Jan 25, 2010 7:36am

‘Make Them Filibuster’: Gov. Rendell Tells President Obama, Democrats, to Play ‘Hardball’

Gov. Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania has some advice for his fellow Democrats skittish about health care reform in the wake of the Republican upset in that Massachusetts special election.

“My message to those Democrats is don’t be afraid,” Rendell told ABC News. “Listen, you got elected because you wanted to do something to change the quality of people’s lives – here we have a chance to do something historic and if it means some of us are going to lose because of that so be it. At least you will have lost your office fighting for something and accomplishing something.”

He tells his fellow Democrats in Washington, DC, to “get that best bill as strong and as tight as you can then send it back to the Senate and let’s see if they (Republicans) are going to filibuster.”

“Make them filibuster,” he told ABC News in an interview for Good Morning America this morning. “Make them go before America people. Make the American people look at a modern day spectacle of what a filibuster would entail. I think it’s time to call their bluff. I think it is too easy to throw up your hands and say, ‘We don’t have 60 votes.’ Remember its 51 votes for passage, they have to filibuster. Make them filibuster.”

The feisty Pennsylvania governor says Democrats “haven’t done a very good job explaining what we’re doing. We haven’t done a good job on how well the stimulus is working, and we surely haven’t done a good job explaining what’s in the health care reform bill and what is at stake for the American people.”

He wants President Obama to be more combative Wednesday night in his State of the Union address. “I want him to issue a call to arms,” he says. “Look if we’re going down, we the Democrats are going to go down in the 2010 election, and I am not sure we are but if we are let’s go down fighting for something we believe in let’s go down doing something. To me, it is a moral outrage that 47 million Americans don’t have health care and thousands more are losing it every day. Let’s get it done, let’s fight for them.”

President Obama has “a rare opportunity on Wednesday night to lead, to be strong, be aggressive, to chart out a course that is good for America.” He added that “a lot of us are waiting for him to join the fray and lead the fight. I think he’s done a good job but we haven’t communicated well.”

He says “I think we main reason we lost in New Jersey, the main reason we lost in Massachusetts was because our people didn’t come out and vote. Our people didn’t come out to vote because they don’t see us doing anything. They don’t see the change everyone promised manifesting itself in any way. So let’s do stuff.

“It is time to play a little bit of hardball,” he says.

– jpt

User Comments

I like Governor Rendall – he really does fight for the people; but his information is wrong. There are people who CHOOSE not to have health insurance. Basically he and the dems want to take that choice and freedom away from the American people. Similarly, in PA, Pennsylvanians do not have a choice when it comes to voting for property tax increases for school districts. In other states, voters can vote NO on school district/property tax increases. In some PA counties, residents must have an 18 point inspection on their cars every year. Residents may not be able to drive their car if the mechanic says the car has a problem. They must fix whatever problem the mechanic says the car has. I went to two mechanics one year for my inspection. Both mechanics said I had a different problem so I chose the mechanic who said I had the cheaper problem. IT IS A RACKET in PA. And so is this Health Care legislation.

Posted by: Jenny | January 25, 2010, 7:47 am 7:47 am

I too want to see a filibuster…but for a slightly different reason. I want to see who votes for cloture so that we can positively identify the targets to hit on election day. If this politico is stupid enough to paint a target on his back, well….all I can say is “thank you”. You’ve spent trillions we don’t have on entitlement programs we don’t want or need and for that you shall feel the wrath of the people on election day.

Posted by: Dell | January 25, 2010, 8:29 am 8:29 am

Let’s see …. at least 60% of the public doesn’t want this iteration of health reform. And you want your party to press ahead with it? Please, please do – please, make us filibuster! We’ll look like heroes to the general public who will thank us for fighting this laughable reform off! And how will they thank us …. you’ll find out this November! What a fool Gov. Rendell is! Please keep it up!

Posted by: Obama, the second coming | January 25, 2010, 9:18 am 9:18 am

I wonder what exactly he thinks the Republicans would have to “do.” It’s been many years since the filibuster looked like what happened in Mr Smith goes to Washington.

Posted by: Bryan Wither | January 25, 2010, 9:19 am 9:19 am

I too like Mr. Rendall but he is missing the point of who exactly is against the current agenda. There are no jobs being created, the jobs that have been saved are primarily in the Government sectors, on borrowed money. Healthcare for the poor is already there so reform to make it cheaper is wanted but without the strings a Government can and will impose.
There are no facts that prove the stimulus has worked and there is no proof that the bills on the table will drive cost lower.
No proof Ed. Sorry I disgaree with you.

Posted by: david | January 25, 2010, 9:24 am 9:24 am

If the filibuster these days involved any sort of spectacle I would agree with Rendell, but as it is a guy just raises his hand and declares he will filibuster and business shuts down. There is no pain involved, and that nearly dead guy from West Virginia would have to hang out on the Senate floor all day.

Posted by: flounder | January 25, 2010, 9:27 am 9:27 am

as it is a guy just raises his hand and declares he will filibuster and business shuts down.
flounder | Jan 25, 2010 9:27:08 AM
That is only because the majority allows it. The filibuster does NOT say that 60 votes are required for passage, it says that debate cannot be cut off until 60 agree. The majority has every right to make the filibustering minority stand up and talk continuously for the rest of the year. And they should – Republicans never rolled over like this. Make them actually filibuster, every time. Make Americans notice that Repulbicans have set three consecutive records for this obstructionist tactic – filibustering more times than in the entire 19th century just last year alone (and they set records the two prior years also!).
The Founding Fathers never intended the Senate to require 60 votes to pass legislation. The Constitution intent was that it was a majority rules body.

