By Julie Percha

Feb 23, 2010 1:46pm

CBO Says Stimulus Added Up to 2.1 Million Jobs in Fourth Quarter of 2009

ABC News’ Matthew Jaffe reports:

The Obama administration's $787 billion stimulus bill created up to 2.1 million jobs during the final three months of last year, according to a new report from the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office.

During the fourth quarter of 2009, the stimulus added “between 1.0 million and 2.1 million to the number of workers employed in the United States,” the CBO said.  

The stimulus also boosted the country’s economic growth by 1.5 to 3.5 percent during the time period and lowered the nation’s unemployment rate by between 0.5 and 1.1 percentage points.

In the report, the CBO noted that economic growth in 2009 was worse than they had predicted at the time that the stimulus was enacted, but that was due to a weaker economy than originally expected, rather than any failings of the stimulus.

“Economic output and employment in 2009 were lower than CBO had projected at the time of enactment,” the CBO stated. “But in CBO’s judgment, that outcome reflects greater-than-projected weakness in the underlying economy rather than lower-than-expected effects” of the stimulus package.

The CBO also said that in the fourth quarter the stimulus package increased the number of full-time jobs by between 1.4 and 3 million compared to the number of jobs that would have existed without the package.

The effects of the stimulus bill are expected to increase as the year goes on, before falling off in 2011 and fading away by the end of 2012, the CBO noted. The non-partisan research office uses economic models to analyze the stimulus and estimate the program’s impact.

– Matthew Jaffe

User Comments

“The Obama administration’s $787 billion stimulus bill created up to 2.1 million jobs during the final three months of last year, according to a new report from the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office.
“During the fourth quarter of 2009, the stimulus added “between 1.0 million and 2.1 million to the number of workers employed in the United States,” the CBO said.
“The stimulus also boosted the country’s economic growth by 1.5 to 3.5 percent during the time period and lowered the nation’s unemployment rate by between 0.5 and 1.1 percentage points.
“The effects of the stimulus bill are expected to increase as the year goes on . . . ”
More ‘bad’ news for the Republicans.

Posted by: tierra | February 23, 2010, 2:18 pm 2:18 pm

Let’s see how the republican zombies spin this one. The GOP try to remake history when it comes to President Obama’s successes. It’s a shame! The republicans ought to remember that even though they have the right to their own opinion…they do NOT have the right to their own facts. FACTS ARE FACTS! President Obama and the Democrats in congress saved this country and the entire global economy…in fact world…from a second depression! And that’s a FACT!

Posted by: Independent | February 23, 2010, 2:18 pm 2:18 pm

There are so many things that stand out in this article, I don’t know where to start.
During the fourth quarter of 2009, the stimulus added “between 1.0 million and 2.1 million to the number of workers employed in the United States,” the CBO said.
Between 1.0 million and 2.1 million? Really? And where would these jobs be? And which number do we go by? There’s a BIG difference between 1 million and 2 million.
_________________________________________________
The stimulus also boosted the country’s economic growth by 1.5 to 3.5 percent during the time period and lowered the nation’s unemployment rate by between 0.5 and 1.1 percentage points.
Lowered the nation’s unemployment rate? Have they not seen the 11% unemployment rate? How about if these “experts” come by some of the towns across the US and take a look at the unemployment lines, the social services lines, the folks who are depressed, disgruntled and confused about NOT having a job.
________________________________________________
The CBO also said that in the fourth quarter the stimulus package increased the number of full-time jobs by between 1.4 and 3 million compared to the number of jobs that would have existed without the package.
Hold on a second. I thought we just read that the Stimulus added “between 1 million and 2.1 million jobs”. Now we read “increased the number of full time jobs by between 1.4 and 3 million…” 3 million? What happened to the 1-2.1 million? How did we get to 3 million?
________________________________________________
The effects of the stimulus bill are expected to increase as the year goes on, before falling off in 2011 and fading away by the end of 2012, the CBO noted.
So the happiness we’re feeling now over ALL these jobs that are just pouring out of the woodwork will soon fade away? Then what? More stimulus?

Posted by: Shoe | February 23, 2010, 2:30 pm 2:30 pm

Not so bad . Please identify one of those 2 million jobs which pay $393,000.00 . Must be Fed jobs .

Posted by: nat turner | February 23, 2010, 2:39 pm 2:39 pm

LOL!! Tell the folks in Detroit.

Posted by: Chuck | February 23, 2010, 2:40 pm 2:40 pm

Keep whistling past the graveyard,dems.See you in November.

Posted by: bobmac | February 23, 2010, 2:41 pm 2:41 pm

A few weeks ago, in a statement typical of his party’s propensity for propaganda, newly-minted Senator Scott Brown (R-MA) forcefully asserted that the Obama administration’s economic stimulus package, “hasn’t created one new job.”
The problem with Brown’s declaration is that it’s objectively false. On Wednesday, the New York Times published a piece on the bill’s far-reaching impact. The results expose just how deceitful and irresponsible the senator’s remarks were.
One year on, the Recovery Act is well on its way to accomplishing all of its stated objectives. Next time the junior senator from Massachusetts speaks out of turn, I suggest he do his homework beforehand.

Posted by: Armchair Firebrand | February 23, 2010, 2:51 pm 2:51 pm

Gee – I sure would like to know where those jobs are … since my company laid off me along with 62 others in November of 2009.
If there were 1-2 million jobs created, how many were eliminated? The Unemployment rate sure doesn’t reflect this change….
And $787 billion, how much did each one of those jobs cost the taxpayer? Over 300,000 each… not much of a bargain.

Posted by: maryellen | February 23, 2010, 2:52 pm 2:52 pm

“More ‘bad’ news for the Republicans.
Posted by: tierra | Feb 23, 2010 2:18:25 PM”
Yup and they are flipping out.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 23, 2010, 3:11 pm 3:11 pm

There’s some right spin in our future!!

Posted by: yeaobama! | February 23, 2010, 3:15 pm 3:15 pm

keep spinning you two…those numbers don’t reflect what the private sector sees or feels in their pocketbook.

Posted by: wow | February 23, 2010, 3:16 pm 3:16 pm

Pray tell, where were these jobs created? I would like to see the proof

Posted by: DJ | February 23, 2010, 3:37 pm 3:37 pm

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) — More bad news on the housing bust front: Nearly 25% of all mortgage borrowers were underwater, meaning they more on their loans than their homes are worth.
First American CoreLogic, the research firm that monitors housing equity, reported Tuesday that 11.3 million homeowners — or 24% of all homes with mortgages — were underwater as of the end of 2009. That’s up from 23% and 10.7 million borrowers three month earlier.
Nevada was the state with the worst record at 70% of all mortgaged properties underwater. That was followed by Arizona (51%), Florida (48%), Michigan (39%) and California (35%).
“Negative equity is a significant drag on both the housing market and on economic growth,” said Mark Fleming, chief economist with First American CoreLogic. “It is driving foreclosures and decreasing mobility for millions of homeowners.”

Posted by: Mary | February 23, 2010, 3:37 pm 3:37 pm

Ah, yes, the Stimulus Bill, it takes me back to those exciting days when I was glad for the nation’s new start and young president with his words of bottom-up governing and transparency.
I was offering up my ideas along with millions of others about how to get the nation going again. I was part of a smart group proposing an ambitious rail initiative — from urban to high speed to hauling — that, like the interstate highway visions of Eisenhower and the moon project of Kennedy, would transform our physical and economic landscape. Such audacity was not to be.
The leadership was drunk on power, and they had to go and commit debauchery on that bill like she was their Party’s prostitute. They had a grand time filling that bill up with every tired payback they could think of.
What a terrible waste. Even Mr. Buffett had to protest the abuse of that opportunity.
Today, Harvard economist Barro reports his estimates that over 5 years we will spend 9 billion and get 6 billion in growth, and that is very poor return for what is supposed to multiply the economy, not set it back.
So, I am glad that there is also news today that SOME jobs actually came from this squander. Too bad it is so puny compared to what could have been.

