|'This Week' Transcript: Mayor Thomas Menino|
|Apr 20, 2013, 5:58 PM|
A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday morning, April 21, 2013 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
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OBAMA: Tonight our nation is in debt to the people of Boston.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: Trail of terror.
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BOSTON POLICE OFFICER: We're exhausted, folks. But we have a victory here tonight.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: A city resilient.
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CITIZEN: We're strong. We're in it together.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: A country relieved.
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CROWD: USA! USA!
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STEPHANOPOULOS: This morning, breaking details on the investigation. We remember the victims and ask...
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SUSPECTS UNCLE: It is atrocity. We're shocked.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: Who are the young men behind the carnage?
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SUSPECT'S CLASSMATE: He was a -- really a normal kid. He really didn't seem like the type that would harm a fly.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: What led these unassuming brothers to unspeakable violence? Could it have been prevented? What is the right response to this latest act of terror? We get to the heart of all of those questions right now.
ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, a special edition of This Week with George Stephanopoulos. Reporting from ABC News Headquarters, George Stephanopoulos.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Good morning. What an extraordinary week it has been. Secretary of State Kerry called it a "direct confrontation with evil." Evil met by heroism and resolve. And now, so many questions about what motivated these marathon bombings? And how America should confront the changing nature of terrorism? Boston Mayor, Tom Menino is here to take us behind the scenes of this intense week. But first, let's get the latest on the surviving suspect, and what comes next in the investigation from ABC's Senior Justice Department Correspondent, Pierre Thomas in Washington.
And Pierre, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is in serious condition, and as I understand, in no shape to be questioned?
THOMAS: George, my sources are telling me the suspect has a wound to the neck and throat area that has made it very difficult for him to speak. It is unclear when he would be able to talk. And will he? He apparently knows that police killed his brother, but that Special Interrogation Team is standing by, ready to go.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And they will ask him questions at first without reading him, his Miranda rights. When do you expect charges to be filed?
THOMAS: Charges could come as early as today. Terror charges that could bring the death penalty. He is not going to be read the Miranda Warnings. They are going to use the Public Safety Exception, and dive in without advising him of his right to remain silent. They are taking this extraordinary step because there could be an eminent threat still out there. I just got of the phone, George with a senior law enforcement official who said there's deep, deep concern about the amount of ammunition, guns and working bombs these men had. They were so disciplined.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But any evidence of accomplices, or another sleeper cell?
THOMAS: Right now, no evidence of a broader plot involving more people here, but law enforcement officials say they cannot take that chance. The investigation is full-tilt to find out the answer to that very question.
STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, Pierre. Thanks very much. Let's get more on this now from our team of ABC analysts. Legal analyst, Dan Abrams, former FBI Special Agent Brad Garrett, and Dick Clarke, Counterterrorism Chief of two presidents, President's Bush, and Clinton. And Dan, let me begin with you, and this -- this question about the questioning of the witness. At least at first, he will not be read his Miranda rights.
ABRAMS: That's right. You heard Pierre talk about this Public Safety Exception. And basically, the Supreme Court has recognized that in some cases, if there's the possibility of a eminent threat, that you can ask limited questions without first reading someone their Miranda rights. And that's what they're saying here. Now, down the road, will someone challenge it and say, this shouldn't have happened? Sure. Courts may have to resolve the specifics in this case later, but there's no question that the U.S. Supreme Court has recognized this limited exception to reading someone their Miranda rights.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Even -- even after a suspect has been in custody for a couple of days?
ABRAMS: Well, that -- the you start getting into the questions, right? Because the Supreme Court case basically involved stopping a guy who had an empty holster, and they said, where's your gun? And he said, Oh, it's -- it's back there. And the question there is, can that little statement be admitted? The court said yes. When you're talking about two days, the questions become more difficult as to whether it's legally permissible.
But, the FBI and this administration have clearly taken the position that you are allowed to ask these types of questions, even after the fact.
STEPHANOPOULOS: We're also seeing calls from some Senators, Lindsey Graham and others, saying that instead of being tried in court, he should be treated as an enemy combatant?
ABRAMS: Yeah, it's not going to happen for two reasons, first of all, he's a U.S. citizen, captured on U.S. soil. And the reality is, he couldn't be tried in a military tribunal anyway. The question is, could he be questioned as an enemy combatant? It's possible that he could be. But there seems to be no real reason to do that since you have that Miranda exception. They can ask these types of questions. It seems that that -- that would be foolish. And you really could hurt the case there, I think, by declaring him an enemy combatant.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So, let's look at what the FBI is doing right now, with Brad Garrett. What -- what would be the nature of the questioning? What else are they doing around the suspect now?
GARRETT: Two main things, George. One is, are there other bombs, bomb components, or any sort of ordinance out there that -- that is set to go off? Or somebody else has access to it? The second prong that's the most important is, are they connected to anybody else? Is this a group? A small group, a large group? And if so, are they about to attack anybody?
STEPHANOPOULOS: And there had been a report that two young men were picked up in New Bedford. First they were questioned on Friday night, but then police went back in on Saturday, and took them away in handcuffs. But any concern about that at this point?
