Counting on Numbers: The White House’s New Numbers Campaign on Health Care

ZAGGS – I BELIEVE RECENT STATS RE HEALTH INSURANCE PROFITS LIST AVERAGES AROUND TWO POINT ONE PERCENT. NOT EXACTLY WHAT OBAMA AND FRIENDS ARE THROWING OUT. THEY USE BIG DOLLAR FIGURES TO ATTACK THE HEALTH INS INDUSTRY, BUT OMIT THE PERCENTAGE OF PROFIT. I THINK IN RANKINGS, THE INDUSTRY COMES IN AT THIRTY-FOUR – PRETTY FAR DOWN THE LIST OF “FAT CAT” INDUSTRIES.

Over the past year of debate, 10 broad ideas have been offered for bending the health-care cost curve. The Democrats’ proposed legislation incorporates virtually every one of them.
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Interesting . .. I wonder what ‘virtually’ means.

A majority of Americans supports comprehensive health care reform– and a healthy portion of the opposition to the current bill comes from the left, that wants more done, not less
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Yes, it’s interesting that a significant per centage who say they ‘oppose’ the legislation actually think the legislation should go further towards single payer.
When you add together those who support the legislation with those who would support it if it went further towards single payer, a clear majority of Americans want the Democratic reforms or something more progressive.

I wonder what ‘virtually’ means.
Posted by: tierra | Mar 9, 2010 1:37:43 PM
Good wondering. He goes into it, but here’s a snip:
“So reform gets full credit on six of the 10 ideas, partial credit on three others, and no credit on one. The area of no credit (a public option) is because Republicans opposed the idea. One area receives only partial credit because of Democratic opposition (malpractice reform) and two other areas reflect general hesitancy to increase taxes (taxing Cadillac plans and taxing drivers of obesity).”
It would be easy to add a public option in the future.
Meanwhile, the best reason yet to pass health care reform: Rush Limbaugh claims he’ll move to Costa Rica!

Want some numbers? Here’s some interesting reading for everyone, an article by Jeffrey Anderson of National Review:
According to the most recent Fortune 500 rankings, health insurers are not even among the top-30 United States industries in profit-margin. Health insurers rank 35th, with a profit-margin of just 2.2 percent — less than one-fifth the profit-margin of railroads. None of the ten largest American health insurers made profits of more than 4.5 percent, and two of them lost money. Health insurers’ collective profit-margin is less than one-eighth that of drug companies and less than one-seventh that of companies that sell medical products or equipment. It’s also less than that of medical facilities. Yet when was the last time you heard President Obama rail against greedy hospitals?
The combined profits of America’s ten largest health insurers are $8.3 billion. That’s less than two-thirds of the profits of Wal-Mart alone, less than half of the profits of General Electric alone, and less than one-seventh of what Medicare loses each year to fraud. Health insurers collectively have one-eighth the profit-margin of McDonald’s or Coke, one-ninth that of eBay, and one-fifteenth that of Merck.
Why don’t these much more profitable companies or industries need to be taken over by the federal government? Why don’t they need to be subjected to something like President Obama’s proposed Health Insurance Rate Authority, which would be run by the same U.S. Department of Health and Human Services that already loses $60 billion of taxpayer money to Medicare fraud each year? (Not that I want to give the Obama administration any ideas.)
In all, the combined profits of the 14 largest American health insurers (the ones who crack the Fortune 1000) are $8.7 billion. That’s less than 0.4 percent, or 1/250th, of overall U.S. health-care costs, which are $2.5 trillion.
Anyone but an ideologue could plainly see that insurance profits aren’t the problem. The problem is having a health-care system with too many middlemen (government or otherwise); too little competition and choice; and too little opportunity for Americans to control their own health-care dollars, shop for value, or even see prices.
If you can’t identify the problem, you aren’t likely to stumble upon the solution. Maybe that’s why the Congressional Budget Office says that, under Obamacare, which would cost $2.5 trillion in its real first decade (2014 to 2023), the average family’s insurance premiums in the individual market would increase by $2,100 in relation to current law — while under the House Republican health bill, which would cost $61 billion (just 2 percent as much as Obamacare), the average premiums would be reduced by 5 to 8 percent.
You can make up your own minds, but I just wanted to put articles such as this one up here to give a different perspective.

The combined profits of America’s ten largest health insurers are $8.3 billion. That’s less than two-thirds of the profits of Wal-Mart alone, less than half of the profits of General Electric alone
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It seems to me that health insurance profits being 2/3rds of Wal-Mart is not small potatoes. Nor is earning half the profits of General Electric. Those are huge, huge corporations who earn huge, huge profits.
As far as bringing hospital profits under control – why not?

