Table Manners: Coalitions fracture, as insurers turn against health reform

Well, that certainly is a full plate of controversies, conflicts and political hash to start out the week, but oddly enough, I feel, dare I say it, “hopeful?”
It feels good to have an administration searching for new strategies in Afghanistan, it feels good to have the conflict between the insurance industry and the American public out in the open, and I am well pleased with VP Biden and Secretary Clinton – what a difference being able to trust people in charge after eight years of incompetence and flat out evil. Horray for America!

The Note is fast becoming a daily dose of persimism. Keep it up!

Amy in Maine is hopeful,Unemployment keeps going up,but Amy is hopeful.The deficit keeps going up,but Amy is hopeful.The Democrats are out of control with their health care entitlements but Amy is hopeful.Amy in Maine is apparently suffering from delusions brought on by too much Kool-Aid.
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The only delusion here is thought that the President could solve all of these problems in seven months, and he could solve them without spending money, while pleasing the GOP.

Those of us who are patriotic and support our country and our president respect that he does not make knee-jerk reactions as Bush did. I am thankful Pres. Obama puts some thought into decisions that will affect our country for a long time. Anyone who is not brainwashed by FOX news understands that it took more than the past 8 months to get us in this mess (recessions, jobs, wars). And we know full well who got us into this situation. The best we CAN do is hope that Obama can turn this mess around–if the Republicans would stop thwarting every move he tries to make.

If you’re going to accuse, can you at least site one VALID example? In independent polls, FOX news was determined to be the fairest and most balanced major news network.

Doug: “The only people that like big gov’t are people that live off of the gov’t.” — Oh come on. There seems to be a trend with the anti-government types who think they are the only hard workers in this country. Do you really believe that? I own a business with employees. I probably work harder than you do. Yet, I understand the benefits of having a society where all citizens can see a doctor if they need to. I also understand that in order to get through a recession (thanks G. Bush), the government needs to pump money into the economy to keep it from totally collapsing. Don’t you understand there are numerous people who get government help who WANT to be working hard, but due to health problems (that perhaps their insurance won’t cover), or lack of jobs, or whatever, CAN’T work? I’m glad you are in such a fortunate situation. I hope you don’t get cancer and lose your job and insurance and become one of those people you accuse of being lazy.

Deanbob: “In independent polls, FOX news was determined to be the fairest and most balanced major news network.” — Thanks for the giggle. Your name says it all. As far as valid examples, all I need to do is look at the people I am acquainted with who do watch FOX news to see that they are predominately: elderly, not highly educated (I’m not criticizing them for that), and extremely fearful. They repeat things from FOX that I know not to be true. And they seem very angry and afraid. So my conclusion is that I think FOX news is not watched by the brightest folks of our country and I also believe it is not healthy for people to watch such a scary channel.

“Unfortunately, you and your type want the gov’t to control every aspect of your life”
It always seems crazy to me that anti-government types prefer to be told what to do and how to do it by international corporations, rather than by governments elected by and for the people. They would rather watch FOX News, with its big business protectionist agenda, then PBS, which is objective and non-partisan by its charter. I worked for a big corporation for years: they outsourced every job they could, turned a big profit but kept workers at 35 hours a week to avoid providing health insurance. I’m not saying private companies are “bad”, just that they don’t make decisions with America’s best interests in mind. The government does, or should, and if they don’t, we elect someone else.

Single payer will be included in the health care bill. It will go reconciliation and President Obama will sign it by the end of the year. I would have said it will get 60 votes (because it will) but I don’t want to get anyone upset.

righties beware ….If you believe reconciliation will get 60 votes, why hasn’t already been passed?

