President Obama Tells St. Patrick’s Luncheon on Capitol Hill that Ted Kennedy is Watching Them This Health Care Week

You can tell Obama is getting desperate when he has to bring up Teddy. Where are Ted’s grandkids?
How about another story about a fan being buried in his T-Shirt.
Or maybe a story about someone wearing her sister’s false teeth.
Too bad Obama can’t pass any of his agenda on its own merits.

Thank God President Obama that you have not given up on this health care bill. Those who have insurance don’t care about those who don’t and not everyone who does not have it hasen’t because they don’t want it. They don’t have it because their rates got too high or have been dropped or lost their job. If we cannot care for the least of us…we are not a caring society. I hope that we are and I hope we do pass this bill. I bet all those who have opposed it will be the first to get on line if it means less payments for them. As for Kennedy, while he made mistakes in his life (and all of us do but they are not public) he has dedicated his life to caring for his constituants and that is why he was re-elected so often. He truly cared for the little guy and they knew it. Let’s give him a break and pray for him.

And Obama is irish too

Mary Jo Kopechne is watching them both.
Posted by: mesquito | Mar 17, 2010 2:41:03 PM
Good job, mesquito. I’m so sick and tired of people acting like Ted Kennedy is some kind of hero. He was an alcoholic, womanizing, murderer. Because of his name and bank account, he was NEVER brought to justice. That alone should make people wonder about their perceptions of heroism.
Anyway, just wanted to point out that the Dems have been on a roll with their cries of ‘thousands are dying everyday because they have no insurance’! Well, isn’t it ironic that one of THE richest men in America, receiving some of THE best healthcare available, died as well. So, if Obama is trying to directly connect healthcare insurance to life or death, he is wrong. No one in this country is going to be denied care if they are sick, and there are plenty of resources to help folks out financially with their bills.
It’s all about the politics and nothing more. Obama has plenty of compassion until he gets what he wants and then… under the bus.

Posted by: Shoe | Mar 17, 2010 3:43:02 PM
Sure, like we’re going to believe you after you call Ted Kennedy a ‘murderer’. Creepy.

Democracy Without Vote?
As Pelosi plans to usher in health care without a vote, critics say House speaker thumbs her nose at basic principle of democracy
Ex Court of Appeals Judge: Deem&pass will NOT stand up to legal challenge
Obama VS America…..MARXIST

couldn’t Obama just use his gifts from above to resurrect Ted? He has done it before in Biblical times and I don’t see why doesn’t just perform some miracles and raise Ted from the dead to vote for Obamacare.
After all during the election Barry proclaimed that he is “the One” and that a “light shines down from above” and told the sheep to vote for him.

Tax his tractor, tax his mule; tell him, taxing is the rule.
Tax his oil, tax his gas, tax his notes, tax his cash
Tax him good and let him know, that after taxes, he has no dough.
If he hollers, tax him more; tax him till he’s good and sore.
Tax his coffin, tax his grave, tax his sod in which he’s laid.
Put these words upon his tomb, “Taxes drove him to his doom.”
Once he’s gone, we won’t relax. We’ll still collect inheritance tax.
–Irish saying…

Weekend at Bernies 4.

Another crisis=== They want the premiums to rise because they are going to tax them. More money more tax.

Thou shalt not lie.
the head of the Tea Party claimed that the Tea Party was a grass roots movement which began in his garage and claims that he does not work for the insurance companies.
But sources, and financial records of the Medical Health Insurance companies prove that it was the Health Insurance Companies who Bankrolled and organized the Tea Party to go against the Health Care Insurance Reform.
Which also proves that he is being paid by the insurance companies to build the Tea Party from the very beginning.
Tea Party and Republicans Lie.

Posted by: Shoe | Mar 17, 2010 3:43:02 PM
Sure, like we’re going to believe you after you call Ted Kennedy a ‘murderer’. Creepy.
Posted by: tierra | Mar 17, 2010 3:50:31 PM
What would you call him? Do you even know the story behind the car ‘accident’? If you don’t, please just stay out of it. You obviously have nothing of substance to post other than your blind worship of everything that is liberal. Oh, wait, I just realized it was you, tierra. Enough said.

Teddy didn’t do a great job of watching his senate seat. Massachussetts could care less about Teddy’s seat. So the Teddy capital has been played and didn’t help. The people don’t want health care!!!

Wow Obama says he does not worry about proccedure rules. Must be that I am King thing in his head.

Nice try Angie, not true. The Tea Party started after the huge stimulus bill and omnibus bill with PORK were voted in while we were mounting record deficits and bailing out mortgages and auto companies and banks. They were ahead of the health care reform fiasco.

Posted by: Gary | Mar 17, 2010 4:46:18 PM
Actually, nice try, Gary– you would have us believe that the insurance lobby and oil shills had no idea what was on the Obama agenda, and that the Koch Brothers haven’t been fronting groups for ages.
The Tea Party is an astroturf group. Yesterday, their signage was provided by the RNC. Some of you may not realize what puppet strings are being pulled, but they’re being pulled.
LOL.

In other news today…
For the first time, President Barack Obama’s “disapproval” number has gone above his “approval” rating in Gallup’s daily tracking poll.
– The percentage of those polled who “disapprove” of the job he’s doing: 47%.
– The percentage who “approve”: 46%
=========================
What’s the over/under on when The One breaks under 40% disapproval? I’m going with August (May if ObamaCare passes).

Obama should not be using comments like this. It implies some type of religious portent.
While I agree with Obama’s political philosophy (a democratic socialism), one aspect that does not do service to our hedonistic beliefs, is the idea of a religion or religious invocation on much needed legislation. That demeans the efforts and opens him up to criticism.
America’s best days are ahead once we obtain a social justice that only government control and oversight naturally implies. Health care should be afforded to all, just as shelter and food. No person should have to suffer; we should be bigger than this. Once we assure that the “have nots” are afforded the same lifestyles as the “has plenties”, then we move the evolutionary process a little further down the tracks.

“The Tea Party is an astroturf group. Yesterday, their signage was provided by the RNC.”
The RNC should get a refund from the printer of these signs… The signs I saw appeared as if they were made in someone’s basement or kitchen!

