'This Week' Transcript 4-20-25: Sen. Chris Van Hollen, Trump Administration border czar Tom Homan & House Minority Leader Rep. Hakeem Jeffries

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, April 20, 2025 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

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ANNOUNCER: "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" starts right now.

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JONATHAN KARL, ABC CO-ANCHOR OF "THIS WEEK" AND CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Deportation standoff.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There was no situation ever where he was going to stay in this country, none.

KARL (voice-over): The showdown over the deportation of Kilmar Abrego Garcia sent to a notorious prison in El Salvador.

SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): We need to bring Mr. Abrego Garcia home to protect his constitutional rights to due process.

KARL (voice-over): Senator Chris Van Hollen treks to El Salvador to an alleged gang member. Maryland Senator joins me live to respond, as the White House digs in.

KARL: You could arrange for his extradition back to the United States.

TOM HOMAN, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BORDER CZAR: Let's say he actually got back. People need to understand he will be detained and he will be deported.

KARL (voice-over): Our Sunday exclusive with Trump's Border Czar Tom Homan. Fighting back, three months into President Trump's second term, signs the Democratic resistance is ramping up.

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ, (D-NY): It will always be the people who are the last and strongest defense of our country and our freedoms.

KARL (voice-over): What's ahead for the party? We'll ask the Democratic leader in the House, Hakeem Jeffries. And Harvard defies Trump.

LARRY SUMMERS, FORMER PRESIDENT, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: If an institution like Harvard cannot resist tyranny when applied to it, then who can?

KARL (voice-over): The Ivy League University refuses Trump's latest demands, putting billions in federal funding on the line. Was it all started by a mistake? Roundtable on all the week's politics.

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ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it's "This Week" here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning and Happy Easter. Welcome to "This Week." Today's day 90 of the second Trump presidency, and there are growing signs of resistance to the Trump agenda. This weekend, we've seen nationwide protests of thousands gathered in red states and blue, rallying to oppose President Trump. This is the ongoing Fighting Oligarchy tour headlined by Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, draws larger and larger crowds. Organizers say more than 200,000 in recent weeks, including big rallies near the heart of Trump country -- Missoula, Montana, and Nampa, Idaho.

And Harvard University fought back this week against President Trump's attempts to force big changes on the nation's colleges and universities, issuing a statement saying it wouldn't go along with the Trump administration's demands, despite a threat to withhold billions of dollars in federal grants because "No government, regardless of which party is in power, should dictate what private universities can teach, whom they can admit and hire, and which areas of study and inquiry they can pursue."

The most significant resistance though is coming from the courts. Judges in several cases challenging the administration on deportations, on press freedom, on the dismantling of federal agencies, and their reluctance to follow court orders. One judge this week said there was probable cause to hold the Trump administration in criminal contempt for not taking active steps to follow an order to stop the deportation of Venezuelan migrants to the notorious CECOT Prison in El Salvador.

And on Saturday, the Supreme Court temporarily blocked deportations under the Alien Enemies Act of 1798 after an emergency appeal from the ACLU. Earlier this week, a Reagan-appointed judge rebuked the Trump administration for defying a court order to facilitate the return of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who the administration acknowledged was deported to El Salvador due to a clerical error.

The conservative Judge Harvie Wilkinson wrote, "It is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter, but in this case, it is not hard at all. The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process. It is the foundation of our constitutional order. This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear."

The renewed pushback shows no sign, however, of restraining the White House. After Harvard's defiance, President Trump made a new threat suggesting he would revoke the university's tax-exempt status, a move that would likely be illegal, and the Department of Homeland Security threatened to revoke visas for the thousands of international students who attend Harvard.

President Trump, who met with El Salvador's president this week, made it clear he does not intend to seek the return of Abrego Garcia to the United States.

Deportation without due process is at the center of the Abrego Garcia case. The administration claims he is an MS-13 gang member, something his family and his attorneys deny.

Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen flew to El Salvador himself to try to get a meeting with the man whose family, including his wife, an American citizen, is still in Maryland pushing for his return. At first authorities refused, but late Thursday, Senator Van Hollen was able to sit down with Abrego Garcia, who was not in his jail garb and not in the hellish CECOT prison but instead in plain clothes at a nearby hotel.

While President Trump accused Van Hollen of defending a violent gang member, the senator says the issue goes far beyond the case of Abrego Garcia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): If you deny the constitutional rights of one man, you threaten the constitutional rights and due process for everyone else in America.

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KARL: And Senator Van Hollen joins me now.

So, you had this extraordinary trip to El Salvador. When you got there, you demanded or you asked to see Abrego Garcia, you were flatly denied. And then suddenly, they brought him to see you.

Explain, what happened?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, you're right. I was denied by the vice president. I then the next day tried to drive to CECOT prison, which is this notorious prison.

KARL: Yes.

VAN HOLLEN: Soldiers waved me to the side of the road about three kilometers out. I said, what are you doing? They said they had gotten given orders not to allow me to proceed.