GARRETT: Not that I'm aware of. But -- but there will be a lot of false leads in this case. Maybe loose associations to both of them that have nothing to do with terrorism.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And -- and -- and a lot of questions as well about the fact that Tamerlan, the older brother had been questioned before by the FBI in 2011 at the request of the Russian government?
GARRETT: That's right. But think about this, George. There are hundreds of thousands of young adults in this country that visit extremist Islamic websites. He was one of them. And so the question is, what line do you draw? Do we continue investigation, or do we go and interview -- make a decision based on other intelligence that we're not going to pursue an active case against him?
STEPHANOPOULOS: You're already seeing some -- some -- Congressman Peter King criticizing the FBI, saying this was a missed opportunity, they let him slip through their fingers?
GARRETT: Well, that's great to say, but when you have literally hundreds of thousands of people you want to keep track of, you've got to prioritize. They're going to miss someone every once in awhile. And, the most important thing is, when you approach them, interview them, do their background, they may not have radicalized to the level of committing what we had on Monday.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So, simply going to the websites wouldn't be enough?
GARRETT: Absolutely not.
STEPHANOPOULOS: OK. And Dick Clarke, let me go to -- to you with this as well. We know that he did -- the older brother, go back to Russia in 2012, was there for several months. We know they're of Chechen origin. But we also know that Chechnya has had much more of a beef with Russia than the United States.
CLARKE: Well, actually George, Chechens have been involved with al-Qaeda since almost the beginning of al-Qaeda. They were involved in fighting for al-Qaeda in Bosnia. They were involved in fighting against the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, so there is a record there. But the real question here is, how do you tell when someone gets radicalized? They're normal, they're happy kids in Cambridge and then something happens, a switch is flipped.
How can the FBI, how can Homeland Security notice when that happens, or when the radicalization occurs? Especially if it's self-radicalization online? It's very, very difficult to do. What I want to know is, what did the Russians do when he went back to Russia? They had already said they were interested in him, and then he goes back to Russian and spends over six months there. What did they do? Did they follow him around? That's a question we need an answer to.
STEPHANOPOULOS: It -- it -- it does appear though we're dealing with something of a new pattern here since 9/11. Terrorist, or attempts at terrorist attacks by people who have been in the United States for quite a long period of time, but at some point, as you point out, become radicalized. We're figuring out what the trigger is, but these have not generally been -- the Times Square bomber had some connections overseas. Major Hasan had some connections to al-Awlaki, but not parts of larger, broader conspiracies.
CLARKE: Yeah, this probably will turn out that way, self-radicalization. But the issue here is, now that people have seen what two men can do with easily obtained materials, close down the city, get the president of the United States to show up. Other people around the country who have been radicalized have watched this. And they're going to wonder, is there a way now that I can do this?
ABRAMS: And -- to name him though -- coming back to the point of enemy combatant, there would have to be a specific connection to al-Qaeda, or the Taliban. You can't just say, this person was generally a threat to America, and as a result we're going to question him as an enemy combatant. Under the Rule of War, for example, you'd have to specifically be able to link him to al-Qaeda, and this is the difficulty that I think Dick is talking about.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And - and -- and to get to the point of -- it -- now, the threat may be increasing at this point. But actually over the last decade, we've actually seen a declining threat of terrorism since 2001?
CLARKE: Over the last decade, we've been remarkably lucky. And I don't understand, and I don't think anybody really understands why this hasn't happened many, many, many times over the course of the last decade? Because it's so easy for these people to do it. Now, the FBI has done a good job of pretending to be al-Qaeda. And when they see someone has been radicalized, approaching them, pretending to be al-Qaeda, getting them to do something, and then arresting them. And that works.
But that's not the only explanation. I think a lot of people believe they can't do this, it's too hard.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well let me press that for a moment, because you wrote a remarkable cover story in the Atlantic Magazine back in 2005 where you laid out what kinds of threats we could be facing in this next decade. You called it America Attacked, the Sequel. Attacks in casinos, attacks on malls, attacks on subways, other public areas. And like you say, you're scratching your head that it hasn't happened more often.
CLARKE: The only explanation that I have, aside from the FBI has infiltrated these groups, is that the potential attackers think it's too hard, which it's not. And now with this attack in Boston, it's been revealed it's not that hard.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So, then what do we do, Brad?
GARRETT: Well, I think the reason -- to follow up on what Dick has said, the reason we have not had this level of attacks that he's suggesting is because you now have law enforcement working so closely together. Because the key in a lot of these cases, may be the local, or city and county police. Because their informants live in the communities that may have lived next door to these two brothers, may have noticed something.
If they would have stepped forward, you would have had that information. I think that's what stopped a lot of attacks over the years.
But the big problem is, George, is as we talked earlier is that flip over to when they are actually radicalized instead of talking about being radicalized and doing something bad. And if you're not there, either with physical surveillance, electronic surveillance or a source, you're not going to get them.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You talk about this kind of thing -- one final question, it does appear that the young men stayed in the area, we know that Dzhokhar went to a party on his campus at University of Massachusetts I think on Wednesday night. They were basically hiding in plain sight.