“While I agree with Obama’s political philosophy (a democratic socialism), one aspect that does not do service to our hedonistic beliefs, is the idea of a religion or religious invocation on much needed legislation.”
The One is leaving no stone unturned. Heck, he’s so desperate he’s even doing an interview tonight on that non-news organization Fox News!

“GREEDY INSURANCE INDUSTRY”
Yeah, those 5% profit margins are unacceptable! Off with their heads!

I cant wait till those greedy insurance companies can no longer write any insurance; the government has “free” insurance; Just like dee massa do.
From the bravery at Bunker Hill to the sands of Iwo Jima, America now dies in farce.

Since the issue of “rights” was brought up, a timely passage from Prof. Walter Williams (apologies for length, well worth the read):
True rights, such as those in our Constitution, or those considered to be natural or human rights, exist simultaneously among people. That means exercise of a right by one person does not diminish those held by another. In other words, my rights to speech or travel impose no obligations on another except those of non-interference. If we apply ideas behind rights to health care to my rights to speech or travel, my free speech rights would require government-imposed obligations on others to provide me with an auditorium, television studio or radio station. My right to travel freely would require government-imposed obligations on others to provide me with airfare and hotel accommodations.
For Congress to guarantee a right to health care, or any other good or service, whether a person can afford it or not, it must diminish someone else’s rights, namely their rights to their earnings. The reason is that Congress has no resources of its very own. Moreover, there is no Santa Claus, Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy giving them those resources. The fact that government has no resources of its very own forces one to recognize that in order for government to give one American citizen a dollar, it must first, through intimidation, threats and coercion, confiscate that dollar from some other American. If one person has a right to something he did not earn, of necessity it requires that another person not have a right to something that he did earn.
To argue that people have a right that imposes obligations on another is an absurd concept. A better term for new-fangled rights to health care, decent housing and food is wishes. If we called them wishes, I would be in agreement with most other Americans for I, too, wish that everyone had adequate health care, decent housing and nutritious meals. However, if we called them human wishes, instead of human rights, there would be confusion and cognitive dissonance. The average American would cringe at the thought of government punishing one person because he refused to be pressed into making someone else’s wish come true.
None of my argument is to argue against charity. Reaching into one’s own pockets to assist his fellow man in need is praiseworthy and laudable. Reaching into someone else’s pockets to do so is despicable and deserves condemnation.

“Yeah a 5% profit margin which equals BILLIONS of dollars.”
1. According to the most recent Fortune 500 rankings, health insurers are not even among the top-30 United States industries in profit-margin. Health insurers rank 35th, with a profit-margin of just 2.2 percent — less than one-fifth the profit-margin of railroads. None of the ten largest American health insurers made profits of more than 4.5 percent, and two of them lost money.
2. The combined profits of America’s ten largest health insurers are $8.3 billion. That’s less than two-thirds of the profits of Wal-Mart alone, less than half of the profits of General Electric alone, and LESS THAN ONE-SEVENTH OF WHAT MEDICARE LOSES EACH YEAR TO FRAUD. Health insurers collectively have one-eighth the profit-margin of McDonald’s or Coke, one-ninth that of eBay, and one-fifteenth that of Merck.
===========================
Not a lot of money in health insurance. But they sure make convenient villians, don’t they?

Ted kennedy would be aghast the the process and where it is now. he is more likely turning over in his grave.

I’m a conservative who thinks we need to fix healthcare, because the insurance and medical industries have a monopoly on the quality and extent of care that’s available to all of us. These industries have teamed to price fix the market, which I think should be illegal in a free market country. I’m also a realist. I know there’s no way in Hades that insurance and medical health care lobbyists are going to release their hold on their cornered market. Ain’t gonna happen, folks. So, how do everyday Americans of all party persuasions, who don’t work in either industry and aren’t politicians or lobbyists, control the costs of healthcare and make it available and affordable to all Americans who need it? That’s the conversation those of us who aren’t on the take, one way or the other, need to have, and we need to have that talk between now and November. Then, in November, we need to vote out of office any incumbent who doesn’t understand that more than 60% of Americans want affordable quality healthcare on demand that can’t be denied because you’re unemployed and/or you have now or have ever had hypertension, diabetes, cancer, heart disease, or any other illness or unhealthy state. Why? Because human beings are supposed to help one another when they’re down. Now, if you don’t get that in Washington and you can’t find a way in Washington to tell your lobbyists to wait outside while you work out concensus agreements that control costs, provide a fair profit for the industries involved without creating a lot of government red tape, and not leave people who are unemployed or indigent or currently ill standing on a plank someone hung out off the Brooklyn Bridge with the label “Waiting Line”, then we will vote your sorry rectums out of office come November and hire replacements who will. We need to eliminate the price gouging and the monopolistic handshakes and questionable relationships between politicians and lobbyists and industry leaders. Can we? Yes, we can, sure, but I’m not sure we can do it with our current elected officials, because what I’m seeing in Washington are adults behaving poorly and like children, and it’s one sickening spectacle let me tell you. Republicans are not the enemies of health care, democrats, and vice versa. The enemy, and there is only one enemy in this, is our greed-based system of health care with its insurance kicker and the monopolies that are in place to keep the bucks flowing where they have always flowed. That’s wrong, in my view, in America. Enough of the selfishness and greed, there’s still plenty to go around here, even if we spread it out a little thinner.

I would have to say that from Ted Kennedy’s vantage point, he is looking up, rather than down.

No, I am not saying that those who WILL NOT WORK, should live off those that do. You need to study the history of the socialist party better.
Socialism at its core teaches that “everyone, according to their need,” and “everyone, according to their ability.” In other words, in a true democratic democracy, everyone contributes, but those contributions are distributed fairly.
In other words, why should some have less when their work is equally important? Is it fair for the sanitation workers to make 1/3 of what their counterparts make in other services, say building code inspectors? Both jobs are equally important in a society for health and safety, but we reward one more than the other. That’s not fair!
A system that rewards people due to popularity (look at the sports stars ridiculous salaries compared to teachers), is unfair. A system that expects the weak and infirmed to provide for themselves is unfair. We need a system where equal effort produces equal lifestyle benefits.
Obama and the democratic leaders understand this. That is the America that they are trying to establish. Persons no longer suffering trying to get ahead only to be pushed back, while the privileged enjoy their exploitation and unfair advantages.
That’s why I subscribe to the progressive movement of the modern democrats. They understand capitalism uncontrolled leads to greed, corruption, and tyranny. Commerce is necessary for the welfare of society, but it must be controlled and tempered.