KARL: Not even to get within miles of CECOT.

VAN HOLLEN: Yes, three kilometers. I asked them if they knew anything about the health of Abrego Garcia, they said they know nothing about it.

We had a number of press conferences in El Salvador pointing out that they were complicit in this illegal scheme with the Trump administration and pointing out that it's illegal under international law to prevent any communication with a prisoner.

KARL: His family hadn't heard from -- nobody had any contact for weeks.

VAN HOLLEN: That's right. This is a guy who was just abducted off the streets of Maryland, put in a couple airplanes, didn't know he was going to El Salvador, and ends up in the most notorious prison.

KARL: How did you end up meeting with him then? What happened?

VAN HOLLEN: I think at some point, the president of El Salvador realized it was looking really bad to have this person who had been absconded from America, from the streets of Maryland, in one of their prisons and not able to communicate. So I ended up getting a call saying, we will bring him to your hotel and that's how we met.

KARL: So did you walk into a trap, though? I mean, he -- they bring him to your hotel, he's in the civilian clothes. And you met with him. We saw the images that the -- you put out the picture of meeting with him, you know, the beginning of the meeting. You're sitting there. You're drinking water and talking to the guy in the hotel lobby, I assume. And then at some point, they bring in these like, you know, glasses that look like margarita glasses?

VAN HOLLEN: No, it was -- it wasn't a trap. My goal was -- my goal was to meet with him.

KARL: Yes.

VAN HOLLEN: And make sure I could tell his wife and family he was OK. That was my goal. And I achieved that goal.

You're absolutely right that the Salvadoran authorities tried to deceive people. They tried to make it look like he was in paradise. They actually wanted to have the meeting by the hotel pool originally.

KARL: Really?

VAN HOLLEN: Absolutely, absolutely. We had to negotiate that. They wanted to put me right overlooking the pool. In fact, if you had a different angle on the camera shot, you would see the pool. And then --

KARL: Because they did write -- Bukele put out a statement saying, miraculously risen from the death camps and torture and sipping margaritas with you. I mean, they were really trying to make you look like you were hanging out with somebody that they say is a gang member.

VAN HOLLEN: Look, this is a person who the United States courts have determined was illegally taken from the United States, and my whole purpose here is to make sure that we observe the rule of law, the Constitution, and due process rights. Bukele, yes, he tried to make it look like somehow this was -- Abrego Garcia was enjoying himself. All of that was a setup, right? He had the waiters there. People ordered the waiters to bring these things that look like margaritas.

KARL: Yes.

VAN HOLLEN: It just goes to show the lengths that Bukele and Trump will go to try to deceive people about what this case is all about. What this case is all about is simply complying with the Supreme Court order to facilitate his return and make sure he gets due process.

KARL: So what did Abrego Garcia tell you?

VAN HOLLEN: He told me about the trauma he had been experiencing, both in terms of the abduction and the fact that he was originally sent to CECOT, which is this notorious prison.

KARL: Yeah.

VAN HOLLEN: He told me how much he missed his wife and his kids. He specifically mentioned his 5-year-old boy who has autism because his -- that boy had been in the car with him when U.S. agents had stopped them and handcuffed him and then taken him away.

So, he described all that and he told me that he had moved recently to a new prison facility.

So those are some of the highlights.

KARL: I want -- I want you to listen to something that Gavin Newsom had to say about all the attention this case has gotten.

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GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D), CALIFORNIA: This is the distraction of the day, the art of distraction. This is the debate they want. This is their 80/20 issue as they've described it.

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KARL: Is -- is he right about the politics of this? I mean, the Republicans have taken great joy in portraying you as somebody who is defending somebody who's in this country illegally, they say as a gang member, and, you know, and -- and they're saying that they're trying to just enforce the laws.

VAN HOLLEN: Jon, I don't think it's ever wrong to protect the Constitution and protect due process rights. I think conservative and libertarians when they think about this case, the idea of somebody being deprived of their liberty and actually in a foreign prison without due process of law, that's something we should all fight for.

I think what Americans are tired of is people who want to put their finger to the wind to see what's going on. And I would say that anyone that's not prepared to defend the constitutional rights of one man when they threaten the constitutional rights of all doesn't deserve to lead.

KARL: As you know, the president himself has been attacking you by pointing out some of the aspects of Abrego Garcia's record, including the fact that his wife had an order of protection against him in 2021, and -- and alleged some pretty serious allegations of abuse, and even that that he had -- he had detained her.

Are you concerned about your defense of somebody -- obviously, everybody in this country -- even those undocumented immigrants have rights. But are you concerned about standing so forcefully with somebody that has, you know, at least a questionable record?

VAN HOLLEN: I am not defending the man. I'm defending the rights of this man to due process, and the Trump administration has admitted in court that he was wrongfully detained and wrongfully deported.

My mission and my purpose is to make sure that we uphold the rule of law because if we take it away for -- from him, we do jeopardize it for everybody else.

