President Obama Instructs Justice Department to Stop Defending Defense of Marriage Act calls Clinton-Signed Law “Unconstitutional”
President Obama has instructed the Justice Department to stop defending the constitutionality of the Defense of Marriage Act, which has since 1996 allowed states to refuse to recognize same-sex partnerships legally recognized in other states.
The announcement was made in a letter from Attorney General Eric Holder to congressional leaders in relation to two lawsuits, Pedersen v. OPM and Windsor v. United States, which challenge a section of DOMA that defines marriage for federal purposes as only between one man and one woman.
President Obama believes that section – Section 3 — “is unconstitutional” given the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment (including its equal protection component), Holder wrote, and the president has instructed the Department of Justice to no longer defend the law in those two lawsuits.
President Obama “has made the determination,” Holder wrote, that Section 3 “as applied to same-sex couples who are legally married under state law, violates the equal protection component of the Fifth Amendment.”
DOMA was passed by a Republican House and Senate and signed into law by Democratic President Bill Clinton in 1996. In application the law means same-sex couples are not afforded the same rights as straight couples when it comes to Social Security benefits, hospital visitation and other rights.
Following presidential precedent, the Obama administration has been defending the law even though President Obama has long opposed it.
But now, “under heightened scrutiny" since the 2nd circuit court asked for the administration to defend its position given lack of precedent, Holder wrote, the government’s ability to defend the law can no longer be made by “advancing hypothetical rationales, independent of the legislative record, as it has done in circuits where precedent mandates application of rational basis review. Instead, the United States can defend Section 3 only by invoking Congress’ actual justifications for the law.”
That legislative record, Holder wrote, “contains discussion and debate that undermines any defense under heightened scrutiny. The record contains numerous expressions reflecting moral disapproval of gays and lesbians and their intimate and family relationships – precisely the kind of stereotype-based thinking and animus the Equal Protection Clause is designed to guard against.”
Chuck Donovan, a senior research fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation said that “After a series of steps that undermined the legal case for the Defense of Marriage Act, the Obama Administration has apparently decided to drop its mask and publicly switch sides. This action raises the stakes in this litigation even higher, because both portions of DOMA – both the federal definition of marriage as the union of a man and a woman, as well as the authority of Congress under Article 4 of the Constitution to interpret the Full Faith and Credit Clause to allow states to protect similar definitions – are now at heightened risk.”
Last month, then-White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said that “we can’t declare the law unconstitutional…The President believes, as you said, that this is a law that should not exist and should be repealed. But we, at the same time, have to represent the viewpoint of the defendant.” Gibbs said that “given the current makeup of the Congress,” having DOMA repealed would be :inordinately challenging,”
President Obama told Holder that the Executive Branch of the government will continue to enforce Section 3 “consistent with the Executive’s obligation to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, unless and until Congress repeals Section 3 or the judicial branch renders a definitive verdict against the law’s constitutionality. This course of action respects the actions of the prior Congress that enacted DOMA, and it recognizes the judiciary as the final arbiter of the constitutional claims raised.”
In Zanesville, OH, in June 2008, then-candidate Obama said DOMA “was a unnecessary imposition on what had been the traditional rules governing marriage and how states interact on the issues of marriage.”
“This is a monumental decision for the thousands of same-sex couples and their families who want nothing more than the same rights and dignity afforded to other married couples,” said Joe Solmonese, president of the Human Rights Campaign, an advocacy group for gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender individuals. Congressional leaders must not waste another taxpayer dollar defending this patently unconstitutional law. The federal government has no business picking and choosing which legal marriages they want to recognize. Instead Congress should take this opportunity to wipe the stain of marriage discrimination from our laws.”
-Jake Tapper and Sunlen Miller
UPDATE:
A reminder that in June 2009, President Obama’s DOJ began its defense of the Defense of Marriage Act by invoking incest and adults marrying children.
This did not go over particularly well among some of the president’s supporters.
In July 2010, a judge ruled against the Obama administration.
Also in June 2009, the president extended some benefits to same sex partners of federal employees.
At a news conference in December of 2010, shortly after signing into law a repeal of the military’s ‘don’t ask don’t tell’ policy toward gay servicemembers, I asked the President if it was “intellectually consistent to say that gay and lesbians should be able to fight and die for this country, but they should not be able to marry the people they love?”
Gay marriage, he said, is an issue with which he struggles.
“My feelings about this are constantly evolving,” he said. “I struggle with this. I have friends, I have people who work for me who are in powerful, strong, long-lasting gay or lesbian unions, and they are extraordinary people, and this is something that means a lot to them and they care deeply about.”

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Good on ya, Mr. President.
Posted by: Dawn M | February 23, 2011, 12:43 pm 12:43 pm
Way to go Obama. Discrimination against gay families is finally on it’s way out. Hopefully people can let go of their prejudices and just allow these families equal treatment under the law already.
Posted by: Marine Vet | February 23, 2011, 12:53 pm 12:53 pm
Obama just lost the 2012 election.
Black voters will not react kindly to Obama’s defacto endorsement of homosexual marriage.
Posted by: Joe White | February 23, 2011, 1:00 pm 1:00 pm
About time, it’s prejudice that is destroying this country.
Posted by: ProudAmerican | February 23, 2011, 1:04 pm 1:04 pm
If this is true, Mr. Obama, you are no longer the president of the United States of America. You do not get to choose which federal laws you will enforce. Willing refusal to enforce a federal law is, quite likely, an act of treason. This is not your choice, any more than it was George Bush’s choice whether he would defend the legality of abortion. He did not agree with it, but did not have the choice to not enforce it.
Posted by: Martin Dudeck | February 23, 2011, 1:06 pm 1:06 pm
I can’t tell you how happy. This makes me feel. As a 19 year old lesbian, I have been thinking seriously about my future. I do want a family of my own and a wife. But having to worry weither or not my marriage would be recognized if I chose to move is so stress ful. On an ending note.. did you know that in 25 states it is legal to marry your first cousin..
Posted by: kat | February 23, 2011, 1:08 pm 1:08 pm
I agree with taking the government out if marriage, but Obama has no authority to say he will no longer enforce a law. That’s one if his highest duties as President. This man is a dictator with no respect for law.
Posted by: Jason G | February 23, 2011, 1:10 pm 1:10 pm
Wow. As I am personally affected by this, I am relieved to see yet another unjust barrier begin to come down. Thank you.
Posted by: Jon Crow | February 23, 2011, 1:11 pm 1:11 pm
We have so many real problems right now that it’s nice to hear a few people have gotten a clue and figured out what is important vs. what is just plain idiotic.
Posted by: James Moore | February 23, 2011, 1:16 pm 1:16 pm
“which challenge a section of DOMA that defines marriage for federal purposes as only between one man and one woman.” – ABC News
? ? ? ? ? ? ?
How could anyone challenge something as common sense as that?
Marriage is the Union of a Man and a Woman.
Period.
When two people of the same sex form a union it is a different thing.
Call it what it is – Garriage.
The Gay community should then pursue whatever rights it can get as Garried people.
Problem solved.
Posted by: Noz | February 23, 2011, 1:21 pm 1:21 pm
It doesn’t matter what I think of the law, and it shouldn’t matter what Obama thinks either. It’s not his place to decide what is “unconstitutional!!!!” This is a bad sign that any President can decide what “they think” is the law. It should be the Courts that decide, or Congress to change. That’s what the separation of powers is all about, and what Obama is throwing in the wastebasket.
Posted by: John Q. | February 23, 2011, 1:22 pm 1:22 pm
I tend to agree, but don’t the courts normally decide this sort of thing when challenged? Obama just gets to make a command decision here? Obama “instructs” the Justice Department? Wow!
Posted by: LongT | February 23, 2011, 1:22 pm 1:22 pm
@ Martin & Jason….You apparently missed the part where “President Obama told Holder that the Executive Branch of the government will continue to ENFORCE Section 3 “consistent with the Executive’s obligation to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, unless and until Congress repeals Section 3 or the judicial branch renders a definitive verdict against the law’s constitutionality.” The law will still be enforced…just not defended in court.
Posted by: Gary | February 23, 2011, 1:23 pm 1:23 pm
If he feels so strongly, why doesn’t he have legislation introduced to repeal the law and let the people’s representatives and senators debate and vote on the matter? He won’t because that’s the “socialist way”. It’s as close to dictatorial as you’ll ever get.
Posted by: Dell | February 23, 2011, 1:24 pm 1:24 pm
Sounds good to me!
Posted by: Bill Graves | February 23, 2011, 1:25 pm 1:25 pm
This is rather strange. I never heard of the president ordering the Justice Department around. I’m beginning to think Obama is really clueless now.
