s ours. By definition, America is about compromise and it means that along the way you’re going to have to give up on some of you wants for the greater good.

“If government-run health care is such a bad idea, let’s see who wants to end Medicare, Rep. Anthony Weiner is challenging this afternoon.
He’ll do that by offering an amendment to end the the federally run health care program for the elderly during the debate over the health care bill in the Energy and Commerce Committee, which comes conveniently on the 44th anniversary of President Lyndon Johnson signing Medicare into law, Weiner says.
He says the move is aimed at Republicans whining about government-run health care, but it should certainly be noted that some conservative Democrats have made noises to that effect as well in fighting to curtail a publicly run insurance option.
“It’s put-up or shut-up time for the phonies who deride the so-called ‘public option’,” Weiner said.”
Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 7, 2009 12:49:47 PM
———
This is nonsense and an open threat to shut up senior citizens protesting this debacle of rationed health care.
Senior citizens do not love medicare, but they need it.
Senior citizens pay a premium to the government and a separate 150-300 plus dollars a month for a supplemental plan to compensate for the cuts in medicare that occur on a regular basis.
IN addition the private payer insured people have to pay a little more for their insurance because the medicare plan does not pay even the cost of service.
Anthony Weiner is a slime for threatening older people, the ones showing up at these town halls, into shutting up.
It is a threat tactic to frighten senior citizens to take away their medicare plan.
Weiner is a slime for doing it.

One thing is for sure, the Republicans have never been able to voice their opinion without trying to bully, lie and create mayhem. That’s why I would NEVER vote Republican. If they think they can bully their way through this they will be proved WRONG. I will laugh when the bill is passed and we all have the health insurance that we deserve. I’m sick of the insurance companies bullying the American people. Why do you think Doctors and hospitals have to charge so much for their services. My doctor is paying $ 25,000 a month for liability insurance. It would be to everyone’s advantage if our government put some control over the insurance idustry. All of you ranting should do some research instead of bad mouthing our government who’s hands are tied at this time. Talk to your doctor, you can’t do all of your research on the internet and by listening to big mouths on the blogs that misinform you. We are acting like a third world country instead of the USA and it’s down right embarrassing. I bet if one of the Democratic congressmen that are holding these town hall meetings could actually hold a civil meeting and take ligitement questions you might be able to understand what your talking about. What some don’t seem to understand is that WE are paying for others medical bills who can’t pay one way or another and the insurance executives are reaping in the rewards. Just like the banks! This bullish attitude is getting our country nowhere. The Republicans are tearing this country apart.

The irony is that old people are showing up at the debate, when in reality,we will be undergoing a massive transfer of the healthcare cost burden to young people.10-15 yrs from now, most of these seniors will be dead and the young will carry the cost burden of the baby boom gerneration, which will break all of us.
If college students really knew what they were in for (and use the least amoutn of the healthcare services), THEY would be shouting down their Congressional reps.
The President should be honest and spell out the financial cost required of this generation for coverage for all…he hasn’t, and that is dishonest.

Joker1956 – You said “My doctor is paying $ 25,000 a month for liability insurance. It would be to everyone’s advantage if our government put some control over the insurance idustry.”
Looks like you are the one who needs to do your research. What you refer to as liablilty insurance paid by your doctor is not medical insurance which is being addressed by Congress, it is medical malpractice insurance which is not being addressed by Congress.
Congress should begin with Tort reform which would have the effect of lowering the insurance your doctor has to pay for and in turn has to add to your bill as an overhead expense of his practice.

“Weiner’s making him some blue dog friends.”
Blue Dogs support Medicare.
Its Republicans who talk out of both sides of their mouth on Medicare.

Sandcrab:
Insurance is insurance, and our medical profession is being ripped off by the insurance companies just like we are. I assume you must be in the insurance profession since your taking up for them. Doctors and other medical providers overhead is what is costing us so much when we need them.

One thing in the current plan being discussed places many more people into the Medicaide program. From the federal standpoint Congress can say look we are giving all of these people acceess to Medicaide and it is only going to cost this much. What they are not telling us is that the funding for Medicade comes from the states so the funding will come from the states not the federal government. Congress won’t have to raise taxes to pay for these folks but the states will and then watch the idiots in Congress say that it wasn’t them that raised your state taxes.
Time for the states to stand up to Congress and enact the 10th ammendment which states “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Health care is not a power given to Congress by the Constituton so the states have the ball. Likewise the states need to tell Congress that they are not going to participate in any of the unfunded mandates passed down from Congress.

I wish all the insurance companies would get together & agree to accept pre-existing conditions & that the government would allow crossing state lines to get insurance. There must be at least 1300 insurance companies. We already have plenty of competition. We do not need GOVERNMENT REFORM. ENOUGH..we the people are being lied to & strong armed. AND now they have someone checking fishy comments. Come on… this is Democracy…

Wow, I love Pelosi and the media criticising the people who practice the 1st Amendment after years of people like Codepink, NARAL, anarchists, etc protesting, disrupting, etc. Not to mention the illegal alien criminal marches that shut down some public streets and by-ways! Now Bush was bad with his “free speech zone” nonsense but now, in typical Obama fashion, the Democrats are talking about enemies lists, informing on others, and how public speech is bad, mean-spirited, and “uncivic”. And where is the ACLU in this issue? Free speech is ok for hippie malcontents but not for working class folks or people with jobs? It was ok in the 60′s, or indeed any anti-war protest, but not for any other reason? The hypocrisy is amazing.

Dear Celia: You are a prime example of what is being put out there by the right wing republicans. No one wants to take your health care away nor do they want to choose which older person will die. They are lies and exaggerations which have taken hold. The people going to these town hall meetings have been listening to the likes of Rush, Hannity and Rick Scott. Mr. Scott when he headed up he hospitals he owned was fined 1.7Billion dollars for over charging medicare and medcade. You need to keep and open mind and listen. Listen to both sides and don’t be afraid. President Obama only wants to make it more affordable and to give you a choice. I promise he will not take your health care coverage away from you. The mobs who are attending these meetings don’t want you to listen because maybe you will learn something beneficial. It is a sad day when this nonesense goes on.We need a health care reform or we will go broke..even the republicans know this. Please, don’t let these right wingers scare you.By the way, I am 70 years old and believe in what our president wants to do.

Put Up:
Duh! We are discussing INSURANCE here, which is on the top of the list when OVERHEAD is hurting the medial profession and in return being passed on to patients.

If anyone thinks healthcare is expensive wait until the government gets their hands on it. Just think, in a time when each one of us owes thousands in taxes borrowed on our behalf, social security and medicare going broke, fannie and freddie going broke despite the billions of tax payer dollars, our Congress goes out and buys a couple hundred million dollars worth of G5 airplanes…for their use. And oh yes, bankers are in not too bad a shape either.
Is it any wonder that crowds of people are steamed enough to want a voice? And tell me ABC ,the men and women I have seen (not that you guys show them) have been older people except those in purple shirts.

Weapon X,
Great post, Thanks for a “Common Sense” post that we all need to adhere to.

david:”If anyone thinks healthcare is expensive wait until the government gets their hands on it. ”
EVERY other first world nation has some form of government healthcare. And EVERY one spends less per year on health care than America, typcially half as much.
Reality simply does not support your opinion – not in one, single case.

I do not appreciate this adminstration or jokers in congress interferring in my private insurance. Their actions drive up my insurance costs. They are the problem not the solution!

david:”If anyone thinks healthcare is expensive wait until the government gets their hands on it. ”
EVERY other first world nation has some form of government healthcare. And EVERY one spends less per year on health care than America, typcially half as much.
Reality simply does not support your opinion – not in one, single case.
Posted by: jhw539 | Aug 7, 2009 1:28:22 PM
May be true but their level of care is a lot lower. Just ask a Canadian, I have asked plenty. They come to the US for major problems, why is that???