And I do want to point out, Karl, yes, the Trump administration is trying to change the story. They're trying to distract attention. Here's where they should put their facts: they should put it before the court.

They should put up or shut up in court, because Judge Xinis, who's the district court judge in this case, said and I quote, they put no evidence linking Abrego Garcia to MS-13 or to any other terrorist activity, unquote. She says that a couple times in her decision.

So, Mr. President and Republicans and anybody involved with this, take your facts to court. Don't put everything out on social media.

As to his wife, his wife is the one who is asking us all to bring him home, so his rights can be respected.

KARL: And, in fact, even if he is a gang member, that doesn't mean you don't have rights, due process rights.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, exactly, but again, the place to litigate that is in the courts and they've not put the evidence before the judge in the case. So, again, put up or shut up in court.

KARL: Let me ask, you also, we -- we heard from Tom Homan which we'll be playing shortly, he was very critical of you not surprisingly and said, you know, that he was -- he was alarmed that you would go to El Salvador to meet with an alleged gang member. He didn't say alleged -- but a gang member, and when you have not taken a single visit to the border over the past four years or shown concerns about what was happening at the border.

VAN HOLLEN: So I read that --

KARL: Your response?

VAN HOLLEN: -- I read that transcript.

KARL: Yeah.

VAN HOLLEN: I don't have time to go through it all. He is lying through his teeth on many places in that -- in that record.

And I have been actually fighting MS-13, probably longer than Donald Trump ever uttered the name MS-13. For 20 years in this region, I helped stand up the anti -- you know, gang -- anti-gang task force.

But the idea that you can't defend people's rights under the Constitution and fight MS-13 and gang violence is a very dangerous idea. That's the idea the president wants to put out. That's why they're spreading all these lies.

Take your -- take your information to the court because you clearly have not done that, and respect this person's constitutional rights and follow the order of the Supreme Court, which they're defying as we speak.

KARL: All right. Senator Van Hollen, thank you for joining us.

VAN HOLLEN: Thank you, Jon.

KARL: Coming up, I'll ask White House Border Czar Tom Homan if he agrees with late Justice Antonin Scalia that constitutional rights apply to every person in the United States, regardless of their alleged crime or legal status. We're back in two minutes.

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KARL: Just hours before the Supreme Court stopped the administration from deporting a group of Venezuelans using the centuries-old Alien Enemies Act, the president's border czar was fiercely defending the law's use. I spoke with Tom Homan Friday, began by asking him about Senator Van Hollen's meeting with Kilmar Abrego Garcia.

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KARL: Senator Van Hollen has obviously got a chance to meet with him. But he had to travel to El Salvador to get any information. Is that a concern to you at all? I mean, these are people sent by the United, I mean, in his case, sent by the United States and not even a U.S. Senator could get any information about his whereabouts or the condition of his incarceration without actually going down and making the trip to El Salvador himself.

TOM HOMAN, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BORDER CZAR: Well, he obviously knew his whereabouts because he went there to see him. But you know what's -- what bothers me more than that is a U.S. Senator traveled El Salvador on taxpayer dime to meet with a MS-13 gang member, public safety threat terrorist. I mean, in the meantime, the day before he traveled, an illegal alien was arrested for murder was released in the streets rather than honoring an ICE detainer in his very own state.

What concerns me is Van Hollen never went to the border last four years under Joe Biden, when he had a 600 percent increase in sex trafficking women and children. You have a record number of non-suspected terrorists cross that border. You had a quarter million Americans die from fentanyl overdose because of open border. You had over 4,000 illegal aliens died making that journey, which is an historic record.

What shocks me is he has remained silent on the travesty that happened in our southern border. Many people died, thousands of people died. I met with hundreds of angel moms and dads who buried their children that were murdered by illegal alien. How many angel moms and dads has he met in the state of Maryland? That's what concerns me.

KARL: He says that he has done this because it's -- the issue here is due process, that -- and it's following a court order, that the Supreme Court has said that the administration needs to facilitate his return so he could get through, have his chance at due process.

HOMAN: I understand that 'facilitate,' but he's also in the custody -- he's a citizen and a national of the country of El Salvador. So El Salvador would certainly have to cooperate in that. But again, I'm out of the loop on that. I'm not an attorney. I'm not litigating this case. We'll do whatever the, you know, the law says we have to do. And what I think -- I stand by the fact I think we did the right thing here.

We removed a public safety threat, a national security threat, a violent gang member from the United States. ICE intelligence says he's an MS-13 gang member. Confidential information says he's an MS-13 gang member. The country of El Salvador says he's an MS-13 gang member. I think he's exactly where he should be.

KARL: But you said that El Salvador would have to cooperate. You have no doubt that if President Trump wanted him returned, that he could ask President Bukele to return him, right? I mean -- I mean, President Trump could make this happen.

HOMAN: I am not involved in discussion. I can't comment on something I don't know. I can't comment --

KARL: But what do you think? I mean, you know, you know president --

HOMAN: -- on discussions I'm not involved in.

