Zeke Emanuel on Sarah Palin’s Accusation of ‘Death Panels’: ‘It’s An Absolute Outrage’

Oh poor baby Zeke, it’s an outrage to mischaracterize him.
UHH, you’re in the big leagues now, Zeke. Thanks to your boss as well as Ms Pelosi and Mr. Reid, the opposition is out for blood and your questionable but thoughtful commentary on end of life is judged by the same brush as the OTHER SCIENCE czar that your boss appointed who goes for a wide array of controversial population control / economic measures!!
Gosh ask your brothers the high powered agent and the high powered politico – if you can’t stand the heat……..

Senate Finance committee is pulling the end of life provisions from its version of the bill, as we speak

“He’s an academic more than a public figure.”
Then that makes it OK I guess. If you can’t stand the heat…Pathetic. He should go back to the minor leagues. like someone said, freaking Palin gave this guy the vapors?

So he admits it:
“About 15 years ago he did think rationing was necessary because of cost issues but he has come to change his mind.”
But basically says its outrageous that anyone would still think he believes it?
Its not outrageous if they are your own words sir, and until you denounce it what we said was true.

More great P.R. work on behalf of Obama!

–He wasn’t in the kitchen.
He’s a policy wonk.–
Nonsense. So what if he is some policy wonk or whatever? He’s an advisor to the WH. That’s the kitchen.

I’ve read section 1233 — it can be anything these guys want it to be, including a death panel. It gives them free reign.

Thank you for providing complete information, without selective quotes, as has been the habit of too many so-called journalists.
From the looks of their, quite a few of your commenters didn’t bother to read most of it. All they needed was the man’s name and Sean Hannity’s talking points just came pouring out.
To those who did read the entire post, thank you. Civil discourse is a very bood thing!

I don’t see anything wrong with the ‘end of life counseling’ provision. It’s voluntary. This part is being blown out of proportion. Everyone should be aware of the concept of a ‘living will’.

Not Chicken Little:
Was he advocating that or describing it in order to point out his flaws? In academic writing it is often necessary to thoroughly understand and be able to articulate a point of view in order to argue with it. That’s why pulling selective quotes from academic articles makes no sense.

debg
Great. So now if a patient wants to talk to his or her physician about what they would want done if they were dying (pain meds or no pain meds? Resuscitate or DNR?), they have to pay for the doctor’s visit, rather than having their insurance pay for it. Great.
Another point for ignorance and fear.

Read his opinions, and you know what a creepy person Rahm’s brother is. He may not have called it a “Death Panel” but he would decide who gets care based on age, health, and who would contribute most to society – a death panel by any other name is still a death panel.

Of course Zeke had to come out and say all these things… the White House is in full-scale damage control mode. They will say and do anything to sell a bad product.
The problem is… a good number of people have figured out that the Snake Oil being sold has nothing to do with curing any of their ailments (current or future).

Even after reading what Dr. Emanuel said during the interviews, and reading what his academics said, so still want to believe what they want. Ignorance has no excuse in this day and age. But ignorance is also the basis for Hate.

Biased comments from Jake Tapper are extremely disappointing. Emanuel made these statements, advises the White House and is now trying to weasel out of them. I thought Tapper had promise as an honest and thorough journalist. This article has demonstrated that he is neither. Guess he is more concerned with his cred with the lunatic colleagues who continue to lie in support of the Dems and Obama. And after all, it is soooo easy to pile on Sarah. Problem is, Jake she told the truth. Even Obama spoke of Emanuel’s position in an earlier health care talk when he said we should just give grandma a pain pill. Stop lying, Jake. You will go down the same way as the Won will go down. Shame.

The only thoroughly discredited thing here is ABCnews.
Palin makes her points by referencing Section 1233 of HR 3200
Why can’t ABCnews make such references in its efforts to thoroughly discredit Palin?
Its a shame the next round of layoffs at ABCnews won’t effect the guys most responsible for the loss of viewers/readers/revenue – guys like Jake.

“Emanuel acknowledges that philosophical treatises can be difficult to consume and might lend themselves to this kind of misinterpretation.”
Please. Dr. Emanuel is not being “misinterpreted”. And the more he speaks out, the more people will actually read what he has written. And that will not be good news for Dr. Emanuel.

for sarah to make such a comment is an indication that she has no reading comprehension and lacks the gray matter.
does she have learning disability? Hmmm..
Smart enough to get Zeke all worked up.

Concerning the Hastings Center Report, Dr. Emanuel now states that “I wasn’t endorsing [the Civic Republican] view, I was analyzing that perspective and what it might mean in practical terms. The rest of the text around that quote made it made it pretty clear I was trying to analyze it and understand it, not endorse it.”
In the article itself he sure sounds as if he is endorsing such views: “This civic republican or deliberative democratic conception of the good provides both procedural and substantive insights for developing a just allocation of health care resources. Procedurally, it suggests the need for public forums to deliberate about which health services should be considered basic and should be socially guaranteed. Substantively,it suggests services that promote the continuation of the polity-those that ensure healthy future generations, ensure development of practical reasoning skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens in public deliberations-are to be socially guaranteed as basic.”
If he isn’t “endorsing” the Civic Republican approach in the praise he lavishes on it, then I have no idea what an “endorsement” is. Find where he once discusses the drawbacks or limitations of this approach. He doesn’t.

Blah, blah, blah…He’s a liberal. They always have to lie, to act outraged, to call names, in order to deceive everyone into falling for their schemes.
47%! That’s Obama’s newest LOW approval number, and only 12 points higher than where G W Bush was at after 8 years! Zero has only been there for 8 months. Massive buyers remorse, nationwide. Nobody’s falling for your outrage schtick, “Doctor” Emanuel.

Incentives paid to doctors to talk to their patients about death.
A new Obama program: Cash for Caskets

Well thanks for that clarification.
I guess the Finance Committee misunderstood as well since they announced today that the provision had been pulled.
That Sarah! what a hoot – right again!

“Thoroughly discredited”????
State the case? I have seen this allegation discredited. The government indicates it will set up a panel to review how doctors treat patients and whether they are performing unnecessary procedures. President Obama has justified these panels by accusing, REPEATEDLY, that doctors are performing unnecessary procedures. Until you show me what the standards are in the legislation (I await your response) they can be determined to be unnecessary because someone has only a limited period of time to live. Finally, all the democrats point to Canada and Europe as their model and where they want our health care to end up. They have death panels. He11 Oregon has death panels.
Maybe there is not a specific section that describes death panels but that does not prove that the control the government will exercise in approving care and approving payment for care will not accomplish the same purpose that a specifically created and entitled “death panel” would perform.

erhaps he is surprised that a majority of Americans find his elistist, statist ideas repulsive.
=========================================
Actually, I think the majority find the tactics employed and downright lies manufactured by those opposing heathcare repulsive. For those opposing (healthcare….think about that for a momeent…you oppose healthcate)….argue your points without resorting to outright lies…it is repulsive and you make yourself look foolish to average Americans…the silent majority as Nixon would say…

david…nice try. However, you’re wrong. Palin’s “Healthcare Decisions Day” was a public awareness campaign, not a government funded provision. Here’s the text:
WHEREAS, Healthcare Decisions Day is designed to raise public awareness of the need to plan ahead for healthcare decisions, related to end of life care and medical decision-making whenever patients are unable to speak for themselves and to encourage the specific use of advance directives to communicate these important healthcare decisions. [...]
WHEREAS, one of the principal goals of Healthcare Decisions Day is to encourage hospitals, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, continuing care retirement communities, and hospices to participate in a statewide effort to provide clear and consistent information to the public about advance directives, as well as to encourage medical professionals and lawyers to volunteer their time and efforts to improve public knowledge and increase the number of Alaska’s citizens with advance directives.
WHEREAS, the Foundation for End of Life Care in Juneau, Alaska, and other organizations throughout the United States have endorsed this event and are committed to educating the public about the importance of discussing healthcare choices and executing advance directives.

SMART ENOUGH TO MAKE ZEKE ALL WORKED UP?
Please! don’t waste your breathe promoting her empty head. You have to have some gene relation with her.

Maybe the death provisions on page 430 of the House bill for healthcare reform, where antibiotics, food and water can be ordered with held from a patient, has to do with the shovel ready projects that the Obama administration was referring to.

Jake: “Mainstream Media Attacks Palin” is a “dog bites man” kind of headline. Yawn, same ol’ same ol’. But when (if ever) the Mainstream Media headline is “Main Stream Media Tells the Truth About Death Panel”, that will be a “man bites dog” kind of story.
It’ll never happen.
Meanwhile, Americans should just deal with facts:
Start by actually reading for comprehension what Palin says in her facebook blogs (the original one and her second one today rebutting Obama’s NH Town Love Fest about “voluntariness” of counseling under ObamaCare. And also actually read HR 3200 — not just the “end-of-life” counseling provisions in the bill, but also the entire bill.
If you read the bill and Palin’s blogs, it is clearly understandable that the entire purpose — indeed, the sole purpose — of including that “voluntary counseling” in the bill is to increase the odds that the government will save more money if more people were told the “benefits” of choosing to die even if there is a chance to live.
Oh, and by the way, the “voluntary counseling” provision in the bill does mandate in detail exactly what the CONTENT of the “voluntary” counseling must be. “Shall” means mandatory, right? What with the reporting requirements that the “health provider” is mandated to provide to the government regarding how it all works out in each individual case, the mandatory content of the counseling can be tweaked as time goes by to increase the “odds” of a favorable result — i.e., saving money for the government.
Which brings up the issue of the “committee” that HR 3200 also sets up to decide who gets what treatment based on what is most efficient and “worthwhile” — i.e., saves the government the most money.
Gee, what do you think it will do to someone’s frame-of-mind to learn at their “voluntary” end-of-life counseling session that, by the way, the government has decided that that great pill or procedure that has a chance of a meaningful “extension” your life — or making your life more enjoyable (hip replacement? artificial limb?) is just too expensive to waste on you?
Remember, too, that your definitions of “meaningful” and “worthwhile” may be different than that committee’s definitions. Guess what? The committee’s definitions of those concepts will prevail over yours (and even your doctor’s) — because the committee’s definitions will be the LAW (at least if HR 3200 is enacted).
And you don’t get to vote on who sits on that committee that decides whether you would have a “meaningful” life worth extending, or a “worthwhile” life meriting full benefits of medical advances, and you don’t get to appeal the impact of that committee’s decisions and definitions of “worthwhile” and “meaningful” on your life — or death.
Of course, don’t believe me. Don’t believe Palin. And above all, don’t believe Obama. After all, he is the one who’s trying to sell this bill and its Death Panel approach to cutting costs.
Americans who want to know the facts should read HR 3200, and any other proposed health-related reform bills, that Congress might pass in the middle of some night. This Congress has shown that they are unworthy of trust, and the term for many of them, in both parties, should be rationed when the next election comes around.
Until then, please demand that Congress SHOW THE BILL and not STICK US WITH ANOTHER UNREAD BILL. Show the bill BEFORE it becomes law. While Americans still might be able to make a difference in whether it will be individual Americans or the government that decides when their individual life has become meaningless or the quality of that life is not worth spending “government” money to sustain.
Remember — Obama trusts private FedEx and UPS more than he trusts the government-run US Postal Service, and so he for sure won’t be entrusting health care for himself and his family to “health care” supposedly provided under HR 3200 — if it passes.
And everyone who opposes HR 3200 agrees 100% with the President in his distrust.

JD wrote: “47%! That’s Obama’s newest LOW approval number, and only 12 points higher than where G W Bush was at after 8 years! Zero has only been there for 8 months.”
So says Rasmussen. But according to Gallup, Obama’s approval rating as of today is 53%. And for the record, Clinton at 8 months had 44% percent,again per Gallup.

“Thoroughly discredited”? I guess that is why Senator Grassley and Senator Baucus held a press conference to announce that the death panel language was just excised from the Senate bill but remains in the House Bill. Dr. Emanuel has spent too much time with his brother and his brother’s mentor arguing “what the meaning of is, is.” Dr. Zeke’s own written words confirm it, and he can now claim all he wants to that he wasn’t saying that, but we can read. If it had been taken out of context, he would be quoting what was left out, something Mr. Tapper could have done, except he only reads approved press releases from the DMC. Maybe an apology to former Governor Palin is in store?

Jake, Why didn’t you ask him about his statement of, “Doctor’s take their hipocratic oath much too seriously?”