When Medicare was created in 1965, benefits were relatively limited and retirees paid a substantial percentage of the costs of their own care. In 1965, Congressional actuaries expected Medicare to cost $3.1 billion by 1970. In 1969, that estimate was revised to $5 billion, and it actually came in at $6.8 billion. Things have gotten worse since, and Medicare today costs $455 billion and rising. Medicaid was intended as a last resort for the poor but now covers one-third of all long-term care expenses in the U.S. — that is, it has become a middle-class subsidy for aging parents of the Baby Boomers. Its annual bill is $227 billion, and so far this fiscal year is rising by 17%. Schip was pitched a decade ago as a safety net for poor kids, Schip is now open to families that earn up to 300% of the poverty level, or $63,081 for a family of four. Any new federal health plan will inevitably follow the same trajectory, no matter how much Senators might claim they’ve guaranteed otherwise.
With this kind of track record there is absolutly no way that the federal government can run healthcare. In his first 170 days in office Obama has increased the debt of the government by 901.25 Billion dollars. At this rate he will increase the debt of the Government by 1.82 Trillion dollars in his first year alone and 7.74 Trillion dollars by the end of his 4 year term in office. If he is elected for a second term with the same rate of spending then the government debt will increase by 15.48 Trillion dollars. Since the debt owed by the Government was 10.6 Trillion dollars when he took office an additional 7.74 Trillion will almost double the debt in just 4 years to 18.34 Trillion dollars and at the end of his second term it will have increased to an unthought of 26.08 Trillion dollars. The interest alone on this amount of debt will consume more than half of the entire federal budget. This does not even include what Obama wants to put into healthcare which has been estimated may actually cost upwards of 1.6 Trillion dollars by the Congressional Budget Office. There is no way that the federal government can afford healthcare as they have proposed in this poorly written bill.
If you recall Dear Leader Chairman Maobama said something to the effect of “I have a good healthcare plan as a member of Congress and all citizens should have the same coverage,” Congress does not have “public option health insurance”, The healthcare insurance available to the members of Congress is through private insurance companies (Blue Cross, Aetna, Group Health, Kaiser, etc). The federal government as the employer pays a portion of their monthly premium (just as many private employers do) as part of their compensation package and the Congressman pays the remainder from his salary. When the Congressman uses the services of a health care provider he (not the government) is responsible for any co-pays or deductibles which are due to the provider at the time of service. These plans also have limits as to what is paid for so they are not the “free ride” that many on the left think our Congressmen have. For reference just Google “fehb”.
As far as letting the rest of us into their plans this could be a viable option but it would cost us all money. If Congress were to open these plans to the public the monthly premiums for a family plan would roughly be between $425.00 and $1300.00, for an individual the monthly premium would roughly be between $177.00 and $550.00 (premiums could be shared between the employer and employee if an employer chose to provide healthcare as an employee benefit). One of the differences in the plan costs is the level of benefits provided and the amount the patient pays when receiving healthcare. To me this would be a viable option as the government would not have to make a large outlay to open these plans to the public and they already negotiate the cost and benefits each year with the plan providers.

sandcrab:”then obviously the doctors premium could be significantly reduced thus reducing what he has to charge patients.”
Why are you doing hypothetical thought experiments on this? The numbers have been run, data collected from the states that HAVE enacted Tort reform, and CBO reports published. It doesn’t save patients much money because it just isn’t a big piece of the total overall trillion dollars healthcare cost pie.
Lower gas prices mean that doctors don’t have to pay as much to commute to the office and can therefore reduce the price they charge patients. But that is also a negligible impact on the cost of care.
Posted by: jhw539 | Aug 7, 2009 1:31:52 PM
You need to talk to a Doctor and see what they say about tort reform. I bet you will not find one who says it is not needed and would substantially lower cost.

billy bob:”May be true but their level of care is a lot lower. Just ask a Canadian, I have asked plenty. They come to the US for major problems, why is that???”
A friend of mine who was going to college in CA returned home at the first sign of health troubles for care (a brain tumor, dealt with in Canada). My parents moved to England to have my older sister explicitly for the health care. Many first world nations have longer life expectancies than the US (even though they have higher rates of smoking). France performed the first face and hand transplants in the world. ON AVERAGE THEIR HEALTH CARE SPENDING IS HALF AS MUCH PER PERSON AS THE US AND THEY LIVE LONGER.
Please back up your assertion that their level of care is a lot lower.

billy bob:”You need to talk to a Doctor and see what they say about tort reform. I bet you will not find one who says it is not needed and would substantially lower cost.”
Oh come on already, TORT REFORM HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY IN MANY STATES. The doctors in those states would simply be puzzled if asked about tort reform, like asking them if legally allowing women to vote is a good idea or not.

Ed: Free speech is not just for “hippie malcontents” – it should just be reasonable discussion about the differences. How can anything be resolved with all of the scare tactics, false rumors and shouting that is going on? Not only was the “free speech zone” nonsense but it doesn’t resemble anything that this administration does. Believe me – Dems are not above arguing and disagreeing with each other. It’s what makes them different from the “rubber stamp,” “march in lock-step” methods of the last 8 years.

A friend of mine who was going to college in CA returned home at the first sign of health troubles for care (a brain tumor, dealt with in Canada). My parents moved to England to have my older sister explicitly for the health care. Many first world nations have longer life expectancies than the US (even though they have higher rates of smoking). France performed the first face and hand transplants in the world. ON AVERAGE THEIR HEALTH CARE SPENDING IS HALF AS MUCH PER PERSON AS THE US AND THEY LIVE LONGER.
Please back up your assertion that their level of care is a lot lower.
Posted by: jhw539 | Aug 7, 2009 1:34:49 PM
————
This is factually untrue. Each country calculates these numbers differently and all numbers are averaged.
For example, in the US every single birth, no matter how premature, if even a single breath was taken, is counted in our statistics and given a certificate of live birth.
No other country includes premature, non-viable babies in their averages. This significantly skews not only longevity averages but infant mortality averages.
Unless and until all statistics are compiled in exactly the same way they are invalid and irrelevant.
What is statistically true is all the euro countries have higher cancer death rates that the US and they refuse treatment to advanced cancer patients because it is not cost effective.
I will not give up my right to choose when I will or will not stop treatment should I, or my family get cancer.
How dare they think we should. How dare they violently force this debacle upon us, to the point of presidential directed physical assaults on elderly protestors.

ubu1991:” This should make middle class americans very scared.”
That’s the Republican mantra I guess be “very scared.” But don’t get educates – no, shout down anyone who dares to talk about the facts or reality.

“Sen. Tom Coburn, a fierce opponent of a public option for health care reform, has introduced an amendment requiring all lawmakers to enroll in the plan if it is included in a final bill that is passed…”
“While the amendment evokes the old goose and gander adage, some Democrats are crying ‘fowl…’”
“Sen. Judd Gregg was the only Republican on the Senate Health committee who voted against the Coburn amendment. Coburn says Gregg told him he wouldn’t put anyone in a public plan. Not his constituents, not his fellow senators…”

FASCISM-
a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
SOUNDS LIKE OUR PRESIDENT

It’s scary there is a girl in my office who thought Bob Hope was one of our presidents and she voted for Obama.

Edward:”The US post office is facing a deficit of 700 billion dollars this year. It is completely goverment run with NO competition. ”
$700 billion ?!!!?? Why not quintillion while your making up absurd numbers. $700 billion is over 10 times their TOTAL annual operating budget.
The USPS is not run by the government, though there are a number of government mandates imposed on it (for example, 6 day a week mail delivery and delivery to all US addresses, even the absurdly unprofitable ones in the middle of nowhere). And the USPS has received no operating funds from the US government for decades.
Just like private businesses, it has been hit by the recession and had to borrow money to keep going and implement cost cutting (closing little used offices, if Congress allows it). Hardly a failed business, actually it is an excellent example of a private model being applied to a government function.

The reason all these third world countries have lower health care costs is because they offer third rate care to it’s citizens. There’s no magic formula. Offer less care, costs go down. That’s the essence of the promised “cost cutting”. Rationing. It’s the only way to cut costs.
Reform our better system. Don’t throw it out.

“With the right wing attacks on Sotomayor, the Republicans lost even more votes . .. doesn’t look good.”
Their approval rating is 20% or lower among Hispanics.
Just wait till the xenophobic wing of their party start bashing illegal immigrants more publicly as the cause of healthcare problems.

“What is statistically true is all the euro countries have higher cancer death rates that the US and they refuse treatment to advanced cancer patients because it is not cost effective.”
Wrong.
“Coleman and colleagues drew on data from nearly 2 million cancer patients, ages 15 to 99, whose medical information was entered into 101 population-based cancer registries in 31 countries. The patients had been diagnosed with one of four cancers: breast, colon, rectum, or prostate cancers during the years 1990-1994. They were followed up to 1999, with the researchers comparing five-year survival rates.
The highest survival rates were found in the U.S. for breast and prostate cancer, in Japan for colon and rectal cancers in men, and in France for colon and rectal cancers in women, Coleman’s team reports.
In Canada and Australia, survival was also high for most cancers.”