GARRETT: Well, that's because I believe they weren't done. They had other bombs. I think they were going to -- because they didn't get caught -- for two days they didn't get identified -- we're going to go to the next location. And maybe they believed that ultimately at some point they were going to die, they were going to get into a shootout with the police, but they're going to do it -- they're going to set off as many bombs as they can before that occurs.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You're shaking your head.
CLARKE: Yeah, I think that's exactly right. They did have another bomb. They threw it at the Watertown police Friday night. They had other bombs, they had other explosives, they didn't think they would get caught. And they were probably planning to do something else.
STEPHANOPOULOS: OK. Gentlemen, thanks very much.
We're going to go back to Boston now. Mayor Tom Menino is standing by.
First, let's go to the Cathedral of the Holy Cross, that's where President Obama spoke earlier this week and Cardinal O'Malley is holding a memorial mass for the victims today. ABC's Byron Pitts is there. And Byron, the entire city reaching out to the victims and their families, but also bouncing back.
PITTS: George, this morning for the first time this week, we're hearing more and more people talk about healing. Part of that journey will take place here at the cathedral.
Also today, the first wake for one of the victims. 29-year-old Krystle Campbell will be laid to rest tomorrow as her family and friends continue their grieving process. Friday, Boston was on lockdown, yesterday the city came back to life.
The epicenter, if you will, was Fenway Park, this is one of America's grand old baseball stadiums and yesterday, it felt more like a cathedral. There was a pregame ceremony to honor the victims, survivors and first responders.
Also one of the highlights during the eighth inning, Neil Diamond took the field to lead the crowd in his song "Sweet Caroline"
Red Sox fans have been singing that song in the eighth inning of every home game since 2002. This week, Diamond's song became America's song.
George I've got to tell you, during that game, there were several chicken-skinned moments.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I bet there were.
PITTS: During that pre-game ceremony we could see people standing and cheering and yes, crying. As one fan told us, quote, we can finally breathe again.
STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, Byron thanks very much.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And we're joined now in "This Week" exclusive by Boston Mayor Tom Menino. Mayor, thank you so much for joining us this morning. What an extraordinary week it has been. You've been mayor for 20 years. I know you've never seen a week like this. It actually began for you in the hospital.
How are you holding up?
MENINO: George, it was a week that started with tragedy and ended up with good results. But let tell you out of this whole thing, I want to offer (ph) to the families of victims, our hearts go out to them. But the city has never come together as strong as it is today.
What came out of that was people coming together. The night we made the arrest, parties in the streets all over the city. Spontaneous events happening all over. American flags singing "God Bless America." What a great night it was after the five or six days of real fear in the city of Boston.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And what more can you tell us about the investigation right now? From what you have been able to learn from your police, FBI and other sources, do you believe that these two brothers acted alone?
MENINO: All of the information that I have they acted alone, these two individuals, the brothers. The older brother's dead now. We have the second one at Beth Israel Hospital in very serious condition. And we don't know if we'll ever be able to question the individual.
STEPHANOPOULOS: When do you expect charges to be filed? And do you expect him to face the death penalty? There is no death penalty in Massachusetts, but of course he could face federal charges.
MENINO: I hope that the U.S. attorney, Carmen Ortiz, takes him on the federal side and throws the book at him. These two individuals held this whole city hostage for five days. They should not do that -- that's what these terrorist events want to do, hold the city hostage and stop the economy of the city. Look at with what happened on Friday, the whole city was on lockdown, no businesses open, nobody was leaving their homes. There was not business being held at all.
And that's what these events are about, stopping the economy of America. And we have got to stop that. We have got to move forward. We're a much stronger city than what we want to be. We'll be even better as we move forward.
And it just frustrates me that we have these events going on in our country today. And Americans have to wake up. We got fear of terrorism. Our lives are changed forever. We have to work hard on these issues.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, let me ask you more about that lockdown. Because some have suggested that it was an overreaction to lock down the city, was actually giving the terrorists exactly what they wanted. Are you convinced it was necessary?
MENINO: At the time the decision was made, it sure was. I had information that there was other things going on during the decision that was made. And I agree with that decision at the time, because of the information we had. And at that time, we found a pipe bomb in another location in the city of Boston, another individual was taken into custody in another location. So there was many activities going on. And so to bring it to -- so we can have a clarity of this situation, we brought people together and said, okay, folks, please work with us.
Let me just tell you, Boston did a great job that day. Nobody went on the streets. Boston was on lockdown. But it was for the benefit and public safety of the individuals.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let's go back to the investigation. Take us behind the scenes if you could. I understand the turning point came on Wednesday when you became upon images of Dzokhar reacting to the bombing. Governor Patrick called these images highly incriminating, said these are things the public has not seen. What was the nature of this evidence and these images?
MENINO: Well, the FBI who turned out these images of two individuals who were walking on Boylston Street, And I believe, like the governor has, that was a turning point of the investigation, when they put these photos out and many people came forward with the information about these two individuals and went forward with that.
That helped the FBI, the Boston police, the state police, all of who were working together to come to a conclusion in this case and really find where these individuals were, and then on Friday make that arrest Friday evening.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But you didn't have a bead on where they were on Wednesday?