There’s no arguing with people who believe in death panels.
The HC reform bills in the house and senate do not mess with an individuals right to keep their private health insurance but it does provide a means of acquiring a public plan if you need it.
The bills require employer provided heath insurance – coverage or financial contribution, and an individual requirement so that every American pays into the system that every American gets health services from.
MA has a HC reform. My old premium was $499/mo now I pay $349/mo. It used to be that 4 out of 5 were covered and paid in, now 97% are covered and pay in.

There is no accountability for this administration whatsoever. I am not a fan of Palin, but you cannot ignore all of Obama’s prior comments; the wackos on his advisory committees and only report the most recent public statement.
Obama said on April 28, 2009 in the New York Times Magazine intereview that:
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that’s part of what I suspect you’ll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.

Neil..nice story but, too bad Mass healthcare is on the cusp of going broke. Tennessee’s plan has major problems, too. Hawaii just threw up their hands: failed after 16 years.
We need to slow down, get it right in one state with Fed help then we can replicate it.

I am amazed at the level of nut cases that can’t follow the facts. Frank from Panic Away and The Linden Method

Palin’s latest piece links to the Zeke Emmanuel Piece. I don’t believe she took anything out of context.
Emanuel’s piece does make sense, he states well look there are patients where the majority of health care dollars should go, and they are the young. Not an unreasonable position, and will be precisely the issue that will come about once the government is in charge with controlling costs. Look I think the Doctor Death Stuff is over the top, but the issue as Gov. Palin laid it out certainly isn’t. By having the Government become the sole provider of health care, they are ultimately in charge of cost control!
There is no such thing as a one-size fits all insurance program. The notion of insurance is to protect those who can’t afford expensive treatment, a billionaire does not need insurance, for a worker its essntial. But if I pay into the plan, I better damn well get coverage, and to be frank it shouldn’t make a difference if I have dimensia or live to be 90. The fact that over 2.5% of every dollar I earned since I recieved a paycheck goes to a plan that kicks in when I’m 65 (if I dye before I turn 65 (like my mom) I get nothing), is the premium I am paying for this service. To say that when I turn 70 my coverage is now going to be limited because my age denies me quality? What’s up with that is the government going to give me a refund for all the Medicare that I paid into?
Bottom line you pay the premium you get the coverage. Thats it! Putting the Government in charge of who gets and who doesn’t get is immoral!

“The Obama Disaster” continues to unfold. It’s about time.
I don’t think most people really know what kind of a disaster is coming: economic, social, governmental…

One more thing:
If you look at the Medicare Program, specifically the premiums paid (close to $1,000 per year for an average worker). If you consider the amount of coverage that a citizen gets versus the premium, the employee is getting ripped off. If there were a “mirror” program in the private sector, I can gaurnatee that the premium paid and the services received would be greater. The government by nature is inefficient, and thus not able to provide or manage healthcare.
Take a look at the UK, Canada, etc… all those single payer plans are great for routine stuff, but when it comes to non-routine stuff it is a nightmare. Obama brought up the US Postal Service versus Fed Ex and UPS, of the three one is operating at a huge loss the other two are profitable – care to guess why. Government cannot run anything, because its not equipped to do so. every American earning less than 102k has signed away over 10% of their pay towards retirement, yet if you look at the amounts returned on that scheme its a rip off. Let me be clear, there is nothing the government runs that is efficient and cost effective. Messing aournd with retirment security is one thing, messing around with my doctor is quite another!

“Obama brought up the US Postal Service versus Fed Ex and UPS, of the three one is operating at a huge loss the other two are profitable – care to guess why.”
Because FedEx and UPS charge alot more and don’t deliver everywhere and don’t pickup anywhere unless you pay them.
USPS delivers mail to your house no matter where it is, picks up mail for free and charges you a tiny percentage what it would cost to ship a letter via either FedEx or UPS.

Posted by: Ryan C | Aug 13, 2009 6:12:01 PM
TANSTAAFL

My spouse was diagnosed with cancer a year ago at age 81. Our medicare insurance and our Blue Cross insurance has paid everything with the exception of co-pays which are $30.00! I am sure that if this was the Obama Death Plan coverage would only be the $250 social security death benefit and that would not even cover the lid of the casket!!
And they don’t have to pay anymore social secuity checks every month! Everyone gets to get old…you liberals better wish you never get old..or your parents don’t need care and you have the Obama Plan…if you are between the ages of 15 and 40 you are safe…after that you are dog meat!

“And they don’t have to pay anymore social secuity checks every month! Everyone gets to get old…you liberals better wish you never get old..or your parents don’t need care and you have the Obama Plan”
Liberals enacted the Medicare plan keeping your spouse fighting cancer.
Liberals enacted Social Security and defended it when Republicans tried to privatize it.
Good thing too considering the Bush economic meltdown that happened.

It is amazing how many of you negative fools do not take the time to read the original sources. But I guess, your thought process would be burdened and unable to comprehend. I thank God you are not a doctor, pilot or president! get a life!

Does this woman feel the need to remind us daily how stupid she truly is????

Sarah Palin is making false statements. This has been fact checked, plus I have read bill. End of life counseling has been occurring for several years now. This ocunseling is a welcomed and much appreciated support quidance for all patients and family members. This counseling will now be declared mandatory insurance coverage. Many patient were having to pay out of their pockets for counseling sessions. This includes living wills, health care directives, etc. My husband and mine were done by our attorney in 1996. The reform bill does not say there will be any death panel at all.
How can I be certain these counseling sessions are what Obama claims they are?? Well, my husband died of cancer in 2000. We received additional end of life oounseling concerning the options available for my husband. We desperately needed the assistance of the different agecnies, hospice, etc. Sadly the counseling also included the point when treatment would no longer help him. Cancer had advanced too far. And he was in end stage. The oncology physician was sincere and so helpful.
Dr. Emmanuel is one of the foremost oncologist in US. I respect and admire this man who has devoted his life’s work to helping patient who have cancer. Oncologist must possess tremendous empathy for patient and a belief with our health care they may find a cure. This is not a man who should be criticized. He should be applauded. He celebrates with those who go into remission or are cured and free of cancer. He supports those whose treatment does not help, and patient must face his/her own mortality. Does he have to legally tell a patient when they are dying and no treatment will help. Yes, sadly he does. National protocols are followed and usually implemented. Each case is different, and differnces are taken into evaluation and consideration when recommending treatment choices. This decision will be patients, and will continue to be the patients.
People have gotten lots of misinformation. I repeat there is no death panel. Health Care Reform is to improve health care coverage. And it does. And it will be improved.
From an RN who worked many years, and who just retired one year ago. And I am a registered Republican. Health Care is very important to me now. I want the best care and coverage for me and others. I strongly suggest all people calm down. Reform will indeed be better.

Now it’s time for Todd to dump her. The health care bill is supposedly 1,000 page long. I honest to god don’t believe Palin is capable of reading something so long. Also, in bill of this nature there are bound to be big words that Palin couldn’t say mush less understand. She is one stupid Female doing the entire female population an injustice.

…and heavily subsidized by government money!

Anyone who wants to criticize an oncologist who has spent his life researching and treating cancer should assess exactly what they themselves are contributing to society.

SweetAlmondVerbena | Aug 13, 2009 4:33:36 PM posted ” a death panel by any other name is still a death panel”.
Have you actually read Dr. Ezekial Emanuel’s article or did you read snippets out of context? I read it all.
This article covers the ethics of allocating medical care when resources are SCARCE, such as transplant organs or during a pandemic. For example, the article compares the advantages and disadvantages of what we use TODAY, such as treating the sickest first – or using a lottery to allocate organ transplants – or maximizing the number of life years.
A discussion of medical ethics is required to answer questions such as, “if there is only one liver, should that transplant go to a 65 year old who was first in line, but no insurance – or someone who has more money – or a patient with the best health plan – or a 25 year-old who has a better prognosis?”
The article concludes by presenting a combination of five “morally relevant principles” in use today: youngest-first, prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value. Again, the article was written to show decision making processes for SCARCE resources. The article states it is NOT designed for heath care as a whole, or to create classes of humans whose lives and well being are not worth spending money on.
Now I have two questions for you: Today, do Insurance Companies use “morally relevant principles” to determine if all Down’s Syndrome kids receive medical care? Today, do Insurance Companies use “morally relevant principles” to determine if the aged or terminally ill can receive end of life care? The answer is NO – They make decisions based solely on keeping their stock price high by eliminating sick people and handicapped from coverage.
It is INSURANCE COMPANIES who make money as “Death Panels” and they are fighting with confusion and fear to keep it that way.

“Markfromatlanta, BC/BS is a not-for-profit.” – Sure they get a tax break, but so did Rev. Jim Jones. BC/BS are one of the worse offenders for denying folks coverage and dropping people when they develop a catastrophic illness. They are a conduit for a lot of profit making. Check out what their CEO makes.

“Far right’s Research scholor and Economist Sarah Palin’s final conclusion on her research “Death Panel”. If She is the intellectual force behind of these conservatives, … then far right fear mongers are in real trouble.”
She’s just the parrot.

Didn’t anyone read the things this guy wrote in his book? He absoluely does seem to think a person’s worth is related to how old they are, and how healthy they are. Put down the kool aid, and do some investigating.

How do you expect Palin to understand the philosophical arguments from a peer reviewed academic journal?

What is wrong with Republicans???

Unfortunately for the good doctor, it takes several paragraphs to accurately explain his positions and his quotes, and it takes to words “Death Panel” to twist them. So which do you think is going to sink into the consciousness of the American people? Palin, or whoever it is that pulls her strings, knows this and that’s why despite every media outlet repudiating her claims, she’s doubling down on them. We are quickly on our way to becoming an idiocracy.

From the American College of surgeons:
“Yesterday during a town hall meeting, President Obama got his facts completely wrong. He stated that a surgeon gets paid $50,000 for a leg amputation when, in fact, Medicare pays a surgeon between $740 and $1,140 for a leg amputation.”
That’s quite a large error.

Obama has been very clear in numerous interviews as to his intention to limit care given to seniors. He has even stated as to how he believes it should be done. Odly enough he suggests using apanel to advise on what care should be given in the end of life. The bills mandated end of life counseling (it was not described as optional in the bill.)
If there were any reporters asking the president questions or holding him accountable then there wouldn’t be any confusion. The fault lays with the gross incompetence and media malpactice coupled with the ever evolving position of the administration and their wacko advisers.
April 28, 2009 – New York Times Magazine
THE PRESIDENT: So that’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that’s also a huge driver of cost, right?
I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.
David Leonhardt: So how do you — how do we deal with it?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, ethicists. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that’s part of what I suspect you’ll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.

“Obama approval now down to 47%; 52% disapprove.”
Ahhh yes Republimussen…..FoxNews favorite pollster.

I am an avid reader of Huffington Post; however, I have to wonder why on earth you give so much coverage to Sarah Palin. She has absolutely nothing to offer, and she is a joke to politics. She is ignorant. She is misinformed. Half the time she doesn’t even make sense. She is a cutthroat opportunist, who will stop at nothing to make a photo op, even if it means dragging her poor little Trig or her pregnant daughter into the spotlight when it suits her purpose. She has no shame, no brains, nothing to offer except blind ambition. I for one am sick and tired of hearing about her pathetic grab for stardom. Adriana, give it a rest!

Posted by: A female Democrat | Aug 13, 2009 7:44:45 PM
You bring it upon yourselves.

“Read some of Zeke’s works.”
This is almost as funny as right wingers saying read the bill when they are working off excerpts on right wing blogs.

“Read some of Zeke’s works.”
This is almost as funny as right wingers saying read the bill when they are working off excerpts on right wing blogs.
Yeah, where’s John Conyers when ya need him?

Well said Eyes Open.

“Yeah, where’s John Conyers when ya need him?”
Or John Boehner for that matter.

This is how trillion dollar industries react when they feel threatened. They have many of our elected officials in their pocket, now they’re saturating the populace with whisper campaigns, scream campaigns, e-mail propaganda and anything else that will get uninformed, easily agitated people in a dither to create disruption. “Death Panel;” what a perfect propaganda phrase to scare the heck out of people who don’t bother to educate themselves.
This is all about keeping us from having something we need, and we need to act like we understand that.