Posted by: LongT | February 23, 2011, 1:25 pm 1:25 pm
Remember that U.S. District Court Judge Joseph Tauro (appointed by Nixon) ruled in 2009 that the Defense of Marriage Act’s denial of federal rights and benefits to lawfully married Massachusetts couples “offends” the notion of states’ rights as enshrined in the10th amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The case was brought by the Obama Administration. It seems to me that Obama is making sense and saving money with this instruction.
Posted by: Kevin | February 23, 2011, 1:28 pm 1:28 pm
Just another example that Obama has NOT veered toward the center as he would like voters to believe… This is in addition to inciting the indefensible budget-busting position of the unions in Wisconsin…. Obama must stay on the side of gays and unions to get re-elected!!!
Posted by: TheLoyalOpposition | February 23, 2011, 1:31 pm 1:31 pm
The Obama Administration has done nothing. The DOJ is still enforcing the law, all they have done is state their opinion on it and that they will not defend the act if it comes into question in the Judiciary. Next time learn a bit before what you are talking about before you start accusing the president of treason.
Posted by: Jim | February 23, 2011, 1:32 pm 1:32 pm
Reading comprehension disorder rears its ugly head again. The Executive branch will continue to enforce the law. But it will no longer defend the law against challenges from the Judicial branch.
Keeping the Justice Department out of the court battles could save taxpayers millions.
Posted by: Yukon Sam | February 23, 2011, 1:33 pm 1:33 pm
Dems’ Strategy: If You Can’t Beat ‘Em, Go AWOL
Demorat slugs. if we can’t have our way we quit
DemoRat from Mass calls for violence against americans ” time to get bloody”….The closest thing to a demorat is the Taliban
==========================================
OBAMA ———VS——–AMERICA
Posted by: Yep I said that | February 23, 2011, 1:37 pm 1:37 pm
Wow, more and more this character Obama is showing his despotic tendencies. As I’ve said before Africa’s present is America’s future under this character. Divisiveness, food shortages, inflation, ruined economies, strongman power-grabbers, ethnic tensions, crime, etc.
Posted by: Ed | February 23, 2011, 1:40 pm 1:40 pm
A bunch of states’ attorneys general should decide that obamacare is unconstitutional (along with federal judges) and they will no longer comply with the rest of the federal government’s orders.
Posted by: Littlemac | February 23, 2011, 1:42 pm 1:42 pm
Hm…funny. I thought JUDGES ruled whether laws were constitutional or not based on a government system we like to call CHECKS AND BALANCES. But no, no, go ahead and cancel out whatever laws you don’t like. I mean, it’s just like organizing a community… where no one else has any say.
Posted by: Alissa | February 23, 2011, 1:42 pm 1:42 pm
“U.S. still awaiting Libya’s permission to evacuate Americans,” blared the headline for a page A6 story in today’s Washington Post.
Permission?.. what idiot is running the state department?????
Obama VS America
Posted by: Yep I said that | February 23, 2011, 1:42 pm 1:42 pm
Unconstitutional didn’t bother him, with health care.
Posted by: Rick McDaniel | February 23, 2011, 1:42 pm 1:42 pm
So can the next President after he/she is sworn in sometime in January of 2013 state that they find Obamacare to be unconstitutional and will no longer go after those in violation of it?
This is beyond ridiculous! If the President and his minions feel so strongly about this then go about repealing the Act. Unbelievable.
Posted by: J.R. | February 23, 2011, 1:45 pm 1:45 pm
Oh! I get it now. He’s simply campaigning. Whew! I thought he just made himself king.
Posted by: LongT | February 23, 2011, 1:45 pm 1:45 pm
Posted by: Yep I said that | Feb 23, 2011 1:37:21 PM
If you’re freaking out about “time to get a little bloody” you must really think Indiana Republican Jeff Cox ought to be fired. He said it was time to use live ammunition and deadly force on protestors.
Sounds like Gaddafi.
And how about those Republicans who have been filibustering for the past two years? Denying quorum is akin to filibustering. It’s a tactic Abraham Lincoln used, which makes it downright patriotic in a way. While filibustering isn’t in the constitution, quorum is in the state constitutions of both Wisconsin and Indiana, and denying quorum is an exercise of a loophole set down in print.
Posted by: Alyson | February 23, 2011, 1:47 pm 1:47 pm
failure, racist, incompetent joke and disgrace to America known as “holder” to be fired. And, if the DOJ continues to not do the proper job, IT MUST BE DE-FUNDED.
Posted by: TeaPartyPatriot
==========================================
That sound you hear is of emails being shredded and hard drives being tossed out the window as Congressman Issa begins his investigation of the Eric Holder DOJ
Posted by: Yep I said that | February 23, 2011, 1:47 pm 1:47 pm
Keeping the Justice Department out of the court battles could save taxpayers millions.
That’s why it ain’t gonna happnen…
Posted by: Gitmo | February 23, 2011, 1:51 pm 1:51 pm
To be honest I think there should not be a government recognition of marriage that would do anything other than stating that two people calling themselves married due to their religion. Marriage is a religious thing. There is nothing in the natural world that at birth which makes marriage mandatory to have children or to live. Marriage is a made up by the animals we call human that have the notion of particular values of life that vary from person to person. The idea of marriage is to become one until death. It is a promise and if any part of that “one” does something wrong, the definition of the “one” means that they all in that marriage are responsible. That does not sound like a logical and reasonable way of living. There should not be any benefit of marriage other than having a religious support of people to help each other mutually in that marriage. In stating this, since religion is a religious thing, anyone should be able to say they are married to anyone as long as the other party agrees and no one, not even the government has the right to say otherwise. When I was born into this world, I was born into a place that already had laws that humans made up and I am forced to go by them even though it is not my choice. Only if I could have known all of this before I was born, maybe I would have changed my mind about life.
Posted by: Robert | February 23, 2011, 1:54 pm 1:54 pm
So let me see based on an above post, blacks are going to vote overwhelmingly for Palin or Huckabee? Doubt it.
For the question by another, the Justice Department is part of the Executive Branch (Read the Attorney General and below work for the President) So him providing direction is appropriate. Just as Bush providong direction to Ashcroft.
For the people who did not comprehend the Article, justice is enforcing DOMA, but they are allowed to be selective in how they defend it in the courts. Such that the federal government still does not recognize married homosexuals in terms of Social Security and legal issues, but will not go before a judge to say the plaintifs do not have a case.
Posted by: John | February 23, 2011, 1:55 pm 1:55 pm
Alright! Finally we can move forward towards equality for everyone, the way America is supposed to be. For all you fraidy-cats that are hiding your fear behind your bigotry WAKE UP! the ways of the past are no more. The youth of America believe in equality under the law for everyone!
Posted by: Matthew | February 23, 2011, 1:56 pm 1:56 pm
If that is the case,I should be allowed to carry my concealed weapon to any state,and claim equal protection under the 5th amendment.
Posted by: stormerF | February 23, 2011, 2:00 pm 2:00 pm
I thought Obama was opposed to gay marriage – campaign questions?
Posted by: jamescbuilder | February 23, 2011, 2:04 pm 2:04 pm
The Department of Justice is an executive department that reports to the President.
There is nothing that requires the DoJ to defend positions in court that it believes to be unconstitutional.
The DoJ will continue to enforce DOMA until it is repealed by Congress or overturned by the courts.
Certain parties are deliberately blurring the distinction between enforcement and defense to further their narrative that this administration is not doing its duty. It’s a lie. The President and the DoJ are operating entirely within their duties and powers when they decline to mount a legal defense of an indefensible law.
Posted by: Yukon Sam | February 23, 2011, 2:04 pm 2:04 pm
Obama is not king,he can not just declare a constitutional passed law,that he does not like, out. It smacks of infrigement on civil liberties and is not the way government works.
Posted by: stormerF | February 23, 2011, 2:05 pm 2:05 pm
I’m a conservative republican who is all for civil unions between homosexuals.I could care less if two men, women, two dogs, two cats want to get married. Great! Doesn’t effect me. I do mind the PRESIDENT deciding something is unconstituional. And then instructing the justice department to not defend it. I’m sorry, that will end enforcement of the law by virtue that the judges will just rule in favour of the plantiff. And,I’m sorry ProudAmerican. I mean this with all due respect. But, THIS issue, is not destroying America.
Posted by: laelephant | February 23, 2011, 2:05 pm 2:05 pm
How could Clinton have done something wrong? I blame Bush!
Posted by: Yellow Dog | February 23, 2011, 2:05 pm 2:05 pm
Obama is simply trying to draw attention away from his lack of supporting teachers in WI.
Posted by: No Class | February 23, 2011, 2:08 pm 2:08 pm
Who does he think he is? We have laws, he can not decide to just not follow the ones that he doesn’t agree with. This man has gone to far and needs to be recalled or impeached. Maybe he is trying to change the subject since he has done such a bad job in foreign affairs and states rights.