Posted by: jhw539 | January 25, 2010, 9:32 am 9:32 am

Rendall for president—2012?

Posted by: Ray | January 25, 2010, 9:34 am 9:34 am

Rendell is right. But I think it’s a wee bit too late. Instead of introducing an initial bill to the liking of progressives, they went right for the middle. Since then, they have not sold the public on what is in the bill, the republicans (naturally) have nothing constructive to offer, and the tea party baggers have been the only ones loud enough (not right, just loud) to be able to brand the legislation any way they want. Health care reform is most likely doomed. No surprise, democrats are pretty much the biggest party of wussies ever. The upside to all of this is that we’ll probably get to keep seeing pictures of white, angry, geriatric (that means “old” if you are a tea party participant–I’ve noticed basic problems with the english language that you hold so dear on many of your signs, so I just want to clarify) crowds in their hilarious pro wrestling-meets Cracker Barrel-meets I just robbed a flag store apparel.

Posted by: Noah | January 25, 2010, 9:36 am 9:36 am

There are people who chose not to have car insurance as well. What happens when then smash into your car? What do you think happens when uninsured people go to the hospital? We the tax payers cover the bill if they cannot pay. Those people do not go to the hospital until it is an emergency. Something that might have cost little to fix initially, now cost a lot. But the uninsured do not go to fix the small stuff because they have no insurance!! You chose to live in a community you have to be a responsible member of the community.

Posted by: Brian | January 25, 2010, 9:41 am 9:41 am

It’s about time! Thank-you Gov. Rendell. The stimulus package has worked. I’m puzzled as to why the Dems have let Fox News dictate to their viewers and make a case for failure. When it just isn’t true. Yes, job growth is lagging behind, but in all other areas, the stimulus has worked, saved jobs and prevented a great depression to name a few. Get the message out there, because there’s no one that can competently deny the facts.They can try, but facts are facts. Health Care reform needs to happen. And it’s not just about lawsuits, as per McCain’s talking point. Lawsuits make up 1% of the health care debacle we are currently in.I for one would like to see some accurate reporting on the health care issue. Come visit us in the middle class.Not those making $100,000 a year, but those making $60,000or less a year with a family.They have plenty of stories to tell about health insurance-care nightmares. That is, if they have health insurance.

Posted by: Bea | January 25, 2010, 10:03 am 10:03 am

Posted by: Bea | January 25, 2010, 10:12 am 10:12 am

$260,000 : Cost to tax-payer for each job saved or created by the stimulus package. Source: Recovery.gov

Posted by: pjoesmith | January 25, 2010, 10:31 am 10:31 am

Finally, somebody with a brain. Make the filibuster happen. Tell the obstructionists up front that they will be required to speak as in days of old non stop, or the nuclear option will be used and we will get rid of this procedural boondoggle for good. Problem is, the Senate probably won’t do it because they are more worried about their own power than the good of the country.

Posted by: Dan Martindale | January 25, 2010, 10:51 am 10:51 am

Obama the secnd coming….you make it sound like we want the death of health care reform. That’s not the case, unlike the Fox bunch that giddily screamed hooray health care is dead. We want good reform that is inclusive of everyone. We want the health insurance industry-pharmacuetical industry to stop hosing the little guy. Stop the massive profitting off the backs of the middle class. Stop profitting all together. Stop the corruption. We want a choice.
Posted by: Bea | Jan 25, 2010 10:12:35 AM
___________________________________
Bea, apparently you missed the part about how we don’t want “this iteration” of health reform. Health reform is needed, just not the type the President/Congress has been pushing on us, which would eventually limit choice, raise taxes, and reduce the quality of healthcare to a point I don’t even want to imagine! Reform is needed, just not what the President is selling … so I will cheer anything that will stop it cold! Then, start over and do it right!

Posted by: Obama, the second coming | January 25, 2010, 10:57 am 10:57 am

I agree. Getting pushed around by the threat of a filibuster only works until it has to be used. Let the nation hear what the filibusters have to say when they take the spotlight for their exclusive yak session. When their position becomes revealed for what it is, most people will be turned off by filibuster as a threat.

Posted by: Geoff Badenoch | January 25, 2010, 11:11 am 11:11 am

If you don’t like freedom and want to be told what to do, move to Hugo Chavez’ country. It sounds like you are a socialist. Americans have said NO to socialism.

Posted by: Jenny | January 25, 2010, 11:24 am 11:24 am

Here’s the simple fact that the Democrats are missing… the American public DOES NOT want this healthcare bill passed as it is. This is well beyond a Republican/Democrat battle. It’s not about “them” (Congress). It’s about US, the people, and what WE want, what WE think will help us. While all their infighting and mudslinging and finger pointing has been going on, there has been a public out here with no clue about what’s being discussed behind closed doors, no clue about whether premiums are going to go up under the “ObamaCare” bill, no clue how this administration finds it necessary to “buy off” certain Senate and House members to get votes, and on and on.
So they can play “hardball” all they want. They can gripe and complain and whine and whatever else makes them feel better, but when these “leaders” forget about the ones who put them there, and OUR concerns, they WILL find out at election time how it feels. If Scott Brown doesn’t make that point very clear, then I don’t know what will.

Posted by: Shoe | January 25, 2010, 11:25 am 11:25 am

It is the citizens who need to play hardball……by throwing these scum politicians out, and putting in representatives of the people!!!!