KARL: I mean, you know President Trump. You've talked about how, you know, he can get things done. I mean, if he wanted the guy returned, he could get them returned, right?

HOMAN: I do, I'm not going to comment on conversations I'm not a part of. I don't know what conversations are having, what conversations -- who's having what conversation, what officials. I'm not in the loop on that.

KARL: So more broadly, let me ask you, I know you're a law guy. You've sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution. You did that through your entire career. The general principle I want to ask you is, do you agree that the Constitution extends -- those constitutional rights that we all have extend to every person in the United States?

HOMAN: Yes.

KARL: Every person no matter what crime they're accused of or no matter their legal status?

HOMAN: And we have followed the Constitution. We have followed the law. I am confident that everything we've done is follow laws within the constitutional constructs, absolutely.

KARL: And so that right of due process is something -- the Fifth Amendment right of due process extends to everybody who would be deported, they have the chance to have a hearing on this.

HOMAN: The length of due process is not the same under the Alien Enemies Act. That's why the Alien Enemies Act was created. President Trump invoked the authorities he had under the Alien Enemies Act, an act written and passed by Congress and signed by a president. We're using the laws on the books, the statutes on the books to secure the border and remove significant public safety threats and national security threats to this country.

KARL: But let me get more specific on this. The Supreme Court has long held that constitutional rights extend to every person in the United States. Justice Scalia, the majority opinion that he wrote back in 1993 wrote, "It is well established that the Fifth Amendment entitles aliens to due process in law -- of law in deportation proceedings."

Are you saying that by invoking the Alien Enemies Act that undocumented immigrants are not entitled to those due process rights under the Fifth Amendment?

HOMAN: What I'm saying the procedure under the Alien Enemies Act is less than it is during like a Title Eight removal proceeding, and we're following the rules of the Alien Enemies Act. Again, I think this administration has followed the law. They're using statutes enacted by Congress, signed by a president, to remove terrorists from this country. I'm not saying, you know -- I'm not saying, I'm not arguing right here that nobody should get due process. I'm just saying there's a different process under the Alien Enemies Act, and less of a process than you see through Title Eight.

KARL: Let me ask you, do you have any qualms about sending people to that notorious prison in El Salvador with no assurance that they will ever have a chance to get out? People that have no record, have not been convicted of any violent crimes. Do you have any qualms about that?

HOMAN: I believe we're removing public safety threats and terrorists, designated terrorists, to that prison in El Salvador. Tren de Aragua, MS-13 have been designated terrorist organizations. What you don't know, what most readers don't know, they haven't seen or experienced what I've seen in my 40 years. I started working in 1984. I've talked to young girls as young as 9 who were raped by members of these gang cartels.

I've held dead bodies throughout my career. I've talked to hundreds of angel moms and dads whose children were killed and brutally murdered by members of MS-13 who just didn't kill them, they mutilated them, they tortured them. So if people wore my shoes for the last 40 years, and seen the travesties I've seen, they would understand that the worst of the worst need to be sent to a prison like that because we got to protect American citizens, we got to put to protect this country.

KARL: And you're saying there's no mistakes, no mistakes that everybody sent to this prison, again, with no guarantee of any right to have a chance to challenge their imprisonment, any prospect of release?

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: -- and they didn’t -- none of these people, as you've acknowledged, have gone through a full trial.

And now --

(CROSSTALK)

HOMAN: You need to read the Alien Enemies Act. We follow the Alien Enemies Act, and you're talking like it's a Title 8 removal. This isn't a Title 8 removal. That’s a different procedure written --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: Yeah, so you’re acknowledging --

HOMAN: -- written into law by Congress, Alien Enemies Act.

KARL: So, no extended proceedings, no chance to prove their innocence. Somebody's got a bad tattoo.

HOMAN: I’m telling you there’s a --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: Somebody’s been accused -- I mean, you acknowledge tattoos are part of the calculation here. I mean, you might have a tattoo --

HOMAN: That’s one factor of many factors. I worked -- have you, have you been in an alien gang squad? Cause I have. Tattoos are one of many factors that's going to determine someone’s in a gang.

That's not the only one. You can't say, okay, tattoo gang member, no, there's other (INAUDIBLE) added to that tattoo. Tattoo’s one factor that adds to other factors that makes that determination.

What I'm saying is you can't ignore a tattoo. That's one more factor that leads you to believe maybe it's a gang member. It's just not based on tattoos. It's based on a lot of other things, but tattoos, one of many. But no one's removed just because of a tattoo.

KARL: In other words, the Alien Enemies Act means you can grab somebody and you can deport them without an extended hearing, because you have labeled them a terrorist, because you -- because you’ve said -- you've determined that somebody is a member of the gang, and therefore they don't have to go through the extended process of the -- of the opportunity to have a full hearing. That's what you're saying. I mean, let's just be clear.

HOMAN: I'm saying we're following the laws of this country.

