'This Week' Transcript 5-18-25: Special Envoy Steve Witkoff, Sen. Rand Paul and Rep. Ro Khanna

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, May 18, 2022 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" ANCHOR: Trump on the world stage. The president is set to talk to Vladimir Putin tomorrow, trying to jump-start Russia-Ukraine peace talks.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I just hope that Russia and Ukraine are able to do something because it has to stop.

KARL: As he pushes for a nuclear deal with Iran.

TRUMP: I think we're getting close to maybe doing a deal.

KARL: We'll talk to the man at the center of both negotiations, special envoy Steve Witkoff, a THIS WEEK exclusive.

Oil rich Arab nations roll out the red carpet as the president announces business initiatives --

TRUMP: We are going to be your friend and we're going to be your partner.

KARL: But Trump faces backlash at home over the luxury jumbo jet offered as a gift by Qatar to be the new Air Force One.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): This is not just naked corruption. It is also a grave national security threat.

KARL: Could Congress block the move? I'll ask Republican Senator Rand Paul.

New concerns over what many said was President Biden's mental decline. Did his inner circle shield his true state from the public?

REP. RO KHANNA, (D-CA): Obviously, he should not have run. Obviously, there should have been an open primary.

KARL: 2024 Biden campaign ally Congressman Ro Khanna is here.

Plus, the roundtable on all the week's politics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC NEWS, it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK.

We'll get to President Trump on the world stage in a moment, but we begin with what authorities are calling an intentional act of terrorism.

ABC's chief investigative correspondent Aaron Katersky has the very latest on an explosion Saturday outside a fertility clinic in Palm Springs, California.

Good morning, Aaron. What do we know?

AARON KATERSKY, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: John, good morning to you.

This blast was so powerful that at first people in Palm Springs thought this might have been an earthquake, but then they quickly saw the flames and smoke and damage from what appears to have been a car bomb. It exploded right outside a fertility clinic, American Reproductive Centers, which said nobody from its staff was hurt and the eggs, embryos and other reproductive materials in its lab are secure and undamaged.

One person is dead. Law enforcement sources told ABC News it’s believed to be the suspect. Investigators were seen searching a location connected to the attack.

IVF has become entangled in the political debate over reproductive rights. And the FBI said the clinic was targeted in an intentional act of terrorism. Investigators also found, Jon, recording equipment, a camera, and tripod, suggesting that perhaps the attack was meant to be either recorded or live streamed to make some kind of a political statement.

KARL: And, Aaron, what is the Justice Department saying about this?

KATERSKY: We heard from Attorney General Pam Bondi. She told us in a statement, “We are working to learn more.” But she said, “Let me be clear, the Trump administration understands that women and mothers are the heartbeat of America. Violence against a fertility clinic is unforgivable.”

President Trump has pledged to expand access to IVF, but he has faced backlash from some in the Christian conservative movement who are opposed to the loss of embryos during the process.

Jon.

KARL: All right, Aaron, thank you.

We turn now to Donald Trump's first major overseas trip as the 47th president. A visit to the three wealthiest monarchies in the Arab world, where he was greeted like royalty. And while President Trump came home to a double dose of bad news in Washington with hardline Republicans attacking his budget bill and the Supreme Court extending its ban on the use of the Alien Enemies Act for deportations, he made some bold moves on the world stage this week.

He secured the release of Edan Alexander, the last remaining American hostage held in Gaza, after engaging in direct talks with Hamas, bypassing the Israelis. He talked about making a deal with Iran to open economic ties in exchange for dismantling the Iranian nuclear program. He lifted sanctions on Syria, and he met with the country's new president, a man who not long ago was considered a jihadist with ties to al Qaeda.

Some of these moves made fellow Republicans uneasy. Some may have made the Israelis uneasy. But they represent an effort to reset policy in a region badly in need of a policy reset. And he’s won praise from some unexpected sources.

Take a listen to what the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Jim Himes, had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): And I got to tell you, I think the president has, in this last week or so, played the Middle East pretty darn well.

I'm not in the habit of praising this president, but I got to give him some kudos there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: The trip, however, was overshadowed at times by questions surrounding the Trump family's business interests in the Middle East and concerns over his administration’s plans to accept a $400 million luxury Boeing 747-8 jumbo jet as a gift from the royal family of Qatar. A plan first reported here on ABC News. Even some of the president's allies called the move unwise and questioned whether it’s legal.

Beyond the Middle East, this week marked the first significant direct talks between Russia and Ukraine. Although Putin himself was a no-show, President Trump says he'll speak to the Russian leader tomorrow.

And after the first 100 days that shook up the domestic order in the United States, Trump is now trying to shake up the world order.

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KARL (voice over): President Trump came to the Middle East pronouncing what you might call the Trump doctrine, there are no true friends or enemies, just economic interests. When previous American presidents talked of spreading American values, democracy and human rights, Trump offered a different vision.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Far too many American presidents have been afflicted with the notion that it’s our job to look into the souls of foreign leaders and use U.S. policy to dispense justice for their sins.