This man makes my skin crawl. I literally cannot stand the sound of his voice. That is how much I disrespect him at this point. His ego is so large that his wants are overtaking the needs of the American people. I pray for our country.

If everything was supplied for me, why work? Let someone else work, in fact let the guy above who wants socialism pay all my costs….it’s OK with me…

Mr. Robert Beal,
What makes you think that the public is against Obama? They are not!! The polls show Obama’s approval and disapproval is about equal.
Many think the Democrats are signing their death warrants over Health Care. Many also thought Obama stood no chance of being elected over Hillary. Well who is Sec. State and who is President?
Once the Health Care bill passes and becomes law, Obama will rally the forces and win the day. Remember that we socialist outnumber you nay sayers and right wing extremist in the areas where it counts. We own the media, who propelled Obama to victory and we own the educational institutions. All you own is NASCAR and FOX NEWS!!

stephenjohnson | Mar 17, 2010 5:55:24 PM….There are countries that practice socialism – Cuba, Venezuela, Russia, China. If you like socialism, go to one that practices it. Most Americans believe in the Constitution and the principles our fore-father founded this nation on: limited government and individual liberties, not big government and little individual liberty.

strephenjohnson,
You are sorely misguided on all counts. Just wait to see the results if this bill passes. Many of us who voted for Obama are completely dissatisfied with his performance. His priorities are all wrong. I can’t wait to see your posts come November!

Obaa uses Kennedy’s name like a throw away line. How shameful! As much as Kennedy might be in favor of the bill, he would be aghast at the bankrupt process the corrupt democrats are using to ram this bill through. No Mr President, he would be deeply ashamed at your behavour.

tjp,
Good attempt at an intelligent argument, but wrong headed. You already benefit from the work of others.
I the police come to your house to prevent a theft or worse do you benefit from their work?
If you become disabled and have disability insurance, are you not benefiting from the disability insurance payments others are making?
Sharing work efforts and rewards exist in a civilized and functioning society. Wake up man! We all have to contribute to the common good; you already are, we are just wanting it on a more grand and human compassion scale.
Shelter is a fundamental right, just as health care and food are. We already have food stamps, government housing, and now we are just reaching for the last right on the grand plan, health care. You already subsidize the former and no complaints, so why not the latter?
Wouldn’t you rather live in a society where all have good lifestyles rather than in a society where too many have little, others work too hard for what they have, and the fat cats exploit the two groups that either have not or work hard to stay afloat?

As much as Kennedy might be in favor of the bill, he would be aghast at the bankrupt process the corrupt democrats are using to ram this bill through. No Mr President, he would be deeply ashamed at your behavour.
Posted by: jonny | Mar 17, 2010 6:17:30 PM
______________________________
Love it that you presume you know what Kennedy would think – close friend and colleague were you?
If the bill passes, it will pass by rule of law of the United States.
Quit pretending otherwise with your phony smears.

Ted is a good example for Obama. Ted Kennedy was responsible for a number of public entitlements that have helped to bankrupt our country. Second, people will forgot about this awful bill by election time. The DEMS have crafted this bill so that the real pain won’t be felt until Obama has secured his re-election. Four years from now there will be a greater shortage of primary care doctors, higher taxes and ever greater increase deficit to cover the REAL cost of this bill. Republicans will have gained some ground in the house and they will be the ones blamed because they will be the ones in control when the worst of the obamanation occurs.

Ted Kennedy was responsible for a number of public entitlements that have helped to bankrupt our country.
___________________________________
Don’t kid yourself – when George Bush and the Republicans walked into office there was a SURPLUS on the books, not a deficit. When he left office, the country was $10 trillion dollars in debt.

Does anyone have a cogent answer? If Social Security, Medicare, Prescription Drug Plan have a combined $108 trillion in unfunded liabilities, and $500B cuts from Medicare can only be counted once, how are we going to pay for this bill?

stephen johnson:
“it makes them look like George W attempting to pronounce words correctly!”
If you recall, your messiah, as Commander-in-Chief, cannot even pronounce “Corpsman”. Last month, he repeatedly mispronounced it as “corpse-man”. How embarrassing. He also related that he needed more time to campaign throughout the 57 United States. Now, which one is more stupid?

Does anyone have a cogent answer? If Social Security, Medicare, Prescription Drug Plan have a combined $108 trillion in unfunded liabilities, and $500B cuts from Medicare can only be counted once, how are we going to pay for this bill?
You must really be out of it.
Haven’t you heard that the democrats are going to bend the cost curve? If you don’t get it, you really need to go back to kindergarten.

stephenjohnson:
“I (sic) the police come to your house to prevent a theft or worse do you benefit from their work?”
Not according to your messiah! He thinks they are “acting stupidly”.

bonbud asked,
“Does anyone have a cogent answer? If Social Security, Medicare, Prescription Drug Plan have a combined $108 trillion in unfunded liabilities, and $500B cuts from Medicare can only be counted once, how are we going to pay for this bill?”
Yes, Obama has explained this, but your republican eye glasses perscription will not allow you to see it.
(1) Cut fraud and waste.
(2) Increase taxes on the more fortunate.
(3) Provide government oversight over faceteous medical practices.
(4) Cut government programs that are not producing.
(5) Cut out earmarks
(6) Increase proactive preventative health care practices.
(7) Risky health behavior incurs more surcharges and/or tax liabilities.
(8) Raise taxes on health care vices (tobacco, soft drinks, alcohol, etc).
(9) Promote good health care practices by incentives through corporate tax breaks (gym membership, nutritional instructions, etc).

Jody wrote:
“If you recall, your messiah, as Commander-in-Chief, cannot even pronounce “Corpsman”. Last month, he repeatedly mispronounced it as “corpse-man”. How embarrassing. He also related that he needed more time to campaign throughout the 57 United States. Now, which one is more stupid?”
I have never heard of a “Corpsman” can you please explain what one is?
Pot meet kettle… Kettle meet pot!!

