Chat Transcript: Jewish and Arab Israeli Discuss Recent Violence
Oct. 11, 2000 -- Neighbor vs. neighbor, Israeli vs. Israeli. Recent violence between Israelis and Palestinians has taken an even more complicated twist as clashes between Israeli Jews and Muslim Israeli Arabs becomes increasingly commonplace. Palestinians have blamed Israel for the violence, which first flared after a visit to a Jerusalem holy site revered by Muslims and Jews by Israeli right-wing politician Ariel Sharon. To date, at least 90 people—mostly Palestinians—have been killed since fighting began late last month.
Power brokers U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan and President Clinton are playing central roles in trying to seal a peace deal between Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
Joining us online today in a chat was Dr. Mordechai Bar-On, former chair of the New Israel Fund (a nonprofit group dedicated to funding Israeli grassroots organizations working to build a more just and tolerant Israel) and Jafar Farah, director of Mosawa, the Advocacy Center for Palestinian Citizens of Israel. Below is a transcript of the chat.
Moderator at 11:09am ET
Learn more about the current conflict in the Mideast by going to our special index called A Fractured Peace.
Moderator at 2:05pm ET
Welcome Mr. Farah.
Jafar Farah at 2:08pm ET
My name is Jafar Farah, and I am working for the Mosawa Center, and it means "equality" in Arabic. It's an advocacy center for the Arab-Palestinian citizens in Israel. We are talking about 20% of the population in Israel of Palestinian citizens, about 1 million Palestinians [who], since 1948, are citizens of Israel. Not equal, but we are citizens in our homeland. This organization works with changing governmental policy and political participation, and participation in legislation procedures, and capacity building for NGO's and local councils, capacity building mainly in advocacy. We don't deal with the Israeli courts, we deal more with public policy. We don't go to the courts in any case.
Sandra Tamari at 2:08pm ET
What do you think of Azmi Bishara's demand that the U.N. send in a commission or troops to protect the Palestinian citizens of Israel?
Jafar Farah at 2:09pm ET
It's needed you know. We already have thirteen people killed-- thirteen citizens killed by policemen, and about 530 people injured. Four of them are in a dangerous situation in the hospital. It's needed, yes. All these police were shooting people that participate in demonstrations in villages inside Israel. Civilians, we are talking about. Yes, we need protection. I don't think that anybody will answer to this question, nobody will send any protection to us. But there is a need for international help and support for our struggle. And it's mainly a civil rights struggle.
Arnold Kling from cais.net at 2:10pm ET
What kind of people are the Palestinians? What kind of people cannot accept a visit to a site without staging a violent riot? What kind of people send children out next to armed gunman firing at military posts?
Jafar Farah at 2:13pm ET
The Palestinians are people who are, since 1948, paying the price of the dream of the Jewish people to have independent country. The Palestinians are people that pay the price and live since '48 in refugee camps. The Palestinians are people that want to live in their homeland. More than half of the Palestinians left in '48 with the keys of the doors of their houses. And since that time they are living in refugee camps with the keys to the doors of their houses-- the majority of these houses become now the houses of Jewish people. There are the Palestinians. Nobody sent his children to throw stones. People tried to struggle with stones to defend himself. The Palestinians don't usually have helicopters, don't have F-6, and don't have any serious weapon. The Palestinians are a people that try to solve their problem that was created since '48. And I have to remind that the U.N. decision in '47 was for two countries for two peoples, the Jewish people and the Palestinian people, in the homeland of the Palestinians. This decision was to solve the problem of the Jewish people that suffered from Nazism, and Russism and Fascism in Europe. The Holocaust that the Jewish people suffered from in Europe, we pay the price of it.
Jafar Farah at 2:14pm ET
The Holocaust that the Jewish people were suffering from in Europe was solved mainly by creating a Jewish country for the Jewish people. But it was created on our homeland, Palestine. And now after 52 years, the only possible solution to the conflict is to have two independent countries, one we'll call Israel and one we'll call Palestine. And we the Palestinians inside Israel will still be citizens, will stay here in Israel as citizens. And this is the only possible solution.
