“We Have a Tire Track On Our Chest”: President Obama Faces Possible Rebellion of House Democrats

jpt writes:
“Any plan I sign must include an insurance exchange…including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest,” President Obama said on June 23.
“But over the weekend, Obama seemed to downplay the importance of the inclusion of the plan in health care reform legislation.”
–> Aw, c’MON, Mr. Tapper! We know you wanna go to the ball and all — and get called on by the jibbering Gibbs — but “seemed”?
Der Won didn’t even say “chunk” or “hunk”. Not even “gobbet”. Do you suppose He misspoke, like Sebelius, and actually meant to say “splinter” (how do splinters and slivers even COMPARE, size-wise?).
This could be another “teachable moment” calling for full immersion in something sedating. (Wake em up again in 2012, when it’s over.)

I smell Lame Duck cooking….

So how’d the “centerpiece” become a “sliver”? Obama’s not “chasing” a rabbit — he IS the rabbit.
Here’s hoping ALL the Democrats find their collective backbone, and vote in Weiner’s Single Payer amendment when they return, thereby ditching the treacherous Obama AND his big bad bus.
Otherwise, they can kill this pig bill, and enact Single Payer right, in the Dean administration of 2012.
Der Won is done.

“What a coward.”
–> It’s CERTAINLY not Rep. Weiner who’s a crybaby and a coward.
psst: it’s Obama who’s a crybaby and a coward.

It’s CERTAINLY not Rep. Weiner who’s a crybaby and a coward.
psst: it’s Obama who’s a crybaby and a coward.
Everyone settle down. It is obvious that the protests Rep. Weiner faced were not representative of the American people. I was there. Some suspiciously well-dressed types were clearly wearing Brooks Brothers clothing.
Full disclosure:
I prefer Zegna suits myself.

Coming to a theater near you! Don’t miss the politcal thriller, “They Eat Their Own”!!!

Obama has no options that end well for him. He has painted himself into a corner. Fifty Blue Dogs cannot vote for a public option while 100 extremists threatening to go nuclear and vote for a public option amendment. What a collosal blunder.

“Weiner’s constituents voted him in mainly because they wanted a Democratic majority in order to pass single-payer legislation. He should listen to his constituents.”
Why? Rep. Massa in California is on record saying he will ignore the will of the people who elected him and vote against the will of his constituents in order to vote for a single payer option.

The real story with this fiasco is that that the people running congress tried to get the vote on this prior to the August recess. That would be prior to any public comment or debate. Also prior to any of them reading it.
That whole nasty business of trying to sneak one by the American people is what got them in trouble. They sold out all of their social margin and good will from the people. We now know they cannot be trusted – as well as they are for the most part totally unqualified.
Who among congress would you trust to run any business let alone one in which all of our health and the future of the country depends. Speaking of “depends” shouldn’t there be an age limit on these gaffers?

I ‘blame’ Sarah Palin and George Boosh, too. ;7)

I hate having to say this, but better no “reform” legislation come out of Congress at all, if it doesn’t even have that “sliver” of a public plan to compete against the insurance lizards. Better Obama fade to irrelevance, lose in 2012, and the whole corrupt hodge-podge “system” we now have collapse under its own weight during the Republican administration now almost guaranteed to take over in 2012. Lord, have mercy.

Promises will be made on other items to soothe the liberals. The public option is most definitely dead in this round of legislation.

“So he’s going to do his job and vote for what he thinks is in their best interests, regardless of their current uninformed opinion? How ghastly. Obviously his job is just to read the polls, not actually think and analyze legislation.”
Thank you very much for this most excellent example of liberal elitism. Representative Massa’s job is first and foremost to REPRESENT the people of his district. Remember, it’s “of the people, by the people and for the people”, not “without regard to people”. It doesn’t get any more basic than this.
It’s good to know Mr. Massa is not alone with his belief that he alone knows what’s best for his district. Pride cometh before the fall, over and over and over again.

Wasn’t it that old Republican warlord Rumsfeld who said ‘Democracy is messy’.
Republicans would like everything as neat and tidy as a ‘surgical military strike’ that takes out hundreds of civilians.
I agree with the old warlord on this one – Democracy isn’t tidy – and we’re seeing that in action with this health care discussion.
All the salivating for failure from the right will be for nought – we’re going to see some very good stuff come out of this negotiating and debate.

There is still no denying that Obama, Pelosi and Reid are screwing up their numbers advantage in every imaginable way. They’ve simply reached too far, too fast in the midst of a severe recession. Hubris? Pride? Inexperience in leading? Congnitive dissonance? Take your pick, it doesn’t really matter. They can’t even find a way to stop the bleeding.

“Representative Massa’s job is first and foremost to REPRESENT the people of his district.”
So Woody,
Should a Congressman hold polls on every bill and vote accordingly to which side wins?
Or should he vote what he thinks best for his constituency/country and face them at the ballot box??

jhw:regardless of their current uninformed opinion?
========
While I agree it is not always best for a politician to simply vote the way the polls in his district tell him to— why are you accusing people who disagree with him “uninformed”?
Very well informed people can have different opinions about laws that impact their lives.

“Anyhow, just like a corporate CEO, if a Congressman’s hand picked and directly managed staff has read, analyzed, and fully briefed the Congressman on the bill that’s as good of better than if he personally read it cover to cover.”
Ah, yes! All around us in the US, in medicine! public architecture and education! our glorious highways! our incomparable broadcast media! our millions of incorruptible non-profit facilities! we see the civic glories of the corporate system in which each hereditary warlord is advised by self-interested tribesmen who are paid, by those who can pay a lot, for their opinions on how best to suppress and torment the rabble.