Jody,
We don’t need the threat of doctors leaving the profession to know this is a bad bill. The problem are simply the costs. The democrfats want to pass the costs on to our children.
If this is passed by deeming, then it can be will repealed as soon as possible. And you can be sure that as soon as the opportunity presents itself , it will be. Since the rules that the senate has followed about significant bills and reconciliation is being violated by the democrats, that would also be used by republicans as soon as the opportunity presented itself. Unlike whayt fringe leftists wabnt you to believe, reconciliation or deeming has NEVER been used to pass any bil of this magnitude. And for good reason. They can hide by their rachel maddow talkign points. but not the facts.

Jody:
Your comments are stupid..
StephenJohnson’s comments are intelligent…

It’s funny how proponents of this bill like to point out that medical care is a basic human right that must be afforded to all. These folks gloss over the fact that food ranks much higher on the list of basic needs, yet, despite a variety of entitlement and charity programs, malnutrition remains a major problem among children and elderly in this country. You can’t ensure the health of a nation without first ensuring that it has the nutrition necessary for good health.
Why aren’t we tackling childhood hunger before health care? I know teachers who send high risk children home with bags of food on weekends and vacations because they know that these kids won’t eat unless they are in school for their free meal.
Childhood hunger is a real problem in this country and it’s sickening that we are talking about health care for all instead of food for all.

One thing I’ve noticed is that progressives tend to be more intellectual than extremist like Limbaugh and the gang…
Democratic Party = Intellegence
Republican Party = fill in the blank

shalom:
Democratic Party = Intellegence
Republican Party = fill in the blank
Shalom,
Ooops! Shame on you! You goofed! Besides the idiotic comment, you misspelled intelligence.

If we add 30 million people to healthcare AND some percentage of the doctors follow through on their threat to quit if the bill passes, what will those effects have on healthcare? Posted by: bonbud *************
And where do you think those doctors are going
to finance their high lifestyles. using cash only? LOL
Just another ployed scare tactic by the elitists.

Teddy is watching-what a horrid thought!

Republicans stupid and Democrats intelligent? From what I see, the opponents of the bill are citing sound economical points as to why this will do little to help us. Proponents are giving us promises on paper without any plan on backing up the claims. They want to set pricing controls on the insurance companies, who operate on a 2% profit margin and have underlying health care costs that are also increasing. Ofcourse, you could fix the doctor pay, but that will mean all the smarter people in our country will go into law and the quality of our healthcare will sink like you wouldn’t believe. Or you can add to the deficit and simply add incentives for people to go to medical school. Oh, but surely, this debt can continue to rise and never bite us in the butt. Absolutely. The demand for U.S bonds will always remain high, and hyperinflation that would result from the government printing money because they cannot get more financing simply won’t happen! Libs think that the economy isn’t a zero sum game, but it is.

The pricing controls on the insurance companies will lead to rationing because the underlying healthcare costs will continue to increase. You could pay for this by taxing the hell out of the American people (thus we would still be paying for it anyway). Or you could set the wages of doctors, which would insurmountably lower our quality. This is simply setting something in the market which would create a consequence elsewhere in the market. But, by the time the consequences are realized, the American public will be addicted to the government candy and will be more easily fed to more “reform” that will be needed 10-20 years down the road. We have reached the end of the golden age of America. Open up a history book or look up “bread and circuses.” America is certainly heading in that direction.

Paul,
Good questions, but you fail to realize the instrinsic good in people (or so your party continues to tell us). People will do and conform to what they consider is a moral responsibility.
If we teach a greater good then people will conform. Therefore these problems are self eliminated.
True, some may not conform and some method of correction must be taken. Not far enough along to say what that may be.

Scratch that. Paul

think again…i represent alot of physiacians(50 to 60), a hospital and clinics. its already happened in california..docs are leaving in droves to adjacent and nearby western states because of managed care in california and the low reimbursement rates. plumbers earn more money to unclog a toilet than a physician gets from a colonoscopy. this bill is such a joke unfortunately its on us and the only benefactorsthe alleged 30 million( used to be 45 million) uninsured. thsi bill is the gateway TO LEGALIZING 20 MILLION ILLEGAL ALIENS to vote democrat by 2012.that will be passed by reconciliation as well.

StephenJohnson said:
(1) Cut fraud and waste.
(2) Increase taxes on the more fortunate.
(3) Provide government oversight over faceteous medical practices.
(4) Cut government programs that are not producing.
(5) Cut out earmarks
(6) Increase proactive preventative health care practices.
(7) Risky health behavior incurs more surcharges and/or tax liabilities.
(8) Raise taxes on health care vices (tobacco, soft drinks, alcohol, etc).
(9) Promote good health care practices by incentives through corporate tax breaks (gym membership, nutritional i nstructions, etc).
I have problems with 2, 7, and 8. 2 because that will mean less employment (I am about to graduate and do not need a harder time finding a job than I already have).
7 because that is such a slippery slope. That gives the government the ability to tax anything they deem “unhealthy.” Unhealthy can be so broad it’s ridiculous.
8 because I drink alcohol and soft drinks but am in great shape. I take care of myself, why should I be taxed on something as unhealthy as these if I take them with moderation? Why should I have to pay for other people’s inability to take these things in moderation. This self accountability issue is also a big issue I have with the healthcare bill.

health care reform that has nothing to do with health care his job is to protect this country,obey the constitution,not mandate ANYTHING to legal U.S.A. citizens. the march to socialism is on steroids now!!!!

I think Tierra should watch the fox interview he was taken to task and was stuttering when challenged on the tough questions. No teleprompter to save him with that interview.

Health Care Reform:
Thank you God. I’m tired of paying $500 plus a month to corporate insurers because they think I’m not profitable enough.

Teddy is watching over them? I think I am going to throw up.

stephen johnson | Mar 17, 2010 6:40:42 PM…Is all that like his promise not to raise taxes, put the healthcare negotiations on CSPAN, have a bi-particsan admin, have more transparency? And by the way, I don’t believe those steps will do enough to reduce the unfunded liabilities not his escalating budget deficit and the national debt.