Posted by: Carol | February 23, 2010, 4:16 pm 4:16 pm

Question: How do you count a “saved” job? Answer: You can’t. There is no way to measure a hypothetical. The only measureable facts are the unemployment figures. Saying a 0.1 percent drop is “turning the corner” is a logical fallacy. Hell 0.1 percent doesn’t even cover the margin of error! What are people smoking out there!

Posted by: jafo | February 23, 2010, 4:22 pm 4:22 pm

Whoops! correction on my last post: Barro says we’re spending $900 billion to get $600 billion. While the numbers are 100x larger than I wrote, the failure of the stimulus as a multiplier, unfortunately, is just the same.

Posted by: Carol | February 23, 2010, 4:23 pm 4:23 pm

I see our liberal lovelies (tierra and RyanC) are on the warpath already. Here’s the deal, though. Republicans or “the right” as you call them don’t have to SPIN anything on this one. Just go around the country and talk to people. Take a look at the jobless numbers (including those tagged as “underemployed”), take a look at the number of foreclosed homes, take a look at people on welfare and unemployment rolls right now, take a look at the lines in front of the unemployment offices. Remember when Obama and his band of liberals claimed that we’d be over 8% unemployment if we did not pass the stimulus bill? Well, it passed. And, what a surprise, we’re OVER 8% anyway.
And what about 2011 and 2012 when it starts to dwindle and phase out? What will the unemployment numbers be then? I suppose we COULD all join the labor unions and be guaranteed a job…or at least the pay even if we don’t work.

Posted by: Shoe | February 23, 2010, 4:34 pm 4:34 pm

The following are the only jobs officially reported being created under the stimulus, all other numbers where taken from estimated multipliers, and we have all seen how accurate the CBO’s estimates were for the last year or so, before people just post the summary at the bottom of the CBO report maybe they should actually read the entire report and see what type of methodology was used to arrive at their conclusions.
And now I need some one to explain me something, if 2/3 of the jobs went to education, how in the world is spending money on something that does not create wealth supposed to get us out of this Recession?
You could create 8 million teaching jobs and the only thing it would do is drive us deeper in debt, so again how is this a good thing?
According to the recipients’ reports, a total of 595,263
full-time-equivalent jobs—more than two-thirds of them
in education—were created or retained using ARRA
funds during the fourth quarter.6 However, adding up the
reported numbers of jobs created or retained is not a
comprehensive measure of ARRA’s effect on overall
employment, or even of the effect of those provisions of
ARRA for which recipients’ reports are required. The
actual impact of those provisions could, in principle, be
significantly larger or smaller than the total reported
number of jobs.

Posted by: Damien | February 23, 2010, 5:04 pm 5:04 pm

“Here’s the deal, though. Republicans or “the right” as you call them don’t have to SPIN anything on this one. Just go around the country and talk to people. Take a look at the jobless numbers (including those tagged as “underemployed”), take a look at the number of foreclosed homes, take a look at people on welfare and unemployment rolls right now, take a look at the lines in front of the unemployment offices.”
Republicans have plenty to spin.
Most American BLAME THEM for the economic situation.
Which is why the economic collapse was spun by the right wing not as Wall Street repackaging risky debt and leveraging themselves into oblivion but the racist accusation about the futilty of lending money to minorities.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 23, 2010, 5:08 pm 5:08 pm

While adding jobs to the economy would normally indicate good news, unfortunately, with Obama and the other liberals in Congress you always have to read between the lines. If you do the math (see below), liberals spent about $75,000 per job created by the “Recovery” act in the 4th quarter of 2009. If you look at the Recovery.gov data based on funds received and jobs created, the rate spent increases to about $96,000 per job. When you irresponsibly throw around the American people’s money like that, you’re bound to get some growth from it. Not to mention the fact that much of the growth is in government. Only liberals and the uninformed find this sort of wasteful and unnecessary spending of our future to be good news.
4th Quarter 2009 – 1/5 ARRA funds spent toward jobs = $157.4 billion
$157.4 billion / 2.1 million jobs ≈ $75,000 per job

Posted by: Anonymous | February 23, 2010, 5:14 pm 5:14 pm

“And now I need some one to explain me something, if 2/3 of the jobs went to education, how in the world is spending money on something that does not create wealth supposed to get us out of this Recession?”
Yeah because who needs education to create wealth in the future when we need to just immediately create wealth.
The right wing…stuck on stupid.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 23, 2010, 5:17 pm 5:17 pm

No new jobs in the USA, they are all overseas. I am sure China will thank Comrade Obama for the new jobs.

Posted by: sebenza | February 23, 2010, 5:27 pm 5:27 pm

Wow, yeah because throwing money at education has worked wonders. In Nevada $.54 of every tax dollar in the state goes to education of our 6 billion dollar budget equaling about 3.24 billion paid out to education, we have some of the worst schools in the nation per the recent study done rating schools on test scores.
So lets just spend more money we don’t have on something that isn’t working.
Left-Wing Stupidity!

Posted by: Damien | February 23, 2010, 5:33 pm 5:33 pm

“Which is why the economic collapse was spun by the right wing not as Wall Street repackaging risky debt and leveraging themselves into oblivion but the racist accusation about the futilty of lending money to minorities.”
Staight out of the Left Wing Playbook: When pushed to desperation in the face of facts, pull the “race card”…

Posted by: tjp612 | February 23, 2010, 5:46 pm 5:46 pm

“If I Could Create One Job in the Private Sector, That’s More Than Congress Has Created in the Last 6 Months”
- Senator Evan Bayh (DEMOCRAT, Indiana)
February 2010
Who knew Bayh was a closet Right Winger?

Posted by: tjp612 | February 23, 2010, 5:51 pm 5:51 pm

“Wow, yeah because throwing money at education has worked wonders. In Nevada $.54 of every tax dollar in the state goes to education of our 6 billion dollar budget equaling about 3.24 billion paid out to education, we have some of the worst schools in the nation per the recent study done rating schools on test scores.”
So the idea is to stop investing in education and the problem will solve itself?
A reminder that Nevada does not have a state income tax and is currently selling off its natural resources for pennies on the dollar rather than raise taxes.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 23, 2010, 5:52 pm 5:52 pm

If the stimulus was so successful,why is consumer confidence collapsing? How many jobs would be created by the simple expansion of the economy seen with the recovery from a recession-which by history we would be seeing by now,stimulus or no stimulus.Is increasing debt by 800 billion dollars good economic policy?Is it sustainable?What scares me most is the appearence of increasing interest rates-not the harbinger of economic recovery,but the advent of Weimar-era inflation.

Posted by: Nephron | February 23, 2010, 6:09 pm 6:09 pm

Spending money we don’t have on a system that doesn’t work is the answer?
The idea is to actually live within our means, if we have a budget of 2.4 trillion dollars, don’t spend more than that, the idea is to allow the states more control over Education and not have unfunded federal mandates that require the states to fund them. The idea to to have each person actually be responsible for their children and their education and not pawn them off for the public school to raise.

Posted by: Damien | February 23, 2010, 6:28 pm 6:28 pm

Probably either government jobs, or temporary jobs.
Or maybe made up jobs in made up districts.

Posted by: larry | February 23, 2010, 6:28 pm 6:28 pm

“Staight out of the Left Wing Playbook: When pushed to desperation in the face of facts, pull the “race card”…”
So you are denying that the right wing (including yourself personally) tried to lay the blame for the economic crisis on minorities by attacking CRA and ACORN?

Posted by: Ryan C | February 23, 2010, 6:33 pm 6:33 pm

Posted by: Carol | Feb 23, 2010 4:16:46 PM posted: “I am glad that there is also news today that SOME jobs actually came from this squander. Too bad it is so puny compared to what could have been.”
Carol, I’d like to better understand what you mean by “what could have been”. Were you aware that during the Bush era, our economy created 3 Million (net) new jobs, according to the WSJ? That’s 3 Million new jobs in EIGHT YEARS.
The WORST job creation history since records have been kept.
So, if as the CBO reports, we added between 1.0 million and 2.1 million in ONE QUARTER, how is that “puny”?

