Reform on the Ropes? Get Fired Up.

uh hey Obama your radicals are firing us up

We have been Fired Up. Why does the Media always present The public option as the under dog. I always thought with over 50% the debate was over. I guess it takes at least 8 out of 10 voters before any Change can happen. In the mean time the 4 out of 10 get to make the rules and poke at the rest of us. That’s the same predicament our Pot Laws are in now.

Today the President seemed to be practically egging on his conservative critics. “I’ve got a question for them: What’s your answer? What’s your solution? The truth is, they don’t have one. It’s do nothing.”
You know, making your own case is fine. Telling this tired old lie over and over again is pathetic and should be beneath the president. Can’t he at least farm out the lying.
Here’s three ideas that POTUS does NOT support. 1) tort reform 2) insurance sold over state lines 3) federal gov’t negotiating drug prices. Why not engage in a actual discussion and tell us why you are against these ideas?

Radicals? whatever buddy. I think we all seen at those town hall meetings who the REAL radicals and Buffoons are. The far Right(Conservative Values)gets mean and Nasty and the far left(Peace and heath care?) gets way to submissive. If this was a Real democratic country Heath care with the public option would have been passed already. Instead we are wasting are time arguing with the 40 something percent that LOST the elections and are immune to common sense.

We had two years of campaigning and now Obama is back at it again.
His security blanket.
Good grief go back on vacation.

The point is Obama has no backbone.
His favorite position is straddling the fence.
Make a decision and stick to it for God’s sake, instead of all of these mixed messages.
Obama doesn’t even know who to be mad at because he has disappointed all sides with his lack of leadership.

“The “speech” to the union gangs was embarrassing…I’m embarrassed to be American if this is how we are represented. What a fool.’
___________________________________
Yeah right . . . you have selective amnesia . .. you have forgotten the embarassment from the last President and his inability to complete a sentence.
Do you remember Bush joking about how maybe the weapons of mass destruction were hidden under his desk – after thousands had died in looking for them in Iraq?
That was embarrassment. There is not comparison whatsoever.

julieterra – no one has forgotten the embarrasing things said and done by past presidents. That doesn’t mean we can’t be embarrassed by the current one. And he has given us plenty of opportunities. Google Obama and teleprompter, for starters.

How about the flip side ABC? How many people gathered this holiday in protest, not campaign, for the all ready elected ones? How about the majority of Americans and what they are saying, feeling, and dealing with this trickle down nothingness.

“ulieterra – no one has forgotten the embarrasing things said and done by past presidents.|
____________________________________
You wouldn’t even be making up nonsense about the current President if you really remembered the embarrassment of the Republican George Bush.

So I am supposed to forgive this president when he is a horrible embarrassment because the last president was one too?
That makes sense to you?
Not that I forgot the things Bush did that was good and bad.

“Look at that! He’s asking young people to listen to their parents and work hard at school! Communist! Evil, evil Obama!”
OH that’s just silly he is not a communist.
He just hires them to work for the United States govt.
JFK would just love that he had a ‘special’ place in his heart for communists.
That would be unrepentant Markings Anarchist flavor of Communists.

Obama is spineless. Is single payer a must or not? Great rhetoric will not gain him anything. Pathetic blaming Bush by Obama or posters only makes him look weaker.
There are better ideas but they will never be given serious consideration by Dem leaders or the MSM. Actually, no bill is better than the horrendous bill(s) now under consideration.
Foghorn Leghorn | Sep 7, 2009 4:05:40 PM has better ideas. They are a good starting point.

quote: “The President gave a bit of a preview of that address today: “We’ve been fighting for quality, affordable health care for every American for nearly a century-since Teddy Roosevelt. The Congress and the country have been engaged in a vigorous debate for many months. And debate is good, because we have to get this right. But every debate at some point comes to an end. There comes a time to decide, a time to act. And Ohio, it’s time to act and get this thing done!”"
Not the slightest hint of a justifiable reason to support Obamacare. Just more of the same.

Mr. Obama seems to blame everything and everyone but himself.

“He takes advantage of this opportunity to underline the major preventative measures regarding health concerns and the potential flu outbreak – and you ridicule him for it.
Oh that’s right. Teachers and parents are not capable of instructing the children of washing their hands.
Our leader has to do it too.
Can you say useless redundant govt waste.
Don’t you know that would be the CIA, Police, Seniors, Businesses. They are the stupid ones in this brave new Obama world we find ourselves in. I know I know a dozen or so jews in my apartment that were ‘forced’ out of the USSR years ago that find this president a real pip. (not the same word they use but I’ll keep this clean)

See how the media portrays Obama as only interested in the health of Americans insofar as it impacts his legacy?
This is an extreme example of projection – the media is so elite, so out of touch, and so shallow and privileged that they can’t conceive of a world in which government does things because they are needed and politicians advocate on behalf of the people they represent.

More rhetoric, hopefully someday soon we will hear facts and figures. Give us some meat Mr President , not just greasy fried taters. Not that there is anything wrong with greasy fried taters, I like fried taters. just a little tired of the grease.

On an unrelated note.
I actually like you, Mr. Tapper.
But what is up with the sort of lazy journalism you’ve been up to lately?
Basically, I get the sense that you have internalized a lot of the partisan criticism.
Health care reform is not getting more controversial by the day. Obama’s critics are just getting more shrill. They look around and see each other thumping their chests… and then try to out do each other.
To treat this sort of basic behavior as though it is the bottom line on health care reform is irresponsible.
Each day, millions of Americans depend on journalists to cut through the noise and deliver a clear picture of the news. And it breaks my heart to think that beltway journalists like yourself, who have NOTHING to gain or lose in the health care debate, are setting the agenda for people outside of Washington. People who go bankrupt when they are visited by a catastrophic illness…. people who run to the ER when their baby is 103 degrees… people like my own father, who had to wait until his illness paralyzed him and he ended up on disability, before he could go to the doctor.
Why do you call health care “controversial”? It’s only controversial to a minority of Americans who get their news from a single source (Rush Limbaugh) who happens to be bankrolled by narrow, elite special interests…. who could care less about ABC news and Jake Tapper…. why do you let these people dictate whether or not Health Care Reform is controversial.
It’s time to get out in the street and start talking to people. If you did this, you’d know that health care reform is NOT controversial.