Ed: Your arguments that government health care can’t work due to the size of the US just don’t make sense. The size of France is close enough that it can scale to the size of the US, in the same way that democratic government forms scale quite well to the size of the US.
And I guess I simply come from a poor family, since my four aunts and several cousins in the UK are all covered by the NHS (my wife’s family in Norway are similarly covered by state care, but with their oil wealth Norway is a different case). They are quick to gripe about waits and rude nurses, but consider the American system utter rubbish that simply does not make sense.
As for your interesting definition of rationing, health care is rationed in the US too. It’s rationed by the free market and education providers.

“This is factually untrue. Each country calculates these numbers differently and all numbers are averaged.”
Actually no.
Thought right wingers are so embarrassed by the fact that Cuba beats us in infant mortality that they challenge the collection of numbers what jhw was discussing was life expectancies.
Its at this point that right wingers point out how gun totting and violent we are and how many extra deaths that leads to.
Then they will defend every child’s right to carry an uzi

A woman trying to start fights with people in line waiting to get into the auditorium at the Rep. Russ Carnahan forum admits to be working for Carnahan. Hmmm…

Our country is worse now than on Sept.11, 2001 because then we had a right to free speech and you could trust your evening news shows to tell us the whole truth. Americans have the right to speak up to their representatives in congress and speak freely on anything that effects the taxpayers and citizens of this country. Yesterday the unions put in a call for it’s members to go to the town hall meetings and stop the citizens from speaking against health reform. The head of the AFL-CIO did this. A Florida Town Hall meeting had citizens of the district waiting outside while the union members were being brought in threw a side door. If you had a sign or anything against the health care bill or the spending spree by congress you did not get in. This was captured on video by many people. No matter which side you are on this issue you should be allowed to be heard not intimatated by a union’s thugs. Search for yourself the AFL-CIO story “the union to flex it’s muscle at congress town hall meeting. This is still America they have not destroyed our country yet. Congresstional races are in 2010 and I bet we are in for BIG change like 1994. The American People are getting very upset with what is going on now.

david:”While this might be true they have it and spend less because people GET LESS. It is called rationing,”
WE HAVE RATIONING NOW. What a stupid talking point – are you saying there is no rationing now, that every one can get as much health care as they want? Just parroting that meaningless line indicates you’re a follower not a thinker on health care.
“Nothing the Government does is done cheaper than the private sector”
Like the creation of the internet? Interstate system? Universal education (the private classist approaches Europe clung to just did not compete)?
“Again JWH social security; broke, medicare ;broke, fannie and freddie;broke, post office;broke, amtrack;broke. This is the track record of Government. ”
Social Security, solvent. Medicare, solvent (and irreplaceable – no private insurance company would accept elderly with pre-existing conditions today). Both require minor (but politically painful) adjustments to the age of legibility to account for longer lifespans to continue indefinitely.
Post office, cutting costs just like FedEx to continue their long track record of operating without government funding. Amtrak, broke.
So the REAL record of government is 3 successes, one failure. Your record is 3 lies, one truth.

Town Hall meetings some times get rowdy,I believe the problem is,we have seen so many of Obama’s scripted town halls we expect them to be as acommodating as his. Truth is People are angry and do not want the government to ruin their health care.
Democrats just can not accept the fact that other Democrats disagee with the Messiah on health care…Funny how they seem to dislike community organizers now.

“Its at this point that right wingers point out how gun totting and violent we are and how many extra deaths that leads to.”
True, the US is a violent place. Has anyone disputed this?
“Then they will defend every child’s right to carry an uzi.”
I certainly do. I urge Washington DC to allow citizens to defend themselves. Oddly enough, VT a very liberal state, is a gun owners paradise. Again, oddly, they have very little crime.

Outside, conservative activist Kenneth Gladney handed out yellow flags with “Don’t tread on me” printed on them and was, he said, attacked. “He spoke to the Post-Dispatch from the emergency room at St. John’s Mercy Medical Center, where he said he was awaiting treatment for injuries to his knee, back, elbow, shoulder and face. Gladney, who is black, said one of his attackers, also a black man, used a racial slur against him before the attack.
Hmmmmmmm……..a black man standing up for what he believes in is attacked and called a racial slur by another black man. Was the one who did the attacking and throwin out racial slurs part of Obama’s ACORN?
Right, ACORN does this and it is grassroots movement…..LOL

“Oddly enough, VT a very liberal state, is a gun owners paradise. Again, oddly, they have very little crime.”
Could that have to do with VT’s social services and relative affluence vs the idea that its the Wild West?

Social Security, solvent. Medicare, solvent.
Posted by: jhw539 |
Unfunded liabilities mean nothing to the left.

“democrats that supported slavery. It took a republican president to take action. Remember Lincoln?”
When Republicans have to go back 150 years to get their civil rights cred, you know they are in dire straits today.

Last year the post office ran a $2 billion dollar deficit. This year it is $7 Billion. They might have got a clue last year.
Medicare, Medicaid are a huge mess. The fraud runs into the billions. They obviously don’t have a clue how to reform it or they would be doing that first. So where does this blind faith for universal heathcare come from? If they concentrate on fixing the problems that already exist they might get a little more support for taking over health care.
I don’t get the people on here who blindly argue that the goverment will administer this plan any better then they have the other programs. Will they offer any gaurentee’s that this plan will be better then what is already offered? I am NOT saying the insurance companies are the good guys. I just look at what goverment run programs do today and it isn’t pretty.

Ed: Your arguments that government health care can’t work due to the size of the US just don’t make sense. The size of France is close enough that it can scale to the size of the US, in the same way that democratic government forms scale quite well to the size of the US.
And I guess I simply come from a poor family, since my four aunts and several cousins in the UK are all covered by the NHS (my wife’s family in Norway are similarly covered by state care, but with their oil wealth Norway is a different case). They are quick to gripe about waits and rude nurses, but consider the American system utter rubbish that simply does not make sense.
As for your interesting definition of rationing, health care is rationed in the US too. It’s rationed by the free market and education providers.
Posted by: jhw539 | Aug 7, 2009 1:53:44 PM
========================================
JHW??? We were here last week….the size of France is 65+ million, the size of America is 305+ million……you cannot scale that large of a difference, especially factoring in the fact that we have 12+ illegal aliens.
Sweden=9.7 million (we have more illegal aliens than they have a population)
Canada=33.9 million (our illegal alien population is almost 1/2 their entire population)
Spain=45+ million
France=65+ million
All of those countries added up barely equals 1/2 of our 305+ million population and every single one of those countries, EVEN PRIOR TO THE RECESSION were having financial problems due to the health care industry.

“how much Sweden is hurting financially because of health care, which in turn is leading to longer lines and therefore people purchasing private health care so they can jump up in line, but alas he/she does not bother to look at facts.”
Facts? You mean like yesterday when you left out key portions of the health care bill to make it seem like it was not?

Have you watched the videos? Republicans were yelling down anyone else who was there wanting to speak and willing to wait their turn. THAT is a denial of free speech, not the effort to have these mindless parrots removed so people willing to allow others to speak have a chance to discuss the issues.
Posted by: jhw539 | Aug 7, 2009 2:03:46 PM
——
That behavior is mild compared to what dems did. This is exercising free speech.
Obama has sent out his union thugs to beat the protestors, as demonstrated in the video’s and first hand accounts online,
Obama will not tolerate dissent, just like any good dictator.
And those of you who call yourself dems line up and support a government/Presidential orchestrated physical assault on US citizens who talk back.
“We will punch them back twice as hard”
Language of violence, carried out by Obama’s recruited union thugs, against US citizens who by a majority do not want Obama to seize the health care industry.
You dems lie down while your fellow citizens are assaulted by Obama minions for speaking up. Worse still, you back him up on this.

I can not believe that the same people who were opposed to Bush tapping their phones are so quick to turn their medical records over to Kathleen Sebelius. The government can barely run anything – I have seen the handy work of the feds; Broken levees, broken promises, and FEMA. The postal service is billions in the red, and Amtrack has never made a profit.