Posted by: CenterOne | February 23, 2010, 6:33 pm 6:33 pm

“Who knew Bayh was a closet Right Winger?”
Nahh its more likely he is just a sellout.
What for his next lobbying job and we will find out.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 23, 2010, 6:33 pm 6:33 pm

Consumers aren’t buying,businesses aren’t hiring. Why?
There is just about zero trust in Obama.
He is not through wrecking the economy, the worst is not over, and he is going to raise taxes on everyone.

Posted by: hank | February 23, 2010, 6:35 pm 6:35 pm

Sorry CBO.
There are more people that believe Elvis is still alive–7%.
Only 6% believe the Stimulus has created a significant number of jobs.

Posted by: millie | February 23, 2010, 6:40 pm 6:40 pm

“What scares me most is the appearence of increasing interest rates-not the harbinger of economic recovery,but the advent of Weimar-era inflation.”
ROFLMAO!
The tin foil hat wearing birther is back to this old Glenn Beck conspiracy.
The Fed just raised the interest rate for temp bank loans indicating they might be willing to raise interest rates more broadly. Currently the key interests rates for the Fed are near ZERO.
.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 23, 2010, 6:42 pm 6:42 pm

Just using round numbers, 800 billion in stimulus that saved/created 2 million jobs works out to $400,000 per worker. Now lets say the average job saved/created is $100,000 per worker, that would be 200 billion. What happened to the other 600 billion in stimulus.

Posted by: Fred M | February 23, 2010, 6:49 pm 6:49 pm

“Just using round numbers, 800 billion in stimulus that saved/created 2 million jobs works out to $400,000 per worker.”
Except you are only including jobs created in the 4th Q of 2009 and applying all of the stimulus money (some of which has yet to be spent) to those jobs.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 23, 2010, 7:02 pm 7:02 pm

“So you are denying that the right wing (including yourself personally) tried to lay the blame for the economic crisis on minorities by attacking CRA and ACORN?”
There you go again.
Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, the banks (and other mortgage lenders) in the interest of maintaining their status as a going-concern and remaining solvent objected to lending money to non-qualified buyers as evaluated by credit worthiness (rather than the color of their skin)? Could it be possible?
Nice try. Aren’t you amazed at how badly Obama and the Dimocrats have performed over the past year and how incompetent they have proven themselves? I am – But I gave these Far Left Libs too much credit. I have since recalibrated.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 23, 2010, 7:06 pm 7:06 pm

Of course, no one ever comes forward and says, “Here I am! I am a new hire!”
But when you create 50 jobs by buying a new lawnmower, it’s not that much of a leap to get to 1 million, 2 million, 3 million.
I don’t doubt that “some” new jobs were created – but 1 million to 3 million? Come on! With 14 million out of work, there would have been a major adjustment in numbers, somewhere.
And yes: I am unemployed. Got laid off New Year’s Eve.

Posted by: For The Record | February 23, 2010, 7:09 pm 7:09 pm

Consumer confidence is at a 10-month low. The Obamabots would claim that consumer confidence would be even lower if not for the “success of the stimulus package.” They subsequently refer to it unblinkingly as “consumer confidence saved.”

Posted by: tjp612 | February 23, 2010, 7:10 pm 7:10 pm

“More ‘bad’ news for the Republicans.
Posted by: tierra | Feb 23, 2010 2:18:25 PM”
Yup and they are flipping out.
Posted by: Ryan C | Feb 23, 2010 3:11:09 PM
Yea, we’re flipping out: All the way to the voting booth in November.

Posted by: For The Record | February 23, 2010, 7:10 pm 7:10 pm

All you have to do is go to the CBO report and look at the titles on the tables:
Estimated Macroeconomic Impact of the American Recovery and Reinvestment
Act in the Fourth Quarter of Calendar Year 2009
Estimated Output Multipliers of Major Provisions of the American Recovery and
Reinvestment Act of 2009
Estimated Macroeconomic Impact of the American Recovery and Reinvestment
Act, 2009 to 2012
“Estimated” Impact” “Multipliers” No real numbers here… No wonder the numbers are 1 million to 2 million.
Imagine the pollsters if they said margin of error plus or minus 50%?

Posted by: For The Record | February 23, 2010, 7:15 pm 7:15 pm

Hope things turn around for you soon, FTR.
Posted by: tjp612 | Feb 23, 2010 7:16:11 PM
Thanks!

Posted by: For The Record | February 23, 2010, 7:22 pm 7:22 pm

“Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, the banks (and other mortgage lenders) in the interest of maintaining their status as a going-concern and remaining solvent objected to lending money to non-qualified buyers as evaluated by credit worthiness (rather than the color of their skin)? Could it be possible?”
Remaining solvent by lending to unqualified buyers?
Were they taking advice from Michael Steele who blew the RNC’s haul in Jan on the meeting in Hawaii?

Posted by: Ryan C | February 23, 2010, 7:23 pm 7:23 pm

Read the first paragraph of the “appendix” as to how they came up with their “estimate.”
Appendix: Evidence on the Economic Effects of Fiscal Stimulus
The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) based its estimates of the economic effects of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) on information from various sources: macroeconometric forecasting models, general-equilibrium models, and direct extrapolations of past data. Macroeconometric forecasting models incorporate relationships among aggregate economic variables that are based largely on historical evidence. General-equilibrium models, by contrast, are built on explicit assumptions about the decision-making of individuals and businesses. Direct extrapolations of past data are generally based on correlations among economic variables in the past or the effects of specific types of policy events in the past.

Posted by: For The Record | February 23, 2010, 7:25 pm 7:25 pm

well, I can’t imagine how pumping this much money into the economy wouldn’t do SOMETHING…the real question is, are we pumping “blood” into a “patient” that is cut off at the torso? And if so, what happens when we run out of donated blood?

Posted by: cindy | February 23, 2010, 7:32 pm 7:32 pm

“Were they taking advice from Michael Steele who blew the RNC’s haul in Jan on the meeting in Hawaii?”
The smell of desperation is palpable.
Don’t worry: In 11 months Republicans will take over the House and in 3 years Republicans will take back the WH. Then, you and the rest of the Far Left can return to a more comfortable (and frankly competent) position of expressing “outrageous outrage” rather than governing. Libs aren’t suited for governing, their life experiences are generally very limited.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 23, 2010, 7:38 pm 7:38 pm

Posted by: cindy | Feb 23, 2010 7:32:37 PM posted: “the real question is, are we pumping “blood” into a “patient” that is cut off at the torso?”
Investing in education right now is critical for our nation. According to a recent economic assessment “The High Cost of Low Educational Performance” we are investing in our future. Bringing US educational attainment up to the level of Finland would result in GDP gains in the order of $260 TRILLION over 80 years. (That’s a letter T).
So how does spending stimulus money on education help in this near term? Here’s an example in my state, Oregon, where we have been hard hit by the Recession: A year ago we started State spending on infrastructure projects to get people working and off unemployment.
But the key focus for stimulus money has been to create family wage jobs.
We used Federal Stimulus money to build healthy new tax payers by investing in school districts, training and community college scholarships.
A well trained workforce has already helped attract new employers offering decent salaries, like the country’s largest Solar Panel plant, Bio Sciences, Health Care, High Tech, and Renewable energy.
And last quarter, GE just announced a $1.4 Billion contract to build the world’s largest Wind Farm in Oregon with American assembled turbines.

Posted by: CenterOne | February 23, 2010, 8:13 pm 8:13 pm

Hi Center One! How are ya? Today’s headline in our paper was about closing three firestations, withdrawing all lifeguards from area beaches and closing the libraries one or more additional days..(they are now open 5 days/week.) Meanwhile, we had a foreclosed home on our street sell in 5 hours at 1/3 of its (already depressed)assessed value. (I found out the banks are being covered on their foreclosure losses by the FDIC, insurance, the VA, FHA, fannie, freddie )so no biggie for them)-really in a funk today..