KARL (voice over): He basked in an extravagant and luxurious reception in the Islamic world as he heaped praise on the leaders of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, and the massive investments they’ve promised to make in the United States.

TRUMP: They have a lot of money. And I want them to spend the money in the United States.

KARL (voice over): It’s a reset of American policy and a reset for Donald Trump, who promised a ban on Muslims coming into the United States as a key pillar of his first campaign.

Fast-forward to this week, Trump made his first public visit to a mosque, touring the Sheikh Zayed Grand Mosque in the UAE.

TRUMP: It is so beautiful. Very proud of my friends. This is an incredible culture.

KARL (voice over): Trump's trip got underway with a royal welcome in Saudi Arabia. He was escorted by military jets in the air, and Arabian horses on the ground. And he received a warm greeting from the Saudi Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman, who he showered with compliments in return.

TRUMP: Well, I like him a lot. I like him too much, that's why we give so much, you know?

KARL (voice over): President Trump met with former rebel leader turned new president of Syria, Ahmed al-Sharaa. The first meeting between a U.S. and Syrian leader in 25 years.

The president announced he would be lifting sanctions on Syria.

TRUMP: The sanctions were brutal and crippling and served as an important -- really an important function nevertheless at the time, but now it’s their time to shine.

KARL (voice over): Throughout the trip, Trump talked about his push for a nuclear deal with Iran. On Friday, he announced that a proposal had been given to the Iranians, while taking a carrot and stick approach.

TRUMP: Iran wants to trade with us, OK, if you can believe that. And I'm OK with it. I'm using trade to settle scores and to make peace.

KARL (voice over): He suggested Iran faces a choice, a deal with the United States or a military strike on its nuclear facilities.

TRUMP: It’s either going to be done nicely or it’s going to be done violently.

KARL (voice over): Amidst all the fanfare of Trump’s journey, concerns about conflicts of interest and national security risks, too. As ABC News first reported, Trump wants a luxury Boeing 747-8 jumbo jet as a gift to the administration from the royal family of Qatar. Estimated to be worth some $400 million. The aircraft so extravagant, it’s been called the flying palace.

Trump, this week, repeatedly brushed aside concerns over the plane.

TRUMP: I would never be one to turn down that kind of an offer. I mean, I could be a stupid person and say, no, we don't want a free very expensive airplane.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL (on camera): I'm joined now by the man at the center of negotiations with Iran, Russia and more, President Trump's special envoy, Steve Witkoff.

Mr. Witkoff, good morning and thank you for joining us.

Let me start right with the news we reported, which is that President Trump plans to speak by phone tomorrow with Vladimir Putin. Do you expect this call will lead to direct negotiations between President Trump, President Putin and President and President Zelenskyy, in person negotiations?

STEVE WITKOFF, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY TO THE MIDDLE EAST: Look, Jon, we had some -- we had direct negotiations in Istanbul. There were some good achievements made, including the release of hostages. We have to get to a ceasefire. That’s the -- that’s the president’s position, and we all agree with that position. And most importantly, we have to get to a final peace deal. And the president has a force of personality that is unmatched.

I think it’s important, his sensibilities are, that he’s got to get on the phone with President Putin, and that is going to clear up some of the logjam and get us to the place that we need to get to. And I think it’s going to be a very successful call.

KARL: What did you make of Putin's not going to Istanbul? I mean, President Trump even offered to adjust his trip to be there himself. Why was it, do you think, that Putin decided not to go?

WITKOFF: Look, I don’t want to comment on his motivations. I think, in some respects, it may have something to do with the delegation that he had sent to the original Istanbul talks. But those were certain -- those were different circumstances back then, as compared to today.

I want to leave it to -- I want to be a bit more positive about this. I believe that the president is going to have a successful call with Vladimir Putin. They know each other. The president is determined to get something done here. And hopefully, if he can’t do it, than nobody can.

So, I leave it to the two leaders to have that call.

KARL: Vice President Vance said recently that the Russians, quote, “Are asking for too much.”

Is that in your assessment of where we are right now? Is Putin asking for too much?

WITKOFF: My assessment is that this is a very complicated conflict that shouldn’t have happened. I completely agree with President Trump in that regard.

And, you know, you’ve got people who are at each other. There’s a lot of emotion, a lot of hatred, and the carnage has to end. And so, I think in a negotiation like this, people take positions. The art, the elegance of it, and the president is the master at this. I've said many times that I follow his tactics because they work. The art here is to narrow those -- that, you know, wide berth between the parties.

And I think, to some extent, we’ve done that. To some extent, each party is, you know, staking out their positions. And I think Monday will go a long way towards identifying where we are and how we complete this negotiation.