I never thought Obama would fail so miserably this early in his term. I am embarassed of the way he has run (or let others run) the Whitehouse. I hope her only serves one term.

Let’s just do away with politicians making decisions altogether. We can just vote on everything like they do on American Idol.

“If John Kerry and the media hadn’t sabotaged the Dean campaign in 2004 — and brought in cute and principle-free Obama to succeed Kerry after Kerry threw the election away — Dean would BE president.”
Doubtful. Dean being head of the DNC was important
“And we’d have Single Payer, no illegal wars, and the several trillion dollars Obama’s funnele into the corporations, WOULDn’t have been.”
Belle Starr living in her own little world.
If Howard Dean wins in 2004 the Dems may not retake the House and Senate in 2006.
The focus in the war on terror shifts to Afghanistan because Howard Dean was a hawk on Afghanistan but Iraq remains an issue.
And single payer?
OntheIssues:”"

“Or should he vote what he thinks best for his constituency/country and face them at the ballot box??”
“Face them” with his pockets so full of corporate donations with which to sway “public” opinion, at a corporate ballot box designed for er fungibility, bolstered only by the sure knowledge that 96% if those elected to Congress — even when Congressional “approval” has sunk to nearly nothing — will be RE-elected to Congress … usually until the unconquerable “representative” tips at last into his/her grave. Or marble pyramid, or whatever.

So President Obama even hints at actually doing what he promised he would do when he came to Washington– be a “different” kind of politician who would reach across the aisle, listen to good ideas regardless of their source, work together with people of a variety of perspectives for the common good– and liberals in the House jump on him with both feet? Great. And Republicans get smacked around as the “party of no”? Never made much sense to me, especially given that they never had the votes to stop anything on their own.

People on Medicare telling the government to stay out of their healthcare?
==========
Does that describe everyone who opposes the “reform”, Ryan?
And yes, people on Medicare have every right and responsibility to question how these bills would save the oodles of money Obama is promising they will. That will affect them.
Or are you going to say, if we ever have a broader public plan, that the people on it have no right to disagree with the government’s decisions about it?

Bet Noir:” we see the civic glories of the corporate system in which each hereditary warlord is advised by self-interested tribesmen who are paid, by those who can pay a lot, for their opinions on how best to suppress and torment the rabble. ”
You’re funny. There is no question that the US is the most powerful, prosperous free county mankind has ever seen. Our government structure is the worst – except for all the other options. Certainly plenty of room for improvement, but if you really think it’s that bad you should get out and find someplace more to your liking to live. There isn’t going to be any major changes to the US, just a lot of vicious fighting over tweaking at the edges (like this battle over a public insurance option that the CBO predicts might serve up to 1 in 10 employed Americans by 2019 – hardly a sweeping reform, despite the terror it inspires in $100 million/year health insurance CEOs).

I’m a big Dean fan. I though he did a great job on George’s show when he handled Newt pretty easily and even resisted George’s attempts to steer the conversation away from what he wanted instead of just gliding through the interview. He’s a real standup guy in my opinion.

Davedillion, what “negotiating and debate” are you talking about? I do not see much negotiating in earnest (well, unless you count the ‘no, you can’t know what we agreed to’ deals with groups like big pharma agreed to by the White House) or any interest in real debate.
Dems want to pretend that all Republicans and all conservatives want to do is rant about ‘death panels,’ when actually there are good ideas out there that are not being taken seriously because they don’t come from someone with a D after his or her name. They need a boogeyman to fight against, and they have seized on Palin and ‘death panels’ as their tool. Just like a few weeks ago, when everyone kept bringing up “birthers” and wanting to talk about how wrong-headed they were, as if most of the president’s critics on health care and other matters were hard-core birther fringers. It was a nice distraction, but it apparently became played out, so they latched on the ‘death panel’ stuff and continue to rail against that even after the language in the bill that started the controversy was removed and even after lots of critics of the Democratic bills made clear they did not believe in some sort of ‘death panel’ conspiracy.
I do not see a lot of serious engagement with serious critics of the current proposals, but a lot of labelling and demagoguing on all sides. It is disheartening to say the least.

Tire tracks on their chests? Liberal “allies”? I thought allegiance amongst liberals was like honor amongst thieves. Anyhow, Weiner and his peeps are simply expected to get out there, toe the party line, vote in favor of what Nancy and the gang put out, and–if they happen to not get reelected, no worries, Obama is still up there, safe and sound–kneel before Zod. Alternatively, Congress could find its Constitutional power and actually put together some legislation that people could get behind. It has to be wrapped in American values of freedom, liberty, choices and small government. If it’s not that, then the White House should get bent and Congress thrown out on their arse.

So the Mesiah has encountered the wall of freedom.He has beautiful rethoric, he has nice words and more ( teleprompter) but has shown even more and that is that he is rookie in politics.He flirted too much and now he can’t deliver. He is loosing the confidence of those who voted for him and given enough ammunition to opposite side to get his allies out of Washington with a one way ticket. 2010 is going to be Change you can believe on.

“Dems want to pretend that all Republicans and all conservatives want to do is rant about ‘death panels,’ when actually there are good ideas out there that are not being taken seriously because they don’t come from someone with a D after his or her name.”
Who is discussing these ideas?
Every right wing blog, forum, talk radio, FoxNews, a great deal of Republicans from Congress, the head of the RNC are focusing on the lunacy.

Maybee:”Does that describe everyone who opposes the “reform”, Ryan?”
Not all of them. There is also the ever humorous Investor Business Daily:
“People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.” (British Stephen Hawking replied personally, thanking the NHS for the 65+ years of high quality care they have offered him)
Or perhaps Palin’s “Death panels”?
The Right is “debating” healthcare as much on lies as on the facts. The left is not – or can you document any similarly absurd lies from the Left’s favored publications or ex-vice presidential candidates (and there are some real winner dem ex-vp’s out there)?