I love Obama pretending to be tough on WallStreet bonuses.
He signed a bill without reading it that gave millions in bonuses to fatcats on Wall Street.
Then pretended to be furious about it.
The fatcat CEO’s love Obama.

“Parents are afraid the president might give a speech that will tell kids to work for him and support him”
_______________________________________
You should rephrase that to be more accurate . . .
“The fanatical Republican right was afraid the president might give a speech that will tell kids to work for him and support him” . ..
There, now you’re being factual.

Obama’s behavior on the campaign trail is very unpresidential.
Does Obama realize he is president?
He seems to dump everything in Nancy’s lap while he has fun campaigning on our dime.
Obama you’re the president!!!
Taunting, mocking, campign cheers are kind of juvenille for a president.

“You remember the seniors that demographic that have LONG memories and vote and vote consistently more than any other demographic.”
_____________________________________
That’s why the Democratic party is planning on killing off all the seniors with their ‘death panels’. See they’re not so dumb after all.

—
“The fanatical Republican right was afraid the president might give a speech that will tell kids to work for him and support him” . ..
There, now you’re being factual.
—
If Obama (or any president, really) were to give a speech like that, would you be concerned?
Remember, when this started (with parents voicing concern, not the “fanatical Republican right”), the text of the speech was not available, but the materials prepared by the Dept. of Ed. were, and they were indeed phrased in terms of supporting the president.
That is, the available evidence suggested just this kind of indoctination. Yes, it is not a bulletproof case that the president’s speech would be much the same, but is it really so wild a thing to think it would be, and to express concern about it?
Some of you people seem to think that parents are just nuts for having reasonable concerns about the education of their children.

“That’s why the Democratic party is planning on killing off all the seniors with their ‘death panels’. See they’re not so dumb after all.”
That asinine oversimplification goes over real well with seniors too. My moms friends were not insulted at all that that is the reason said over and over again why the seniors are not for the Dems plans.
As for the pediatricians that is absolutely true.
The AMA supporting the presidents plan. You are aware number of MDs that are members of the AMA the number of retired non practicing physicians, those that are strictly academics?
Compare that number to the number of MDs actually practicing medicine.
You would think that the AMA is big ‘catch’ for the president. Sounds good though. I’ll let you get those numbers you don’t seem to trust me. Its fine you should not trust what anyone tells you anyway and should verify information from creatable independent sources. And for goodness sakes don’t believe what you see on TV I think the young voters didn’t learn that tidbit of wisdom yet.

“I don’t recall that Obama’s remarks on the subject involved a pill, but he did in fact suggest that doctors would perform operations such as tonsillectomies for profit motive.|
__________________________________
Exactly, there was no pill. And I would ask, are you really naive enough to think doctors aren’t interested in making money? And that they might not just order the procedure because it’s what they’ve been indoctrinated into doing, its simple and it pays?
Medical procedures change as time goes by, and different approaches become more or less sensible as more research comes on stream.

“Exactly, there was no pill. And I would ask, are you really naive enough to think doctors aren’t interested in making money? And that they might not just order the procedure because it’s what they’ve been indoctrinated into doing, its simple and it pays?
Medical procedures change as time goes by, and different approaches become more or less sensible as more research comes on stream.”
Physicians love to be told they are in it for profits. As far as being indoctrinated into doing certain procedures. Oh, they have no free will now?
My sister was married to a surgeon by the way and although she is divorced she is still in the health care field. Funny thing is when the nursed find out she was married to a MD they open up a lot more than when you are just a patient. Not to there are no MDs and nurses are Obama supporters but not as many as you might think anymore.

Passion and specifics have been missing from the president’s side of the reform debate. We’ll probably get both on Wednesday and in the next few months.

Reform on the Ropes?
I have been out of state (a blue state) for almost two weeks with people I don’t know. Several just verbalized without knowing my positions on health care and Obama’s leadership in general. Everyone expressed fear of where Obama is leading this country. Absolutely no one, in a similar way, volunteered their affirmation of anything related to Obama.
Just anticdotal coincidence, I don’t think so.
Reform on the Ropes? I’d say so.

“Darn, I posted a long response on this but it disappeared somewhere.”
There is widespread speculation that moderators here sometimes delete posts. Has anyone seen this confirmed? Or what the criteria might be for axing a comment?
Anyway, if you disagree with my interpretation of what Obama said, okay. But I watched the speech, and I was stunned when he said it, and far from alone in my interpretation.

“Obama suggested that they act unethically to do so by performing unnecessary surgeries.”
___________________________________
I think what Obama was intending to do was to call the system into taking a good, thorough look at procedures that are routinely prescribed when there may well be alternatives just as effective and not as taxing on the system financially. I think he was trying to say tonsillectomies may be too routinely prescribed, because they’re simple and no thought is given to the costs. The can just be billed.
Obama has made several comments to this effect, another was on the diabetes preventative treatments and the cost of amputation.
These FEW comments have certainly seemed harsh about certain doctors – implying they slip too easily into ‘routine’ because its simple and its billable. He meant to call the system into taking a more thorough look at itself. I think you’re right that it came off the wrong way.