KARL: OK, and then we have the other major set of negotiations with Iran. Can you give us -- give us the sense of what is the outline of the deal that President Trump wants to get with Iran?

WITKOFF: Well, the president has been very clear. He wants to solve this conflict diplomatically and with dialogue. And he’s given -- he’s given all the signals. He has directly sent letters to the supreme leader. I have been dispatched to deliver that message as well, and I've delivered it.

And, on the other hand, we have one very, very clear red line, and that is enrichment. We cannot allow even 1 percent of an enrichment capability. We’ve delivered a proposal to the Iranians that we think addresses some of this without disrespecting them. And so, that’s important.

We’re -- we want to -- we want to get to a solution here. And we think that we will be able to. But everything begins for our -- from our standpoint, Jon, with a deal that does not include enrichment. We cannot have that. Because enrichment enables weaponization, and we will not allow a bomb to get here.

But, short of that, there are all kinds of ways for us to achieve our goals in this negotiation. We think that we will be meeting sometime this week in Europe. And we hope that it will lead to some real positivity. And that’s where we are, sir.

KARL: And another thing that the president said on this trip, he was very direct in his statement about the people of Gaza, Palestinians in Gaza, who he said are starving, and about getting aid and support. We have to help the Palestinians, he said.

Is the president -- are you pushing the Israelis to allow that aid to come in and to hold back on some of the offensive operations that continue to be ongoing in Gaza?

WITKOFF: The president, Jon, is a humanitarian. And I think that any -- everyone is concerned about the humanitarian conditions in Gaza.

That said, it is a very complicated situation there. Logistically, we are -- I don’t think there’s any daylight between President Trump’s position and Prime Minister Netanyahu's position. The issue now is -- I think the issue now is, how do we logistically get all of those trucks into Gaza? How do we set up the aid stations? There are many things -- initiatives that we are working on to address this. There -- there are going to be mobile kitchens that are going to be sent in there. The flour -- we have trucks with flour waiting at the border. The Israelis have indicated that they’re going to begin to allow a lot more of these trucks to get in.

But it is complicated. It is logistically complicated. And the conditions on the ground are dangerous. There are still many unexploded shells all over the place. So, we have to be mindful of that.

But that said, we do not want to see a humanitarian crisis, and we will not allow it to occur on President Trump’s watch.

KARL: And -- and before you go, I've got to ask you about that 747 that the Qataris have offered as a gift to be used as a new Air Force One. Do you have any concerns about this? I mean what -- what do the Qataris expect in return for a $400 million present, you know, essentially to the United States?

WITKOFF: Well, first of all, Jon, it’s a perfectly legal transaction. It’s been vetted by the White House counsel, by the Justice Department. There are outside law firms involved. So, it’s a perfectly legal, government to government, Department of Defense, to Department of Defense transaction that happens in the normal course and has been happening in the normal course throughout -- throughout our existence. Governments exchange services. In this case, the president has done an incredible array, you’ve -- you’ve witnessed it now in the Middle East, but it -- it began when he was first inaugurated. He’s done an incredible array of wonderful deals, and created all kinds of opportunities for this country, for our economy, for the growth of our economy, and everything is always with the mind of doing something good for the American public, for the American taxpayer.

This is another example. They decided to donate something because of all the wonderful things that we’ve done for them in the past. And in addition to that, they then, on top of that, announced $1.2 trillion worth of investments into the United States of America, which will create jobs and do all kinds of wonderful things.

So, I don’t really -- I'm not sure how anyone would see this as the Qataris looking to gain some sort of advantage. We -- we have an advantage because of their largess (ph) and looking -- and their -- them looking to invest in our country. And I think that’s -- all of that is to be commended.

KARL: All right, Steve Witkoff, the president’s --

WITKOFF: And again, Jon --

KARL: Yes.

WITKOFF: And again, Jon --

KARL: Yes.

WITKOFF: Yes, I just want to say, this is to the benefit of the United States of America that -- that donation. So, it -- it just has to be seen as that way.

KARL: All right, Steve Witkoff, the president’s special envoy, thank you for your time.

All right, I'm joined now by Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky.

Senator Paul, let me start right there.

So, we heard from Steve Witkoff. I know you’ve raised concerns about this gift of this Qatari jet. He says the Qataris are giving it simply because they’ve decided to donate something, because of all the wonderful things that we’ve done for them in the past.

Do you buy that, that the Qataris don't expect anything in return for a $400 million gift?

SEN. RAND PAUL, (R) KENTUCKY & HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE CHAIR: I guess, you know, first of all, I think my fear is that it detracts from a largely successful trip where the president is talking about opening up and doing more trade with the Middle East, which is a good thing, particularly amidst all the protectionism and directing away from trade that we’ve had going on.

I would say that we sell more arms than any other country in the world. We are the largest arms merchant in the entire world. And a lot of those arms go to Gulf sheikhdoms and monarchies like the Qataris. Those decisions are made by the executive branch. We have a veto power in Congress, and I've been part of vetoing -- or trying to veto arms before to Qatar, as well as to Saudi Arabia, over human rights abuses.