MENINO: No, we didn't have. There was a lot of rumors where they were. There was a lot of chasing around of the locations that people said we saw him there, we saw him there. But until the photos were put in place, I think that's when the investigation really crystallized and the people saw -- and the FBI and the Boston police and the state police were able to hone in on certain areas.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And are you convinced now they were planning more attacks?
MENINO: I'm not convinced at all that they were planning more attacks. I mean, that's (inaudible) that. But you know, we have to be vigilant. 9/11 changed our world. We have to make sure that we are vigilant every day. Public safety officials, mayors, governors, we have to look at a different world we live in today, because there's individuals out there who have no -- don't care about anybody else, don't care about maim and killing people, they just want to destroy our world, and we have to be very careful of that.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Yeah, I agree with that, Mayor, but on the -- do you believe that these two individuals were done after they set those bombs at the marathon, or do you think they were prepared to carry out more attacks themselves?
MENINO: I honestly, George, I couldn't tell you. I don't know -- I would hope not, but you never know. These people are -- you know, they had the mindset of destruction. Did they have more bombs on their possession or near their possession? There's some stories that they did. But let me just say that our public safety departments worked so well together. I mean, you'd be proud of what happened in Massachusetts this past week with the Boston police, state police and FBI working together. It was really a great thing.
You know, everybody came together. The president talked to us everyday on the phone. President came here. The governor and I worked hand in hand. It was just -- and the citizens. I have to give the citizens of Boston a lot of credit. They really were vigilant. They all came out and supported us. And now the issue is how do we move forward? How do we use that good will and that American feeling to do a better job?
We started a fund in Boston, the onefund.org, which is a fund to help some of the issues that arose during this tragedy. And it's overwhelming support. And Ken Feinberg, who you know, George, is heading up the fund for us to make sure we do it the right way in Boston.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Yeah. And America really has reached out. I want to get to that. But I've got one more question on the investigation.
What more are you learning about these brothers and the key question of when they might have been -- you know, so many accounts, you talk to so many of their classmates who said they seemed like normal American kids for so long, but at some point they turned, became radicalized. What information have you all been able to develop on that? And is it you're working theory that the younger brother was kind of brainwashed or manipulated by the older brother?
MENINO: Yes, I think the older brother was really the leader, and the younger brother was, like you said, brainwashed by his brother, and he just was a follower. He followed his brother, the brother was -- read those magazines that were published on how to create bombs, how to disrupt the general public, and things like that. And he brainwashed his younger brother into -- from there, what happened on marathon day, you know, that's so unfortunate, but, you know, out of that, I think we're coming up a stronger city than we were in the past.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And I know the marathon will run next year. Going forward, what have you learned from this incident, what kind of security measures do you think can be put in place to try to prevent something like this in the future?
MENINO: Let me just say that I think the Boston police did a lot of things to have total security out there. But when you have crowds coming back and forth, and, you know, hundreds of thousands of people out there, millions of people out of there, how do you check everybody's bag? How do you check it? So we have many cameras. One of the things that helped this investigation is the many cameras we had in the Copley Square area of the marathon. We got the information that was positive information. One of the TV stations had video of it. They were carrying it live. That helped also. It's just how we get information back to the law enforcement officials. And we have to do a thorough job of making sure that prior to the event, we check every trash can, everything else that's out there. Just -- it's simple work. It's tough work, but it needs to be done when you have thousands and thousands of people coming to your city.
But you know something? We're not going to stop having the marathon, we're not going to stop having the July 4th celebration. Because we're a city that's stronger than these terrorists want to be.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally, sir, let me bring it back to you personally. Your son, Tom Menino, a detective with the Boston police force, was on the scene near the finish line on Monday, helped out. We also saw him at that memorial service on Thursday, wheeling you up to the podium as well. He was a hero in this as well.
MENINO: Well, Tom did -- Tom, he's just-- he's my son, he did his job, and he does it every day. And there is thousands of police officers who did their job every day. And Tommy is just one of them. And there is a lot of other folks that were heroes that day. One of my cabinet officials was right on the finish line also, and as soon as the explosion happened, he ran right into the (inaudible) to help people save lives. A lot of heroes that day, just -- and we have to give them a lot of credit for saving a lot of folks' lives.
And the other thing is, every one of the individuals who was injured went to a Boston hospital that day. And none of them have lost their lives. They have done a heck of a job, the health care services we have in Boston. The hospitals have done spectacular in our city.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And, Mayor, you did a great job as well, and thank you for joining us this morning.
MENINO: Thanks, George.
STEPHANOPOULOS: The roundtable is coming up. As the terrorist threat evolves, how should America adapt? What have we learned since 9/11? What should we do today? That debate ahead.
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OBAMA: And this time next year, on the third Monday in April, the world will return to this great American city to run harder than ever and to cheer even louder for the 118th Boston Marathon. Bet on it.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: President Obama Thursday thoughts echoed by Mayor Menino. Today let's talk about more now about where we go next. On our roundtable, Senator Dan Coats, Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee, Congressman Benny Thompson, the Ranking Democrat on the House Homeland Security Committee, Chief Global Affairs Correspondence for ABC Martha Raddatz, Richard Haass Chairman of the Council, President of the Council on Foreign Relations, also author of the new book, "Foreign Policy Begins at Home." And the editor of "The New Yorker" Dave Remnick. Thanks to you all for joining us.