Ryan C:”"Dems want to pretend that all Republicans and all conservatives want to do is rant about ‘death panels,’ when actually there are good ideas out there that are not being taken seriously because they don’t come from someone with a D after his or her name.”
Who is discussing these ideas?”
I think a bigger question is where were these ideas when Republicans controlled the House, Republicans controlled the Senate, and Republicans controlled the Whitehouse?

“It’s true.
The CEO of Whole Foods wrote a very thoughtful piece in the WSJ about options he believes will work. And what happens? A left-driven call to boycott his stores.”
Oh come on! The right-wing does this kind of stuff all the time. Remember the publications, organizations and entertainers that were ostracized for criticizing the war in Iraq? Next time set an example.

***frightening***

“The CEO of Whole Foods wrote a very thoughtful piece in the WSJ about options he believes will work. And what happens? A left-driven call to boycott his stores.”
He belched forth Republican talking points that look like they came from a chain email.
If Rush started touting the wonders of communism I am sure he would lose viewers.

why are you accusing people who disagree with him “uninformed”? ”
People on Medicare telling the government to stay out of their healthcare?
Posted by: Ryan C |
Shockingly you are the one who is uninformed.
You see, Medicare is a government program. The only entity that can change it is the gov’t. So if you don’t want it changed then you tell the gov’t to keep their hands off it.

Back to the topic at hand … the uber-liberals in the House and Senate feel betrayed by Obama and want to push for a “stand and be counted” vote on a bill that includes a public option. Call for the vote, Nancy! Call for a vote, Harry! The time for debate is over. Let’s make history!

What do you people really expect? Let’s see the Republicans have been on the run since the first week when Obama in one of his first “bi partisan” meetings he said no to everything suggested by Republicans when asked why he said because “I won”. OK he did,but the Republicans still represent citizens too.Ideas are ejected on a daily basis.That’s OK too maybe they were lousy,but the general public has had bills stuffed down their throats without anyone even reading them.It doesn’t matter if your party has a capital D or R ..I think that’s mob rule when Reid just nods his head yes and the Speaker with the strange eyes and smile makes us all feel like there is a psych exam needed here.
what are there 4 drafts running around 5 ?
Who is running the show Obama or Emanuel?
Where and what is real plan folks?
People want this supported or that supported ..they don’t have jobs,their is retirement gone,and they might lose whatever medical aid they have, and our kids and their kids and their kids are going to have to pay for all of this …IF someone continues to buy all of our debt.
Me I am a Independent.I just want to work and have an opportunity to live a peaceful All American life hoping that I won’t have e learn Chinese in 5 Years.
What we need is to stop bashing each other and use some good old common sense.It’s like the Clunkers how many of them do you really think will be in repossession in the next 6 months?Bottom line for me is if we can’t pay for it RIGHT NOW we probably don’t need it and if we need it (and we do need health reform) then let’s go about it sensibly. Let’s be American Citizens not part of the mob.

Anvil:”Let’s see the Republicans have been on the run since the first week when Obama in one of his first “bi partisan” meetings he said no to everything suggested by Republicans when asked why he said because “I won”.”
That’s a lie, so I didn’t bother reading the rest of the post. I suppose you’re one of those people who insist that Republicans were shut out of the stimulus despite the public record of Republican amendments submitted, approved, and part of the final law (including a single one that accounts for a $70 billion tax cut to the upper middle class).

sybill:”And, stop blowing smoke about Republicans stalling passage of ANY bill O wants. YOU have control; if YOU can’t get legislation passed, YOUr legislators are to blame. ”
What nonsense. If 200 Republicans say, “Do nothing!” and 20 Democrats also say “Do nothing!” it’s all the Democrats fault? I didn’t hear such “We’re powerless, you do everything” shirking when the Democrats were in the minority.

MayBee:”jhw539 – You want me to pull up Obama’s whoppers about doctors making $30,000 for cutting off diabetics’ limbs? I mean, if we’re talking about poorly informed or overly frightened arguments.”
Sure. Obama actually said:
“Right now if we paid a family — if a family care physician works with his or her patient to help them lose weight, modify diet, monitors whether they’re taking their medications in a timely fashion, they might get reimbursed a pittance. But if that same diabetic ends up getting their foot amputated, that’s $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 — immediately the surgeon is reimbursed. ”
In reality, it is the hospital that is reimbursed on the order of $30k, but the point about misplaced incentives is a valid one.
“With your little snippets, are you implying that everyone- or most everyone- who disagrees with Obama’s health reform is ill-informed?”
With my factual and documented citations of major opinion leaders opposing health care I am proposing that the anti-health care side is resorting to frequent lies and exaggerations. And your citation of Obama’s point about diabetic amputations does not refute this. In this debate, one side is flat out lying while the other is debating (spinning sure, but spinning real facts).
“Even though we don’t even know what form that reform is going to take?
Are you going to assert that everyone supporting reform is well informed?”
Better informed than the opposition, as I cited.

Keep up with you info jhw539..Do you know how many meeting the others were just shut out of ….?
And excuse me I understand you tax cuts,but don’t call me a liar ..your attitude is part of the problem.

anyone here want to tell me how bush and cheney would have handled gun toting protesters outside any one of their “town halls”?….anyone?