Posted by: Rick McDaniel | January 25, 2010, 11:35 am 11:35 am

If Scott Brown doesn’t make that point very clear, then I don’t know what will.
Posted by: Shoe | Jan 25, 2010 11:25:56 AM
–
And yet the majority of people in Massachusetts support their health care plan and support health reform– including much of what is in either the Senate or House bill when the actual measures are unpacked. The clueless tunas (who are largely misinformed by what they claim they want and don’t want) are falling for the lobbying efforts by the Koch brothers, Fox News and the insurance and oil lobbies. And their talking out of both sides of their mouths on most things.
Obama and many Congressional Dems ran on a platform of health care reform. We still outnumber Republicans in the Senate and House. We won the WH. Press forward. Plouffe made several spot-on points in his op-ed.
The American public wants health reform… though no one thinks the current bills are perfect.
And let’s call the party of no’s bluff. Geoff’s right: “Let the nation hear what the filibusters have to say when they take the spotlight for their exclusive yak session. When their position becomes revealed for what it is, most people will be turned off by filibuster as a threat.”

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 11:37 am 11:37 am

Rendell is not running and I only wish Bob Casey was on this Novembers ballot. Specter is ready for pasture. So, go full speed ahead, remember we are all populists now! Obama said in Ohio that he is going to fight for the little guy until his last breath. By the way,out today, Departmnet of Homeland Security and Immagration and Customs has been hiring retired presonel, that is double dipping at $150,000.00 – $200,000.00 per year!From Pamela Geller: “An anonymous source has revealed the latest raping of the beleaguered American taxpayer.
The latest scam going on, and it is rampant especially within the Department of Homeland Security, as well as the Immigration & Customs Enforcement, is the hiring of retired employees. I know of this occurring in other departments like Department of Defense, but I can only attest to the experience of my informant at the DHS.
Employees retire under the former CSRS (Civil Service Retirement System). These employees get anywhere between 70-90% percent of their salary, plus availability pay. Their salaries are easily in the $120-150K range. At the ICE Academy location alone, former employees retire (five senior managers, GS-15 and up) and walk into the same job the next day, bringing in over $200K — all under the pretext of a loss of experienced employees (utter nonsense).
They receive NO salary offset. ” This from administration who made fun of truck driving Scott Brown and Joe the plumber. By the way, check out FDIC Shelia Bair’s “Sheila Bair, one of the chief regulators overseeing Bank of America’s federal rescue, took out two mortgages worth more than $1 million from the banking giant last summer during ongoing negotiations about the bank’s bailout and its repayment.
In the weeks between the closings on her two mortgage loans, Bair met with Bank of America’s chief negotiator in the bailout talks. To avoid conflicts of interest, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., which Bair heads, prohibits employees from participating in “any particular matter” involving a bank from which they are seeking a loan. [Is it stupidity or arrogance that induces solons to flaunt law & ethics?] So Mr Rendell, have the Dems push o, but, please make sure Trumka and Stern are leading the charge!

Posted by: pauldia | January 25, 2010, 11:40 am 11:40 am

Posted by: pauldia | Jan 25, 2010 11:40:17 AM
Pamela Gellar– such a credible, non-extremist source. (/sarc.)

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 11:47 am 11:47 am

Bea – Where do you propose that the government obtain the massive amount of money required for this bad piece of legislation? Let’s look at what the government already owes and what they have as revenues. The federal government has a massive unfunded liability which nobody wants to address, it is the proverbial alligator waiting to bite us in the a**. An unfunded liability is a service or product which the government has agreed to pay for in the future but does not have the funding available to pay for (need to collect the funding from the taxpayers or borrow the money). Presently there are three major unfunded liabilities which together account for in excess of 107 Trillion dollars; Medicare in excess of 74 Trillion, Prescription Drugs in excess of 18 Trillion, and Social Security in excess of 14 Trillion. In addition to this unfunded liability the debt of the federal government is in excess of 12 Trillion and Congress is talking about adding just under another 2 Trillion to it. In 2008 the federal government collected 2.651 Trillion and the expenditure of the federal government was 2.537 Trillion meaning that the government had to borrow (add to the debt) to make up the difference. The numbers for 2009 will obviously show a much larger amount which was borrowed due to the expenditures of TARP, Cash for Clunkers, Stimulus bill, and the reduced revenue from taxes due to the economy. There is no way that a person with fiscal responsibility can vote for this massive increase in spending.
Let’s look at some facts from the real world was fiscal responsibility means the difference between staying in business or being on bankrupt:
1. Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart every hour of every day.
2. This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!
3. Wal-Mart will sell more from January 1 to St. Patrick’s Day (March 17th) than Target sells all year.
4. Wal-Mart is bigger than Home Depot + Kroger + Target + Sears + Costco + K-Mart combined.
5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people and is the largest private Employer, and most speak English.
6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the World.
7. Wal-Mart now sells more food than Kroger & Safeway combined, and keep in mind they did this in only 15 years.
8. During this same period, 31 Supermarket Chains sought bankruptcy.
9. Wal-Mart now sells more food than any other store in the world.
10. Wal-Mart has approx 3,900 stores in the USA of which 1,906 are Super Centers; this is 1,000 more than it had five years ago.
11. This year 7.2 billion different purchasing experiences will occur at a Wal-Mart store. (Earth’s population is approximately 6.5 Billion.)
12. 90% of all Americans live within 15 miles of a Wal-Mart.
MAYBE we should hire the guys who run Wal-Mart to fix the economy and run our Government. Let’s face it; there is no way Wal-Mart would not do a better job than Congress.

Posted by: Sandcrab1612 | January 25, 2010, 11:51 am 11:51 am

The Founding Fathers never intended the Senate to require 60 votes to pass legislation. The Constitution intent was that it was a majority rules body.
Posted by: jhw539 | Jan 25, 2010 9:32:01 AM
_____________
The Founding Fathers never intended health care and a myriad of other causes to be deemed as rights either, but that doesn’t seem to bother you.
Life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness. (Which, by some, has been confused with a guarantee of happiness.)
They also didn’t intend on government entitlement programs crippling the aspirations of its citizens.
One shouldn’t invoke their intent, unless willing to take into account everything else they intended.