Think Progress has a good post up about the health insurance industry’s push back. You can check it out in full, but here’s part of what I was getting out in my last post:
” the argument that insurers run a tight ship is misleading, on several counts, not least of which is the fact that insurers are planning to spend “more than $1 million” not on health care claims — as their justification for the premium hikes would suggest — but “to run television ads on cable stations nationwide beginning in the next few days to push back on the attacks on insurers.”
That $1 million ad fund will presumably come from the one penny that goes towards health care profits. But this too is misleading. Zirkelbach is clever enough to compare the private insurance industry’s administrative spending to national health care expenditures — 45 percent of which includes spending in Medicare, Medicaid and other public programs. In the context of total spending, insurers administrative costs may look small, but compared to the revenues of private insurers, administrative spending is seen as far more substantial. Insurers skim off 15-20 percent of premium dollars for administrative costs and profits which fund TV ad campaigns, Washington lobbyists, lavish company retreats and outlandish CEO salaries.”
And then there’s this, which gets at the question Shoe asked:
“[because]insurers have been able to increase their returns by purging sicker Americans from the rolls and pulling out of competitive markets, the President’s strong rhetoric is more than justified. The Senate bill will start forcing insurers to earn profit by figuring out ways to deliver quality care more efficiently and they’re not very interested in accepting these changes.”

IF THESE “LIGHT BULBS” HAD ANY BUSINESS SENSE THEY WOULD KNOW IT IS NOT ABOUT DOLLARS IS IS ABOUT NET PROFIT. AS I AND OTHERS HAVE POINTED OUT – THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY PROFITS ARE HOVERING AROUND TWO POINT TWO PERCENT AND THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE RANKS THIRTY-FOURTH IN TERMS OF NET PROFITS. UNFORTUNATELY, THE CURRENT ADM HAS ALMOST ZERO BUSINESS EXPERIENCE AND MOST ARE MENTALLY STUCK BACK IN THE CLASSROOM – INCLUDING OBAMA.

How ironic that while Obama is trying to get us on the European/Canadian bandwagon re health care, Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams decides to come to the USA for his heart procedure. Yes, he probably could have waited in line and had it done in Canada, but he also might not have survived the wait! I can see a no more perfect example against gov run heath care than this. Reform yes, but NO GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTH-CARE!!

IF THESE “LIGHT BULBS” HAD ANY BUSINESS SENSE THEY WOULD KNOW IT IS NOT ABOUT DOLLARS IS IS ABOUT NET PROFIT
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The combined profits of America’s ten largest health insurers are $8.3 billion. That’s less than two-thirds of the profits of Wal-Mart alone, less than half of the profits of General Electric alone
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It seems to me that health insurance profits being 2/3rds of Wal-Mart is not small potatoes. Nor is earning half the profits of General Electric. Those are huge, huge corporations who earn huge, huge profits.

Lydia – if what you say is accurate, even I would vote for that bill. I would like to see the issues you mentioned to be addressed – ALONG WITH TORT REFORM. Problem is, no matter how you read this, another bureaucracy will have to be set up to ADMINISTER these reforms which basically transforms into a gov run system. When you throw in the cost, doctors bailing out of the system, ins companies going under, and a marked drop in research – you have chaos in the making.

we will ALSO have rationing of health-care…… which means of course that some people will die waiting for treatment or just as likely – receive inferior care.
Posted by: Temagami | Mar 9, 2010 4:13:08 PM
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You already have terrible rationing of health care – many people already die waiting for treatment.

Hello progressive mama. Your last post on health care providers was a good point. That was mainly why I posted the article that I did earlier, to try to point out that this is not all insurance problems. There are many arms that need to be touched on.
I’d also like to point out that in that same article (that I posted), the writer points out that the average family’s insurance premiums in the individual market would increase by $2,100 in relation to current law — while under the House Republican health bill, which would cost $61 billion (just 2 percent as much as Obamacare), the average premiums would be reduced by 5 to 8 percent. IMO, that should be a bill killer just on it’s own.

Tierra. Where are people “dying” in the USA waiting for treatment? Examples? I live in the Cleveland, OH area and I can assured you that does NOT happen here. Of course there are always “fluke incidents,” but as a matter of course even those incidents are rare. If Obamna gets his way on health-care, I can also assure you that many docs are going to call it quits, creating rationing and us relying on many more foreign docs as does Europe.

