'This Week' Transcript 4-27-25: Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent and former Biden national security adviser Jake Sullivan

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, April 27, 2025 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

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ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

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MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC "THIS WEEK" ANCHOR: Whiplash as the president closes in on 100 days in office.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I said there would be a transition. People haven't understood it. Now they're starting to understand.

RADDATZ: After his sweeping tariffs rattled the global economy, President Trump tries to turn down the heat with China.

TRUMP: We're going to end up with a lot of good deals, including tariff deals and trade deals. We're going to make our country rich.

RADDATZ: This morning, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent on what's next in the trade war. It's a THIS WEEK exclusive. Plus results from our brand-new poll on how Americans view President Trump's first 100 days.

Prospects for peace. Trump meets with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy in Rome in a major push to end the war with Russia.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: It's about how to bring peace. And we want to continue such meetings to bring peace to Ukraine.

RADDATZ: We'll have reaction from former Biden National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan.

And, final farewell. The world comes together as Pope Francis is laid to rest. We look ahead to the secretive conclave and who could be elected the next pope.

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ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it's THIS WEEK. Here now, Martha Raddatz.

RADDATZ: Good morning and welcome to THIS WEEK. It was an historic weekend in Rome as hundreds of thousands turned out for the final farewell to Pope Francis as he was laid to rest. And on the sidelines of that solemn occasion, world leaders were coming together to push for peace in Ukraine. These are the powerful images of President Trump with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy at St. Peter's Basilica on Saturday, a sign of hope for those negotiations.

But here at home, President Trump clearly facing challenges as he reaches an historic marker in his presidency. This week will mark 100 days in office for the president. And this morning, our brand-new ABC News/"Washington Post"/Ipsos poll has some potential warning signs for the White House on how Americans are viewing these first 100 days. Just 39 percent of Americans approve of how Trump is handling his job as president. That's the lowest 100 days approval rating of any president in the past 80 years.

And on the economy, one of the issues that helped put him in the White House, Americans hold widely negative views of Trump's performance. Fifty-three percent say the economy has gotten worse since Trump took office, with 72 percent saying it is very or somewhat likely that his economic policies will cause a recession.

We'll ask Trump's Treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, about what comes next in the trade war. But first, we wanted to see how those policies are affecting people outside Washington, traveling to Annapolis, Maryland, this week to see how tariffs are already impacting business owners and consumers.

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RADDATZ (voice over): When former Marine Corps pilot and combat veteran Barton O'Brien first heard President Trump's promise on the campaign trail to tariff imported goods, he worried about how it would impact his own thriving specialty pet gear business.

BARTON O’BRIEN, BAYDOG FOUNDER & CEO: I did an analysis and realized that would pretty much put us out of business.

RADDATZ (voice over): O’Brien is the founder of Baydog in Maryland, whose signature products, dog harnesses and life jackets, are made overseas, which would mean Trump's tariffs raised the cost of all his products. So O’Brien figured he would get ahead of it just in case.

O’BRIEN: We borrowed as much money as we could. We accelerated all of our production runs, and we brought as much inventory, almost a year's worth of inventory, into the country before the tariffs took effect.

RADDATZ (voice over): Inventory like this, 132,000 harnesses, leashes and life jackets lining this warehouse floor to ceiling, goods ready to hit retail stores where consumers can still pay their normal prices. But the problem now, O’Brien ordered products for the fall as well, but getting them here from China would be a huge expense.

O’BRIEN: So, we have $150,000 worth of dog harnesses sitting in our factory right now. Andwith the current 145 percent tariff, it would cost me $217,000 just to bring it into the country. So, I'm – I'm actually better off just lighting that on fire and taking the loss than I am trying to bring it into the country.

RADDATZ: If tomorrow they say, look, we've got this all straightened out, we're not going to have these massive tariffs, have you still taken a hit?

O’BRIEN: Even if you turned off the tariffs tomorrow, everyone would try to ship all at once, and then shipping costs would go way up, and that would translate into price increases.

RADDATZ (voice over): O’Brien understands President Trump's rationale that tariffs could help bring manufacturing back to the U.S., but he said for his customers it would mean higher prices.

O’BRIEN: This product, which is our most popular dog harness, if I made it in America it would retail for about $114. Right now it retails for about $34. With the current tariff, it will drive, for me to break even, it drives the price up to $86.

RADDATZ (voice over): And that would only be the case if his business even survived.

O’BRIEN: I would have to spend about a million dollars to build a production facility. I don't have a million dollars. I also have no expertise in how to do that. All the machines I would have to buy are made overseas. And then once – if I were to get it set up, it would take about 18 months, over which time I would probably go bankrupt.

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RADDATZ: OK. And now I am joined by President Trump's Treasury secretary, Scott Bessent.

Thanks for joining us this morning, Mr. Secretary. We appreciate it.