Anvil:”.Do you know how many meeting the others were just shut out of ….?”
They have been in every committee that has formed every health care bill. Do you understand how Congress works regarding majority versus minority party roles?
“And excuse me I understand you tax cuts,but don’t call me a liar ..your attitude is part of the problem.”
The Rights use of lies and fictitious ‘facts’ in place of valid points and evidence appears to be the main part of the problem. This isn’t a playground argument over who gets to use the slide, millions of peoples lives depend on this. A bad or arrogant ‘attitude’ didn’t seem to stop Bill Clinton from working with Newt and the Republicans to reform Welfare in the 90′s, but I guess Democrats care more about doing their jobs than ‘getting respect.’

Good for you jhw539 with your attitude you definitely need to be seriously involved…IN HELPING TO CHANGE THINGS!

“Your wrong, what a bizarre conclusion!
Who are you equating with child molesters?”
Don’t get all worked up keys. In a trial the credibility of the source has everything to do with whether or not their testimony will be believed. It’s the name of the game–there is nothing intellectually dishonest about challenging witnesses. I hate having to explain the joke.

Tranjan,
Obama has about 46 lawyers now (I am mistaken though my willful ignorance I am sure)Also I sure there will be more Czars forthcoming….Answerable to no one except the holy one..

Foghorn Leghorn | Aug 18, 2009 12:13:07 AM
You may be implying that telling us french fries are good for us is far fetched but it happens all the time. -Like when the Republicans changed the guidelines for air quality and then told us the air was cleaner since the numbers were better or the auto industry claiming that SUVs were safer since in a crash they killed the passengers of the other vehicle or that bags are made of 100% recycled paper if only a small percentage of the bag is made of it and on and on.

You may be implying that telling us french fries are good for us is far fetched but it happens all the time.
Posted by: Skip |
Actually I meant to replace french fries with HR3200.

. -Like when the Skip >>> The congressmen told us the money in the freezer was his.
OR like Blago who was strong arming A kids cancer hospital for campaign funds by withholding their money. WOW Classy democrats. STOP GROUP THINK. Its not republican or democrat its WHAT has your congressmen or senator done. Thats what should be MEGA important! WE should throw out the ENTIRE congress this time EVERY SINGLE one of them NEED to go. Time for new faces. This Congress can not be trusted.

Regarding trumped up gotcha games:
You just reported that on June 23rd Obama ALSO indicated some flexibility on the public option. Obviously he backpedaled quickly so as to keep that bargaining chip to play later, but you’re putting out a real false impression by suggesting flexibility on a public option is anything new.
June 23rd, 2009:
Jake Tapper:”Is the public plan non-negotiable?”
President Obama: “We have not drawn lines in the sand, other than that reform has to control costs and that it has to provide relief to people who don’t have health insurance or are under-insured… Right now, I will say that our position is that a public plan makes sense.”
Posted by: jhw539 | Aug 17, 2009 9:00:38 PM
***
I agree. While I was confused by the Pharma deal and said so, Obama has been consistent on this. Google Karen Tumulty’s piece in The Times “Health Care Reform: Obama Finesses the Public Plan.” You can also google her interview with the Prez. In both, he explains what he thinks of as a public option, and it’s pretty flexible. He said, “It shouldn’t be something that’s simply a taxpayer-subsidized system that wasn’t accountable, but rather had to be self-sustaining through premiums and that had to compete with private insurers.”
Tumulty writes: “When I asked whether this sort of arrangement, modeled on private business organizations like rural cooperatives, might be an acceptable alternative to the public option that has become an ideological hot button, he said, “I think in theory you can imagine a cooperative meeting that definition. Obviously, sort of the legal structure of it is less important than practically how can it operate.” ”
So, she’s more accurate than others when she says that Obama’s stand on the public option has NEVER fit squarely into the narratives on either side of the aisle. I’ve found it maddening and vague at times but consistently maddening and vague rather than sneaky or confusing.
But here’s the bottom line: Meaningful reform can be passed without it.The public option is a means to an end — reducing costs and expanding coverage. There are other means to reaching that end. I’d like a public option, but I’d accept co-ops or an alternative that accomplished the same thing.

A couple of things (which I actually posted on the wrong thread)–
First, for a good take on the Top Ten Misconceptions about Health Care Reform, google the Managed Care Matters blog. I’ve resisted a couple of his points on free market and single payer, as he is the principal of Health Strategy Associates, a national consulting firm specializing in managed care for workers’ compensation and group health and serving insurers, managed care companies, employers, health care providers, and venture capitalists as clients– BUT even with that bias, he makes a good case. On point, he covers the public option, grossly dubbed “death panels”, illegal immigrants and other things brought up in the Tapperlandia comment sections. Worth a look.
Regarding the John Markey’s health care plan, I like Ezra Klein’s take (and btw, I’m not boycotting and I like that he attempted to come up with something fresh; he didn’t quite come up with a good solution, but I like that he put something out there). Here’s Ezra’s take in an excerpt from his blog:
“Food is more like health care than it is like cable television. We worry if people don’t have enough food to eat. We worry quite a lot, in fact. So we have a variety of programs meant to ensure that people have sufficient food. If you don’t have much money, you rely on these programs. As of September 2008, about 11 percent of the population was on food stamps. It’s probably somewhat higher now. Millions more rely on the Women, Infants, and Children nutrition program, and reduced-price school lunches.
The insight that people need food has not led us to simply deregulate the agricultural sector (though that might be a good idea for other reasons) or change the tax treatment of food purchases or make it easier for rich people to donate to food banks, which is what Mackey recommends for health care. It’s led us to solve, or try and solve, the problem directly by giving people money to buy food. And that works. These programs, as every Whole Foods shopper knows, haven’t grown to encompass the whole population or set prices in grocery stores. If you have more money, you shop for food on your own. And if you have a lot of money, you shop at Mackey’s stores. That’s pretty much the model we’re looking at in this iteration of health-care reform. We’re also laying down some rules so grocery stores — excuse me, health insurers — can’t simply refuse to sell you their product, or take it away after it’s already been purchased..
Mackey, playing to type, has offered a Whole Foods solution for health care: It makes the system even better for the rich and the young and the educated — the sort of people who shop at Whole Foods, in other words — and doesn’t do a lot for those who really need help. But the existence of a vibrant institution like Whole Foods within a broader system that considers it unacceptable — at least in theory — for the poor to go hungry, and so subsidizes their purchase of food, does have lessons for heath-care reform.”