Sure but pediatricians would rather not do surgery on a child if they don’t have to. It is not their first of perfected choice as it is.
Surgery is risky and on a child or sick person even more so.
That he uses surgery as an example of cost cutting is not the smartest example.
Prevention is not always cheaper as treatment. Think about it to screen for disease you have to do tests. More than one credible study shows the mass screening are no cheaper than treatment without mass screenings (it is better for the patient but not cheaper for the system as a whole)
Obesity and smoking. Good luck with that. How many people already are trying to quit smoking and diet. He speaks as if people are not working on these problems. Makes as much sense as taxing soda to fight obesity. Go to grocery store and take note what type of soda most overweight if not obese people drink .. its diet soda already.

“Sure but pediatricians would rather not do surgery on a child if they don’t have to.”
______________________________
I think you missed my point. Medical protocols change. Some things that became ‘routine’ in the past are not routine anymore. If what you have is a hammer, you tend to see everything as a nail.
Again, I don’t think it was well done at all – but I believe the intention was to call everybody within the system to task – to attempt to look again at ‘routine’ procedures, easy and billable, and to make sure those procedures are the best and really necessary.
I consider the TWO negative doctors comments two of his rare gaffes, missteps. He surely succeeded in peeving some doctors, but he may also have caused some worthwhile, additional, self reflection in ‘the system’. The tendency of SOME doctors to see themselves as untouchable elitists and minor gods is well documented throughout the years. I don’t mind them having their cages rattled – but I’m not sure it played out well for Obama.

“there are far more Democrat trial lawyers”
_____________________________________
There are TONS of Republican trial lawyers, don’t kid yourself.

“The tendency of SOME doctors to see themselves as untouchable elitists and minor gods is well documented throughout the years. I don’t mind them having their cages rattled – but I’m not sure it played out well for Obama.”
True but you can’t regulate greed and those that want to scam the system do not care what the rules are anyway. Prosecute criminal MDs I’m all for that.
You don’t need health care reform for that but stricter regulation enforcement or more investigation or other measures that can be passed outside of any health care bill.
I think the president has not done a good job of explaining exactly what his priorities are.

“Olympia Snowe (R-Maine), who has indicated she would support a government-sponsored option that would be “triggered” if private insurers do not meet certain standards.”
Ms. Snowe, we cannot wait anymore. We need the reform now. The CEOs of the insurance companies are denying claims (even though people have been paying their premiums); people are dying because insurance companies deny their claims; they do not sell insurance to people with preexisting conditions. And our premiums increase every year and our deductibles as well. My deductible last year was $1,500. This year is $2,000. Next year, who knows? So, the status quo is not acceptable. Let’s have health insurance reform this year.

julieterra,
The Republicans, during the past 8 years, were busy with George W. Bush to approve funding to attack Iraq. The Republicans believe the following: If we create wars, we will not invest in the American people. That is why every time we have a Republican president in the White House and Republicans in Congress, they want to attack a country. That means money spent overseas = money not invested in the American economy or we do not have money for health insurance reform. That is why Republicans always create wars. They do not want to help Americans. Republicans and CEOs of the insurance companies are the same. They are killers.

Hey, I saw that speech in msnbc and the networks crappy subtext glorifying all the snake oil that was being sold. But here’s the real deal: it was a room chock-a-full with still-swooning supporters; and to me it just appeared like a huge flock of sheep bleating to the Messaih’s tune.

If this is so important to the Republicans, why didn’t they accomplish this during the years when they had majorities in both houses and the Presidency?
Posted by: julieterra |
Incompetence and inability to get 60 votes.

moderate . .
If TORT reform is so important to the Republicans, why didn’t they accomplish this during the years when they had majorities in both houses and the Presidency?
Lack of will? Inability to compromise politically? Because so many of them are lawyers? They forgot?

Julieterra, I have no idea why the Republicans did not make tort reform a higher priority. That was a failing on their part, to be sure. Does that mean it is then acceptable for the Democrats to follow suit in ignoring the issue? Or to ridicule the Republicans for not having any ideas when in fact several Republicans have suggested tort reform (and lots of other good health care/insurance reform ideas) this year.
As I recall, the main argument I get from REpublicans when I ask the same question you did– why didn’t they do it sooner– is that tort reform is a state issue and there have been state-level efforts toward reform, most notably by Republicans in Texas. I don’t buy the argument, but acknowledge that some states have experimented with tort reform and that was probably driven by republicans in many cases.
I would also remind you that one REpublican did try to push tort reform in the Bush administration– George W Bush himself. He didn’t get any measurable support from Congress, but not for lack of trying. President Obama is not the first guy to discover that having a majority in both houses does not necessarily guarantee your proposals will sail through Congress.
Bush did launch HSAs, a wonderful advance in insurance, so at least he made some progress in health insurance reform. Later he got a prescription drug benefit for seniors. Maybe Obama should try a similarly incremental approach and perhaps he can score more legislative victories in this field than Bush did.

Julieterra, I have no idea why the Republicans did not make tort reform a higher priority. That was a failing on their part, to be sure. Does that mean it is then acceptable for the Democrats to follow suit in ignoring the issue?
____________________________________
No it doesn’t mean that, it means Republicans for all their talk of ‘small government’ doubled the national debt; Republicans despite all their talk of TORT reform didn’t accomplish it – it means basically that Republicans are a lot better at huffing and puffing and making a lot of noise when they’re out of office than actually doing anything about it when they’re in.

Liza, I was hoping the moderators would pull your post in which you wrote, “They do not want to help Americans. Republicans and CEOs of the insurance companies are the same. They are killers.” But they have not. So I will respond.
I have been a Republican all my adult life (and in my teens as well, to the consternation of my deeply Democratic parents). I have known a lot of Republicans and a fair share of CEOs, although no insurance company CEOs. Neither group deserves your inane denunciation as killers.
Yes, Republicans want to help people, as do Democrats. In general, Republicans have a different philosophy about how that help should be done. We tend to emphasize the role of the private sector and of charity, rather than the role of government. I, for example, am very involved in volunteer work in my community, give generously to a variety of charities, privately (and often anonymously) provide assistance to individuals (family members and students, primarily), and advocate for charities and volunteerism in my roles as a professor and business owner. Yet you, who do not even know me, dismiss me as a killer.
I know, you’ll argue that you are referring to Republican politicians. But the point is the same. Politicians are people, too, and have the same mix of motivations, strengths, and weaknesses as anyone else.
I would not dream of making assumptions about Democrats in general based on my interactions with you on this site (and perhaps I should not even presume that you are a Democrat), or of making accusations about your morals or motivations. I would ask you do not jump to conclusions about me, or Republicans in general, either.