Moderator at 2:15pm ET
What makes the latest violence so different from the many other bouts of unrest?
Jafar Farah at 2:17pm ET
Yes this violence is different mainly because of the response of the Israeli government. And also because of the unclear situation of the Middle East. When I say unclear, I mean unclear in the peace process. This 52 years of discrimination, with 52 years of not having peace with the Palestinian people, will arrive to this result, will take us to this result actually. Now this is the difference also, that we are in the middle of peace process, that in the last two years didn't take us anywhere. The situation now that the Israelis have interior discussion, like they discuss the future of the Middle East between themselves--not with partners, [by whom] I mean the Palestinians in Israel, the Palestinians on the West Bank, and also the Palestinians in refugee camps in Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt.
M.L.Wheeler from dialup.mindspring.com at 2:19pm ET
Mr. Farah, if the U.N. sent forces and those forces came under fire from protesters and those U.N. forces killed Palestinians children while defending themselves, wouldn't the situation just get worse?
Jafar Farah at 2:21pm ET
I hope that no forces will kill children. I hope that any forces, including U.N. forces, will protect civilians and protect their right to protest. I expect that also the Israeli forces will not use violence and live bullets, and we have live bullets here against civilians. Also if they use stones and any way of expressing themselves, it's not war. War is when both sides use guns and war machines. Palestinians are using mainly, especially in Israel, stones.
Patrick from safezone.net at 2:21pm ET
As I understand it, the language of the charter of the P.L.O. calls for the literal destruction of Israel. How can there be peace when a neighboring state has, as part of its written code of existence, the call for the destruction of a nation?
Jafar Farah at 2:24pm ET
Nobody can destroy a nation. We know that in history some nations tried that, and we know that the result in the end was that the whole of Europe was destroyed, actually. I didn't hear Arafat, the chairman of the P.L.O. or the Palestinian Authority, talking about destroying Israel. It's mainly rumors that get out from Israeli right-wing groups. They want to prove that there is no partner for peace in the Middle East. But I have to tell everybody, Israel exists in the Middle East. And the only partners that the Israelis can find will be the Palestinians and the Arabs in the area. Israel will not be moved to Europe or the United States. Israel will remain in the Middle East, and Israelis will have to respect the people in the area and to be part of the Middle East and not to think all the time about using force. Because in the end we will arrive at another war, and we will destroy all of us here. It's not a problem for part of the countries to have chemical and nuclear weapon in the next twenty years. We hope that nobody will use this kind of weapon to destroy any country in the area, including not to destroy people, like the Iraqi people or the Lebanese or the Palestinians, and also not the Jewish people. I know that Arafat doesn't think about destroying Israel. I know it personally. But I hope that the Israeli leaders will understand that they will have to deal in respect with the Palestinians that were suffering since 52 years.
Moderator at 2:25pm ET
When the shooting stops, how will these neighbors, colleagues and friends from both sides be able to resume normal lives and relationships involving one another?
Jafar Farah at 2:27pm ET
It will be very hard. You have to remember in Israel, thirteen families were destroyed almost: one of their important people in their life was killed by policemen [whose] job was supposed to be to protect them. And in the Palestinian territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, there are also about 100 families that lost their important people in their life.
Usually after a situation like this I always remember Europe. Only about sixty years ago, the Europeans destroyed each other. They make the Holocaust with millions of people. And look today. Today they open borders, they make one union. Look at the relationship between Israel and the Israelis and the Germans, the relationship between Jewish people and the German people.
There is a need to invest in having real peace and justice. When you have peace and justice for the people in the area, I think we will have the chance to build a better future. In any case, everybody has to remember that nobody will move from here. We will stay in the Middle East, and we will have to find a way to build a better future.