As has been pointed out by others. The issue is NOT one of health care, it is one of health ins. They are not the same. Without health ins I could still go to a local hospital and have done whatever I needed to have done – AND HAVE IT DONE RIGHT AWAY!! I have experienced this. Sure, I am hounded to pay up later, but did I get care? YES!!!

Tierra – tell that to Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams. He would have to have waited in line in Canada for his heart procedure. Instead he came to the USA and received his procedure right away.

Tierra – tell that to Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams. He would have to have waited in line in Canada for his heart procedure.
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There are 45,000,000 ‘Danny Williams’ in America who will have to wait in line for their heart procedures – FOREVER.

Tierra, you were asked for examples. The question was:
“Where are people “dying” in the USA waiting for treatment? Examples?”
Examples, please ???

“Tierra – tell that to Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams. He would have to have waited in line in Canada for his heart procedure.”
Actually Danny Williams wanted a specialized procedure that would be less invasive for treating his ailment.
There was no line waiting, it was a specialized procedure done by few doctors.
Using his considerable personal wealth, he flew to the United States and paid out of pocket for his procedure.
IOW, if you’re wealthy we have an excellent health care system.
If you’re not wealthy, too bad.

“Manitu – you forgot something. Sara Palin was correct. As in Canada, we will ALSO have rationing of health-care”
We ration care right now genius.
The rationing is done on the basis of how much you are able to pay.

Tierra – These are examples? I could find you reams of similar examples. Problem is that there are always people who are not responsible for themselves or others who are in their care. IE – you are always going to have an element of tragedy. It should not be the Feds responsibility to monitor every individual, cradle to grave. Perhaps you think that it should – I don’t.

You’re not making a worthy comparison. You never do.
Posted by: smartlillena | Mar 9, 2010 5:57:31 PM
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Oh it’s a VERY worthy comparison – profits from the health insurance industry are HUGE in the same way the profits of General Electric or WalMart are HUGE. Those are mammoth corporations with mammoth profits – the health insurance industry is also mammoth, with mammoth profits.

Obama continues to lie about the CBO report. I had thought after Republicans read directly from that report at the health summit he would wise up, but apparently he still thinks he can continue lying with impunity.

The question was:
Tierra, where are people “dying” in the USA waiting for treatment?
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Just like your examples, people die everyday because they do not take care of themselves. Not one of those examples was of a person waiting for or being denied treatment. Now, people do honestly die awaiting transplants. Is obamma gonna fix that?

Did you know that if Obama gets his health-care passed, USA medical research and development will probably be lessened by at least 50 percent. These aren’t my figures.
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Oh yeah? Whose figures are these then? Source and date please.
And since when were health insurance companies responsible for the medical breakthroughs in the United States? Source and date please.

And since when were health insurance companies responsible for the medical breakthroughs in the United States? Source and date please.
Posted by: tierra
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Make up your mind. Are you talking health insurance or health care?

And since when were health insurance companies responsible for the medical breakthroughs in the United States? Source and date please.
Make up your mind. Are you talking health insurance or health care?
Posted by: smartlillena | Mar 9, 2010 6:43:24 PM
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Pay attention smarlillena – not me having the problems telling the difference.
Where is temagami’s answer? Trying to duck it?

“Did you know that if Obama gets his health-care passed, USA medical research and development will probably be lessened by at least 50 percent. These aren’t my figures.”
Of course they’re not your figures.
You’re a right wing parrot who can’t thin for themselves.
And here’s a test for that
How does health insurance reform stop medical innovation?

“Problem is that there are always people who are not responsible for themselves or others who are in their care”
Hey if Rush Limbaugh can get the best care after being drug abuser who is still very overweight even after his 3rd or 4th crash diet while smoking, then we all should get the same.

How does health insurance reform stop medical innovation?
Posted by: Ryan C | Mar 9, 2010 6:56:18 PM
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“Did you know that if Obama gets his health-care passed, USA medical research and development will probably be lessened by at least 50 percent.”
Posted by: Temagami | Mar 9, 2010 6:23:19 PM
Come on Temagami – you’re the one who made the claim; answer the question.
You’re full of hogwash. Where is your source and date for these lies of yours?

“THE INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MEDICAL R&D? NEWS TO ME!!”
Was this a name jack?
Because you were the one who claimed medical R&D would plummet with health insurance reform.

“Obama wants the health industry profits limited and controlled by the Fed. Take away profits and R&D goes south as big bucks are needed up front and often multiple years before profits are realized.”
Again what do health insurance company profits have to do with medical device innovation.

