Catholics Split Over Health Care

Who are you going to believe? On the one hand you have the bishops who are the ones covering up and protecting pedophiles, and on the other you have the mass of Catholics. Tough choice there.
The wackadoodle right has two problems with this. 1) the Hyde amendment has to be renewed periodically, and they are scared to death that it wont be someday, and 2) the bill allows people to purchase abortion coverage with their own money if they choose to.
Now we will start to see who on the right is a real libertarian and who is simply a Republican hack pretender.

Obama is alive and well in the 1960′s fighting for civil rights and his place in history. The USA be dammed!!

The basic rule of the catholic church is that a person must act according to his/her conscience REGARDLESS of outside influence, including bishops when they are seen as wrong. The bishops can teach but the ADULTS must decide and vote their conscience. These nuns are brave catholics, like Kennedy, Biden, Pelosi and Sebelius, who are following this rule; they have clearly demonstrated their right and obligation to stand up to the bishops and fight for what they see as right.

What a crap article by Christina Capatides. To somehow imply that authority to speak for the Catholic faith is in question… someone hasn’t been paying attention to the last 2 thousand years.
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Then to go on and report “seniors are against it, but then AARP endorses it. Our friends on the other side say doctors are against it, but the American Medical Association endorses it”. AARP is losing membership right and left because it doesn’t speak for seniors, but thinks it does. And the AMA does not speak for doctors. Check your local town and see how many doctors belong to the AMA. Not many…. so they sure don’t speak for all doctors.
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Someone is taking great liberties with the truth.

In a news report: “Denver Archbishop Charles Chaput complained that Network and the Catholic Health Association “have done a grave disservice to the American Catholic community by undermining the leadership of the nation’s Catholic bishops, sowing confusion among faithful Catholics, and misleading legislators through their support of the Senate bill.” ”
Sorry, Arch. Chaput, but the nuns are not “undermining the leadership of the nation’s Catholic bishops”; the bishops have done that to themselves by taking extreme positions on issues about which sincere people can have differences, and by publicly rebuking catholic politicians trying to do their job in a 200 year old secular, pluralistic democracy. This was abundantly demonstrated with your full-court-press to stop the election of President Barack Obama, which led to catholics voting for President Obama in higher numbers than the general population. The catholics put President Obama in office!!
Sorry, Arch. Chaput, but the bishops lost their influence in that election and are now clearly losing their influence on this major piece of legislation, Health Care Reform.
The basic rule of the catholic church is that a person must act according to his/her conscience REGARDLESS of outside influence, which includes bishops when they are wrong. The Bishops can teach but the ADULTS must decide and vote their conscience. The nuns are brave catholics, like Kennedy, Biden, Pelosi and Sebelius, who are following this rule; they have clearly demonstrated their right and obligation to stand up to the bishops and fight for what they see as right.

Zaggs wrote:
“If the senate bill barred funds for abortion why not include the Stupak amendment?”
EXACTLY!!!
The Obama administration wants the Senate bill to include abortion. Why else would they refuse to include the Stupak language? The pro-life democrats are the last hurdle to the bill’s passage. If the Obama administration really cared about health care reform, they would ensure the bill’s passage by including the Stupak language. It just goes to show that the Senate bill is not a health care bill, but rather an undercover abortion bill.
Sad.

USCCB released this statement:
“A recent letter from Network, a social justice lobby of sisters, grossly overstated whom they represent in a letter to Congress that was also released to media.
Network’s letter, about health care reform, was signed by a few dozen people, and despite what Network said, they do not come anywhere near representing 59,000 American sisters.
The letter had 55 signatories, some individuals, some groups of three to five persons. One endorser signed twice.
There are 793 religious communities in the United States.
The math is clear. Network is far off the mark. ”
So, 59,000 nuns do not endorse this, more like 59 (and that’s giving them a couple extra!).
“These nuns are brave catholics, like Kennedy, Biden, Pelosi and Sebelius, who are following this rule; they have clearly demonstrated their right and obligation to stand up to the bishops and fight for what they see as right.”
Posted by: RCharles | Mar 19, 2010 9:37:19 PM
As for these “brave” Catholics – if they were brave, they would be standing up for what the church believes, not what they personally have decided is best. There are many other churches that would welcome them with open arms for their beliefs. They do not stand for the Catholic Church and what she believes. They stand for themselves, nothing else.

The AMA is for health reform. Seriously? Why don’t you all look past the organization name an look at who/what they are. The AMA has in it’s membership less than 1 in 5 of the nation’s practicing physicians. They’ll pump their numbers by including retired physicians, who by the way, will not be affected by any reform. As an aside, the decision makers at the AMA (i.e., the Board) rake in $300,000 a year for their AMA position alone so any “reform” sous have no immediate fiscal impact on any of them. The AMA is a shell of an organization it once was and doesn’t come close to representing anywhere near the majority of “practicing” physicians. You know, those under 60 who actually see patients full-time and will have to live under this fraud in the future.