Let's start with the polls. For the very first time the president's polling numbers on the economy are under water with 53 percent saying it has gotten worse under President Trump, with 72 percent of those in our poll saying it is very or somewhat likely that his economic policies will cause a recession.

Your reaction?

SCOTT BESSENT, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: Well, Martha, I haven't seen the polls. And for the past 35 years, my business was analyzing data. So, I think we’ve probably got to dig down into those.

But what I do know is that Americans are behaving very different than what the surveys say. So, the surveys may say that, but consumers are still spending. So, I prefer to look at what Americans are doing rather than how they're answering pollsters.

RADDATZ: And it doesn't worry you the poll numbers that you have seen?

BESSENT: When I start seeing data to the contrary, then the – we can look at that. But, you know, again, these poll numbers, and also, you know, when I look at the sum of the things that are being published, there was a story ten days ago that said, this is the worst April for the stock market since the Great Depression. Ten days later, the Nasdaq is now up in the month of April. And I haven't seen a story that says, oh, the stock market has biggest bounce back ever. So, I think – I think –

RADDATZ: Well, it certainly – it certainly has gone back and forth.

Let – let’s jump –

BESSENT: I think a lot of this is media driven.

RADDATZ: Let's talk about the "Time" interview with President Trump. He said he has made 200 deals on tariffs. Two hundred deals? Who has he made deals with? Is there actually any deal at this point?

BESSENT: I believe that he is referring to sub deals within the negotiations we're doing. And, you know, Martha, if there are 180 countries –

RADDATZ: But those aren't actual deals?

BESSENT: Martha, if there are 180 countries, there are 18 important trading partners, let's put China to the side, because that's a special negotiation, there's 17 important trading partners, and we have a process in place, over the next 90 days, to negotiate with them. Some of those are moving along very well, especially the – with the Asian countries.

RADDATZ: And President Trump's strategy really has been to announce these tariffs, and dial some back, pause them, make exceptions. Explain why you see this as a good negotiating strategy.

BESSENT: Well, in game theory, it's called strategic uncertainty. So, you're not going to tell the person on the other side of the negotiation where you're going to end up. And nobody’s better at creating this leverage than President Trump. You know, he's shown these – the high tariffs, and here's the stick. This is where the tariffs can go. And the carrot is, come to us, take off your tariffs, take off your non-tariff trade barriers, stop manipulating your currency, stop subsidizing labor and capital and then we can talk.

But I tell you, Martha, that we've had several of these Asian countries have come in and said, oh, well, we'll stop doing this, this, and this. And I look at these lists and I think, how did we get here? How did we get here? Because this trading system has been so unfair. And as President Trump says, I don't blame the countries, I blame the previous administrations that let them get away with it.

RADDATZ: But, Mr. Secretary, look at what you just heard from Barton O’Brien there. The administration says it's worried about main street not Wall Street. But you heard that smallbusinessman saying his inventory in China might as well be lit on fire because already what has happened and the concern about what's happening next.

How do they plan for things if they don't know what's going to happen?

BESSENT: Well, what they know is that the China tariffs are unsustainable because the Chinese cannot sustain this, that if the business people, like the gentleman you interviewed, stop ordering, China has no business model. Their business model is predicated on selling cheap, subsidized goods to the U.S. And if there's a sudden stop in that, they will have a sudden stop in the economy, so they will negotiate.

RADDATZ: Well, look, some of the leaders of the big box stores -- Wal-Mart, Target -- delivered a warning to President Trump that some of the shelves could be empty within a matter of weeks. I know you're looking forward, but this is a concern right now.

BESSENT: And we -- that's why we are negotiate -- negotiating these deals, and we're moving forward with this. Again, as the gentleman in Annapolis said, Martha, the goal is not to manufacture dog collars again in the U.S., that the president is looking forward to the jobs of the future, not the jobs of the past. The goal is to bring back high-performance manufacturing jobs or create high-performance manufacturing jobs. Right now --

RADDATZ: How long does that take? I mean, that is such a concern. How long does it take to bring that to the U.S.?

BESSENT: Well --

RADDATZ: Is there a plan?

BESSENT: Of course, but it's a process. Right now, the U.S. has a barbell economy. We have a very advanced financial system. We have tech exploration and development that is the envy in the world.

On the other side, we are a natural resource economy led by energy, which the previous administration tried to stifle, and in between is where working class Americans have lost out. And we want to bring back these manufacturing jobs or create these manufacturing jobs of the future, and we are meeting with companies that want to do this every day.

RADDATZ: And this is that -- that moment of pain or that transition with pain, but, again, how long does that last? Is there anything you can say about that, how fast you can bring these manufacturing jobs?

BESSENT: Well, look, Martha, it's a reallocation, because what we are doing, the federal government is shedding labor. We're trying to get the private sector to pick that up. But we have a very low unemployment rate. It's not like we have to create jobs. What we need to create are good paying jobs with fair trade. That is what the president is doing.