So, could it color the perception of the administration if they have a $400 million plane to be more in favor of these things? Perhaps. It at least gives the appearance of a conflict of interest. I don’t think it’s worth the headache. And I think it’s detracting from a largely successful trip to the Middle East, which includes a lot of good things as far as expanding trade.

KARL: He also said it's a perfectly legal transaction. Do you see -- do you see it that way? I know you raised questions about the Emoluments Clause.

PAUL: I think it sort of depends on how the transaction is set up. Is there a possibility that, you know, could they donate it back to Boeing and Boeing sells it to -- there's a lot of ways this could be arranged. But I think what set up signals that people were concerned about was that it was going to be temporarily part of the government, and then it was going to the president's library when the president retires.

So, I think all of those things could be fixed, could be corrected. There probably is a perfectly legal way, but right now, it's raised more questions than I think it's worth.

KARL: Okay, Senator, let me turn to tariffs. The president also announced a temporary reduction to those big China tariffs, although there’s still 30 percent tariffs on goods coming in from China as he negotiates -- tries to negotiate a new deal.

Walmart has warned that this will result in higher prices.

What's your assessment?

PAUL: Well, tariffs are taxes, and when you put a tax on a business, it's always passed through as a cost. So, there will be higher prices.

And I think this is what's important to know. People talk about, oh, this is America versus China. The U.S. doesn't trade with China. You trade with Walmart, or you trade with Target, or you trade with Amazon. Americans go in and buy a product.

Now, it might come from China, but think about it this way -- think of the entire trade with China was all TVs. A million people go to Walmart. They all buy a TV. They like the quality. They like the price, and it happened to come from China.

But then you draw a circle around China and the U.S., and you say, oh, my goodness, it's a trade deficit. We buy all of our TVs from over there. But each individual transaction -- each individual who bought a TV was happy. But how can you draw a circle around a million happy people and say they all got ripped off?

So, there is an economic fallacy here, and the fallacy is that trade deficits actually mean anything. They're an artificial accounting.

The only trade that means anything is the individual who buys something. That's the only real trade. And that by very definition, if it's voluntary, is mutually beneficial, or the trade doesn't occur.

KARL: So, yeah, let me -- I want to play something that President Trump said just recently, specifically talking about our trade deficit with Canada. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Why are we subsidizing Canada $200 billion a year? Or whatever the number might be, it's a very substantial number. And it's hard for the American taxpayer to say, gee whiz, we love doing that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: So, the actual trade deficit with Canada is actually a little less than -- or quite a bit less than a hundred billion. But even so, is a trade deficit subsidizing Canada?

PAUL: No, they're really not related at all. What happens if we trade with another country because they have less expensive goods is we become richer. You also have more money that you can spend.

So, let's say you're an average American and you shop at Walmart, you save about $4,000 or $5,000 a year because you're able to purchase goods that are important from other countries.

What do you do with that? I don't know, maybe you go to Disneyworld, maybe you go to Dollywood. You know, you go -- you can -- you spend a lot of it in America, maybe you get somebody to cut your grass. There's all kinds of things that happens to that extra money, but you are richer because you've gotten a product at a lower cost.

And this is what the marketplace does. It drives prices down and it pushes efficiency, but it isn't one country against another. All of that is an artificial accounting.

We've had a trade deficit with China ever since 1976, and yet we got richer and they got richer.

This is the other fallacy they put forward. They say, oh, the middle class is being hollowed out. If you look at the middle class over 70 years, the middle class is about the same as it was 70 years ago.

The one segment of our economy that has grown is those making over $100,000 a year, and that has tripled. So, most of the middle class -- if the middle class shrunk at all -- actually went to an upper class, if you say upper class begins at $100,000.

So, most of this is just fallacy. We have gotten rich, rich, rich off of trade. All Americans, and it is lifting all boats, and we are richer than we’ve ever been in any time in our history, but it's not easy to convince people of that because there are short-term problems where you have inflation like during the last four years where the middle class actually did lose purchasing power and did get poorer.

But if you look at it in the long term, it's not trade causing this. The thing that makes us poorer, if anything, would be inflation and the general rise of prices from inflation.

KARL: And before you go, there are several lawsuits challenging these tariffs. The Constitution clearly gives Congress the power to impose taxes, to impose duties.

What is your -- are these tariffs legal? Do you think these law -- do you think they'll be get knocked down? And will Congress -- as you suggested, will Congress grow a spine and assert its control over taxation?

PAUL: I think a strict interpretation of the Constitution says that taxes originate in Congress. And, more specifically, taxes originate in the House. They have to start in the House first before they come to the Senate.

Now, we do have a long history, though, of both parties abdicating their responsibility on tariffs and granting power to Congress, which brings up another constitutional question, can Congress delegate powers given to it under the Constitution to the president?