Kamal at 2:27pm ET
Can you point to some of the practices that make Israel a "selective democracy"?
Jafar Farah at 2:30pm ET
Yes, Israel is a democracy for the Jewish people. Israel identifies itself as a Jewish country. When you say "Jewish country" and you just don't think about twenty percent of the population, you have to discriminate [against] the twenty percent of the population. Israel is one of the countries that has high tech and has a very strong economy, much more strong than any country in the Middle East (I'm not talking about the Gulf countries, but the Middle East countries).
But the Palestinian minority inside Israel still has something called "unrecognized villages." Since 1948 until today the government refuses to give them recognition. There are 36 unrecognized villages in the Negev. We discussed with the government issues like giving water to the houses of these people-- water! There's about 22 thousand houses that the government refuses to give its permission. The meaning of that is that [there are] 22 thousand families, without [water or] electricity. This is the meaning of that. There are villages and cities without streets.
Now I will tell you about discrimination in employment. Out of 50 thousand governmental workers in Israel, only five percent are Arabs. Only 6.3 percent of the students in Israel are Arabs, Palestinians. Out of about five thousand professors in universities, there is only 40 Arab professors.
So this whole discrimination, you know, leads to a situation that the Palestinians in Israel feel that this country deals with us as strangers, not as guests, not as partners. And the last events in the last ten days, when we lost 13 people that were shot by policemen, show that the way of thinking in the government that they are dealing with enemies, not with citizens that pay taxes. And we have to change it. And I think only Palestinians and Jews can change it together.
Moderator at 2:33pm ET
Dr. Mordechai Bar-On is now joining us online.
Moderator at 2:33pm ET
The phenomenon of Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs fighting each other is a relatively recent one. What has forced these conflicts to the surface?
Dr. Mordechai Bar-On at 2:38pm ET
Well, it's not new in the sense that there was a war head-on between all of us until 1948. After 1948 there was an Israeli state, and those who remained behind of course couldn't continue to fight. And at the beginning they were just suppressed. But over the last fifty years there was an attempt on both sides to normalize and to find ways of living in the same state. The eruption today is a complex question because in the background is what I guess my colleague said, from what I understood in the last few sentences, namely that there was a constant state of discrimination [against] the Arab minority in the country, in the political and economic fields. and that accumulated into the somewhat oppressed but obvious level of rage. The last eruption had to do with the overall Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not necessarily with the Israeli citizens, because it erupted on the events in the Holy Mount. And there are the controversy between the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian people at large. However, it was like putting a torch on a bale of concentrated anger, which had to do with the protracted discrimination of the Israeli Arabs. I think that's the way that it has to be understood.
Dwight from etn.com at 2:39pm ET
Most people assume that all Palestinians are Muslim ...but what about the Palestinian Christians? What is their role and position? Do they have enough influence to help broker a peace?
Jafar Farah at 2:43pm ET
I was born a Christian. For me, it's not so important a difference between Christians and Muslims. I think everybody has the right to believe in whatever we want and we choose to. Part of us are born to that and live with that all of his or her life. The Christians are part of the same problem [as that faced by other Palestinians], like my mother's village, called Eilobon. It was a Christian village in Galilee. During the '48 war the citizens of this village became refugees and they were sent to Lebanon. They have been there in refugee camps. And Birem and Ikreth are Christian villages that were destroyed and their citizens became refugees inside Israel until today. And the Israeli government refused to respect a court decision-- an Israeli court decision-- to let them go back to their villages.
For me it was important to tell Mr. Sharon that it's provocative to go to the Holy Mount and to demand this holy place for the [Jews]. I was trying all my best during this week that also Palestinians respect holy places for the Jewish people, like the old synagogues in Shfarem and in Pkian. It was important for me and for the leaders of the Palestinians inside Israel to protect these synagogues. Also the Islamic movement asked the Palestinian Authority to rebuild Joseph's grave in Nablus. So it's important that all of us-- because it's holy places for all of us, for three religions-- it's important to protect and respect the holy places for everybody. Ariel Sharon's visit-- imagine that Yasser Arafat or [another Palestinian leader] will decide to come to the Wailing Wall, the Western Wall, that is a holy place for the Jews, and come there and demand it, to say, "This is for us." I have to mention here that for part of the Jewish groups, especially the women, it's forbidden to pray there.