The USCCB released this statement on March 15, 2010:
“. . . the bishops were left disappointed and puzzled to learn that the basis for any vote on health care will be the Senate bill passed on Christmas Eve. Notwithstanding the denials and explanations of its supporters, and unlike the bill approved by the House of Representatives in November, the Senate bill deliberately excludes the language of the Hyde amendment. It expands federal funding and the role of the federal government in the provision of abortion procedures. In so doing, it forces all of us to become involved in an act that profoundly violates the conscience of many, the deliberate destruction of unwanted members of the human family still waiting to be born.”

With 55% of Americans opposed to this bill, the Democrats are not only shaking their fist at the American people, they’re also shaking their fists at God with Pelosi refusing to remove abortion provisions.
Pelosi is not only misrepresenting Americans, but she’s further misrepresenting Catholicism.

RCharles,
So a few liberal nuns have a right to follow their conscience but the Catholic bishops don’t? Just because the health care bill is INTENDED to do good doesn’t mean that you can JUSTIFY the slaughter of unborn childen by abortion in the process. The bishops’ condemnation of the bill is in accord with the teaching of the Church.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says:
“A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation.” (1753)
In this case the innocent person is the unborn child that could be killed by federal taxdollars should the Senate bill pass.
Whose doctrine do you expect us Catholics to follow–your own or that of the Catholic Church?

Maybe the Catholics should start focusing on some “internal issues” (abuse scandals for one) instead of kowtowing to Obama. I know there is a political calculation by some: support Obama in the Obamacare and then Obama will support Catholic Church policy on granting criminal aliens amnesty. But you shouldn’t ignore core beliefs simply to please Obama or to help illegals. Obama is NOT the Pope. No reason to kiss his ring or obey him. Even if he calls himself “The One”.

I found the fact that the bishops had the opposite view of the nuns and Catholic hospitals on the health care reform bill very telling.
The nuns and hospitals favor this bill because they are ‘in the trenches,’ directly dealing with the public. They understand the depth of suffering due to 46 million Americans lacking health insurance, 45,000 of whom die every year.
The bishops on the other hand, are far removed from suffering, insulated much like a ceo of a company, not understanding the needs of its company’s workers or even how the work gets done on the work floor.
I am so proud of the nuns and the hospitals for going public with the truth as they see it, despite the repercussions of displeasing their ‘bosses’, the bishops. They speak the truth that this bill will do so much needed good for the American people.

Posted by: Lydia | Mar 20, 2010 6:56:08 PM
Do you know what’s in the bill? As far as I can tell, not many people actually know what’s in the bill – including those that will be voting on it tomorrow. The Bishops are very much in favor of healthcare – if the language regarding abortion is changed. That is the only thing stopping them from endorsing this bill. I find it very telling that you are willing to judge people without all the facts. And to use your reasoning, no one, from President Obama on down can make a true decision regarding healthcare because they are not “in the trenches”.
“Pat, this bill doesn’t support abortion. That is a vicious rumor started by those who want this bill to fail for reasons that have nothing to do with better health care for the American people. It is simply a lie that this bill in any way uses federal dollars for abortions.”
Posted by: Lydia | Mar 20, 2010 6:58:08 PM
You’re kidding, right? Everyone knows the abortion language is in there. Why do you think Planned Parenthood is being so quiet about this? If there wasn’t funding for abortion, PP would be screaming their heads off. It’s there – do some research.

while catholics, and whatever version of the worshipers of Jesus might care about, or bishops and nuns or other invisible beings,, the rest of us in a free society prefer non-interference by religious dogma in the way the government works (or not works), I don’t want the religious making my medical decisions

Posted by: Pat | Mar 20, 2010 3:59:04 PM
“So a few liberal nuns have a right to follow their conscience but the Catholic bishops don’t? Just because the health care bill is INTENDED to do good doesn’t mean that you can JUSTIFY the slaughter of unborn childen by abortion in the process. The bishops’ condemnation of the bill is in accord with the teaching of the Church.”
Sorry, you are still WRONG, WRONG, WRONG
Not just the nuns but all catholics, liberal and conservative, must live by their conscience. But the bishops are protesting abortion support while many folks – politicians, nuns, catholics and others – all believe the Senate bill adequately protects against government funds for abortions. It’s a power play for the bishops – trying to show they can influence elections and legislation. But they lost this fight when the catholic vote put President Barack Obama in office, and they will lose the fight to stop health care reform.
The teachings of the church are in constant debate; there are many catholics beyond the nuns who think passing the legislation will produce more good than evil. And many of those people do not accept that abortion is always and everywhere a bad thing. Consider this: about 40% of all normally created embryos are aborted by nature: too late in the cycle, hormone issues, whatever. This is not done by man but by nature, invented by your god, so these are “god approved” abortions. Thousands of viable embryos dumped, aborted, every day by nature and nature’s god.
Cheers!
RCharles

I love the nuns and hospitals who dared incur the wrath of the bishops by disagreeing with them over the health care reform bill.
The nuns and hospital staff see first hand the destructive nature of our health insurance system. 45,000 Americans die every year because they couldn’t afford health insurance. And how many thousands more suffer every day because they can’t afford the treatments and/or medicine that would keep them well.
We need our legislators to be as brave as those nuns and hospital administrators and vote yes on this bill.