KARL: OK.

HOMAN: There's a different procedure for each one. We're doing things within the frame of the law. We're doing things legally.

KARL: OK.

HOMAN: I stand by that.

Now, again, I'm not a constitutional scholar. I'm not going to argue this in court. That's what the Department of Justice does, but we're -- I'm sitting here today, thinking we've done the right thing for this nation, following the laws and the Constitution of this country.

KARL: All right. Tom Homan, the Trump administration's border czar, thank you for joining us this morning.

HOMAN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: The White House responded to the Supreme Court's temporary hold on the use of the Alien Enemies Act in a statement from Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt, saying in part: We are confident in the lawfulness of the administration's actions and ultimately prevailing against an onslaught of meritless litigation brought by radical activist who is care more about the rights of terrorist aliens than those of the American people.

Coming up, House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries says Republicans are breaking the economy. So what is he going to do about it? I'll ask him next.

We'll be right back.

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REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES, (D-NY) HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: We're in a crisis across the board, right? I mean, that is obvious for everyone to see. This is not normal. The president is assaulting the economy, assaulting Social Security, assaulting healthcare, assaulting the American way of life, and assaulting our democracy. None of this is normal. It is all a crisis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries, who joins me now.

Leader Jeffries, thank you for being here. Let me get right at what you were saying, because I also heard you say that Republicans are breaking the economy and will own all of the damage that is being done to the American people. So, what are Democrats going to do about it?

JEFFRIES: Well, we're going to continue to make clear that the cost of living in the United States of America is too high. Donald Trump and Republicans promised to lower the cost of living. In fact, on day one, costs aren't going down. They are going up. And they are crashing the economy in real time and, in fact, driving us toward a recession.

Democrats have a different vision. We want to build an affordable economy for hardworking American taxpayers, and we're ready to work with anyone in good faith to get that done. But that's not occurring in the Congress right now, which is why things are heading in a bad direction.

KARL: But let me ask you about a Gallup poll that came out recently, asking people how much confidence they have in various people to -- to deal with the economy. And Donald Trump only -- you know, 44 percent have a great deal or fair amount of confidence, but that was -- GOP leaders were next, the Fed Chairman, the Speaker of the House. And when you get down to the bottom, Democratic leaders Chuck Schumer down at the bottom. You had only 30 percent.

So, what do Democrats have to do to convince the American people that they have a better plan on the economy than the Republicans?

JEFFRIES: Well, this week, we'll be having a cost of living week of action, and we have to continue to talk to the American people about our plans. We recognize that housing costs are too high, grocery costs are too high, utility costs are too high, childcare costs are too high, insurance costs are too high. America is too expensive.

Now, Donald Trump is the president. And in terms of his approval as it relates to the economy, it was his biggest strength on January 20th. Now, it's his greatest weakness.

There are a variety of different polls that are out there, including most recently a Morning Consult poll, that showed that Congressional Democrats were actually trusted more than Congressional Republicans on the economy for the first time in four years.

We're going to continue to press our case on the economy, continue to press our case on protecting and strengthening Social Security, which is what we are committed to do. Republicans are trying to detonate Social Security as we know it. And certainly, we're going to protect the healthcare of the American people.

KARL: You've seen those huge crowds that Bernie Sanders and AOC have gotten at their 'Fighting Oligarchy Tour.' Is that where the energy of the Democratic Party is right now? Is it with the progressive left? Is that the direction the party's going to turn?

JEFFRIES: I think the energy of the Democratic Party right now is across the board. And everyone has made that observation, that this is not a right/left moment, it's a moment of right versus wrong. And we've got to be able to stand up to this assault that is underway led by Donald Trump and his compliant Republicans in the House and the Senate. An assault on the economy, on Social Security, on Medicaid, an insult on the democratic way of life as we know it.

KARL: I saw Senator Sanders had said in an interview this week that he was skeptical of Kamala Harris, and he mentioned Joe Biden as well -- and having a future in the national Democratic Party. He said, "I think the future of the Democratic Party is not going to rest with the kind of leadership that we've had."

Is -- is he right? Do you think Democrats are looking for new leaders?

JEFFRIES: I think what we've got in front of us in terms of politically is that we have to win the races that are up next. That's a governor's race in New Jersey and a governor's race in Virginia. Those two in November are going to be critically important, and we certainly have to win back control of the House of Representatives next year.

Now, we're pushing back in the Congress. We're pushing back in the courts, and we're pushing back in the communities, including wherever there are special elections on the campaign trail.

And, in fact, Democrats are winning special elections month after month after month, including most recently a decisive one in Wisconsin earlier this month for the state Supreme Court.

KARL: David Hogg, who I know you know, vice chair of the Democratic National Committee, he's going to be joining us on the roundtable, and he is pursuing this effort to unseat some Democrats in safe seats through primary challenges. He's talked about a culture of seniority politics that is not working for the party.