IF I WERE THE INSURERS I WOULDN’T WANT ANY CHANGES EITHER……….I CAN JUST CONTINUE TO ROB THE CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY WITHOUT A GUN….AND BE BACKED BY THE ONES I SPENDS MY MONEY ON…THE PEOPLE IN WASHINGTON. AT LEAST I WON’T HAVE TO SPEND IT ON THE SICK THAT PAID THEIR PREMIMUMS, I’LL JUST KICK THEM OUT ONCE THEIR ILLNESSES BECOME CHRONIC. I WOULD CONTINUE TO RUN HEALTH CHECKS (DID YOU KNOW YOU HAVE ONE SIMILAR TO YOUR CREDIT CHECK) AND KICK ‘EM OFF. THE FAT CAT PEOPLE ON CAPITAL HILL GOT MY BACK! NOW ALL THE IDIOTS COMMENTING AGAINST JUST TO BE AGAINST…….HOPE YOU GET CHRONICALLY ILL SOON…….AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

Amy, that’s what I don’t get either. The anti-government, free-market types who are so paranoid of government involvement and government spending of “their” money. Yet, they have no problem with being ripped off by corporations. They have no problem with the CEO of their company having numerous houses and boats and who gets paid millions of dollars, while they are being paid barely enough to live on. They have no problem paying increasing premiums for health insurance that could likely be denied them when they really need it. What fools.

“The people of America oppose Government run Socialist health care.”
Well, that’s good, because noone is proposing anything close to a Socialist system.
What is being proposed is that everyone carry private health insurance, health insurance that cannot be denied due to pre-existing conditions, that cannot be “maxed out” by severe illness, and which is afforable for everyone.

catman
Health insurance will be manditory, so even young people will buy it, just like they do car insurance. If they don’t buy it, they will be fined.
The Congressional Budget office says healthcare reform will reduce the deficit by 81 billion over the first decade alone. I trust the CBO over Pricewaterhouse. The CBO is non-partisan, Pricewaterhouse has a pro-insurance industry agenda.

amy the fines for not buying are so rdiculously cheap that they will choose fines over insurance.price waterhouse is a CERTIFIED PUBLIC ACCOUNTING FIRM. they actually know what they are doing unlike the govt. i hate the insurance companies but i do trust price waterhouse.

B.O. lies about everything and HR3200 is fraught with lies.

Well, Catman, if your kids become unemployed and choose to pay a penalty over getting covered with health insurance, then when they get in a bad car accident and spend weeks in recovery and therapy, I guess it’s the rest of us “hard workers” who end up paying their hospital bills anyway, isn’t it? What is your solution?

Of course insurers are against reform. That’s why they are sending all their best people to DC to “help” write the legislation. Insurance corporations want to make sure there’s as little reform in the bill as possible and as many unworkable ideas as possible. Couple that with a PR policy using scare tactics and it just might work. Any time you can get people scared you can be sure they will make bad decisions.

therego …the answer is to INCREASE THE FINES TO THE MEDIAN COST OF INSURANCE. thats the answer, but the dems will never do it because there constituients wont stand for it. thats why this is nothing more than a fraud. price waterhouse is 100 times more credible than anything the obama govt has to offer.

EarnestNM —- OF COURSE the ultimate goal of the liberals in congress is to pass the “public option” — Short of that, they will try to pass something that gets them as close as possible — then figure out a way to make the insurance companies to look bad — then rush in to “save” us — with a new public option!! — Funny that they have so many sheep around that actually believe that the insurance industry is making “Huge profits”!!! — They are barely making a profit, and the Dems want to push them over the cliff!!

look who is leading this charge…nancy pelosi, charlie rangell,chris dodd, harry reid, chuck shumer….do i need to say anymore. price waterhouse has more credibility in their pinky than this bunch.

Government run anything always drives up the cost,due to the masses of paperwork they come up with,that requires more and more people to handle. Had the government stayed out of the mortgage industry,we would not be in the Economic mess we are in today.

Amy — -have you researched the future of those great liberal causes lately —Medicare and Social Security?? — If they were such great ideas by FDR and LBJ — why are they going to fail within 20 years?? — What is your liberal congress doing to save them?? —- ADDING another level of entitlements?? — THAT will surely save them!!!