In the past, the court has allowed these things, but I think it'll be an interesting thing because most tariffs in our history have been passed by Congress. We've never had widespread tariffs that have been done by fiat by a president, and I object to that.

KARL: All right. Senator Rand Paul, thank you for joining us this morning.

Coming up, why is California Congressman Ro Khanna holding town halls this weekend in Republican districts in Pennsylvania? That and new questions from Democrats about Joe Biden.

We're back in two minutes.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): I have spoken with the president. He is fully coherent. He is on top of details when I have talked just a couple weeks ago.

I just saw the president two weeks ago on a rope line. He was very sharp. He was humorous, engaging with members, remembering members by name.

You can't say he's the same person as he was. You've got to say, look, he has wisdom, he has experience, he has the right values.

It's his decision about what he wants to do, and I trust him. I trust his patriotism to make the right decision.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

KARL: That was California Congressman Ro Khanna defending President Biden last year.

Congressman Khanna joins me now from Pennsylvania, where he's hosting town hall meetings this weekend.

Okay, we're going to get to Biden in a second, but before we do, I want to ask you about the president's trip to the Middle East, specifically the big push he is making to get a new nuclear deal with Iran.

Should Democrats be supporting President Trump on this?

KHANNA: Yes, I appreciate that he's trying to get peace there. Look, I supported President Obama when he did the deal with Iran, and those of us who supported that should support President Trump.

I'm also glad that he's speaking out about getting aid into Gaza. The reality, though, is, as you know, that aid is conditional on Palestinians moving to the south of Gaza. And all of the aid groups are saying that's not enough. We should get the aid unconditional on forcing Palestinians to move down south, and I hope he's going to put pressure on Netanyahu to do that.

KARL: Well, I did ask that of Steve Witkoff. He said they're not going to let a humanitarian catastrophe happen in Gaza. Some would say it's already happening, and has been happening for a while. We will see.

But let me ask you about what your fellow Democrat in the House, Jim Himes, said. He said, overall, on this trip, President Trump, quote, "Played the Middle East pretty darn well."

Do you agree with that?

KHANNA: I appreciate that he's trying to get a deal with Iran. I don't like the fact that the biggest A.I. center, research center, is going to be in Dubai. I mean, what happened to America first? Why don't we put that center in Pennsylvania or in Ohio? Especially Western Pennsylvania, that's a place that's looking to get massive data centers, and that would create a lot of jobs.

Now, I'm all for collaboration, selling more into our allies in the Middle East, but we should be focused on putting the new technology jobs in the United States.

KARL: OK. Let's turn to President Biden. We heard you and -- just a few moments ago, consistently defending the president as he was facing all those questions about his mental fitness, his age, back when he was still president and still the Democratic nominee. Do you think you got it wrong last year?

KHANNA: Yes. Look, the Democratic Party needs to be honest. There's a sense that people want honesty. They want to restore a sense of public service. In light of what has come out, it's painfully obvious President Biden should not have run. People who say, well, let's talk about the future. We've got to build the credibility about that to be able to talk about the future and improving Americans' lives.

Let me tell you the lesson I learned. We played too much deference to party leaders, to the old guard, to the advisers. We needed to be more independent and push back. I'm known to be independent. I co-chaired Bernie Sanders's campaign, and I'm going to be more independent going forward, calling for primary challenges when they're appropriate, making sure we don't have Super PACs in Democratic primaries. But that was the lesson that I learned.

KARL: Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson argue in their new book -- and let's look at the title. It's called "Original Sin: President Biden's Decline, Its Cover-Up, and His Disastrous Choice to Run Again." They write Biden and those closest to him refuse to admit the reality that his energy, cognitive skills, and communications capacity had faltered considerably, even worse, through various means, they tried to hide it. Is that the way you see it? What -- did we have a cover-up? Was there a cover-up in the Biden White House, a cover-up of his true mental and physical condition?

KHANNA: I don't think it was a cover-up. I don't know. I didn't do the reporting. But I do think that the advisers and people close to Donald -- to Joe Biden owe an explanation. I mean, they were on Zoom calls. They were telling all of us that he is capable, that he is going to be able to make the race. Obviously, that turned out not to be correct.

Now, I do, again, believe that some of us should have pushed back more. I think that that is the lesson that I learned. But they need to show what happened. One possibility is that they kept accommodating, accommodating, accommodating, and didn't realize how much they had accommodated. But that's a question they owe an explanation for.

What I don't think the Democratic Party can do is just say, let's talk about the future. Let's move past this. People in America are fair. You showed all those clips. I didn't realize I made that many appearances on television.

(LAUGH)

KHANNA: People realize that I said, look, I made a mistake. Here's the lesson I learned. I was talking about it based on the information I had, and people are fairly -- but you have to own up before you can move forward.