BTW, it’s about time for another “crisis.”
Watch.

SOCIALISM lol

“By the People for the People”
___________________________________
More like “By the People for the Wealthy”.

“Tort Reform”
Why do radical right wingers start talking “tort reform” when we’re talking about health care?
People don’t want more tortes, they just make you fat and ruin your health.

We do need health care reform in America, but there is a right way — and a wrong way — to go about it.
President Obama and Congressional Democrats want a government-run health care system that puts a Washington bureaucrat between American families and their doctors.
Their first thought was to try to rush a bill to the White House before Congress left Washington for August recess, and now we know why.
The American people have had a chance to read for themselves what President Obama and his Democrat allies in Congress intend for our health care and have been letting them know, loud and clear, in townhall meetings and national polls, that they don’t like it at all.

Danny, there is also the Empower Patients First Act from the Republican Study Group, led, as I recall, by Tom Price of Georgia, who is an orthopedic surgeon.
However, the Republicans are in the minority and a bill written by Republicans alone does not have a snowball’s chance of advancing in either house.
And despite the president’s constant refrain that his ‘opponents’ want to keep the status quo and have no suggestions for reform, that is demonstratively not true. Yet they are, for all intents and purposes, shut out of the process by democratic leaders in Congress, as well as by the White House. The Gang of Six is the lone bipartisan group working on the issue, as far as I can see.
The president says he welcomes ideas from any source, but I do not see him having conference calls with leading republicans as he had last week with various democratic groups in congress.
I do not see him sitting down with Enzi and Price and Cantor to talk about common ground. Seems like that would be a good starting point. Maybe they could have a beer summit?

Get rid of special intrest groups. The very first group to get rid of to save the health care system is LAWYERS and then include all Republicans in Talks. If these two things do not happen then it only means the Democrates ARE LYING about REFORM of the healthcare of this country!!!! Do these two things and I can give the Democrates some credability in there words if not my begining statement is nothing more or nothing less than the TRUTH!!!!!

You can choose to change insurance companies. OK, so you are lucky enough to be part of the elite, rather than the rest of us, who get whatever our employer cut a deal with. I am happy for you.
And, you are rich enough to be able to get health care without insurance. Thats great, most of us are too poor to get full health care even with insurance. You are a very lucky person indeed.
I am glad though, that you don’t agree with the ‘tort reformers’ and want to keep your right to file a lawsuit. You should be advised though that you can also sue the government, and also get to elect their bosses.
Although I suppose with your wealth, you could probably afford to buy a majority share in your insurance company and get them to change that way.
I wish the other 99% of Americans were as lucky as you are.

Giving insurance companies the ability to sell policies across state lines would indeed save costs. It is a great way of further rationing health care, because the insurance companies can look for the state with the least consumer protections and register there. That way, they can provide very minimal benefits to people in every state. For example, they could sell policies that don’t contain maternity benefits.

This has quite simply become a matter of Obama vs. The People. He now knows that the people do not want him to do what he is proposing to do about their health care, but he is more than willing to do it anyway because he thinks he knows better than they do what is best for them. This is no leadership, and it is not a recipe for a successful presidency.
Those who prefer goverment bureaucrats to privat ones should tell us their favorite stories about seeking redress against public ones. What is the most successful instance of an aggrieved person seeking monetary damages against the wrongs of a public bureaucrat?
Please tell us why it is that you prefer the treatment and service you get upon walking into the Post Office to that which you get at the UPS Store.
Compare and contrast your experiences with your DMV and your local AAA.

Hi, Danny! We’ll have to chat more later, as I am off to bed. But off the top of my head, I can’t say that there is a total package from any republicans that seems solid. Then again, I prefer to incremental change and am not a fan of massive bills that try to cover everything and the kitchen sink even when they stick to a single subject (like health care), esp because they inevitably acquire amendments that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
You wrote, btw, “As for solving the central issues of lowering costs and offering affordable coverage to everyone, I still haven’t heard any cohesive Republican plan that makes a lot of sense.” I don’t have a good answer to that at the moment, but I have a question– do you get a different answer if you put “Democrat” in place of “Republican” in that sentence? Because I have not heard a cohesive Democratic plan that actually addresses in a realistic way your twin concerns, either.

moderate wrote: “But we can all address our issues with a private health insurance company in ways we cannot address our issues with the US government.”
================================
Really? If you’re in the top 5% of income, perhaps you’re not exposed to how much people are limited by typical insurance policies.
I’ve spent months going around with my insurance company and if I didn’t work for a large company that had a health officer to intercede, I wouldn’t have gotten anything.
For example, I scheduled my eye exam for November every year since I was entitled to “one exam per year”. One year, BCBS said it was only 363 days between exams so they weren’t paying! Never mind that they’d paid in that situation multiple times before over the past couple decades. But if I hadn’t had a big employer to back me up, I’d have gotten nothing.
A Senior Aide of mine couldn’t play sports her senior year of high school because daddy’s insurance decided she didn’t need a second shoulder operation even though she walked in pain every day. She was gifted and talented, but skipped college and took a government job after graduation with NSA so she could get decent insurance to heal her shoulder.
If you look at government insurance in other countries, there’s no “network” to which you’re limited. You’re not “out of network” if you cross a state/province line. And you’re never stuck with the catastrophic costs thousands of Americans are hit with each year.