Alyson/Ezra – but, the gov’t could (would?) be setting the rules slanted in favor of the govt option, that everyone would have to play by, which when the “option that is designed to keep the competition honest” is also the regulator of the system… well, that doesn’t play too well within a “fair market” (fair being the operative word) system. That’s a fox in the hen house system of checks and balances. The comparative analogy does not apply regarding feeding the poor, or health covering the poor and un-insured. The govt gives food stamps, but does not own big agra farms or a govt chain of grocery stores. Your analogy actually proves the point that the tax credit system would be the way to handle this, much like the food stamp system.

Overhauling health-care system tops agenda at annual meeting of Canada’s doctors
SASKATOON — The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country’s health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.
Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country – who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting – recognize that changes must be made.
“We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize,” Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.
“We know that there must be change,” she said. “We’re all running flat out, we’re all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands.”
The pitch for change at the conference is to start with a presentation from Dr. Robert Ouellet, the current president of the CMA, who has said there’s a critical need to make Canada’s health-care system patient-centred. He will present details from his fact-finding trip to Europe in January, where he met with health groups in England, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands and France.
His thoughts on the issue are already clear. Ouellet has been saying since his return that “a health-care revolution has passed us by,” that it’s possible to make wait lists disappear while maintaining universal coverage and “that competition should be welcomed, not feared.”
In other words, Ouellet believes there could be a role for private health-care delivery within the public system.
He has also said the Canadian system could be restructured to focus on patients if hospitals and other health-care institutions received funding based on the patients they treat, instead of an annual, lump-sum budget. This “activity-based funding” would be an incentive to provide more efficient care, he has said.Doig, who has had a full-time family practice in Saskatoon for 30 years, acknowledges that when physicians have talked about changing the health-care system in the past, they’ve been accused of wanting an American-style structure. She insists that’s not the case.
“It’s not about choosing between an American system or a Canadian system,” said Doig. “The whole thing is about looking at what other people do.”
“That’s called looking at the evidence, looking at how care is delivered and how care is paid for all around us (and) then saying ‘Well, OK, that’s good information. How do we make all of that work in the Canadian context? What do the Canadian people want?’ ”
Doig says there are some “very good things” about Canada’s health-care system, but she points out that many people have stories about times when things didn’t go well for them or their family.
“(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now – if it keeps on going without change – is not sustainable,” said Doig.
“They have to look at the evidence that’s being presented and will be presented at (the meeting) and realize what Canada’s doctors are trying to tell you, that you can get better care than what you’re getting and we all have to participate in the discussion around how do we do that and of course how do we pay for it.”

Alyson channeling ezra: or change the tax treatment of food purchases or make it easier for rich people to donate to food banks,
============
That isn’t true. There are tax breaks (though Obama would like to curb them) for people who donate to food banks. Also, though we don’t currently have a Federal sales tax, States often (if not usually) don’t charge sales tax on food purchases. Food is treated differently.
Alyson/Ezra: has offered a Whole Foods solution for health care: It makes the system even better for the rich and the young and the educated
==========
Ezra has no basis for saying this.
As I understand it, most of these ideas are actually implemented for the employees of Whole Foods. Grocery workers.
If Ezra’s point is that the high cost of food at WH supplements these choices– well, what does he think taxes do? Some where along the line for Ezra’s preferred public option, someone will have to be rich to pay for what he wants to see happen.

And if he REALLY wants something to talk about, why doesn’t anyone ask him about the part in the healthcare reform package that states at least something very closely to the effect of “Senior citizens will be required to seek counsiling for the option of doctor assisted suicide every 5 years from the day they turn 60.” I’m sorry, but I love my grandfather too much to let some democrat with a big ego do that to ANYONE!

R.I.P Healthcare Reform Bill. We rather be robbed by those in the market place than those ” I want to help” inept and corrupt Congress.They can’t run the Postal Service much less something so big. 2010, Change is Coming and You can Believe On !!

Obama on death panels:
“It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance.”
—Obama interview with Dave Leonhart.

The stimulus package is a failure and will be a failure. The way out of a recession is jobs and growth. That monstrosity did nothing for either.
It’s funny that Democrats felt that the few jobs it creates weren’t needed until next year- election year.
Based on the Democrat charts, this country would have had a lower unemployment rate without that hunk of junk spending.

“Mackey, playing to type, has offered a Whole Foods solution for health care: It makes the system even better for the rich and the young and the educated — the sort of people who shop at Whole Foods, in other words — and doesn’t do a lot for those who really need help.”
Um, this critique of the Whole Foods’ plan confuses the economic status of Mackey’s customers with the economic status of his employees.

Here’s another way Obama can save money on health care
from the Daily Mail Online:
‘Woman gives birth on pavement ‘after being refused ambulance”
It’s a lot cheaper than using a hospital room!

Rep. Anthony Weiner must have never played chess.
Rep. Weiner – You are a Pawn.
Rep. weiner – Pawns are Expendable!
Rep. Weiner – Welcome to the Game!