RADDATZ: Let's talk about China. President Trump, again, said he's spoken to President Xi of China, and negotiations are ongoing. But China has firmly denied this saying that China and the U.S. have not consulted or negotiated on the tariff issue.

So are negotiations actually happening? Who is talking?

BESSENT: Look, this was IMF-World Bank Week. They are in D.C., as you know. I had interaction with my Chinese counterparts, but it was more on the traditional things like financial stability, global economic early warnings. I don't know if President Trump has spoken with President Xi. I know they have a very good relationship and a lot of respect for each other.

But, again, I think the Chinese will see this high tariff level is unsustainable for their business.

RADDATZ: Why would they deny that negotiations are going on?

BESSENT: Well, I think they're playing to a different audience.

RADDATZ: So they're actually going on -- there's actually things happening, the Chinese are just denying, but it's not true?

BESSENT: That the -- we have a process in place, and, again, I just believe these Chinese tariffs are unsustainable.

RADDATZ: OK. According to Bloomberg, you said --

BESSENT: The Chinese business model.

RADDATZ: According to Bloomberg you said a comprehensive deal between the U.S. and China could happen in two to three years. Trump said a deal will come quickly. You’ve heard him say that. You said, obviously, it was going to be a slog.

So how long do you think?

BESSENT: Well, look, I think that there is a path here.

So the first path will be, again, a de-escalation, which I think the Chinese are going to have to have. Then I think there can be an agreement in principle, these 17 or 18 important trade deals that we're negotiating, the actual papering of the trade deal. A trade deal can take months, but an agreement in principle and the good behavior and staying within the parameter of the deal by our trading partners can keep the tariffs there from ratcheting back to the maximum level, sure.

RADDATZ: And it's very rare, I think it happened a couple times in the '70s, for the dollars, stocks and bonds to get hit as hard as they simultaneously did over the last few weeks.

If the goal is to get countries to stand with us against China, does it worry you at all that investors seem to be losing confidence in the U.S.?

BESSENT: Well, again, you’re saying losing confidence. And the – I don't think that this is necessarily losing confidence. And anything – I've been in the markets for 35, 40 years. Anything that happens over a two-week, one-month window can be either statistical noise or market noise. And they – you know, we're in this for the long term. And the important thing is that we are setting the fundamentals for a strong dollar, a strong economy, a strong stock market, and for investors to know that they – that the U.S. government bond market is the safest and soundest in the world.

RADDATZ: OK, thanks so much for joining us this morning, Mr. Secretary.

We turn now to what could a dramatic escalation in the Trump administration’s deportation efforts. This week the FBI arrested a judge in Milwaukee County, accusing her of helping an undocumented immigrant evade arrest by authorities in her courtroom. Our chief justice correspondent Pierre Thomas has the details.

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PIERRE THOMAS, ABC NEWS SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This week, a sitting state court judge is facing federal charges and up to six years in prison in what critics are saying is a major escalation in the Trump administration's effort to pressure officials to assist in deportation efforts targeting millions of undocumented immigrants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Judge, anything to say about this?

THOMAS (voice over): Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Hannah Dugan, seen here leaving court after being arrested by the FBI. Dugan faces multiple charges for allegedly obstructing ICE agents trying to arrest an undocumented immigrant. According to a newly unsealed indictment on April 18th, Dugan was visibly upset and had a confrontational angry demeanor when she and another judge confronted a group of federal agents that had come to her courthouse to arrest Eduardo Flores Ruiz, an undocumented Mexican citizen, who was in court to face misdemeanor domestic violence charges. Agents said she told him to go to see the chief judge in the courthouse and went back to her courtroom where Judge Dugan then escorted Flores Ruiz and his council out of the courtroom through a jury door. Flores Ruiz was later arrested near the courthouse.

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: She let a criminal defendant walk out a door. She helped them. She obstructed justice. And that’s what she’s charged with. If you commit a crime in this country, you're going to be held accountable. It doesn't matter. We're going to prosecute you. No one is above the law. Not even a judge.

THOMAS (voice over): News of the arrest drew protesters to the courthouse. Dugan's attorney saying in court, she wholeheartedly protests the arrest and believes it was not made in the interests of public safety.

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THOMAS (on camera): That Wisconsin judge is vowing to fight the charges, but if convicted she faces up to six years in prison.

Martha.

RADDATZ: And our thanks to Pierre Thomas.

For more on this I’m joined now by former New Jersey governor and former federal prosecutor Chris Christie, and editor of SCOTUS blog and former Trump Justice Department spokesperson Sarah Isgur.

Good morning to you both.

And, Chris, I want to start with you. And let's talk about Wisconsin and what happened in that courtroom. You're a former prosecutor. Would you have brought charges against that judge?

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I’ll tell you, Martha, this is one of those situations where everybody, I think, is acting badly. All right, so, first off, I – you know, I don't know what this judge was thinking in terms of trying to help a criminal defendant try to avoid an arrest warrant from federal authorities. And, you know, it's not a typical judicial action in my experience. Not something a judge would normally do.