And Senator, let me begin with you and the Congressman, on these immediate questions on whether or not the suspect should be read his Miranda rights and treated as an enemy combatant.
COATS: I think we should stay with enemy combatant until we find out for sure whether or not there was a link to foreign terrorist organizations.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Even though he's a citizen?
COATS: Even though he's a citizen. There have been exceptions to this before with the public safety issue of course on Miranda rights. But also the fact that he's traveled back to his hometown which is a Muslim area, could have been radicalized back there.
STEPHANOPOULOS: That was his brother though.
COATS: The brother. That's correct.
COATS: But I mean we're talking about, we're talking about the two of them together as to what happened and why it happened. I think we ought to keep that option open until we find out whether or not there was a connection to a terrorist organization.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you agree?
THOMPSON: I agree. There's no question. The public safety exception is there. We should utilize it. And we should get all the information available to us.
STEPHANOPOULOS: How long does that public safety exemption hold? I mean even though a guy is lying flat on his bed in a hospital bed?
THOMPSON: Well obviously there are some communication issues right now. Because he can't talk. Obviously we can do some other things. We still, I believe, have enough evidence. I don't think we should solely rely on the Mirandizing this candidate. He is clearly one of those individuals we have where, what we need to do is collect evidence, turn it over to the U.S. Attorney, prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But you don't believe he should be treated as an enemy combatant going forward?
THOMPSON: No, no.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And then Senator --
COATS: Unless there's a link.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Right unless you find a link. But Senator, Mayor Menino also mentioned he may never be able to talk. You have some information on his wounds?
COATS: The information we have is that there was a shot to the throat, and it's questionable when and whether he'll be able to talk again. Doesn't mean he can't communicate. But right now I think he's in a condition where they can't get any information from him at all.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Nothing at all. OK, well, thank you both very much on that particular thing. But let's talk more broadly about the terrorist threat we're facing right now and how we deal with it. (inaudible) Martha Raddatz about the possibility of a connection to overseas groups or an al Qaeda connection. No evidence of that yet. But that could be the nightmare scenario.
RADDATZ: It is a nightmare scenario, and that is where they're focused now. They're focused on whether there is an overseas connection. And an overseas connection in terms of whether the older brother got any training there. I think we have to talk about these missing years in a way.
The Russians alerted the U.S. that he was radicalized, that he was involved in groups, somewhere over there, they believed. That was 2011, when the FBI investigated --
STEPHANOPOULOS: At the request of the Russians.
RADDATZ: At the request of the Russians. But then he goes back. So what happened before 2011 to alert the Russians? Was it visiting internet sites? Was it a specific group they were concerned about that he knew they were communicating with? And I think those missing years are what they're going to concentrate on, and whether that continued, whether he got trained by someone who right now is training someone else to do the same thing.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And David Remnick, you've spent a lot of time in Russia for "The Washington Post" and everybody's going to be looking at these six months. We know his parents went back and lived in Russia for some time. From the mother we've also heard that she says the FBI was on top of Tamerlan for several years.
REMNICK: Well the parents moved back to Dagestan in order to, because the father wants to die there. He's very, very sick. That's the circumstance as far as we know and we have no link between the parents and anything like jihadist interests at all. In fact they seem to be utterly shocked and in disbelief.
Now the older brother has been visiting jihadist websites, I spent Friday looking at his YouTube list and they are extremely frightening, ominous websites, pro-al Qaeda. There was one preacher that's going on and on about the evils of the magic of Harry Potter. All kinds of deluded things that he was involved in.
The Twitter feed of the younger brother hints of this kind of thing as well. So there's no question that they weren't merely religious, they were, there's no sin in being religious obviously, but interested in jihadist struggle, global jihad is now the slogan in that region, in Dagestan, Ingushetia and Chechnya.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Although a statement coming out today from one of the groups in Dagestan saying "Our enemy is not the United States, our enemy is Russia." And that has, we were talking to Richard Clark earlier, Richard Haass, about this. That area a hotbed of various Islamic cells. But the main fight for the Chechnyans and those in Dagestan has been against the Russian leadership.
HAASS: That's absolutely true. Terrorism can be global; it can also be local. And historically it was actually much more local than international. So I think the Chechnyan connection if you will, is probably secondary here. You don't have to, you don't have to travel to be influenced by what is going on in the world. The internet does it all for you.
So I think that yeah, the foreign connection's important, but probably more important is the alienation and the vulnerability of these kinds of young people who are in the United States but they're not integrated into American society.
What this reminds me of more than anything is the 2005 London bombings, where you had young Muslims of British, they were born in Britain, they grew up there their whole lives, they went to British schools. They had some foreign connections to Pakistan. But they were alienated from the society.
So we as Americans need to look very hard at what we do to make sure that this sort of thing doesn't happen. That the leaders of these communities, basically protect us from them, and them from, and stop them before they do violence.
RADDATZ: And what do they get when they radicalized? They get this sense of importance. They get this sense of mission. They fit in, themselves, in their own way. And unfortunately for all of us, it's a rather either way.