Amy in Maine – You said “What is being proposed is that everyone carry private health insurance, health insurance that cannot be denied due to pre-existing conditions, that cannot be “maxed out” by severe illness, and which is afforable for everyone.”
If this is to happen where does the money come from to pay for the health insurance? If everyone is thrown into the same pool then premiums will have to go up for everyone to pay for those with the pre-existing conditions. Same thing with no one being maxed out, there will not be money available and keep the premiums affordable.
Lets just look at Maine’s universal coverage plan referred to as Dirigo Health which is most similar to the plans circulating on Capitol Hill. It was proposed in May 2003 by Democrat Gov. John Baldacci and passed a scant four weeks later. Much like the $787 billion federal “stimulus” plan that passed Congress in February of this year, nobody read the Dirigo plan either.
While greasing the pipeline for quick passage of Dirigo Health, the governor assured that all of Maine’s 128,000 uninsured would be covered by 2009, the bureaucracy would be streamlined and health costs lowered, and the plan would fund itself based on system savings with no tax increases — a similar claim to what Dear Leader Chairman Maobama has said about a new federal plan.
Six years after it was passed, it has insured only 3% — roughly 3,400 — of the 128,000 promised.
By 2007, the system was so broke that it closed to new enrollees. It still has not reopened and has also cut and capped benefits. The “streamlined” bureaucracy has cost the state’s taxpayers $17 million in administrative costs to cover 9,600 people, leading to the question, are more bureaucrats in the system than enrollees?
Systemwide insurance costs have increased 74% since Dirigo Health was passed, and the governor and legislature have tried — unsuccessfully — to raise taxes to fund the system. Dirigo’s more “efficient” bureaucracy started out with an aggregator agency for health records and a cost administration agency, but it now includes numerous councils to study this, that and anything else bureaucrats can conceive. These agencies also dictate to providers how much they can spend on new technologies and diagnostic machines even though these costs are borne by physicians and hospitals and not the state.
Dirigo Health has failed because it lacks market forces, ignores the nature of the uninsured and was more interested in bloating its bureaucracy than providing care to patients.
The leaders in Congress must look at the failed system in Maine and make sure that they don’t make the same mistakes.

Why is the Obama administration just trying to SPEND MORE MONEY??? Has anybody heard of the “Weimar Republic”?? — Google “monetizing debt” —- This is what our country is CURRENTLY DOING — This has NEVER IN HISTORY been done successfully!!!! — Our country is in deep do-do!!!

Ernest — YOU said “Everyone already knows that the Insurance Companies make “Huge Profits” — Did you hear that from Olbermann, or did you actually try to research that yourself?? — They are NOT making big profits at all — Go to Yahoo Finance — the insurance industry onlt averaged 3.3% profit in 2008!! — “Big Beer” nade 26% profit — but the Dems don’t need to demonize breweries this year!!