KARL: Yeah. So, I won't remind you. Well, maybe I will. That you, right after the debate, compared Joe Biden to Rocky Balboa. So, we won't get into that.

(LAUGH)

KHANNA: I still --

KARL: Yeah?

KHANNA: Well, I still think, look, he overcame the loss of his son. He has had a remarkable life. He showed a lot of resilience. I -- that was a question of his character. I still think Joe Biden has a lot to be proud of in his record. The Chips Act to bring semiconductors back. The Inflation Reduction Act to set up clean tech. The fact that we got out of COVID and the economy, and had a strong economic recovery, and he has a lot of resilience in his life, that doesn't mean, though, that he made the right decision to seek a second term.

KARL: OK. You're out in Pennsylvania. You've been holding these "Benefits over Billionaires" town halls. You've got another tonight. I know you're planning at least 10 in Republican districts. What is the -- what's the theory of the case? Why are you out in Republican districts holding these town hall meetings?

KHANNA: Well, it's good to be back in Pennsylvania. I grew up there, catching a Phillies game today. But I was in Allentown and I made a very simple case that the Republican budget is not going to help working class folks. Look, there were Republican Trump protesters at the event who came inside and actually clapped for a few things I said. One, that we should not have cuts in Medicaid.

Josh Hawley has said that the $715 billion Medicaid cuts that are the largest cuts ever to the program are wrong. Trump voters don't want those Medicaid cuts. The Republicans in those districts should vote against him. Number two, I codified. I was the first person to go on the floor to codify Trump's executive order on prescription drugs. We should not, as Americans, be paying more for prescription drugs than people in other parts of the world. Representative Luna and Representative Biggs, two Republicans, are on it. This should be a bipartisan vote. Either you stand with the $16 billion of the pharmaceutical lobbying or you stand with the American people.

KARL: OK.

KHANNA: And, number three, there’s a Mac truck, and I hope -- oh, sorry, go ahead.

KARL: Yes, we're -- we’re really just about out of time, and I've got to ask you just before you go, how seriously are you considering running for president in 2028?

KHANNA: I'm focused on getting the House back. All my travels are in the -- in Republican swing districts. But I do believe that the -- and I'm focused on a Democratic Party really having a working class economic agenda. I call it economic patriotism. If you look at the Allentown town hall, you'll see Trump voters were responding to that. That's what we’ve got to do. We’ve got to figure out, how do we get back places of -- where we have struggled in places like Allentown.

KARL: OK. It sounds like a definite maybe.

Ro Khanna, thank you very much for joining us.

Coming up, the Supreme Court defies President Trump yet again.

We'll be right back.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. CHIP ROY (R-TX): I have to now admonish my colleagues on this side of the aisle. This bill falls profoundly short. It does not do what we say it does with respect to deficits. We are writing checks we cannot cash. And our children are going to pay the price. So, I am a no on this bill unless serious reforms are made today, tomorrow, Sunday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Can President Trump's budget bill get past hardline conservatives like Congressman Chip Roy?

I'll be right back with the roundtable.

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KARL: Let's bring in the roundtable. Former DNC chair, Donna Brazile, former RNC chair, Reince Priebus, editor at the SCOTUSBlog, Sarah Isgur, and former Bernie Sanders campaign manager, Faz Shakir.

Okay. Reince, the president puts a statement out as he's flying back from the Middle East saying that Republicans have to get in line behind this -- the big, beautiful budget bill. And then it gets voted down by Republicans in the Budget Committee. What happened?

REINCE PRIEBUS, ABC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I met with -- I actually met with several members of Congress this week, and just some of them said, I'm going to vote no initially, but I'm going to eventually vote yes. And the two things that they want to see --

KARL: That's not what Chip Roy sounded.

PRIEBUS: Well, and I'll tell you what? I think the two things that they want are work requirements and welfare programs. They want -- they want to get rid of some of these green energy subsidies.

Ultimately, it's a -- it is a trillion -- over a trillion dollar bill, massive tax cuts. This is not something that can get rushed through.

But this is the issue when you have almost 95 percent of members of Congress live in 80 percent majority districts. There -- all they have to do is placate to their own party. That's what Chip Roy is doing.

And eventually, most of these folks are going to back this bill and it's going to pass. The big, beautiful bill will happen.

DONNA BRAZILE, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: The big, beautiful betrayal.

Look, when you have Senator Josh Hawley say that it is -- and I'm going to quote it -- morally wrong and politically suicidal, you know what? It's also bad math. I mean, to add almost $2.5 trillion to the deficit over 10 years, reduce revenue by $4 trillion over 10 years, to take 13.7 million people off of Medicaid, the harm that we're going to do to our health care system -- it's a big, bold, beautiful betrayal to the American people.

KARL: And, Faiz, do we -- do you really think Republicans are going to sign off on a multi-trillion dollar increase to the debt ceiling?