Posted by: cindy | February 23, 2010, 8:22 pm 8:22 pm

Posted by: cindy | Feb 23, 2010 8:22:37 PM posted: “really in a funk today.”
Sorry about the funk, but things are changing. No way any State will go back to our old bubble economy – it’s going to take some shake-out time, so keep positive and strike out with a new attitude.
Me? I’m being purposeful. Cooking from scratch and freezing. Moving our business accounts to a LOCAL bank from a to-big-to-fail bank. Buying local. Volunteering with kids struggling to read.
And remember we can each make a difference: the Oregon owner of my favorite flour company, Bob’s Red Mill, just decided to GIVE his business to his employees because he though it was the right thing to do. Don’t let the bastards get you down!

Posted by: CenterOne | February 23, 2010, 8:41 pm 8:41 pm

Were they taking advice from Michael Steele who blew the RNC’s haul in Jan on the meeting in Hawaii?”
The smell of desperation is palpable.
Posted by: tjp612 | Feb 23, 2010 7:38:31 PM
Thanks for the chuckle, Ryan C.
tjp, c’mon. Steele has taken in less money than his predecessors and spent twice as much on things like car services, charter flights and fancy meals– while his party is giving fiscal responsibility a heckuva lot of lip service and trying to pretend they’ve changed.
Also, have you ever read the Vanity Fair article “100 to blame.” Its pretty democratic — a good read. Under ninja loan (#72):
“A term for subprime mortgages with the strict qualifying requirements of “no income, no job, and no assets,” “ninja loans” was apparently first used in ads by HCL Finance of San Jose, California. ”
Other items listed you might like, Pay-Option Negative Amortization Adjustable Rate Mortgages, the SEC, the Home Builders (think Beezer Homes), and so on.
And then there’s “infectious greed”–
“The second stage of irrational exuberance, where builders, bankers, and buyers all thought the market for luxury housing—defined as anything with a granite kitchen counter—would continue to expand indefinitely. Eventually, the disease reached pandemic proportions, and the fever spread to fashion, retailing, boutique-hotel construction, and private-jet charter services. They all succumbed to the belief that there were an infinite number of people, with an infinite amount of money, who would keep the market for high-ticket luxury items growing, forever.”
And finally, the last remarks under US Congress: “This may have been the worst financial storm since the Great Depression—caused, in part, by political butterflies, flapping their wings for entirely self-interested reasons—but unless we change our ways, it certainly won’t be our last.”
Its really hard to take people who don’t get the big picture and try to protect Wall Street and Republicans all that seriously.
What we all ought to be interested in, imho, is pressing Congress and the admin to change– and Wall Street, too, via financial regulation reform. There are no easy answers but finding a scapegoat doesn’t get us out of the mess and on stable ground.

Posted by: progressive mama | February 23, 2010, 8:48 pm 8:48 pm

The CBO meant 2-3 million jobs were created in CHINA in the fourth quarter thanks to the stimulus.

Posted by: Karen | February 23, 2010, 8:49 pm 8:49 pm

And remember we can each make a difference: the Oregon owner of my favorite flour company, Bob’s Red Mill, just decided to GIVE his business to his employees because he though it was the right thing to do. Don’t let the bastards get you down!
Posted by: CenterOne | Feb 23, 2010 8:41:32 PM
I like your outlook CenterOne. Sorry I posted my last post before reading yours as it wasn’t as upbeat :^)
I googled Bob’s Red Mill. What a great story! From Clackamas County News:
“Moore, whose mutual loves of healthy eating and old-world technologies spawned an internationally distributed line of products, responded with a gift of his own — the whole company. The Employee Stock Ownership Plan Moore unveiled means that his 209 employees now own the place and its 400 offerings of stone-ground flours, cereals and bread mixes.
“This is Bob taking care of us,” said Lori Sobelson, who helps run the business’ retail operation. “He expects a lot out of us, but really gives us the world in return.” Moore declined to say how much he thinks the company is worth. In 2004, however, one business publication estimated that year’s revenues at more than $24 million. A company news release issued this week stated that Bob’s Red Mill has chalked up an annual growth rate of between 20 percent to 30 percent every year since.
“In some ways I had a choice,” Moore said of what he could have done with the company he founded with his wife, Charlee, in 1978. “But in my heart, I didn’t. These people are far too good at their jobs for me to just sell it.”
Bless his heart!

Posted by: progressive mama | February 23, 2010, 8:53 pm 8:53 pm

Thanks center..I read about the Red Mill story-that was heartwarming!This bank thing has me in knots..and the realtors are willing accomplices. They brag in the sunday papers about their service projects..meanwhile they are undermining the very communities they pretend to support. I did reading support for a year, it was very fulfilling, but the school was so far away that the gas got too expensive. AS far as our county cutting back, don’t get me wrong..I’m ready to live the losses..I WANT to do it so my kid’s kids don’t have to. I just wish they’d quit talking and threatening..JUST DO IT!

Posted by: cindy | February 23, 2010, 9:03 pm 9:03 pm

I don’t consider Vanity Fair a source for economic wisdom.I do see inflation as a real threat once the economy starts moving.And lastly,I would really like to have a President intellegent enough to tell the difference between California and Colorado.I would like a President who actually knows geography.

Posted by: Nephron | February 23, 2010, 10:20 pm 10:20 pm

And lastly,I would really like to have a President intellegent enough to tell the difference between California and Colorado.I would like a President who actually knows geography.
Posted by: Nephron | Feb 23, 2010 10:20:17 PM
___________________________________
Now you’re just being ridiculous. By the way ‘intellegent’ is spelled ‘intelligent’.

Posted by: tierra | February 23, 2010, 10:30 pm 10:30 pm

Didn’t get the pun? Bill Ritter did.

Posted by: Nephron | February 23, 2010, 11:13 pm 11:13 pm

I guess the Corpseman got confused-he was looking for someone speaking Austrian.

Posted by: Nephron | February 23, 2010, 11:24 pm 11:24 pm

I don’t consider Vanity Fair a source for economic wisdom.

There’s a difference between considering something one’s source of economic wisdom, and appreciating a good article that sums up what wisdom and information can be gleaned from a wide range of sources with wit, humor, fairmindedness and edge.
Closing one’s self off isn’t particularly wise, imho. Surprise those dendrites once in a while and let them branch out in unexpected directions.

Posted by: progressive mama | February 23, 2010, 11:38 pm 11:38 pm

More lies! The Obama/Pelosi/Reid administration has no problem governing AGAINST the will of the people. They’ve looked down upon the American people with such arrogant conceit and even have gone so far as to dismiss those who have spoken out against their policies.

Posted by: This Corrupt Administration Will Destroy America! | February 23, 2010, 11:40 pm 11:40 pm

The Obama/Pelosi/Reid administration has no problem governing AGAINST the will of the people.

Against the will of which people, and how many?
According to Kaiser (see their website):
“The February Kaiser Health Tracking Poll finds the public still split on health care reform legislation, with 43 percent in favor and 43 percent opposed. However, the poll also finds that majorities of Americans of all political leanings support several provisions in the health reform proposals in Congress and most attribute delays in passing the legislation to political gamesmanship rather than policy disagreements.
The poll finds that at least six of every 10 Republicans, Democrats and independents back at least some of the key provisions in the reform bills that have passed the House and Senate. They include measures that would: reform the way health insurance works, such as preventing insurers from excluding people because of pre-existing conditions; offer tax credits to small businesses to help their workers get coverage; create a new health insurance marketplace; help close the Medicare “doughnut hole” so that seniors would no longer face a period of having to pay the full cost of their medicines; and expand high-risk insurance pools for individuals who cannot get coverage elsewhere. Providing subsidies to lower and middle income people also receives strong support from Democrats and independents and near majority support from Republicans.”
This is also in keeping with the new Newsweek poll which finds that the public strongly supports several important aspects of the Senate bill, and supports the bill itself once they understand it better.
Polls have also found that the majority of people *don’t* want Congress or the admin to give up, though they don’t want them to forget about jobs either.
 