Amy in Maine – When Medicare was created in 1965, benefits were relatively limited and retirees paid a substantial percentage of the costs of their own care. In 1965, the CBO expected Medicare to cost $3.1 billion by 1970. In 1969, that estimate was revised to $5 billion, and it actually came in at $6.8 billion. Things have gotten worse since, and Medicare today costs $455 billion and rising. Medicaid was intended as a last resort for the poor but now covers one-third of all long-term care expenses in the U.S. — that is, it has become a middle-class subsidy for aging parents of the Baby Boomers, its annual bill is $227 billion. Schip was pitched a decade ago as a safety net for poor kids, Schip is now open to families that earn up to 300% of the poverty level, or $63,081 for a family of four. Any new federal health plan will inevitably follow the same trajectory, no matter how much Senators might claim they’ve guaranteed otherwise. The Lewin Group consultants estimated that 119 million people who now have private insurance could potentially be captured by the government under the Obama public option. This is on top of the 90 million already in Medicare or Medicaid. This would guarantee a spending explosion that would over time lift federal outlays as a share of GDP into the upper 20% range or higher. This health-care debate isn’t like the “stimulus” bill, which was largely about short-term spending and deficits. This one is about whether to turn 17% of the U.S. economy entirely and permanently into the arms of the government.
Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, during the phase-in period of Social Security, Congress was able to grant generous benefit increases because the system had perpetual short-run surpluses. Congressional amendments to Social Security took place in even numbered years (election years) because the bills were politically popular, but by the late 1970s, this era was over. For the next three decades, projections of Social Security’s finances would show large, long-term deficits, and in the early 1980s, the program flirted with immediate insolvency. From this point on, amendments to Social Security would take place in odd numbered years (years that were not election years) because Social Security reform now meant tax increases and benefit reductions. When revenues exceed expenditures, as they have in most years, the excess is invested in special series, non-marketable U.S. Government bonds, thus the Social Security Trust Fund indirectly finances the federal government’s general purpose deficit spending. It is also interesting to note that the Supreme Court has established that no one has any legal right to Social Security benefits. The Court decided, in Flemming v. Nestor (1960), that “entitlement to Social Security benefits is not a contractual right”. In simple terms, the decision means that since no one has any legal right to Social Security benefits, Congress can cut or eliminate benefits at any time.
The Trust Fund is regarded by some as an accounting trick which holds no economic significance. Others argue that it has specific legal significance because the Treasury securities it holds are backed by the “full faith and credit” of the U.S. government, which has an obligation to repay its debt. It is important to note, however, that while the Treasury guarantees the interest and principal payments it makes to the Social Security Trust Fund, the benefit payments made from the Social Security Trust Fund to American retirees have no guarantee at all. The Social Security Administration’s authority to make benefit payments as granted by Congress extends only to its current revenues and existing Trust Fund balance, i.e., redemption of its holdings of Treasury securities. Therefore, Social Security’s ability to make full payments once annual benefits exceed revenues depends in part on the federal government’s ability to make good on the bonds that it has issued to the Social Security trust funds. The federal government’s ability to repay Social Security, in turn, is contingent on fiscal policies taken today (which have tended to increase deficits and the percent of the budget spent on interest and principal payments) and in the future. Once again in simple terms if you want Social Security then the government is going to have to reduce its debt (lower spending to pay off debt) or raise the FICA taxes to ensure that there is enough coming in during the current year to cover the benefits which are to be paid.
The current healthcare bills floating around on capitol hill have the same long term outlook as Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, USPS, and other government run programs.

Is there anyone out there wanting the Dems version of “healthcare reform” that doesn’t fall into these three categories… 1) Power-mongers (like the Dems in congress), 2) the 50% of Americans who don’t pay taxes (Freebie-lovers), or 3) bleeding-heart liberals who love to throw OTHER peoples money at problems??????
Today, October 12, 2009, 8 minutes ago | MidwestValues
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On health care, the philosophy of the Democrats boils down to 1 all important item.
What would Jesus do?

what would jesus do? ASK THE ACLU… he doesnt exist in their or the democrats minds.

Ernest — Nice try — innoculous facts strung together to form an economic theory!! — Obviously you didn’t graduate in economics!! — Eernest, if you had to give back to the government 90 cents of every dollar you eaarned, would you stay in this country or look for a place where you could keep at least 50% of it??? — Fact: 80% of all new jobs are created in the “small business” sector… so who makes the decisions in the small business sector? — people making $100,000 and up! — Do you want them to hire more people, or do you want Obama to tax them to death and have them shut down their businesses and move to Canada???

Theregol, how do you blame repubs for getting in Obama’s way, do you not understand the makeup of congress ? It’s all yours and instead of using it, the dems are backbiting. You can blame repubs all you want but if you do the math, blame the dems, it’s their show and they are running it poorly, other than spending money that is.

ernestnm…jesus would teach people to fish( earn a living)rather than be fed for a day…
Today, October 12, 2009, 6 minutes ago | catman
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Really??? You can do much better than that if you just read His Words.
There aren’t that many actually. But they are the most important…or else He wouldn’t have wasted His time.
Do it and see if you can still say what you said. Then we can discuss it based upon what you have learned.