He said, quote, "We need a better Democratic Party and need to get rid of the Democrats in safe seats who do not understand what is at stake now, who are asleep at the wheel not meeting the moment, and are a liability now into the future of our party."

What's your response to this idea of targeting your -- some of your Democratic incumbents?

JEFFRIES: Well, I look forward to standing behind every single Democratic incumbent, from the most progressive, to the most centrist, and all points in between. They're working hard in their communities, rising to the occasion.

This past week we had, of course, Medicaid Matters Day of Action, a Save Social Security Day of Action, and we have to continue to do all of the things -- rallies, town hall meetings in Democratic districts, town hall meetings in Republican districts, days of action, telephone town hall meetings, site visits, press conferences. We are in a more is more environment and more is going to continue to be required of all of us.

Now, the House is the institution that is known to be -- was built to be the closest to the American people. That's why we have elections every two years. Primaries are a fact of life. But here's the thing. I'm going to really focus on trying to defeat Republican incumbents so we can take back control of the House of Representatives and begin the process of ending this national nightmare that's being visited upon us by far-right extremism.

KARL: All right. Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries, thank you for joining us before running into Easter services. We appreciate you. Have a Happy Easter.

The roundtable is coming up. Plus, George Stephanopoulos with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro about the shocking arson attack on his home. That next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: Early last Sunday morning after hosting a Passover Seder, Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro and his family were evacuated from the governor's official residence in Harrisburg as an arson fire tore through the mansion. It was a stunning breach of security. The suspect is now facing multiple charges including attempted murder and terrorism.

Our George Stephanopoulos spoke with Governor Shapiro at his residence after the attack.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHANOPOULOS: You said it was clear to you it’s not an accidental fire. It’s clear to everyone now that that's not what happened. Was this a hate crime?

GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D), PENNSYLVANIA: I think that's a question for the prosecutors to determine. They're going to determine motive.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But what does your gut tell you? I mean, this man was talking about Gaza, talking about Palestine, talking about his hatred for you.

SHAPIRO: I recognize when you’re -- you're in these positions of power, there are people out there that want to do you harm. I try not to be captive to the fear and I try not to worry or think about why people want to do that harm.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You say you don't want to be captive to it, but this is something we’re seeing. This isn’t a dramatic and scary example of it. We’re seeing this kind of rise in threats and attacks all across the country. Homeland Security has been warning about it for years.

SHAPIRO: Yeah, it's real. I mean, this is, sadly, a real part of our society today and it needs to be universally condemned, George. I don't care if it's coming from the left, from the right. I don't care if it's coming from someone who you voted for, or someone who you didn’t vote for, someone on your team or someone on the other team. I think every single leader has a responsibility to speak and act with moral clarity and condemn this kind of violence.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You talked about hearing from fellow governors, people from all over Pennsylvania, all over the country. Have you heard from President Trump?

SHAPIRO: I haven't.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Not at all?

SHAPIRO: No.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Anybody in the administration?

SHAPIRO: I heard immediately that day from Director Patel of the FBI and I’ve heard from Attorney General Bondi.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Attorney General Bondi has not yet said this is an act of terrorism. Do you believe it was?

SHAPIRO: I think that's a question for the prosecutors, both the local district attorney and the Department of Justice.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Why don’t you want to address that question, because we even saw Senator Schumer today sent a letter to the attorney general saying he believes this should be labeled --

SHAPIRO: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: -- and investigated as a hate crime.

SHAPIRO: I'm not sure it's helpful for people on the outside to be weighing in with their opinions here, George, no matter who they are.

You've asked me a couple times why I haven't sort of given you maybe the kind of answer that you're seeking. I want to explain why.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Yeah.

SHAPIRO: I know as a former prosecutor how important it is to follow the evidence and apply the law and to do so without fear or favor. In this case, I'm the victim of the crime. I'm not the prosecutor. The prosecutors will weigh all the different evidence, determine what the motive is.

I think for me to dwell on that, to focus on that, is not my job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: We are grateful that Governor Shapiro and his family are safe.

When we return, a Republican senator says it can be dangerous to criticize Donald Trump.

The roundtable is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI, (R-AK): We are all afraid, okay? We are in a time and a place where, I don't know, I, I certainly have not -- I have not been here before. I am oftentimes very anxious myself about using my voice, because retaliation is real. And that's not right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was Alaska's Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski speaking candidly about her fears of Trump retribution. Let's bring in the Roundtable. Former DNC Chair Donna Brazile, Former RNC Chair Reince Priebus, Politico Senior Political Columnist Jonathan Martin, and DNC Vice Chair David Hogg, President and Co-Founder of Leaders We Deserve, a debut on the Roundtable. Thank you for being here.

Jon, let me start with you. And the Murkowski, it was quite a statement for me sitting Republican Senator --

JONATHAN MARTIN, POLITICO SENIOR POLITICAL COLUMNIST: Yeah.

KARL: -- saying, retaliation is real and she's talking about retaliation from the president of her party.