Posted by: progressive mama | February 23, 2010, 11:45 pm 11:45 pm

They’ve looked down upon the American people with such arrogant conceit
___
Actually, if you want to read about arrogant conceit– and pure disregard of the best interests of the country, check out a post at a blog called The Moderate Voice (TMV) “Is GOP planning scorched earth response if Democrats use reconciliation?”

Posted by: progressive mama | February 23, 2010, 11:49 pm 11:49 pm

I do see inflation as a real threat once the economy starts moving.

I’m not aware of a sensible person who doesn’t, including the President. He’s spoken about this many times. In fact, since early in 2009 he was explaining that we need shoot money into the economy to jumpstart a recovery– and then when the recovery gets some legs, we need to start working on the deficit to avoid choking inflation. Right now, however, we have mass unemployment (and inflation isn’t a problem yet).

Posted by: progressive mama | February 24, 2010, 12:27 am 12:27 am

“Its really hard to take people who don’t get the big picture and try to protect Wall Street and Republicans all that seriously.”
It is really hard to take people who don’t get the big picture and don’t realize that (a.) Wall Street contributed far more to Obama and Democrat candidates than Republicans, (b.) Goldman Sachs essentially has an subsidiary located in the WH given the GS alums in the Obama Administration, (c.) Obama is very chummy with Wall Street CEOs such as Jamie Dimon (Obama does not “begrudge” his pay, Dimon was selected to attend WH “business summit” to be held Wednesday) all that seriously. Despite the populist outrage, Obama is in Wall Street’s (the “chosen” firm’s) back pocket.
“Investing in education right now is critical for our nation. Bringing US educational attainment up to the level of Finland would result in GDP gains…”
Typicaly Lib-think: Throw other people’s money at a problem and all will be well. Has it not been proven over and over again that this is a losing strategy?
“Is GOP planning scorched earth response if Democrats use reconciliation?”
“”…and then when the recovery gets some legs, we need to start working on the deficit to avoid choking inflation.”
Is The One’s idea of “working on the deficit” entail TRILLION dollar deficits as far as the eye can see?
Bush and his $400 trillion deficits (for which I criticized him roundly) appear to be the good ol’ days given Obama’s unbridled enthusiasm for spending other people’s money.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 2:46 am 2:46 am

“Is GOP planning scorched earth response if Democrats use reconciliation?”
How is this (“scorched earth response”) different from the Democrats use of reconciliation?

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 2:49 am 2:49 am

“Steele has taken in less money than his predecessors and spent twice as much on things like car services, charter flights and fancy meals– while his party is giving fiscal responsibility a heckuva lot of lip service and trying to pretend they’ve changed.”
I don’t contribute to the RNC, so I could care less how they spend their money (I prefer to contribute directly to individual candidates). I am part of the 40% of Americans who are “net” tax payers and do care how the government spends my money. Which is why (along with millions like me) are outraged at the explosive and irresponsible spending of the Obama Administration and which is why millions of us will be donating directly to candidates who support (and demonstrate) conservative principle and storming the ballot box in November.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 3:14 am 3:14 am

How is this (“scorched earth response”) different from the Democrats use of reconciliation?
Posted by: tjp612 | Feb 24, 2010 2:49:07 AM
The scorched earth response keeps the senate in gridlock, accomplishing nothing. Americans deserve an up down vote, and then a Congress that can function and move on to other issues.
Reconciliation is a practice that has been used 21 times since 1981, usually by Republicans for items in the Contract for America agenda and, with misrepresentation, for the tax Bush cuts. Its intent is the opposite of scorched earth. Scorched earth grinds everything to a halt and brinds everything down. Reconciliation wraps things up so the Senate can move on and do its job.
Scorched earth is particularly sinister at a time of mass unemployment and two wars.

Posted by: progressive mama | February 24, 2010, 8:55 am 8:55 am

Posted by: tjp612 | Feb 24, 2010 2:46:34 AM
If you even took a quick glance at the article I was talking about you’d realize how ridiculous your post is as Goldman Sachs is on it, as are several Democrats. Hysterical hyperpartisan posturing doesn’t further debate, or render one credible. And if you deny that greed had anything to do with the meltdown, you’re in denial. LOL.
As for “libs”, this country was founded on liberal ideals I believe in. And Democrats have a much better record on fiscal responsibility and job creation. Going way back.

Posted by: progressive mama | February 24, 2010, 9:03 am 9:03 am

tjp612,
You may also want to stay current. Just this morning there’s an article at WaPo called “Wall street shifting political contributions to Republicans”:
“Commercial banks and high-flying investment firms have shifted their political contributions toward Republicans in recent months amid harsh rhetoric from Democrats about fat bank profits, generous bonuses and stingy lending policies on Wall Street… House Minority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) told reporters this month that he was urging Wall Street executives to “help our team” oppose the “bizarre policies” coming out of the Obama administration. ”
You can also go back and read articles on the Republicans coordinating their bill killing efforts with lobbyists to defeat financial regulation reform.

Posted by: progressive mama | February 24, 2010, 9:24 am 9:24 am

One more thing on reconciliation. If you follow Jake Tapper on twitter, he links to a post at NPR called “Health care no stranger to reconciliation” which points out that most health reform has passed via reconciliation: TEFRA, COBRA, CHIP, a hospice benefit for Medicare, adding cancer screenings to Medicare, Welfare reform separating Medicaid from welfare.
The point being, its not unprecedented. The majority should be allowed to move things.
You never know. The summit could be useful, and the Republicans could actually step up and get things you like in the bill. They probably won’t vote for the bill regardless, but let’s say they get better malpractice reform in there that protects both physicians and patients and takes on ways to reduce defensive medicine, plus more choice through Health Savings Accounts and the ability for people to buy insurance across state lines — but with federal minimum standards so we do not get the race to the bottom that we experienced with credit cards.Then there will be even more provisions the American people want and support. It would be silly to let those in insurers’ pockets to halt progress and reform.

Posted by: progressive mama | February 24, 2010, 10:09 am 10:09 am

Time to hoist the “Mission Accomplished” banner high above the deck of the USS Hope-n-Change! From the AP:
—Sales of new homes plunged to a RECORD LOW in January, underscoring the formidable challenges facing the housing industry as it tries to recover from the worst slump in decades.
The Commerce Department reported Wednesday that new home sales dropped 11.2 percent last month to a seasonally adjusted annual sales pace of 309,000 units, the LOWEST LEVEL ON RECORDS going back nearly a half century. The big drop was a “surprise” to economists who had expected sales would rise about 5 percent over December’s pace.—

Posted by: We Rescued the Economy! | February 24, 2010, 10:36 am 10:36 am

tjp612 | Feb 24, 2010 2:46:34 AM
tjp612 – are you one of them thar Libertarians?
A woman who has worked with Ron Paul, Debra Medina, is running for Texas Governor. She suggests 9/11 was somehow a government conspiracy. Does not help boost the credibility factor re: Libertarian thinking.
I’m very curious. Do you think there’s a New World Order conspiracy afoot?

Posted by: CenterOne | February 24, 2010, 12:26 pm 12:26 pm

Here’s a thought…Get off the health care issue and back on the economic issues…take some of that 1 Trillion dollars divide it among the LEGAL American tax payers to SPEND on debt obligations….or…cars…..or education expenses…or….bills….or real estate or… even health care insurance… and use the rest to pay down our national debt….It has become painfully obvious that Obama is simply using this health care bill to create a legacy as Gore tried to do with global warming…..