More on the critique of the Whole Foods plan:
“To qualify for a health savings account, you must be under age 65 and carry a high-deductible health insurance plan.”
“And a $2500 deductible for a family seems pretty high, particularly if there are no mandates on what is covered–as if mammograms and that sort of thing aren’t covered, getting a mammogram doesn’t go toward your deductible. ‘
Aside from the fact that the under 65 rule is made by the government, and probably has to do with the fact that 65 is the age of eligibility for Medicare, this “critique” displays a sad ignorance of how HSAs function. Aside also from the fact that many families spend in excess of $2500 per year on cell phone plans, DSL, and cable, the whole purpose of an HSA is to provide the money to cover the deductibles, the copays, and other out of pocket costs. And Whole Foods puts the money in the employees’ HSAs, they don’t even have to put their own in as I do in mine.

A Different Meaning of the Word “Choice” wrote: “The second and more likely scenario is that employers will realize that paying the fine/tax for not providing health-care coverage for their employees is cheaper than paying for the coverage in the new system.”
To say “cheaper” doesn’t do it justice. Read HR 3200, Sec. 313–Employer Contributions in Lieu of Coverage.
If passed as currently written, an employer who has an annual payroll of less than $250,000 will not have to pay ANYTHING to switch his or her employees to the public option.
An employer that has an annual payroll of $1,000,000 will only have to pay an annual “fee” of $80,000–EIGHTY THOUSAND DOLLARS–to switch his or her employees to the public option.
According to information on the National Coalition on Health Care website, the annual premium for an employee health plan covering a family of four averaged nearly $12,700. The annual premium for single coverage averaged over $4,700. NOTE: And those figures will rise drastically when private health insurance companies have to figure in having to insure those with existing conditions; and they can no longer have caps for annual or lifetime coverage.

From Instapundit:
TENS OF THOUSANDS quit AARP over health care “reform.”
“CBS News has learned that up to 60,000 people have cancelled their AARP memberships since July 1, angered over the group’s position on health care.
“Elaine Guardiani has been with AARP for 14 years, and said, ‘I’m extremely disappointed in AARP.’
“Retired nurse Dale Anderson has 12 years with AARP and said, ‘I don’t wanna be connected with AARP.’
“Many are switching to the American Seniors Association, a group that calls itself the conservative alternative as CBS News Investigative Correspondent Sharyl Attkisson reports.”
It’s probably a lot bigger than the Whole Foods boycott, but it’ll probably get a lot less press.

“And a $2500 deductible for a family seems pretty high, particularly if there are no mandates on what is covered–as if mammograms and that sort of thing aren’t covered, getting a mammogram doesn’t go toward your deductible. ‘
Aside from the fact that the under 65 rule is made by the government, and probably has to do with the fact that 65 is the age of eligibility for Medicare, this “critique” displays a sad ignorance of how HSAs function. Aside also from the fact that many families spend in excess of $2500 per year on cell phone plans, DSL, and cable, the whole purpose of an HSA is to provide the money to cover the deductibles, the copays, and other out of pocket costs. And Whole Foods puts the money in the employees’ HSAs, they don’t even have to put their own in as I do in mine.
Posted by: Bridget | Aug 18, 2009 10:19:17 AM
***
Actually, it’s not so “ignorant” for people living in the real actual world buying coverage for ourselves and others with medical conditions, as we had a high deductible for a few years, and saved money by lowering our deductible, getting broader coverage for prevention type stuff and prescriptions and paying the slightly higher premium. Whole Foods does pay into the employees’ accounts but who does that for the self-employed or the person laid off and so on? As for the HSA, I get a better bang for my buck investing it elsewhere and accumulating the cash

Can you say buyer’s remorse? This was so predictable, and yet countless Americans who should have known better allowed their judgment to be clouded by their anger at Bush and the liberal media swoon over Obama.
If there is one good thing to come out of this fiasco, perhaps it will be the development of distrust and disdain for liberal media including the NY Times, Newsweek, CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, PBS, and MSNBC.
Hopeless dupes who duped others by failing to report fairly and even handedly on the new Wunderkind.
The man’s past and close associates virtually cried out for serious investigative reporting. Nada.
To paraphrase the old saw; elect in anger, repent at leisure.

“CBS News has learned that up to 60,000 people have cancelled their AARP memberships since July 1, angered over the group’s position on health care.
Posted by: Blue Skies | Aug 18, 2009 10:36:00 AM
________
Since these 60,000 seniors are so upset about AARP’s position on healthcare reform, which is a proposal to ensure that more Americans receive the quality of healthcare they all enjoy, why don’t they just agree to give up their Medicare and let 60,000 of the uninsured folks out their receive their Medicare benefits. Wouldn’t that be a more effective way to protest this “government takeover?”
Really sad, letting themselves be used as pawns to ensure continued huge profits for the insurance industry.

Actually, it’s not so “ignorant” for people living in the real actual world buying coverage for ourselves and others with medical conditions, as we had a high deductible for a few years, and saved money by lowering our deductible, getting broader coverage for prevention type stuff and prescriptions and paying the slightly higher premium.
I, too, live in the real world and have purchased insurance for my family and helped friends and other family members purchase for themselves. And when you calculate the difference between high and low deductible plans and factor in the difference in premiums, there’s very little difference between the two. As I’ve said before, health insurance math is not difficult. I don’t think I get as much of a break as I should on my premiums for choosing a high deductible plan, but it’s really not that big of a deal and I do come out ahead most years.
Whole Foods does pay into the employees’ accounts but who does that for the self-employed or the person laid off and so on?
The self employed pay into their own HSA with the money they save on premiums by going with a high deductible plan. The premium difference between a $250 deductible plan and a $2500 deductible plan is roughly…..$2500 per year. Not coincidentally, I’m sure.
As for the HSA, I get a better bang for my buck investing it elsewhere and accumulating the cash.
As long as it’s your money and not mine taken from me through taxes, more power to you.