The PEW Research Center (July 30, 2009)

Its at this point that right wingers point out how gun totting and violent we are and how many extra deaths that leads to.
Then they will defend every child’s right to carry an uziPosted by: Ryan C | Aug 7, 2009 1:56:40 PM=====
——-
Changing the subject again.
This is about a Chicago thug president, orchestrating assaults on those who oppose (by a majority) his seizure of the health care industry and attempt to ram highly rationed health care down our throats.
Enlisting advisors who advocate withholding care to those who have dementia, are handicapped and in any other way are unable to contribute to society.
Rahms Dr. brother Zeke, Obama’s senior advisor advocates and has been published on just such issues.
This is about the forced takeover of our lives and deaths by a megalomaniac who advocates physically assaulting those that talk back, who will force us to die when he decides we are no longer useful.
before any of you get hysterical look up Dr. Ezekial Emanuel, published in the british journal Lancet, and who authored a book advocating such nightmarish scenarios, published as recently as last january.
Obama’s senior advisor on health care who has this as a centerpiece of his career.

“.you cannot scale that large of a difference, especially factoring in the fact that we have 12+ illegal aliens.”
On cue the xenophobia rears its ugly head.
Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 7, 2009 2:15:28 PM
========================================Ryan, how about you make a valid arguement/debate and stop calling racism or xenophobia when one does not agree with your politial views?
Legal American tax Payers should not be funding illegal aliens-period. If they cannot come into this country like everyone else following our laws, they do not belong here.
They need to be sent back to their own country, let their country provide food stamps, medicaid/health care, housing, welfare, jobs and education.
When they are willing to follow our laws and wait in line like everyone else to come in here legally, only then will most of us be willing to help them out.
It is a shame you have to resort to falsly labeling people as racists and xenophobes because we do not believe in giving handouts to those who break out laws-shame on you!
I have zero issue with people coming into or country legally, but I have huge issue with those who do so in direct defiance of our laws!

NO OBAMA CARE:” Cause frankly you can take every penny from every rich person in this country and you still can’t pay for this crap.”
What nonsense. The cost of healthcare reform is estimated at about $100 billion a year (that’s $1 trillion over a 10 year period). If you took “every penny from” just THE THREE RICHEST AMERICANS – not three percent, but the three richest single people, that would pay for a whole year alone.
Healthcare for 10 years is estimated to cost about as much as the F-22 program (the fifth generation fighter that literally cannot fly in rain without costly damage).
A gross ignorance of the numbers is hardly a compelling argument for your side.

“democrats that supported slavery. It took a republican president to take action. Remember Lincoln?”
When Republicans have to go back 150 years to get their civil rights cred, you know they are in dire straits today. Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 7, 2009 2:07:54 PM=============================
Again, childish behavior. The poster as making a point that you are trying to dismiss my childish behavior.
The point is, Republicans were NOT responsible for slavery but rather ending slavery but to here the Democrats b@astardize history, you would think the whole Republican group since the early 1800′s were 100% responsible……..
BTW….how is Barbara Boxer’s (D-CA)racist self today?

jhw539 – You claim “Social Security, solvent. Medicare, solvent.”
They may be solvent now but with the planned decrease in revenues from payroll taxes due to the shrinking workforce (fewer young workers in relation to older workers)and the planned payouts due to increased number of seniors elgible for these programs under the current guidelines will result in both programs becoming unsustainable (bankrupt) in the near future.
Here is something you probably didn’t know about Social Security. Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, during the phase-in period of Social Security, Congress was able to grant generous benefit increases because the system had perpetual short-run surpluses. Congressional amendments to Social Security took place in even numbered years (election years) because the bills were politically popular, but by the late 1970s, this era was over. For the next three decades, projections of Social Security’s finances would show large, long-term deficits, and in the early 1980s, the program flirted with immediate insolvency. From this point on, amendments to Social Security would take place in odd numbered years (years that were not election years) because Social Security reform now meant tax increases and benefit reductions. When revenues exceed expenditures, as they have in most years, the excess is invested in special series, non-marketable U.S. Government bonds, thus the Social Security Trust Fund indirectly finances the federal government’s general purpose deficit spending. It is also interesting to note that the Supreme Court has established that no one has any legal right to Social Security benefits. The Court decided, in Flemming v. Nestor (1960), that “entitlement to Social Security benefits is not a contractual right”. In simple terms, the decision means that since no one has any legal right to Social Security benefits, Congress can cut or eliminate benefits at any time.
The Trust Fund is regarded by some as an accounting trick which holds no economic significance. Others argue that it has specific legal significance because the Treasury securities it holds are backed by the “full faith and credit” of the U.S. government, which has an obligation to repay its debt. It is important to note, however, that while the Treasury guarantees the interest and principal payments it makes to the Social Security Trust Fund, the benefit payments made from the Social Security Trust Fund to American retirees have no guarantee at all. The Social Security Administration’s authority to make benefit payments as granted by Congress extends only to its current revenues and existing Trust Fund balance, i.e., redemption of its holdings of Treasury securities. Therefore, Social Security’s ability to make full payments once annual benefits exceed revenues depends in part on the federal government’s ability to make good on the bonds that it has issued to the Social Security trust funds. The federal government’s ability to repay Social Security, in turn, is contingent on fiscal policies taken today (which have tended to increase deficits and the percent of the budget spent on interest and principal payments) and in the future. Once again in simple terms if you want Social Security then the government is going to have to reduce its debt (lower spending to pay off debt) or raise the FICA taxes to ensure that there is enough coming in during the current year to cover the benefits which are to be paid.

I am not what anyone would call a radical conservative or a member of the “demented right” as one intolerant person called people here. (This same person has ridiculed others for name-calling, by the way.) I have voted for candidates of both parties at all levels. I am not being paid to write this note, show up to disrupt town hall meetings, and do not have manufactured anger. I do not believe the private sector is universally evil, but there are some selfish people who give free enterprise a bad name. I also believe government is not all bad, but it typically is inefficient and cannot solve all our problems. In this instance, I have very genuine concerns about the healthcare bills that are being considered. While there may be some organizations that are taking advantage of the situation to promote their selfish causes and interests on both sides, I honestly believe there is real and genuine anger among regular people about the direction we are heading with taxes, deficits, privacy, etc.

“Latest polls show only 34% support the health care bill.”
_______________________________________
Jeb – but you missed a key point. People are negative about what’s going on with this bill – they don’t seem to understand or like the process – perhaps a communications failure on the part of Congress, the Senate, etc.
BUT, they do support many of the key provisions in the bill.
Nearly two-in-three (65%) favor requiring that all Americans have health insurance, with the government aiding those who cannot afford it.
Nearly as many (61%) favor requiring employers who do not provide insurance to pay into a government health care fund.
And there is broad support (79%) for prohibiting insurance companies from denying insurance to people with pre-existing conditions.
A 52 to 37 majority favor a government health insurance plan to compete with private plans.
There is broad support (63%) for raising the taxes on affluent people to help pay for changes to the health care system.

Edward:”Medicare, Medicaid are a huge mess. The fraud runs into the billions. ”
And what is the fraud rate FOR PRIVATE INSURANCE? Medicare has proven to have lower overhead than private while covering the population private insurers don’t want to touch. It’s a success.

NO OBAMA CARE:” Cause frankly you can take every penny from every rich person in this country and you still can’t pay for this crap.”
What nonsense. The cost of healthcare reform is estimated at about $100 billion a year (that’s $1 trillion over a 10 year period). If you took “every penny from” just THE THREE RICHEST AMERICANS – not three percent, but the three richest single people, that would pay for a whole year alone.
Healthcare for 10 years is estimated to cost about as much as the F-22 program (the fifth generation fighter that literally cannot fly in rain without costly damage).
A gross ignorance of the numbers is hardly a compelling argument for your side. Posted by: jhw539 | Aug 7, 2009 2:28:36 PM
=======================================
Ahhhh….it is not a gross ignorance of numbers, but rather the fact that you choose to look at it onsided.
$1.6 trillion is a lot of money-there is no other way to look at it. The factual information that the poster was referring to is that if you tax the top earners in America 100%, it will only fund health care for 6 months-that is factual-there are always two was to look at an issue.
For your jet comment: The jets will cost $122 million dollars and can last longer than 10 yrs pending they are not blown up or crashed-there are always two ways to look at an issue.
I actually have a better proposition: How about Congress and the IRS make GE pay taxes? As well, GE has the lowest tax rate by far among other large companies, thanks in part to having a majority of its business overseas.