“This has quite simply become a matter of Obama vs. The People. He now knows that the people do not want him to do what he is proposing to do about their health care”
____________________________________
More bogus information from the right wing nonsense crowd.
Americans have supported the public option almost consistently for a long time, most recently . ..
CNN poll Sept 2/2009
“Now thinking specifically about the health insurance plans available to most Americans, would you favor or oppose creating a public health insurance option administered by the federal government that would compete with plans offered by private health insurance companies?”
Favor – 55%
Oppose – 41%
No opinion – 4%
===============
People are really sick of the political bickering, the telling of lies and they are distrustful of politicians in general – which may be understandable after the previous 8 years.
However, the majority support health care reform and they support the public option.

These poor dopes who honestly believe that the way to improve almost anything is to have the government take it over are so dumb that it’s tempting to simply let them have their way, and let generations of their descendants suffer the consequences.
The problem is that, like statists throughout history, they want to force everyone else to share the cost of their folly. It is tempting simply to denounce them unequivocally, but then our charitable impulses require us to remember that they’re so stupid they don’t know what harm they will inflict if they get their way.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena |
It evidently never occurs to them that government is as much or more to blame for the current situation as anyone.
We may get a bill but it won’t be real reform. If they don’t address pre-existing illness denial and lifetime caps then the pitchforks should come out. But make no mistake. Whatever they do will cost many trillions more than they will tell us and at the end of the day, most of the fundamental problems that plague our health care system will remain.

Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn:
“Thumbing their nose at the American people by ramming through a partisan bill would be the same thing as going to war without asking Congress’ permission,” he said. “You might technically be able to do it, but you’d pay a terrible price in the next election.”
so health care reform equals going to war in Iraq?
curious….. how odd this sounds coming from a Republican after 6+ years of Iraq……..

..they want to force everyone else to share the cost of their folly ….
Fascist Hyena
too bad we all have to share the billions spent on the folly of Iraq

I don’t need nor want the government getting itself involved in my insurance.

Now we’ll see Baucus present the plan for co-ops (another Trojan Horse for a public option) and taxes on “Cadillac” plans but no tax on the most Cadillac of Cadillac plans- Congress’ own health care plans.
They’re always above it all.
And until they’re bound by the same conditions as we common folk are, nothing should pass.

In his speech Wednesday, when Obama gets “forceful” about health care reform, he better condemn these villainous, immoral Blue Dogs:
—At least 23 House Democrats already have told constituents or hometown media that they oppose the massive healthcare overhaul touted by President Barack Obama.
If Republicans offer the blanket opposition they’ve promised, Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) can afford to lose only 38 members of her 256-member caucus and still pass the bill.
Most Democrats opposed to healthcare reform argue it costs too much, imposes a new tax and fines businesses that don’t provide insurance to employees. Some fear that the bill would subsidize abortion.—

“too bad we all have to share the billions spent on the folly of Iraq”
The Constitution provides, specifically, for a navy and an army in Article 1, Section 8. It does not provide for health care.

“I’ve got a question for them: What’s your answer? What’s your solution? The truth is, they don’t have one. It’s do nothing.”
The president should be called on this lie. There are many people offering ideas. Such as…
Instead of introducing a massive government-run health care plan, Congress should:
- Enact legislation giving families control of their health care by making insurance plans portable,
- Reform the tax system to allow the same tax incentives for all insurance purchasers (employers and the self employed should be able to deduct healthcare expenses),
- Reform the litigation system to decrease inappropriate malpractice and liability claims against all facets of the medical profession and industry in order to reduce costs.
- Allow the free market to deliver real competition.
President Obama appears to have selective hearing and selective amnesia on these matters.

“All of you who keep espousing the Bush/Iraq war….what do you think about Obama pushing more troops into Afganistan? This is Obama’s war now…I am curious what your thoughts are!! Especially since you people think we should not be in any wars at all!!”
Posted by: ross | Sep 8, 2009 8:39:34 AM
For most Libs, War without George W. Bush is just not war at all.
Really I thought that was gates job. We were already in Afgan the same as Iraq…last time I check. I dont agree…I still support him on Healthcare!

“…..You must have ran for office and no one elected you…..You need to look at why insurance companies need competition outside themselves”
Attack the messenger is getting old.
The US government was not set up to compete with private industry. You know that, but instead you offer up this nonsense.
The US government was not set up to take care of you from cradle to grave. Read the Constitution. You may be ready to abdicate your rights and your freedoms, but many of us are not.

Flash, ever think you don’t see the opposers of healthcare reform cause you’re watching the wrong tv station……there are plenty of voters against this healthcare bs, just not many stations will show it, try FOX, you know they’re not number 1 for no reason
Posted by: lyineyes1956 | Sep 8, 2009 9:37:59 AM
————————–
Wow! Interesting! Obviously we disagree, but interesting indeed. This political season has taught me much indeed. People truly see things differently. One thing though: I don’t necessarily think Fox is number one because it’s more popular. I think it’s because conservatives tend to flock to one place as opposed to liberals who have a tendency to be more diverse. In that instance, I have to give it to conservatives. Being organized can make it seem as though they’re in the majority. Just for the record, I truly think if everyone that could vote had voted, Democrats would dominate for a long time to come.

“…..You must have ran for office and no one elected you…..You need to look at why insurance companies need competition outside themselves”
Attack the messenger is getting old.
The US government was not set up to compete with private industry. You know that, but instead you offer up this nonsense.
The US government was not set up to take care of you from cradle to grave. Read the Constitution. You may be ready to abdicate your rights and your freedoms, but many of us are not.
Posted by: Pandemic | Sep 8, 2009 9:39:51 AM
In your words and the constitution………we do need, education/schools, police department, hospitals, consumer protect, environmental protect, veteran care…..Just the good ole private/corporate America drawing blood from the American people. You cant benefit from part of the package….and the throw the rest of it away! The government that we elected as a DEMOCRACY…..the majority wanted public option from the government….51%….So….public option is setup for the people….ask all your medicaid recepients they are all happy about. If you take away medicaid from seniors/veterns, you will have a lot of gray hairs tearing your door down!