Hey blue dogs and democratic liberals. Stop trying to kill the only chance we have to get health care. You wanted to be in power and you are so do something positive and get behind your president because you are there because of him. He talked change and the people wanted change and people voted for him and you to make it happen. If this bill fails, you will not be re-elected or ever see the majority again. Think democrats, if he fails, so do you. Get together and get a bill passed because it is necessary not because of your egos.

Glenn, your reference to recent national polls is pretty bogus buddy, NBC/Wallstreet Journal shows 47% against and 43% for, that’s todays poll. Rassmussen has 54% against, Gallup 49% against. You must have been reading Daily Kos poll for idiots.

Posted by: Rob | Aug 18, 2009 1:01:56 PM
Rob: Bullpucky that the insurance industry is supporting the public option. And, if you believe they are, then you have already been suckered!

Drjohn, it’s becoming a lot more clear as to the purpose of President Obama’s need for a 1.2 million strong national civilian force. Apparently some will be giving end-of-life counseling and others will be “invading” homes to instruct new parents on parenting skills and “promoting healthy living.”

Posted by: Bridget | Aug 18, 2009 11:18:41 AM
***
Bridget, I didn’t mean to insinuate that you don’t live in the real world (sorry) but for small business owners it’s really not as good a deal as it may appear– especially when you already have a small work force and not everyone is healthy and young-ish. Once you’re recruiting new employees, the benefit plan will kinda weed out those for whom it’s not a good deal but to move to something like that when you have employees who have worked for you for years with pre-existing conditions, it’s tough. You rely on those long-term, good, loyal employees, and they balk at the notion of a $2500 deductible. Perhaps, giving them a choice is a possibility, but the playing field isn’t even for small business owners. It’s tipped toward big pools. And you do have to go through the coverage pretty closely because the cheaper ones leave out things that will go toward the deductible that given your employee pool may be important. Anyway– I don’t mean to go on, but it’s frustrating to me:)
Also, this morning I was in a hurry so I forgot to mention that the reason I threw this in my post, was the latter part of the post:
“”To qualify for a health savings account, you must be under age 65 and carry a high-deductible health insurance plan.This high-deductible health insurance plan must be your only health insurance coverage, and you can’t be covered by other health insurance.”
To get the benefits of HSAs you can’t buy a supplemental plan, so you do have to be careful that you’ve read the coverage closely– and I do think that requires a more educated or informed person.
I think it’s a good idea for younger, healthier people, actually– but I see holes. And Ezra cracked me up, but, fairplay, I’m not boycotting Whole Foods and I’m glad Mackey put his plan out there. I guess I don’t think it’s comprehensive enough– and I have some issues with repealing some state laws and coverage mandates, not all but some.

And I don’t think the Republicans want to play ball– while amendments have been offered, nobody seems to be saying we’ll sign off on this if you give us that. (By “nobody” I don’t mean us out here chatting about it, I mean in the House and Senate. Politicians drive me bonkers!!!) It’s more a tug of war than an honest discussion and negotiation.
================
I disagree with you that Republicans don’t want to negotiate or make progress, but setting that aside….
Let me once more remind you that Democrats do not need even one Republican vote to pass something. The Republicans are not holding this up because the Republicans can NOT hold this up.
If you want honesty, you will have to stop blaming Republicans.

If you want honesty, you will have to stop blaming Republicans.
Posted by: MayBee | Aug 18, 2009 3:47:12 PM
***
Honestly, I’d love to. Can you give me some examples in the Senate and House so I can get myself out of this mindset? I do adore Olympia Snowe and know she’s one of them.
Btw, I don’t think the fact that Blue Dogs are holding up the bill right now has anything to do with my post or whether or not any Republicans outside the senators from Maine and maybe a handful of others are willing to work with the Democrats in a true bipartisan manner in good faith on health care. That’s a red herring, no? It shows Democrats ARE negotiating more or less and considering a wider range of views. Don’t really get the point on that one, but I’m willing to hear it out.

Democrats, if they could negotiate *with each other* could pass this thing.
Posted by: MayBee | Aug 18, 2009 4:12:43 PM
***
This is what you’re missing. I’m not talking about “passing the thing.” I’m talking about passing something bipartisan and whether it’s worth the effort or not– which is a different animal than what you seem to be talking about. You seem to be just acting from the gut and defending Republicans, which is fine, but it’s sort of missing the point.

Posted by: Alyson | Aug 18, 2009 4:20:43 PM
And part two of that would be, if the Republicans don’t sincerely want to play ball, then, yeah, let’s get our party together and shove this thing through cuz we don’t really need the Repubs. It looks to me like the latter is what we should do because I don’t see much fair play on the other side, in Congress, not necessarily among the public although there are certainly pockets where I think that’s the case– and then you’d be right we have to negotiate between ourselves.

There is a bit of an intractable problem. Some Dems (especially House Dems) have said they won’t vote for anything but a strong public option. They *want* to move eventually to single payer.
Some Dems, and most Republicans, won’t vote for anything *with* a strong public option because they do not want to move eventually to single payer.
***
Okay, I agree with that:) Yes.

There are some issues that are non-negot
iable for each side and it’s pointless to blame one side or the other. It’s a huge difference in principles.
Posted by: MayBee | Aug 18, 2009 4:27:52 PM
***
So here we are:) I agree with that too.