Edward:”Why not let the goverment put together the healthcare reform bill, the one they plan to sign, then give it to the PEOPLE to examine and vote on? This way no can accuse them of ramming it through without READING it. Give it 60 days for the pulic to read and decide. ”
The house bill is available on line and has been for almost a week. Debate on it won’t even resume for several more weeks. I assume you are taking this time to read it, right?

sandcrab:”They may be solvent now but with the planned decrease in revenues from payroll taxes due to the shrinking workforce (fewer young workers in relation to older workers)and the planned payouts due to increased number of seniors elgible for these programs under the current guidelines will result in both programs becoming unsustainable (bankrupt) in the near future.”
The near future would be almost a decade away. And the current guidelines will OBVIOUSLY be changed, just as they have been before. Eligibility age will go up, people will work for a couple more years (continuing to pay taxes while at the peak of their earning power) and life will go on. This isn’t rocket science and has happened before. People will scream to high heaven about how a couple more years before the official retirement age is torture, but reality will force the issue (again).

“but this lie involves a 1.6 trillion dollar piece of legislation they’re trying to ram through congress without giving anyone the chance to read it.”
_____________________________________
“The house bill is available on line and has been for almost a week. Debate on it won’t even resume for several more weeks.”

There’s also the reality that 74% of voters rate the quality of care they now receive as good or excellent. And 50% fear that if Congress passes health-care reform, it will lead to a decline in the quality of that care.
Though voters are torn about reform, there is intensity among the opposition. Just 25% strongly favor the reform effort, while 41% are strongly opposed. And that gets back to the very first point: 68% currently have good or excellent coverage. It’s going to be hard to generate passionate support for change among this group of voters.
Scott R

“The point is, Republicans were NOT responsible for slavery but rather ending slavery but to here the Democrats b@astardize history, you would think the whole Republican group since the early 1800′s were 100% responsible……..”
ROFLMAO!
First when has a Democrat ever claimed that Republicans under Lincoln did not end slavery?
2nd, the Republican party did not exist in the early 1800s.
3rd, the history of the Republican party while starting out on a high note for civil rights and the protection of minorities has in the last 30 years grown steadily more racist and anti civil rights with the big shift coming during the 60′s when Democrats lost the South.

There was no violence before obama called out his union and ACORN thugs yesterday. The president issued the Sig Runes to his operatives and set them out against the U.S. Citizen to silence the voice of the People. This is not the action of a statesman, it is the action of a National Socialist Dictator.

Obama and Obama Dems are dividing the nation! The majority of Americans don’t want Obamacare.

“Obama has repeatedly told reporters in interviews that he wants to change it into a single payer system…but do it gradually over 15 years…but first Democrats need to take over congress and the Whitehouse.”
An examples of right wing dishonesty.
In 1993 Obama spoke of his preference for a single payer system.
In 1993 the Democrats enjoyed majorities in both chambers of COngress with their hold on the House having lasted 40 years. They also had just inaugurated a Democratic President.
But right wingers want to pretend he is speaking about that right now.
Obama’s has made his view clear on this that starting from scratch a single payer system would be the way to go (interview 2004) but that it will not work in the United States.

I have seen the handiwork of our Constitutional government too: The greatest, most prosperous free nation mankind has ever known. Americans are not a race, or a religion, we are defined by our culture and government structure. Our government, our country, is not a failure no matter how hard or loudly Republicans insist it is.
Posted by: jhw539 | Aug 7, 2009 2:30:07 PM
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That is because, as according to the Constiution, our country is to be ruled by and for the people, not by and for the government. The government has been and continues to be stepping into state affairs and pushing crap on the people they do not want. I am not shoving this all off on Obama, this happened during Bush’s term and Clinton’s term as well.
The government is getting too big for its britches and quit frankly, it needs to be knocked down a few notches.

KMDay:” give me 5 states where their governor is NOT complaining that medicare/medicaid is not causing financial strains on their economy-just 5.”
First off, complaining is NOT failing. Everyone complains about taxes, but they are the undenied best way to fund government.
And what states are grumbling about Medicare? Last I checked their complaints were they wanted MORE Medicare to reduce the burden on state programs.

“Show the video ABC. Show the black conservative being beaten by white union thugs. I dare you to show it over and over so there is an outcry.”
Not even Ashley Todd….err…Kennth Gladney is claiming that.

“3rd, the history of the Republican party while starting out on a high note for civil rights and the protection of minorities has in the last 30 years grown steadily more racist and anti civil rights with the big shift coming during the 60′s when Democrats lost the South.”
In the 60′s, the southern Democrats were the anti-civil rights crowd. So many democrats were against it (Democrat majority in the house) that it took republicans to pass the bill. Senator Robert Byrd, still in office to this day, was pro-segregation and even a member of the KKK. What exactly are you talking about here? However, I will not claim that the Republican party as a whole was anti-segregation. There were exceptions in that party as well. This was a struggle among all Americans, not any one party. So you must base it off stances against things like affirmative action. How is quotas based on race and gender not racist? When a law promotes one race over another, how is that not racist? Yet you believe that if someone takes a stance against this law, your racist. Maybe so if you don’t define racism as racism. So you believe that there must be race promotion in society, to undo the wrongs of the past and if you don’t support that, you must be racist when that very premise is in itself, racist. If any party has demonstrated racism in the last 30 years, its been the democratic party (if you are color blind, just as the definition of racism is).

2nd, the Republican party did not exist in the early 1800s.
3rd, the history of the Republican party while starting out on a high note for civil rights and the protection of minorities has in the last 30 years grown steadily more racist and anti civil rights with the big shift coming during the 60′s when Democrats lost the South. Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 7, 2009 2:49:44 PM
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Oh lord, I was making a point without giving an exact year, my apologies the year was 1854/55 somewhere in there.
how have the Republicans grown racist-I am being sincere on asking for answers and examples as to how this is so.

The bill also allows for your wages to be garnished and bank account numbers to be turned over to the state entity. You know, to pay for whatever they say you owe.

Ryan C:”Obama’s has made his view clear on this that starting from scratch a single payer system would be the way to go (interview 2004) but that it will not work in the United States.”
Hold on. Didn’t Obama say before an AFL-CIO conference in 2003 “A single payer health care plan, a universal health care plan. And that’s what I’d like to see. But as all of you know, we may not get there immediately. Because first we have to take back the White House, we have to take back the Senate, and we have to take back the House.” Done, done and done. Why should anyone believe he’s suddenly changed his mind? Sounds more like he’s quite content with an incremental approach to achieving single payer. This bill is a huge first step.

Politifact:
“In other statements, Obama has spoken favorably of single-payer in concept, but always adding qualifiers.
* In February 2004, about a month before the primary election in the U.S. Senate race, the Associated Press reported the stance of all the candidates on universal health care. “Obama says he supports the idea of universal health care but does not think a single-payer government system is feasible. He says the government should be the health care provider of last resort for the uninsured.” In a rundown of all the candidates’ positions, the Associated Press summarized Obama’s position as “Support, but ‘probably not at this stage,’ a single-payer government system.”
* In his book The Audacity of Hope , published in October 2006 when he was a U.S. senator, Obama described single-payer as the hope of the left, while those on the right wanted a market-based approach. “It’s time we broke this impasse by acknowledging a few simple truths,” Obama wrote, suggesting a system much like the one he supports today.
* In April 2007, a few months after he declared his candidacy for presidency, the Chicago Tribune reported, “Obama has pledged that, if elected, all Americans would have health-care coverage by the end of his first term. He has said he is reluctant to switch to a ‘single-payer’ national health insurance system because of the difficulty in making a quick transition from the employer-based private system.”
* At his town halls as president, he routinely answers questions about single-payer by saying he would favor it if he were starting a system “from scratch.” But he consistently adds that’s not the goal of the current reform. “For us to transition completely from an employer-based system of private insurance to a single-payer system could be hugely disruptive, and my attitude has been that we should be able to find a way to create a uniquely American solution to this problem that controls costs but preserves the innovation that is introduced in part with a free-market system,” Obama said in Annandale, Va., on July 1, 2009.”