Now, on the other side, when you really read through this, you know, the – I don't know that the complaint, the indictment that was filed is completely consistent with the affidavit that was filed because, you know, this guy did wind up in a public courtroom near public elevators after he left the courtroom and was seen by one of the agents who was there to assist in the apprehension.

So, whether or not the way they're characterizing these facts are completely accurate is something we're going to have to see when we get to a trial in this case. I think the judge overstepped her bounds here.

Now, whether the appropriate remedy here, Martha, is an arrest and a federal indictment, clearly what the Justice Department is trying to do is send a very, very aggressive message against everyone in this conduct. And I don't know that that's something that I would have found necessary to do, especially when you apprehended the person within moments after they left the courtroom.

RADDATZ: Yes, so, Sarah, look at this. If what prosecutor Pam Bondi says is true, what did she really do that's illegal?

SARAH ISGUR, SCOTUS BLOG EDITOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: So, the two charges here are obstruction and concealment. This idea that she prevented these federal law enforcement officers from doing their jobs, and then she concealed someone who had a valid arrest warrant out for them.

They're going to have to prove all the facts in here, and as Chris said, there's some real questions about these facts and even if they proved them all, whether that amounts to this type of obstruction and concealment that is usually charged, they have a problem because she is a judge.

Now no court has found that judges are immune from criminal prosecution, but that Trump immunity decision that we talked about last year could be very relevant here whether they can even bring criminal charges against a judge who was in her own courtroom potentially doing something that could be seen as a, quote, "judicial act."

RADDATZ: So, Chris, what's the correct protocol here if ICE agents show up in a courtroom, and is that a normal thing that happens? ICE agents show up in a courtroom like that, or is this very much the Trump administration?

CHRIS CHRISTIE, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's a very aggressive way of doing things, but, look, there's nothing improper about it. They had an administrative arrest warrant for this person. This person was, in fact, charged with a crime, misdemeanor domestic violence, not something that any of us should ever, you know, take lightly. And so they knew then if this person was going to appear for their hearing here, that was a place they could get them.

All those things, I think, are appropriate law enforcement steps for them to take. The problem here is that everybody is ratcheting up the heat on this, and they got -- they accomplished what they wanted to accomplish, Martha. They arrested the man they wanted to arrest.

Now going after this judge now, I think, raises a whole new level of questions. As Sarah put it, the Trump immunity decision for this administration may giveth and taketh away here because, you know, giving that kind of broad immunity to the president, you can be sure that the judge as well is going to be arguing that a judge is entitled to similar immunity.

The problem with what the judge did here was she put herself in the middle of that situation where she had no jurisdiction or authority to do so. It was a federal matter. She is a state court judge, and to play games like that put her in a risky position whether she should go to jail or not I think is a much different question. I don't think she should. But, in the end, she did play outside the lines here, Martha, and I don't think it was an appropriate thing for a state court judge to do in this kind of situation.

RADDATZ: And I know one of the things that Pam Bondi said is that it's safer for those ICE agents to try to arrest someone inside the confines of that courtroom.

Sarah, I want to turn here to some information that has been in "The Washington Post" about deportations of very young children who are American citizens. A 2-year-old, a 4-year-old, a 7-year-old sent back to Honduras. Is that legal?

ISGUR: This is something our immigration system deals with nearly every day. U.S. citizen children have to make that decision with their parents of whether they're going to stay. The parent has the decision. We do not allow illegal alien parents to stay just because they have custody over U.S. citizen children, and at least one of these cases with the 2-year-old, the mother was the one who made the decision to take her daughter with her. The father is the one saying he wanted the daughter to stay here. Oftentimes, this can look more like a custody dispute than an immigration question.

RADDATZ: OK. Thanks so much to both of you, Sarah and Chris, this morning.

And a special programming note, ABC News will have an exclusive interview with President Trump in the Oval Office on his first 100 days with our own Terry Moran. Tune in Tuesday night for that primetime special.

Up next, the latest on the major diplomatic push to end the war in Ukraine plus my conversation with former Biden national security adviser Jake Sullivan on Trump's first 100 days on the world stage. We'll be right back.

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RADDATZ: That was the scene as world leaders gathered in Rome to pay their respects to Pope Francis, and behind the scenes a dramatic diplomatic effort played out as President Trump and Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy met face-to-face for the first time since that Oval Office blow up in February.

ABC's James Longman is in Rome and has the latest on the renewed push to end the war in Ukraine.

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JAMES LONGMAN, ABC NEWS CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pope Francis spent his life preaching peace, and in death, his work continued -- with President Trump and President Volodymyr Zelenskyy reunited at his funeral to discuss an end to the war in Ukraine.

This remarkable image shows the two men in intense discussion surrounded by the marble splendor of St. Peter's Basilica as the world gathered to remember Francis. It was the first meeting between Trump and Zelenskyy since that Oval Office eruption in February.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War III. You're gambling with World War III.