Posted by: Parallax View | February 24, 2010, 12:32 pm 12:32 pm

tjp612 | Feb 24, 2010 2:46:34 AM posted:
“Typically Lib-think: Throw other people’s money at a problem and all will be well. Has it not been proven over and over again that this is a losing strategy?”
You can download the economic strategy for increasing our GDP via education: “The High Cost of Low Educational Performance”. While changing educational institutions and policy is generally a difficult task, the report says the gains outweigh the cost.
Even David Brooks (far from Mr. “Lib-think”) promotes educational attainment as the best possible way to add more tax payers, stronger competition in a global economy, and less government handouts for future generations. Isn’t that what we all want regardless of our politics?

Posted by: CenterOne | February 24, 2010, 12:38 pm 12:38 pm

Posted by: We Rescued the Economy! | Feb 24, 2010 10:36:13 AM “Sales of new homes plunged to a RECORD LOW in January.”
Seriously, did you expect US housing sales to zoom back up to the level we experienced when anyone who fogged a mirror was handed an adjustable rate mortgage? This was a MASSIVE fantasy that’s not returning any time soon.
There is also the difficulty of obtaining new financing to contend with, as well as the coming onslaught of new foreclosures. Regardless who is in the White House, some analysts suggest we will not see the final bottom of the housing market until sometime in 2013.

Posted by: CenterOne | February 24, 2010, 12:54 pm 12:54 pm

.Get off the health care issue and back on the economic issues..
Turns out health care is an economic issue. Perhaps you’re unaware of the fact that health care costs, about 17-18% of the gross domestic product, are likely to rise to 34% in 30 years if left unchecked, affecting the federal deficit, businesses and the people of America.

Posted by: progressive mama | February 24, 2010, 12:55 pm 12:55 pm

“The scorched earth response keeps the senate in gridlock, accomplishing nothing.”
With Obama/Reid/Pelosi in control I would submit “doing nothing” is a far preferable option vs. execution of the statist agenda of these 3.
“As for “libs”, this country was founded on liberal ideals I believe in.”
Thank you for correction. I should have stated “progressives”.
“And Democrats have a much better record on fiscal responsibility and job creation.”
Even if true (which is questionable), Obama The Incompetent is on track to become the most fiscally irresponsible president ever (in fact, he may already be given that the federal deficits incurred by The One may already exceed those of Bush 43). Furthermore, I would expect that more jobs will lost during his tenure since the Great Depression.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 1:09 pm 1:09 pm

Perhaps, you are unaware, progressive mama, that 25 percent of all mortgages held today are underwater; as well as,the current foreclosure rate has hit an all time historic high…..Perhaps, with your line of thinking, Obama should be buying everyone, in distress, a new house, free and clear, at the expense of the taxpayers who currently are employed and paying taxes, struggling to keep their heads above water…wait for it…all in the name…uh saving????? Where is the savings in spending 1 Trillion (probably higher) with a capital T on another social program….Thankfully most people aren’t buying that line of spin.. and it is failing by proof of the voters…

Posted by: Parallax View | February 24, 2010, 1:11 pm 1:11 pm

“tjp612 – are you one of them thar Libertarians? I’m very curious. Do you think there’s a New World Order conspiracy afoot?”
No and No. Honestly, I’m not even sure what a “New World Order conspiracy” is.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 1:13 pm 1:13 pm

“Isn’t that what we all want regardless of our politics?”
The continuing slide in academic performance, test scores, and graduation rates cannot be directly correlated with decreases in educational funding (in fact, it is quite the opposite – funding has increased while performance has decreased).
Throwing money at the problem will not improve the situation unless other measures are taken concurrently (namely, increasing accountability of teachers, expansion of “competitive” options for students (e.g., charter schools, vouchers, etc.), etc.).

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 1:17 pm 1:17 pm

“Even David Brooks (far from Mr. “Lib-think”)…”
David Brooks is far from Mr. “Conservative-Think” from my point-of-view. Perhaps from a NY Times perspective he appears “conservative” but he is not from a main-stream conservative standpoint.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 1:20 pm 1:20 pm

” Perhaps you’re unaware of the fact that health care costs, about 17-18% of the gross domestic product, are likely to rise to 34% in 30 years if left unchecked, affecting the federal deficit, businesses and the people of America.”
Have you noticed the correlation to increases in health-care costs vs. increases in the government’s share of total healthcare spend?

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 1:21 pm 1:21 pm

Posted by: tjp612 | Feb 24, 2010 1:09:19 PM
Very interesting that you are not a Libertarian, yet also criticize GW Bush’s depletion of the budget surplus and massive expansion of federal deficits. It’s eight years of those Supply Side economics that contributed to this mess.
Keep in mind that President Obama took office roughly one year after this Recession began. There was NO job creation engine in place. Our nation had just completed the WORST history for creating new jobs since records have been kept. goggle the WSJ report on Bush era jobs – a pathetic 3 Million net in EIGHT YEARS.
Even the most conservative economists agree the economy had reached a point where stimulus spending was critical to prime the pump. We’ll continue to see debate over how much and how long, but without stimulus spending we’d be in the Hurt Locker.

Posted by: CenterOne | February 24, 2010, 1:28 pm 1:28 pm

Perhaps, with your line of thinking, Obama should be buying everyone, in distress, a new house, free and clear, at the expense of the taxpayers who currently are employed and paying taxes, struggling to keep their heads above water…wait for it…all in the name…uh saving?????

It would be intellectually amusing to watch you try to contort that ridiculous mess into alignment with my line of thinking. Of course, you’d have to understand my line of thinking and you seem more interested in stereotyping and foot stomping.
For the record, I think we were greedy (not me personally, but there were alot of folks involved– Wall Street, Main Street, CEOs, homebuilders– see Beazer Homes– real estate brokers, and on and on) and some people just have to suck it up and admit it and tighten their belts. But there are also people who were responsible and practical are under water now because the greedy dragged everyone down with them– and there was no oversight to prevent it all from happening.
I hardly think ignoring the facts when it comes to health care will reap better results. Not into magical thinking.
Kicking the can down the road doesn’t make the can disappear if you’re traveling down that same road.

Posted by: progressive mama | February 24, 2010, 1:30 pm 1:30 pm

“The Obama administration’s $787 billion stimulus bill created up to 2.1 million jobs during the final three months of last year, according to a new report from the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office.
“During the fourth quarter of 2009, the stimulus added “between 1.0 million and 2.1 million to the number of workers employed in the United States,” the CBO said.
“The stimulus also boosted the country’s economic growth by 1.5 to 3.5 percent during the time period and lowered the nation’s unemployment rate by between 0.5 and 1.1 percentage points.
__________________________________
Let’s see . . . stock market WAY up since Obama took office, hemorrhaging of hundreds of thousands of jobs stopped, millions of jobs created, many job saved, GDP back into the positive, and on and on . . .
Terrible news according to the Republicans . .. the Republicans are just so ‘perfect’ in all that they do.

Posted by: tierra | February 24, 2010, 1:33 pm 1:33 pm

Everyone agrees that we need some form of health care reform…we get that…but in the same time the house is burning down and President Obama is sitting in the corner with his Sears Christmas Catalog shopping for presents to buy for next year and years after that when in all likely hood he should be concentrating on putting out the house fire first…Again, it is beginning to look like our President is searching for his legacy…..And yes, it is not only the Dems who are guilty of this type of behavior……

Posted by: Parallax View | February 24, 2010, 1:36 pm 1:36 pm

Have you noticed the correlation to increases in health-care costs vs. increases in the government’s share of total healthcare spend?
Posted by: tjp612 | Feb 24, 2010 1:21:29 PM
Do you have a source I can look at? I read that CMS estimates that as as next year, the government could be paying for more than half of the nation’s total health care tab. Is that what you’re talking about?

Posted by: progressive mama | February 24, 2010, 1:37 pm 1:37 pm

Ya and …..whole sale prices raise twice as much as predicted….home sales lowest on record…congress approval at historic lows….blah blah blah……Vote Independent…….