“Did you know that if Obama gets his health-care passed, USA medical research and development will probably be lessened by at least 50 percent.”
Posted by: Temagami | Mar 9, 2010 6:23:19 PM
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You’re full of hogwash. Where is your source and date for these lies of yours?

BUT THAT IS OK SINCE PELOSI THIS AFTERNOON SAID THAT ONCE THE BILL IS PASSED, WE WILL FIND OUT WHAT IS IN IT!!!!! THIS PERSON IS THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE? HELP!!”
When 1 right wing talking point fails, simply say another one.
Of course Speaker Pelosi was talking about the lies right wingers have told about this bill.
A fuller excerpt for context.
“You’ve heard about the controversies within the bill, the process about the bill, one or the other. But I don’t know if you have heard that it is legislation for the future, not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America, where preventive care is not something that you have to pay a deductible for or out of pocket. Prevention, prevention, prevention—it’s about diet, not diabetes. It’s going to be very, very exciting.
“But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy. Furthermore, we believe that health care reform, again I said at the beginning of my remarks, that we sent the three pillars that the President’s economic stabilization and job creation initiatives were education and innovation—innovation begins in the classroom—clean energy and climate, addressing the climate issues in an innovative way to keep us number one and competitive in the world with the new technology, and the third, first among equals I may say, is health care, health insurance reform. Health insurance reform is about jobs. This legislation alone will create 4 million jobs, about 400,000 jobs very soon.”
The real question is do you think for yourself or just belch out the headlines from Drudge?

Most of them are just playing the odds…. Maintaining a health policy is not easy and it is not cheap. If obamma has his way, it won’t be any easier, it will cost more and it will cover less.
Posted by: smartlillena | Mar 9, 2010 6:54:59 PM
First, do you have numbers and a source for that claim about “most” — and if so, does it go into how many have illnesses or injuries or some sort of pre-existing condition? Because based on my observations, sometimes bad things happen to good people — and sometimes good people lose their health care coverage, or slip between the cracks in other ways. And sometimes those good people have children… and so on and so forth. And sometimes I really wonder about the heartlessness of the Republican right, who are very worried about insurance company profits, but children and uninsureds?
Nah. Its all about responsibility until it happens to them or a loved one.
Also, how do you figure on the latter– yes, spell it out, because it flies in the face of what the CBO and experts say. Its the Republican plans that separate the healthy from the sick and make it more and more unaffordable and impossible for those of modest means though not yet poor and the sick to get affordable health care.
See TNR’s “Sink or Swim: The GOP’s Dickensian fix for health care.”
“What separates the two parties is not how far to go, but in which direction to go. The divide is simple. Democrats propose to shift resources from the rich and the healthy to the poor and the sick. Republicans want to do just the opposite. Republican health care plans reflect the party’s increasingly widespread belief that good health, like other forms of prosperity, is a matter of personal responsibility…Republicans boast that the CBO says their plan would reduce insurance premiums. This is true. The CBO predicted this would happen because the GOP plan would reduce premiums for healthy people, bringing more of them into the insurance pool, and raise premiums for sicker people, driving more of them out.
Why would Republicans favor a result like this? ” (Jonathan Chait.)
Good question. Personally, I think its because the party is depraved. (See torture.)

“JUST ONE QUESTION – WOULD YOU BUY HEALTH R&D STOCKS RIGHT NOW? NOT ME – HAVE AT IT!!”
Since you cannot distinguish between health insurance companies and medical device companies I would suggest avoiding investing altogether.
And biomed/medical device companies are on balance a good investment though of course anyone investing should check on the company they are investing in rather than reacting to unfounded fears and rumor mongering.

“But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy. Furthermore, we believe that health care reform, again I said at the beginning of my remarks, that we sent the three pillars that the President’s economic stabilization and job creation initiatives were education and innovation—innovation begins in the classroom—clean energy and climate, addressing the climate issues in an innovative way to keep us number one and competitive in the world with the new technology, and the third, first among equals I may say, is health care, health insurance reform. Health insurance reform is about jobs. This legislation alone will create 4 million jobs, about 400,000 jobs very soon.”
The real question is do you think for yourself or just belch out the headlines from Drudge?
Posted by: Ryan C | Mar 9, 2010 7:28:32 PM
Wow, Ryan C. You’re like a one-man fact check and truth squad. Brilliant.