Posted by: Freedom | February 23, 2011, 2:16 pm 2:16 pm
I’m still waiting on the jobs the republicans promised in Nov….Where are they?
Posted by: Guest | February 23, 2011, 2:18 pm 2:18 pm
Um… I think that is the job of the Supreme Court NOT the president.
Posted by: Yuppers | February 23, 2011, 2:20 pm 2:20 pm
Sadly, some people have reading comprehension problems and then spout off without knowing what they’re talking about. Good for you Obama. Good for you.
Posted by: MicheleinCA | February 23, 2011, 2:23 pm 2:23 pm
Right on Obama! This is what it means to lead and to uphold the rights of all Americans to full equality. BTW, where are the jobs Speaker Boehner?
Posted by: Phil | February 23, 2011, 2:24 pm 2:24 pm
This is so wrong on several points.
1. The President is prempting the Supreme Court. It is their job to decide constitutional questions.
2. Obama is BREACHING his oath of office in that he swore to uphold the laws of the country.
3. And worse of all, he is ordering the people in the Justice Dept to BREACH their oaths.
Posted by: Gene Murphy | February 23, 2011, 2:24 pm 2:24 pm
It still amazes me that so many can’t STAND the fact that we have a Constitutional scholar and moderate in the White House instead of a dumb-ass “cowboy” (as a 3rd generation Texan, I resent the hell out of Bush Jr. calling himself such…he was raised in Connecticut and driven to private school in a LIMO, people…be real!) C student, draft dodger, war-monger who set new records on the debt, the concentration of wealth in the hands of the top few percent, expansion of the federal government and its powers and Constitutional violations (wait, I think Reagan trumped him on that last one, come to think of it) and drove us into the worse economic crisis since the Great Depression. But hey, he was WHITE, right? SOO sick of all the knee-jerk Obama bashing…get over it…you LOST the election, ok? In a LANDSLIDE. The people spoke. Deal with it and show this President and the office the respect you demanded everyone show Bush/the office when HE was in it. This is long overdue and along the lines of the decision to NOT actively enforce federal drug laws against those producing/using medical pot in states where it is legal. It is actually LESS government in action, not some federal dictatorship. And BTW, the health insurance reform bill is perfectly constitutional, on several grounds (regulation of interstate commerce, taxation authority, promotion of the general welfare). Our current President used to TEACH the Constitution…you think he is so ignorant as to sign into law something which violates it? LOL. Wow.
Posted by: Raven | February 23, 2011, 2:25 pm 2:25 pm
Guest, how long has the new Congress been in session? Who still holds the White House and the Senate?
Once again, the president is not the Supreme Court.
We have separation of powers. Legislative, Judicial and Executive.
Each of these branches has certain powers, and each of these powers is limited, or checked, by another branch.
Congress can pass a law, but the President can veto it.
Only the Supreme Court can rule a law to be unconstitutional.
Posted by: Yuppers | February 23, 2011, 2:25 pm 2:25 pm
Posted by: Yep I said that | Feb 23, 2011 2:24:06 PM
Obama’s cautious approach to Libya is based on his desire to get Americans out of Libya safely first.
Posted by: Alyson | February 23, 2011, 2:26 pm 2:26 pm
I have no problem with any of this as long as
1 – The executive Branch enforces and defends the law.
2 – People understand that Marriage is the Union of a Man and a Woman.
3 – The Union of two people of the same sex is a different thing and is called Garriage.
: o )
Posted by: Noz | February 23, 2011, 2:32 pm 2:32 pm
Hello? What about Supreme Court is the ONLY branch that can rule a law to be unconstitutional don’t you understand.
This is a clear overreach by the executive branch.
The president has a responsibility to respect the Supreme Court.
“Each branch should vigorously seek to protect its legitimate powers, and each branch should recognize the legitimacy of the others’ concerns.”
Posted by: Yuppers | February 23, 2011, 2:38 pm 2:38 pm
The DoJ is under no obligation to mount a legal defense of any law. None. The U.S. didn’t even have a DoJ for half its history. It’s not part of the system of checks and balances.
The Courts decide the constitutionality of the law, but the Executive Branch decides whether the DoJ wades into the fight or not. The Executive can at any point decide to leave the matter to the courts.
You are free to dislike the President’s decision, but claims that he doesn’t have the authority to make it are without foundation.
Posted by: Yukon Sam | February 23, 2011, 2:41 pm 2:41 pm
it will take a lifetime to reverse the course odumma has set for the nation. that is assuming the nation continues to exist. one day we may all wake up to find ourselves being stoned to death as infidels. obumma says he doesn’t support gay marriage but what he is really saying is he will dump michelle once it is ok to come out.
Posted by: michael | February 23, 2011, 2:41 pm 2:41 pm
Yep I Said That..”now Obama will try to use the middle east as the reason for higher prices…not his failed policies on energy”. Hmmm, And what was Bush’s excuse? Fact is, anyone who doesn’t know that gas prices will spike in the spring and summer as demand peaks and instead sees some vast, shadowy conspiracy, is a moron. I was fully expecting $4.00 a gallon gas by July regardless. Now, if we could only manage to get Exxon et al to pay TAXES on their record profits….
Posted by: Raven | February 23, 2011, 2:44 pm 2:44 pm
“Now, if we could only manage to get Exxon et al to pay TAXES on their record profits….”
Obama could lead that effort. Right after he stops the bailing out Wall Street.
Posted by: Hysterical | February 23, 2011, 2:47 pm 2:47 pm
I’m still waiting on the jobs the republicans promised in Nov….Where are they?
—-
Those jobs aren’t needed. The Recovery was over the summer and unemployment never went above 8%.
Posted by: Success | February 23, 2011, 2:49 pm 2:49 pm
Michael, Evidently the President is confodent in his marriage where you most likely are not – usually fear comes from insucurity.
Posted by: Keith L. Ward | February 23, 2011, 2:54 pm 2:54 pm
So he starts the 2012 campaign already….hope he enjoys these last 2 years.
Posted by: angus | February 23, 2011, 2:56 pm 2:56 pm
Hysterical wrote: “Obama could lead that effort. Right after he stops the bailing out Wall Street.” That was BUSH’S baby…his last act before leaving office. The only thing Obama changed was adding a provision to require that the taxpayer money be PAID BACK (and most of it already has been). Otherwise, it would have been just another Republican grand theft like the savings and loan fiasco. And your point was?
Posted by: Raven | February 23, 2011, 2:57 pm 2:57 pm
“…usually fear comes from insucurity.”
And poor spelling…
Posted by: Publik Ed | February 23, 2011, 2:58 pm 2:58 pm
That was BUSH’S baby…his last act before leaving office.”
I remember Obama being forced to sign the bill in 2008. Just as he was forced to hire Immelt, take about $1 million in campaign contributions from GS, …
Posted by: Hysterical | February 23, 2011, 3:02 pm 3:02 pm
LONGT,
The courts have already ruled the Law unconstitutional. What Obama did was to not appeal it any longer and continue to defend it since he thinks it is a waste of time, energy and money since he believes it to be unconstitutional. He Just did not rule it himself. Now you know…
Posted by: Zazu | February 23, 2011, 3:09 pm 3:09 pm
Obama is gay. Michelle is a man.
Posted by: Ben | February 23, 2011, 3:09 pm 3:09 pm
I love it. The “black and white, draconian” past is changing right before our very eyes. I would say that the President has found his “sea legs”. And by the looks of the dropouts from GOP “potentials” for 2012…I would say they are thinking the same thing. No sense in “destroying their credibilty” by trying to “herd the crazy extremes of the Party” into a “rational direction”. LOL…LOL
Posted by: CND FOX | February 23, 2011, 3:10 pm 3:10 pm
Raven wrote:
“the health insurance reform bill is perfectly constitutional, on several grounds (regulation of interstate commerce, taxation authority, promotion of the general welfare”
Regulation of interstate commerce — no sorry. A person who doesnt buy a product is not ‘engaging in commerce’. Just the opposite. He is ‘not engaging in commerce’. You cant redefine “inaction” as “action”.
Taxation authority — no sorry. Buying a product from a private company isnt “paying a tax”. Taxes get paid to the government, not business. Remember? Funny, even Obama can’t seem to decide whether he believes this whopper or not. First he said it wasnt a tax, now he claims it is. Obama the ‘Constitutional scholar’ seems a bit confused.
Promotion of general welfare — no sorry. If the government can force you to buy insurance under the pretense that ‘it helps the country’ then they can force you to buy vegetables, or a health club membership, or a weight loss video or vitamins or a new car or a house or anything else under the same premise. “hey it helps the country bozo you’re gonna buy it. Do your part to help the economy” uh….no
Basically you’re saying that the framers of our Constitution wanted to give us a central government of UNLIMITED power. No, they didn’t want to, and they didn’t set it up that way. You are imagining things in your totalitarian dreams.