FAIZ SHAKIR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: They did it before. So, they probably will do it again, sadly, because there's no morality on their -- on their part.

But when you look at when they passed in 2017, 2018, the effects of that were huge stock buybacks, corporations got the tax reduct -- reduced from 35 to 21 at the time. Over the next year, after it passed, in 2017, you had a trillion dollars in stock buybacks.

When you wonder wealth and income inequality in America, why do 1 percent own more than 93 percent of American public, this is why. The tax benefit -- the tax oligarchic regime they're offering would give people over -- making over $500,000, the $1 trillion of the benefit of this package.

And if you're under $50,000 you're working poor, you see less money. You actually have reduced income as a result of this.

KARL: You know, it's interesting though, Sarah, that there are some on the right -- I mean, Steve Bannon has been beating the drum on this but Trump himself has expressed some openness to the idea of actually increasing the rate at the -- at the of the most of the wealthiest, a tax increase. I think Trump even called it redistribution.

Is there any chance that there is a populist compromise?

SARAH ISGUR, SCOTUSBLOG EDITOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely. I mean, the rate is now in favor of price controls. They just use different words for them. This is a bizarre political choice by this administration when you're more than a hundred days in, where's the legislation on immigration, on this DEI stuff that the president has gotten a lot of credit for among Republicans? That will all disappear in a heartbeat. These are just executive orders that he's doing.

He could go to Congress, he could use his majority in the House and Senate to actually get some of this done. And instead, they're doing this bill, which is a bizarre thing for a Republican to be pushing.

KARL: OK. Let me turn to something else the president said. He, he was very busy on Truth Social on the way back from the Middle East. He also took aim at the Supreme Court of the United States.

SHAKIR: Yeah.

KARL: And this is what he said. I'm just going to read one sentence from his thing. He said, "The Supreme Court of the United States is not allowing me to do what I was elected to do." And in fact, one of the things that the Supreme Court has done, just this was late Friday, I believe, was to say -- seven-to-two was to say that these deportations under the Alien Enemies Act remain on pause. They're stopped while the legal challenges are heard. Is the Supreme Court turning against Trump?

ISGUR: The Supreme Court, including the conservative members of that court, are becoming increasingly clear to quote --

KARL: Not two of them -- two of the -- there were two on the other end (ph).

(LAUGH)

ISGUR: That's true. To quote Future Metro Boomin, like we still don't trust you. That is the message they are sending to this administration. So much of that opinion was about not trusting what the administration was telling them. You saw it in the argument about the birthright citizen executive order on Thursday as well that Amy Coney Barrett, for instance, pushing them to say, so wait, you wouldn't follow a Circuit Court opinion? You'd only follow a Supreme Court opinion?

And then Justice Kagan following up and saying, so, why would you ever seek our opinion if that's the only one you would follow if you're losing at all of these lower courts? So, we're really seeing the administration lose that credibility, the presumption of regularity that the Solicitor General's office, the Department of Justice used to get. They're going to have a really hard time getting that back.

KARL: Reince, do you think the frustration with the president, it's not just that tweet. He really thinks that his conservative Supreme Court should rubber stamp what he's doing?

PRIEBUS: Well, I think he does believe that the Supreme Court that he mainly put in place at least --

KARL: Three of them.

PRIEBUS: -- the tipping point, should agree with what he considers to be a conservative principle, which is whether or not a person who came here illegally is a person who is subject to the laws, who is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

ISGUR: That's not the conservative principle.

PRIEBUS: And so, the fact that the matter is he believes that if someone crosses the border, has a baby, they shouldn't be -- they shouldn't be allowed certain protections of due process. Now, what those certain protections are is what the Supreme Court --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: (Inaudible) on that question.

PRIEBUS: No, Supreme Court didn't rule on the principle of the Alien Enemies Act. They ruled on whether or not these people were entitled more notice than what Donald Trump --

(CROSSTALK)

ISGUR: Jon, the principle is whether the president acting alone can change the laws of the United States?

PRIEBUS: No, no, by the way --

ISGUR -- without Congress, without any of our Constitutional process.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: No, no, they didn't rule that. What -- and you asked me what the president was thinking on his tweet. The President is playing smart politics because he's telling the people of the United States that I stand for something that 80 percent of the American people agree on.

KARL: OK.

PRIEBUS: Which is deporting people who are felons.

(CROSSTALK)

SHAKIR: The Supreme Court doesn't do (inaudible), they do the rule of law. The rule of law.

PRIEBUS: He's winning the politics, guys, arguing politics.

(CROSSTALK)

SHAKIR: This is the president at war with the Constitution.

KARL: Well, we're talking about the Constitution is the process. OK. Can we get to Biden?

PRIEBUS: You and no one else.

KARL: Do you mind if I switch (ph) to Biden? So we have this new book out, the Alex Thompson, Jake Tapper book, saying that essentially there was a cover-up of Joe Biden's true mental and physical condition. Faiz, do you -- do you -- is that the way you see it? Was there -- was there a cover-up in the Biden?