Ernest — Nice try — innoculous facts strung together to form an economic theory!! — Obviously you didn’t graduate in economics!! — Eernest, if you had to give back to the government 90 cents of every dollar you eaarned, would you stay in this country or look for a place where you could keep at least 50% of it??? — Fact: 80% of all new jobs are created in the “small business” sector… so who makes the decisions in the small business sector? — people making $100,000 and up! — Do you want them to hire more people, or do you want Obama to tax them to death and have them shut down their businesses and move to Canada???
Today, October 12, 2009, 13 minutes ago | MidwestValues
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Nor have you! Nor have you taken English before (‘innocuous’ vs “innoculous”)
Fact: Most small business owners are NOT the Rich. That is why they are called ‘small businesses’!
Fact: Taxing the Rich means taxing anyone making over $350,000/year.

Ernest — you didnt answer my question — would you, without complaint, give back 90 cents on every dollar you make?? — if not, why would you ask another American to do it??

amy i own a small business and have empmloyed over 150 people. we are independent conservative thinkers who refused to be owned by tarp infested organizations. i sign my own paycheck and pay for everyones health insurance as well. this administration cant stand that.

evry small business owner will tell you government mandates are killing job growth. face reality.

Amy — If you think employer-based insurance is OK, why do you think the ultimate goal of the Dems is to cease all employer-based plans in favor of a “single-payer government controlled insurance”?? — It’s all about controlling one-seventh of our economy, there’s a LOT of money to control!!!

Did anyone at all expect the coalition of insurers and health care providers to provide anything except lip service to their projected cost reductions?
In 2005, the average Americans share of premiums plus copays and deductibles averaged $2400. Next year it’s projected to average over $4000.
And the insurers are only worried about the proposed reforms? They should be screaming for reforms since their system is unsustainable. Of course, they won’t open their mouths about that until they’ve sucked every cent they can out of the American economy.

Again after months and months of listening to the misrepresentation of the Administration when a report that point out some of the more difficult truths they call “Disingenuous”?. The Administration has repeatedly ignored that none of the proposals do anything of any significance to control the “Upward trajectory” of health care costs. Now it appears it actually raises the cost. Wow it takes the Obama Administration to make The Health Insurance credible.

ernestnm… i commend you on your outlook. you dont need obama to make you give away 90% of what you make. you can do it on your own…its called a charitable contribution. difference is you decide where it goes. thats what seperates america from the rest…we dont need someone to tell you how to spend your money or who to give it too. its your choice.
Today, October 12, 2009, 1:35:09 PM | catman
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If Health Care Reform including the ‘Public Option’ goes through and more taxes are needed, we will never think that Obama made us give away 90% of what we made.
This is because what we make doesn’t belong to us. It belongs to Jesus. So, we will think of it as though Barack acted to give Jesus’ money to the poor and disadvantaged.
And, we really don’t think Jesus will be upset with that outcome!…based upon ’His Specific Teachings’

The insurance industry doesn’t like, or want, health care reform? No kidding? Who or what do you think is responsible for all the opposition to it? Who or what is responsible for all of the scare tactics employed at the meetings on the subject?
Before answering, consider who or what, make their living based on spreading fear?

Not only are the insurance companies correct in pointing out the Finance Bill doesn’t reduce costs(rather it raises them) but the Finance Bill also cuts senior’s care by cutting Medicare and taxes the sick(by making it harder to deduct medical expenses on your tax return). The real outrage of this bill is what it does to seniors and the sick.
Moreover, the benefits that the bill promises don’t even take effect until 2013(if this is such a crisis why do we have to wait until 2013 to cover the uninsured). Of course, the taxes and cuts in Medicare take effect almost immediately. So we get our benefits cut and taxes raised for three years before any new benefits are offered. This bill is a joke.

ernest…better idea…give everyone a tax credit who choose to fund the public option.i think jesus would be happy with that result also. i do know jesus would not be happy with karl marx and the kremlin.i get your point but obama is not my path to jesus.
Today, October 12, 2009, 1 minute ago | catman
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Since you have calmed down, I really don’t want to make you upset. But, the fact that you started off by referring to a ‘monetary consideration’ means that you do not yet know what Jesus said while He was on earth.
And, Obama (nor any man or woman) is not your path to Jesus…Jesus is. Read ‘His Spoken Words’.
There are very few, but they are the most important teachings in the Bible. You can do it all in a couple of days tops.
Then see if you still feel the same way about this Health Reform issue.

midwestvalues…exactly. this admistration is focused on govenrnment employees and tarp babies. it has not done one thing for small businesses.frankly i beleive they would like to see less small business and everyone on the govt teat as big businesses who got tarp money are no longer independent and are now part of the govt.

