Culture Conversations: Top NYC Black chefs talk about the evolution of food and identity

ABC News' Byron Pitts sat down with two renowned New York City Black chefs as part of the ongoing series "Culture Conversations."

Marcus Samuelsson, the creator of Red Rooster, Hav & Mar and other New York City restaurants, and Angie Kingston, the co-owner of Thymeless Catering, said many Black chefs have used their work to promote Black culture.

BYRON PITTS: So we're going to talk about food and where it sort of intersects with culture and activism.

I like this idea that in thinking about food and the ingredients and the salt and pepper, that what I hear you say is that one of the ingredients is intentionality.

MARCUS SAMUELSSON: I remember the call I got around 2000 from Maya Angelou.

She had summoned us. I was super nervous to enter a space where there were so many incredible Black icons. And she says we're going to create a change in Harlem. All of you guys need to move your businesses or do something here. Marcus, you can cook, you should open a restaurant.

Eight years later, that's Red Rooster.

PITTS: It reminds me of the legendary stories about Pascal's restaurant in Atlanta. It was a gathering place for all of the Black leadership would safely gather to strategize and be intentional. How do you two know each other?

ANGIE KINGSTON: When Red Rooster opened, the only department that was open was pastry.

So I applied to work pastry. And one of the things actually that I vividly remember that shocked me a little was you [Samuelsson] were in person, you were at the restaurant, [and] you were on the line. And I had never been in a space where the owner of the restaurant was front and present.

I remember one day, I believe you made staff a meal, and I just remember thinking, "Wow." Like, it's so amazing that you're so attached to this place that you would be here all the time.

PITTS: I would imagine you just being of a different generation at a certain age that wasn't perhaps what you always did or certainly wasn't always easy. How did you get to the space in which you decided this is all in that I'm showing up as that guy every single time?

SAMUELSSON: I couldn't do it alone. I come from a tribe. My parents, my mentors, [and] the chefs before me. So, anyone who says "I'm self-made, I did this." I'm almost like, You're lonely. You got this long. I'm a representative of about 100 people.

PITTS: Part of what I hear you both say reminds me of a conversation that I had years ago with John Lewis, about the success of the civil rights movement, and I asked him, "What are potentially some of the modern-day weapons people can use to be successful in injustice and civil rights?" He says, "Oh, same weapon as before. Excellence." People will accept eventually who you are, what you're there for and that it led you to your activism.

KINGSTON: I'm the director of events for a nonprofit called Black Chef Movement. And Black Chef movement was born out of protests. So when the pandemic happened and the George Floyd protests erupted, a college friend of mine was like, "How do we help?" And so we turn to food. And so we started to prepare food for the protesters.

So when I'm preparing a meal and I'm serving it in a community where I've been told, "Thank you, without this, I don't know how I will have eaten tonight." That's a different kind of joy, but it is joy.

PITTS: Who knew I got an Uber to go to a beautiful New York City restaurant to talk to two chefs, and I met two activists.

SAMUELSSON: I think food has always been a way to gather, and I think that's something that we talked put up. The first part here was we're going to lead with joy.

PITTS: And my waistline confirms I've been to a lot of restaurants in my lifetime, but I've never seen that.

SAMUELSSON: When I was coming up in the kitchen world, I never saw people of color. I never saw women. So that journey started with Red Rooster. I said, "I'm going to open up, open [the] kitchen so people see who does the work."

That's going to be a place that Black excellence can thrive. And when we opened Hav & Mar [that] was we get [to] take that one step further and focusing on women of color in a leadership position.

[That was] the best decision I've ever done. The only thing I'm upset about, I should have done it earlier.

PITTS: But does that kind of success come at a price? Who are you now creating for? Is it for Black folks? Is it for the approval of white folks?

SAMUELSSON: You have to have arrogance on this side and be humble on this side. And that when they the best work is when they clash. But you've got to never take away your arrogance because that's how you create. And as Black people, very often food is a language that the writing community didn't change. So I was creating very often stuff from an African space with that the language of the writing community. You didn't even know what that was, right?

So maybe we have to label it in order for people to understand it. Open up that room and not only get more Black chefs, but also get larger on the writing side because we need the writers to kind of like transport our content out there to understand what we're doing.

PITTS: Here's this notion that like how your success, it seems to me, in some ways comes out of struggle. Like someone told you "no," and forced you to go find "yes." Your success while there is also struggle, comes out of the spirit of abundance.

And there's always going to be struggle. But there are people whose success can come out of abundance. Like [Marcus] was told, "No." [Angie was] told, "Yeah, baby." It's different. But it's on the same path.

SAMUELSSON: Yes. But it also shows that we're going in the right direction. I hear that story. How many times [Angie] could have called her friend or girlfriend or her parents and said, "I'm out, I'm leaving." I know you couldn't call your parents.

KINGSTON: Um hum. Not my mom. Not my mom.

SAMUELSSON: To me, the easiest way out would have been this, not for me. I'm gonna be stuck in there and there is a reward. Something beyond the hidden paycheck, right?

But you did it and that's, well, you know, I can tell you stuff as they're searching, and that's what you continue to do.

KINGSTON: Agreed. Yes. From your lips to God's ears.