You’re no Constitutional scholar, Raven.
Posted by: Joe White | February 23, 2011, 3:10 pm 3:10 pm
Goodness this guy is really panicking! I NEED THOSE GAY VOTES! What else can I change on to get votes?
Posted by: wheresmymoney | February 23, 2011, 3:19 pm 3:19 pm
You’re no Constitutional scholar, Raven.
Posted by: Joe White | Feb 23, 2011 3:10:50 PM
You neither Joe White, nor a judge.
“Judge Gladys Kessler of the Federal District Court for the District of Columbia ruled Tuesday that the individual mandate provision of the ACA, which requires everyone to have insurance by 2014 or else pay a penalty, is in line with the U.S. Constitution.
Kessler is the third Bill Clinton-appointed judge to side with the Obama administration on the legality of the healthcare reform law. Two other judges — both appointed by Republican presidents — have declared parts of the law unconstitutional, including Florida Judge Roger Vinson, who was recently asked by the administration to clarify his ruling. A total of 13 courts have dismissed the case all together.”
Posted by: Alyson | February 23, 2011, 3:26 pm 3:26 pm
“It is pure semantics to argue that an individual who makes a choice to forgo health insurance is not ‘acting,’ especially given the serious economic and health-related consequences to every individual of that choice,” Kessler wrote. “Making a choice is an affirmative action, whether one decides to do something or not do something. They are two sides of the same coin. To pretend otherwise is to ignore reality.”
Posted by: Alyson | February 23, 2011, 3:27 pm 3:27 pm
The Dems are proving they are not leaders. Leaders do not run and hide so they do not have to vote. Leaders do not create laws that allow them to continue to be voted back to office. The dems are scared chickens
Posted by: Jim Rod | February 23, 2011, 3:30 pm 3:30 pm
Posted by: Raven | Feb 23, 2011 2:25:06 PM
Wow! You really know and seem to hate a lot about Bush. It would be nice if we knew as much about Mr. Open and transparent, but oh! That’s right. HIS RECORDS ARE SEALED.
Posted by: wheresmymoney | February 23, 2011, 3:33 pm 3:33 pm
LOL…LOL…Don’t you just love all those hard core “black and white thinkers” and their “logic”. If it isn’t the topic of “abortion”; it’s all about the “gays”. LOL…The world is changing and will continue to change, folks… whether you want it to or not. Live your life the way you want and let others do the same. It is time to give up your “tyrannical beliefs” that you can force your “moral values” on others. What a “shock” to GOP’ers and conservatives everywhere?! LOL…LOL
Posted by: CND FOX | February 23, 2011, 3:34 pm 3:34 pm
Fact is, anyone who doesn’t know that gas prices will spike in the spring and summer as demand peaks and instead sees some vast, shadowy conspiracy, is a moron. I was fully expecting $4.00 a gallon gas by July regardless.
Posted by: Raven | Feb 23, 2011 2:44:25 PM
So, when gas prices went up when Bush was President, and the media was showing all the angry people, you weren’t one of those? You just thought it was a normal spike? I doubt that.
Posted by: wheresmymoney | February 23, 2011, 3:39 pm 3:39 pm
I have a hard problem understanding why people think what he did was wrong. He is stating that the US government should not appeal a decision. Isn’t that what is supposed to happen? When a decision is made by a lower court, isn’t the losing side supposed to decide whether or not to appeal?
Posted by: kay | February 23, 2011, 3:41 pm 3:41 pm
I love it. The “black and white, draconian” past is changing right before our very eyes. I would say that the President has found his “sea legs”. And by the looks of the dropouts from GOP “potentials” for 2012…I would say they are thinking the same thing. No sense in “destroying their credibilty” by trying to “herd the crazy extremes of the Party” into a “rational direction”. LOL…LOL
Posted by: CND FOX
____________________
Well, don’t LOL too loudly just yet. According to the latest Rasmussen poll, Obama’s approval rating is 23%. So far there hasn’t been an incumbent President who won re-election with an approval rating of 23%. Why is his approval rating so low?
We have a recession with gas prices going through the roof. We have an unemployment rate that is over 9%, along with two wars. Yet, despite all this, Obama has nothing better to do with his time then to push gay marriages whether the public agrees with them or not.
Posted by: spike | February 23, 2011, 3:41 pm 3:41 pm
“Marriage” is a religious-rooted idealogy that has no part in America, per the Constitution’s assertion that the government will not recognize religious bodies. Thus, this whole thread is a moot point.
Posted by: Gdad | February 23, 2011, 3:45 pm 3:45 pm
LOL…LOl…”Rasmussen”..Spike? LOL…You might have just as well quoted “Faux Noise” on that poll! LOL…LOL
Posted by: CND FOX | February 23, 2011, 3:49 pm 3:49 pm
“The courts have already ruled the Law unconstitutional. What Obama did was to not appeal it any longer and continue to defend it since he thinks it is a waste of time,” – Zazu
Good, now he can cease defending YesWeCanCare™ since that was ruled unconstitutional too.
Posted by: Noz | February 23, 2011, 3:51 pm 3:51 pm
“Obama is gay. Michelle is a man.” – Ben
Well at least he’s still in a Marriage since the definition of that is the Union of a Man and a Woman. It doesn’t matter who’s the man and who’s the woman as long as their puzzle pieces fit together.
When there’s a mismatch the union is called Garriage™.
: o )
Posted by: Noz | February 23, 2011, 3:55 pm 3:55 pm
I’m jealous of the 2012 GOP presidential candidate. He/she will have lots of fun. Can’t wait ;)
Posted by: nice | February 23, 2011, 3:55 pm 3:55 pm
When you can’t legislate it, adjudicate it.
- unknown liberal Confucius
Posted by: LOL | February 23, 2011, 3:56 pm 3:56 pm
When you can’t legislate it, adjudicate it.
- unknown liberal Confucius
Posted by: LOL | February 23, 2011, 3:56 pm 3:56 pm
GOZ et al.
*marriage* should not be recognized by the government AT ALL. It is the acknowledgement of a religious ideal . . which is unconstitutional. You are free to perform your own religious ceremony make a spiritual commitment to your significant other– man, woman, dog, whatever. But keep marriage out of the government . . period! This should be a NON ISSUE.
Posted by: Gdad | February 23, 2011, 3:59 pm 3:59 pm
How do you tell a Wisconsin teacher from a Greek? You can’t…
“ATHENS, Greece — They blockade highway toll booths to give drivers free passage. They cover subway ticket machines with plastic bags so commuters can’t pay. Even doctors are joining in, preventing patients from paying fees at state hospitals.
“Some call it civil disobedience. Others a freeloading spirit. Either way, Greece’s ‘I Won’t Pay’ movement has sparked heated debate in a nation reeling from a debt crisis that’s forced the government to take drastic austerity measures — including higher taxes, wage and pension cuts, and price spikes in public services.”
Gimme gimme gimme. Mine mine mine. When they start gorging at the public trough they become morbidly obese, and they can’t help themselves.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | February 23, 2011, 4:09 pm 4:09 pm
Posted by: Gdad | Feb 23, 2011 4:07:12 PM
I am aware of Jefferson’s letter.
However it is not part of the Constitution.
Check your foot.
Posted by: Noz | February 23, 2011, 4:12 pm 4:12 pm
GDAD – if that is true then why does the government require a marriage license???
Posted by: mj | February 23, 2011, 4:15 pm 4:15 pm
Makes me want to SQUEAL LIKE A PIG.
Posted by: billy bob | February 23, 2011, 4:22 pm 4:22 pm
MJ– That’s my point. The government shouldn’t require one, period. There should be no recognition in law of marriage.
Posted by: Gdad | February 23, 2011, 4:22 pm 4:22 pm
It is disgusting to me that Obama, Holder or the DOJ not only flaunt the Constitution but also seem to arrogantly think they determine what’s constitutional or not and just ignore the laws they don’t like or which don’t serve their political purposes. So far as I know, at least so far, it’s our court system which does that.
We need to get Obama and his henchmen and handmaidens out of Washington as soon as possible so it stays that way.
Posted by: RME KRNL | February 23, 2011, 4:40 pm 4:40 pm
Obama had 2 years to come to the same conclusion, but for obvious political reasons did not. In fact, he had a Democrat majority Congress that would have been much more likely to support repeal of DOMA. Although, he knew that even the Democrat Congress wouldn’t repeal it. Knowing how little support there is for this even in his own party, he was smart to wait until Republicans assumed office. At the same time, do not insult our intelligence and act like this was a spontaneous act arrived at purely out of circumstance, as the people know better. In fact, most of the American people will see this for what it is — a distraction from our number 1 priority — the economy and the taming of our out-of-control government.