Pandemic
In your words and the constitution………we do NOT need, education/schools, police department, hospitals, consumer protect, environmental protect, veteran care…..Just the good ole private/corporate America drawing blood from the American people. You cant benefit from part of the package….and the throw the rest of it away! The government that we elected as a DEMOCRACY…..the majority wanted public option from the government….51%….So….public option is setup for the people….ask all your medicaid recepients they are all happy about. If you take away medicaid from seniors/veterns, you will have a lot of gray hairs tearing your door down!

Especially since you people think we should not be in any wars at all!!
Posted by: ross | Sep 8, 2009 8:39:34 AM
***
Who is this addressed to? Democrats? I opposed the Iraq War because the preponderance of evidence and intelligence countered the faulty intelligence the Bush admin used to start a pre-emptive war. The catastrophic events of 9/11 were exploited to initiate the Wolfowitz doctrine, more or less, and condone torture. I do not oppose all war. In a dream world, I would. But we don’t live in a dream world. Your words seem to signify a real misunderstanding of other people– we don’t all see things as simply or as black and white as cut and dried as those with less flexibilty and nimbleness of thought.

-So far, the loudest voices, and the biggest crowds, are not from supporters. They are for the opposition……not the GOP….but rather the Citizens!-
Evildoers in Brooks Brothers suits! Haters! People who listen to Glenn Beck! Hail Obama, The Lightbringer! Free healthcare for everyone and puppy too! Green jobs and more troops in Afghanistan!

FIRED UP! READY TO GO!
FIRED UP! READY TO GO!
FIRED UP! READY TO GO!
FIRED UP! READY TO GO!
FIRED UP! READY TO GO!
FIRED UP! READY TO GO!
FIRED UP! READY TO GO!
FIRED UP! READY TO GO!
FIRED UP! READY TO GO!
FIRED UP! READY TO GO!

Fickle Americans! Vote Obama for health care reform then you become a coward. Secondly, your own Bush and his followers created this Great Recession with out of control tax cuts for his rich buddies, and you cry “Vote in Obama”, then you become a coward again. Republicans are a bunch of pure unadulturated cowards who are abusive, controlling, manipulating, intimidating, and frankly, not a nice bunch of people. They, Republicans, shout at, push down, hit on, spit towards, which means they didn’t develop well in their 3-5 years of life. Most come from controlling mothers or mom’s who couldn’t save their children from their father’s demise. These conservative Republicans and Republicans period are the worst of Americans. They need to be locked up to bring security to the rest of us Americans. These Conservative Republicans are cowards and they are extremely dangerous. We need police forces who will stand up to these Nazi tactics of Conservative Republicans and actually arrest these guys and gals. They are dangerous to our students at our public schools since they are teachers, principals, and superintendents. We are tired of them affecting our children’s lives at our public funded schools. Get them out of public education. Conservative Republicans are dangerous. Get them out of religion — they give real Christians bad reputations. Conservative Republicans need to be put away for life — they kill American citizens. Conservative Republicans are deadly and dangerous.

Fired Up!
Ready to Go!
Open minds, open hearts.
Imagine what we can accomplish,
if we work together!
Unite for America.
Support President Obama!
What is wrong with wanting our children to be educated and our people healthy?
Don’t cry deficiet! I don’t find it a valid argument to deny health care and education when you support WAR!

British officials claim Mr Obama and Mrs Clinton were kept informed at all stages of discussions concerning Megrahi’s return.
The officials say the Americans spoke out because they were taken aback by the row over Megrahi’s release, not because they did not know it was about to happen.

“Pandemic — you have the same disease since you identified the problem! Go get help Pandemic — we need you to get well so American will heal from stupid Republican disease.”
Why are lefties so quick to denounce dissent and criticism as “crazy”?
Hmmm…Mental instititions as a political device:
In some nations, such as North Korea, the former Soviet Union, East Germany, and Romania during Communist rule, mental hospitals were, and in some cases still are, used as sites for the stifling of political dissent or even genocide.
“We don’t want to care for you either”
I doubt you will. It sounds like you don’t pay taxes.
“Stop taking tax cuts for the rich and give back to middle America.”
Wow. I’m not rich but I sure would like to be someday.
“You are pathetic.”
I hope that makes you feel better. Have a great day.

Dehumanization is a psychological process whereby one views the other as less than human and thus not deserving of moral consideration.
Dehumanization makes the violation of generally accepted norms of behavior regarding one’s fellow man seem reasonable, or even necessary.

Pandemic, well put! Thanks for not returning ugliness with more ugliness.

Distortions!” Candidate Obama screamed, when charged with wanting a Canadian-style health-care system. All he wanted to do, Obama swore, was lower our costs and insure the uninsured. But then President Obama somehow demanded that a 1,000-page blueprint of a proposed government takeover of the nation’s health care be voted on before August recess — as if even one more month of treating patients the way we have for the last 100 years simply would be too much

I am pleased to see Republicans in Congress saying “no” to the Democratic plans that I have seen so far. But you have to work to ignore the republican efforts to make headway with their own reform ideas. There’s Tom Price and the Republican Study Group, with the Empowering Patients First Act. There’s Coburn, Burr, Ryan and Nunes with the Patients Choice Act of 2009. There’s Jim DeMint’s Health Care Freedom Act. Never heard of them? Well, for openers, democratic commmittee leaders aren’t debating them, scheduling votes on them , or working to incorporate their ideas into Democratic-sponsored legislation.
You also ignore Snowe, Enzi, and Grassley and their work with the “gang of six.” But hey, why let a few facts get in the way of your catchy put-downs, right?