Q: Should the federal government be getting involved with living wills and end-of-life questions …?”
A: It already is.
The government requires hospitals to ask adult patients if they have a living will, or “advance directive.” If the patient doesn’t have one, and wants one, the hospital has to provide assistance. The mandate on hospitals was instituted during a Republican administration, in 1992, under President GEORGE H.W. BUSH.
Do all you rt wingers know this?? I didn’t think so.
If ever there was a reason to go back to the Bush/Cheney SECRECY Policies, this is it! The rw radicals don’t have a clue what to do with REAL information about legislative proposals. They have shredded this hc reform proposal into something unrecognizable. In the minds of crazy or not-so-smart or simply Obama-hating people, TRANSPARENCY of government sucks.

“Or being in the health care version of the USPS.”
Excellent service for anyone at a fraction of the cost…I doubt we are so lucky.

Posted by: KIMBER | Aug 13, 2009 7:59:48 PM
The Obama administration already cut the deal with Big Pharma. In the pocket is right.

God-fearing housewife: 1
Combined forces of the President, House, filibuster-proof Senate, Big Labor, Big Pharma, Big Media, and George Soros’ AstroTurf empire: 0
ha ha ha! Can you say Madame President? I sure can.

Jake, I appreciate the information here and the work you do as a journalist but I really wish you would have asked him as a doctor what he thought about tort reform as being part of the solution to
“We spend a lot of money and resources — hundreds of billions of dollars — for unnecessary care, care that doesn’t help patients,”
I think his answer would have been illustrative.

All doctors have end of life conversations with seniors. Every meidcal procedure has an Informed Consent and every hospital admission has an Advance Directives form to be filled out upon admission. The end of life counseling has to do with the Painkillers in lieu of Pacemaker proposal that Obama so loves to give an example.
The amount of misinformation from this administration shocks your conscience.

“The end of life counseling has to do with the Painkillers in lieu of Pacemaker proposal that Obama so loves to give an example.”
As usual the right wing lie starts at one point then mutates a other right wingers add their own dishonest flourish.
It started off with Obama discussing a hip replacement for someone who was dying and whether pain medication woudl be better and how those are the issues we face today.
Right wingers have turned that into pain pill instead of hip replacement.
You have turned that into pain pill instead of a pacemaker.

Is it absurd? I mean, Chuck Grassley came out today and stated that the Senate had to remove their version of the “end-of-life” section because it was to ambiguous and left too many loop holes to be interpreted differently.

With the baby boomers about to become eligible for Medicare which will result in a hugh increase in the Medicare recipients and President Obama and the Democrats about to cut 500 billion from Medicare in order to help pay for their health care reform proposals who do you thinik will take the hit on services if President Obama gets his way? You guessed it the elderly. So when Sarah Palin talks about government “death panels” you better belive its true because President Obama’s health care bill has already built in a hugh cut in health care for the elderly in his health care reform proposals.

Sarah Palin is a complete idiot, incapable of understanding (or communicating) in context.
And her party is full of people who eat these hysterics up with a soup ladle.
The dems aren’t much better but at least they don’t freak out en masse when some tea party organizer pushes a few hot buttons.
I actually enjoy seeing these neocons melt down in public, so now we can see them for who and what they are.

ubu1991 | Aug 13, 2009 8:15:59 PM posted – “Every meidcal procedure has an Informed Consent and every hospital admission has an Advance Directives form to be filled out upon admission.”
Do you honestly believe when someone is admitted with a stroke or an end-of-life terminal illness that they can read and comprehend all the medical treatment forms? After admission to a hospital (unconscious after a stroke) here’s the end-of-life comprehension my relative retained from her discussion with a doctor: If you can’t swallow, you need a feeding tube.
It is sensible and comforting for everyone, while they are mentally able, to have this conversation with family and your doctor BEFORE such a time.
It’s this ridiculous “Death Panel” misinformation that shocks my conscience.

I dare say congratulations are in order for Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel. Excellent professional retort to Palin’s unconsciousable mockery. Clearly, two different individuals….
Great reporting jpt.

Ryan, you are probably more of a NYT person, so look at their article about the dropping of this in the senates bill.

I’ve been on a so-called Death Panel.
That’s right – they exist today. When a family member is incapacitated, and that person has NOT defined end-of-life wishes, then someone else must determine end-of-life procedures and who pays for it.
In my family, a 94-year old relative stubbornly refused to talk to the family about what happens in the time leading up to death, although over the years she told us how much she hated the idea of Nursing Homes.
Unfortunately, we can’t dictate how our bodies shut down. After she had a stroke and could no longer swallow, she agreed to a feeding tube down her throat, and she was sent to a Care Center.
Turns out her Medicare insurance only covered 2 weeks in a Care Center for “rehab” – in this case, re-teaching a patient how to swallow. She did not understand that the throat tube would be painful and limit talking. She began to develop bed sores and her condition deteriorated.
At that point the Care Center called us in for a meeting – the justification of “rehab” for Medicare coverage was running out. My family was given two choices: #1) insert a stomach feeding tube and pay (in advance) for a month of Nursing Care at roughly $190 per day – or #2) take her home. We lived in another state, so she was moved into full time nursing care while we investigated in-home Hospice options. She died a few days later.
But because she did NOT have a conversation with her trusted Doctor IN ADVANCE about end-of-life options, she was put on a feeding tube and landed in a Nursing Home – exactly what she wanted to avoid. Everyone deserves to have their wishes clearly defined, not made by hospital personnel, Nursing Homes, insurance companies, or even family members.
I simply do not understand why any freedom loving American would object to a program offering end-of-life counseling with their Doctor.

The bottom line is that the only way to realistically cut health care3 cutes is to cut services for the most costly portion of the health care dollar, the elderly. So what happens when the3 government controls the major portion of the health care dollar, and not the free market, you guessed it, the government will go after the elderly and pit everyone who demands health care services aganist the elderly, the middle class, illegal aliens, etc etc. . Meanwhile the elitists in government and the billionairs like
Soros and the corporate heads of state int the tank for Obama, will have their own private health care system that thg plebs under Obamacare will not have access to.

Obviously Sarah, you do not understand what a living will is about. It is the patient’s choices as to how he either does or does not want extenuating circumstances at the end. If he makes the decision, it is easier on the family. I have been there and it is helpful to have a doctor explain what will happen if you bring them home or put them in a hospice and then the patient decides. Fortunately, for me, my daughter decided and we brought her home per her wishes. Many cannot make these choices so the family is left with “what shall I do.” A doctor takes an oath not to kill a person so a death panel would go against an oath he took.
You keep bringing up your children. They don’t belong in politics…keep them out of it.

NOT having an advance directive or living will is the height of irresponsibility because it puts on your relatives issues that you yourself should determine. You might be 31 and be hit by a bus on the way home. It doesn’t need to be a geriatric concern. Everyone over 21 should be thinking of these issues and certainly people who have had bouts of illness, either their own or a in a loved one. Palin is a crack brained ex governor and her opinion is meaningless. Also, she is using her son to make a political statement and that is ugly.

Why do I keep seeing Sarah Palin’s photo all over Huffington Post pages?
She’ll never go away if web sites keep doing this. Please stop the free publicity.

It’s about time. Thank-you Dr Emanuel for that pull-no-punches response to Palin’s outright lies and slandering of your name. Best response I’ve heard so far. She needs to be put in her place.

Not that I think Jake Tapper actually reads any of these posts, but he and his friends in the MSM really need to start fact-checking the kind of hyperbolic claims being pushed by the likes of Palin (a failed quitter) and her ilk and release the results AT THE SAME TIME they release their statements about important issues. Why does it take 12-24 hours for the media to hold people accountable for the demonstrably false things they say? It’s the responsibility of the fourth estate to IMMEDIATELY analyze the truthfulness of a claim and report on the results concurrently with giving airtime to misleading and/or deceptive statements.
Get some balls, Tapper.

The Senate committee properly dropped the provision for the appropriately-named death panels because of the outcry from an informed citizenry–the mortal enemy of the American left.
We’re winning, and they’re in a state of panic. It’s all good.

Gee there Zekey, is it that we misinterpret your academic writings, or that we interpret them too well?

My daughter is a doctor. Not only does she support doctors getting reimbursed for end-of-life counseling, but wishes families were included too. Often, the terminal patient understands the situation better than the family. Families often want drastic intervention when the patient doesn’t. Family members don’t support the terminal patients decision, which makes a sad situation even worse. If doctors could counsel family members too, many of these differences could be sorted out with less drama and estrangement.

Jakeslogan, It is your post and all of the posts from the left that need to be “fact checked”. Bottom line is you have no facts to support your arguments other than a lot of name calling like “lunatics” “right wing nuts” etc etc. Which tells me that the left cannot reply in a forthright way to Sarah Palin’s arguments about the so called “death panels” in Obamacare. Answer this question. When the government is in charge of health care how will they go about reducing costs other than rationing? Answer: The only way to cut costs is for the government to make the decisions on where the health care dollar is spent. Since the biggest portion of the health car dollar now goes to the elderly, it is logical to assume that government will look first at cutting health care costs for the elderly where the biggest costs are to be found. . In fact, a 500 billion dollar cut in Medicare is already built into the bill, despite the fact there will be a big increase in Medicare roll with the baby boomers become eligible for Medicare. You do the math.
President Obama and the left need to stop the name calling and be up front with the people about the real life outcomes of their idea of health care reform where the only way they can realistically reduce costs in a government run system is to cut services for the elderly. The better idea would be to let the free market rule and get government out of health care. This could be done by tort reform, allowing insurance companies to offer plans across state lines and allowing private insurance to design their plan based on market demands, including ability to pay and what services the patient wants and/or needs. No government force, no higher taxes, tort reform and freedom of choice, that is the path to health care reform, not Obamacare where everyone will lose except the elitists in government and the powerful billionaires like Soros and the heads of GE.

I saw my relative have painful procedures done on him when there was no hope of recovery, all because the family did not get good counseling. The last year of his life he was in utter pain and often incapacitated. I would never wish that on anyone. He was not in the position to take control of his life so he spend months suffering needlessly. He did not even have proper pain management. People who can’t understand the importance of a living will and the importance of letting people know about them, have never faced tthis utterly horrible situation of needless suffering.

Obama’s same fateful interview with David Leonhardt of the Times:
THE PRESIDENT: So that’s where I think you just get into some very difficult moral issues. But that’s also a huge driver of cost, right?
I mean, the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives are accounting for potentially 80 percent of the total health care bill out here.
DAVID LEONHARDT: So how do you — how do we deal with it?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that there is going to have to be a conversation that is guided by doctors, scientists, “ethicists”. And then there is going to have to be a very difficult democratic conversation that takes place. It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels. And that’s part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It’s not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that’s part of what I suspect you’ll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now.

Sarah Palin quit blogging all day long and pickup an book and educate yourself.
You truly are an embarrassment to the Republican party

“I have had a lifetime
of paying into this and I fully expect to receive the medical care that I need when I need it.” – Then you must support reform becuase without it Medicare as well as the rest of our health system is doomed to crash.

Does Sarah Palin have a living will?

This is what the bill says, pages 284-288, SEC. 1151. REDUCING POTENTIALLY PREVENTABLE HOSPITAL READMISSIONS:
‘(ii) EXCLUSION OF CERTAIN READMISSIONS.—For purposes of clause (i), with respect to a hospital, excess readmissions shall not include readmissions for an applicable condition for which there are fewer than a minimum number (as determined by the Secretary) of discharges for such applicable condition for the applicable period and such hospital.
and, under “Definitions”:
‘‘(A) APPLICABLE CONDITION.—The term ‘applicable condition’ means, subject to subparagraph (B), a condition or procedure selected by the Secretary . . .
and:
‘‘(E) READMISSION.—The term ‘readmission’ means, in the case of an individual who is discharged from an applicable hospital, the admission of the individual to the same or another applicable hospital within a time period specified by the Secretary from the date of such discharge.
and:
‘‘(6) LIMITATIONS ON REVIEW.—There shall be no administrative or judicial review under section 1869, section 1878, or otherwise of— . . .
‘‘(C) the measures of readmissions . . .
EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGES:
1. This section amends the Social Security Act
2. The government has the power to determine what constitutes an “applicable [medical] condition.”
3. The government has the power to determine who is allowed readmission into a hospital.
4. This determination will be made by statistics: when enough people have been discharged for the same condition, an individual may be readmitted.
5. This is government rationing, pure, simple, and straight up.
6. There can be no judicial review of decisions made here. The Secretary is above the courts.
7. The plan also allows the government to prohibit hospitals from expanding without federal permission: page 317-318.