SHAKIR: There's certainly an effort to hide him. I mean, when you remember, he -- they didn't do the Super Bowl interview.

KARL: They didn't do two Super Bowl (inaudible).

SHAKIR: And you -- you remember this well, for a long period of time, he didn't do any interviews.

KARL: Yeah.

SHAKIR: I mean, we were told to wait until the first debate. And then, remember after the debate, then ABC got its interview. Right?

KARL: Right.

SHAKIR: And it was a number of people who finally got their interview when it was clean-up time.

KARL: They needed it, yeah.

SHAKIR: Yes. But, for a long period of time, a lot of us who had been allies of the president were told, Hey, he's doing great. Just, you can't hear him, talk to him. You're not going to see him out in public. And so, what do we -- be told except to wait and see what happens in the debate, and we all know how that went.

KARL: Donna?

BRAZILE: Well, first of all, I think the media is going to appear at a reckoning, which often happens after an election. Many of my Democratic colleagues, politicians, want-to-be politicians, presidents, they're going through a period of retrospection, and they will have their opportunity to give their side of the story. I also believe that Joe Biden is a great and honorable public servant. I'm going to stick by Joe Biden. And look, we all -- I don't have the pep in my step that I used to have.

KARL: Oh, Donna.BRAZILE: I've been trying to do boots on the ground all last week. And let me just tell you something, it ain't -- it's not my shoes. There's something going on with my hips. That's OK. Did -- Joe Biden is going to be judged by historians. He will be judged not only by the work that he accomplished, the great incredible laws that were passed, bipartisan, but --

SHAKIR: We would take his presidency over Donald Trump's right now.

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: At the end of the day, Jon --

ISGUR: Where does Rob Hur go to get all the apologies he is owed? He was attacked personally.

KARL: The Special Counsel who investigated his handling -- Trump -- Biden's handling of --

(CROSSTALK)

ISGUR: And said that Joe Biden had a mental acuity problem, so much so that he could not face trial in a criminal trial for concealing classified documents and that he was attacked as partisan. We were told that he was just morally corrupted by the White House, by Democrats in Congress. Where is his apology?

KARL: Reince?

PRIEBUS: First of all, people were put to shame, me and others out there that talked about Joe Biden's mental acuity. We were told he was sharp as a tack, he had a photographic memory. He was intense and brilliant. And what's amazing is the sources of this book were the same sources that told us that we ought to be ashamed of ourselves.

It's a stutter. Stop talking about him. The fact is they were managing his decline in a nursing home in the White House.

KARL: All right. We are out of time. Thank you all very much. Up next, the American Pope holds his inaugural Sunday mass. We'll take you to the Vatican when we come back.

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KARL: The scene this morning in St. Peter's Square as Pope Leo XIV celebrated his inaugural mass. Vice President J.D. Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio, among those in attendance. Let's go to ABC's Maggie Rulli at the Vatican in the middle of it all. Maggie?

MAGGIE RULLI, ABC NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Jon. It was quite a celebration here in St. Peter's Square this morning. The crowd of around 200,000 people in the area was just so full of joy and hope and energy. There was one priest (inaudible) he said, today was the chance for the faithful to meet their Pope and to fall in love with their Pope.

Now, the mass itself was steeped in tradition and just these deeply symbolic moments. The Pope given the symbols of the papacy, that's the (inaudible), the woven vest that he wears that represents the Pope as a shepherd, as well as that fisherman's ring, a signet ring with an image of St. Peter.

And Jon, what I found so fascinating was this juxtaposition of, like centuries-old traditions with the new, a new American Pope, a Pope who's on social media, who speaks English, who loves baseball. I mean, kind of the ultimate American pastime. And it would be really interesting to see, Jon, how that juxtaposition really shapes the Catholic Church going forward.

KARL: The first-ever White Sox fan to be Pope. And before you go, Maggie, Pope Leo is making it clear that he plans to play a big role on the world stage.

RULLI: Yeah, we've already seen him start to do this. The Vatican announced just today that Pope Leo is meeting with President Zelenskyy while he's in town. We also understand that the Holy See has this longstanding offer to host peace talks between Ukraine and Russia. And that's something that just this weekend Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who you mentioned is also here in Vatican City today, has said could be a possibility.

And even during his homily, Pope Leo mentioned that he wanted a just peace in Ukraine as well as prayers for the children of Gaza. So, Jon, he might just be getting started in his papacy, but he's already really taking a leading role in global affairs. And this could be something that shapes his papacy going forward. But we have to make a point, Jon, that it is still early days. We're not really sure what's going to happen. We're just getting these little nuggets of what might happen in the future. But for now, we still have to wait. Jon?

KARL: Today was the inauguration. All right. Thank you, Maggie. We'll be right back.

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KARL: Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight." Have a great day.

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