Posted by: Jen B. | January 25, 2010, 11:54 am 11:54 am

he American public wants health reform… though no one thinks the current bills are perfect
Do you have a mouse in your pocket? From what I see the polls do not support healthcare or at least this version of it. Living in an area with 14% unemployment, 80% of kids on free lunches and carrying home snacks in back packs because of no food in the house I say that jobs are and should be the top priority.

Posted by: david | January 25, 2010, 11:59 am 11:59 am

“Fast Eddie” should know.

Posted by: Ron | January 25, 2010, 12:00 pm 12:00 pm

play hardball against the wish’s of working, and retired who will have to pay for this boondogle he wants

Posted by: sillysally | January 25, 2010, 12:04 pm 12:04 pm

Life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness. (Which, by some, has been confused with a guarantee of happiness.)
Posted by: Jen B. | Jan 25, 2010 11:54:16 AM
The pursuit of universal health care makes me happy because it contributes to life and liberty for all!

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 12:05 pm 12:05 pm

Posted by: david | Jan 25, 2010 11:59:39 AM
Apparently you don’t understand what unpacking the measures in them and polling those measures means.
Unsurprising if you’re typical of those on the right.
psssst… health care reform is a job creator in the long term, and its beneficial to the economy too if you think about the long game.

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 12:08 pm 12:08 pm

The pursuit of universal health care makes me happy because it contributes to life and liberty for all!
_______
Tell me how forcing me by law to purchase something…anything…promotes liberty.
The definition of liberty (in case you haven’t looked it up lately):
1 : the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d: the power of choice

Posted by: Jen B. | January 25, 2010, 12:19 pm 12:19 pm

So agreed. The American People want Healthcare Reform for All Americans. I guess me and the people that I talk to in my community, at my work or church are NOT Americans by some accounts.

Posted by: sara | January 25, 2010, 12:21 pm 12:21 pm

GREAT post, sandcrab1612! One thing I’d like to add in there… WalMart does not have a union. Your information posted + the fact they are union free = a lesson to be learned for government. Unfortunately, I think class has already been dismissed.

Posted by: Shoe | January 25, 2010, 12:22 pm 12:22 pm

Pauldia – Don’t know what figures that you are using but if a government employee retires at age 62, with 38 years of service, zero days unused sick leave and the average salary of his high three years of employment was $150k per year then he would only have a retirement annuity of $98,841 (with survivor benefit) per year. This is only 66% of what they were making prior to retirement. This would be the exception as they probably would be less than 62 years old and have less than 38 years of service. As an example if they retired at 55 (minimum age for full retirement under CSRS) and had 30 years of service (minimum number of years for full retirement under CSRS) with all other figures remaining the same then their annuity after retirement would be $76,207 which is 50% of their pre-retirement pay. A person who is 62 years old and has 42 years of service would receive an annuity of $108,270 (72% of pre-retirement salary) and a person who was 70 with 50 years of service would receive an annuity of $108,270 the same as a person who retired at age 62 with 42 years of service. Why is this? Under CSRS the maximum that you can receive when you retire is no more than 80% of your high three years of employment. For my examples I used the survivor benefit rather than the whole benefit because most retirees are likely to be married and under CSRS if you are married you cannot receive the full benefit without your spouse’s signature. I would suspect more fall into this category rather than the 70 – 90 per-cent of their pre-retirement salary that you claim as anything over 80% is not possible.

Posted by: Sandcrab1612 | January 25, 2010, 12:31 pm 12:31 pm

Posted by: Jen B. | Jan 25, 2010 12:19:25 PM
I was talking about me.In an Atlas Shrugged kinda world am I supposed to give two hoots about you? I’m pursuing my liberty and life and happiness! I doubt you’ll be forced to do a darned thing– but I think it makes you happy to wave a fist in the air and complain, so go for it!

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 12:35 pm 12:35 pm

WalMart does not have a union
—
and you can tell.
I can’t believe people would want a Wal-Mart kind of a country.

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 12:42 pm 12:42 pm

Posted by: Jen B. | January 25, 2010, 12:44 pm 12:44 pm

progressive mama – There is not one single word in the Constitution which gives the federal government the power or right to provide/fund health care/insurance for the citizens. If they want to get involved in this currently unconstitutional act then they need to read Article 5 and follow its procedures to change the constitution. We have nothing but idiots in DC.

Posted by: Sandcrab1612 | January 25, 2010, 12:44 pm 12:44 pm

How can so many of you out there say that America is NO to socialism? We have two of the biggest socialistic programs in the world! Social Security & Medicare. Any of you willing to give me your Social Security check when that time comes? Any of you want to pay for your own health care when you reach 65 and tell Medicare to buzz off? I DON’T THINK SO! Some social programs are needed. I’ve never heard anyone speak badly about SS or Medicare. So everyone, please drop the Obama socialism crap!

Posted by: JACKSON | January 25, 2010, 12:45 pm 12:45 pm

progressive mama – the union at Wal-Mart has nothing to do with it. Wal-Mart understands the first and only rule of staying in business, you can’t spend more than you earn and stay in business. We currently have (and have had for several years) a group of idiots in DC who have never run a business and do not understand what fiscal responsibility is or anything close to it.