What constitutes “acceptable” coverage?
Here is what the bill says, pages 26-30, SEC. 122, ESSENTIAL BENEFITS PACKAGE DEFINED:
(a) IN GENERAL.—In this division, the term ‘‘essential benefits package’’ means health benefits coverage, consistent with standards adopted under section 124 to ensure the provision of quality health care and financial security . . .
(b) MINIMUM SERVICES TO BE COVERED.—The items and services described in this subsection are the following:
(1) Hospitalization.
(2) Outpatient hospital and outpatient clinic services . . .
(3) Professional services of physicians and other health professionals.
(4) Such services, equipment, and supplies incident to the services of a physician’s or a health professional’s delivery of care . . .
(5) Prescription drugs.
(6) Rehabilitative and habilitative services.
(7) Mental health and substance use disorder services.
(8) Preventive services . . .
(9) Maternity care.
(10) Well baby and well child care . . .
(c) REQUIREMENTS RELATING TO COST-SHARING AND MINIMUM ACTUARIAL VALUE . . .
(3) MINIMUM ACTUARIAL VALUE.—
(A) IN GENERAL.—The cost-sharing under the essential benefits package shall be designed to provide a level of coverage that is designed to provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to approximately 70 percent of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the reference benefits package described in subparagraph (B).
EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGES:
1. The bill defines “acceptable coverage” and leaves no room for choice in this regard.
2. By setting a minimum 70% actuarial value of benefits, the bill makes health plans in which individuals pay for routine services, but carry insurance only for catastrophic events, (such as Health Savings Accounts) illegal.

Does THE PLAN ALLOW THE GOVERNMENT TO set FEES FOR SERVICES?
What it says, page 124, Sec. 223, PAYMENT RATES FOR ITEMS AND SERVICES:
(d) CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this subtitle shall be construed as limiting the Secretary’s authority to correct for payments that are excessive or deficient, taking into account the provisions of section 221(a) and the amounts paid for similar health care providers and services under other Exchange-participating health benefits plans.
(e) CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this subtitle shall be construed as affecting the authority of the Secretary to establish payment rates, including payments to provide for the more efficient delivery of services, such as the initiatives provided for under section 224.
EVALUATION OF THE PASSAGES:
The government’s authority to set payments is basically unlimited.
The official will decide what constitutes “excessive,” “deficient,” and “efficient” payments and services.

Oh…and how about that panel of 19 “non government employees” (Half of whom SHALL BE APPOINTED by the president) and must consist of at least ONE physician who will make the decisions as to what procedures are covered and what meds are covered. Their decisions are to be presented to congress to approve or disapprove. No cherry picking….it’s all or nothing. Once approved by congress, their recommendations are permanent. So…19 folks are going to make the decisions that shall be unimpeachable??? Sure the insurance companies make similar decisions now….but we citizens have recourse in the courts. Try suing this supreme council.

Zeke has mastered the John Kerry apology, “I’m truly sorry if anything I said was misunderstood.”

“Sure the insurance companies make similar decisions now….but we citizens have recourse in the courts.” -OK, let me see if I understand what you are suggesting: A person gets a catastrophic illness and the insurance company denies a needed procedure. The sick patient then has to hire a lawyer to go against the corporation’s battalion of lawyers. Then, if by some chance the patient wins before dying, the corporation appeals the ruling to avoid setting precedent. Come on NC, you know the system is rigged in the insurance company’s favor.

Oh…and how about that panel of 19 “non government employees” (Half of whom SHALL BE APPOINTED by the president) and must consist of at least ONE physician who will make the decisions as to what procedures are covered and what meds are covered. Their decisions are to be presented to congress to approve or disapprove. No cherry picking….it’s all or nothing. Once approved by congress, their recommendations are permanent. So…19 folks are going to make the decisions that shall be unimpeachable??? Sure the insurance companies make similar decisions now….but we citizens have recourse in the courts. Try suing this supreme council.
so ncpilot—if the recommendations are to be approved by the congress according to your statement- then how do you conclude that 19 people are making the decision. Last I checked there are more than 19 people in the US congress including many of your rebuplican cronies. Instead of ranting and demonstrating your inability to understand a complex bill (that is not even completed) why don’t you come out and say the real reason why you rant against health care reform?

Jennifer – I support health reform, but I have to agree with NCPilot that most Republicans are not opposing reform on racial grounds. I remember that the vitrol against Clinton was just as great. However, I do think that the anti-reformers have attracted a racist fringe that the Republican leadership refuses to acknowledge and repudiate.

Jake Tapper buries the lede in the 2ND TO LAST GRAF!!: “About 15 years ago he did think rationing was necessary because of cost issues but he has come to change his mind.”
Thanks, Jake, for trying to hide that. The bills do create death panels and both Obama and Rahm’s brother have repeatedly endorsed rationing to block vital services for older Americans. They are only backing off now because it is hurting Obama’s poll numbers and dooming his government takeover of our health care.

“Sure the insurance companies make similar decisions now….but we citizens have recourse in the courts.” -OK, let me see if I understand what you are suggesting: A person gets a catastrophic illness and the insurance company denies a needed procedure. The sick patient then has to hire a lawyer to go against the corporation’s battalion of lawyers. Then, if by some chance the patient wins before dying, the corporation appeals the ruling to avoid setting precedent. Come on NC, you know the system is rigged in the insurance company’s favor.
Posted by: Mark from atlanta | Aug 13, 2009 10:46:35 PM
========================================Mark, what is the recourse for when the government denies care?
Now, we already know soldiers cannot sue doctors or hospitals for their botch jobs, just ask the 20 yr old air force soldier who lost both of his legs this past June to a bothc gal bladder surgery removal.
We also know that soldiers and vets currently wait considerable amounts of time for care, therefore what is the recourse for regular citizens who have to wait long periods of time or who are denied care by government fat cats?

“About 15 years ago he did think rationing was necessary because of cost issues but he has come to change his mind.” hmmm…. But if the government disagrees, don’t worry, he has a plan for how the rationing should take place.
Somehow I feel soooooo much better now!

Thank you for your reasoning, Mark from Atlanta. I typically enjoy reading your posts also. We do have philosophical differences, but i don’t think either one of us is radical. And to be fair, the left side has attracted its share of rascist fringe, but it is and always will be politically incorrect to suggest that people do not need to be white to be racist. I am not against reform. But I AM against being sold a bill of goods that I cannot examine. And I’m more that willing to see our government supplement the existing health care system we have by providing health care at a reduced cost, or even free, to indigent citizens. They can buy (with my tax money if necessary) insurance policies from the free market. Keep the government out of it. I disagree with the government take over of GM and the banks also. It’s just my thoughts. I think that this administration has way overstepped the authority and responsibility that our founding fathers had in mind for our separation of powers and checks and balances. Thanks

How long has Sarah Palin been in the medical field? Has she thought about those who suffered or died because of no healthcare reform? If she really cares about “all” lives, then let the dead speak for themselves. Don’t make things up.
Of course if she is aiming for 2012 she is not going to admit Obama has a vision of long-term common good healthcare for the country. In order to pave her own road, this is one “opportunity” to use falsehood to mislead and fool at least some of the people. The more destruction she creates, the more her chance to gain.
Imagine, why wouldn’t anyone who “cares” about long-term common good of the country work alongside with the country’s president to “help” create a united, peaceful, and positive situation at “all times”?
But Palin is doing the opposite…

I like how the end of the political ad, er, I mean “article,” acknowledges Sarah Palin quoted him exactly and did NOT twist the meaning of his words. So how was Palin “thoroughly discredited”? Like most Americans these days, I don’t watch the MSM so I have no idea who this Jake Tapper is, but the photo says it all: smug, arrogant, not too bright. “Politcal Punch”? “Power, Pop and Probings”? I don’t think so. And somehow the evil stuff that doesn’t exist in the bill just became real enough to be removed from it a few hours ago. Bad timing for this pathetic hackwork of an article

Mark, you are meticulous in your writing and in your reasoning; however, we still have philosophical differences. The infant mortality rate in this country is being unfairly argued. I do believe that you have been in the medical field in some capacity for the past 10 years? My wife is a nurse (retired a couple of years ago after 25 years). I’m a nuclear engineer, but have volunteered as a paramedic with a local rescue squad for over 18 years. I have some medical background also. I’m just providing quals, not playing “mine’s bigger”. I do know that when a baby is born in this country, if it takes the first breath, it is considered a live birth. In many, if not most, countries that we are being compared to, a baby is not considered a live birth until it reaches the one week mark. So those babies born and die 2 days later are not added to the infant mortality figures. In the US, they are. Also, prenatal care IS available. We have an epidemic in this country of babies having babies. Health care reform won’t help that. What will help that will be 2 parent families and cohesive families. There should be a stigma attached to the term “baby daddy”, not a hallmark card for it. But that is politically incorrect also. I really need to get to bed, but i’d love to discuss this with you sometime. I don’t think that we are that far apart in ideals….just on how to reach them. Goodnight

KM Day–
I still remember my wife and I laughing when we brought our first child home because we had absolutely no idea how to care for the child, other than instinct.
I can’t see the harm in a medical worker stopping in answering questions and showing how to properly change a diaper. I think it should be voluntary and you are right that people’s privacy and religious practices should be respected. Oveall, giving new parents an additional resource that will help them be better parents is money well spent.

“therefore what is the recourse for regular citizens who have to wait long periods of time or who are denied care by government fat cats?” – Good question. Lets compare the two scenarios: You get a catastrophic illness and are denied service by your insurer. You have two options: Try to argue with their “customer service” (good luck with that one) or try to switch to another company with your serious pre-existing condition (good luck with that one too). Now lets look at the government insurance plan: You are denied service so you get on the phone with a customer rep whose job it is to actually help, not deflect calls (I have delt with these people with my mother’s Medicare and most do a pretty good job of helping). Now lets say that doesnt work, so you then have the option of going to the “constituent services” section of your elected official’s office. Believe or not they really go out of their way to help with everything from getting lost SS checks to Medicare claims. Its the “bread and butter” of electoral politics. Now think about the two scenerios I have laid out. Admittedly neither is perfect, but with the governement you have a fighting chance. Think about this: You dont see insurance companies setting up town halls, do you?

I’m a middleage single mother and a democrat without health insurance and I work 40-50 hours a week, my employer does not provide health insurance. So yes I want healthcare reform.
If I don’t have health insurance and I get swine flu I’m not going to the doctor and I will cough, sneeze, and touch as many republicans as I can and spread the love around.
And if healthcare reform was sooo bad why do republicans need to stop even the discussion?
Oh and not one republican voted to stop medicare/medicaid and social security when it came up for a vote last month, you know the government’s “socialized” insurance for the elderly.
How many republicans take or will advantage of our governments “Socialized” medicaid/medicare? All of you I’ll bet. Hypocritical idiots every one of you.

Oh, and I just read the Dr. E told Jake
“He notes that his sister has Cerebral Palsy, so he is not without personal sympathy for those with disabilities.
”
Ok, he is not without personal sympathy for the people that don’t get the interventions…..I feel better now.

bkzeallen, You are quoting him out of context, too. The article states he co-wrote an article about a situation in which rationing was forced because there was only one liver and several patients.
Answer this question, you your pregnant wife and your son all need a liver transplant. There is only one liver available. Who do you give it to? Why do you choose that person?

As for Palin’s vision of “Obama ‘death panels,’” Emanuel argues “there’s no basis for that claim either in any of my writings or the legislation….so says Dr. Emanuel. That’s strange, as there are several “writings” over the past 10-12 years where you clearly laid out how rationing of services was not only doable…but actually required. Must be a bummer when you own words come back to haunt you. And the current provisions contained in HR 3200 could easily be used to ration care…all under the guidance of the various committees and the HHS Secretary…with no oversight and no recourse. And you want us to trust you, is that it?

If “Ignorance is Bliss” why are religious conservative republicans so mean spirited? Perhaps ignorance is not a blissful state after all and is anti-God like in all its manifestations.

Tapper LIES again. The claim has not been discredited at all. Sarah Palin never discussed euthanasia, but was referring to the inevitable effect of rationing which is DEATH.
Amazing, how Emanual can LIE straight to Tapper and Tapper eats it up. Has Jake read Emanuals writings?
By the way, Jake, how is the white house getting americans emails when they never gave it to them?