Posted by: Anonymous | February 23, 2011, 4:41 pm 4:41 pm
I think many people are so against Obama & dislike him for whatever reason (African American, Democrat, intelligent), that you can’t see the good things that are being done for you. Every move Obama makes in your eyes is bad … even if it’s to your benefit. It’s sad & you are blind … open up your eyes.
Posted by: Linda | February 23, 2011, 4:49 pm 4:49 pm
This is almost as bad as G W Bush saying he would only act on the portions of bills his executive branch found “Constitutional”.
The President does NOT have the power to find a bill Constitutional: the Supreme Court does.
Posted by: The_Mick | February 23, 2011, 4:52 pm 4:52 pm
Since being gay is NOT illegal in the US Any law abiding gay citizens would be covered by the constitution. The constitution says the government has to be fair and equal in what it provides to its citizens. Respect the Constitution and this will be a no brainer…..
Posted by: dylan | February 23, 2011, 5:02 pm 5:02 pm
To all those saying “This should be a non-issue” would you have said that about equal rights for blacks? Was that a non-issue or a moot point?
You’re also completely failing to recognize that marriage is a social bond, the most important one in our society, not necessarily a religious one. As an atheist, I intend to get married still.
And who cares if there are more important issues facing the US? Should the president deal ONLY with the MOST important issue? Of course not, he must divide his time between all issues, one of which is the equal treatment of gays and lesbians.
Denying gays and lesbians equal rights to marriage is a completely immoral and indefensible position to hold, which is supported by ignorant people, likely due to their religious beliefs.
Posted by: Dean | February 23, 2011, 5:02 pm 5:02 pm
I never really agree with the Obama administration,but this time they finally got it right,definition of marriage is 1 man and 1 woman,do I need to say more?
Posted by: orlando velazquez | February 23, 2011, 5:09 pm 5:09 pm
Note to Yuppers:
“It still amazes me that so many can’t STAND the fact that we have a Constitutional scholar…in the White House…”
You are just the type of halfway informed voter the progressives like to lead around by the nose.
Despite the liberal lamestream media’s misleading (and propagandist) comments to the contrary, Obama was never a Constitutional “scholar.” He was not even a Constitutional Law professor. He was just a Constitutional Law lecturer, which any halfway intelligent person with a copy of the document in hand can do. I know. I studied Constitutional Law and have a JD.
And it’s not that I can’t stand a so-called Constitutional “scholar” being in the White House. It’s that I don’t like a poseur president who’s so arrogant he thinks thinks he can ignore the parts of the Constitution he doesn’t like or which don’t serve his political purposes. He swore an oath to uphold ALL of the Constitution and be the president of ALL Americans. So far, he has failed miserably at both.
Besides, it’s our COURT SYSTEM, as specified in the CONSTITUTION, by the way, which decides what is constitutional or not — not any so-called scholar, much less only a lecturer.
Posted by: RME KRNL | February 23, 2011, 5:10 pm 5:10 pm
Yet another example of the man’s hubris. Regardless of his personal opinion of the law, it is not his role to interpret the constitutionality of it. Rather, it is his role to enforce it. If he wishes to interpret the laws, he went into the wrong branch of government.
Posted by: Brad | February 23, 2011, 5:11 pm 5:11 pm
“RME KRNL”…so let me get this straight. Then for the world to be made “whole” we should instead adhere to “your subjective interpretation” of what is constitutional or not? And at the same time only “adhere” to your own personal “moral views and iterpretaions”. Is that what I am hearing you say? Well here is what I say to that…LOL…LOL…LOL
Posted by: CND FOX | February 23, 2011, 5:14 pm 5:14 pm
Honestly I do not see what the big debate is all about… Tell me what will it hurt if same sex couples are able to legally get married? I am sure everyone has heard the joke… they deserve to be just as unhappy as the rest of us. This country was founded on the premise of freedom from persecution be it religious or other. When it comes to the law one has to remove their religious beliefs and look solely at the law itself… and again I will ask what will it hurt? Can’t use the insurance argument because if they both worked for companies that provide insurance and other benefits they each would be covered etc. Taxes??? Don’t see a big pro or con there.
Posted by: NoSpin1600 | February 23, 2011, 5:19 pm 5:19 pm
And again, we have another case of reading comprehension disorder.
The DoJ will enforce the law until it is repealed or stricken down.
The DoJ will not, nor is it obligated to, defend the constitutionality of the law in court.
And for the record, the difference between a Professor of Law and Senior Lecturer at the University of Chicago is whether they’re on a tenure track. Their jobs are identical.
Posted by: Yukon Sam | February 23, 2011, 5:30 pm 5:30 pm
When did this clown become a “constitutional scholar?” He was a lecturer, not in constitutional law but in the limited subject of the equal protection clause.
And scholars get published in scholarly journals.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | February 23, 2011, 5:58 pm 5:58 pm
From Pew Research, a little trip down PATCO union memory lane:
“[T]he public solidly supported Reagan’s action. Fully 59% of Americans approved of the way he was handling the issue, according to a Gallup poll conducted a few days after he fired the controllers. A Harris survey at about the same time showed that by 51% to 40%, more said they were in sympathy with the Reagan administration than with the air traffic controllers.”
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | February 23, 2011, 5:59 pm 5:59 pm
No, Sam, they’re not. Tenure-track professors are expected to publish research. Instructors just teach.
Posted by: Jose | February 23, 2011, 6:00 pm 6:00 pm
there is a gap of between $1 Trillion and $3 Trillion between what unionized state and localmpublic employees have been promised ij pension and retirement benefits and the money that will be available for thoe purposes. Where do they think that money will come from?
The answer is, it won’t. And that gives me great joy.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | February 23, 2011, 7:07 pm 7:07 pm
First, Diane Sawyer’s lead-in to this report was blatantly biased and very misleading. She said that when President Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act states were moving to legalize homosexual marriage. The fact of the matter is states were and have overwhelmingly voted to ban homosexual marriage. Years after the Defense of Marriage Act was passed, a few states’ Supreme Courts struck down their state laws banning homosexual marriage.
Second, President Obama is acting against the responsibilities of his office by not defending a law on the books. Defense and enforcement of existing laws are required by the Executive.
Posted by: Chris Graves | February 23, 2011, 7:12 pm 7:12 pm
Constitutional scholar Bill Clinton (J.D., Yale), who signed the DOMA into law, evidently believed it was constitutional. So did Obama while defending it over the past two years.
What caused him to change his mind? Did he receive a new legal memo? Did an angel visit him in a dream? Is he perhaps simply a cynical politician?
Trivia question: Who is the only Harvard Law Review president in history never to have Been published in a legal journal?
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | February 23, 2011, 7:15 pm 7:15 pm
How ironic that for all the ways Obama’s big government has already intruded on State rights, his action today supports the opposite notion – that such a federal law is an unnecessary imposition on those very States. Or does it? Maybe his ultra-liberal agenda disctates flip-flopping to suit his whims.
Anyone else detect a one-term hypocrite?
Posted by: Centrist | February 23, 2011, 7:36 pm 7:36 pm
“What caused him to change his mind?”
——
There’s no indication that he changed his mind. The appropriate question is what happened that forced him to make a clear stand.
As the blog post points out, the Obama admin has always maintained that DOMA “was a unnecessary imposition on what had been the traditional rules governing marriage and how states interact on the issues of marriage.”
Two lawsuits filed in November of 2010 pushed the administration to reach its decision.
The NYT wrote about this a few weeks ago @ “Suits on Same-Sex Marriage May Force Administration to Take a Stand”:
“Unlike previous challenges, the new lawsuits were filed in districts covered by the appeals court in New York — one of the only circuits with no modern precedent saying how to evaluate claims that a law discriminates against gay people. That means that the administration, for the first time, may be required to take a clear stand. ”
When push came to shove they could no longer have it both ways so they had to make their position clear.
Tapper addresses this briefly in the 7th paragraph above. The NYT article is worth a read for those who are confused.
Posted by: Elsa 63 | February 23, 2011, 8:00 pm 8:00 pm
Prof. Orin Kerr (who opposes DOMA0:
“Here’s what I fear will happen. If Congress passes legislation on a largely party-line vote, the losing side just has to fashion some constitutional theories for why the legislation is unconstitutional and then wait for its side to win the Presidency. As soon as its side wins the Presidency, activists on its side can file constitutional challenges based on the theories; the Executive branch can adopt the theories and conclude that, based on the theories, the legislation is unconstitutional; and then the challenges to the legislation will go undefended.”