Begining on pg 167, if you do not have a health care plan that the government approves on, they will tax you 2.5% of your GROSS INCOME or if you do not have health care or their approved of health care for a portion of the year they will tax you more as well:
Subpart A—Tax on Individuals Without Acceptable Health Care Coverage
Sec. 59B. Tax on individuals without acceptable health care coverage.
SEC. 59B. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLEHEALTH CARE COVERAGE.‘‘(a) TAX IMPOSED.—In the case of any individual who does not meet the requirements of subsection (d) at any time during the taxable year, there is hereby imposed a tax equal to 2.5 percent of the excess of—‘‘(1) the taxpayer’s modified adjusted gross income for the taxable year, over‘‘(2) the amount of gross income specified in section 6012(a)(1) with respect to the taxpayer.
‘‘(2) PRORATION FOR PART YEAR FAILURES.—
The tax imposed under subsection (a) with respect to any taxpayer for any taxable year shall not exceed the amount which bears the same ratio to the amount of tax so imposed (determined without regard to this paragraph and after application of paragraph (1)) as—‘‘(A) the aggregate periods during such taxable year for which such individual failed to meet the requirements of subsection (d), bears to‘‘(B) the entire taxable year

It is beyond irresponsible to portray the conflict as one between opponents and supporters of the President’s proposals. (It is also kind of odd to hear the lobbyists described as a “movement”)
The majority of people who come to these town hall debates who are unaffiliated come because they support a single-payer system. These are not people who come to support the President’s proposals.
Come to think of it, the President doesn’t even HAVE a proposal. Where is THAT line coming from?
This post is mixed up in so many ways – it should be pulled offline before it causes even more confusion.

I like how the newspaper account has been “updated” to make it seem like the opponents of health care socialization were the aggressors, despite first-hand accounts confirming that the union thugs were behind the violence.

So, the video of him on the ground with 2 SEIU/Obama goons standing over him and then later one of Obama’s goons responding to another said “He attacked America, so we attacked him” was part of an elaborate hoax?
Posted by: Concerned in OH |
Actually they were making a training video for how SEIU plans to implement card check.

I posted part of the bill here: Asked the “PRO-SIDE” to answer a question for me. BUT, no answered. I guess I should be happy that I was just ignored and not called names for questioning? You all want constructive conversation, but yet, when someone asks a question AND QUOTES something in the Bill, you either accuse them of something or just don’t answer.

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Obama, The Great DIVIDER
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Obama sold himself as the great UNITER but he’s created the worse division in this country in decades.

ajax659 – what is ur concern exactly?
Congress projects that the healthcare bill will be about 140 billion a year.
We spent more than 800 billion on defense and homeland security in 2008. The U.S. military budget is almost as much as the rest of the world’s defense spending combined.
I thihnk we can figure out how to pay for healthcare if that is your concern… one way would be to take some money from useless defense contracts. And as we reform healthcare costs will go down making it cheaper for everyone.
The other most expensive parts of the US budget are social security and mdicare. These costs will be reduced with healthcare reform.
The following are the stated goals of Obama healthcare reform:
Reduce long-term growth of health care costs for businesses and government
Protect families from bankruptcy or debt because of health care costs
Guarantee choice of doctors and health plans
Invest in prevention and wellness
Improve patient safety and quality of care
Assure affordable, quality health coverage for all Americans
Maintain coverage when you change or lose your job
End barriers to coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions
Are any of you really against this stuff? We need more doctors and healthier americans… I dont understand how you can be against that.

I would also like to add. I am one of those Americans who already have Health Care. I have worked since I was 10 years old on the farm, to the Grocery Store at 14 thru School and then to the USMC to getting out, getting my Degree and working until I was able to start my own business. No it isn’t big, but my little Company does pretty good. I have a very good Insurance Policy that I work and pay for. I know there are things my Insurance company can deny me coverage on, but I know that if I can afford it, I CAN elect to get the procedure anyway and pay for it out of my pocket.
Is this Health Care Bill going to allow me the same?

For the person who said Cuban healthcare was so great:
HAVANA (Reuters) – Cuba, in the grip of a serious economic crisis, is running short of toilet paper and may not get sufficient supplies until the end of the year, officials with state-run companies said on Friday

The difference in racist statements being 100 years apart shows that there is still racism alive and well. My quotes from Lyndon Johnson are not 100 years old. Again I ask, why is ABC not playing the video of the black conservative being beaten by white Obama thugs (SEIU)? It is because democrats are not really interested in ending racism. They need it in order to try and brainwash black constituents into voting their way. Fascists need to have their supporters believe they are oppressed in order to win their support. There was a real fanatic in Germany who did just that in 1939 and I think you know what happened. There may not be mass murder coming but what is being killed is the dream that was America.

As I tried to say before…these are not town hall meetings to learn about health care. Free speech is for both sides but these people will not allow anyone to talk. That makes them a mob. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but both sides have to be heard if it is to be a ligitimate meeting. I fear that if this persists, something bad will be the result and that would be a shame.

2 Ply | Aug 7, 2009 5:13:59 PM….Forget Cuba. All you need to do is ask any Canadian or Brit who needs an MRI what the they think about being told it will be 6 months (especially seriouos if you suspect a brain tumor). In the case of Cnandians, they come to the US if they can afford to.

Citizen – You Said “We spent more than 800 billion on defense and homeland security in 2008. The U.S. military budget is almost as much as the rest of the world’s defense spending combined.
I thihnk we can figure out how to pay for healthcare if that is your concern… one way would be to take some money from useless defense contracts.”
Only problem here is that under Article 1 of the Constitution Congress is directed to fund the military and NOWHERE in Article 1 is Congress given the powers to fund healthcare. When the idiots in DC take the time to read the Constitution instead of deciding it says what they want it to we will bw better off. If they want the Constitution to do something that it doesn’t give them the power to do then they need to use the procedures of Article 5 which states “The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.”
Pretty simple follow the words in the Constitution as written and if you want to change it ammend it.

What’s interesting is how you have folks screaming about how the government isn’t “explaining” its plan for healthcare making little to no effort to educate themselves. The ease by which they are blindly motivated makes me laugh. As an independent it is precisely this reason why I (and millions of other independents) pay little to no attention to the Republican Party. It’s as if they’ve written off intelligent people entirely. (lol) Insane…….

The current plan to “reform healthcare’ will destroy thousands and thousands of businesses. The idiots on the hill require businesses to pay for premiums based upon the amount of payroll they have. The amount of payroll bears no correlation to whether a company makes enough to pay the bill! In my case, the bill will be $360,000 per year, because I employ lots of low paid service workers ($10 per hour). I make less than a third of that amount. When I go bankrupt, my employees lose their jobs and you pick up the tab. Good luck sheep as you follow the annointed one off the side of a cliff.

We can conduct a stupid useless war for 7 years and nobody seems to get excited about that. Health care has been pushed off the table for years because no party has had the political back bone. We need it NOW. There will never be any perfect plan but lets get started

America does not need a government run health care program. America has done better than any other country in this world. American’s do not want it. If there are problem areas fix those but don’t fix something that’s not broken.
Representative need to represent their constituents not fight with them.

Are the congress=senate etc going to be included in this health care reform? I think not!! They don’t want any part of it – don’t kid yourself they know what they got going is good for them!! Same as social security = they have their own

I am 73 years old, have worked since I was 9. I have Medicare with a Supplemental policy from my former Employer. I pay about $150/mo ($90 to Medicare; balance for Drug and other coverage) I take almost no medications and only get an annual Physical, so I am not using near what I pay for…but I oppose coverage to Illegals, and forcing people who don’t want it, to buy it anyway…People who don’t want it, make a choice to spend their money on other things, so let them pay for their own services when they need them…
Government has screwed up Social Security and Medicare, so why would this be any different???
Voters are fed up with this Administration’s efforts to push something down their throats which they don’t want…These protests are a result of it…
NO SOCIALIZED MEDICINE…

This IS the United States.. the Greatest.. yes the Greatest Country on Earth! I am Proud to be an American, proud and grateful of my fellow Americans who are serving and protecting this Great Country for me and my family. It will be a cold day in hell when government runs health care & tells me and my Doctor what to do about my health care needs. Stay Strong fellow Americans we are going to need each other.

Civil rights demonstrations, anti-war demonstrations, pro-abortion rights demonstrations, environmental demonstrations, I don’t remember the media obsessing about who got these people out to the demonstration site DO YOU?

I vote NO on the new government health bill or maybe I don’t even get to vote.
I think all americans should get to vote on the Health bill in November.

Everyone I talk to objects to government run, one payer health care. The government can not run anything successfully. Look at Medicare, the Post Office, SEC, SS, FannyMae, etc. And no one in the news media or the government is explainning how this cuurent proposal will cut medical costs as Obama kees saying. As an independent who looked for improvement in government I am very disappointed.

