Jordan's King Abdullah Open to Constitutional Monarchy

JENNINGS: Can I put it to you quite bluntly, sir: Do you condone the torture of prisoners in the Jordanian penal system?

ABDULLAH: Not at all, and there has been some cases reported where there has been abuse between prisoners and between police prison guards. And I have a new police chief at the moment that is looking into that. We have problems where we've got, as many countries do, overcrowding in jails. We're trying to build new infrastructure. And I gather from the chief of police that he has actually cleaned out a lot of people that he felt are corrupt and not up to the standard. And if we are going to be part of the international community, certain standards need to be set, and especially in jails.

JENNINGS: Why do you think the United States is sending, quote, suspected terrorists, unquote, to Jordan?

ABDULLAH: I'm not fully aware of that process. I know this has been reported in the press. And I don't have enough information to be able to answer that. (Overlap)

JENNINGS: It's a very big issue in the United States, as I'm sure you know, because Americans believe that prisoners are being sent, or rendered, as it's called, to countries where torture is permissible ...

ABDULLAH: Right.

JENNINGS: ... or acceptable, rather than here.

ABDULLAH: Right. Well, again, I'll have to talk to my people about that, but I think that we have standards that we want to keep as part of the international community, and if there are any wrongdoings done in Jordan, then, you know, we need to make sure that those issues are addressed.

JENNINGS: Can you imagine yourself saying no to the United States, if the United States wanted to send a suspected terrorist to the Jordanian system?

ABDULLAH: (Deep breath) Well, I'd , I would have -- I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but I know we have a very good relationship between the Jordanian and American government. I wish I had more information to be able to give you on that particular issue.

JENNINGS: As Americans look at these changes in the Middle East, now they look at Jordan without question, including the restrictive political parties law. Why does that not change, and why could that not change immediately?

ABDULLAH: Well, we're actually in the process of changing those issues. At the moment, working with the government, for example, on media. We have created, in the civil courts, a special judge, actually a lady judge, who's in charge of media issues, and from that point onwards, no journalist can be taken to prison. They can be voted by the Judge Advocate if there is an issue of negligence or misjudgment from a member of the media. And then everything is taken to the civil courts, so there's a process of laws that we're in the process of implementing at the moment to create the right freedoms of the press and of political parties.

JENNINGS: The international organizations who monitor Jordan say that the local media's not allowed to criticize you.

ABDULLAH: Well, with the new system in place, if one does criticize me, and if there's an issue where there is negligence or wrongdoings from the reporter or the media personality, there is nothing that the government can do except for maybe sending them to a civil court, if the person is held liable.

JENNINGS: How long do you think it should be, in your own mind, before people look to Jordan as an absolute model of democratic procedure in the Middle East?

ABDULLAH: Well, again, in our discussions with Western organizations on the issue of decentralization, it could be anywhere as close to one year to five. We have to build a culture of democracy, that's part of the problem, so that people inside Jordan understand their rights, and also we need a lot of technical support. I've been talking to many countries that looked at the federal system or created governors. How do you improve the political system, but at the same time increase transparency, cut down corruption, and have it not affect what we've been doing on the social economic reform program? It's a very complicated issue. And if we're going to have political reform, we've really got to get it right the first time around. And actually my trip to Europe two weeks ago was to reach out to European countries and today to the United States, to really give us any technical advice and support on how to be able to get this political reform done in the right way, the right time, the first time around.

JENNINGS: Are you aware, sir, that it sounds a little defensive to an American audience?

ABDULLAH: In what respect?

JENNINGS: We must create democracy gradually. We can't just spring democracy ... (Overlap)

ABDULLAH: No, no, we can. We can spring ... (Overlap)

JENNINGS: ... for themselves immediately. We have to have decentralization in order for people to express their opinions politically.

ABDULLAH: Well, I'm honestly trying to do it from the bottom of my heart in the right way. And if you're going to do decentralization, and get a system of government that people can take control of their lives, we do need to be able to reach out to people who've gone through the exercise themselves. Whether we're talking about unions, problems we're having with the production unions at the moment, is something that I gathered you've gone through in the United States. So we're now tackling this issue. What are the experiences that America has gone through? Help us do it. So in other words, if we're reaching out to Europe and to United States, it's to cut the time down. And I don't want a process where we can sit back in our chairs and say, well, the political reform process in Jordan is going to take some time. Help us speed up the process.