Alyson,
I’m very well aware that small businesses have big problems getting coverage for their employees, particularly if they have one or two seriously sick people. And I don’t know much about the proposed co-ops, and so am not yet convinced that they are the answer. I do, however, believe that there are ways to convert us into a national pool of health insurance consumers without creating a government owned and operated plan.
The insurance companies have already said they’d stop denial of coverage for preexisting conditions in return for some sort of a universal mandate. The problem with a universal mandate being that a lot of the uninsured are healthy young adults and are uninsured, not because they can’t pay for insurance, but because they don’t want to. (Or they don’t realize how cheap it is because so few people in our country have a clue how to purchase their own heath insurance. But I digress) These voluntarily uninsured folks will be particularly displeased at being forced into the system if they are also forced to pay higher premiums in order to subsidize the geezers. And I can’t say that I blame them, after all, they’re already doing that through Medicare and Social Security.
But anyway, my preference would be for the government to put it’s stamp of approval on a basic health care plan to be offered by the insurance companies. Create a sign up period of say a year or two during which nobody can be denied coverage for preexisting conditions. Anybody who doesn’t sign up or doesn’t maintain a level of basic coverage after that is subject to denial or limitation of coverage for preexisting conditions.
BTW, I believe that those restrictions on the HSAs are there because of federal law, but even if I’m wrong, that’s an easy fix.

Medicare for all, a win-win for all of us.
=========
Go for it, Lydia. I admire Weiner for saying what he wants. It’s so much easier than pols who hem and haw.
Personally, I’m not seeing how Medicare’s horrific financial shape can be fixed by expanding it. But if Weiner can get the votes, then that will be the law of the land.

James Danley- let’s don’t forget Obama has floated the idea of raising capital gains tax rates AND eliminating social security caps for higher income earners. Those would be down the road, of course, to fix Social Security. But one wonders how many times we can go to that well.

Medicare for all? How awful that sounds.
The primary reason this monstrosity can’t be passed is because in truth the American people don’t want it and if the Democrats do pass it, that will be against what the American people want. If most people were behind the Dems ideas then it would go through. And no one is lying about what is in the bill. That is a lie itself. Those who have actually read it are telling the truth about what is in it. In most cases they are just reading directly from the bill and anyone can see that it is terrible. It seems to me that those who support it just blindly trust the Dems and the White House and parrot whatever they say. That’s the sad reality. Sorry to break it all of you who think a government run or single-payer option is the best for all of us. Most Americans don’t think so. It’s kriptonite. WE DO NOT WANT THAT. You are in a minority.

Tex, I’m guessing you don’t know many seniors of the poor or middle-class. They rely on Medicare and would fight anyone wanting to take it away. I can’t say the private insurance companies would have the same loyalty when threatened.
The free-market has failed us miserably on health insurance, on affordability, coverage for all and transferability from one job to the next. And really, isn’t the free-market supposed to be about commodities? How is health insurance a commodity that should be profited on?
Medicare for all is a workable solution to our very big problem of providing affordable health insurance to all. Not free, but affordable. As I’ve said before, you can’t have ‘life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’ when you can’t afford health care.

MayBee, you’re right!
Now as to how many times we can go to that well, I fear not too many. With the demonization of Corporate America and the public’s outrage at individuals receiving multi-million dollar bonuses, it won’t be too long before corporations and some of the wealthiest Americans decide to just pack everything up and move overseas. That will definitely leave the middle class holding the “bag.”

THE DEMOCRATS KNOW THAT IT IS A BAD PLAN. MANY AMERICANS DON’T WANT GOVERNMENT IN THEIR HEALTH CARE DECISIONS. GOVERNMENT CAN’T HANDLE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, SSI, MEDICARE MEDICAID OR CASH FOR CLUNKERS. HOW CAN THEY DO HEALTHCARE. THE PROOF IS IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, SSI, MEDICARE, MEDICAID AND THE NEWEST CASH FOR CLUNKERS. ONLY 2% OF THE DEALERSHIPS HAVE BEEN PAID BY THIS PROGRAM. OBAMA SUCKS

Make no bones about it, the insurance premiums that I pay for my family are astronomical, and my coverage is still not very good. As much as I dislike it, I am more scared of government adding any new social programs, much less health care. Look at Social Security and Medicare that are on the brink of insolvency. If Congress underfunded, in four days, a cash for clunkers program that was supposed to last for four months, we know that number crunching is above their pay grade.
I believe that if they vote to force feed health care reform to us taxpayers, they will be out of office quicker than we can say you “acted stupidly”! Let’s not make health care another “teachable moment”!

Fix what does not work,then talk about health reform. My opinion even though I have not read the bill is that it speaks of volumes when the politicans exempt themselves from what they are proposing.

Big Mo, I don’t understand your stance. The government runs Medicare very efficiently with only a 4% overhead compared to the 30% private insurance takes from us all. Think about it. 30 cents out of every dollar you pay in premiums doesn’t actually buy health care for anyone.
I’ve said it before but I really like Rep. Weiner’s plan that would gradually extend Medicare into Medicare for all who want it. In a realistic fashion, the age qualification would be adjusted down, say first to 55, then 45, etc. In this manner the additional people can be added in manageable groups. The Medicare infrastructure, relationship to doctors, hospitals, etc. is already there.
I would gladly give our high insurance premium for this insurance knowing no one is kicked out for pre-existing conditions, no maximum is reached as with private plans and no one is looking to make a profit by denying treatments as in private insurance.

Lydia wrote: “The government runs Medicare very efficiently…”
My father needed a tetanus shot last year and Medicare refused to cover it. My father had to pay for the shot out of his own pocket. Yeah! Run so very efficiently!!

“Obama when questioned says Illegal Immigrants are not covered witht the Healthcare reform. If they take time to read the bill they will find out that Healthcare professionals are not allowed to ask a patients citizenship status. Therefore all will be treated with no questions asked.”
What section of HR 3200 says that?

In my opinion,it should be fair to all who needs the healthcare insurance.