Please take note: the next president, relying on Mr. Obama’s precedent, can decline to defend suits against Obamacare.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | February 23, 2011, 8:24 pm 8:24 pm
It’s very clear that the president has changed his mind. His administration defended DOMA in the case of Gill v. OPM, summarized as follows:
“Gill et al. v. Office of Personnel Management 699 F.Supp.2d 374 (D.Mass., 2010) is a lawsuit filed in the United States District Court for the District of Massachusetts. The plaintiffs in the suit challenge the constitutionality of section 3 of the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), the section that defines the terms ‘marriage’ as ‘a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife” and ‘spouse’ as ‘a person of the opposite sex who is a husband or a wife.’
“The trial began on May 6, 2010, and was heard by District Judge Joseph Louis Tauro. On July 8, Tauro ruled section 3 of DOMA unconstitutional in a summary judgment. He later stayed the implementation of his decision pending appeal and the Department of Justice entered an appeal on October 12, 2010.”
Note carefully: Obama not only defended the Act, he took an appeal from an adverse judgment at the trial court level.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | February 23, 2011, 8:34 pm 8:34 pm
There are many compelling comments following Orin Kerr’s post.I reject the comparison to the Bush admin’s power grabs as this decision isn’t unprecedented and there are better examples to which one could compare the change. Even Kerr acknowledges problem with it. Besides that, doesn’t either the Congress or the Court get to appoint a special counsel to argue the law’s constitutionality?
Posted by: Elsa 63 | February 23, 2011, 8:57 pm 8:57 pm
Fascist Hyena, I encourage you to read “Suits on Same-Sex Marriage May Force Administration to Take a Stand” at the New York Times. I acknowledge there can be different takeaways but the NYT suggestion makes more sense than yours.
NYT: “Unlike previous challenges, the new lawsuits were filed in districts covered by the appeals court in New York — one of the only circuits with no modern precedent saying how to evaluate claims that a law discriminates against gay people. That means that the administration, for the first time, may be required to take a clear stand. “
Posted by: Elsa 63 | February 23, 2011, 9:02 pm 9:02 pm
Now if we could only stop the DOJ from harassing leftists in the midwest
Posted by: Flash Override | February 23, 2011, 9:06 pm 9:06 pm
This is so foolish. Homosexual men have the same right to marry women as heterosexual men have. Homosexual women have the same right to marry men as heterosexual women have.
So what’s their problem?
Posted by: Bob | February 23, 2011, 9:14 pm 9:14 pm
Separation of powers is so old school.
Let’s dismantle the Judicial Branch.
We don’t need it anymore.
We have Obama.
Change!
Posted by: Justin | February 23, 2011, 9:30 pm 9:30 pm
I’m aware of what the NY Times says, and am also aware that it makes no sense at all. If the president can direct his justice department to argue the law’s constitutionality in the district court, and can take an appeal from a judgment of unconstitutionality by that court, he can just as appropriately argue its constitutionality in any of the circuit courts or the Supreme Court. If he felt a duty to argue for the law at the district court level, nothing said by any court short of the Supreme Court need affect his decision in any way.
Holder’s justice department has issued any number of absolutely screwball statements about the law in the past two years, and this is another one.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | February 23, 2011, 9:59 pm 9:59 pm
“Besides that, doesn’t either the Congress or the Court get to appoint a special counsel to argue the law’s constitutionality?”
I know that the Court can do so; not sure about the congress. But that has no bearing on the fact that Obama has necessarily changed his mind about the constitutionality of this Act–or at least he has changed his mind about something, no knowing what.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | February 23, 2011, 10:02 pm 10:02 pm
“Making a choice is an affirmative action, whether one decides to do something or not do something.”
The judge cited no judicial precedent for that assertion, because there is none. But if it were true, then the congress could compel everyone to buy a general motors automobile, on the ground that by choosing not to do so they were acting in a way that affected interstate commerce. And they could compel them to eat broccoli on the same grounds, or not to sleep in in the morning because their decision not to work affected interstate commerce.
Saying that “inaction” is “action” is not mere semantics. It is Alice in Wonderland.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | February 23, 2011, 10:06 pm 10:06 pm
Ilya Somin:
“Any time someone fails to purchase a product, be it cars, movie tickets, or broccoli, producers are made economically worse off than they would be if the potential buyer had made a different decision. This is true regardless of whether the producers must provide services to some consumers for free or not.”
Judge Kessler would hold that the congress can make you buy movie tickets, broccoli and whatever else it wants you to buy.
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | February 23, 2011, 10:11 pm 10:11 pm
We need to have a print out of the Constition of the United Stats of America in 2011. There have been so many line strikes and amendments, we have NOTHING in print to help us understand our expectations. Old Business doesn’t work. The Constition was written by Protestant Christians, and today, that is the minority in the USA.
Posted by: Perry | February 23, 2011, 10:43 pm 10:43 pm
Being an “extraordinary person”, to quote Obama, who is infatuated with just anybody doesn’t alone qualify one for marriage. You could say that the man in Germany who is in love with his daughter and lives in sexual union with her deserves to marry her because they are in love – does that make it suddenly okay? No.
Posted by: EPU | February 23, 2011, 10:48 pm 10:48 pm
The President of the United States and the Attorney General have a duty to follow and uphold the laws of this land. They have no right to force their dictatorial views on the rest of us. The President’s focus should be on the economic and foreign policy crises which plague the world. The great Presidents (Washington, Lincoln and FDR) would not have catered to selfish groups who claim rights but never assume responsibility. It should be remembered that Sparta fell because it was obsessed with carnal materialistic appetites. George Santayana observed that those who not remember history are doomed to repeat it.
Posted by: Carol Raphael BROSNAN | February 23, 2011, 10:56 pm 10:56 pm
With the world burning all around him, this is obviously the most critical issue to occupy Obama at the moment. Unbelievable.
Posted by: Chuck | February 23, 2011, 11:00 pm 11:00 pm
Raven wrote:
“You neither Joe White, nor a judge.”
Very true. But I can logically defend what I write.
I took apart your assertion that Obamacare is “perfectly constitutional, on several grounds (regulation of interstate commerce, taxation authority, promotion of the general welfare”
Instead of defending what you said, you merely pretend that it doesnt exist.
Posted by: Joe White | February 24, 2011, 12:24 am 12:24 am
Posted by: Joe White | Feb 24, 2011 12:24:17 AM
Yes, Joe White, you’re very meticulous which is why you’re accusing Raven of writing what I did at 3:26:27 PM
eyeroll.
And to correct your misinformation, I didn’t pretend your argument didn’t exist. I pointed out that several judges disagree with you and quoted the latest to do so. All you did was repeat a lame version of the opinion that will lose when it goes to the Supreme Court.
Posted by: Alyson | February 24, 2011, 1:07 am 1:07 am
Posted by: Fascist Hyena | Feb 23, 2011 10:11:02 PM
Ilya’s argument is cliched, partisan, superficial and rather sloppy as it is easy to pay for all of those things out of pocket or opt out of the market all together. Not everyone will need as a matter of life or death broccoli or a car at some point in their life.
Posted by: Alyson | February 24, 2011, 1:24 am 1:24 am
Billy Bob wrote:
“GDAD – if that is true then why does the government require a marriage license???”
In former times marriage was a private agreement between a man and a woman. Serfs and slaves had to have their masters’ permission (“license”).
The Catholic Church started requiring people to be married by a priest. At that time the Church was the only government-recognized religion. With the rise of the Protestant Reformation, there eventually came to be many different religious bodies, each with its own marriage register. To counter confusion and people marrying one person in one church and another in a different church, the governments began taking over marriage registration.
Recall that “Serfs and slaves had to have their masters’ permission (‘license’).”
So we have to buy a marriage license, which is really a receipt for the tax paid, in order to register our marriages as tax-serfs so our marriages will be recognized by the government.
Simple?
Posted by: Bob | February 24, 2011, 9:18 am 9:18 am
Alyson wrote:
” All you did was repeat a lame version of the opinion that will lose when it goes to the Supreme Court. ”
It’s not just ‘my opinion’ that taxes have to be paid to a government entity and not to a private company.
It’s a fact.
Therefore, arguing that Obamacare’s individual mandate is constitutional because ‘Congress has taxation authority’ is nonsense.
Insurance companies aren’t authorized by the Constitution to be the tax collector for the US govt.
When you buy insurance, the money goes to the insurance company, not the government.
Do you get it? They aren’t the same. (At least not yet. We’ve been hearing about separation of church and state, but apparently what we need when Democrats are in office is separation of business and state. Democrats used to be opposed to corporate welfare. What happened?)
————
It’s not just ‘my opinion’ that the interstate commerce clause deals with commerce.
It’s a fact.
‘Not buying’ something isn’t ‘commerce’. Do you get it yet?
———-
It isn’t just ‘my opinion’ that the General Welfare clause can’t be interpreted as giving Congress unlimited authority to compel Americans to engage in commerce with private companies.
It’s a fact.