“I do see insurance companies donating 150 million dollars to Obama’s ad campaign for health care reform ” – Are you sure? I read it was the drug companies who are donating. The insurance companies are fighting this tooth and nail. If the insurance companies were supporting it it probably would be meaningless “reform.”
No, they’ve got the Repubs and Blue Dogs in their pockets, but not the progressive Dems. At least I dont think they do – we shall see in the Fall!

Besides nc if I were to spread swine flu to my fellow republicans what’s the worry they all have health insurance, right?

The healthcare plan is going to fail

Tapper writes: “Asked by ABC News in an interview about the thoroughly discredited claim by former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to paint his philosophical writings as evidence…”
Is Tapper a journalist or another Josef Goebbels?

I prefer to believe what he wrote in The Lancet as opposed to what he’s saying currently. I’m not confused, that article was pretty clear. If you fall within a certain age bracket, you are more valuable to society than when you fall outside of it. Limited resources to be applied to the most valuable.
Yep, I got it. What did you say again, Dr Emmanuel?

“I have a degree in analytical philosophy and I think we should teach basic logic and philosophical analysis in highschool. It would really help people out.”
Posted by: Bart | Aug 13, 2009 11:21:57 PM
“I have a degree in analytical philosophy and I think we should teach basic logic and philosophical analysis in highschool. It would really help right-wingers out.”
There – I fixed it for ya.

I totally agree with you Mark from Atlanta. Well put:
“I support the reform bill for a number reasons including the public option which will provide competition to the insurance cartels, the provision that bans denial of coverage based on pre-existing conditions, no more patient dumping when a patient gets a catastrophic condition, and (according to the CBO) coverage of the 47 million of our fellow Americans who have no insurance for themselves and their children. This last point may go along way toward boosting our infant survival rates which, according to the CIA Factbook, rank 19th among all countries.
Infant survival depends, in part, on access to quality, affordable pre-natal care. If it saves one child – I’m for it.”

You might want to take the time and actually read the study several times in order to understand its content. Cherry picking a few excerpts in order to fill a preconceived ideological bent is not conducive to scientific understanding. As Dr. Emanuel points out, ethical considerations regarding “scarce medical” procedures are not easily understood by the layman.
The Lancet study was co-authored by three (3) authors. Additionally, while they seem to endorse a “complete lives” standard (and I must remind the reader that this applies only to scarce medical procedures) the also clearly point out its deficiencies and objections. To wit:
“Reduced chances for persons who have lived many years; life-years are not a relevant health care outcome; unable to deal with international diff erences in life expectancy; need lexical priority
rather than balancing; complete lives system is not appropriate for general distribution of health care resources.”
There is also several paragraphs regarding objections beginning on page 429:
“We consider several important objections to the complete lives system. The complete lives system discriminates against older people. Age-based allocation is ageism. Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different life stages rather than being a single age.”
Not only is this applicable in ethics but it is not uncommon to find such studies taken into consideration by health insurance companies, hospitals, etc.

“I do see insurance companies donating 150 million dollars to Obama’s ad campaign for health care reform ” – Are you sure? I read it was the drug companies who are donating. The insurance companies are fighting this tooth and nail. If the insurance companies were supporting it it probably would be meaningless “reform.”
No, they’ve got the Repubs and Blue Dogs in their pockets, but not the progressive Dems. At least I dont think they do – we shall see in the Fall!
Posted by: Mark from atlanta | Aug 13, 2009 11:37:37 PM
***
I think what you may be talking about is $150 billion in cost savings from hospital associations announced on July 6th with no details, and $80 billion from Big Pharma, as Jake’s mentioned. From the NYT: “Discussions are on-going,” said Jennifer Armstrong Gay, a spokeswoman for the American Hospital Association, one of the groups involved in the talks. “We are continuing to meet with Congress and the White House.”
“At various points, there have been misunderstandings between the White House and industry groups. In May, for instance, Mr. Obama said doctor and hospital groups had pledged to reduce healthcare costs by 1.5 percent but the groups later clarified that they had promised only to help squeeze spending so that the rate of growth is eventually 1.5 percent lower.”

The good doctor lives in a bubble. He ASSUMES the government is not corrupt. He also ASSUMES the government has the ability to properly run a “universal system”.
If he were to step out of his bubble and take corruption and incompetence into consideration all of his theories would fall apart.
On top of that, he also ASSUMES the government can foresee the future and properly predict advances in science. Impossible. Medicare is screwed up because the idiots in the 60′s couldn’t foresee advances in medicine that drastically lengthened the lives of people on Medicare. They also failed to foresee the invention of devices like MRI’s. So they couldn’t properly predict the cost of healthcare decades into the future.
I hate people like the good doctor because they fail to recognize the complexity of life. They ASSUME the complexities of today will be the same tomorrow, and that the government can and will properly adjust to the unpredictable nature of the world.
His theories are only good for entertainment. And in the real world his theories are at best impotent.

Looks like you got bagged on this one Jake. Palin’s remarks were so “thoroughly discredited” that Congress is going to change the language in the bill.

You might want to take the time and actually read the study several times in order to understand its content. Cherry picking a few excerpts in order to fill a preconceived ideological bent is not conducive to scientific understanding. As Dr. Emanuel points out, ethical considerations regarding “scarce medical” procedures are not easily understood by the layman.
Posted by: Gus | Aug 14, 2009 12:01:40 AM
***
Good post, Gus. I don’t blame Dr. Emanuel for being outraged. It’s clear a lot of people don’t get that “a lot of philosophy can sometimes seem extremely abstract to people and hard to follow — even well-educated people” and/or can’t see where they’re missing the meaning in context and/or don’t want to see anything that lies outside of what suits their purposes. I’m glad he’s spoken out because what’s happened in this debate in terms of twisting his work and caricaturing him is really troubling to me.

The problem right now with the health care reform bill is not in how it is actually written, but how the government will interpret it later. Voluntary counseling of seniors regarding end-of-life care and issues seems innocuous at present, but at some point in time, big government will choose to interpret the legislation more strictly in order to have tighter regulation of the system and to keep it from losing money, which it most assuredly will – just read the CBO reports. Goverment has never run anything efficiently or at a profit, and health care will be no exception.

Jake,
HA-HA!
You have turned into a laughable cartoon character of an OBAMA shill!
Reading your hissy fits about Palin are truly entertaining. You and your OBAMA BRO George Snuffalupagus have had it in for her since day one and can’t contain your hate. I recommend a twelve step program because she OWNS you!

Omni,
Medicare is broke. Starting in 2010, the program will be spending more than what it takes in. By 2019, Medicare’s reserve fund is depleted and it’s back to real-time funding. Since the Baby Boomer generation will be in full swing by that time, there will not be enough workers paying into the system to cover costs. The study I’ve seen says 65-68% funding…if we’re lucky. So I’m not sure I would be holding that system up as a positive. It provides great benefits, but it’s not sustainable. That’s why so many people are skeptical of ObamaCare. No way their estimates are even close to what it will actually cost…and we don’t have the money to cover even their estimates. Why should we trust them to manage a program that is 6x as big as Medicare? Doesn’t make any sense. Fix Medicare and then we can talk…but not until.

ncpilot09 wrote:
I met literally hundreds of other conservatives down on the coast donating their time and money to rebuild. I don’t think I met even one Liberal….they all wanted to stay home and criticize from the comforts of their living rooms.
…hey ncpilot09…apparently you never ran into Brad Pitt…he’s a real big nasty liberal and I believe he’s donated quite a lot of time and money to rebuild after Katrina!

I’m glad he’s spoken out because what’s happened in this debate in terms of twisting his work and caricaturing him is really troubling to me.
Posted by: Alyson | Aug 14, 2009 12:17:38 AM
…….
That’s funny because it’s clear to me that he supports a “universal system”… in fact he says he does. Now he can make excuses, but the truth is- in a “universal system” someone in the government has to decide how to use finite resources for an entire population.
He says many times that he may not agree with rationing care but that it is unavoidable. So since it’s unavoidable we should accept it and use some of his thoughts to guide the rationing.
Sorry, but that is unacceptable to me and many other people. Under a “universal system” he would be like a god, designing systems that bureaucrats would use to ration care. And people like me are saying we don’t want people like him with that kind of power.

Jake, did you ask Ezekiel if he still believes that doctors take the Hippocratic oath too seriously? It would seem Zeke is of the opinion that the oath should be reinterpreted to factor in “costs” and “effects on others”
Rather chilling, wouldn’t you say, Jake?

The sad thing about the “rationing” argument is that those who are making it don’t seem to understand that they are saying to the less fortunate that they cannot have access to health care because there isn’t enough to go around and that might adversely impact those of us who are more fortunate. These people are basically saying, “too bad, I’m not going to share.”
Were we always this selfish?

What really gets me are Obama’s claims that there will be a “savings” while HR 3200 basically contains an enormous wish list of “wouldn’t it be nice to have?” services.
As written, there are three phenomenally dangerous elements to the plan.
1. It is grossly underfunded, despite levying enormous and burdensome taxes on individuals and businesses alike.
2. It adds all sorts of ridiculous things, from social worker home visits to “teach parenting”(?!!) to marriage counseling to end-of-life counseling sessions to free addiction resources.
3. The result will be a financial disaster. However, this is okay because of the cost-control measures built into the system–that is, the board which decides what will be covered and what won’t.
Result? Marriage counseling will be guaranteed to anyone who wants it. Someone who has chosen to destroy their lives with meth will be guaranteed a spot in a rehab facility. But infants born before 24 weeks can be classified as non-persons, as they are in the UK already, and their lives can be thrown away with impunity. And an elderly person with a broken hip can be denied surgery because they have no value left to society and their condition isn’t life-threatening–won’t they be “better off not having the surgery and taking pain pills instead?” And a person with a developmental disability will be refused therapy because it will never pay off, economically, for society.
If you think Emanuel is a piece of work, you should check out what Holdren believes.

Note: Most People are Under-Insured Or Not Insured and the Other Poor Souls are Covered 40-70% Insured. Here’s the Sad News, If you are Not 100% Covered, You are Not In a Good Position Period.
Pride Will find You in Bankruptcy Or Homeless, especially after you get that 40-70,000 $$ Medical Bill Not Covered by Your [Private Insurance]
Reality:Private Health Care is Rationed Health Care and You Love It.
If you have 100% Health Insurance, why the Uproar ?
Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck and Michael Savage are 100% Covered and a Multi-Millionaires, Not You, Not Me and Not Most Americans.

Shawn S: there was an interesting look at Palin’s new facebook entry on msnbc. Turns out she referenced Eugene Robinson in that entry giving it a 180 degree spin form what he actually said. They had him on there discussing it. More taking out of complete context as Zeke E. was describing above. That’s all they’ve got.

Yeah, um, you people should really learn what the meaning of the term “dysphemism” because while there is certainly no literal use of the term “death panel” in these bills, that’s exactly what any sort of government health treatment authority will be.
Mr. Tapper, Sarah Palin’s claims are by no means “thoroughly discredited.” There will be panels and bureaucrats who will make disinterested and heartless decisions about the level of care an individual will be allowed to receive and those decisions will obviously result in the eventual death of that individual.
As Ms Palin pointed out, you can’t “bend the cost curve” by adding people to the rolls. The government can’t lower the cost, the government will just refuse to pay the cost and people will die.
It’s not that complicated to understand.

There is a difference between a death panel than Living Wills. As medical technology becomes more sophisticated they can keep people nominally alive or resucitate them and continue making money off them while there continues to be physical suffering, vegetation, and disagreement from family that are helpless. Or just that the dying person doesn’t want their family devestated by medical bills from unwanted procedures that have diminishing returns and end up with more people in vegetative care for years in nursing homes. the whole “DNR” do not resucitate and living wills on file allow the family to make the decision when it is needed and protects them from doctor and government interventionas occurred with Terry Schaivo. My kids have asked me to do one, they know my verbal wishes but that might not help if I have gotten in an accident and am brain dead.
On the other hand every once in a while you hear of a person making complete recovery of a person declared brain dead, or the recent case of the infant in south american that was born prematurely and declared dead by the hospital but when they went to prepare him for burial he started to cry and so far is still stable.
The bottom line, as someone said astutely recently in this debate, no one wants to die attached to IVs and feeding tubes. I think there is a lot of anger about the inhumanity of our modern medical system, which you gotta give it to the right they seem to be succcessfully channelling towards the progressives who are trying to listen to all sides and work towards compassionate legislation.