Posted by: Sandcrab1612 | January 25, 2010, 12:49 pm 12:49 pm

Americans WANT the GOP to fillibuster. The Dems keeping trying to jam hidden bills thru without letting anyone know what is in them. When the GOP slows them down, real Americans can see the corruption, bribes and sweetheart deals being cut. We already know that trial lawyers, big Pharma and unions were big winner in the special interest kickback club in this dirty little secret called healthcare reform. How much more will we learn of, once they break out the new bill that has grown to over 2500 pages???

Posted by: Tony T | January 25, 2010, 12:56 pm 12:56 pm

“How can so many of you out there say that America is NO to socialism? We have two of the biggest socialistic programs in the world! Social Security & Medicare.” Interestingly enough those of us who do work, PAY FOR THOSE PROGRAMS. And interestingly enough, both a BROKE. Why not do another one and just have China fly its flag over the USA, since they will own us. Libs just never do get anything. If its FREE they will take THREE!!!!

Posted by: Tony T | January 25, 2010, 12:59 pm 12:59 pm

Let’s see, work in a bi-partisanship agreement or continue to try and ram this down the throats of Americans to try and make the GOP look bad? This idiot would still rather try and do what many have complained about for the last 6 months. He needs to go with Pelosi and Reid! What a complete fool.

Posted by: lfrichar | January 25, 2010, 12:59 pm 12:59 pm

“”"”"WalMart does not have a union”"”"”"
Average hourly pay is under $10 per hour (excluding pharmacist). Pharmacists make over $50 per hour. And we wonder why health care is so expensive!!!

Posted by: lfrichar | January 25, 2010, 1:07 pm 1:07 pm

lfrichar – OK then. I guess I’ll be recieving your social security check. And, I hope you make enough to pay for your own healthcare when you reach 65. Something tells me you’ll accept both very easily.

Posted by: JACKSON | January 25, 2010, 1:34 pm 1:34 pm

By the way, any of you Obama haters have any better ideas for any of the problems? Any at all! Your great leader Mr. Georgie Bushie created them all. You Obama haters really think a person can fix all of Bushie’s problem in one year? Get real! Like to see you try.

Posted by: JACKSON | January 25, 2010, 1:36 pm 1:36 pm

ere is not one single word in the Constitution which gives the federal government the power or right to provide/fund health care/insurance for the citizens.
____________________________________
Sandcrab1612 have you actually read the constitution. I refer you to Article I section 8 “the congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes… to provide of the common defense and GENERAL WELFARE.”

Posted by: Brian | January 25, 2010, 1:40 pm 1:40 pm

“I can’t believe people would want a Wal-Mart kind of a country”
Give me convenience or give me death!

Posted by: Skip | January 25, 2010, 1:42 pm 1:42 pm

Jackson – The problem has been growing for a lot longer than you think.
Let’s look at what the government already owes and what they have as revenues. The federal government has a massive unfunded liability which nobody wants to address, it is the proverbial alligator waiting to bite us in the a**. An unfunded liability is a service or product which the government has agreed to pay for in the future but does not have the funding available to pay for (need to collect the funding from the taxpayers or borrow the money). Presently there are three major unfunded liabilities which together account for in excess of 107 Trillion dollars; Medicare in excess of 74 Trillion, Prescription Drugs in excess of 18 Trillion, and Social Security in excess of 14 Trillion. In addition to this unfunded liability the debt of the federal government is in excess of 12 Trillion and Congress is talking about adding just under another 2 Trillion to it. In 2008 the federal government collected 2.651 Trillion and the expenditure of the federal government was 2.537 Trillion meaning that the government had to borrow (add to the debt) to make up the difference. The numbers for 2009 will obviously show a much larger amount which was borrowed due to the expenditures of TARP, Cash for Clunkers, Stimulus bill, and the reduced revenue from taxes due to the economy. There is no way that a person with fiscal responsibility can vote for this massive increase in spending.

Posted by: Sandcrab1612 | January 25, 2010, 1:43 pm 1:43 pm

Brian, maybe you read the constitution, but try to understand it. Welfare does not mean medical insurance……typical “but I don’t have to work” mentality.

Posted by: lyineyes1956 | January 25, 2010, 1:49 pm 1:49 pm

Brian – According to James Madison, “the most important and fundamental question” he ever addressed was the meaning of and relation between the general welfare clause and the enumeration of particular powers. This question is the most “fundamental” because the answer determines the very “idea” or “nature” of the U.S. Constitution. Commentators virtually agree on the answer Madison proposed and defended in Federalist 41, namely, that the general welfare clause is neither a statement of ends nor a substantive grant of power. It is a mere “synonym” for the enumeration of particular powers, which are limited and wholly define its content. From this answer, it follows that the primary meaning of the national dimension of the federal Constitution is limited government, understood as a government with a limited number of powers or means. The thesis of this essay, however, is that, contrary to the commentators’ claims, Madison argued that the clause was a substantive grant of power for the generally stated end and that the primary purpose of the ensuing enumeration was to define more particularly the ends alluded to by the phrase “general welfare.” Hence, the meaning of the general constitutional government in the American federal system is a government oriented to a limited number of limited ends.
This is not social welfare as practiced today the intent of the word has changed from what the founding fathers intended and the entitlement programs resulting from this misuse of the term is one of the driving factors in our current economic problem.

Posted by: Sandcrab1612 | January 25, 2010, 1:52 pm 1:52 pm

Fast Eddie, otherwise known as Ed Spendell, needs to shut his trap. I can’t wait until he is no longer Governor of my State.

Posted by: ellsbells930 | January 25, 2010, 1:54 pm 1:54 pm

Sandcrab1612, you stated there were no words in the constitution that could provide for the power to make health care. This I provided in Art. I Sec.8. We can debate about what the exaction meaning of this clause was meant by the founding fathers, but none the less it could clearly be interpreted to grant the power to provide health care. We know that the founding fathers did not all see eye to eye, and can presume they left some clauses vague as compromises. Regardless, the current health care plan mainly regulate the current health care providers, and this is clearly a power given by the commerce clause.