LONGMAN: Much of the U.S. pressure had been brought to bear on Ukraine but this latest meeting in this ancient place triggered a shift from President Trump who now appears to be threatening sanctions against Vladimir Putin. In a post on social media, he wondered if Putin is just tapping me along and has to be dealt with differently through banking or secondary sanctions.

He went on to scold Putin for an attack on Kyiv this week that killed at least 12 people and wounded more than a hundred. He posted: There was no reason for Putin to be shooting missiles into civilian areas, cities and towns over the last few days.

The White House called Trump and Zelenskyy's Vatican face-to-face very productive. Zelenskyy echoing that sentiment, saying it was a very symbolic meeting that has potential to become historic.

The two met alongside key allies France and Britain, and it comes at a critical time. President Trump claimed Friday night that Russia and Ukraine were very close to a deal. Trump is pushing a controversial peace plan in which Putin would maintain control of the territory he's taken since invading more than years ago and keep Crimea which Russia seized in 2014.

But Ukraine has always insisted they will not recognize Russia's control of Crimea. U.S. Special Envoy Steve Witkoff is trying to bridge that divide as he met with Putin for three hours Friday.

In his final message, Francis made a plea for the weapons of peace and often called for a ceasefire in Ukraine. “May the sound of arms be silenced in war-torn Ukraine.” His was a papacy focused on the margins, on the dispossessed, and the most vulnerable. He sent Vatican envoys and humanitarian assistance to Ukraine and met several times with Zelenskyy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LONGMAN (on camera): Martha, there are now multiple days of mourning which means the conclave can't start until May 5th at the earliest.

But with Russia now saying that they're willing to talk without preconditions, the diplomacy we saw on the margins of yesterday's funeral might yet produce the peace that Francis called for. But despite the rhetoric, both sides are still very far apart -- Martha.

RADDATZ: Our thanks to James Longman.

I'm joined now in studio with former Biden White House national security adviser Jake Sullivan.

It's good to see you, looking somewhat relaxed after your long time in service.

I -- you saw that meeting between President Trump and President Zelenskyy, very public images, very remarkable images really.

But what does that signal to you?

JAKE SULLIVAN, FORMER BIDEN NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, it gives me the first sliver of hope I've had in a while because what I've seen to date is President Trump giving Vladimir Putin U.S. recognition of Crimea, which Russia illegally occupied and annexed.

Even China hasn't recognized Crimea as part of Russia, and President Trump is telling the Russians he will do that. He's given Putin a promise that Ukraine will not be part of NATO, and he’s given Putin a promise that he can keep all the territory that he has illegally invaded and seized.

And what is Putin giving him? So far, nothing. But today, having Zelenskyy come out and say he thought it was a good meeting makes me think, OK, maybe President Trump is seeing that Putin is leading him down the garden path. And, in fact, President Trump said publicly that that might be the case.

RADDATZ: The – the – yes, and, in fact, I was just going to say that. We've heard him say that they were close to a deal. Russia wanted a deal. That – that President Zelenskyy was the harder guy to deal with. But this weekend on his social media platform he criticized Putin for firing missiles, first of all, to Ukraine, it's been a very tough week there, and he said, “maybe he is just tapping me,” talking about Putin, “and has to be dealt with differently,” and then talked about sanctions.

What does that tell you?

SULLIVAN: Look, the major kind of fundamental fallacy that I've seen from the president coming in, in the first hundred days is that Ukraine is responsible for this war, and Ukraine is responsible for stopping this war. And that has it upside down.

Russia started this war, not Ukraine. And it's Russia, Vladimir Putin in particular, who's the main obstacle to getting a ceasefire. And there have been moments when it seems like President Trump might have gotten that. Today may be one of those moments.

Unfortunately, every time there's a glimmer of recognition that Putin's responsible, President Trump snaps back and puts all the pressure on Ukraine and makes more concessions to Russia. I hope that doesn't happen again.

RADDATZ: He – he does say – President Trump often says, look, Ukraine has no cards to play. What cards do they have to play at this point? You know how public opinion is.

SULLIVAN: Well, first, if you look at public opinion in the United States, you see a strong bipartisan majority that still supports standing behind Ukraine and very much opposed to throwing them under the bus and siding with Vladimir Putin. That's number one.

Number two, if the United States continued to supply intelligence and weapons, continued to squeeze Russia with sanctions, continued to keep the unity of the transatlantic alliance, I think Putin would ultimately recognize, he cannot achieve his objectives in Ukraine. But by instead making a series of concessions to Russia and telling Ukraine we may cut you off, it’s given Putin the opening, not only to keep this war going, but to potentially get a better deal than he should get by any rights or that he would get if we, in fact, sided with Ukraine, as we should.

RADDATZ: Look, it – when you were a national security advisor, the Biden administration went nowhere with this, with – with trying sanctions with trying – you didn't engage with Russia. So, now you're saying, it’s OK to engage with Russia. When you look back, would you have done something differently?