CBO:
In sum, relative to current law, the proposal would probably generate substantial increases in federal budget deficits during the decade beyond the current 10-year budget window.
As far as I can see the CBO does not expect it to lower health care costs. If someone else can find it please let me know.
Dingle was wrong, currently the bill will fund abortions. They had voted them out but had a revote and removed that amendment.
It isn’t exactly a balanced budget bill, costs for government escalates after 10 years, the CBO reports do say that. The CBO cannot by law estimate past 10 years. Many of the costs are deferred past the 10 year limit if you read the bill.
There is to much government involment and control in health care, deciding new training for medical professinals, and all other areas.
There is to much left to the Secratary and the Commission, and other buerocrats, including what is covered based upon cost effectivness research, and various other things. Doctors and patients need to be able to consider what care is needed.

I am disabled and I am covered by good insurance through my wife’s policy and also by Medicare. Both provide excellent coverage for me, but I worry about the millions of Americans who do not have health insurance through no fault of their own. Two of my adult children cannot afford coverage although they have worked their entire adult lives. We have a friend who had to retire due to a serious health condition and his insurance premium went up to $1,600.00 a month. He cannot afford to pay that premium on his retirement income, yet without insurance coverage, he cannot afford to pay for his cancer treatment. Without treatment, he will die, so many of his friends send a monthly stipend to help him pay his $1,600.00 monthly insurance premium. The organized protesters keep screaming that they do not want “government-run” insurance, yet if they receive Medicare, they are ALREADY receiving government-run insurance. I don’t know anyone receiving Medicare who does not feel that it provides good coverage for them. Now, the new government sanctioned Medicare prescription drug coverage is another matter. This is a very complicated program which appears to have been designed to benefit the drug companies more than it benefits the seniors. Yet, I didn’t see anyone screaming protests when the Bush administration pushed through this program WITHOUT any provisions to pay for it AND with a stipulation that no one was allowed to negiotate with the drug companies for lower prices on prescription drugs. The Obama administration has REPEATEDLY said that anyone who is happy with their current health insurance can KEEP it under the new plan. They are NOT proposing that the government take over health care, ONLY that a government-run plan be offered as an OPTION. Yet, I believe many of the insurance companies are opposed to this plan because it might force them to stop taking advantage of so many Americans. Before my wife switched to an HMO, we used to be routinely denied coverage for nearly every claim we submitted for payment to our insurance company. She had to write letters, make phone calls and even go to the insurance company office to argue before the majority of our routine medical bills were paid. I know many people who still experience this type of treatment from their private insurance companies. Yet, I hear far fewer such horror stories from people who are currently insured by Medicare. So, I believe the insurance companies are stirring up much of this anger in order to protect their own profit margins.

To get the average American to agree to ObamaCare requires accepting five propositions. First, that 70% who have insurance can pay for the 30% without and somehow this will result in the cost of healthcare declining. Second, that the entitlements under the program will never increase, as every other entitlement program has, thereby raising the cost and the subsequent deficit. Third that the Congress has not low balled the costs. One only has to look at Medicare, another Democratic program shoved down our throats when they controlled both houses, to see that their projection for the year 2000 was off by 1,000%, and not to the good. Fourth, that although the CBO shows a widening deficit gap out to year ten magically the gap will become zero in year eleven. And finally, there is enough money made by the top 5% of wage earners to pay for it all, a proposition that can only occur if all their money was confiscated.

Will Congress and President Obama be insured by the same health plan they are proposing for American citizens??? Will the illegal immigrants be insured with us paying the bill???

All those pushing for nationalized health care need to talk to citizens in Canada and find out how many months and years they somtimes have to wait to see a doctor or have a surgery. It also is not free. they pay for it in the form of taxes. As long as it takes in U.S. to get in to see a specialist, I can not imagine how long it will take if people think it is free.

Great for all the protestors! Where was the outrage when protestors walked the streets shutting them down, for citizenship amnesty, global warming, and anti-Iraq protests?
None.
“The chickens are coming home”!

Health Insurance provided by the same goverment idiots who run the Post Office? I don’t think so…

Best thing that President Obama can do right now is cease all action on fixing our nation’s broken health care system…. that’s what he should do.
According to the non-partisan, National Coalition on Health Care (with a Board of Directors comprised of both Republican and Democratic members), here are some facts:
(1) Annual health care spending in the U.S.has been increasing two to five times the rate of inflation since 2000.
(2) Surging health care costs slow the rate of job growth by making it more expensive for companies to add new workers.
(3) As health care costs rise, corporate operating margins are cut, which reduces the capacity of firms to grow by investing in research, plant and equipment.
So… my advice to President Obama would be to do nothing, and allow national health care costs to rise during the next 4 years, at twice the rate of inflation.
Then, when this becomes a topic of discussion in the 2012 elections, all that President Obama needs to say is, “Well, I tried to do something about it, but the Republicans road blocked the entire attempt.”
This will definitely ensure that once again, more Republicans are kicked out of office in the 2012 elections….. LOL.
Simple solution!! I agree with this whole-heartedly!
(For More Information, Google “National Coalition on Health Care” and click on “Facts About Health Care”, “Economic Costs”)

Hey Edward!!! ….. LOL …… No, this is NOT “just about elections”. The fact is the republican party controlled the White House for the past 8 years (and did absolutely nothing about the “exponentially” rising cost of health care)…. ANNNND…. they controlled the congress from 1995 to 2007… and again, did absolutely nothing about the exponentially rising cost of health care (twice the rate of inflation)… and now they resort to sending their mobs out to town hall meetings… Give me a break Edward! LOL.
Hey, I have my health care for life (military), but I also have relatives who can barely make ends meet because health care in the good ol’ U.S.A. has become outrageous.
If the republicans “realllllllly” want to fix the problem, sending teams of “screamers” to these town hall meetings does ABSOLUTELY nothing good.
Copito?!!!

Strange…. the dems have held congress for more then 2 years. They are no better then any of the repubs. All I am saying is if health care is such a problem there are things that can be implemented other then a complete takeover of health care.
1. Fix Medicare & medicaid first.
2. Tort reform would be a good starting point.
3. Caps on premiums to insurance co’s.
4. Offer a policy that covers only what YOU want coverage for. (sort of like home owners insurance, they only pay if the house burns, floods or is destroyed).
The point is we need LESS goverment intervention in our daily lives not more. We don’t need more red tape. You served our country and have coverage for the rest of your life, that’s great. I have paid for my coverage for the past 15-18 years. It is expensive. It will get more expensive with less coverage if washington has their hand in the cookie jar. Sort of like SS.
Why won’t goverment commit to enrolling in this very same plan? If it’s going to be so great? They have the cadillac of coverge that WE pay for for the rest of their lives, and yet they will not give any of it up to participate in a plan they want everyone else to accept. Just too many questions and not enough answers.

In the video of the altercation, the first person on the ground is a blue shirted union member. To me, that shows he was probably hit first. No matter.
This country has gone to hell. 30 years of conservative rule has ripped any shred of decency left. There is no empathy or compassion for fellow citizens. Right wing nutjobs have taken over.
I have saved up 2 years wages. My college educated wife has been looking for work for 18 months with no luck. As soon as I have all our paperwork together we are leaving this country to one where the people understand that all people are to be treated with a minimum standard of dignity and respect. Not this survival of the fittest nightmare the right wing has created.
Never in my life have I thought it would be like this here in America. We are regressing at an alarming rate.
All you people that hope for no change in the medical system here, someday soon you will be very, very sorry for your shortsightedness.

Best of Luck Mike, where ever you end up. Not sure you will find the idealistic country that you exclaim to be looking for.
Universal health care under a single-payer system (especially run by the government) will definately be a nightmare. Having experienced the Tricare system in the military, which is run by a private company on contract for the military, I don’t recommend any single-payer system. I will give some real examples that I have experienced.
Under Tricare, visits to emergency rooms or urgent care facilities required either pre-approval or be a matter of “life, limb, or sight” threatening. Failure to get the approval meant you were responsible for the bill. To accomodate the pre-approval process, doctors/nurses manned telephones to talk with individuals to validate the need for care. Sensible enough right? Until your in the emergency/urgent care room trying to make phone calls seeking care for your children whom fell out of a tree, hit by a baseball, or sickened with food poisoning while on vacation. Try explaining to a crying child that the doctor can’t see them until the voice on the phone says its okay.
Also, for anybody who believes the idea that “if you like your plan/doctor, you can keep them” doesn’t understand business. My employer decides which plans I’m offered to choose from since they pay a portion of it. So, if the government plan is cheaper, then I’ll be forced on to the government plan because it will save money for the company. By inclusion of a public option is not an attempt to keep insurance companies in check. Its the slippery slope that leads to a single-payer system and government run health care. The public option will always be cheaper since it won’t have to make a profit and with the government’s help mandate the reimbursement rate for what will be paid to the doctors/hospitals for any specific procedure. Which is what is done now for each government plan.