MARTIN: Yeah. And I think it's important to step back with a bit of perspective because there's often so much in the daily hurly-burly and the press gets accused of hyperventilating at times. Let's take these clips back to back. You have a sitting Democratic governor who was nearly killed by an arsonist, who got into the governor's mansion in Pennsylvania, who the sitting president of the United States cannot call to offer his sympathies because he doesn't like his politics.

Then you have a sitting Republican Senator, a longtime GOP Senator, prominent Republican family from Alaska, who is talking openly about being scared of retribution. Not just political by the way, but physical threats to her and her family's safety. It's uncharted territory. And I think it is incumbent upon the people in the Republican Party to speak up about it. It's not normal. It's not healthy.

If this happened under a Clinton or a Bush or anybody else, Obama, what have you, they'd be screaming from the rooftops. And I think those two cases, back to back, Shapiro and Murkowski, tell us everything about the peril of this moment. And it's deeply serious.

KARL: Reince?

REINCE PRIEBUS, FORMER RNC CHAIR & FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF & ABC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, unfortunately, division is very profitable in America. Unity, unfortunately, sometimes is not profitable. It should be. Donna and I had, I think, a pretty special morning the day after President Trump was shot and nearly killed. Certainly, rhetoric should calm down.

But on the other hand, we have a Senator that does nothing but win elections. Her father was a Senator. We have a very popular president, more popular in our party than Ronald Reagan. And if she's talking about the retribution of going against the president and suffering at the ballot box, well, that's the consequence of having a different opinion than a very popular president.

MARTIN: Can I --

PRIEBUS: So, you can look at this two ways, but certainly, if it's regarding violence, no one condones that.

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: And I agree there's no place for political violence in our society. But, I have known the Senator because she was very close friends with my former Senator, Mary Landrieu. She's been a champion for Alaskans, the energy interests of Alaskans. She's also a champion for Alaskan fish -- the fisheries and others.

She has been speaking out against these tariffs. She has been speaking out against these Medicaid cuts that would essentially rob Peter, Paul, and Mary. She has used her voice, and I hope she doesn't lose that ability to speak up and to talk about these issues. She has shown over the years, she was primary back in 2022, I believe and she overcame that.

So she wins election, but I also believe she wins the hearts and minds of people of Alaska because she fights for their interests.

PRIEBUS: I just remember that primary, she had to run as a write-in candidate.

BRAZILE: Thank you. And you have to learn how to spell her last name.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: 2010

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: So I'm so curious, what is she afraid of? Well, I mean, what is -- what is she alleging?

DAVID HOGG, DNC VICE CHAIR & CO-FOUNDER & PRESIDENT OF LEADERS WE DESERVE: I mean, death threats for one.

PRIEBUS: What is she alleging? Is she alleging that --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: You don't -- you don't think Donald Trump takes revenge out against particular Republicans (inaudible)?

PRIEBUS: What is she? Yeah. And then, and you know what? You could lose a primary, that's what happens.

KARL: So, David, like more broadly, are we seeing a more energized Democratic resistance to Trump? I mean, we're starting to see these protests are starting to spread. We saw Harvard come out and did what they did. Are we starting to see, you know, more of a resistance?

HOGG: I think we're certainly starting to go see more of a resistance, and in particular, though, it's not just a Democratic one. I cannot tell you the number of people I've talked to around the country, especially older voters that we know consistently vote at incredibly high rates in our midterm elections, they're furious about what is happening with Social Security, that are furious with the rising costs that Trump has inflicted upon the American people, and the number of people that are concerned that they won't be able to retire, that have had to delay their retirements for years because Donald Trump has decided to toy with the economy instead of doing his job of just being president in the first place.

So we are energized and there are people out there. And what I'm trying to do with this effort right now with the primaries in particular is do two things at once. One, make sure that we're handling, you know, the conflicts within our own party productively and seats that do not risk us losing the majority while also making sure that we make Hakeem Jeffries the next speaker of the House by rallying our base and giving people something to vote for.

We cannot just be the party that is against Donald Trump. We have to be a party that doesn't have a 27 percent approval rating from our own base. That is not a survivable future.

KARL: Let me --

HOGG: And the way that we change that is making sure we have some different characters. We're talking Democratic politics all the time about it's the messaging. It's the messaging. It's the messaging. You can have Shakespeare write the best script, if you have bad actors, it doesn't matter.

KARL: So let me just follow up for a second because you're talking about this effort that you're leading that's going to include going after Democratic incumbents, you say in safe seats?

HOGG: In safe seats. Yes.

KARL: Safe seats, because it's time to get -- we have the seniority politics. You're trying to get some fresh blood into the Democratic system. You heard Hakeem Jeffries. He actually seemed a little irritated with you or with the effort. He's like, I think we should focus on beating Republicans, not on beating Democrats.