SULLIVAN: Well, first of all, we did engage with Russia. We had multiple channels to talk to the Russians, and we talked to them through –

RADDATZ: But certainly not in the way they are now.

SULLIVAN: No, because one of the things we recognized while we were in office was that Putin was, at that time, not prepared to come to the table to do a deal that would generate a just peace for Ukraine.

So, we recognized we had to actually build more leverage for Ukraine. And in the closing months in office. We surged military equipment, we tightened sanctions, we seized the proceeds of Russian assets, and we got Europe to come along with us and all of that.

So, we handed off to the new team quite a bit of leverage for Ukraine to get a good deal at the table. I hope they do not end up squandering that leverage.

RADDATZ: I want to ask you, big picture, before I get to Iran, and that is, you really have kept fairly quiet about the Trump administration, but how would you characterize the first hundred days?

SULLIVAN: Part of the reason that I've stayed quiet is because I didn't want to be a backseat driver. When I was in the seat, I had a lot of backseat drivers. But when you see the car start careening towards the cliff, you got to say something.

And what I've seen, in less than a hundred days, is terrible damage to America's credibility and trust with our friends and allies and terrible damage to America's appeal in terms of our political system, our markets, and our innovation.

And most of all, what I've seen is China reaping the benefits.

RADDATZ: I want to ask you about Iran because they say they have made progress on some sort of deal with Iran, saying they – they can't get a nuclear weapon, but we've made progress. He, of course, ripped that up when he first came into office after the 2016 election.

Do you – do you see hope there that they can settle something?

SULLIVAN: Look, when we left office and handed the Iran file off, Iran was at its weakest point since the 1980s, maybe since the Iranian Revolution in 1979. They'd lost their main proxy, Hezbollah. They'd lost their air defenses. We had defended Israel twice directly against Iranian missile attacks and shown that Iran couldn't really do serious damage to Israel.

So, the conditions were ripe for diplomacy and for a deal. And I think there is a possibility that they could get a deal. I think that deal, in its elements, won't look too different from the deal that President Obama and Secretary Kerry produced in the Obama administration that Donald Trump ripped up. And I will find it very interesting to see a lot of the critics of that deal come out in support of what Trump produces. But I myself believe there should be a diplomatic solution here, and I believe there's one achievable.

RADDATZ: Just finally quickly, is there anything you believe the Trump administration has done right in foreign policy?

SULLIVAN: It's hard in 100 days to come up with a good example of that. I mean, there are things where they have taken forward what we had in motion.

RADDATZ: Immigration?

SULLIVAN: Yes, I mean, they've done some things on immigration. But honestly, when you balance it against giving no due process to people and send them to – sending them to El Salvadorian prisons, that damage is so much greater than what they've been able to achieve.

I think there are certain steps with respect to the Houthis that I could really get behind. You know, we took military action against the Houthis. They have stepped that up. I still believe that we need to connect that to a larger strategic end game with the Houthis. But that would be an area where I think there's been some continuity.

RADDATZ: Speaking of the Houthis, you have certainly followed the Signal chats with your successor, Mike Waltz, accidentally giving that away to a reporter, but also what Pete Hegseth texted on those Signal chats about launching F-18s and what hour they would be launched in attacks on Yemen. Is there any – do you believe those should be classified messages?

SULLIVAN: Look, I think you've heard from intelligence professionals across the board that that's classified information. But it points up a larger issue, which is, a close friend and adviser of Secretary Hegseth’s left Hegseth’s Pentagon and wrote an article saying the Pentagon is total chaos and Donald Trump should replace Pete Hegseth. That is a clarion call if I've ever heard one.

So, this Signal issue is one example among many of the kinds of steps we've seen in 100 days at the Pentagon that raise real questions about the future of that building and the future of our armed forces. And that's not me saying that. That's his own friends and advisers.

RADDATZ: OK. Thanks. It's very good to see you. Thanks.

SULLIVAN: Thank you.

RADDATZ: And coming up, a report card on President Trump’s first 100 days and more from our new poll.

We’ll be right back.(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RADDATZ: President Trump marks 100 days in office this week. Donna Brazile and Reince Priebus are standing by with a lot to say about that.

We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RADDATZ: As we approach the 100-day mark of President Trump's second term, who better to break it down than our contributors, former DNC Chair Donna Brazile, and former RNC chair and Trump White House Chief of Staff Reince Priebus, former chief of staff, we should say.

And, Reince, I want to start with you.

A hundred days not so looking so good for President Trump. Our new poll, which we've talked about extensively, President Trump has the lowest approval rating of any president at this point in office going back to Harry Truman.

People are worried about a recession. His polling is under water on every single issue.