John Greene
What is your point? Insurance companies make the life and death decisions now by denying claims, refusing medications to patients who need them to lessen suffering and even death, by canceling policies when people most need them,by denying coverage for people with pre-existing conditions(I had a friend who was denied coverage because she had a “pre-existing” condition – hip replacement surgery), by raising premiums to the point where many Americans cannot afford coverage……people are already dying and suffering because of the power-hungry, bottom dollar line god of insurance companies. I want a health care plan available to ALL Americans and I am willing to pay higher taxes so that eveyone has a choice.

Like Shootin’ Moose In A Barrel, Sarah Palin Slaps Barack Obama Down Again Over Death Panels
*Note…this refutes everything Dr Zeek is saying!

Nothing is worse than leaving an end of life decisions to your children. One must be responsible for what he or she wants to be done in grave illnesses. Consulting with physicians and having a living will and durable power of attorney for health care makes it very easy for family member to honor the patient wishes. Nothing is worse than dying in ICU on ventilator or receiving aggressive medical therapy when you are against it. Have a living will. I have one and I’m 40 years old have 3 young children and not planning to die anytime soon.

this guy reminds me of Mengele

I think this is an effort by the GOP to use Jews as a scapegoat.

Alyson: there is an article on Huffpost reporting Pharma has committed to 150 mil to positive health care reform issues to be addressed in this bill.
Posted by: Sumalmamus | Aug 14, 2009 12:48:43 AM
***
Thanks! I’ll go check it out. Keep fighting the good fight with all these self-proclaimed philosophers with (cough, cough) far more training than Dr. Emanuel.
OmniPresent, your posts have been rocking! Thanks for making me smile and keeping me sane while reading some of the posts.
Jake, I’m with you. Palin’s claims have been thoroughly discredited.
Palin supporters, go for it– Palin/Bachmann 2012! (Double dog dare ya.)
Palin, think about the troops and quit making stuff up!!

“your posts have been rocking!” – Same for you. We have a long road ahead, but healthcare for all will happen.

Governor Palin proclaimed April 16, 2008 as Healthcare Decisions Day in Alaska
Healthcare Decisions Day
WHEREAS, Healthcare Decisions Day is designed to raise public awareness of the need to plan ahead for healthcare decisions, related to end of life care and medical decision-making whenever patients are unable to speak for themselves and to encourage the specific use of advance directives to communicate these important healthcare decisions. WHEREAS, in Alaska, Alaska Statute 13.52 provides the specifics of the advance directives law and offers a model form for patient use.
WHEREAS, it is estimated that only about 20 percent of people in Alaska have executed an advance directive. Moreover, it is estimated that less than 50 percent of severely or terminally ill patients have an advance directive.
WHEREAS, it is likely that a significant reason for these low percentages is that there is both a lack of knowledge and considerable confusion in the public about Advance Directives.
WHEREAS, one of the principal goals of Healthcare Decisions Day is to encourage hospitals, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, continuing care retirement communities, and hospices to participate in a statewide effort to provide clear and consistent information to the public about advance directives, as well as to encourage medical professionals and lawyers to volunteer their time and efforts to improve public knowledge and increase the number of Alaska’s citizens with advance directives.
WHEREAS, the Foundation for End of Life Care in Juneau, Alaska, and other organizations throughout the United States have endorsed this event and are committed to educating the public about the importance of discussing healthcare choices and executing advance directives.
WHEREAS, as a result of April 16, 2008, being recognized as Healthcare Decisions Day in Alaska, more citizens will have conversations about their healthcare decisions; more citizens will execute advance directives to make their wishes known; and fewer families and healthcare providers will have to struggle with making difficult healthcare decisions in the absence of guidance from the patient.
NOW, THEREFORE, I, Sarah Palin, Governor of the state of Alaska, do hereby proclaim April 16, 2008, as: Healthcare Decisions Day in Alaska, and I call this observance to the attention of all our citizens.
Dated: April 16, 2008

Well, well, well. Little Ms. Sarah had her very own Death Panel last year! What a macaroon!
Thank you for posting that, MrUniteUs. The same document can also be found on the State of Alaska’s web site.

Emmanuel is a loser, just google him and read the radical stuff he’s written about healthcare. He’s playing defense and not winning the argument.
Update tonight, they removed the end of life garbage from the bill. I’m an Independent and not a Palin fan, and her word choice was provocative, but she had a point and that’s why they removed the language from the bill.
Any healthcare/insurance reform bill without tort reform is a complete joke, and not allowing cross-state competition like auto insurance etc.. is also stupid. Lobbyists have Obama in their pocket on this one, that’s who helped draft it…that’s widely known yet rarely reported.

Thank God for people like Sarah Palin who has the guts to expose the hypocrisy of the WH administration and everyone in it. The truth about this whole healthcare situation is that its really about the gov’t controlling the American people. they’ll have access to our bank accounts and personal information and use it against us.They don’t care about the millions of uninsured americans. They just want to control lives and pursue their own socialist agenda. Otherwise, why not come up with a plan that does not have the gov’t running the system? They’ll never go for that. So in the end, they’ll ram it down our throats just like the stimulus pkg, cap and trade, car bailouts etc. Our children and great grandchildren will be paying for all this until our citizens have been impoverished, with the exception of the president and his cronies and his community organizers. They will enrich themselves through us.

Medicaid and Medicare have been deciding whether people live or die for decades. Wake up, people!!! Give me one government program that actually works!!!. They’re all wasteful, inefficient and poorly run. You actually think the Government all of a sudden is going to run a program like a business would and add 47 million people to it who won’t be paying a dime!!! Everyone whose on welfare, doesn’t work and lives off the Gov’t are the only ones who don’t give a damn when we economically go down the toilet. If Pres. Obama keeps this up, we better start learning to speak Chinese because they’ll own the Unites States of America!!!

Withholding medical treatment is not the same as euthansia, trying to equate Palin’s words with euthansia is dishonest. Emanuel can try to spin his words now all he wants, but they are on the internet for anyone to read. He absolutely did express support for rationing care based on one’s productivity.

Obama lied when he said that the AARP were “on board” with his plan. The AARP slapped him down. Maybe Obama should stick to his enemy’s list he is compiling with illegal White House e-mail systems people can use to rat out their family and friends.

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel = Dr. Josef Mengele. Another do-gooder who became a mass murderer. Must be all that “National Socialism” around Berlin in the 1930s and the White House right now.

1.Most Americans are not 100% Covered by any Health Insurance Plan.
Government Insurance:Single Payer Plans In Existence & Shared Plans
2. 60 Million or More are on Medi-Care
3. Millions More on Medi-Caid
4. DOD: Dept. Of Defense
5. CHIP: American Children Covered
6. VA: Hospitals
Note: Most People are Under-Insured Or Not Insured and the Other Poor Souls are Covered 40-70% Insured. Here’s the Sad News, If you are Not 100% Covered, You are Not In a Good Position Period.
Pride Will find You in Bankruptcy Or Homeless, especially after you get that 40-70,000 $$ Medical Bill Not Covered by Your [Private Insurance]
Reality:Private Health Care is Rationed Health Care and You Love It.
If you have 100% Health Insurance, why the Uproar ?
Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck and Michael Savage are 100% Covered and a Multi-Millionaires, Not You, Not Me and Not Most Americans.

Reality: Private Insurance already makes Life and Death Decisions.
Reality: Most of you singing the praises of Private Health Insurance, are not 100% Covered Nor do you have a [Cadilac Insurance Plan] like Fat Hog,Rush Limbaugh.
Reality: Medi-Care is an Already Established Single Payer Plan, also the DOD & VA Hospital.
Reality: Insurance is 16.8% of the GDP and Climbing.
Private Health Insurance Companies Don’t Give a [!!!!] About You and will Continue to Incline and Decrease what they will Cover, If You Allow them to.
Good Bye

So Dr Emanuel was really not for the health care positions he oulined in his writings and speeches but now he is sure he is against them but carefully refrained from denouncing any of the bills in Congress that ar based on his writings.
Listening to Obama, Gibbs and now Emaniel is akin to sitting down with Alice at the Madhatter’s Tea party as sheer nonsense is being uttered according to the
Alice in Wonderland linguistic world of Humpty Dumpty “”When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,’ it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.”

Zeke said “doctors take the Hippocratic Oath far too literally.”
It’s a problem having your own words stuck in your face.

“Is he saying, as Palin and others have suggested, that those who aren’t “participating citizens” should have no guarantee to health care?
“No,” Emanuel says”
Sure.
And AARP is on board with the plan and you can keep your current plan and your doctor.
Zeke is Rahm’s brother. You can’t trust either of them.

He can spin it anyway he wants but the Federal Health Board would be set up for what reason. To determine if the “investment” in your care is worth it. Since when did Doctor’s care about investments when it comes to helathcare? They should just care about the patient. He is the one that wrote this trgedy and now doesn’t want to defend it. He just wants to manipulate ABC.

“…a provision allowing for “doctors to talk to patients about end of life care, and turn it into the suggestion…”
Dr.Liar! It doesn’t say ALLOWING -it says “required!”
The goal, said Obama, is savings, and 80% of the healthcare use is naturally from older folks. The only savings worth anything is by “consulticide.”
We watch how you treat inconvienient babies (in, and now with Obama, out of the womb) and we fully know that you consider our Creator’s gift of life, as merely an impediment to your evil fortunes.

It’d be a good idea if you’d read Zeke’s article, Jake.
“But without appealing to
a conception of the good, it is argued, we can never
establish priorities among health care services and
define basic medical services. This is Dan Callahan’s
view with which I agree:2
. .. there can be no full discussion of equality
in health care without an equally full discussion
of the substantive goods and goals that medicine
and health care should pursue … [U]nless
there can be a discussion of the goals of medicine
in the future as rich as that of justice and
health has been, the latter problem will simply
not admit of any meaningful solution.”
“We may go even further. Without overstating it
(and without fully defending it) not only is there a
consensus about the need for a conception of the
good, there may even be a consensus about the particular
conception of the good that should inform
policies on these nonconstitutional political issues.”
He disagrees with NOTHING.

Let’s all read it together:
“Communitarians endorse civic republicanism and a
growing number of liberals endorse some version
of deliberative democracy. Both envision a need for
citizens who are independent and responsibile and
for public forums that present citizens with opportunities
to enter into public deliberations on social
policies.
This civic republican or deliberative democratic
conception of the good provides both procedural
and substantive insights for developing a just allocation
of health care resources. Procedurally, it suggests
the need for public forums to deliberate about
which health services should be considered basic
and should be socially guaranteed. Substantively, it
suggests services that promote the continuation of
the polity-those that ensure healthy future generations,
ensure development of practical reasoning
skills, and ensure full and active participation by citizens
in public deliberations-are to be socially guaranteed
as basic. Conversely, services provided to individuals
who are irreversibly prevented from being
or becoming participating citizens are not basic and
should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is
not guaranteeing health services to patients with de-mentia. A less obvious example Is is guaranteeing neuropsychological
services to ensure children with learning disabilities
can read and learn to reason.
Clearly, more needs to be
done to elucidate what specific
health care services are basic;
however, the overlap between
liberalism and communitarianism points to a way of
introducing the good back into medical ethics and
devising a principled way of distinguishing basic
from discretionary health care services. Perhaps using
this progress in political philosophy we can begin
to address Dan’s challenge, begin to discuss the
goods and goals of medicine.”
Someone can show me where Zeke disagrees. In fact he makes the case that this is the liberal view.

It is particularly useless to bring something called “Crooks and Liars” into a factual discussion.

Hey Omni
You left something out- well, actually you left a lot out.
From adn:
“Davis, the attorney who has brought many of the suits, said he doesn’t believe people are dying because of poor quality care or abuse. While the state doesn’t allow as many hours of care as people need, he said, the care itself is good. The multitude of private contractors makes the field competitive, and clients can switch providers if they aren’t satisfied, he said.”
Then you can explain to us what a Governor is supposed to do with paperwork whose demands are established by the legislature.
You left winguts are fabulous at extracting and posting misinformation.

