Pushback on the Lessons of ‘Lessons in Disaster’
EmailLast month, my colleague Martha Raddatz and I reported that Gordon Goldstein’s “Lessons in Disaster” – a profile of National Security Adviser McGeorge Bundy and a meditation on the lessons the Vietnam War taught Bundy – had become a must-read book at the White House as it began its review of Afghanistan strategy.
One of the lessons, Goldstein wrote, was that “intervention is a presidential choice, not an inevitability” – when the generals call for more troops or a stronger military presence, they’re not always right.
Of late, there has been some pushback against Goldstein’s conclusions. Mark Moyar, a professor at the Marine Corps University, writes:
"In Vietnam, the civilian leadership showed too little deference toward military advice, not too much. As the commander in chief, the president must, of course, scrutinize the military advice he receives and not defer automatically. But history suggests that the country's military leaders possess experience, knowledge, and wisdom that warrant the utmost respect from the recipients of their advice. The White House should tune out Goldstein and instead listen intently to what the generals have to say."
Moyar's study of Vietnam — "Triumph Forsaken"– is becoming a classic in counter-insurgency circles. His new case studies — "A Question of Command" — is making it to the desks of top military decision makers as quickly as Goldstein's hits White House desks.
Full disclosure: Moyar and I served together in the altar of Saints Constantine and Helen Greek Orthodox Church in Cleveland OH — circa 1975.
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I think they should stop trying to govern from a book that they just read.
it shows a lack of intellegents
Posted by: Tim | October 20, 2009, 9:02 am 9:02 am
“I think they should stop trying to govern from a book that they just read.
it shows a lack of intellegents”
Tim | Oct 20, 2009 9:02:33 AM
Oh noes, an administration that looks to history to avoid repeating it! That’s just horrible! And clearly they are trying to govern from a book they just read, not looking to get another small perspective to compliment the reams of reports, advisers, Iraq history, Afghanistan status and history already in the room.
Posted by: jhw539 | October 20, 2009, 9:11 am 9:11 am
@jhw539 word
Posted by: Andy | October 20, 2009, 9:15 am 9:15 am
I think they should stop trying to govern from a book that they just read.
it shows a lack of intellegents
****************************************
Yea they should just watch Faux News, Beck, Rush, and the gang.
We ain’t got time to read.
They must be from the OLD SCHOOL!
I can see that you were not indoctrinated by public education.
Intellegents????
Posted by: Thinking | October 20, 2009, 9:29 am 9:29 am
Intellegents????
Thinking | Oct 20, 2009 9:29:49 AM
Now now, no need to pick on typos. There was plenty of stupid in the original post to let slide a lack of proofreading!
Posted by: jhw539 | October 20, 2009, 9:37 am 9:37 am
Good idea to encourage further dithering while the real experts (certainly not you guys) say repeatedly, “time is of the essence”. Do both, study history and meet, but do the latter fast, and keep politics out of it, because we have 68000 troops on the ground there. If you are going to pull out – decide and get it done. If you are going to fight (and try to “win”) get the troops in there the combat leaders say they need. Just stop the political dithering and going to high-roller fund-raisers. Nothing, NOTHING is more important than the lives of our troops. Tens of thousands of our casualties occurred while Nixon played politics with Vietnam. Never again.
Posted by: mtovet | October 20, 2009, 10:04 am 10:04 am
There are a lot of lessons to be learned from Vietnam. Petraeus seems to be the best we have now. What he has achieved in Iraq has been remarkable. The process of winning the people over is key and military might may or may not be involved in that process, he says.
I think of military guys as surgeons. They always think they are the best and can get any job done if they only have the resouces and the go-ahead. But the president, like a good patient, has to ask the tough questions and review what they request. Will increased military help achieve the goal or make things worse given the risks, just like in a surgical procedure? Thank God JFK stood up to the generals who wanted him to bomb Cuba in the Missile Crisis or most of us would not be around now.
Posted by: hopesprings52 | October 20, 2009, 10:20 am 10:20 am
That is NOT McCrystal’s attitude. He said if he thought this was not doable, he’d say so. Again, ask questions, decide. Do you think he asked all the questions he needed to in the 25 minutes he’s spent face-to-face with the commander HE chose? I don’t. I think he’s dithering because of pressure from his political left. If we lose lives because he’s considering the politics of it, he should be impeached. Johnson, for all his many faults, did the right thing for once and quit.
Posted by: mtovet | October 20, 2009, 10:24 am 10:24 am
“Good idea to encourage further dithering while the real experts (certainly not you guys) say repeatedly, “time is of the essence”. Do both, study history and meet, but do the latter fast, and keep politics out of it, because we have 68000 troops on the ground there”
mtovet | Oct 20, 2009 10:04:30 AM
Dithering? So collecting all the relevant facts – like the CRITICAL question of how Karzai was going to react to getting caught cheating the election – is now dithering? You’d rather he blindly throw more troops in just to look good? Obama has already DOUBLED the US troop count in Afghanistan. It is more than reasonable that he sees if the Afghan government is going to play ball before throwing more of our men and women in to support them (and likely was a key factor in getting them to accept the runoff).
Posted by: jhw539 | October 20, 2009, 10:28 am 10:28 am
I respect commander-in-chiefs who think long and hard about committing the lives of our young servicemen to combat, who weigh every option and clearly define the mission when absolutely necessary. Those who do so easily and with no hesitation (unless we are directly under attack)should not be empowered with the most sacred trust of sending our troops in. That is the kind of leader I want should my son be in the military, and that is the kind of leader I wish for everyone’s son.