Dr. Mordechai Bar-On at 2:44pm ET
Actually, they can pray there but it's a special section where they pray.
Dr. Mordechai Bar-On at 2:45pm ET
The role of religion in this whole conflict over the last few years, I would say, certainly over the last events, is utterly misunderstood by many people. It is not a religious war. The religion here is not the matter. It is basically a clash between two nations. Therefore, the Christians, the Muslims share the same feelings as to what happens to their people, and among the Jews, those who are religious, many of them interpret or crystallize their national feeling in religious terms. That is the case in many places around the world. Those Arab Palestinians who happen to be devout Muslim, interpret their national feeling also in religious terms. But the majority of Israeli Arabs are either nor religious at all or not extremely religious. They have the same national feelings but interpret in secular terms. The conflict is not religious.
Dr. Mordechai Bar-On at 2:49pm ET
So whether you are a Christian Arab or a Muslim Arab, your reaction to the way the conflict develops, to the way the Jews behave to you, would be the same, although worded in different metaphors, in different symbolic language. That's exactly what I understood from my good friend here, when he said that he felt about the Holy Mount as much as his Muslim brothers, although he is Christian. And I can understand it fully.
Let me make a side remark here, although I don't know whether you want to go into this problem. But one must understand that while I condemn the visit of Sharon-- it was a foolish and evil step to take-- one has to understand that what happened after that was not only due to that [visit]. There were many other elements that merged into it. It was a spark. But the Palestinian reactions today are an attempt on their part to reassert their independence. My explanation is very different than just to say that they became angry just because Sharon went to the Holy Mount.
M.L.Wheeler from dialup.mindspring.com at 2:50pm ET
Peace negotiations had progressed to the point that there was discussion of Jerusalem being a dual capital for both countries. That sounds like progress. Why protest peace negotiations that are making progress on resolving differences?
Jafar Farah at 2:54pm ET
There was no progress in the question of Jerusalem. There was progress in the question of refugees [although] it wasn't a solution for the refugee problem. At the same time you have to understand that Barak doesn't have a majority in the parliament to pass any agreement. And at the same time, the right wing were passing a law that will make it impossible to pass any agreement in referendum, because they pass a law, at least in the first stage in the Israeli Knesset, that the referendum will need a special majority, that it will be about 65% of the people who will participate in the referendum.
So the situation was, before Camp David, that the whole negotiation was stuck, and the frustration in the Palestinian side was clear. And since [the time of] Bibi Netanyahu's government until now, we didn't have real changes in the Palestinian street, that the people can say that there is a peace-government. Barak made the whole mistakes since the first day after the election. He gets 95% of the Arabs citizens to vote for him, and after the election he refused to take the Arab members of the Knesset to be part of his government, or to ask them to support the government. He chose to take four right-wing parties, that their main issues are against peace. So there was no chance to achieve peace in these conditions. At the same time, Barak's government went on with building new houses and settlements in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, especially the West Bank.
Dr. Mordechai Bar-On at 2:56pm ET
I will in a moment explain the way I see it. But just one short reaction to what my friend said here, I think that his comment about Barak not asking the Palestinians to join the government was correct, but it brings us back to the internal question of Israeli Arabs. And that's as we said before, a separate question, we should've gone a little deeper into that, but I want to address the question that we were asked.
To my mind much lies in the way the Oslo Agreements were concluded and implemented. In Oslo, there was a bargain that was not spelled clearly and specifically, but was the basis of it. And the bargain was that Israel will gradually lead the Palestinians into statehood in at least a large part, or I would say a very large part, of the territories of the occupied area. And the Palestinians will stop their warfare against Israelis, and by receiving gradually sovereign powers including police and armed forces, they would try to control their own people and prevent violence and give the Israelis security.