Posted by: Parallax View | February 24, 2010, 1:43 pm 1:43 pm

tjp612 | Feb 24, 2010 1:17:54 PM posted “Throwing money at the problem will not improve the situation.” Educational attainment is a problem that is not cut and dry.
Graduation rates peaked in the 60s at 80%. Today, according to an educational advocacy group founded by Colin Powell, almost 1/2 of high school students in the 50 largest American largest cities do NOT graduate. This puts our country at risk, threatens our long term prospects, and widens the gap between rich and poor.
I encourage you to read economist James Heckman’s report called “Schools, Skills, and Synapses”. America’s educational decline is not because of falling school quality or tuition costs. The core problem starts much earlier – according to Heckman, it’s because of deteriorating family environments over the past 40 years. So what does our country do?
There are big gaps in educational attainment by age 5. Some kids are bathed in a family atmosphere that promotes education, but increasingly many are not. Heckman’s study shows it is possible by age 5 to predict who will complete college and who won’t.
I don’t think any American wants to “throw money” away, but this is an issue important enough to demand government intervention. For example, programs like Head Start are critical for these kids’ lives, for building future graduation rates, and to help our nation compete in a global economy.

Posted by: CenterOne | February 24, 2010, 1:45 pm 1:45 pm

progressive mama Contort???? How so….Home sales are at record lows…people need shelter, homelessness is increased by upwards of 15% depending upon which state you search, just as people need health care people need shelter…so if Obama is supplying health coverage to upwards of 31 million people who do not have health coverage why not supply all the people who are facing foreclosure and those who have lost their shelter new houses. Maybe if he supplied the mortgagee instead of the mortgagor (banks) I bet he could have saved the taxpayer just as much if not more than his health care program is going to save the taxpayer….OH WAIT…My bad, Obama did have a program called the “Mortgage Relief Program, but alas it was a dismal failure….Ya, ya Obama is searching for his “global warming” legacy……

Posted by: Parallax View | February 24, 2010, 2:05 pm 2:05 pm

“And Democrats have a much better record on fiscal responsibility and job creation.”
Even if true (which is questionable)”
ROFLMAO!
Facts apparently have a liberal bias.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 24, 2010, 2:07 pm 2:07 pm

progressive mama Contort???? How so….

You projected some wholly ridiculous thought– about giving away free houses– onto my line of thinking. Why? I have no idea. I guess your last post was an explanation but it didn’t work as I’m not interested in federally funded free health care for everyone, though I do think responsible communities ought to care for their poor– and some do so in truly amazing altruistic ways.
In any event, I was wrong. The contortions aren’t that intellectually amusing– they’re more slapstick.

Posted by: progressive mama | February 24, 2010, 2:39 pm 2:39 pm

“.whole sale prices raise twice as much as predicted.”
Sigh…whole sale INFLATION was higher than expected in January at 1.4%
Can you parrots at least get the BASIC facts right.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 24, 2010, 2:53 pm 2:53 pm

“Even the most conservative economists agree the economy had reached a point where stimulus spending was critical to prime the pump.”
I have less of an issue of whether or not a stimulus was necessary (personally I am not a believer in Keynesian theory), but I do have an issue regarding how the money was spent. After Obama claimed that 80% (90%?) of the jobs created due to the “stimulus” would be created in the private sector, even the most ardent Obama supporter can claim Obama has come even close to meeting this objective. Furthermore, a significant portion of “stimulus” went to bail-out state governments, effectively kicking the can down the road for another year. Lastly, favored constituencies benefited (e.g., public employee unions, etc.), spending has been used for very questionable projects (e.g., “researchers from the NY Psychiatric Institute study why gay men in Argentina have sex after drinking alcohol”, “$2,600,000 spent to train Chinese prostitutes to drink responsibly”, etc.) and other spending is generally not productive (I saw two different reports that estimated that “cash for caulkers” has resulted in average spnding per home for weatherization of $30k and $57k).
An economist I saw in a news report has estimated that if the $787 billion (revised to $862 billion) had been paid out at the U.S. annual median wage rate (I believe median) of ~$38k, 23 million jobs could have been “created”. The “stimulus” has been an abject failure.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 2:57 pm 2:57 pm

” I read that CMS estimates that as as next year, the government could be paying for more than half of the nation’s total health care tab. Is that what you’re talking about?”
Yes. Actually, from what I read we have already passed this point (govt. pays for more than 50% of all health expenditures).

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 2:59 pm 2:59 pm

“Heckman’s study shows it is possible by age 5 to predict who will complete college and who won’t. I don’t think any American wants to “throw money” away, but this is an issue important enough to demand government intervention.”
So why not just turn kids over to the government to raise?
“For example, programs like Head Start are critical for these kids’ lives”
Actually, the benefits of Head Start are at best inconclusive.
Homes are broken – How is the govt. going to fix this? It’s interesting that you not that graduation rates peaked in the 60s…. Know what else occurred in the 60s? The beginning of The Great Society.
The % of children raised by single parents (overwhelming mothers) has been increasing since the 60s (coincidence?). How is goverment going to fix this problem?
Can anyone argue that with the rise of entitlements there has been a rise in the degree of personal responsibility (e.g., children raised in single parent homes, decreasing graduation rates, etc.)?

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 3:06 pm 3:06 pm

Yes. Actually, from what I read we have already passed this point (govt. pays for more than 50% of all health expenditures).
Posted by: tjp612 | Feb 24, 2010 2:59:53 PM
______________________________________
Currently the health insurance industry skims off the cream from the young, the healthy and the employed – while the government is left to carry the sick, the old, the indigent and those damaged in war.

Posted by: tierra | February 24, 2010, 3:07 pm 3:07 pm

Those parrots being NPR (Ya, I agree with that)…Ummm that is where the stats, whole sale prices, originated…..guess that falls under the heading of …wait for it…”eating your own….LOL

Posted by: Parallax View | February 24, 2010, 3:09 pm 3:09 pm

“Throwing money at the problem will not improve the situation unless other measures are taken concurrently (namely, increasing accountability of teachers…”
It’s typical to denigrate the public school system by vilifying the teachers, who are under constant attack from all sides. How about increasing the accountability of students and their parents? Public schools are not intended to be just an elaborate day-care service.

Posted by: Skip | February 24, 2010, 3:10 pm 3:10 pm

“Facts apparently have a liberal bias.”
How do you measure this, Ryan C? How do you factor in the role of Congress? Of policies of prior Congresses and Administrations?
Surely you are intelligent enough that one cannot simply judge an economy based on who resides in the WH. When one party controls all levers of power (as is the case today), it is easier to make a case that the party is responsible for economic outcomes (good or bad). The past 2+ years have been disastrous from a fiscal responsibility/runaway spending standpoint (largest deficits – by far – in history). And guess who has been in charge of Congress? Democrats.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 3:11 pm 3:11 pm

“I do think responsible communities ought to care for their poor– and some do so in truly amazing altruistic ways.”
This is true. But historically, this was done at the local level by churches, individuals, and altruistic organizations. Now, the government has moved in. And just as with most everything else, government intervention is suboptimal/inefficient.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 3:14 pm 3:14 pm

“Currently the health insurance industry skims off the cream from the young, the healthy and the employed – while the government is left to carry the sick”
Who are “the sick”? I’ve been sick before and government didn’t care for me.
“…the old”
Yes, it’s a little program called “Medicare”
“…the indigent”
Is this correct? Typically these costs are paid out (in the end) by hospitals (some of which is written off, some of which is passed in the form of higher pricing).
“…and those damaged in war.”
Yes – By the Veterans Administration.
What’s your point?

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 3:18 pm 3:18 pm

“It’s typical to denigrate the public school system by vilifying the teachers, who are under constant attack from all sides.”
My parents are both teachers. They are frustrated by the lack of accountability of some of their colleagues.
“How about increasing the accountability of students and their parents?”
YES!