This guy is both smart and not so smart.
His statment about no longer needing rationing of health care makes Sarah Palin look like a genius. Behold– according to him Medical Care as opposed to all other goods including Food, energy, higher education, you name it, is no longer bound by that old nemisis “scarcity”. All we have to do is trim the waste. And he advises Pres Obama?
Tapper — how could you let him get away with it!!!
He said the following:
About 15 years ago he did think rationing was necessary because of cost issues but he has come to change his mind. “The more I’ve looked into it the less I think it’s true,” he says. “We spend a lot of money and resources — hundreds of billions of dollars — for unnecessary care, care that doesn’t help patients,” and in some case might make them sicker by exposing them to hospital-acquired infections.
“We don’t have to raise the issue of denying care, or choosing which people gets services,” he says.
(In other words medical care becomes a free good.)
Put this man in charge of getting out the waste in the medical system. Also have him enroll in a basic economics class.

This man SHOULD NOT be involved in Government. We are “keeping” thousands of these so called intellectuals in Colleges and Universities all over this country. The have tenure and do nothing but sit around and “intellectualize about radical left concepts while TA’s teach the classes. We need to ABOLISH tenure in all levels of education and if these self ordained arrogant individuals can’t cut it actually teaching – they can try to get a REAL job in the private sector and come out of their vacuum.
Zeke Emmanuel SCARES ME TO DEATH. Because the will talk it up from all sides but even considering rationing of health care based on age is just plain sick. Why don’t we stop paying for abortions which have become a form of birth control. If someone want to get one – LET THEM PAY FOR IT. If someone is FAT – let them pay for the surgery to get a gastric by-pass.
The LEFT just keep TALKING and not LISTENING. Obama spent most of the time at this Town Hall meeting sweet talking with that fake Southern Drawl and only had his shills stand up to ask pre-scripted questions. They even used the 11 yo kid.

It’s an interesting and lengthy article but it does read like a Barack Obama Health Care speech. I get done reading it, and I know that I have read a bunch of stuff that Sarah Palin is misguided, that the Health Care Issues are complicated for academics (never mind the rest of us), and that Zeke believes in none of it: his writings were to be read as “What If” analyses, not his actual beliefs.
But after reading all of that, I realize that I still have no idea what Zeke believes in! Then I become paranoid and wonder if there is meaning between the lines that I am not getting, that somewhere between the generalizations there is detail to what he believes: just like an Obama speech.
What does Zeke believe in?

Reality: Private Insurance already makes Life and Death Decisions.
Reality: Most of you singing the praises of Private Health Insurance, are not 100% Covered Nor do you have a [Cadilac Insurance Plan] like Fat Hog,Rush Limbaugh.
Reality: Medi-Care is an Already Established Single Payer Plan, also the DOD & VA Hospital.
Reality: Insurance is 16.8% of the GDP and Climbing.
Private Health Insurance Companies Don’t Give a [!!!!] About You and will Continue to Incline and Decrease what they will Cover, If You Allow them to.
Good Bye

Zeke believes to the core of his being, as does his brother and the players in Obama’s clan that THEY KNOW BETTER THAN THE MOST AMERICANS WHAT IS GOOD FOR THEM.
Their level of arrogance is disgusting and insulting. History has shown what evolves from government having this attitude.
We need LESS Government, Term Limits on Congress and changing the laws so Congress pays Social Security and they come under any health care law they pass for this country.
Posted by: ILona English | Aug 14, 2009 8:58:43 AM
This deserves to be posted over and over again.
Ask your representative if they think they were “hired” to make decisions based on what the constituents want or if they are sent to DC to make decisions based “what’s best”. If it is the latter, VOTE THEM OUT!

I’m pretty tired of the insinuations that we’re all too stupid to follow along and form an opinion….
Posted by: Rachel | Aug 14, 2009 9:37:16 AM
***
If you actually do read his work in context and then read some of the posts here, you’ll see that the insinuation isn’t all that far off the mark.

Just like Obama’s old video clips (e.g. “I AM A PROPONENT OF SINGLE PAYER HEALTHCARE”) these words are being disinformationaized by the evil conservatives. LOL.
Translation of Jake’s propaganda: Don’t believe your lying eyes.

Isn’t it wonderful how everybody in this administration suddenly disavows their views once they come to light.
Obama started it with his racist “church” and views. Obama science czar who wants to sterilize some populations thru the water and now, Dr. Mengele, Mr. “Social Justice medicine” Emmanuel. Great job of getting some of the sickest people alive into position of powers, you leftist twits.
I suspect that Emmanuel’s “conversion” was caused because people finally actually noticed that he was nuts, as well as someone pointed out to him that withholding treatment from “non-productive” would decimate Obama’s Welfare Nation of freeloaders which make up the core of these communist supporters.

Their level of arrogance is disgusting and insulting.
Posted by: ILona English | Aug 14, 2009 8:58:43 AM
And yet you’re the one claiming to know what someone believes to the core of their being, despite their lives’ work in public service? Does that not strike you as sickeningly arrogant and overstepping?

That’s so sweet, Jake. “Thoroughly discredited.” I think what’s been thoroughly discredited is the claim that these discussions are “purely voluntarily,” and that the bill claiming to be about reducing medical costs includes provisions that mandate doctors behave as rather pushy lawyers.
What’s been lost in this debate is that all the issues surrounding cost and rationing are a result of asking the government to pay for our medical services. You know we don’t have to be obsessed with what other people do in their private lives if we simply stop obsessing about how everyone “has” to have medical insurance.
There are only 12 million Americans who don’t have insurance and can’t afford it. We can set up an environment that will assist those 12 million without having the government take control over the rest of us.
Jake, no honest person would read the writings of Zeke Emanuel and come away thinking that he was simply stating what might happen. He is clearly advocating in his June 2008 JAMA article that doctors not take their Hippocratic Oath so literally and he is clearly advocating that a universal health care system ration care to those that are “unproductive.”
His views are cold, impersonal and heartless.

However, on April 16th 2008, then Gov. Sarah Palin endorsed some of the same end of life counseling she now decries as a form of euthanasia. In a proclamation announcing “Healthcare Decisions Day,” Palin urged public facilities to provide better information about advance directives, and made it clear that it is critical for seniors to be informed of such options:
WHEREAS, Healthcare Decisions Day is designed to raise public awareness of the need to plan ahead for healthcare decisions, related to end of life care and medical decision-making whenever patients are unable to speak for themselves and to encourage the specific use of advance directives to communicate these important healthcare decisions. [...]
WHEREAS, one of the principal goals of Healthcare Decisions Day is to encourage hospitals, nursing homes, assisted living facilities, continuing care retirement communities, and hospices to participate in a statewide effort to provide clear and consistent information to the public about advance directives, as well as to encourage medical professionals and lawyers to volunteer their time and efforts to improve public knowledge and increase the number of Alaska’s citizens with advance directives.
WHEREAS, the Foundation for End of Life Care in Juneau, Alaska, and other organizations throughout the United States have endorsed this event and are committed to educating the public about the importance of discussing healthcare choices and executing advance directives.
Though this proclamation is now deleted from the Alaska governor’s website, it shows that Palin’s current fear-mongering is purely political. Palin is not the only conservative leader completely flip-flopping on this issue. Merely months ago, Gingrich too endorsed end of life counseling. At a conference in April of this year, Gingrich said advance directives can “save money” while also helping to “decrease the stress felt by caregivers.”

Be sure to catch Noonan’s column in The Wall Street Journal online today. Simply brilliant and right on target with what is going on with Obama.

“Though this proclamation is now deleted from the Alaska governor’s website, it shows that Palin’s current fear-mongering is purely political. Palin is not the only conservative leader completely flip-flopping on this issue. Merely months ago, Gingrich too endorsed end of life counseling. At a conference in April of this year, Gingrich said advance directives can “save money” while also helping to “decrease the stress felt by caregivers.””
Of course. If the conservative “leadership,” and I use the term loosely, has demonstrated anything recently it’s that A) they know their followers are gullible enough to believe anything, and B) they will say absolutely anything, no matter how wrong or hypocritical or self-contradictory, to prevent the Democrats from making any progress whatsoever.
The Party of No has found a message so simple that even they can keep it straight: “Whatever the other guy is for, I’m against it!” Even if they were for it just a few weeks ago.

The end-of-life consultation provisions are half-baked, do far more than merely authorize payment for a service, and to address such a serious, live-or-death issue this way is the height of LEGISLATIVE AUDACITY.
The provisions say that a physician or other health care provider can execute an “order regarding life sustaining treatment” for a citizen, do not require a witness, and do not say whether or how the citizen can change or revoke the order later.
Can the citizen revoke the order regarding life sustaining treatment by his or her own act (by destroying it or written revocation), or does a physician have to be involved in the revocation? Do you have to wait 5 years before you can meet with the doctor to revoke it? Destroying the document is not always a safe remedy if there are other signed copies floating around.
A written revocation by the citizen would be a surer means of assuring that the citizen’s wishes are communicated and followed. Most or all states allow a citizen to revoke an “advance directive” (also known confusingly as a living will) by merely executing a written revocation or a new advance directive that says prior directives are revoked. Medical personnel do not have to be involved in or approve the revocation.
Mark
August 14, 2009

“The Democrat’s (sic) continuing war on Americans is absolutely stunning.
Obama, Pelosi and Reid actually believe that name calling, berating, lying, belittling and dismissing legitimate questions about the horrific, socialist Obama healthcare plan is the best strategy.
Wow.
Unbelievable stupity (sic) on the part of the Democrat’s (sic) — and the MSM — to continue trying to paint ordinary citizens as villians. (sic) But please — keep it up. It only serves to strengthens (sic) Americans (sic) resolve against the Obama administation. (sic)”
You’re pretty sic, Jackson. Hope you have good health insurance.

It is like it is Obama wants to be the grand ruler of the world and his followers Pelosi, Ried and the rest of the bunch of dummiesare pushing for anything he proposes. All of them suhould be run out of town on a broom.
The Emanuals should be in this group as well nothing but a bunch of lying wanna be’s. To those 54% back in Nov.4th I sure hope that you are enjoying your boy now.

Good for the Goose – your perception of the health care debate is not based in the reality the rest of us see everyday. The behavior you attribute to Obama, Pelosi, and Reid should actually be attributed to the Republican talking heads who are spreading misinformation and irresponsibly fanning the flames of ignorance and fear.

Alyson et al: I’ve previously read the articles, spending more time on the Lancet article because it was so horrifying. Not that care, at some points might be rationed (at times it must), but the criteria they found useful (there were two categories: “inadequate”, which means it’s not enough by itself, but can be a useful part of a decision-making process; and “flawed” which means they shouldn’t be used at all). I don’t have the article in front of me, but I recall that one of the criteria they found merely “inadequate” — which, again, means “useful” — was whether the person worked for ‘worthy social goals’ or some similar verbiage. That means that if the person sitting on the board has a different view than I on welfare, or abortion, or gay marriage, then I lose points! I also noticed that there was no consideration of “runs a business that employs many people”, which certainly stands in contrast.
Dr. Emanuel is also nearly as dishonest as his brother Rahm. He claims that the article was about “liver transplants”. In the opening paragraphs it mentioned “scarce medical interventions”, and did mention organ transplants and use of vaccines in short supply; but those were given as examples of scarce interventions, not a comprehensive list. I don’t recall specifically if it mentioned scarcity caused by scarcity of funds, facilities or physicians, but I certainly came away with the clear impression it applied to all of the above.
Tapper has done much better than most of the MSM since he got to the White House gig, but he occasionally still finds himself toting water for the left from time to time; and this is one of those times.

Joan, this Democratic president is trying to lift us up out of the deep dark pit your failure of a president put us in. He basically brought this country to its knees. If we had had four, or eight, more years of a Republican president, you could stick a fork in us because we’d be done. The Republican party needs to cull out the hateful old school leaders and develop an new philosophy that doesn’t involve hatred, fear, exclusion and personal attacks. It should involve inclusion, healthy debate, respect, fiscal responsibility and concern for the interests of the American people rather the big business and the wealthy 2%.

Despite Low Approval Voters Prefer Democrats in Congress
The latest Economist/You Gov poll finds congressional job approval at a lowly 19% with a whopping 56% disapproving.
Politicaql Wire:
However, in a 2010 generic congressional ballot test, Democrats still lead Republicans by 10 points, 46% to 36%.
Steve Singiser: “If valid, this underscores how woeful the status of the GOP is at present, no matter the level of frustration voters may have with the progress on Capitol Hill.”

being considered…

We already have death panels staffed by insurance execs who decide level of coverage–or eligibility at all–for millions of Americans. I have been slated for early death by the current system being deemed unworthy of coverage at all based on a congenital blood pressure issue. These people who are holding up health care reform based on the idiocy of the Palin’s of this world are ignorant, selfish and downright cruel, not to mention deceitful. Really irritates me that many of them also claim to be Christian. To knowingly allow millions to suffer because of what amounts to political pandering is certainly something people who believe in judgment day should be rethinking.