REMNICK: They play out a fantasy of fury and romantic nationalism for a place they've really never lived. I mean if in fact, its Chechnyan nationalism or some kind of fantastical global jihad that they're interested in, there's no sense that these kids are well read in this, especially the younger brother.
RADDATZ: He spent most of his time in America.
REMNICK: They're highly deluded. And so the connection between their rather idiotic interests and the evil acts that they carried out is still at this point a mystery.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me bring it back to the legislators here, on that member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator. Have you been able to develop any information that gives you any sense of when this moment of radicalization occurred?
COATS: Well that's what's being investigated right now and as thoroughly as possibly, everything is being searched, all the agencies, all the intelligence agencies are playing into this along with the FBI. Trying to find out whether there is a connection. It's a really important step that needs to be made, if there is a connection, whether there is or there isn't.
I think what's happened here is that the signal has been sent to those that want to harm Americans. It is that we will do everything we can to prevent this from happening. And if you take on America, American's going to take you on.
It's not just the Intelligence Agencies, it's just not the law enforcement, and I commend the coordination that pulled this thing together. But it's Americans. The runners in the race, ran to help the victims. Boston response was extraordinary, like New York post 9/11. The signal is, don't mess with us, we will chase you to the ends of the earth if we have to. So we're trying to go to the ends of the earth to make sure that this --
STEPHANOPOULOS: The problem here might have been though, that they were just in the neighborhood.
THOMPSON: I think one of the problems George is that, how do you deal with people who are already in this country? How do you deal with their radicalization? Is it on internet? Is it their association with other friends? And that is something we are having to deal with every day.
We've dealt with international terrorists who are trying to get here. But what about the people who are already here? We can't spend enough money to defend ourselves against that. We'll go broke as a nation. So that continues to be a day in, day out --
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well one of the questions that's come up is perhaps that more cities should do what New York does and invest a lot more in counterterrorism on the ground. But then that can also get you very quickly into questions of civil liberties if you start just keeping an eye on neighborhoods or mosques, specific neighborhoods or mosques.
THOMPSON: Well you're absolutely right, but New York is one of the main beneficiaries of federal dollars. If it were not for the federal dollars, it would be very difficult for New York to be as robust as they are.
REMNICK: We can't lock up every young man who goes on a fantastical or nasty or awful website. I mean that becomes a big difficulty. In fact we knew about this guy --
STEPHANOPOULOS: The FBI talked to him in 2011.
REMNICK: 2011 interviews with him. And the parents readily admitted this in their interviews in Dagestan. So what do we do then? The Russians alerted us to this.
RADDATZ: He wasn't tracked to Russia. I assume that in 2012 no one was tracking him when he returned and if he visited Chechnya, what he was doing there. It doesn't sound like anyone was tracking him there. And if you had that red flag raised, I think you do have to question, why wasn't he followed up?
HAASS: What this tells you is you need a long-term strategy for terrorism. What happened the other day in Boston unfortunately is not the exception. This is not a one off. This is a glimpse of the future. This is granular terrorism that 1, 2, 3 people can carry out. We live in a world where power is diffused. Where individuals are in turn empowered. So you don't need to do something on the scale of 9/11. That turns out to be much less difficult for us to find out about. Because there's so many people involved and there's so much --
REMNICK: --was an extremely crude operation. I mean this bomb was so crude, thank God, that even people standing right next to the little boy who died, were relatively unscathed. So if he were in fact trained in Dagestan or Chechnya as the supposition is now, and it's entirely supposition, it wasn't high level.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But they did have other weaponry, we found out later, and some other bombs were discovered as well. But to get to the point that Richard Haass was just talking about Senator, what do you do though if no connection to a specific group is found? Instead we just find that these young men were inspired by al Qaeda, but not directed. That's almost impossible to find.
COATS: Well it is. And that's the reality of the world we're now living in. Because we not only face terrorism from abroad, that is, planned and coordinated. We face these lone wolves or these others or whoever gathers together that has a vengeance or a demented mind or who has been kind of radicalized through over the internet or through a mosque or whatever. We're going to continue to have to understand that is a threat to America also.
That's why we all need to be engaged in not only looking out for this type of thing, but helping identify and see, whether these loaners, is there a kid in the classroom that's just --
RADDATZ: He wasn't a loner. He wasn't a loner.
COATS: We're not going to stop every one of these, that's for sure.
THOMPSON: The notion is, unless you get the public by you, the public absolutely has to understand that to address this nexus to terrorism, they will have to participate. If they see something out of the ordinary, they're going to absolutely have to report it. If they don't report it, then potentially, we would miss an opportunity to identify something.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You know, that gets to a bigger question that was raised this week as well. I think one of the things we saw in the wake of the bombings on Monday is a lot of people saw things. A lot of people said things. On the internet a lot of false information was being put out.
We saw both the benefit to this crowdsourcing where everybody could come down on top of some suspects. But also the perils of it as well. Look at the front page of the "New York Post." These two young men who had nothing to do at all with the terrorism. Nightline actually spoke to one of them, Salah Barhoun, after the fact.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SALAH BARHOUN: They're going to be like oh you just did this. How could you do this? Why would you even do that? You've got so many people, you killed, 8 years old kid. If you look at it, it wasn't me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANOPOULOS: He had nothing to do with it, and David Remnick it does --
REMNICK: Outrageous. It's outrageous behavior. Look I have some sympathy for what happened to CNN. They're on all day long --
STEPHANOPOULOS: The arrest?