Stephen,
Morality, or the impression of morality, is surely a strong motivator, but that motivation will quickly wane when rational thought and empirical evidence proves that the moral code is to be doubted or questioned. Forgive my platitudes, but , “you may be able to fool some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time”.
Rational thought suggest that if I exert a certain amount of effort, then I should see an outcome somewhat equal to that effort. If I work hard, I expect to improve my condition. If I study hard, I expect to earn better grades than those who do not. That is both logical and rational.
Many people become disenfrancised with their “sitz in laben” but they are rarely willing to take responsibility for their circumstances. To be sure there are circumstances outside our control that can influence our lifestyles, but what we can control, we should control.
If I drop out of high school, go to work at a 9 to 5 and party hard at nights, should I expect my lifestyle to equal the person who pursues an advance degree and works 12 hours per day? In other words, it is not rational to assume that increase effort and sacrifice equals status quo. If so, why put forth the effort? It is neither logical nor rational to exert extra effort into a project that provides no perceived change in condition. This is a scientific principle as well as a life experience one (think cause and effect).
Empirical evidence indicates that I can reasonable expect through observation, that some exercised hypothesis produces a certain observable outcome.
Related to our argument, If my conditions are not improved by my increased efforts, then empirical evidence convinces me that my hypothesis or experiment is flawed. If I increase work but I do not influence results, then either my work is flawed or my hypothesis is flawed, pure and simply. Let’s apply that to your moral argument.
Do I become more moral as a result of increased efforts? Does my condition or observable evidence convince me of some change?
If I exert more effort into work and seek to better and further educate myself and yet my condition or situation is not improved or elevated, then I have to conclude that either my belief is wrong or the experiment is flawed.
Now if I observe that increased study and work efforts yield results in other societies which do not share my beliefs, then what is the logical outcome I can conclude?
Again look to history. If my arguments are facetious, there should be some support to defeat them. If however, my arguments are correct then there would be some evidence to support them. Please look at the rise and fall of the Soviet Empire for answers. The answer is there.

OK, Jake — he said St. Patrick’s Day — how many iffy bills passed on SP day, 4-6 years ago?
Let’s expose this as the piece of utter nonsense that it probably is.

Paul,
Why do you keep referring to the Soviet Union? I am not talking about a Soviet style of government. I am talking about a democratic form of socialism.
At least you are a right winger with a brain, that I concede!

Teddy is watching over them?
I’m not judging,, BUT FROM WHERE?
is HE UP there?
in the MIDDLE?
or DOWN there?
I pray for his soul that he is with his creator…
GOD BLESS AMERICA…. GOD SAVE US ALL FROM OBAMA….

Sandra Said: “I think Tierra should watch the fox interview he was taken to task and was stuttering when challenged on the tough questions.”
=====================================
LOL… “yeah, OK, right, Sandra, whatever you say” (hehehe…*wink*)
At least he did a hell of a lot better than Sarah Palin did with Katie Couric (LOL!). I mean, I could at least understand the President’s answers.
(ROFLMAO!)

mlm411,
You know Kennedy would be in favor of this bill. I find it hard to believe after being in the senate, that he would agree to the sleazeball democrat approach to passing bills, without voting etc…
I know the obamatrons can’t make the distinction between passing a bill of this consequence using sleazeball tactics, and passing some minor bill using sleazeball tactics. It goes to their general lack of understanding.

jonny Said: “Your right, he’s about as clever as Palin!”
=======================================
jonny, a large mistake in your analysis…
The words “clever” and “Palin”…uhmm, they shouldn’t be used together in the same sentence.
Hehehehehe!

Stephen,
Flattery will get you no where in a debate! :) :) Refreshing however, that finally a true progressive does not result to name calling. Is that a compliment or flattery? :)
I refer to the Soviet Union as an example, due to the fact that your own statements mirror those of Marx. The Soviet Union was a democratic socialist form of government. What they started out as in 1936, was with similar goals and aspirations you have described and desire in your posts. What they wound up with with far less than socially just or humane.
Was this due to the players or the system? Before answering that, consider that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
This is precisely why I began my argument with, “those who fail to learn from history are destined to repeat it.”
Our founders experienced government intrusion and tyranny. They have lived under an oppressive and far reaching form of government and understood what the implications of granting such powers to a federal body entailed. That’s why they carefully considered how our constitution was to be constructed and construed. They trusted people to make the right decisions more than government. I for one, totally agree.
Does that mean there are not problems in our society? That there are not social injustices? Certainly not. A nation is only as good as the people who have power to change it, allow it to be. Perhaps, just perhaps that’s where the solution to our woes can be answered and where it begins; — with the people.
We can evolve as a nation and a people if we go back to trusting each other with honest and open debate more than the clowns in Washington.
How do we do this? by giving more control back to the states as the constitutional writers intended. State rights have been usurped beginning in the late 1800s and getting worst every year thereafter. In my opinion, they are now reaching a fervency where they are standing in contrast to our constitution, rather than as a safeguard and protector of it.
Sure we are all fallable human beings. We may all still screw up, but we stand a much better chance of evolving as a people and a nation under the banner of self-governed people. Why do so many trust or rely on an elite out of touch class in DC rather than their own local and state governments whom they have better access to? Why does the Federal government hold states hostage with grants and income tax revenues that rightfully belong to the states to begin with?
We will all never agree on every nuance and despite beliefs to the contrary, we never have. But as long as “we the people”, are allowed to both make our own mistakes and are freed to correct them, we have a much better chance of success than through the actions of legislative mandate.
Let California have a state run health care, if the people of California want it. Let North Carolina have a private health care system if that is what their citizens want. Why should the federal government make all states conform to a federally mandated system?
If you do not like the laws governing one state, move to another. DC’s job should be focused on national issues of commerce, trade, and defense; — not focused upon what locales can take care of themselves.

ABC is running stories tonight to help Obama since FOX news kicked hi butt tonight. We know who ABC works for….it isn’t the American People.

Okay, here’s the facts: Obama says he’s a christian. Ted Kennedy was not. Obama, if he is a christian, would recognize the falsehood in Roman Catholicism and that there is no salvation for a catholic. Therefore, if Obama is a christian then he would have to believe that Kennedy is roasting in an eternal hell. By his own admission as a christian, there is no way he could believe Ted Kennedy is in any position to be able to watch over anything on this earth. He is suffering an eternal damnation. If Obama really does adhere to the beliefs of the christian faith. So, what does Obama believe?