JENNINGS: Well, how difficult is it to change a society? Let me put it slightly different to you. How difficult it is to change a society in which the police apparatus, secret police apparatus in many cases, is so pervasive?

ABDULLAH: Well, that is one of the elements that we've been discussing in the national agenda, as well as with the Decentralization Committee is that it's not just enough for the government and civil society to be able to deal with this issue. Police and security apparatuses have also got to be modernized. And again, in these issues, from the practical experience that I've had over the past two years, the leadership is fairly easy to convince. It's having to work down the second, third and fourth level to get the message and to change the way that they're doing business. That's the challenge that we're facing at the moment.

JENNINGS: Let me come back to regional affairs. President Bush would very much like you to help the Palestinian president disarm those people in the Palestinian territories who are not interested in the peace agreement with Israel.

ABDULLAH: Right.

JENNINGS: What can you do for him?

ABDULLAH: Well, we've been working, not just recently but even before the Intifada, with the Israelis and Palestinians to support strengthening Palestinian security services, so that they can bring their society in order and government institutions that are reflective of what we're used to. We did offer the Bardr Brigade to the Palestinians as a well-trained police force to go in there. It seems that the Israelis do not want to do that. That's fine. At the end of the day, we're just trying to think out of the box how to help. But we are instrumental in providing assistance and training, and whatever the Palestinians and Israelis agree to. And it's not just now, it's something that's been going on for many years.

JENNINGS: Do you think that the Israeli government is interested, genuinely interested in getting out of Gaza? Genuinely interested in getting out of the West Bank?

ABDULLAH: I believe from our reports, our discussions with the Israelis that is the case. Our foreign minister just came back from Israel last week and felt the same thing. We want to make sure that obviously the disengagements, whether it's from Gaza and the West Bank are part and parcel of a vehicle that we all understand, which is the road map. That's a vehicle that's been articulated in the international community and the one that we have at the moment to get us to the end game. And I hope that these pulls-outs are part and parcel of that.

JENNINGS: Do you think Hezbollah in Lebanon is a terrorist organization?

ABDULLAH: The way we see it, they're an organization that have moved into politics. And we hope that they will continue to move in that direction. And again, they're an important part of Lebanese society, and they can't be ruled out on that basis.

JENNINGS: Did you explain that to President Bush?

ABDULLAH: President Bush understands that they are moving into politics. I think he just heard the statement today, while I was sitting next to him, and he encouraged, I believe, Hezbollah to look at politics as the way to go forward.

JENNINGS: The president's much-trusted adviser, Karen Hughes, is about to take this new position, improving the American image in the rest of the world. What would you counsel her about the Middle East?

ABDULLAH: I think the problem that America has faced with image in the recent years is obviously a perception in the Middle East that Israel is the only country that holds sway in the United States, so that there is a sort of a biased outlook towards the Middle East. As a result, people feel that the Palestinians have been short-changed. Unfortunately, I think initially what happened in Iraq, the visual images that we get in media, where you have sort of Israeli troops occupying Palestinians, American troops occupying Iraq have added to that problem. But I believe that if we see movement on the Israeli-Palestinian issue, and that of Iraq, then the views are going to change, and we said the optimism of all these reforms, these elections, I hope that at the end of the day, whatever part America has played in it will get the credit for making the Middle East a better place.

JENNINGS: Last December, you, in reference to what was happening in Iraq, referred to the Shiite crescent that was developing from Iraq around the Gulf, which was widely taken as a concern by you, that you were threatened by Shiite power.

ABDULLAH: We're not at all threatened by Shiite power. As you know, as being the descendant of the Prophet Muhammad, we have actually a very special relationship with the Shia. And it was turned from what I made as a political message into a religious context. We have a very close affinity to Shia all over the world, especially the Shia in Iraq, and we were concerned that there were elements inside of Iran at that particular point of time that had strategical (sic) objectives in Iraq, which would not be conducive to the harmony between Sunnis and Shia.

JENNINGS: Do you therefore believe that Shiite power in Iraq is largely benign?

ABDULLAH: I do believe so. I think the overwhelming majority of Shia in Iraq want Iraq for themselves. They are obviously an essential building block to the future of Iraq, and again, as the Shias and Muslims and Kurds come together that want Iraq for Iraq, I think that is the best change the country has to become part of the international community as quickly as possible.

JENNINGS: Thank you very much.