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 3:19 pm 3:19 pm

Health insurance companies see roughly 4 percent pure/net profit, not a 56-400 percentage profit gain like the libs are throwing out, but 4% profit with a 80-85% reimbursement rate…Sound unfair…NO…

Posted by: Parallax View | February 24, 2010, 3:35 pm 3:35 pm

(e.g., “researchers from the NY Psychiatric Institute study why gay men in Argentina have sex after drinking alcohol”, “$2,600,000 spent to train Chinese prostitutes to drink responsibly”, etc.) and other spending is generally not productive”
Yes both were grants approved by the NIH in 2008.
The NIH is an agency that is part of the Dept of Health & Human Services.
Which branch of government runs the Dept tjp?
And who was running that branch in 2008?

Posted by: Ryan C | February 24, 2010, 4:00 pm 4:00 pm

Posted by: tjp612 | Feb 24, 2010 3:06:27 PM
“Actually, the benefits of Head Start are at best inconclusive.”
According to what source? The Heritage Foundation? LOL! These so-called “think tanks” like The Cato Institute, the Reason Foundation, the Heritage Foundation are funded by just ONE far-right wing family owning the second largest privately held company in the United States.
Most Americans are totally unaware that these “think tanks” are shills to control Republican political perceptions and thereby promote Koch Industries, a major producer of oil, gas, timber, coal and cattle. The same billionaire family that founded The John Birch Society.
Check out this PDF: “Predicting Kindergarten Success for Economically Disadvantaged Head Start Children: A Latent Curve Analysis”. Results show reading, mathematics, and general knowledge of Head Start kids from families at or above the poverty level were consistently higher and statistically significant.

Posted by: CenterOne | February 24, 2010, 4:04 pm 4:04 pm

“That’s quite interesting since Cash for Caulkers has yet to implemented or even put into law. The lesson as always? Right wingers lie.”
There is a difference between a lie and an error. But the Leftist will never pass up an opportunity to
Thank you for the correction – I was referring to the “weatherization” program included within the stimulus:
(2/17/10) ABC News reports that at the end of 2009, only 9,100 have been weatherized to save energy through the American Reinvestment and Recovery Act. $522 million of the $5 billion has been spent thus far, which equates to over $57,000 per home.
—————————-
Another example of inefficent government and why it should not be trusted to spend taxpayer money effectively.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 4:25 pm 4:25 pm

Posted by: Parallax View | Feb 24, 2010 3:35:25 PM
Today, the House Energy and Commerce Health Subcommittee questioned Angela Braly of WellPoint.
Check out “Internal WellPoint e-mails reveal company increased premiums to maintain higher profits” (Think Progress)
The internal emails:
“The average increase is 23 percent and is intended to return California to a target profits of 7 percent, versus 5 percent this year.” [WellPoint email, October 7, 2009]
– “We’re asking for premiums that would put us $40 million favorable…if we get the increases on time, we will see an opt gain upside of $30 million downgrades and rate cap.” [WellPoint email, November 2, 2009]
– “[W]e needed to reach agreement on filing strategy quickly — specifically in the area of do we file wth a cushion allowed for negotiations.” [WellPoint email, 10/24/2009]
Also, take a gander at CEO and executive level pay and bonuses as well as lobbying expenses.
Health Care Renewable has a good post up today regarding Anthem. It really is worth a read for everyone. Dr Poses concludes,
“I submit that her company should no less have to address concerns about the transparency, honesty, and skill of its management, and how problems in these areas have driven up costs, decreased access, threatened quality, and demoralized health care professionals than do leaders of other health care organizations. At the moment, such concerns are at best peripheral to the ongoing debate on health care reform in the US. I suggest they ought to be central.”
But you have to check out the long list of transparency, ethics, and management issues listed in the blog post, and really learn more about what you’re attempting to defend.

Posted by: progressive mama | February 24, 2010, 4:33 pm 4:33 pm

“Yes both were grants approved by the NIH in 2008.”
Got sloppy. I don’t condone this spending regardless of who is sitting in the WH or who is running Congress (BTW – did a Democrat-led Congress approve this funding?).
How about these?
> Indiana University professors received $221,355 in economic stimulus funds to study why young men do not like to wear condoms.
> The NIH is using stimulus funds ($219,000) to follow female college students for a year to determine whether young women are more likely to hookup – the college equivalent of casual sex – after drinking alcohol.
> The University of Minnesota received nearly $200,000 to study the impact of sex reversal in mice.
> USC School of Social Work professor Suzanne Wenzel received nearly $2 million in stimulus money to help understand the sexual risk behavior of homeless men and their attitudes toward women.
Shall I go on? Or has the point been made?
I’m sure the unemployed are comforted government funding is going to these critical studies.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 4:34 pm 4:34 pm

“The average increase is 23 percent and is intended to return California to a target profits of 7 percent, versus 5 percent this year.” [WellPoint email, October 7, 2009]”
Isn’t it somewhat ironic that Progressives demonize private companies who raise prices (many times to cover increased costs) yet push for tax increases to cover increased government spending…
BTW: Wellpoint’s 2009 net profit was 7.3#. To provide some perspective, McDonald’s was 20.0%, Microsoft’s was 24.9%, and Obama’s buddies at Goldman Sachs turn a 25.9% profit.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 5:02 pm 5:02 pm

“The average increase is 23 percent and is intended to return California to a target profits of 7 percent, versus 5 percent this year.” [WellPoint email, October 7, 2009]”
Isn’t it somewhat ironic that Progressives demonize private companies who raise prices (many times to cover increased costs)”
So Wellpoint is raising premium 23% for a an increase in profit margin from 5% to 7%.
Or Wellpoint just raised premiums to increase their profit margin by over 70%.
Not to “cover costs” as tjp dishonestly posits.
BTW Wellpoint’s profit in 2009 was up 63% from 2008 if you leave out the sale of a subsidiary.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 24, 2010, 5:19 pm 5:19 pm

“Got sloppy”
Of course you got sloppy.
Because it wasn’t an original thought.
You were just parroting something you heard/read without any idea of the story behind it.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 24, 2010, 5:26 pm 5:26 pm

“Of course you got sloppy. Because it wasn’t an original thought. You were just parroting something you heard/read without any idea of the story behind it.”
Honestly, it is getting very difficult to keep track of all the programs Obama/Reid/Pelosi have dreamt up to squander tax payer money (you know – the tax payer money for which you advocate the government needs more, through higher taxes).

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 5:54 pm 5:54 pm

(you know – the tax payer money for which you advocate the government needs more, through higher taxes).”
Yes.
I also called for changes not just to discretionary spending but the 2/3 of our budget that is not discretionary, Defense, MediCare/MediCaid & Social Security.
We have massive debt, higher taxes and reduced spending are the only way to alleviate that.
Do you lack the courage to call for higher taxes?
I could understand if you were afraid you’ll lose your job doing so.

Posted by: Ryan C | February 24, 2010, 6:24 pm 6:24 pm

“Do you lack the courage to call for higher taxes?”
Why give more tax money to a recklessly spending government? It’s like giving money to a drug-addicted panhandler.

Posted by: tjp612 | February 24, 2010, 7:20 pm 7:20 pm

To provide some perspective, McDonald’s was 20.0%, Microsoft’s was 24.9%, and Obama’s buddies at Goldman Sachs turn a 25.9% profit.
Posted by: tjp612 | Feb 24, 2010 5:02:05 PM
To provide some perspective, Wellpoint violated state law over 700 times in a three year period for not paying claims in a timely manner, engages in improper recision, and has a record of mismanagement and unethical behavior– all while spending money on lobbying and bonuses and increasing profit.
Meanwhile, small groups and individual policy holders feel trapped and caught in a net.
Not calling them on it and their (as well as companies like them) part in the broken health care system is absurd. I don’t think its wise to bury our heads in the sand yet again.

Posted by: progressive mama | February 24, 2010, 8:47 pm 8:47 pm

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