HOGG: I think it's going to be a hell of a lot harder for us to beat Republicans with a 27 percent approval rating. We cannot simply go out there and say, look, guys, we're not Donald Trump. Vote for us. We need to show people the way that Democrats fight for democracy is by using democracy to revive the American dream, to help combat the rising costs of health care, of housing, of eldercare, of child care and education, and, and making sure that we remember that our young people in particular, they are losing faith in our democracy and people of all ages because they feel the American dream does not exist for them anymore. And the answer to that is using democracy with courageous Democrats that actually want to fight back against what's happening.

BRAZILE: They are losing faith --

KARL: Donna, what's wrong -- yes, go ahead.

BRAZILE: They are losing trust in all of our institutions -- the media, business, whole civil society. We're in a crisis. I don't know if we want to call it a constitutional crisis. But we're in a -- as former President Biden was an inflection point.

Look, I think what David is trying to do is to not just help to re-energize the party but to help rebrand the Democratic Party. The concern that offices of the DNC right now, they have signed the neutrality pledge. David did not sign the neutrality pledge. So he's in hot water with Ken. I told him he threw a rock in the water. The two of them, and the offices, they've got to get out of the hot water. But that's not my position right now.

My position is many of these so-called safe blue seats, and I can get in trouble, many of them are seats that women and minorities finally had an opportunity to come and sit in because there were no seats at the table for us. So before you start wiping clean the menu and the plates and the seats, be very careful because many of those seats are --

KARL: As a former party chair, Reince, how would you handle a vice chair who was going to primary --

PRIEBUS: Well, I'll answer and then I'll explain it. I mean, unfortunately, David, I'd have you removed from the party because I think, number one, I think you're sincere. I don't question that. I think you're right. The Democrats are a complete mess. They have no movement.

KARL: I don't think that's exactly what he said.

PRIEBUS: They've got no -- well, he said they've got no message. They've got no movement. They've got no leader. I mean, it doesn't get any worse than that. I mean, you're defending Harvard. You're traveling to El Salvador for MS-13 gang members. But here's the point.

KARL: Alleged.

PRIEBUS: You're taking $20 million, if I'm looking at someone, my vice chair, the RNC taking $20 million for another effort, it's $20 million out of the DNC's pocket. You can't be on the board of the fishing and forest company and on Greenpeace at the same time. There are places for --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: Can I make one --

BRAZILE: I think David was right.

HOGG: Let me push back against that. This was not an MS-13 gang member and you damn well know that.

PRIEBUS: Oh, come on.

HOGG: He was not. And the only -- the administration --

PRIEBUS: So keep defending this guy.

(CROSSTALK)

HOGG: We are a land of law and order, and this administration is repeatedly showing time and time again, they do not care about what the Supreme Court says. They do not care about the rule of law. And you cannot defend sending people to another country where they don't have rights.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: Most Americans think that all illegal immigration should be deported, by the way. So you're losing your effort. So if you want to try to defend the constitutionality of deporting an illegal immigrant that's here --

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: He's here illegally. The Intel community -- every Intel community agency and the White House say he is a member of MS-13.

KARL: Hey, Reince, right. OK. Right. You made your point.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: The two parties want to make this about two very different arguments. Obviously, the GOP wants to make this a more narrow case about the nature of this individual because the politics there speak for themselves, obviously not popular. The Democrats want to make this about the broader point, the Constitution and due process, and it's not about the individual who perhaps in this case is inconvenient. It's about the principle.

Here's why it actually matters beyond those two arguments. It's what Trump wants to do, which is deport American citizens who commit crimes to foreign prisons. Don't take my word for it. He said himself twice now. That's where this is going. This is a test case for Trump to get Americans out of the country.

KARL: So I -- we're almost out of -- I want to get to one other issue that he -- this effort to go after the universities, Harvard stood up right against it. And then it turns out New York Times is reporting that the demands that were made of Harvard were sent in error?

MARTIN: Yes.

KARL: I mean, what is going on?

MARTIN: Well, it's the same week where you had I think four or five staffers from DOD pushed out. You've --

BRAZILE: IRS.

MARTIN: Obviously, every day, every week.

KARL: How many IRS?

BRAZILE: Three.

MARTIN: Five IRS commissioners.

BRAZILE: Three, four.

MARTIN: Again, if it happened under any other administration, it would be blaring headlines, sort of Pearl Harbor size font every single day. But it's one more day at the Trump office. It's Keystone Kops, there's no question about it.

BRAZILE: Yeah.

MARTIN: Here's the big issue.

BRAZILE: You are out of time.

MARTIN: Harvard drew a line in the sand and said no more. And I think other schools, other law firms are going to see that example and follow suit, and they're going to say that Trump, you won 49 percent, not 49 states.

PRIEBUS: Only American universities are less popular than Democrats.

KARL: All right, we will be right back. Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: That's all for us. Thank you for sharing part of your Easter Sunday with us. We leave you today with the appearance of the Pope this morning. Pope Francis at Saint Peter's Square for an Easter blessing, a welcome site after his recent 30-day -- 38-day hospital stay. Have a great day.