“Wow, Ryan C. You’re like a one-man fact check and truth squad. Brilliant.”
Thanks.
This would be easier if right wingers actually followed the words made famous by Reagan, Trust but verify.
But I guess the right wing echo chamber is all the verification they bother with.

“CONTEXT? ISN’T THAT IN THE EAR IF THE BEHOLDER?”
I would agree that context is in the ear of the beholder.
Which is why its important to provide context versus just a snippet that can be framed as you want it to be understood.

That was supposed to be *meaning.

“The real question is do you think for yourself or just belch out the headlines from Drudge?”
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If you bothered to read the postings below you would know the Drudge belcher didn’t have a clue what he was talking about . ..

Actually, Pelosi’s words of wit made the rounds on TV and radio media. And, also I rarely listen to Drudge. Examining the “context” after, in no way does “context” explain her screw up. You libs need to expand your vocabulary beyond; context, lies, Drudge etc. Do you good. The Soviets made the “lie” famous to be applied to anything that they disagreed with. Sound familiar?

It matters not to me.
But this is the complete post I made to tierra:
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You speak of the uninsured as if they are beating doors down to purchase insurance. Some may honestly be. Most of them are just playing the odds. Were this obamanation/disaster to pass they will continue to play the odds, opting for the fine instead of the coverage. Maintaining a health policy is not easy and it is not cheap. If obamma has his way, it won’t be any easier, it will cost more and it will cover less.
Posted by: smartlillena

in no way does “context” explain her screw up.
Posted by: Temagami
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It doesn’t. It can’t. I was personally fixed on these last 7 words:
But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy

The public has pretty much debunked the rest of his arguments supporting the bill – mostly involving getting screwed on the costs.
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The gov’t wants to make people think this will work using a percentage of overall healthcare expenditures. That CAN NOT happen. The money is NOT there.

The best number is 45,000 — the number of people that supposedly die annually because they lack health insurance.
A better number, though, is 180,000 — the number of people that are going to die waiting for benefits of ObamaCare to kick in if it passes — victims of shady accounting. This number doesn’t include people that have lost employer benefits waiting for the government to shift its focus to the economy.

Ryan C, Pelosi’s words in full context doesn’t change the meeting.
Posted by: Chad | Mar 9, 2010 8:59:43 PM
And yet, they do, if you intended to say “meaning.” LOL.
However, your claim does explain why there are so many people in this country who are so misinformed and the average IQ of Americans is below average. Basic comprehension.

mama,
I agree, Healthcare Reform is important. So, let’s reform healthcare and quit this insane focus on the 3-5% profits that Health Insurers make.
BTW, I don’t know the percentage of people that use COBRA when their livelihood evaporates. I was in between jobs a couple of times during my career. Health Insurance was the first thing to go. Never enrolled.

If you want em, I want numbers and I want sources, too!
Posted by: smartlillena | Mar 10, 2010 6:30:34 AM
Thanks for confirming that you have nothing in the way of back-up.

Adding on… also recission and other practices that need adjustment as the sick do get purged, and the focus isn’t patients.

“Adding on… also recission and other practices that need adjustment as the sick do get purged, and the focus isn’t patients.”
Nobody has said that we shouldn’t find a better solution than emergency rooms for the uninsured. But, cost containment should be the first step and not an afterthought.
All the incentives in our current system drive overtesting, overtreating, overprescribing. There is not a single incentive for doctors to moderate the costs that they drive.

Hmmmm…. I think my snips were too long, hence a couple posts disappeared.
Anyway,Ezra Klein makes a good point on cost controls at “Modest, far-reaching cost control” , WaPo.
On fiscal responsibility, monetary policy, the economy and so on, I tend to think idealogues– any rigid idealogue– will eventually be wrong. While I do despise the GOP– as in the official party and their platform and rhetoric, not individuals or voters– I don’t blame any one person or group or policy or move for what’s gone wrong in the economy, and I worry about the ties between special interests and government. What I resent is the right blaming the left and those who refuse to budge from rigid ideology to embrace actual circumstances and look outside a given box for innovative ideas and solutions.
Gotta roll for now. Have a nice morning, mitchscove.

WELL OBAMA SURE IS GOOD WITH NUMBERS – PROBLEM IS NO MATTER WHICH WAY HE ADDS THEM UP THE PUBLIC IS IN FOR A SCREWIN.

“We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it”
How can this woman be elected to anything? Arrogance and stupidity are a bad combination. You can count on Pelosi’s seat changing parties after the next election. It is time to VOTE THEM OUT!!!

Everywhere is Health care bill bu why ??? change the topic dear