The Founders did not envision an all powerful central government. Quite the opposite.
Let’s say that studies proved that those who skipped breakfast were unhealthier than the population at large and that they end up costing the nation more $$ due to health care consequences of their non-action.
Do you think the Constitution allows Congress to compel every American to purchase breakfast?
Lets say that studies show that Americans who dont buy a brand new car every two years end up costing the nation precious jobs thru their nonaction.
Do you think the Constitution allows Congress to compel every American to buy a new car?
Hello?
Posted by: Joe White | February 24, 2011, 10:23 am 10:23 am
Hello?
Posted by: Joe White | Feb 24, 2011 10:23:58 AM
Like I said is all you did was repeat an opinion that will lose when the matter gets to the Supreme Court– — and this time around you did it even worse than the first time.
Let’s see where the judges land on this:
“Kessler is the third Bill Clinton-appointed judge to side with the Obama administration on the legality of the healthcare reform law. Two other judges — both appointed by Republican presidents — have declared parts of the law unconstitutional, including Florida Judge Roger Vinson, who was recently asked by the administration to clarify his ruling. A total of 13 courts have dismissed the case all together.”
Congress has the right to tax and regulate commerce, and the Necessary and Proper clause states that The Congress shall have Power – To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
You are confused on where the taxation comes in (the penalty for the individual mandate, which can be looked as tax exemptions for everyone who DOES buy insurance, if that makes it easier for you).
The difference between health care versus all the products you guys use to try to make your point is that you can buy most of the products you mention out of pocket and predict how much they’ll cost making pooling risk unnecessary unlike health care, and you don’t have to enter the market at some point in your life as a matter of life and death.
We’ll see how it turns out, but you haven’t done a good job at picking apart the arguments for the constitutionality. For that,you’ll have to go at Necessary and Proper and cite precedent.
good luck.
Posted by: Alyson | February 24, 2011, 12:21 pm 12:21 pm
Alyson wrote:
“The difference between health care versus all the products you guys use to try to make your point is that you can buy most of the products you mention out of pocket”
People buy health care services out of pocket all the time. What are you talking about?
There are a myriad of health care services and products that can be and are purchased out of pocket.
But Obamacare lumps ALL health care service into one category — regardless of cost.
Posted by: Joe White | February 24, 2011, 1:58 pm 1:58 pm
Alyson wrote:
“You are confused on where the taxation comes in (the penalty for the individual mandate”
No confusion here.
Insurance companies are set to fill their coffers because the law requires citizens to write them a check.
That’s taxation, and the money goes to a private company. That’s why it’s unconstitutional.
You say, no no no, the only tax is the penalty.
Yes, lets talk about the penalty also.
Do you think that the Constitution authorizes Congress to throw a tax penalty on you if you aren’t a fastfood breakfast customer?
That’s what is done with Obamacare.
The government takes the position that ‘insurance’ is the only valid method of accessing health care (and accessing health is somehow now required, not optional). So if you aren’t buying insurance you get taxed.
What if fastfood restaurants became the government’s ONLY solution to providing breakfast (and breakfast was then defined as required because without it you’ll be less healthy)?
Should the government throw a tax penalty on those who dont do breakfast in the governmentally approved way?
Do you really think that the framers of our constitution would’ve been ok with the ‘establishment’ of an industry by government fiat?
They weren’t ok with an established (i.e. government-sponsored) church, what makes you think they’d like an established (i.e. government-sponsored) corporation (or product line)?
Democrats are desperate to appear generous and good hearted , so they taken a totalitarian approach to ‘providing’ a solution to health care.
After months and years of complaining and demonizing insurance companies, Democrats now FORCE you to do business with them.
Why don’t rich Democrat multimillionaires like the Kennedys, Barbara Boxer, Claire McCaskill, Jane Harman, Jay Rockefeller, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, George Soros, the Hollywood elite, etc simply buy an insurance company or two, and drastically slash the rates (like they’ve been preaching that insurance companies should do) and allow anyone to enroll at any time (like they’ve been preaching that insurance companies should have been doing all along)?
Why? Because they’d lose their fortunes, that’s why.
Here’s a hint: Dont write regulations for an industry that you dont understand. Let someone who knows the business do that.
Posted by: Joe White | February 24, 2011, 2:20 pm 2:20 pm
RME KMRL, you need to re-read the article.
The court asked the administration to clarify what is the constitutional defense to exclude gays from marriage. The judges who are obviously experts in the constitution and laws, couldn’t find one so asked for clarification. The administration couldn’t find a defense because there isn’t any.
It is really that simple, the DOMA is unconstitutional.
As the President has stated, he will continue to enforce the law, but he can’t have the justice department defend in court a law that goes against the Constitution. By the way, other presidents have done the same thing, enforced but not defended in court a law that was unconstitutional.
Posted by: Lydia | February 24, 2011, 2:31 pm 2:31 pm
GDAD, you brought up an interesting point, that marriage shouldn’t be recognized at all because it is a religious ideal.
I’ve always looked at the legal side of marriage as a business partnership contract, to make division of property easier in case of failure, to give special rights to the partners, like hospital visitations, inclusion on health insurance, etc. I think many religious types who object to gay marriage forget that from the government’s point of view it is simply a businesslike legal arrangement. The religious beliefs a couple attach to it are personal and should not affect how the government considers marriage, remembering the separation of church and state. Your personal religious beliefs shouldn’t affect someone else’s right to get married for the same reason. Individual churches can exclude gay marriage, but the government should not.
Posted by: Lydia | February 24, 2011, 2:37 pm 2:37 pm
Lydia wrote:
“what is the constitutional defense to exclude gays from marriage”
Homosexuals are not denied the legal right to marry.
Any homosexual person may marry a member of the opposite sex. And many have.
But there are legal restrictions regarding who any person may marry, and they apply to heterosexuals as well. So homosexuals arent being ‘discriminated against’.
A homosexual cannot legally marry his sibling.
And neither can a heterosexual.
A homosexual cannot legally marry his parent.
And neither can a heterosexual.
A homosexual cannot legally marry his child.
And neither can a heterosexual.
A homosexual cannot legally marry more than one person at a time.
And neither can a heterosexual.
A homosexual cannot legally marry someone of the same gender.
And neither can a heterosexual.
The rules are the same for everyone. No discrimination.
Posted by: Joe White | February 24, 2011, 2:47 pm 2:47 pm
Posted by: Joe White | Feb 24, 2011 1:58:29 PM
People pool risk to pay for services in the case of catastrophic costs more often.
Like I said, you’re articulating the case for the losing side and not doing it very well.
We’ll see what happens when it goes to the Supreme Court. Right now, more judges have ruled against your wild-eyed opinions than with.
Posted by: Alyson | February 24, 2011, 3:01 pm 3:01 pm
what is wrong with it. i say to each there own an to be honest its no ones business who u want to marry.
Posted by: Roger | February 24, 2011, 3:11 pm 3:11 pm
Joe White, your explanation is amazingly wrong.
If DOMA prevents same-sex marriages it is denying individual’s their right to marry the person that they love. You seem to forget that is the reason people get married, to spend the rest of their life with the consenting, non-related, legal-age person they love most in the world.
And gender isn’t what makes a person an adult with unalienable rights in this country. Just as we don’t discriminate against women because of gender as we did in the past because it is unconstitutional, we shouldn’t be discriminating by gender when telling people who they can love and marry.
(I have to confess, years ago, I felt it would be icky to see two gay people married. And then I actually got to know 2 gay people through work. It totally changed my mind and I actually feel quite stupid for thinking the way I did. Just as when I was young and influenced by my mildly racist dad, I thought black people were ‘different’ than me, code word for not as good. Once I grew up and had black co-workers and friends I quickly realized how wrong my mild-brainwashing was. It is very freeing to see people as they are, rather than what was told to you as a child.)
Posted by: Lydia | February 24, 2011, 3:24 pm 3:24 pm
“If DOMA prevents same-sex marriages it is denying individual’s their right to marry the person that they love.” – Lydia
DOMA does not prevent Marriages.
It does not deny anyone from their individual right to Marry the one they love.
What you are doing is confusing someone’s right to Marry with another’s right to Garry.
Marriage and Garriage are two different things
Posted by: Noz | February 24, 2011, 3:34 pm 3:34 pm
Noz, to me, the word and concept of garriage is just plain silly.
Two consenting, non-related, legal-age adults should be able to be married. What is different about the institution whether you are gay or straight from a legal point of view, which is what the government is concerned with, not the religious stuff? Getting married is entering into a business-like partnershop with legal rights and rules about ending said relationship. Gender sould have nothing to do with it.
Separation of church and state should mean that some religion’s banning of gay marriage should not affect the government’s view of the right to marry.