Obama will stop at nothing. Now he’s created Ted Kennedy as a spirit to spook dems into supporting his obsession with passing this bill. In all my years I’ve never seen anything like it. Blatant disregard for the public will, narcissism at its most obvious, contempt for proper legislative procedures…This President is embarrassingly transparent and for that matter just plain an embarrassment. Hope he is a one term and done.

Don’t worry to much about the future. It may not be here. I’m not for mandatory health care reform, but if it passes, so what. It may end up being a good thing. Reason I’m not worried about deficit is because there’s 300 million Americans in the US, and almost 80 million of this 300 million will retire in next several years, and when you minus the people who aren’t old enough to work, we will be left with a little over a million working people to deal with it all, meaning we will need outside imigrants to help with taxes, jobs, especially in taking care of the elderly. We will have plenty to do, plus the country will inherit from the elderly, sad, but this is life. I also think countries like China and India will depend on imports more and more in the future because they both have huge populations and they will need outside resources and that will cost them. Just live for today, because tomorrow will be better. We also have a baby boom in this country and when you combine the baby boom that is coming up, and children going to school, we will be too busy to remember the sacrifices we are making today. Obama is trying his best. I believe he means well, and that counts. he will be elected again, and I have never been wrong and even predicted 9/11 and the recession. Why did i predict 9/11? One of my professors in war and peace had warned us with the following statement. he sais, Unfortunatly if not for a horrible disaster, a country and it’s people will nevr approve a war”, and i had a feeling it would either come by plane or boat since we are surrounded by ocean, unlike other countries that boarder eachother and reason they have to constantly rebuild after disasters. They are too close to eachother and when there’s a war, it really hits them hard. we are lucky to be surrounded by oceans. The recession was easy to predict since most people knew that bomers would retire and go to warm states. the problem is banks were too eager and everyone got loans regardless of income and we know the rest. I base my predictions on numbers and history, and it’s easy to do, and as i said I have a nack for predicting stuff. Just live and love, be kind, never steal, and we will all be fine. Next…

correction: we will be left with a little over 100 million people. My previous e-mail said 1 million.
Out of 300 million Americans, almost 80 million will retire, minus those not old enought to work, and we will have a little over 100 million people to care for the elderly, children and so on. We will welcome immigrants to help raise taxes, and we will have too much work. I’m not worried because the country will also inherit trillions from the elderly some day, and sorry for bringing this up, but this is life. We will all die someday. it is a fact, and considering the 80 million boomers in next several years, and the amount of people left to work, we will be a richer country than ever before, not to mention China, India and oter countries will need imports to accomodate their huge population and eventually falling resources. We will be fine, is the point i was trying to ake. Even if only 1% of boomers retire and move to warm states, like CA, AZ, and FL, that’s already too much for real, and reason I feel real estate in warm places/states will be just fine someday, and probably sooner than most of us realize. 80 million boomers out of 300 million Americans is no joke. It’s huge. We had a real estate boom for 1st time buyers, investors, and plain greed, we haven’t seen anything like the baby boom will bring eventually, and reason why I think some banks don’t want to let go of properties and would rather hold on and make a profit in the future by selling them, than get a mortage payment for a year or two. banks will win out. Countries for centuries have been controled by religion, military, kings/quuens, then prime ministers, presidents, and I feel in the future if we aren’t carefull, BANKS!!! We shouldn’t care as long as people rule always and are one step ahead. Happy St Patricks day, all.

Many of us complain that there’s a huge difference between the rich and poor in this country. The only way to close the gap is to allow some socialism in our system, but still have the free market/capitalist economy we have. I think a combination of both isn’t too bad. Forcing employers to raise salaries is one way to raise the middle class to where it ounce was. We need to bring this gap closer because of the recession we had, or else we will be no different then a 3rd world country, where there’s extreme poverty and extreme richness. We should never become a communist regime, but a little socialistic discipline will help close the gaps, then ounce we are stable, go back to full capitalist economy.

Teddy is trying to stay cool.

Healthcare didn’t save Teddy. He died, just as you and I will, with or without the drugs. I say no to drugs, and surgery or drugs don’t sure anything. It gives a little longer to put your live in order, that’s it. I also don’t want a doctor to tell me when I’ll die, because ounce they tell you, you die inside anyway, so what’s the point. I would rather not know and let it happen when it’s time. I hate medicine and to me healthcare reform is just another method to raise money and to keep the masses drugged, so you all can continue to be sheep. Even pot doesn’t really do much, other than relax people. If they stopped they would know there’s no difference, but they have been convinced that it relaxes them and on and on. It’s all in your minds. You can relax and be high naturally and i would think it’s a better high compared to anything else, if only people believed. Drugs are a waste of money, when you could use the money to travel the world, or just live better healthy live. Why would anyone like harm, then to feel great. What’s the thrill in feeling drunk, or so stonned you are num. Isn’t that like being dead. If it’s so much fun feeling like death, then why are these people afraid to die, maybe they aren’t and reason why they don’t care. Too bad. I wish people enjoyed life without medicine. I know they would feel better, but they are convinced of the opposite and who’s fault is that. The gov who supports medical care for all regardless if we want it or not. Why do I need to pay for care when I don’t ever plan on seeing doctors or take pills. I would only see a doctor for a fracture, but even that could be fixed at home by someone who knows how to patch up, and other than fractures/accidents I don’t need medical advice or care. I would rather pay for a broken arm, or leg, myself, if that happened than to pay forever for healthcare plans. It will be more costly. If I had cancer than I would heal naturally because the medicines your given, and even the theraphy either just postpone things for a short time, or make it worse quicker. I know doctors and I know some will even tell you bogus stuff just so they collect their insurance money.

“President Obama Tells St. Patrick’s Luncheon … hat Ted Kennedy is Watching Them This Health Care Week …”
– Excuse me while I go vomit ..

DEMOCRATES SHOULD KNOW THAT THE ONLY WAY THEY WILL STAY IN POWER IS BY VOTING YES FOR HEALTH CARE. REMEMBER IT IS DOMOCRATES AND INDEPENDENTS THAT PUT YOU IN OFFICE AND NOT REPUBLICANS. DO YOU THINK REPUBLICANS WILL ADVICE YOU TO VOTE NO IF THIS BILL IS THAT BAD?