All I can say about health care, don’t blame on me and I didn’t vote.

I think if we saw a govt. option for chronically ill we’d see a huge increase in cures for diseases. This could very well be the good side of govt. at work. A new streamlined focused govt. program that works for all. Everybody ablebodied, however must be expected to step up to teh plate and participate in their own healthcare security by purchasisng health insurance. No more govt. dole for multiple ER births.

Keith Said: “Under Tricare, visits to emergency rooms or urgent care facilities required either pre-approval or be a matter of “life, limb, or sight” threatening. Failure to get the approval meant you were responsible for the bill.”
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Keith, I would have to disagree with you. I’m under the exact same TRICARE military health care and have been absolutely happy with it.
Regarding your comment about emergency care… Yes, the military medical system want’s actual “emergencies” in their emergency rooms, not people that are too lazy to pick up a phone and call the TRICARE Hotline for an appointment through their regular care giver. I have used the TRICARE Hotline and have been able to get same day appointments, and no later than next day appointments for things that were NOT emergencies.
Lastly, my son did fall out of a tree here in Germany. We called the military medical system, they sent a German ambulance and immediately took him to a German hospital. No problems… and we “thought” this was an emergency. Turned out he was only bruised up. TRICARE paid the German hospital bill…. IN FULL.

I just heard Sarah Pallin’s comment of the insurance plan. I hope that Republicans will stop making exaggerated statements. It could backfire on what many correctly feel is wrong for this country. There is already too much unjustified blame being heaped on particular groups for what is happening at the town hall meetings. I know many registered Democrats who have done their homework and are dead set against it. Just because you question the provisions of this bill does not put you in any particular group. Being intelligent enough to want answers is what we should be applauding regardless of any particular affilication.

Please, no one has answered my question. What program does the government run that does not need to be fixed or is not broke? Can any one name one program?

….lowes…as if ACORN knows anything about economics and how the mortgage markets work…didn’t stop them from contributing to the worst financial collapse since the Depression. You can’t tell me that MoveOn.org, Georgie Soros, Americorps, OrganizeAmerica and others are not behind protests on the Left. Your side states this is Freedom of Assembly…so do the Repubs.

My wife and I have Medicare with Tricare as a supplement. The only problem has been that many doctors and pharmacies will not take Medicare/Tricare because the payments are low and slow. I am a veteran with a service connected disability but Prescription drugs cost less using Tricare than the VA. Having experience with the VA I can tell you that you don’t want VA type medical coverage unless it is a last resort. The VA tries but the government bureaucracy is over whelming. As to the “mobs” these people are part of a mob only when they disagree with you.

The party of “NO”, the G.O.P. has put itself in a position where it is no longer acting in the best interests of the Country. The Party and its subsidiaries, are in a full waged “war” against the Obama Administration and the Legislature, by way of gossip and innuendo. It is easy for a party and its cohorts to refer to these strategies and then denounce them later after all the damage has been done. As a monster with no head they easily can say, “we as a party, would not support that position” even though will under the “covers” they are fully supporting positions, such as the “birthers” and “townhall protesters” present. Even more so their ability to be revisionists to history. It is obvious their goal is to disrupt the process, disintegrate the end result, and dilute its effectiveness and are already prepared to call “failure”, pass those costs onto others and profiteer off the system. While stirring up peoples greatest fears and using old “Cold War” rhetoric to appeal to peoples historical fears. It is time, to call this behavior nothing more that what is is: disruptive to the process, critical to the point of getting this country destabilized , off track, and truly Un-American.

JMunoz says it is unAmerican to protest policies if it is something he is for.
Maybe the Left is beginning to realize they are not a majority and now are resorting to sending union thugs to beat up peaceful protesters.
Conversefive, I hope you do go to the meeting. Don’t be intimidated and take a camera. If the Left is going to resort to thug tactics to stop us let them do it. It will be the end of them. Kenneth Gladney is now an American hero. And the SEIU punks that beat him are in jail.

Keith, I made no mention of Tri-Care and have never heard of it. You must have the wrong person.

Me too, rednorth.

You people always choose what you want to report. You missed the main story about about middle America not trusting obama since he has already lied about “transparency of government”. And, how can you add millions of illegal aliens to a system and then lower costs. Another big lie by obama. There is much much more you people refuse to report!

You can sign the petition for house resolution 615 that would require Congress to include themselves in the healthcare bill at:
http://www.fleming.house.gov/index.html
It has been quite busy this afternoon, but keep trying. If it is not good enough for them, it is not good enough for us.

Two things: Gadney has no medical insurance. Also video on You tube shows what happened. Ah, his claims are not believable.
Posted by: sharon | Aug 9, 2009 9:02:00 PM
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sharon, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Gladney has insurance, and he’s currently unemployed – he used to work at an optical store. Also, you are suggesting that he wasn’t actually beat up – that he’s not believable – when his injuries landed him in the hospital for an overnight stay? He was later in a wheelchair with his knee bandaged?
Are you serious?
FACT: there were 5 SEIU goons that were arrested for assaulting Gladney – Gladney was not arrested. I guess they just have gotten it all wrong then too – according to you.
How you can impugn Gladney with false facts, ad hominem attacks, in just a lowball effort to score some weak, tattered political points, is really sickening to me.

To JONESMUNOZ August 9 3:53.37
Can you tell me that you honestly want a bill that is written by a group that have excluded themselves from any present or future adverse fall out?

Our Political beliefs, parties etc. should have nothing to do with our acceptance or refusal of the present version of H.R.3200.
Research it and form your own conclusions.
All of the contention involving the healthcare bill could be instantly resolved if Congress and the President would announce that they are starting over from scratch and any new version will include them and every legal American on an equal basis. We should all refuse to support any bill that does otherwise. For Congress to write and pass a bill that would have no affect on them, at any time, is the underlying reason for all of the protests. I have written, phoned and emailed my members of Congress and receive mostly form letters in return, some of which have absolutely nothing to do with any of the issues I addressed and for some I received no response at all. If others have gotten this same response, that is probably why some town meetings have gotten out of hand. I realize that they haven’t time to read each and every thing that they receive, but when you repeatedly ask the same question it seems someone should get the message to them. I have had the same response to the President’s ‘open government site’ and even though I requested a reply I received none.
Medical Reform is needed, but in a fair minded way and in a way that this country can afford. The claim that it would be cheaper is at this point is neither true nor false. There is no way to accurately assess the short term or long term costs, particularly not in H.R3200. Our country is a republic, not a dictatorship and all federal workers, in all positions, work for us and Congress is supposed to speak for us. If they choose not to, 2010 will be here soon and it will be a good start to find new members who will. Their safety nets, enacted by them, have put them out of touch with the rest of us.
Another reform, desperately needed, is term limits in both the House and the Senate.

Search Warrant filed at Los Angeles, California on Thursday in the court of Clark Country, Nevada. And brought out the underneath proof that Jackson is a drug addict, Murray implies the investigators seeking into the death of Jackson believing that Michael was a drug addict.
The warrant signed by District Judge Timothy Williams, Searching was done at Los Angeles in the Office and home of Dr. Conrad Murray, which en lighted that there is an excessive prescription done to a Drug addict. Which is considered as an illegal way of treating as per the norms.
It is found as per the investigators in to the death of the Jackson says that they found numerous bottles of prescription drug in his $100,000 a month rented mansion in Holm by Hills. Murray is on main focus as he is considered as a main person responsible for the death of the Pop stars.
The Los Angeles police taking in the responsibility in checking out thoroughly with Murray contact information and investigations are going on with Murray contacting means like cell phones including his home.
Michael Jackson’s ex-wife and the mother of his two oldest children, Debbie Rowe, has agreed not to challenge the singer’s mother for custody of the children, according to a joint statement from lawyers for Rowe and Katherine Jackson

I made a mistake on my prior email. The name of the author of the article ‘Obama’s House Is Falling Down’ is Daniel Greenfield and he writes for the Canadian Pree Press.