Posted by: Brian | January 25, 2010, 2:04 pm 2:04 pm

Sandcrab1612 – Guess we shouldn’t have started that darn Iraq war after all.

Posted by: JACKSON | January 25, 2010, 2:05 pm 2:05 pm

Article I section 8 “the congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes… to provide of the common defense and GENERAL WELFARE.”
Posted by: Brian | Jan 25, 2010 1:40:29 PM
__________
Notice you left off the last portion of the sentence…”but all Duties, Imposts, and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States.” Can you say with a straight face that those terms are being upheld in this process?

Posted by: Jen B. | January 25, 2010, 2:13 pm 2:13 pm

Jackson – It’s not the war that is the problem the federal government has been borrowing money to balance the federal budget for over 75 years. The last administration which actually reduced the debt of the federal government (not the deficit) was that of Herbert Hoover. Do you run your personnel life like this and continually borrow so that you can spend more than you earn? I don’t think so, because you realize the responsibility to live within your means. Why should the federal government be any different? All we have in DC is a group of idiots who have never run a business and have no understanding that you can’t spend more than you earn. Their attitude seems to be it’s not my money so we can spend it but it is our money that they are spending and they are spending more than we are giving them. The spending has to stop and we need folks in DC who understand fiscal responsibility.

Posted by: Sandcrab1612 | January 25, 2010, 2:15 pm 2:15 pm

Jen B., it depends on how you define uniform. Does Uniform mean the same amount from each state or proportional to the states GDP. I feel that either would be a legitimate interpretation. Clearly proportional to the states GDP would be the fairer process. Or, do you think all people should be taxed the same irregardless of their income?

Posted by: brian | January 25, 2010, 2:17 pm 2:17 pm

Nebraska is ranked 25th in GDP per capita. Ohio (where I live) is ranked 32nd. How did Nelson get a break on Medicaid taxes for a state with a higher GDP per capita than mine? He’s asked for it to be withdrawn (after it had already been voted on and passed…pointless), but he was allowed to do it.

Posted by: Jen B. | January 25, 2010, 2:31 pm 2:31 pm

“Presently there are three major unfunded liabilities which together account for in excess of 107 Trillion dollars; Medicare in excess of 74 Trillion, Prescription Drugs in excess of 18 Trillion, and Social Security in excess of 14 Trillion”
Clever use of the word ‘presently’ when these figures are estimates for a benchmark of something like 75 years from now.

Posted by: Skip | January 25, 2010, 2:33 pm 2:33 pm

Jen B., I agree, there are many shady dealings in congress. This does not change the fact that health care needs a major overhaul.If we did not pass laws because of fear over earmarks and what not, nothing would be passed. I also agree that our political system needs an overhaul.

Posted by: Brian | January 25, 2010, 2:58 pm 2:58 pm

For the record, I agree that healthcare needs an overhaul. I don’t think we need either the House version or the Senate version because they’ve both been corrupted by the process.
I’m not a member of either party and I never have been. I’m sick to death of 2500 page bills stuffed with goodies for whomever is willing to sell their vote.
Allowing earmarks to “slip through” has led us to where we are today. Maybe, if Congress isn’t allowed to pass anything until they put themselves in check, we might see a change in how they operate. Letting them do things in a “business as usual” format certainly isn’t doing anything for us outside of increasing spending on nonsense projects that don’t promote the general welfare, and adding more and more special interest groups that sell their votes for higher and higher prices to the taxpayers.

Posted by: Jen B. | January 25, 2010, 3:06 pm 3:06 pm

There is not one single word in the Constitution which gives the federal government the power or right to provide/fund health care/insurance for the citizens.
–
Sure there is. The constitutional argument is stupid, and has been discussed at great length in many places all over the blogosphere– even in these comment sections. I think fundamental literalist interpretations of religious works are stupid too– and miss the point and intent.

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 3:31 pm 3:31 pm

Give me convenience or give me death!
Posted by: Skip | Jan 25, 2010 1:42:46 PM
Nice. And I see its still getting more ridiculous spin– but what cracks me up is that the whole argument moves from analogizing federal government finance to big corporation finance and then to personal finance. LOL. What a muckery!

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 3:45 pm 3:45 pm

A) Although I’ve read Shrugged, I’m not a Randian. I believe in charity, but I believe it’s an individuals choice.
B) You said it would promote liberty for all, not just you. Liberty is the freedom from being compelled to do something. Mandating the purchase of health care by law takes away that choice.
Posted by: Jen B. | Jan 25, 2010 12:44:08 PM
Ah. Well, sorry on A, I was being flip and I thought a lot of your arguments have had a Randian slant, but I could be mixing up Jens and Jennys.
Actually, I disagree with your version of liberty. True freedom comes only with a willingness to also take on responsibility– (fleeing it doesn’t bring you true liberty, it enslaves you in its own way.) And nobody can do whatever they want without consequence. Its part of the contract of civilization.