Obama isn’t concerned with procedures used in the House to pass the bill, and he a former constitutional law professor? What did he teach, Saul Alinsky’s “Rules For radicals”?
What about his oath of office to uphold and defend the constitution?

With Kennedy’s stand on abortion is he looking down on the action . . . or maybe looking up?

Wasn’t Obama caught in a photo op with his shoes off for an Islamic prayer?
As a senator didn’t Obama ridicule the Bible as can be viewed on YouTube?
Doesn’t Obama refer to the Holy Koran? has he ever said Holy Bible?

What about his oath of office to uphold and defend the constitution?
Posted by: Ed Taylor | Mar 18, 2010 12:32:52 AM
___________________________________
What about it? Any law passed will be passed according to the rule of law – nothing less. For you to pretend otherwise is phony.

Good to know the MURDERER is looking UP at everything going on… hope “Luc” gives it to him good for Mary Jo. And Barry, Teddy would have NEVER got the treatment he received under your plan… go smoke that one.

Oh please. Will the current holder of the office of the president stoop to any low to pave his legacy?
______________________________________
Where did this stupid ‘legacy’ smear come from? Health care reform was part of the President’s campaign platform.
Everyone knows the status quo is unsustainable and everyone knows the Republicans were unable to affect any substantial change while they held the presidency and the congress for about 6 years.
Still, you gotta love the Republican right for their ability to cheapen a major issued to a one-word smear – ‘legacy’ – they’re masters at the cheap shots.

Stephen,
With all due respect your argument is facetious at best and willfully ignorant at worst.
If you give government the power to enact law(s) that grants government power over personal income, commerce, economics, health care, housing, etc then what process do you propose to limit, undo, or relinquish that power?
I know it is not your intent to replicate Germany, Russia, or China. Do you truly believe that it was or is the will of those people to ultimately live under these repressive regimes?
I am sure that all of the above societies thought they were making the best moves for their own self interest. Unfortunately, it did not work out as they truly believed it would. History makes no apologies, it only records what happened.
Please inform us with specific details, how while granting government these powers, you can, at the same time, limit that power or ultimately have it repealed? Forgive me, but I have a hard time understanding how once that kind of power is granted, it can easily be revoked.
I will surmise that your answer will revolve around an election process. OK, lets say you are successful in electing a super majority, necessary to overturn current law. Do you really think that those elected are not going to be sucked into the same intoxicating effects of the power that their predecessors enjoyed? Why do you think most Americans are dissatisfied with both parties (according to the polls)? Is it not because they have all acted similarly, when given the power to act on our behalf to a much lesser degree than you are suggesting?
Your philosophy and those of your ilk, is a radical transformation of America. You tell us what you wish to see, but fail to tell us specifics on how it would be implemented. Kind of like this health care bill. No one knows exactly what is in this health care bill (even Obama admits this in an interview on Fox), yet all we liberals know we need, want, and desire it. We liberals do not care to be burdened with the particulars and the details, just give us what we want or what we think we want.
I guess what all of us true conservatives and constitutionalists would like you democratic socialists to provide us with, is a project plan or projection model, where we can see and visualize how your system is different from those who have tried this kind of system before. Not that we do not trust your superior intellect and prophetic insight, we are just funny that way. We like to see facts, figures, and evidences before we take such a gigantic leap of faith!
Please forgive us for not having the ability to think in the total abstract where desire and dreams translate into reality. I apologize, but our minds simply do not work that way.
You see, we are slaves to logic, history, rationale, evidence(s), facts and figures. We look at nations who have tried the system of government you are basically suggesting, and we see the tyranny, repression, poverty, killing fields, and/or economic collapse left in the aftermath. You say it will not happen this time, we will get it right. We say, viewing the evidences, we have an extremely difficult time ignoring the evidence and experiences of others who have attempted at least some semblance of your basic premises.
Somehow, democratic socialists can look past the negatives and see a utopian ideal where the negatives are all replaced by a positive projections based upon individual ideals and/or beliefs. It must be wonderful to live in a world where kaleidoscope visions and marmalade pies can change the lessons and realities of history.
I realize that logic, history, facts and figures are not as important to the liberal progressive, as they are to conservatives and traditionalist. You see, we truly believe that history can teach us what has worked and what does not work. We see the world as it truly is; both good and bad, and not simply the way we want it to be. Both the democratic socialist and the conservative have dreams of a better day. The difference is the conservative says, “show me the logical path of progression with empirical evidence to back up the plan”, while the liberal states, “show us a vision in which we can believe.”

tierra,
Please go back and read Stephen’s post before making a false assumption.
Stephen’s musing are not just related to health care, they embrace a full socialistic society as I indicated in my response. He advocates an income distribution model where government controls the amount of assets one can keep or be paid, along with federally supplied housing as well as health care.
If you embrace these tenants as well, then the post is most relevant and I welcome how you sustain and limit such a complete government take over?

One other thing tierra.
There is one application where what I wrote does apply to this Obama care plan. That is,if it does not work as you visualize it, then how do we go about repealing it?
Since no one knows exactly what is in the plan, it is hard to be specific about it. I am surprised you advocate voting for something that no one truly has before them or knows precisely what it contains. Voting for a plan that affects every citizen in this country and consist of 1/6 of the economy, then it should be totally transparent and it should not require twisting the arms of Obama’s own party to pass.
If it smells like a rat, looks like a rat, walks like a rat, and squeels like a rat, its a rat!
You Dems want to blame Republicans for blocking this legislation but the truth is Democrats did not need and do not now need, a single Republican vote to do what Pelosi and Obama want to do. The problem is within their own ranks. Only through closed rooms and twisting of arms, can they hope to pass this monstrosity. That and the fact Congress is exempt should tell us much of what we need to know.
I know you will probably respond that we know most of the details that are in the plan. Hope you do not conduct your personal life signing contracts without reading the fine print. It is those little details that have cost many a person. Ask those who dealt with Mr. Madoff.

Since no one knows exactly what is in the plan
________________________________________
If you don’t know what is in the health bills then you haven’t cared enough to find out. Both bills are available on line. If you haven’t cared enough to find out then your ‘concern’ is more partisan political than substantive.

Posted by: paul | Mar 18, 2010 2:40:29 AM
Perhaps if you cited Stephen’s post and the parts your are concerned about, your post would make more sense . . .