Posted by: Lydia | February 24, 2011, 3:44 pm 3:44 pm
“Two consenting, non-related, legal-age adults should be able to be married.” – Lydia
Agreed, provided one is a Man and one is a Woman.
Lydia, we have words for everything.
You wouldn’t be calling it Gay Marriage if it wasn’t different in some way.
It is different and it is called Garriage.
Maybe you have an agenda?
Posted by: Noz | February 24, 2011, 4:01 pm 4:01 pm
Noz, my only agenda is to treat all Americans as equal under the law. I consider it my patriotic duty to do so.
Your premise that I call it gay marriage because it is different than straight marriage is silly. The topic of the post is DOMA, remember?
Why would anyone need a different word for gay marriage? Do you think if you meet a guy at a dinner party and he says he’s married, you’ll have to wonder if it is a straight or gay marriage? And why would you care, honestly? I guess that is what is the real problem for some, labelling to keep people focused on the differences rather than what we all have in common. Or the sense of superiority of belonging to one group as opposed to another. Some of us feel superior because of the sports teams we are fans of, some of us, God help them, feel superior because of the religion or subset of a religion we belong to. But is it necessary or even helpful to try to define marriage by category, too?
Posted by: Lydia | February 24, 2011, 4:55 pm 4:55 pm
Lydia wrote
“If DOMA prevents same-sex marriages it is denying individual’s their right to marry the person that they love.”
What if they love someone they are related to? On what basis do you deny them the ‘right’ to marry?
What if they love MORE THAN one person?
On what basis do you deny them?
You ‘discriminate’ too. You simply won’t admit it.
Posted by: Joe White | February 24, 2011, 5:37 pm 5:37 pm
“Noz, my only agenda is to treat all Americans as equal under the law. I consider it my patriotic duty to do so.” – Lydia
Then you are in favor of a flat federal income tax instead of the current graduated rates we operate under.
Equal doesn’t necessarily mean Fair.
Do you want to be equal or fair?
“Your premise that I call it gay marriage because it is different than straight marriage is silly.” – Lydia
Why do you find what is obviously true silly?
Posted by: Noz | February 24, 2011, 7:23 pm 7:23 pm
Personnally to say that a person should be allowed to marry who they want and love is to me one thing but isnt it true that a large amount of gay people once had some type of sexually confusion within the home or had been molested in some way? At least that is what the statics show. Honestly if you cant make babies together, its not right to marry. Marriage represent family and to marry one man to another does not seem mentally correct. You say you believe in God, then what happen to Adam and Eve? It wasnt Adam and Steve or we would not be here. If we are trying to destroy our human race then you allow Gay marraige. If you are trying to give your kids a better future You end this mental problem fast! Its not normal to marry same sex and to introduce this to kids is sick. So I guess like the statement was made earlier about marriage to a relative would be ok, if you are sick. Everyone defending these sex laws are not fit to have kids or raise kids! They are the ones who molest kids and spread diseases! Be honest with yourself for a change. How did you decide you were gay? was you touched in some way or was it your partner? I bet it wasnt right in the begining. so what make you think its right now!
Posted by: Jaamall | March 1, 2011, 10:32 am 10:32 am
One Branch to pass bills and send to become laws
Legislative (Congress)
One Branch to sign/veto bills and execute the law
Executive (President)
One Branch to decide the legality of the law
Judicial (Court)
To me it seams like one branch is not doing the job it was setup to do. To me it looks like one branch is trying to do the job of another branch. What are we to do if all three powers reside with one branch, it’s no longer a branch, its the whole tree
Posted by: Mike | March 3, 2011, 11:03 am 11:03 am
Incredibly, most states in the United States- the country in which prides itself on being a symbol of freedom- still do not allow lesbian and gay couples to share in the responsibilities and commitment of marriage. In those few states and District of Columbia that do allow the freedom to marry, the so-called Defense of Marriage Act excludes same-sex couples from the more than 1,000 federal protections of marriage including all IRS and Social Security spousal protections.
Tell me, though, what does this Defense of Marriage Act truly defend? Is it really a ground principle or is merely a common philosophy? Wow, one might say, look at this opinionated college student using all this savvy language. In actuality, however, a ground principle is based on fact- a truth. To say only a man and woman can reproduce is a ground principle. That idea is based upon biological fact. But to define marriage as a “legal union between one man and one woman” as the DOMA does is as reasonable as defining what religion is. However, any American citizen knows that the First Amendment states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”. Do you see the irony in that? I know I certainly do.
Let’s go back to when we were children. If you were a little girl, you probably imagined getting married and living happily ever after at very young age- I know I did. For boys, this time usually doesn’t come until later, but eventually by their teens, most guys know that they, too, want to have this kind of bond with someone one day. Of course, growing up as American children, we have culturally defined prototypes of what marriage is, but we don’t focus on who we marry. Rather, we focus on why we marry- to be loved, to be happy, to have someone in our lives that means everything to us forever.
Looking back on those initial feelings about marriage, I have to say my feelings haven’t changed. I still want to get married one day. I still want to have that one person I can fall back on, no matter what, because they’re the person I decided to spend the rest of my life with. And sitting next to my boyfriend, that is so easy to imagine. Honestly, that is so easy to have. Heck, if I wanted to grab a witness and a couple proofs of identification, I could go to City Hall today and have a nationally recognized marriage license by tomorrow. But what about some of my closest friends who have been with their partners for much longer than my boyfriend and I- whose relationships are much more serious, much stronger, much more mature? What about them? Are they meant to live together “freely” in love, or in some kind of “union” for the rest of their lives? Okay, well I guess that’s acceptable- we can get away with saying that’s “fair”. In fact, that would almost be great… except life happens.
Partners in any relationship don’t always make the same level of income. And as a society, we’ve come to accept that. As a result, when life happens and someone gets sick, injured, or even worse, dies, we have to hope it doesn’t happen to the main provider or that we’re legally married. Surely, you have heard the line “…until death do us part”. I don’t mean to be cynical, but that’s how we’re all going. That’s going to be the end of all of our relationships. As hard as that kind of loss might be, imagine having to deal with the loss of your home as well because you can no longer pay for it. Imagine losing all of the things that make up life as you know it. If you’re the main provider for your family or incomes within your household are equal, imagine your loved ones going through that.
The idea hurts us. No one enjoys loss or pain, and as a result, we do everything we can to minimize those things. We support these preventions because we recognize that all human beings deserve happiness, yet as a culture of human beings- humans from a country that teaches from day one that we are all created equal- we are unable to to see the hypocrisy in our definition of marriage which is based on a sort of selective equality. Couples who have made a personal commitment to each other for better or for worse and to care for one another in sickness and in health deserve the cultural respect, social support, and legal protections that come with marriage not only because it’s just, but because empathy is what makes us human. Empathy is what enables us to look past our differences, disagreements, and beliefs and see ourselves among us.
Posted by: Stacey | March 30, 2011, 3:51 pm 3:51 pm
Furthermore, to the comments made by Mike:
“isnt it true that a large amount of gay people once had some type of sexually confusion within the home or had been molested in some way? At least that is what the statics show. Honestly if you cant make babies together, its not right to marry.”
In response to your question as to whether gay people have often been molested- yes. What is your point? Do you know how many straight individuals are molested? Millions.
In regards to “sexual confusion”, really, what are you talking about? Even those with most minuscule education in the field of developmental psychology know that environmental factors play a very small role when determining sexual orientation. In fact, sexual orientation actually has more to do with biological factors involving a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment.
In addition, your comment about the inability to have children truly offends me. As a heterosexual woman, I have a family history of infertility. If I go to have a child and learn a similar fate, does that mean I shouldn’t marry? -oh wait, that’s different, right? That’s “natural”. Am I hearing you correctly?
Define natural, Mike. Are we talking about the inherent sense of what is right or wrong? Tell me, who are -you- OR your holy book, (or anyone’s holy book, for that matter), to tell me what is right or wrong? To kill someone, that is wrong. To steal, to lie. What makes those wrong? No, not the Bible or a common theory based off our culture. What makes those things wrong is the harm they inflict on others. Now, what harm do two men or two women marrying inflict on you other than the dent it places on your narrow conscience?
Or, perhaps you were referring to what is “of nature”. One can infer that is relative to the biological processes of the human body. Well, I wouldn’t call desire, love, lust, attachment, or anything else “unnatural”. Would you?
What I really think you were referring to, Mike, is the definition of natural that denotes having a relation to someone or something. I think it bothers you that there are some things you can’t understand. Furthermore, I think the possibility that your Bible has erred. As you seem relatively familiar as to what is and what is not in the Bible, I’m sure you know of the following verse:
“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. ” (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
…but wait, slavery is wrong. There’s no denying that. Funny world we live and believe in, isn’t it?
Posted by: Stacey | March 30, 2011, 4:18 pm 4:18 pm