REINCE PRIEBUS, FORMER RNC CHAIR & FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF & ABC NES POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think it's important to know -- I mean, we’re -- this is a snapshot, and I think we're in the restructuring phase and the disruption phase of the Trump administration -- meaning he promised all of these thing. I mean, is there anything he's doing right now that he didn't promise, whether it’d be immigration, whether it’d be tariffs. Obviously, unleashing energy --

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: I think probably back and forth on tariffs.

PRIEBUS: But there's some good news, too. Inflation is down. Rates are down. Gas prices are down.

I think what you're going to see, and I think what was revealing in Scott Bessent's interview, is the next 100 days, which is the rebuilding 100 days, which is cutting deals on the tariffs, which is calming people down as far as where we're going in the economy, the tax cuts that are probably likely coming to the economy.

I think the one thing you can say about President Trump is that he's doing exactly what he said he was going to do. And a lot of politicians make promises, they don't keep ‘em, and he's keeping every single one of them. Some people don't like some of the tariff talk, but, it's going to come around.

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: Well, there's a reason for that, Reince.

PRIEBUS: It’s going to come around.

RADDATZ: Go ahead, Donna.

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: There was one promise I believe he made to the American people, the reason he had a larger, more diverse coalition that supported him in 2024, and that is he promised to lower prices of groceries.

RADDATZ: Day one. Day one.

BRAZILE: Day one. Gas. Rent. That is a betrayal.

The – the – he’s crushing dreams and aspirations of people. Small businesses. Men and women who are still struggling to make ends meet.

So, while the first 100 days may have been about the turbulence of coming back into power, the next 1,300 days, and I don't have the exact number, but they are so crucial to what the future will look like for the United States of America. We have allies who are worried about us. He's instilled fear, not because of retaliation, but people don't know where he stands tomorrow, which is why you have tourists making decisions not to come to the United States.

So, look, I still – I want to hope for the best. I want to hope that this president learns something for his first term when the American people say, no more, that's enough. But right now the American people, through this poll, now they’re giving Democrats a lot of high marks, but they are –

RADDATZ: No, they are not. No, they are not.

BRAZILE: But they are saying – they’re saying –

RADDATZ: Sixty-nine percent think the Democratic Party is not so great and out of touch with people's concerns.

BRAZILE: And that's why many of us are on our knees and got to continue to pray for the Democratic Party, (INAUDIBLE).

PRIEBUS: And that – and that – but that’s because the Democrats are doing things that are highly unpopular, defending DEI, defending the IRS.

BRAZILE: Oh, come on.

PRIEBUS: Defending – defending these – this guy who is in El Salvador, who’s not an American citizen. Look, no one's dreams are being crushed in two and a half months.

BRAZILE: Yes.

PRIEBUS: Prices of gas are down. Inflation is down. Rates are down. You want to take the average of all groceries, you could make one argument that maybe that's up by 0.3 of a percentage point. I don’t think anyone’s dreams are being crushed.

BRAZILE: You're speaking of the last months of the Biden administration. And –

PRIEBUS: And as Scott Bessent said, the Nasdaq is up in April.

Look, I'm not going to sit – I'm not to sit – I did not sit here and say that when you do restructuring and disruption and you rebuild the federal bureaucracy that there wasn't going to be a little pain. We’ve admitted that. But the question is, do you stand up for the working class, or do you stand up for Wall Street? I stand up for the working class.

BRAZILE: But the president’s (INAUDIBLE) –

RADDATZ: But, Reince, you heard that business owner. You heard that business owner there, what he was saying. And – and –

BRAZILE: Yes.

PRIEBUS: Yes, I heard one business owner. And I feel bad for the guy, but –

RADDATZ: We – we’ve talked to more than one business owner, to be clear.

I also want you to look at the court orders. I mean that’s – that’s something that he really didn't talk about in the campaign. And Americans say they think Trump is trying to avoid following court orders. That's new. They don't like it. What do you say?

PRIEBUS: I wouldn't be surprised if the Supreme Court, at some point here soon, issues a decision that says, district courts that are out in the middle of Oregon opining on an executive order in Washington, D.C., have the power to restrict this president. I think this is a problem. I think the president is right that it's a problem. And I think I'm going to be proven correct, and this is going to be stopped in our country that a district court, in the middle of nowhere, has the authority to stop the power that the president has, whether it be over foreign policy, whether it be over whether an illegal immigrant should be here who is a felon. That is within the confines of the presidency.

BRAZILE: But, you know, the last – and, Martha, you know, the first action of the president – I’ll never forget, when I was watching television, I was not there, but to sign – to pardon the J6 people should have told you everything about what Donald Trump thinks about the rule of law and the judicial process.

Look, there is a reason why we have three co-equal branches of government. And the courts play such an important role in our government. And so, for the president to cherry pick which rulings he prefers and which one’s he – or, you know, he's against, that's just not the way it works.

And I want to say something about the Democrats. We're not a perfect party. We – we should never claim to be perfect. But we will stand and defend the rule of law. We will defend poor people, veterans. And we will defend those intrinsic values that make us all uniquely American. And that is who we are. And that's why Hakeem Jeffries and Cory Booker are sitting on the steps of the Capitol (INAUDIBLE) later today.