However, there were two flaws in this. The first flaw was there was a basic asymmetry, that the preferment of the Palestinian aspirations was to come only after some stages, after three years negotiating and finally after five years, statehood. The Israelis expected to receive a full waiver of violence immediately. The other one was that the Israeli side dragged because it was in the middle of the Netanyahu government, and even Rabin himself kind of procrastinated on implementing not the agreements but the spirit of them. Therefore, the situation was created in which the Palestinians said, "Hey, we're not going to give up violence as a political tool, as long as our aspiration for statehood on most of the territories occupied will be fulfilled." Barak understood that. Unlike my friend, I think that the criticism against Barak is not totally justified. He made mistakes but I think that basically he understood that, and therefore plunged immediately into the final stage of negotiations.
At that stage, about a year ago or so, many of the Palestinians, in the Authority and among the people, felt that there is an unfair asymmetry here. They expected not to take any action and have to accept Israeli dictates, because Israelis are the occupiers and are there with their weapons and there's something unfair. In a way, Arafat felt at Camp David that he was dragged too much into concessions he didn't want to make, and actually looked for a way out-- from this situation, at least. Then came the freeze of the process, since Camp David. The only way to defrost the freeze was by unleashing a level of violence, whether it's stones or shooting or whatever the level was. But that was the only way to rattle the situation. And he was very successful in that.
Look at what happened. Clinton is coming, the Secretary General is here, the foreign secretaries of half a dozen states are here. That means he achieved what he wanted. I don't say this as a blame against him. The only question is whether he will stop now and try to reap the political advantages that he gained, and on what level of concessions does he think that he can meet the minimal requirements of Israelis.
Moderator at 3:02pm ET
Gentlemen, do you have any final thoughts to share?
Jafar Farah at 3:04pm ET
I hope that we will have a situation that will go out from this disaster that was yesterday, to go onto a solution of justice and peace. I hope that the Palestinian refugees will have hope to build their houses and their country, and that everybody in this area will have his rights. And I mean in that also the Jewish and the Palestinians, and also people in the Arab countries around and in the area that live under dictatorships. The solution for the Palestinian problem will let the people of the Arab countries deal with their interior issues, like poverty and democracy for example. And I hope that the six million Jews here and the six million Palestinians will stop keeping all the people in the world occupied with this problem.
Dr. Mordechai Bar-On at 3:06pm ET
With regard to the internal problem of the Israeli Palestinians, those were equal citizens, the time has come for the Israeli people and its elite, whoever is in government, to make a revolutionary change in our attitude, and give them real, full citizenship and equality, and allow them the rate of development that is given to the Jewish side. However, I think that my Palestinian colleagues should understand that while I fully appreciate their right to a solidarity with their brethren across the green line, and their right to demonstrate as much as others demonstrate, even sometimes in enraged form, that there is a limit to rage also. Namely that they have to understand that there are forms of demonstrations which are permitted, which are normative, and there are others which are not permitted. To destroy private property is not a demonstration which is not legitimate. They have to remember that they will be a part of a state in which the Jews will be the majority.
As to the general conflict with the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, I believe that Israel has to understand and accept fully the fact that a Palestinian state is inevitable, and instead of fighting it to encourage it to a degree in which Palestinian sovereignty will also mean Palestinian responsibility in the use of weapons and violence. Therefore I think that violence has to subside now, and give a chance for reason to come back and to the parties to come back to the negotiating table, and find the formula for a final status solution, which must include the basic concept of this country being a country for two states, one Israeli Jewish, and one Palestinian Arab. And that Jerusalem in this respect can serve as the capital of both nations.
Moderator at 3:08pm ET
Thank you for joining us, Dr. Bar-On