Ernest — I knew it — your the “takers” of public wealth, not the “creators”!! — So you really don’t create any of the taxable money in America, you “recycle” what the government gives you!!! — No wonder you can live well on $250k without worring about the twelve families who rely on your business staying afloat!! — You support the government largesse from whose teat you suckle!!
Today, October 12, 2009, 1 minute ago | MidwestValues
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I just rolled out of my chair in laughter at what you just said…that was great!
Look, if my wife and I wanted to make some ‘real money’, we would be engineers for the ‘Contractors’ that work for the federal Government. You know…like Boeing, Lockheed…talk about recycle!
We have many friends that do so and make almost twice what we do. But, because of the ‘Profit Motive’ of the companies that they work for, they are forced to compromise their ethics.
We are not and since we don’t work under a ‘Profit Motive’. And, we do not have to worry, ever, about the federal government going out of business and losing our pension. With private companies you do.
So, we don’t get paid nearly as much as our friends, but we have job security AND our full pension when we retire.
The ‘Defense Contractors’ are just like the ‘Health Insurance Companies’…they are ripping off the country big time. Companies in general lie, cheat, and steal. It’s just the way it is when a ‘Profit Motive’ is involved.

ErnestNM – You said “Fact: Most small business owners are NOT the Rich. That is why they are called ‘small businesses’!”
I will agree with that however, most small business owners combine the income from their business with their personnel income when paying taxes. This is done due to the way that the tax laws are written so when it comes to the tax liability proposed by Dear Leader Chairman Maobama and those in Congress most small business owners will see a tax increase when their business income is filed with their personnel income taxes. The Democrats don’t understand that any tax they impose on business will affect the sale price of the products sold by that business. Require them to provide health care, they will have to either raise the price of their product or reduce the cost of their labor. Same can be said for tax increases and required wage increases. Get government out of business and let the business owner put the extra money into expanding his business through increased benefits to his employees or adding employees with the extra money now in his control and not the governments.

Not only are the insurance companies correct in pointing out the Finance Bill doesn’t reduce costs(rather it raises them) but the Finance Bill also cuts senior’s care by cutting Medicare and taxes the sick(by making it harder to deduct medical expenses on your tax return). The real outrage of this bill is what it does to seniors and the sick.
Moreover, the benefits that the bill promises don’t even take effect until 2013(if this is such a crisis why do we have to wait until 2013 to cover the uninsured). Of course, the taxes and cuts in Medicare take effect almost immediately. So we get our benefits cut and taxes raised for three years before any new benefits are offered. This bill is a joke.
Today, October 12, 2009, 1 minute ago | ConstantXI
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I know! Isn’t it terrible what the Insurance Companies, working behind the scenes to draft this legislation, did!
Well, I say to hell with the Insurance Companies!
‘Public Option’ and a ‘filibuster’ or ‘floor vote’.
Let the Insurance Companies, through their Republican Proxies, filibuster the final bill with the ‘Public Option’ if they can.
At the end of this process, we will know where Congressman stands for the 2010 elections. If the country wants to go Republican, so be it. If it wants to go more Democrats…well, then a future potential ‘filibuster’ will not be a consideration at all!

ernest…i agree with you. enough wasting of time while americas unemployed starve. put it up for a vote and see where they all stand. then we can worry about it in 2010. in the mean time JOBS JOBS JOBS
Today, October 12, 2009, 2 minutes ago | catman
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I agree…more taxes on the rich for the “unemployed starving “ people.
We agree…fantastic.
Let’s get to a ‘filibuster’ or ‘floor vote’.
Let’s see what kind of a country we really have and be done with it.
I’m going to go work in the shop now…it’s a Holiday!
Good Day!