Yes it is outrageous when someone tells the truth about the Dems evil plans for seniors

the ‘death panels’ issue, like the repeated lies for the Iraq invasion, is just another example of the depths the ‘right’ will sink to to regain power and achieve there aims.

Posted by: whiteroofcompliant | Aug 14, 2009 12:36:31 PM
The US system is based on cheap credit, cheap consumer goods, ever rising real estate prices and someone else always buying our debt. Manufacturing has gone overseas. This proposed “health care” plan is simply another one we can’t afford, just like those mortgages, cars, cell phones…

Posted by: RegularJoe | Aug 14, 2009 11:40:39 AM
As a regular Joe, does it occur to you that you’re missing the context of academic work. I think Dr. Emanuel explains it pretty well– you often have to look at the literature– the body of literature in which academics respond to each other– to understand the full context.
But hey, you all keep it up. It does wonders for your intellectual reputation. Sorry to get snippy, but it’s really frustrating to try to talk to some of the commenters on here as if they have any interest in actually understanding the situation. It’s all smoked baloney.

Palin is sort of like Typhoid Mary; she’s at the epicenter of – in this case – the plague of misinformation and just below the surface violence that’s spreading through the unprotected population. Had her followers been inoculated by either logic or education, they wouldn’t be succumbing to and spreading the imbecility that seems rampant in the easily led. Ignorance is NOT bliss. Being ignorant is to be prey to every rumor that stirs fear. Being ignorant is being a tool for anyone with an agenda who knows that the majority of voters are not on their side, but thinks panicking large numbers of vulnerable people will win the day for them.

what is so incredibly sad about this insanity exhibited by Ms. Palin and the pack that follows her is that health care is being rationed. people are being denied lifesaving care. happening every day here is the good ole USA.

I am sorry, but Palin should have been impeached in Alaska.
The govt. and insurance co.s know there are thousands of unnecessary procedures performed every day. Why do they not go after those Dr.s and hospitals? They know pharmaceutical companies charge American consumers 10 times as much for the same drugs as they charge in other countries, why not do something about it?

To: Blue Skies | Aug 14, 2009 4:00:51 PM. Did you copy that post from somewhere?
What makes you believe people “hate Sarah Palin because she is pretty”? She’s by far the best looking woman in national politics.
True, many people don’t like Sarah Palin. We watched her actions during the election. Like John McCain, we discovered no political principle or personal relationship is more sacred than her own ambition. His selection of Palin as a running mate turned out to be seriously poor judgment for a man whose courage we admire. Even my Navy Pilot husband couldn’t bring himself to vote for the Republican ticket. And many of us who are Working Mothers, think it stinks that Palin used her kids as props.
You are clueless to believe progressive minded people have Ivy League degrees – in fact I graduated from the same University as Sarah. So based on a similar college background, I was stunned by her deep ignorance about most aspects of foreign and domestic policy.
And when Sarah Palin makes misinformed statements about “death panels”, yeah, that is frightening. However, you may recall in America, it’s OK to disagree. When I attack her position as wrong, does that mean I’m “pouting, bitter, lonely, insecure, or jealous?” Hardly. I’m folksy and genuine and even know how to gut fish.
Like Wlater Hickel, former 2 term Alaska governor who has washed his hands of Palin, I too “don’t give a damn what she does.”

…” If the end of life provision is voluntary the why have it the bill? ” …
So Medicare will fund it dope. Grandma ain’t doing it if it costs her Social Security.
Go to Politico Arena … watch every Conservative talking noggin turn their back on Palin!!! She’s so tough she posts on facebook. Just ask that moron a question

To delegate control of your health care choices to the government and consequently some Orwellian panel of bureaucrats is to guarantee the inevitability of “end of life choices’ being decided by these same faceless bureaucrats. I would rather have access to an enterprise that competes in the free marketplace and therefore remains subject to civil action and the laws of a disgruntled consumer than to try and redress a grievance with the bureaucracy of an omnipotent government – Good Luck with that!
The driving force of this debate is based on cost, and if you are trying to cover the uninsured how do you do that without cutting services elsewhere. The answer is you don’t! There will have to be rationing, as I a Canadian, I can assure you it is the only answer. You can try playing the shell game with the various income streams and levies, but you constantly come back to end of life issues and the costs involved. It is the only solution that will address the aging population bomb that’s about to be dropped on the entire Health Care sector. But here’s the rub … these are the people who have been paying into the system for the last 40-50 years, and I wouldn’t want to be the administration that tells them – “Sorry Folks!… but there just isn’t anything in the Cookie Jar for you”! This is the Pandora’s Box that has been opened.

There is ONE thing that Obama is NOT lying about with his Health Care Plan..there are no “Death Panels”.
We DON’T call them “Death Panels”…but what do you think a Denial of Care Claim is? DUH!! Just as Obama said…their will be a committee to determine “effective treatment”… what do you think the term “effective treatment” means in insurance language?
So If you are 75 years old with cancer…should we give you chemo or radiation? What if there is only a 70% chance that you will survive…is this treatment “effective”? What if the odds are 50%? Where is the “cut off” that the treatment is NOT effective?
What if you are in a coma…how long will the govt. public option care for you?? one year? two? When is it NOT effective to care for you? If you are 89 years old…should the govt. pay for a new knee for you? Would that be effective?
Do you really think that the govt. public option (which we WILL be forced into…according to the CBO and ALL NONPARTISAN Research groups!) is going to spend an UNLIMITED amount of money on a person? Keep dreaming.
So we don’t call them “death panels”…we just call them “Effective Treatment Committees”!

Sarah Palin is like Joan of Arc in the healthcare battle. Forcing the weak-kneed opposition to stand up and fight. It will be interesting to see how appreciative Americans respond when they realize she has single handedly saving their private insurance plans from falling victim to a government take over.
Obama’s approval rating has fallen to 47% and the Republicans now lead the generic ballot by 5 points (dems led by 7 during the 2008 election). Thank you Sarah, you are an inspiration to me.

I can’t believe how anyone can, in all seriousness, keep repeating the lie about death panels in the health care debate.
It can’t be because they don’t speak or understand English. It must be because they simply enjoy being at odds with whoever is in office.
I have seen only a couple of news reports about the town hall meetings but the people who seem to be making the most noise have the least to say, but they just keep repeating it over and over, as if saying it 5-10 times in a row will make it so.
Health care for (Around 94 percent of non-elderly residents (those not covered by Medicare, which kicks in at age 65) would be covered) isn’t going to be any cheaper if we wait to see if more Republicans get into office. It never has been cheap.

“Obama’s approval rating has fallen to 47%“
So says Rasmussen. According to today’s Gallup poll, Obama’s approval rating is up one point to 54%.

I am appalled at the tactics taken by the Obama administration to demonize anyone who disagrees with them on healthcare. It is down right frightening when the press is their willing accomplice. I voted for Obama because he campaigned on the notion that he would bring bipartisanship to the debate. yet, at every turn he attacks anyone who engages in the debate. I do not support his plan for healthcare. That does not make me a racist, or a nazi, or a right winger. I do not believe the government can provide the same quality of care, the same access, and at do so at even close to the price we pay today. Healthcare is too important to push through without consultation from the American people. I am profoundly disappointed in the direction of this administration.

I can understand why Sarah Palin is fighting so fervently against the Obama health plan. It will pose a risk to the brain dead. She has reason to worry.

James wrote: “Sarah Palin 1 – Obama 0
The provision was removed from the senate bill. Obama and his cronies caved to girl.”
It was Republican Sen. Grassley and cronies who caved, not Obama et al. And the end-of-life provision was removed from the Senate version of the bill, not from HR 3200. That’s the bill that has Sarah “Death Panel” Palin so up in arms.

Shifty talk by Dr. Death. You see, though he plans to eliminate testing to save money, but this directly effects care quality. The amount of testing has been driven up by law suits, which the democratic party will not limit. So lets put the squeeze on everybody but say oh no we don’t want people to die from undected probems.

If it’s so outrageous, why did the Senate remove the death panel provisions for the current bill?

The difference between rationing and determining “waste” and “unnecessary services” is a semantic line that doesn’t eliminate the concept. Determining where “savings can be made” and cutting benefits are one in the same. The “advisory” councils that would give “suggestions” on effective treatment, and the council that would set reimbursement rates for government programs are functions of rationing.
The administration says that insurance companies already ration, and they don’t want this to happen. They say that they don’t want government to do it either, but in reality the only way that they can impose these “savings” are in govenment plans.

Emanuel is a liar, what about the papers he has written about end of life and limiting care because older Americans are not so valuable. Did we not contribute to this country for years. Emanuel is a typical left winger who lies when he is confronted with the truth, he is as, if not more dangerous than his terrible brother Rahm. um I wonder what their parents are like?

Doth the doctor protest too much. He shouldn’t have written the article if he didn’t want the heat. Under ideal conditions this would never happen. However, after Obama spends us into the poor house there will have to be rationing and this is a fact. Even if this Obamacare bill doesn’t become a reality we are still faced with all of Obamas expensive, unpopular programs. I see another bank has failed so tighten your belts cause we could be right back to square one all over again if something isn’t done. It’s time for someone to be held accountable and soon.

Take a long walk on a short pier after taking an aspirin. Then call me in the morning! LOL!

Idahogirl888,thank you for posting the information on Dr. Emanuel’s views, clarifying he was referring to making choices when there is a scarcity, such as organs for transplant or flu vaccines. Once again, those on the far right have taken words and twisted them to suit their views that those in our government are without morals. I kind of figured their views were skewed way off the truth since they’ve done it so many times before.
When you follow where many of their ‘experts’ come from, they are often from organizations that are funded by the corporations making big profits from the way things are and wanting this to continue at the expense of our health and our wallets.

All I want is for all these big talkers like Obama, Emanuel, all in Congress and Unions to sign up for this gov’t program. Why should ANYONE be excluded. When you exclude you are discriminating.
Step up boys be the first in this wonderful new system you propose.

Socialism uses the basis of capitalist infrastructure. It requires the leadership by an organized and conscious by , of and for the working class, which is organized as a ruling class. Nationalization affects a minority in favor of the vast majority. Small businesses and small farmers are not nationalized. The work week is reduced, with annual paid vacations, free medical care, free schoosl including university and equality for women. Students will choose their own careers and receive the education and training for it. Upon graduation, they will be guaranteed a job in their area of study. Unemployment is done away with, workers cannot be fired, the State pays pensions and disability compensation, homelessness is done away with, rent is less than 5% of income, all debts are canceled. The goals of a socialist society are: a life free of exploitation, insecurity, poverty, and end to unemployment, hunger and homelessness, and end to racism, national oppression. Renewal and extension of democracy; an end to private ownership of the wealth of our Nation. Affirmative action will be expanded immediately. Political power will be in the hands of the working people. Corporations and banks, the energy industry and all natural resources come under the ownership of the working class. Under socialism, productions increases, science and technology are advanced, and the environment is protected. Poverty will be ended with the recovery of the vast resources now wasted in war production, corporate profits and the extravagant lifestyles of the super rich. We have a highly developed industrial society with a trained work force. Free from foreign intervention, socialism will not have to divert human resources to defend itself.There will be no rationale for wars of intervention and world wars. The military is turned into a people’s militia under the control of the working class. War propaganda will be outlawed. This is the reality today in Socialist countries. What people call Orwellian is not socialism- there were certain conditions in which the Soviets were attacked by the Nazis which put socialism on a war footing. With spies everywhere, the Soviets had to be cautious. Those days are over and have nothing to do with socialism in real life today.

One just has to google the radical Dr.Death to know where he’s coming from….he makes Nazi Germany look like Sesame Street!He would deprive handicapped infants, children and adults of care because of their inability to contribute to society!
All this to save the socialist system a couple of trillion!This is a medical advisor to the president in America???Or maybe I should say,”Amerika”

If Palin is so inocuous, why is the left so rabid when she speaks ? Me thinks they doth protest too much, not for Palin’s words, but for the weakness
of their own arguments.

Why, Dr. E… you are sooo smart and we are sooo stupid! Of course, when you stated people who are not socially productive should not necessarily receive medical treatment… you really didn’t MEAN it… yeah, right!
The Obama administration is full of LIARS!