REMNICK: And they got legitimate, what they thought were legitimate sources telling them that there was an arrest. They turned out to be wrong, they corrected their mistake. I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.
This is something more pernicious. This is slapping on the front page of the newspaper with a wide circulation of something not confirmed at all, and it harms people's lives and I give that guy a lot of credit to go on television and talk to you. That takes courage.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Rupert Murdoch responded in a tweet, he said that all the "New York Post" pictures were those distributed by the FBI and instantly withdrawn when the FBI changed directions.
REMNICK: That's a lousy excuse. Sorry, that's a lousy excuse. It appeared on the front page of his newspaper, it was there for all to see. And it hurts that kid.
STEPHANOPOULOS : Take responsibility and apologize.
REMNICK: You bet.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But how do we deal with this going forward? Because we're going to see this again and again and again. It's so easy to get that bad information out there so quickly.
HAASS: There's lots of things we've got to deal with. We actually need what the military would do, an After Action Report. We got to look at the question of lockdowns. Did Boston react properly? Did the, how did the law enforcement cooperation go? I think journalists, media, people on the internet, need to look at what they did. Do normal standards apply? How do you remain competitive and at the same time remain responsible? With cameras everywhere, how do we cover things at the same time protect privacy.
We're actually, again, this is the future, it's now coming to the present. And what we're going to have to do is think through as a society, how are we going to keep ourselves safe, at the same time protecting civil liberties and not tying ourselves in knots. There's always balances, there's always tradeoffs. That's the conversation we need to have.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Martha you know I felt some blowback on Friday. We, of course, were on the air from about 4 a.m. through 3 p.m., and then again all night long. And a lot of people saying to me personally, why do you guys --
RADDATZ: Just keep talking?
STEPHANOPOULOS: Just keep talking. Why do you give them that kind of attention?
RADDATZ: Well I think in a situation like that, first of all you had an entire city locked down.
RADDATZ: You had to. You had this horrific event. And frankly everybody was glued to the television. Everybody wanted to know what was happening. We have to be careful, we all have to be careful.
I take the lesson of a former intelligence officer who said, when I was a young man my dad took me deer hunting. And we were laying there and looked out and my dad turned to me and he said, son, when you go deer hunting, everything starts looking like a deer.
So we have to be careful. We have to make sure that we don't have a confirmation bias. That we want something to happen. CNN made a mistake. Law enforcement made a mistake. You remember when it first happened they said there was an explosion at the JFK Library.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And I think a lot of people were trying to be careful of this when we first saw the date that it happened, on Patriots Day, some speculation oh this was domestic terrorism. Domestically-inspired.
HAASS: When I used to work for Colin Powell, he once said, first reports, he learned in the Army, are never complete and never accurate. Not a bad thing to remember.
COATS: You don't want us to legislate this area. We'll leave it the media and the journalists to figure out what they should do and what's proper and improper.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But how about the question of locking down the city of Boston, Congressman? You saw the mayor right there say, it was absolutely justified.
THOMPSON: Well, if you study what terrorists want to do, one of the things other than the physical harm is the economic harm. That one day's loss of income for that area is in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
So in some instance, the terrorist win there. And what we have to do is come up with the After Action Report and say what do we need to do? And I think clearly once we do that, there might be some alternatives, but I won't second guess the governor or the mayor in what they did.
RADDATZ: And if there were more terrorists attacks --
THOMPSON: And we say you did the right thing. But one of the goals of terrorists is economic terrorism. And if you look at it from that perspective, they succeeded.
REMNICK: I take the mayor at his word that there were reports and possibilities of another bombing, these guys were still at large. But there is this question whether an entire city should be shut down because, in fact, that's what terrorists want.
REMNICK: But also an entire city is frozen with fear and anxiety. And this is a, it's horrible to say, but this is a great success for terrorists.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And that's why this after-action report, Richard, is so important. Because we have seen in other instances, New York after the Time Square bombing did not lock down. We saw that renegade former cop in L.A., terrorizing people, the D.C. snipers many years ago. In all those cases, the cities did not lock down.
HAASS: Everyone here is right. Disruption is one of the goals of terrorists. They succeeded temporarily in this case. Obviously though you've got to keep people safe. How you get that balanced right, that's why it's so important to figure this out for the long-term.
Because again, this is coming back. What's scary about this is how relatively easy it is and if these guys can go on the internet, use primitive devices to do something like this. They're not the only ones who are going to do it. The attention they garnered is going to encourage copycat incidents.
Terrorism is never going to be eradicated, it's like disease. And what we have to think about is, yeah we go after it. But how do we make ourselves more resilient? How do we protect ourselves? How do we get better at bouncing back?
STEPHANOPOULOS: Not going to be eradicated Martha Raddatz but it does come at a time when the al Qaeda leadership top to bottom has been pretty well decimated.