Posted by: Lydia | Mar 21, 2010 4:03:57 PM
Posted by: Flash Override | Mar 21, 2010 4:07:34 PM
If abortion was not covered, why issue an executive order?
From ABC News/Politics Health Care Reform:
“Anti-abortion Democrats, led by Rep. Bart Stupak, have struck a deal with the House Democratic leadership to vote for the health care bill in exchange for an executive order from President Obama reaffirming there will be no federal funding for abortion.
President Obama makes final pitch to pass health care bill for Americans. “I’m pleased to announce that we have an agreement,” the Michigan Democrat said shortly after the White House released a statement announcing the executive order. “We have assurances from the president and others that he will not rip this up tomorrow.”
Just before making the announcement, Stupak had told House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., on the House floor that he would vote “yes” on the health care bill, sources told ABC News.
Anti-abortion Democrats had been hesitant to commit their support unless a deal was struck, but the executive order guarantees that the House Democratic leadership will have enough votes to pass the health care legislation.
“We’re well past 216,” Stupak told reporters, referring to the minimum number of votes House Democrats need to pass the bill.
The executive order will provide “additional safeguards to ensure that the status quo is upheld and enforced,” White House Communications Director Dan Pfeiffer said in a statement.
The president’s order is to ensure that current law that restricts federal funding from going toward abortion, known as the Hyde amendment, is maintained. It will extend those restrictions to the new health insurance exchanges, a marketplace in which people would be able shop for and compare insurance plans.
“It is necessary to establish an adequate enforcement mechanism to ensure that federal funds are not used for abortion services,” the executive order states.”
So, do you think this was done just to appease the pro-life Democrats? Or maybe, just maybe, there was language in the bill that allowed federal funding for abortion? As for anyone quoting a page number, there has been specific language quoted from the bill regarding possible loopholes or funding for abortion.
Again, I say to all of you who disagree – don’t you think the Pro-Abortion crowd would be screaming bloody murder if abortion were NOT covered in this bill?
Kathleen Sebuelius says:
“”There is no federal money paying for abortions,” President Barack Obama’s top health care spokeswoman maintained. “That’s just not my statement, it is what, you know, a legal analyst who has looked at the Senate bill, it’s what the fact checkers who look at the statements say.”
Yet, when she spoke with ABC’s “This Week” program yesterday, she said “Yes, abortion services are provided” under the Senate health care bill.
She tried to qualify her answer by adding, “people will pay out of their own pockets, in both the Senate and the House, but they do it in slightly different ways.”
But in an interview on December 21 with pro-abortion BlogHer blogger Morra Aarons-Mele, Sebelius praised the Senate language that funds abortions and talked about how everyone would be forced to pay for them.
“And I would say that the Senate language, which was negotiated by Senators Barbara Boxer and Patty Murray, who are very strong defenders of women’s health services and choices for women, take a big step forward from where the House left it with the Stupak amendment, and I think do a good job making sure there are choices for women, making sure there are going to be some plan options [that pay for abortions],” Sebelius said then.
During that December interview, Sebelius agreed the language purportedly banning abortion funding in the Senate bill is merely an “accounting procedure” and that everyone would pay into the abortion fund.
“There would be an accounting procedure, but everybody in the exchange would do the same thing, whether you’re male or female, whether you’re 75 or 25, you would all set aside a portion of your premium that would go into a fund, and it would not be earmarked for anything. It would be a separate account that everyone in the exchange would pay,” Sebelius admitted about the abortion funding.
“It is a bit confusing. But it’s really an accounting measure that would apply across the board, and not just to women, and certainly not just to women who want to choose abortion coverage,” she said then.”

I am disgusted that any catholic would support abortion for any reason, nationalized healthcare at the cost of innocent life ? Morals please. Planned parent hood is not non profit.. research it people… making money killing babies..disgusting!!And now we are paying for it.

A handful of heretical nuns
Posted by: Nrphron
bring back the Inquisition and ‘burning at the stake’, maybe we can still tell whose truthful by seeing who floats or sinks….
keep your catholic doctrine, or whatever out of my government, if the church wants to play politics (not that it would be the 1st time) take away the tax exemption, and own up to being the lobbying group it actually is