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 3:51 pm 3:51 pm

Americans WANT the GOP to fillibuster. The Dems keeping trying to jam hidden bills thru without letting anyone know what is in them. When the GOP slows them down, real Americans can see….
—
The thing is REAL Americans, such as those in Massachusetts have said they want a wide range of things, and while the overall mood is one of frustration, here’s a little tidbit from Think Progress today regarding poll findings,
…a new Washington Post/Kaiser/Harvard poll undermines this assertion [that Brown's election was some sort of referendum on Obama's agenda and health care]. The poll suggests that while the election was a “protest of the Washington process,” it was not a rejection of progressive policy. Only 11 percent of voters, including 19 percent of Brown voters, want Brown to “stop the Democratic agenda:”
70 percent of voters think Brown should work with Democrats on health care reform, including 48 percent of Brown voters.
52 percent of voters were enthusiastic/satisfied with Obama administration policies.
44 percent of voters believe “the country as a whole” would be better off with health care reform, but 23 percent believe Massachusetts would be better off.
68 percent of voters, including 51 percent of Brown voters approve of Massachusetts’ health care reform.
58 percent of all voters, including 37 percent of Brown voters, felt “dissatisfied/angry” with “the policies offered by the Republicans in Congress.”

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 4:00 pm 4:00 pm

Actually, I disagree with your version of liberty. True freedom comes only with a willingness to also take on responsibility– (fleeing it doesn’t bring you true liberty, it enslaves you in its own way.) And nobody can do whatever they want without consequence. Its part of the contract of civilization.
Posted by: progressive mama | Jan 25, 2010 3:51:34 PM
______
You’re disagreeing with Webster, not just me. Redefining words based on your emotional interpretation defeats the point of having words in the first place. If words become as malleable as morality has, then civilization will cease to exist peacefully with or without my arguments.
I believe the founding fathers said what they meant and meant what they said. I also believe that there was an expressed purpose in their design that was a fail-safe to keep thing like the debachle bill from being legal. Whether we choose to ignore those breaches of legality is on us.

Posted by: Jen B. | January 25, 2010, 4:26 pm 4:26 pm

You’re disagreeing with Webster, not just me….
Posted by: Jen B. | Jan 25, 2010 4:26:00 PM
I’m disagreeing with limiting the definition to one of many offered up, and I’m interpreting it broadly, rather than gobbling up the right wing hijacking of the term. I’m also defining health care as a responsibility and part of general welfare. I believe in thinking for oneself. What I’m not doing is spelling “debacle” emotionally– (hey, if we’re going to make absurd arguments and project emotion onto things in a ridiculous manner, might as well take it to its kooky extreme, right?)

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 4:38 pm 4:38 pm

Apologies for my errant spelling. Ever so proud of yourself for catching that one and rubbing it in, rather than allowing for human error. Your compassion does seem to have limits afterall.
Interpreting it broadly is exactly what I was talking about. It has a definition. Interpretation of meaning isn’t necessary when it’s spelled out. Even if it’s misspelled.

Posted by: Jen B. | January 25, 2010, 4:44 pm 4:44 pm

progressive mama:The constitutional argument is stupid—-
you really think so?

Posted by: NCInd | January 25, 2010, 4:51 pm 4:51 pm

Ever so proud of yourself for catching that one and rubbing it in, rather than allowing for human error. Your compassion does seem to have limits afterall.
I pointed out that it was ridiculous and explained that I found it analogous to your ridiculous projection of emotion onto an unemotional issue– for me. Right wingers do tend to get emotional about interpretations, and stomp their little feet as they cling to something they can point to and interpret literally.
Webster has more than one definition, btw.
And not being able to handle nuance or broad interpretations is exactly what I expect from right wingers, however “independent” they may claim to be.

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 5:39 pm 5:39 pm

The constitutional argument is stupid—-
you really think so?
Posted by: NCInd | Jan 25, 2010 4:51:36 PM
Most of the arguments I’ve heard and read by right wingers, yes. I’ve read a couple of good nuanced arguments that invoke the Constitution– but most right wingers, including Fox News pundits show no signs they’d even even understand the nuances and the compelling parts of the arguments from what I can tell.

Posted by: progressive mama | January 25, 2010, 5:52 pm 5:52 pm

progressive mama – Recommend that you read the Federalist papers and other writtings by the founding fathers and then you may reeally understand the constituiton. If you want google “The Fame of Our Fathers” you can get an audio CD which is a historical documentry which details the thoughts of our founding fathers when they wrote the Constitution.

Posted by: Sandcrab1612 | January 25, 2010, 6:13 pm 6:13 pm

And not being able to handle nuance or broad interpretations is exactly what I expect from right wingers, however “independent” they may claim to be.
——–
I don’t claim anything. I’ve been a registered Independent my whole life. I don’t fit in with Republicans because of my stance against the death penalty and my willingness to embrace programs like WIC and SS because I believe in helping the helpless.
I don’t fit in with Dems because they also revel in their own death policies when it comes to abortion and because they (at least now) seem to have bought into an ideology of “social justice” where I, as a 38 year old, am somehow accountable for every atrocity ever committed on U.S. soil.
Neither fits into my view of the world, so I vote based on the individual and not the party.
If your “right winger” comments are thrown at anyone who doesn’t agree with you 100 percent, then I’m guessing about 90 percent of the U.S. consists of right wingers in your estimation.

Posted by: Jen B. | January 25, 2010, 6:18 pm 6:18 pm

Rendell is right !
Make the GOP show us how they are obstructionists. Call their bluff!

Posted by: Liberal Alfred | January 25, 2010, 10:35 pm 10:35 pm

“Rendell is right !
Make the GOP show us how they are obstructionists. Call their bluff!”
When politicians like Reid and Pelosi, whose only solution to any problem is to throw (someone else’s) money at it, are determined to push through a piece of garbage like this health care refinance bill blocking them is not obstructionist. It’s common sense. If a filibuster is the only way to get Congress to rethink the problem and start from scratch to come up with a real solution to the problem, then let the filibustering begin.

Posted by: Publius | January 25, 2010, 11:54 pm 11:54 pm

Make ‘em actually do it.
One or two old men standing and reading the phone book for 20 plus hours should do it.
Put up or become Americans and do what is best for America not your party.