Ok tierra, what bill are you reading?
(1) The House Bill
(2) The Senate Bill
or
(3)the compromise Bill wth amendments Congress is currently working on?
If you actually know what is in the bill before Congress now, please call the White House and tell them. In Obama’s interview conducted today with Brett Bayer, he specifically stated he did not know everything in the bill, so I am sure he would appreciate your prophetic powers!
One more thing do you actually believe it is constitutional to force people to purchase something from the government with threat of imprisonment or huge fines if you refuse to purchase? That is in all of the bills that have been posted on line thus far.

In Obama’s interview conducted today with Brett Bayer, he specifically stated he did not know everything in the bill, so I am sure he would appreciate your prophetic powers!
________________________________________
He most certainly did not “specifically state he did not know everything in the bill.”
I just watched the interview.
And yes, in every modern western democracy people are required to purchase health insurance – it is done through taxes and usually a modified single payer system.

Brett Bayer specifically asked him if he knew what was in the Bill before congress. He stayed no, but we could all know before it was voted on, it would be posted.
Thus far, this compromise version is not posted. There are further arm twisting tactics and compromises to try and get DEMOCRATIC VOTES to get passage of the bill.
I am certainly glad you are omniscient and know what they will write before it is written.
It is truly refreshing to have so much faith in Obama, Reed, and Pelosi, that you see nothing wrong with passing a bill that many in your own party have to hold their noses to vote for, or accept bribes and special backroom deals.
Sad, you cannot even get enough votes in your own party to pass this medical paradise of a bill, without back room deals and arm twisting. Yeah, that’s change we can all believe in.
Further, this is not a single payer system bill. People will be required to purchase a health care plan, not be taxed alone to pay for it. READ THE BILLS that are currently on line.

One more thing do you actually believe it is constitutional to force people to purchase something from the government with threat of imprisonment or huge fines if you refuse to purchase?
Posted by: paul | Mar 18, 2010 2:48:35 AM
________________________________________
yes, in every modern western democracy people are required to purchase health insurance – it is done through taxes and usually a modified single payer system.
And if you don’t pay your taxes, or the health insurance fees, you are subject to penalties under the law.
Posted by: tierra | Mar 18, 2010 2:54:58 AM

I think this is all about related With HCR bill that’s it.

Kennedy must have great eyesight to see through the flames of Hell.

The Obama voters here are comical. The “process” doesn’t matter. The cost to the deficit doesn’t matter. The fact the bill taxes the middle class and poor doesn’t matter. The fact the bill probably won’t end up covering many of the uninsured doesn’t matter(because many of the uninsured will find it cheaper to pay the fine than buy Obama’s expensive insurance). The fact Obama reversed himself(from the campaign) on his position on insurance mandates doesn’t matter. The fact the bill cuts $500 billion from Medicare doesn’t matter(when for years Democrats terrorized Seniors with stories how Republicans would cut Medicare). And the fact the bill adds to a crushing debt burden doesn’t matter. And the fact the bill can end up putting the very people it purports to protect(the uninsured) in jail doesn’t matter either. And the fact this bill would be unnecessary if funds for the stimulus bill were spent on the uninsured instead of for nonpriority pork projects doesn’t matter either.

tierra said “Both bills are available on line” There is only one bill now. The senate bill.

He is looking UP at what is going on, not DOWN.

Obama is finally telling the truth. He is begging the democrat party to vote for this because his presidency is on the line. I Knew all along….for Obama, it’s all about, me, me ,me. He doesn’t give a rat’s a$$ about the American people it’s all about what his :legacy” will be.

It’s time to flush the political toilet… the next election deserves more than just a courtesy flush!

President of the United States ….AND …. Ghost Whisperer!

Even when he is dead Ted Kennedy and haters still raise the issue of Mary Jo and “A Bridge too far.”
It’s as if thats all their small brains can handle.Let it go..
———————
OH, sure, let it go. No big deal, right? So what if a young woman is left ALIVE in an underwater car…abandoned by the drunk that drove the car into the water.
I mean he’s a KENNEDY! Why should anyone care that a KENNEDY just swam away, went home, slept it off, and had breakfast.
I wonder how long it took for her to die…waiting…hoping…pleading for help.

I am more concerned about what the living people from Ted Kennedy’s district think. Oh wait, they voted against Obamacare. Obama disrespects the constitutional idea of representation when he invokes the memory of a dead man in order to stifle the voice of the people he represented.

O’bama is certainly Irish in one major respect: The use of blarney which your local dictionary defines as “deceptive or misleading talk; nonsense; hooey” I suppose next time around, he’ll use the campaign slogan “Blarney you can believe in.” As for Ted Kennedy and O’bama’s health-care reduction plan, good old Ted didn’t have to worry one way or the other. He, like O’bama and the current group of clowns in Washington, had their own coverage well above anything planned for the common folk.

What an act of desperation! What else is Obama going to do? I can’t imagine how much more of our tax dollars are going to buy votes to destroy this economy. Maybe Obama should listen to himself sometimes…
“And more importantly, he was a believer in building consensus, in forging compromise, in the idea that the only way that we can accomplish the work of the American people is to work together.”
Problem with that statement is other than lip service Obama has not compromised at all. His health summit was nothing but political theater since he through he could fool the American people who were looking for transparency. Democrats have been working on health care since his January state of the union when he claimed JOBS was his #1 priority and the only time anything was on TV was the summit in which Paul Ryan is still waiting for an answer to all the problems he saw in the bill.
This thing is a disaster!

Obama is as illiterate on theology as he is economics. The departed don’t look down on us in fact with his abortion stance Teddy probably wouldn’t be up anywhere!
IT’S THE DEBT STUPID !
Obama is hoodwinking the public by talking deficit reduction as opposed to addressing the REAL CRISIS, the NATIONAL DEBT ! Deficit reduction is like you merely charging less on your credit card, WHILE YOU ARE STILL CHARGING !
So, with Obama is it TRANSPARENCY OR DESPOTISM ? I have already made up my mind!
The debt is already climbing beyond the twice raised ceiling, the OBAMA/PELOSI/REID trident are forecast to double it in five years and triple it in ten. Unfunded liabilities of the government now exceed $105 trillion while the net woth of the nation’s assets are but $51.5 trillion. So where’s the HOPE in this CHANGEY ???