Posted by: hopesprings52 | October 20, 2009, 10:32 am 10:32 am
The lesson that should have been learned from the Viet Nam experience is that once the politicians have committed us to war, they need to get out of the way and stop putting road blocks in the way of our military. Amazing that Emperor O’Babble can instantly make a decision about the enforcement of marijuana laws but it takes him forever to comply with our General’s request for more troops.
Posted by: Ron | October 20, 2009, 11:58 am 11:58 am
Yes, we need to look at the mistakes of past wars yet we also need to look realistically at Afghanistan. First, if the Taliban regain power then it sets up that country as a spring board for terrorist activities against our nation and Europe. While we have had tropps in Afghanistan the numbers have been greatly reduced compared to the war in Iraq which in some may argue was not a necessary war. Afghanistan is necessary. The goal is to have a strategy that will meet the needs of the commanders in the field and an exit strategy when that force is no longer needed. We don’t want the numbers that were in Iraq, just enough to get the job done so we don’t have to go back at a later date. Finish it and bring our troops home safe.
Posted by: Marine | October 20, 2009, 1:58 pm 1:58 pm
Marine – Just enough to get the job done. General McChrystal requested 40,000 to 80,000 troops back on August 30th, almost two months ago. There is not a single government that is not corrupt, look at our own Obama Administration. The longer we take to send the troops the harder it will be to get ready for spring. It takes at least 6 months to get our men deployed and used to the terrain and conditions. We have alraedy lost 29 men over the last month, and now we have two foremost warfare expert John Kerry and Joe Biden dictating our strategy in Afghanistan. My fellow Marine this is a political travesty, very similar to what happened during the Vietnam War in the 60′s, when politicians run the war we take casualties and eventually lose the war, SEMPER FI!
Posted by: wizcat123 | October 20, 2009, 3:18 pm 3:18 pm
hopesprings52 – have you ever been shot at? I am a Marine and I can tell you is not a lot of fun when you have incoming fire. Twenty nine (29) this month alone while Obama and his clowns Kerry and Biden come up with excuses not to comply with General McChyrstal’s request. If we don’t hsve a strategy then just pull everyone out bring them home and face the consequences of your decision, don’t play with the lives of our men and women in Afghanistan.
Posted by: wizcat123 | October 20, 2009, 3:37 pm 3:37 pm
Ron – That is right on brother. Let the military run the war and provide them with the troops and resources they asked for. Apparently all the liberals on this blog agree with the politicians that they should run the war, perhaps the should get their tails in uniform and join our soldiers on the battlefield in Afghanistan and see how they like it, what a bunch of cowards and charlatans.
Posted by: wizcat123 | October 20, 2009, 3:40 pm 3:40 pm
hopesprings52 – The lessons from Vietnam are let the Generals and the soldier fight the war, give them what the ask for and get the hell out of the way! Obama, Kerry and Biden are a bunch of charlatan politicians, I would love to see them in the battlefield with our own brave men and women to see how they like it, and I don’t just doing a 1 or day visit with them, I mean going out to where the real action is and get a real taste of the real thing and smell war. A Marine …. SEMPER FI!
Posted by: wizcat123 | October 20, 2009, 3:49 pm 3:49 pm
I worked at I-Corp Direct Air Support Hdqtrs. in DaNang, VN in 68-69. Time after time I saw us get geared up for missions along the Laos/Cambodia border, and time after time the mission was canceled at the laast minute by folks in Washington. Once you experience that several times, you begin to realize that your mission and their mission are completely different.
Posted by: Roger H | October 20, 2009, 8:45 pm 8:45 pm
What history taught us in Viet Nam is to use overwhelming force or don’t send our people into harm’s way. If the fight isn’t worth all of our strength, it isn’t worth any of it. They got it right in Gulf War I fought by generals who were veterans of the Viet Nam conflict. Wonder what Colin Powell thinks of his guy now?
Posted by: pam | October 20, 2009, 11:36 pm 11:36 pm
No one has asked the key questions?
What are the goals and objectives of this War?
Whose interests are we there to protect?
How much are the taxpayers going to go in debt for this War?
Why spent $800 billion on Obama’s Af-Pak war and another $105billion Supplemental plus $1 billion to build a “fortress Embassy” in Islamabad?
Why did Obama’s War create so far 3.5 million Refugees that Holbrooke called a Humanitarian crisis and for which the EEuorpeans are not willing to assist?
Why were 1600 civilians killed by drones, kids crippled by the hundreds lying in makeshift tent-hospitals?
Why did it take Bush 3 years to create a 5.5 million Refugee disaster and it took Warmonger Obama only 3 months to create 3.5 million refugees?
Why did Bush and Obama insist on “liberating” women when in fact they are only offering them New Employment .
Over one million Iraqi women, formerly teachers, doctors, secretaries fled to Syria and Jordan working now as “club entertainers”
Why are hundreds of Afghani little girls sold for sex slavery, some to American contractors and even army staff? In Pakistan the same. ?
Renting the Pakistani army at a cost of 2 billion a month is not smart for the American taxpayers.
When will taxpayers ask the New Warmonger In Chief to cut off the trillion from the Wars for Power and devote it to the 45,000 Americans dying yearly from….lack of Health care!?
Posted by: memi | October 25, 2009, 10:36 pm 10:36 pm
OBAMA IS A MUCH CLASSIER WARMONGER! He gets away with it. And he can just lie back and let his telepropter do the work! Empty Suit Prez. The alternative? The Neanderthals who let 50,000 Americans die every year and 45 million uninsured. No wonder U.S. is just below Slovania!
PROTECTING PIPELINES IN THE CASPIAN SPILLS LOT OF BLOOD AND TAXPAYER DOLLARS
Posted by: pat | October 25, 2009, 10:40 pm 10:40 pm