Posted by: makaainana | January 26, 2010, 3:02 am 3:02 am

I must say it the way it is, I supported Mr President 100% during last november election, why is he missing the vitals points that made him who he is today? he fought for every single vote, he went to places that no one expected anything from, like NE,NV,NC, and other strange places that paid off because he needed the vote. Now President Obama doesn’t need to run around as if all hope is gone. First, “how did i made it to the white house should be his major reason he should think all over again?”. He promised to work together and i was proud of him, after election GOP became a party of “NO” we all understands that, but it would be a good idea to do what u promised rather than walking away in order to get elected for another term. Any meaningful change won’t be easy to come through, so get things done, if GOP say no thats fine, but be open to them as u promised to be before being elected, that is what America is all about and that is why i love American ideals,they wants real people to bring real change! Pls get in and be serious this time.

Posted by: Dave U | January 26, 2010, 5:46 am 5:46 am

makaainana – What is best for America is for them to STOP this horrendous piece of legislation. That is exactly what the GOP is trying to do. If this bill passes, it will be a disaster for this country.

Posted by: ellsbells930 | January 26, 2010, 6:16 am 6:16 am

Liberal Alfred – Fast Eddie Spendell is NEVER right.

Posted by: ellsbells930 | January 26, 2010, 6:18 am 6:18 am

Call the Republican’s bluff? The most liberal state in the union just ushered in Scott Brown, the self described 41st vote! (against healthcare, remember?) But go ahead Ed, set the Republicans up with enough video for every single election this Novemeber. Give them all their “Gergen moment”

Posted by: cindy | January 26, 2010, 7:01 am 7:01 am

Government is counted on to protect the individual American from the abuses of Corporate America.
Without Government intervention we would not have the 40 hour work week, child labor laws, employee safety regulations, and a host of other “legislative acts” that have helped the population.
Each one of those Government statutes sent Corporate lobbyists kicking & screaming all around the House & Senate.

Posted by: Izadorra | January 26, 2010, 11:00 am 11:00 am

Call their bluff. I say make those Republican mouths speak all night & day for as long as they want.
They ARE the minority so they will get tired of doing their shift way before the Democrats simply because they will be required to do more shifts.
I guarantee it will not last long, these guys aren’t used to actually working.

Posted by: Izadorra | January 26, 2010, 11:06 am 11:06 am

How many people will die this year because they don’t have health coverage? The GOP will have blood on their hands. They have no plan, their only plan is to oppose everything.

Posted by: Augustus | January 26, 2010, 12:56 pm 12:56 pm

Augustus -How many of those people would die anyway because the cost/benefit ratio is too high? Or that they have an incurable disease? Or they didn’t take care of themselves? Or which different people will die because their doctor can’t see them because they are now overwhelmed with patients?

Posted by: ellsbells930 | January 26, 2010, 2:29 pm 2:29 pm

The majority has every right to make the filibustering minority stand up and talk continuously for the rest of the year. And they should – Republicans never rolled over like this. Make them actually filibuster, every time. The filibuster is a Senate rule saying any Senator can argue his side as long as he wants. It does NOT say a 60 person majority is required to pass any legislation. The Founding Fathers never intended the Senate to require 60 votes to pass legislation (and they did call out when super majorities were required). The Constitutional intent was that our Congress is a majority rules body.

Posted by: jhw539 | January 26, 2010, 2:35 pm 2:35 pm

Or which different people will die because their doctor can’t see them because they are now overwhelmed with patients?
ellsbells930 | Jan 26, 2010 2:29:14 PM
Funny how none of your talking points prevent most other first world nations from having longer life expectancies, despite higher rates of smoking and even a few with higher rates of accidental deaths (Italy is pretty scary on the roads).

Posted by: jhw539 | January 26, 2010, 2:37 pm 2:37 pm

jhw539 said “prevent most other first world nations from having longer life expectancies, ”
You seem to be forgetting about how fat we are here in the U.S. and what little exercise we get. People who don’t go to the doctor, don’t go to the doctor whether they have insurance or not.

Posted by: ellsbells930 | January 26, 2010, 3:23 pm 3:23 pm

Now Rendel is making the most sense. Barack isn’t God and he’s never going to please repubs because he’s liberal and he’s black, but it’s time to play hard ball and push what we can push and never let them have anything. Make the rich pay higher taxes for the next 3 yrs. Bring the troops back home. because if a repub gets back in he’s just going to start another war. do somethings we demo need. Make them happen right now and kill everything they want.. then really let the games begin…

Posted by: DHUE9 | January 26, 2010, 4:07 pm 4:07 pm

DHUE9 – ‘Rendell’ and ‘sense’ don’t belong in the same sentence.

Posted by: ellsbells930 | January 26, 2010, 7:01 pm 7:01 pm

I agree with Rendell. Make the Republicans stand up and filibuster for hours and days. They lazy bums and will not do it. The only way to get rid of a bully is to face him down and call his bluff.

Posted by: Paul Krasner | January 26, 2010, 9:44 pm 9:44 pm

Rendell is a blowhard & jerk. He has done NOTHING for Pennsylvania, except push gambling so his cronies can make a lot of money. Why would anyone listen to him?

Posted by: ellsbells930 | January 27, 2010, 6:51 am 6:51 am

He is right make them filibuster. It’s not like they did not contribute to this mess we are in right now in America.

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Posted by: Burma Fuqua | November 27, 2011, 11:39 pm 11:39 pm

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‘Make Them Filibuster’: Gov. Rendell Tells President Obama, Democrats, to Play ‘Hardball’

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