-If FDR hadn’t placed the programs he did, we wouldn’t have the America we have today.-
Yeah, a bankrupt gov’t, broke USPS, bailouts to Wall St.

Win/Win — Republicans gave America the Great Depression, and Republicans gave America the Great Recession. Now what is it you don’t get. Democrats have always had to clean up after Republicans messes. These programs being set up are Republican Clean Up Acts in progress. Where did tax cuts go? — To The Wealthy Republicans. Why is IRS after UBS? The Wealthy Republicans who have hid their wealth from American tax system. The Constitution says we must pay our taxes as American citizens and businesses. Again, Win/Win, what is it that you don’t understand? Republicans mess up and Democrats clean up.

Hooray! Let’s all just make happy sounds and repeat innane phrases like “Fired up and ready to go” and everything in the world will be okay. And, as one blogger posted here, “don’t cry deficiet.” (her spelling not mine) No one cares about how much debt our country is burdening our children with. All we have to do is just print more money and tax the rich and everything will be just swell.

Elle:”These conservative Republicans and Republicans period are the worst of Americans. They need to be locked up to bring security to the rest of us Americans. These Conservative Republicans are cowards and they are extremely dangerous. We need police forces who will stand up to these Nazi tactics of Conservative Republicans and actually arrest these guys and gals.”
Whew, that’s quite a rant. I particularly like how you acuse Conservative Republicans of employing Nazi tactics and then suggest they all should be arrested and locked up. That’s a classic.

“Don’t cry deficiet! I don’t find it a valid argument to deny health care and education when you support WAR!”
Posted by: Elizabeth | Sep 8, 2009 11:13:11 AM
WAR is over, if Barry wants it.

” I particularly like how you acuse Conservative Republicans of employing Nazi tactics and then suggest they all should be arrested and locked up.”
__________________________________
Nazi tactics like hate literature are against the law – in many countries. You can be jailed.

-Yep, during the past 8 year in particular, multi-nationals – American and otherwise – have shipped all the American jobs overseas where they can pollute and exploit workers to their hearts content – all for the benefit of their shareholders of course.
You don’t expect a corporation to have a conscience – it doesn’t have a soul to be damned, nor a body to be kicked.-
Unlike the Secretary of State who was cool with the PanAm 103 bomber being released…Until the dust got kicked up. Or when she said she wasn’t going to sweat the PRC over human rights….or Larry Summers who made some nasty comments about how pollution could be exported to the 3rd world. Barry’s people…

-A Klan member is no different than a Black Panther member in terms of the first amendment.-
Leave Senator Byrd alone!

“Racist views are not illegal, neither is racist literature, however racist practices in the functions of society (i.e. employment etc) IS illegal.”
____________________________________
Oh good, an apologist for racists – just what we need in this country. Are you sure racist, hate literature is not illegal? No wonder American is going down the tubes – racism has been legalized.

“Oh good, an apologist for racists – just what we need in this country. Are you sure racist, hate literature is not illegal? No wonder American is going down the tubes – racism has been legalized.”
Excuse me? Apologist for racists? You like to make things up huh? Yes, thought and beliefs are not illegal. Voicing that thought or belief is not illegal, freedom of speech is not illegal. Just because you, and I, disagree with that belief and what those people have to say about it, it doesn’t make it illegal. But maybe you would like to regulate thought and speech? Then you belong in China, not in the US.

-Van Jones was correct.-
Does he know Larry Summers? Not that it matters. Jones is gone, done in by his buddy Barry when things got tough. So much for what’s right… With friends like that…

-American corporations have been moving into 3rd world countries to manufacture en masse – and we know exactly why . .
This is the moral superiority of America? Leading the way?-
Yeah, all those countries turned down factories…like China.

Excuse me but how does the actions of a corporation define the morality of a nation?
When it is convenient for an argument?

“When American corporations desert their own country en mass for the sake of cheaper places to pollute and exploit the 3rd world”
Which corporation has done this? List them, with some information on where and what they’ve done, and convince people on these forums not to buy their products. Use market forces with consumer power, not cry for the government to fix it.

“Corporation have shareholders such as any of us with a 401k. They must be profitable.”
__________________________________
When American corporations desert their own country en mass for the sake of cheaper places to pollute and exploit the 3rd world – and push hundreds of thousands of American workers out of work – freedom has reached a new level of glory.
God bless America. God bless the corporate rich. God bless the CEOs.
We should be proud.

… you have to work to ignore the republican efforts to make headway with their own reform ideas. There’s Tom Price and the Republican Study Group, with the Empowering Patients First Act. There’s Coburn, Burr, Ryan and Nunes with the Patients Choice Act of 2009. There’s Jim DeMint’s Health Care Freedom Act. Never heard of them? Well, for openers, democratic commmittee leaders aren’t debating them, scheduling votes on them , or working to incorporate their ideas into Democratic-sponsored legislation.
You also ignore Snowe, Enzi, and Grassley and their work with the “gang of six.” But hey, why let a few facts get in the way of your catchy put-downs, right?
****
This is funny. With the exception of Olympia Snow, it’s not hard work at all to see these “proposals” as plans designed to go nowhere, pretend, distract and obfuscate rather than “make headway” given the composition of the Senate and House. One of them is typical GOP subterfuge designed to increase big insurance’s profits and ensure donations, including little more than tax incentives and deregulation although it addresses liability reform in a serious manner and makes it the hallmark of the bill. The sucktitude of the bill isn’t surprising, of course, given that Tom Price and his RSC pals cite the Lewin group, a wholly own subsidiary of United Health Group, as an “independent” source, despite past complaints about skewed data. He also happens to be an MD (hence the emphasis on liability reform which is often just a way of letting bad doctors get worse unless patient safety and improved communication between patient and provider is stressed) who stood on the Congress floor declaring the fundamentals of the economy strong in the middle of the Bear Stearns fiasco. The three plans put forth are not serious plans with serious data and serious numbers of legislators behind them, although DeMint’s bill has a couple of decent ideas and all the bills have been referred to the Senate Finance Committee– so the ideas with merit could get some serious consideration. Problem is the Republicans say they’re going to vote no anyway. Hence, the pithy put-downs. (Is there really a need to repeat Price, Enzi, Grassley and other GOP quotes?)