RADDATZ: Reince, I want to you – we just have about 40 seconds left here. But immigration was Trump's best issue in our poll, even though under water on that. And a majority of those disapprove of his handling. So, even an issue where he was doing very well on, where he won the election, that is even under water. And there's concern about those deportations. And we have 30 seconds, Reince.

PRIEBUS: Well, I mean it matters who you're – who you’re running – who you’re compared to. I mean all polling, you know, it comes down to who – what – how do you stand as compared to your opponent. And I'm sorry, Donna, but you’re – you know, when the party’s a mess, it's in the toilet, it’s standing for things that people don’t believe in –

BRAZILE: That’s why we won elections in Wisconsin, in Pennsylvania and Iowa.

PRIEBUS: And January 6th – I mean did not the president led almost every rally he had saying he was going to do what he said he was going to do.

RADDATZ: OK, Reince, we’re going to wrap it up on that.

BRAZILE: Have a great day, brother.

RADDATZ: OK. All right. Thanks so much to both of you.

Coming up, what expect as the selection process for the next Pope gets underway. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RADDATZ: A remarkable scene in Rome yesterday as the world celebrated the life and legacy of Pope Francis. As the Catholic Church looks forward to who will lead it next, I'm joined now by ABC News papal contributor, Father James Martin, in Rome.

Good morning to you, Father Martin. I know you were very close with Pope Francis. Tell us what it was like for you yesterday.

FATHER JAMES MARTIN, ABC NEWS PAPAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it was sad. I found it hard not to cry during the coverage that I was helping out with. I was especially moved when they took the casket out for the last time. For me, even in funeral masses of family and friends, that's the most powerful moment. It's a real sense of finality. But, you know, also a great deal of joy seeing how many people turned out, and it's a celebration of his life as well, his life on earth and now his life in heaven.

RADDATZ: So, Father Martin, let's turn to what happens next. I believe the conclave could start maybe May 6th and beyond. Talk a little bit about the drama of that, how that works behind the scenes.

MARTIN: Well, I always tell people if you've seen the movie "Conclave," you have a pretty good sense of what's going to happen. There will be nine days of mourning. They are starting now already with what's called general congregations where they're discussing in general what they want in the next Pope without campaigning, and then eventually, whenever the date is announced, they will go behind locked doors in the Sistine Chapel and continue with the ballots until they find someone that they can agree on, and then behind me from the Sistine Chapel the white smoke will come out and we'll have a new Pope.

RADDATZ: And I did see that movie. There is a lot of drama behind the scenes potentially.

Now, Pope Francis broke with tradition in many ways, championing some progressive stances. It doesn't mean the next pope will be the same and champion those same stances.

MARTIN: That's correct. Even though he appointed the majority of the cardinals, I think it's something like 75 percent or 80 percent, he's usually appointing cardinals from places that he considers to be formerly on the peripheries, as a way of kind of raising up those churches. So just because the cardinal of some far-flung place was appointed by Pope Francis doesn't necessarily mean that he's in lock step with the pope's views.

So, really, anything goes, and the Holy Spirit can lead the cardinals anywhere.

RADDATZ: And talk if you will about who you see as a front runner or several front runners, and what they are like.

MARTIN: Yeah, there's an old Italian expression: entra papa in conclave (ph), enter a possible pope, and esce cardinale, you leave a cardinal.

So, the names that I think are on everybody's lips it's no secret. Cardinal Parolin, the secretary of state. Cardinal Tagle, the dicastery of evangelization. Cardinal Pizzaballa who's in the Holy Land.

All these men have the right combination of assets, holiness, organizational skills, ability to evangelize.

But really, who knows? There's no -- from what I'm hearing -- there's no front runners. That's just what I'm hearing kind of unofficially.

RADDATZ: And -- and talk a little bit about this transition period. We've -- we've had this celebration of the life of Pope Francis, he was a beloved pope by many. How is that transition for the faithful? What do they look for? How does it feel to go from one pope to another?

MARTIN: There's a very dramatic scene in conclave where John Lithgow says “sede vacante”, the seat is vacant.

And there's a sense of kind of a transition, of course, but also suspension. It was very interesting in mass this Sunday when we usually read out in the Eucharistic prayer the name of Francis our pope. There was no name mentioned.

So that's just -- it's kind of disconcerting for people. People are at once mourning Pope Francis but also excited or maybe concerned -- hopeful I should say -- about who the next pope will be.

RADDATZ: We will all be watching that so closely.

Father Martin, we appreciate your time this morning and all this week. Thank you.

And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RADDATZ: That's all for us today. Be sure to tune in for that exclusive interview with President Trump Tuesday night with our own Terry Moran. And we'll have full coverage of Trump's first 100 days all week across ABC News.

Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us, and have a great day.