RADDATZ: It's been decimated which I think is frightening in a way because of exactly what happened. Because you have these fragmented groups, these splinter groups, and really we can't prevent attacks on soft targets. We just can't. I think we all probably found ourselves this week looking around and thinking --
RADDATZ: Not 100 percent. And again I think people talking about, let's get to the root of this. What happens to these young men? Is there anything we can do there? I don't know the answer to that. I just know you can't 100 percent prevent these attacks.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator you were talking about the effect on legislation, we certainly can't legislate a lot of these issues. But one of the suggestions we've seen from one of your colleagues, Senator Charles Grassley, of Iowa, is that we should put the Immigration Reform effort on hold until we know a lot more.
COATS: I agree with Senator Grassley.
COATS: You usually end up with bad policy if you do it in an emotional way or an emotional reaction. We saw some things post-9/11 that were enacted that if we had had a little bit more rational time to think this through, perhaps we wouldn't have had some of the pushback on it.
But more importantly, immigration is an issue that has dramatic economic effect on Americans. It has national security implications. I think stepping back just a little bit and putting it on hold, for instance, we have a bigger issue than immigration in front of us. And that's our debt deficit and it's got to get solved.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You're saying --
COATS: We have a broken system, it needs to be reformed. But I'm afraid we'll rush to some judgments relative to immigration and how it's processed. So let's do it in a rational way rather than an emotional way.
REMNICK: George, with respect, I think that's as bad an idea as calling this an enemy combatant. We have a 100 percent success rate of prosecuting terrorists in the United States. 100 percent. And I think that's a bad idea on the part of Senator McCain in the lead.
I think the idea of delaying immigration reform, if you ask anybody involved with immigration, including the immigrants themselves, this is a horrible idea. To take this isolated, horrible, violent, evil incident and make it stand for larger politics and put immigration reform, put the brakes on it.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Where do you stand on that Congressman?
THOMPSON: Well it is not the right thing to do. We're a nation of immigrants. I trust our government. We vet people up and down. We review policies every day. But to put it on hold is not in the best interest of this country.
HAASS: I agree with the Congressman, one of the things the Immigration Reform Bill will deal is the 11 or 12 million people who are in this country but are still living in the shadows. One of the lessons of this incident, we need to integrate all Americans into this society. We want to mainstream. Rather than delaying the bill, I actually think we should move it even faster.
This is the time, we thought about this for years. Economically but also in terms of our national security, this bill will help make America safer because more Americans will come into the mainstream, will no longer be forced to live in some twilight, shadowed area. That's one of the lessons we ought to take from this. Alienated, young people, not part of the mainstream fully, dangerous thing.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Last word.
COATS: Well I'm the last person, I'm on the opposite side of all this, but I'm simply saying just push it back a month or two, let the emotions settle down. Let us do it in a rational way and make good judgments not based on the urgency of the moment. Congress has a way of just rushing to judgments without thinking it through carefully.
We're talking months here or a few weeks, not years. It needs to be done.
STEPHANOPOULOS: That is all we have time for today. Thank you all for a very thoughtful discussion.
Coming up, author Dennis Lehane on the spirit of his hometown in our Sunday Spotlight.
STEPHANOPOULOS: This week the Pentagon released the names of two soldiers killed in Afghanistan.
And we'll be back with a tribute to Boston from its bestselling author, Dennis Lehane.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally today our Sunday Spotlight shining on the City of Boston, the city galvanized, under siege. It's spirit captured by a native son. The bestselling author or "Mystic River" and "Gone Baby Gone" Dennis Lehane.
LEHANE: I've been proud to be from Boston my whole life. I don't think I've ever been as proud as I have been this week. The thing that will stick with me the rest of my life is the plot of these brothers failed within two seconds of the first explosion. Because the objective of terror is to rattle a populace. It's to make them paralyzed with fear. And to see all these civilians run toward the blast to help their fellow civilians, to help their fellow Bostonians, their fellow members of the human race, was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. It was one of the great acts of heroism I've ever witnessed.
The other thing that was really striking to me was to walk through the streets, did you see how many people hugging? I saw a lot of that. We're a city that values civil discourse, civil liberties. And then at the same time we have this kind of pugnacious pride, this romantic underdog, if you're going to hit me you better hit me very, very hard or I won't go down, kind of vibe. I mean we were Red Sox fans for a century. So that, in and of itself, is a tough and hardy people.
There's actually a joke going around right now on the internet and through text and somebody sent it around. Boston is such a tough city that if you mess with it, they will shut the entire city down until they find you. Nobody's going to escape. We're going to catch you and then we're going to throw you in jail and throw away the key and move on with our lives and not give you another thought.
I got a couple different texts from friends that were the same text essentially, they messed with the wrong city. I think the citizens of the city were saying, we're not going to change. This is going to change nothing. Whatever you thought, whatever your objective was, whatever you thought you were going to do to our spirit, it's not going to change.
If you go to the Marathon next year, I bet there will be twice as many people there. I think it's going to be euphoric. I think it's going to be, we took a punch and we got right back up again.
When it came back, we got him. I think you could see the euphoria, you could see the relief. You could see a sense of vindication, of justice prevailing. Of our values trumping very corrupt values. I think you could feel that. It felt, it felt wonderful.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Good for Boston. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out David Muir tonight and I'll see you tomorrow on GMA.