Excuse me but how does the actions of a corporation define the morality of a nation?
When it is convenient for an argument?
Posted by: PRC | Sep 8, 2009 2:20:34 PM
***
Actually when the actions corporations take oppress or harm a number of a country’s citizens and the country does nothing to fix the situation. Not saying that applies to the argument that was taking place earlier, but there are instances where what coporations are allowed to get away with would indeed reflect on the morality of the nation, just as what citizens and the government are allowed to do reflects on the morals of a nation. I won’t do some long treatise on it, but to suggest that it’s impossible for the actions of corporations to reflect on the laws and morals of a nation is disingenuous, IMHO.

If you missed it, Fran Drescher of The Nanny took Hannity to school on health care reform. Check it out. She’s a cancer survivor who is very knowledgable about the issue.
“We have to stop thinking that Big Business is going to do right by us,” she says.
Amen.

“If you missed it, Fran Drescher of The Nanny took Hannity to school on health care reform. Check it out. She’s a cancer survivor who is very knowledgable about the issue.
“We have to stop thinking that Big Business is going to do right by us,” she says.
Amen.”
An in depth look at insurance policies and regulations would show just how the government has screwed up the system.
Now the mantra that “Big Business” is something evil or careless. That is such bunk. Fran WORKS for big business! Many people probably on these forums do! You think working for the government would be a better replacement? You’re smoking some serious drugs if you think that. You advocate shifting responsibility of health care to an entity of politicians that change parties every few years, erratic bloated spineless politicians who care only about votes and nothing about responsibility? Why on earth would we give these bozo’s, on either side of the isle, any more power and responsibility when they haven’t showed one single ounce of fortitude to responsible governance? Absolutely mind boggling.

just as we do in education.
Posted by: Alyson | Sep 9, 2009 10:43:46 AM
***
And yes, I know that will drive the cons crazy, as everyone pays for public educaton. LOL.

“I’m not afraid of the government– and most Republicans don’t appear to be either as they support policies where the government intervenes to create a corporate nanny state. I think there should be choice– a situation where you can choose whether you want to pay the government for health insurance or the private sector, just as we do in education.”
The problem Alyson is that only the wealthy will have the best care with private insurance. Its like that in those socialist states of Europe now. Look at our education and private education. I pay 7,000 a year into my education system here and I don’t have any kids. If i want to send my kid to private school, thats another 4-5k a year out of my pocket. Health care will work exactly the same way. Don’t like the failing government care? Fork over even more money. That is the dumbest system ever invented. Tell you what, I’ll support a public option when only those that use it, pay for it. How about that? If the government is sooo much better at it than the insurance companies, how about only those that use it pay the taxes for it? Lets do that, I’ll support that right and at the same time I’ll garantee that right out the gates it will be in enormous deficit and will end up costing more than private insurance. Garanteed.

“KR, I think you need to read up on health care recission– and performance evals at insurance companies where finding reasons to rescind patients with catastrophic illnesses is right there on the eval. As for health insurance reforms, we’re working on it, yes? Yes! The health insurance lobby is incredibly strong and Republicans push for further deregulation without counterbalance (see selling insurance across state lines) somewhat naively, I believe, because it fits their ideology but they don’t really grasp the repercussions. Or they do and they don’t care till it happens to them or a loved one.”
I have researched it and those examples are under the clauses of frauding the insurance company. They do look for ways to drop payouts if they find they are not legally bound to do so. Such as what is covered and what is not. The problem is with these examples is that they are always told from one perspective, leaving out important facts about these cases. Insurance fraud is HUGE business and its not just in car insurance. Doctors along with patients both commit fraud against insurance companies. Just because the company actively tries to eliminate it doesnt mean its all about the bottom line.
“Yes, people can sue– but they’re typically hit with this when they have a terminal illness or high medical costs, and we all know how long it can take to bring a case, fight a case, win a case.”
Those people will continue to get care. They will get care until the issue is resolved. It’s not like care stops until the suit is settled. Plus, these examples are so few and far between that using them to represent the whole of the system is very disengenuous. Something like nearly 200 million Americans are covered with private insurance and the examples you cite don’t even count for a fraction of that. It can only be interpreted as an intentional narrow perspective to influence people through emotion and pitty. I’m not so easily manipulated.

“I’m very confident in my assessment and don’t really care if anyone thinks I’m smoking dope, cuz, fairplay, I think their verra, verra, verra naive.”
Look, the system and how its set up is broken because patients are not physically interacting with the payment of services. Instead of dealing with the consumer for the cost and necessity of services, doctors are dealing with insurance companies. Some doctors play that system to its maximum. For example, if the max allowed payment for a procedure is 1,000 bucks, but this doctor has been doing it for 700 bucks normally, he’ll charge 1,000 bucks. Whereas a consumer, who is paying for those services, will shop and realize that it can be done cheaper elsewhere.
As a result, insurance companies and doctors are at odds. While it is portrayed as the insurance company trying to screw over the patient, its more about preventing the doctor from screwing over the insurance company.
Now there is no doubt that this EXACT same scenario will play out in the government as well. It already does in European nations. It’s part and parcel of health care systems. Who decides what is necessary and how much it should cost. In the absence of market forces, it gets bloated and taken advantage of, by both doctors and insurance companies.
Bottom line is that Government WILL NOT make this any better. In fact, a certain aspect will get worse. If the government refuses to pay for something, your done. No legal options. At least with insurance companies and contract law, you have options.